Log for #openttd on 29th January 2012:
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00:01:39  <Eddi|zuHause> why are there some glyphs in mono.png that extend over the sprite border?
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00:21:23  <Terkhen> good night
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00:33:08  <Eddi|zuHause> how do you draw an 8 with 4x3 pixels?
00:36:18  <andythenorth> you don't
00:36:28  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:37:13  <__ln__> as '10o'
00:37:43  <__ln__> or '010'
00:40:00  <supermop> a solid rectangle?
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00:41:25  <Ammler> 1px more filled as 0
00:42:19  <__ln__> than
00:45:01  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- suggestions?
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00:55:36  <frosch123> night
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00:55:53  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: pretty nice
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01:04:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r23869 /trunk/src/lang/french.txt: -Fix (r23865): WT3 validation failure
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02:54:53  <Rhamphoryncus> A thought: I'm using tropical refurbishment and aviators with most of the settings turned up to hard, and 50 years in money is NOT unlimited.  Upgrading 20 planes at 5.5 million each, that'll take way more than I have.  Plowing the ocean is extremely expensive too.  It's everything else that fails to keep up.  Moving dirt is fine, bridges are practically free, laying track is practically free
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02:56:20  <Rhamphoryncus> Bridges are so annoyingly cheap that you only ever build 1.  Well, I have a newgrf to make the suspension bridges better, so I use one of them too (but it's still essentially free)
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02:56:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i agree, bridges are way too cheap
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02:57:11  <Rhamphoryncus> too cheap and virtually the same prices
02:57:28  <Rhamphoryncus> They should be spread out a great deal so you only buy what you need
02:58:45  <Rhamphoryncus> I have other thoughts along the same vein, but I'm going to shut up before I start coding a massive newgrf :P
03:01:13  <Eddi|zuHause> well, changing bridge costs would be a relatively small newgrf :)
03:01:45  <Eddi|zuHause> you can even start by editing an existing newgrf, like TBRS
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03:13:01  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, but I want to overhaul all the track types too, including monorail and maglev *g*
03:16:18  <Eddi|zuHause> you can work on NuTracks as well
03:16:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and there are other track sets out there
03:20:16  <Asteconn> I do like NuTracks
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06:55:05  <xiong> After several weeks of play I still can't be sure of the simplest thing in chillpack/cargodist. Is the patch trying to adjust cargo to my capacity? Or should I be trying to adjust capacity to cargo on offer? I'm getting a lot of bizarre results.
06:57:35  <Rhamphoryncus> cargodist is supposed to redistribute to your capacity
06:58:03  <Rhamphoryncus> But capacity is a pretty vague concept.  It uses some heuristics to guess at it
06:58:46  <Elukka> cargodist can't change how cargo is generated
06:59:02  <Elukka> you'll get x passengers and they want to get to destinations you have active routes to
06:59:15  <Elukka> you'll still get the same amount of passengers whether you have one or a dozen destinations
06:59:36  <Elukka> you should still try to transport all of it
07:00:14  <Elukka> i'd prefer YACD since it does affect cargo generation, but it has some crippling issues and apparently there's no will to continue development...
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07:36:36  <RhamphMobile> blah.  internet isn't cooperating.
07:38:20  <RhamphMobile> Hah.  Told the router to reboot and 20 seconds later it's still giving me packets.
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07:44:15  <RhamphMobile> So I'm trying to figure out: the next/prev/first attributes of Vehicles, is that for trains and articulated RVs to list all their wagons?
07:49:38  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
07:50:34  <RhamphMobile> Thanks.  Is every wagon involved in a shared order list, or just the first ones?
07:51:18  <Eddi|zuHause> only front vehicles have orders (and lots of other things)
07:52:18  <RhamphMobile> Alright, so subverting the shared list to be my sorted list should be fine.
07:52:42  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
07:53:39  <Elukka> my lizard has a tendency of failing his jumps if he's being watched
07:53:50  <Elukka> i guess that's kinda like having someone watching over your shoulder when you're trying to do something on your computer...
07:54:53  <RhamphMobile> Vehicle::FirstShared() is what's throwing me off.  It implies every wagon has ->orders.list set (when shared).
08:00:07  <Eddi|zuHause> most of these things are ensured to be only ever called/accessed for front vehicles
08:00:35  <RhamphMobile> I was thinking that.
08:01:34  <RhamphMobile> Any reason why most of that is in Vehicle rather than OrderList?  Historical artifact?
08:01:51  <Eddi|zuHause> probably
08:03:30  <RhamphMobile> I may just start another branch so I can refactor it before doing my scheduling stuff.
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08:23:57  <sc20ka> hi....
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08:33:24  <Eddi|zuHause> so... now i (think i) have the glyphs in the grf, but i have no good way to input them into a text box in the game
08:33:57  <Eddi|zuHause> normally i would use KCharSelect and paste them, but the game has no paste option
08:33:58  <Rubidium> use the vehicle names
08:34:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that involves recompiling the grf (again) :)
08:35:06  <Rubidium> then make a (much) smaller test GRF?
08:36:45  <xiong> Elukka, thanks. I still see weird things, though. I have a number of stations -- local bus stops -- that don't seem to have enough buildings to generate much cargo; yet pax are waiting. I double or quadruple the service to that stop and a year later, hundreds of pax are stacked up desperate to go anywhere.
08:37:56  <Elukka> hm. that's odd
08:38:42  <Elukka> the only time i've seen passengers that want to go anywhere is when i've messed up my services or there's been some kind of minor bug/fuckup but that sorts itself out before too long
08:38:54  <Elukka> it's possible there's some sort of bug in the older version of the patch in chillpack, i haven't played that
08:38:55  <Rubidium> or decompile with grfcodec, edit and recompile?
08:39:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i should rewrite my script to generate NFO...
08:50:51  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... something seems wrong with the offset
08:56:50  <planetmaker> moin
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09:31:53  <andythenorth> morning
09:32:08  <RhamphMobile> G'morning.
09:33:23  <planetmaker> salut andythenorth
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09:43:03  <andythenorth> in an ideal grf-topia word, what's a nice way to specify a vehicle set
09:43:10  <andythenorth> e.g. vehicles + their properties
09:43:25  <andythenorth> text file?  web form interface?  spreadsheet?
09:43:48  <andythenorth> an approximate clone of the nml property{} structure?
09:43:57  <planetmaker> what's un-ideal about the nml way?
09:44:11  <andythenorth> only 2 things
09:44:25  <andythenorth> 1. it doesn't expose the values that I can use as python
09:44:51  <andythenorth> 2. more furniture than is ideal - there's some formatting required
09:44:58  <planetmaker> it simply is not python. It's a language written in python
09:45:06  <andythenorth> I know
09:45:15  <planetmaker> and formatting is always required
09:45:22  <planetmaker> it's just a matter of what kind of formatting
09:45:42  <andythenorth> it's a relative scale: spreadsheet < nml property block
09:45:51  <andythenorth> web form < nml property block
09:46:20  <planetmaker> honestly: I challenge that that comparison constitutes a statement which evaluates to true
09:46:32  <andythenorth> basically I could rephrase my question as 'should I learn how to use the tsv module in python?' :P
09:47:12  <Terkhen> good morning
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09:47:16  <planetmaker> hello Terkhen
09:47:22  <andythenorth> hols
09:47:28  <andythenorth> ¿
09:47:29  <andythenorth> hola
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10:03:43  <andythenorth> hmm
10:03:44  <RhamphMobile> Stupid phone.
10:04:06  <andythenorth> cpp constants are still kind of cool
10:04:59  <andythenorth> but mixing cpp and python is ... odd
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10:20:41  <andythenorth> hmm
10:20:51  <andythenorth> are trailers for trucks primary or subsidiary objects?
10:21:10  <andythenorth> i.e. should I put them in the master list of vehicles and render them from there?
10:21:18  <andythenorth> or only render them when the lead truck is rendered?
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10:22:07  <RhamphMobile> Is this a general question or one pertaining to code as written?
10:22:23  <andythenorth> I think it's me thinking out loud
10:22:28  <andythenorth> but the second
10:23:23  <RhamphMobile> Heh.  Well I was going to mention that some of the articulated trams I was using are 4 or 5 tiles long.
10:23:45  <andythenorth> so the question is - should the trailing vehicles be defined in the root scope, with the lead vehicle
10:23:51  <andythenorth> or are they scoped to the lead vehicle
10:23:55  <andythenorth> currently the second
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10:26:38  <andythenorth> it makes almost no difference except for readability
10:26:47  <RhamphMobile> I would assume this influences the earliest filtering for what's on screen... but you could also expand the lead truck for this purpose.
10:26:57  <andythenorth> makes no difference to the game at all
10:27:05  <andythenorth> pure compile-time question
10:27:16  <andythenorth> one way is more intricate...the other simpler... but also more magical
10:27:21  <RhamphMobile> ahh
10:28:14  <andythenorth> the more intricate method means more template code, but also less arsing about accessing other scopes
10:29:16  <andythenorth> it's basically a standard problem of 'wide and flat' or 'deep and nested'
10:29:31  <andythenorth> wide and flat means more lookups between objects, deep and nested means more traversal of hierarchy
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10:29:59  <Eddi|zuHause> since i have a table, it's wide and flat there
10:30:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the hierarchy is defined by some magic naming convention
10:31:43  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not particularly pretty, but very much functional.
10:31:43  <andythenorth> so you have (equivalent of) one big flat dict for all vehicles?
10:31:52  <andythenorth> and use a naming convention to map associated vehicles?
10:31:54  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
10:32:07  <andythenorth> makes sense
10:32:30  <andythenorth> I have (equivalent of) one big flat dict for all trucks, but the trailers are inside the dict for each truck
10:32:39  <andythenorth> it seems to make no real difference
10:32:47  <andythenorth> probably a matter of taste
10:33:19  <andythenorth> I have the naming convention too so it could be changed to flat
10:33:21  <Eddi|zuHause> that's fine for dicts, but not really nice for a table
10:33:40  <RhamphMobile> Would you be filtering based on names if it was flat?
10:35:31  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the trailers are slightly auto-magically created in my case
10:35:52  <andythenorth> if they were 100% defined manually flat would be better I guess
10:36:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's probably fine for trucks. articulation of trains needs to be slightly more flexible, i guess
10:36:45  <andythenorth> yup
10:36:55  <andythenorth> so the templating I've got would work both ways
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10:37:00  <andythenorth> which is important to me
10:37:10  <andythenorth> it's flexible in that regard
10:37:10  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't usually have driven heads at the other end or stuff
10:38:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you're totally overthinking this
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10:41:14  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you think? :)
10:41:23  * andythenorth overthinks occasionally? :P
10:43:17  <RhamphMobile> Only occasionally?  Amateur.  ;)
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10:44:06  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I see 'overthinking' and raise you 'code generator' :D
10:44:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: really, i wrote this thing in more or less one day, and thought "ah well... good enough i suppose"
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10:46:21  <andythenorth> hmm
10:46:40  <andythenorth> 'make a nice truck set' 'obsess about templating' /s
10:46:43  <andythenorth> :P
10:46:44  <Eddi|zuHause> and for like two weeks now you discuss X framework and Y language
10:47:33  <andythenorth> the actual work is quite minimal
10:47:45  <andythenorth> it's rather over-shadowed by the noise I make :P
10:48:04  <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: what's up with the 32bpp thing in CETS?
10:48:10  <RhamphMobile> andythenorth: I see your code generator and raise you a static/dynamic programming language intended to have the performance of C and the ease of Python.  And superior threading than both.
10:48:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: one of oberhÃŒmers random outbursts?
10:48:36  <Elukka> i guess :P
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10:49:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: it's not like we never discussed this before
10:49:16  <Elukka> we did, but what's going on now?
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11:01:06  <Rubidium> RhamphMobile: LabView? ;)
11:02:39  <RhamphMobile> Found an odd tidbit: when loading an old savegame there already is a v->orders.list, not just an orders.old, but the orders.list gets replaced and forgotten.  Leaked I assume.  Or I screwed something up.  Regression test isn't stopping anymore...
11:03:04  <Rubidium> RhamphMobile: ever heard of unions?
11:03:12  <Rubidium> RhamphMobile: if not, look them up
11:03:19  <RhamphMobile> Fortunately I'm not familiar with LabView so I can ignore that.  ;)
11:03:27  <RhamphMobile> eh?  Of course I have.
11:03:58  <Rubidium> well, v->orders is a union
11:04:11  <RhamphMobile> fuck.  :P
11:06:26  <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: i still think sprites are much better to draw with the essentially unlimited palette of 32bpp, but doing both 8 and 32 seems like a bit of a bother
11:06:42  <Rubidium> last time I checked OpenTTD did leak less than the external libraries
11:08:59  <RhamphMobile> Ignore what I said.  Being a union invalidates it.
11:11:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: well, the important point would be that the 8bpp versions would be automatically converted
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11:11:52  <Eddi|zuHause> and the newgrf would (try to) enforce 32bpp blitter
11:12:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so the average user wouldn't see the 8bpp sprites
11:12:44  <Elukka> what does auto-converting actually do?
11:12:59  <Elukka> it can't come up with new color info out of nowhere, so... does it just change existing colors to something closer to reality?
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11:48:04  <Rhamphoryncus> Oh good, I can remove that quit message
11:55:24  <Rhamphoryncus> Found why it kept crashing and hanging and whatnot.  Refactored all the assignments to v->orders.list so it'd be in one place rather than 10, but forgot to put it in that one place.  FUUUUUU...
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12:36:19  <Rhamphoryncus> Oi, took me an hour to refresh my memory on the fine print of sequence-points and such
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12:55:00  <TinoDidriksen> That got important to know? When in doubt, split into's usually more readable that way anyway.
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13:04:53  <Rhamphoryncus> 						Order *old = v->orders.old;  // OrderList() overwrites this, so save a copy
13:04:53  <Rhamphoryncus> 						mapping[old] = new OrderList(v->orders.old, v);
13:05:14  <Rhamphoryncus> I just blanked on the rules and I don't want to make a decision when I don't know.
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13:24:38  <Wolf01> hello o/
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13:29:00  <florian> hi. is it possible to store goods in vehicle stations, e.g. if theres a forest somewhere, transport it to a harbor via train, and from the harbor to another harbor (by ship of course)?
13:30:43  <florian> *it = wood, not the forest :D
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13:31:14  <Terkhen> hi florian
13:31:16  <Terkhen> <---
13:32:34  <florian> thanks
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13:35:38  <Terkhen> yw
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13:50:35  <Mazur> I made a new version of the FIRS 0.7.0 cargo flow chart, see the blog if you're interested.
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13:53:09  <andythenorth> Mazur: blog?
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13:57:33  <Mazur> Yes.
13:57:52  <Mazur>
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14:01:11  <andythenorth> Yexo: can I used numeric IDs with nml in articulated_part
14:01:12  <andythenorth> ?
14:01:17  <andythenorth> use / used /s
14:01:26  <Yexo> sure
14:01:43  <Yexo> you have to give each part a name, but you can additionally given them a numeric ID and use that in your code
14:02:05  <andythenorth> awesome
14:02:17  <andythenorth> numeric iterator instead of string concat
14:02:25  <andythenorth> it's about the same either way I guess though :)
14:06:15  <planetmaker> yes, numbers are so much better to read :-P
14:08:52  <andythenorth> could do an identifier
14:08:58  <andythenorth> same amount of code either way
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14:14:13  <xiong> I think there's positive feedback. There's a slight excess of demand at a feeder station and that piles up over time; by the time I notice it there are a few hundred pax standing around willing to go anywhere -- cash on the hoof. So I run more vehicles to that feeder stop from the local hub. That makes the feeder look better serviced than the main; so a greater fraction of pax are allocated to that route.
14:15:36  *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:16:46  <xiong> If the main intercity line is long and slow, its monthly capacity is much less than that of the feeder. Pax continue to demand the feeder and if I'm foolish enough to lay on even more cheap local service, they take it and want more.
14:17:06  <andythenorth> Yexo: is this valid nml?
14:17:11  <Alberth> xiong: what's the idea of this long monologue?
14:17:28  <xiong> Alberth, What part of it is unclear?
14:18:01  <Alberth> it is unclear what idea you are trying to bring across
14:18:04  <Yexo> andythenorth: sure
14:18:07  <Alberth> (at least, to me)
14:18:38  <andythenorth> thanks
14:18:41  <xiong> I'm less interested in airing my opinion than in comparing the opinions of others.
14:18:48  <Hirundo> andythenorth: Seems valid, though without any purpose
14:18:53  <andythenorth> indeed
14:18:59  <andythenorth> the purpose is to *not* build any trailers
14:19:13  <Chris_Booth> hi all
14:19:15  <Hirundo> There are easier ways to do that
14:19:22  <Alberth> hi Chris_Booth
14:19:28  <Yexo> Hirundo: this is easy to template
14:19:44  <andythenorth> I can write more conditions in the template.  Or fewer conditions.
14:19:45  <Yexo> on line 2 you put something if you want it articulated, if nothing there it's not articulated
14:20:18  <andythenorth> fewer conditions = easier to read the template, as long as you don't mind lots of code that's doing equivalent of 'pass'
14:20:26  <xiong> You may just as well take it for granted, Alberth, that whatever I have to say in here these days, unless otherwise excepted, is in hopes of fishing for understanding of chillpack/cargodist. The existing docs are... not useful for play, although developers must be fascinated.
14:20:33  <andythenorth> btw, nml is fricking awesome to tempalte
14:20:38  <andythenorth> template /s
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14:21:47  * andythenorth is 100% converted to joys of nml
14:22:01  <andythenorth> although I won't 100% convert my sets - nfo is like brain training
14:22:44  <xiong> I conjecture that the solution to the unfortunate feeder oversupply is *not* to service it but to increase main service at the corresponding hub, tilting the distribution that way instead.
14:23:36  <andythenorth> if an rv has an articulated switch but no trailers, will it be able to use drive-in road stops?
14:23:49  <Hirundo> yes
14:24:16  <Hirundo> how would the game even detect, that there is an 'articulated switch' ?
14:24:33  <Alberth> xiong: sorry, no idea, I never played chillpack, and certainly not in the wayy you do
14:24:34  <Hirundo> as long as it returns 'no art. parts' it doesn't matter
14:24:38  <andythenorth> because the bit is enabled in special flags?
14:24:44  <andythenorth> in cb flags sorry
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14:25:09  <andythenorth> I'm hazy on how nml sets those bits
14:25:16  <Alberth> xiong: I just do test-playing for small amounts of time
14:25:30  <xiong> Yes; it may take much patience to find out about this.
14:26:08  <xiong> Yes; it does seem that people spend more time modifying the game than learning how to play it. I'm sure there must be good players but they don't discuss it much.
14:27:42  <andythenorth> Hirundo: thanks
14:28:25  <Alberth> xiong: they are not here, I think. They mostly play MP I think
14:28:49  <xiong> You're probably right, Alberth.
14:29:06  <Alberth> (or SP at home without Internet :p )
14:29:51  <Chris_Booth> does anyone know how long 30 game years is in hours?
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14:30:12  <andythenorth> is there any case where extra_callback_info1 will contain 0?
14:30:34  <andythenorth> I am relying on 0 not being found atm
14:30:43  <andythenorth> sorry - context is articulated_part
14:32:11  <Hirundo> it starts at 1
14:32:32  <andythenorth> am I a fool to rely on that? :)
14:32:33  <Hirundo> so presuming you don't try to add enough parts to overflow the counter, you're safe :-
14:33:04  <Alberth> Chris_Booth: you can compute the answer from the answer in the FAQ:
14:33:30  <Hirundo> FWIW the number of parts is limited to 100
14:33:40  <andythenorth> 3 will be sufficient here :D
14:33:44  <Alberth> QED people don't read FAQs  :)
14:34:18  <Chris_Booth> thanks Alberth. I would not have thought to look in the FAQ
14:34:36  * andythenorth converts numeric ids to nml identifiers
14:34:39  <andythenorth> for readability :P
14:34:49  <andythenorth> when debugging :p
14:34:55  <xiong> Chris_Booth, Don't forget you can halve that time in fast-forward.
14:35:56  <Chris_Booth> xiong: not in a server game
14:36:21  <Chris_Booth> I was just trying to work out when my final Loco would come out
14:36:43  <Chris_Booth> as it turns out is 6.75 hours away
14:38:33  <Alberth> Chris_Booth: a search at the wiki didn't turn up that answer either?
14:39:28  <Chris_Booth> Alberth: I am to lazy to search
14:39:34  <andythenorth> meh
14:39:54  <andythenorth> trailers before or after the truck in the final nml file?
14:39:54  <Chris_Booth> see andy agrees
14:40:05  * andythenorth has too many meta questions to be a real developer
14:41:07  <Alberth> perhaps you should develop unreal :)
14:42:43  <Hirundo> andythenorth: You should read
14:42:59  <Hirundo> I feel sometimes you write much code to avoid writing code
14:43:31  <Hirundo> Though arguably, code that writes code for you is more fun to write :-)
14:43:48  <andythenorth> Hirundo: interestingly, in my day job, I'm the duct tape programmer
14:44:00  <andythenorth> I refuse to learn how to develop properly, and hack in ancient cms
14:44:09  <andythenorth> and it works
14:44:14  <andythenorth> and my code ships faster and works
14:44:27  <andythenorth> but it's not scalable, maintainable, repeatable, and no-one else likes it :)
14:45:04  <andythenorth> ha
14:45:09  <Alberth> and your boss still allows you near the code?  :o
14:45:13  <andythenorth> who's the boss?
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14:45:46  * andythenorth started hiring real developers once real code was needed ;)
14:46:59  <SpComb> all problems in computer science can be solved by applying one more layer of abstraction
14:47:33  <Hirundo> except....
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14:54:44  <andythenorth> Hirundo: "code that writes code for you...more fun" :)  <- the main reason I'm on version 5 of BANDIT is that it's fun
14:54:53  <andythenorth> I've started to actually learn python
14:58:23  <andythenorth> it's about time
14:58:27  <andythenorth> I've been using it for 7 years :P
14:59:10  <Hirundo> using it for so long without learning it :o
14:59:35  <andythenorth> you can go a long way with for i in iterable: do stuff
14:59:45  <andythenorth> I skipped functions for 5 years
14:59:54  <andythenorth> I just wrote my first class this weekend :P
15:00:10  <Hirundo> "def foo(x): do stuff" isn't too hard either, I'd say
15:00:17  <andythenorth> no
15:00:24  <andythenorth> I just wrote code that didn't require it :)
15:00:41  <andythenorth> ships faster :P
15:00:52  <andythenorth> do less, ship on time
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15:05:11  <KasperVld> good afternoon
15:08:03  <andythenorth> asking what the best order for vehicles in an nml file is definitely bikeshedding the project :P
15:08:18  <andythenorth> especially as nml doesn't give a crap about the order when numeric IDs are used
15:09:58  <planetmaker> hi KasperVld
15:11:11  <Alberth> andythenorth: I didn't see anybody asking that :p
15:11:26  <andythenorth> 'twas me
15:11:44  <andythenorth> lack of sleep makes an alread-obsessive andythenorth even stranger :P
15:12:00  <andythenorth> I kind of actually do just talk to myself
15:12:55  <andythenorth> instead - maybe I try and ship something :p
15:13:10  <SpComb> hack hack hack ship
15:13:44  <andythenorth> hack hack hack delete hack delete hack hack delete hack
15:13:48  <Alberth> SpComb unfortunately, the other way around does not work ;)
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15:16:16  <Hirundo> andythenorth: defining ids before using them is always a safe bet
15:16:32  <andythenorth> that's good
15:16:36  * andythenorth has bet safely in that case
15:16:44  <andythenorth> hmm
15:16:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23870 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqbaselib.cpp: -Fix [FS#5004]: scripts with a bad comparator could lock up OpenTTD
15:16:52  <andythenorth> I kind of feel bad about not using the nml built-in here:
15:16:53  <andythenorth>         shorten_vehicle:                ${8 - properties.truck_length};
15:16:59  <andythenorth> but that code is so easy ^
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15:17:17  <SpComb> next someone writes an NML optimizer
15:17:29  <andythenorth> for speed or for ease?
15:17:37  <andythenorth> the ease side is pretty optimised
15:17:40  <SpComb> for teh compilerz
15:17:49  <Hirundo> I still have the idea of changing 'shorten_vehicle' to 'length' somewhere in my mind
15:17:53  <andythenorth> I keep trying to do stuff the long way, and finding there's a built in
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15:18:12  <andythenorth> whoever added 'disable default vehicles(range)' etc gets a prize
15:18:53  * Yexo points to Hirundo
15:19:01  <andythenorth> total win
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15:20:16  <Hirundo> FIRS should have a 'cookie' cargo :-)
15:20:31  <andythenorth> there's a spare slot
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15:20:35  <andythenorth> I think
15:21:13  <Hirundo> There's a bakery, right?
15:21:34  <Alberth> cookie cargo for the HQ !
15:22:37  <frosch123> hmm, so we need a special cargo flag which makes some of the cargo just vanish during transportation
15:22:59  <andythenorth> there's a grain mill
15:23:02  <andythenorth> near enough a bakery
15:23:39  <Hirundo> HQ acceptance is fixed afaik, though
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15:25:18  <andythenorth> indeed
15:25:30  <andythenorth> the acceptance of BEER at HQ is not possible :(
15:25:39  <TWerkhoven[l]> :(
15:26:25  <Hirundo> new objects should allow changing acceptance, also for default objects
15:26:49  <andythenorth> ho ho
15:26:53  * andythenorth has one more bit working again
15:27:42  <TWerkhoven[l]> one could always make a hq-expansion item which does accept beer, but needs to be placed adjacent (in a certain tile perhaps) to the hq?
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15:30:15  <Hirundo> That'd have to be an industry currently, it's the only item that can be built by player and accepts cargo
15:30:25  <planetmaker> Hirundo, default objects cannot be modified
15:30:30  <Hirundo> I know
15:30:51  <Hirundo> That can change, though
15:31:41  <planetmaker> yes. IMHO it should ;-)
15:32:00  <planetmaker> with some limitations maybe.
15:32:06  <planetmaker> we can't make HQ unavailable
15:32:40  <planetmaker> not sure about the other two, light houses and transmitters
15:33:35  <frosch123> don't forget the statue and bought land :p
15:34:04  <andythenorth> light houses should accept PAX!
15:34:05  <planetmaker> true :-)
15:34:42  <andythenorth> oh
15:34:53  <andythenorth> I think I kind of fixed everything :o
15:35:09  <Yexo> you can probably make the HQ accept beer by putting it in cargoslot 0
15:35:16  <Yexo> you might break other unexpected things however
15:35:24  <Yexo> s/might/will/ :p
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15:47:45  <frosch123> every house producing beer? :p
15:49:30  <Hirundo> that'd be realistic in the US thirties only
15:50:03  <Hirundo> well, twenties mostly
15:50:12  <Mazur> Eurpope farms and monasteries in the middles ages, I wager.
15:50:17  <Mazur> -p
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16:20:09  <TinoDidriksen> Transport Tycoon Medieval? Start out with ox carts and horseback couriers...
16:27:26  <andythenorth> what does nml do if a switch result references a block that doesn't exist (but the result will never be reached) ?
16:28:03  <planetmaker> complain
16:29:17  <andythenorth> k
16:29:24  <andythenorth> np
16:29:48  <andythenorth> incidentally nml should (if it doesn't already) have something like this in introduction
16:30:37  <andythenorth> "if you already know nfo, nml *is* easier.  However, whilst your knowledge of nfo will help you navigate the spec, a lot of what you learnt is required.  Trying to treat nml like nfo will cause you to over-complicate things"
16:31:30  <andythenorth> is required / isn't required /s
16:33:23  <andythenorth> NML = powerful meta language
16:33:30  <andythenorth> NML != new syntax for nFO
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16:48:18  <Mazur> Is there a way to go to a previous version of a blog post?  I accidentally deleted a lot while inserting a more tag.
16:50:45  <Ammler> google cache :-P
16:52:22  <planetmaker> does your browser back button work, Mazur ?
16:54:48  <TinoDidriksen> Some blog systems keep versions.
16:55:45  <Mazur> No. I was past that stage.
16:56:59  <Mazur> I sorta fixed it.
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19:35:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23871 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
19:35:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:35:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
19:35:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: estonian - 16 changes by artur
19:35:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 12 changes by telk5093
19:35:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 3 changes by Stabilitronas
19:35:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 1 changes by mantaray
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21:25:17  <Kromme> Hi ppl
21:25:50  <SmatZ> hi Kromme
21:26:07  <Kromme> I only got one quick question tbh, sorry 'bout that
21:26:28  <Kromme> I've downloaded some AI's last week, and upgraded to ottd-v1.2.0-beta3
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21:27:01  <Kromme> no problem, you'd think.. all my AI's suddenly blanked and stated corruption.. Except for IdleV1
21:27:27  <Kromme> any ideas how that could've happened?
21:28:25  <Kromme> and thanks for the extra zoomlevels, they sure make landscaping a lot easier :))
21:28:48  <SmatZ> :)
21:28:58  <SmatZ> what does "stated corruption" mean?
21:29:25  <Kromme> well, when I try to open/load them, they give me an errormsg, and they disable themselves
21:29:35  <Kromme> either that, or my ottd crashes
21:30:00  <SmatZ> if openttd crashes, you get instructions on how to open a bugreport :)
21:30:07  <SmatZ> what does the AI Debug window output?
21:30:24  <SmatZ> there should be a message with a backtrace where the AI crashed
21:30:31  <Kromme> The AI debugger pops up when it doesn't freeze, but it doesn't really give me all that much info to work with
21:30:49  <Kromme> gimme a minute, I'll try to CP some info here if you'v got some time
21:31:06  <Kromme> +e, somewhere
21:34:36  <Kromme> hmz, this is kind of freaky, for now they work on my system (no errors), but at my friends PC they still keep giving errors
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21:39:27  <Kromme> hm, they are crashing again.. I'll mail the authors as the debugwindow states :)
21:42:38  <Kromme> bedankt SmatZ :)
21:42:41  <Kromme> uhm, thanks
21:42:57  <Kromme> sorry, multiserver - multilang chatting kinda messes me up every now and then.. hehe
21:45:48  <SmatZ> :-)
21:46:28  <SmatZ> mailing the authors is probably the best thing to do, on the other hand, any broken AI shouldn't crash openttd
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23:08:53  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... weirdness? it's "19 km/h" and "45 kN" {with space} but it's "36t" and "174PS" {without space}
23:13:45  <V453000> looks natural though :)
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23:17:48  <Chris_Booth> I have a quick question, why when a vehicle is going 201 km/h for example does it flash 125/126 mph?
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23:20:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: no
23:21:04  <Chris_Booth> just no?
23:21:17  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
23:21:44  <Eddi|zuHause> the internal rounding is always done the same way, it does not flicker between two values
23:21:57  <Terkhen> good night
23:22:08  <Chris_Booth> nn Terkhen
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23:23:00  <andythenorth> bye Terkhen
23:23:01  <Chris_Booth> ooh I realise why it is now in my game Eddi|zuHause XD
23:23:23  <Chris_Booth> I have a 200km/h train and a 201 km/h train, but both show as 125mph
23:23:29  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:58:16  <frosch123> night
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