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00:00:35 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.87.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:00:40 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:03:47 <andythenorth> ho 00:03:54 <andythenorth> BROS falls off the rails again :P 00:04:16 <andythenorth> also....time for bed 00:04:19 <andythenorth> good night 00:04:50 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-169-180-203.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 00:06:43 <Terkhen> good night 00:08:20 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido] 00:11:00 *** MJP [~TdlQ@hq.z77.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:15:49 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 00:19:28 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: i like RAGE (fps game) - :P] 00:19:48 *** LordAro [~lordaro@host86-156-237-225.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."] 00:21:42 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:22:04 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-23-41-5.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 11.0/20120208012847]] 00:35:10 <Nat_as> is there anyway to make docks more intresting? 00:35:22 <Nat_as> or are there limitations hardwired? 00:35:37 <Nat_as> because Piers and container cranes would be awesome. 00:36:14 <Nat_as> right now you can't even put more than one dock next to each other. 00:37:49 <Rhamphoryncus> I haven't seen any indication that there is. All the station newgrf stuff is specific to train stations 00:38:12 <Nat_as> Yeah it's kind of a bummer 00:38:37 <Nat_as> if there was a new docks grif that let you build piers like stations (length and width) 00:38:40 *** tensai_cirno [~cirno@77.232.15.216] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:38:40 <Nat_as> that would be awesome 00:39:10 <Rhamphoryncus> IMO, the station newgrf needs to be generalized such that most tiles aren't part of a transportation type 00:39:24 <Nat_as> different styles for different cargos, like passingers, oil, and containers 00:39:39 <Nat_as> yeah stations ought to be cleaned up 00:40:35 <Nat_as> and Demolish should not blow the whole damn thing up 00:40:45 <Nat_as> i know bulldozer can remove indivudual tiles 00:40:53 <Rhamphoryncus> heh yeah 00:40:54 <Nat_as> but then I also have to remove the track underneath 00:41:07 <Nat_as> sometimes i'm not thinking and blow it up because I just wanted to get rid of one station row 00:41:17 <Rhamphoryncus> yup 00:41:22 <Nat_as> also it should be cheaper to restyle existing stations than to build new ones 00:41:28 <Nat_as> and not tick off the local authority 00:41:29 <Rhamphoryncus> I've blown up a station by removing a non-track tyle 00:41:37 <Nat_as> yeah that's the worst 00:41:44 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah 00:42:45 <Nat_as> custom airports would be cool to, like in simutrans 00:42:50 <Nat_as> but probably hard to implement 00:43:01 <Nat_as> at least not without invalidating the existing ones. 00:43:50 <Rhamphoryncus> It's doable 00:44:08 <Nat_as> yeah, simutrans proves this 00:44:55 <Nat_as> Just have taxyways count as roads for airplanes only, runways have a minimum length to count as a small or large airport. Teminals and Air depots exist, ect ect/ 00:45:04 <Rhamphoryncus> airports have a set of paths the planes take, much like train signal blocks. You'd need to be able to manipulate and group them together 00:45:10 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-104.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:45:17 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-104.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 00:45:25 <Nat_as> yeah that's the hard part 00:45:33 <Nat_as> they aren 00:45:41 <Nat_as> aren't quite like roads. 00:45:53 <Nat_as> aircraft take up a whole block and can't pass each other. 00:46:05 <Rhamphoryncus> oi, I forgot about the length thing. You could actually require longer and wider runways for bigger planes like the a380 in the aviator set 00:46:43 <Rhamphoryncus> On the flip side, I would design a MUCH more efficient airport ;) 00:47:17 <Nat_as> yes, right now airplanes are classified as small or large (IRL it's light and heavy), and if large airplanes try to land at a small airport there is a chance of crashing. 00:47:45 <Nat_as> yeah simutrans airports are much more space efficient. 00:48:12 <Nat_as> i hate how you have to make an internatonal airport if you want more than 3 terminal places 00:48:21 <Nat_as> what if I have cargo planes waiting to load 100% 00:49:10 <Nat_as> ... 00:49:23 <Rhamphoryncus> yup. Switching to intercontinental is something you just do everywhere ASAP 00:49:35 <Rhamphoryncus> Planes need a new mechanic to balance them better 00:49:45 <Nat_as> man, looking at the Newgrif tutorial, I can say that's one thing where we have more advanced code than Simutrans. 00:49:54 <Nat_as> I sugested airplanes being able to mix cargo types 00:50:04 <Nat_as> they trade flexibility for inefficiency. 00:50:17 <Nat_as> they can move anything anywhere, but cost lots of money. 00:50:19 <Rhamphoryncus> I mean better than the chance to crash 00:50:30 <Nat_as> oh lol 00:50:43 <Nat_as> really airplanes are more safe than trains or cars IRL 00:50:43 <Rhamphoryncus> hrm 00:50:49 <Rhamphoryncus> yup 00:51:02 <Nat_as> High speed trains are really dangerous. 00:51:45 <Rhamphoryncus> I was just thinking, YACD with different pricing brackets depending on time. Some passengers may really want a fast flight and pay more for it 00:51:55 <Nat_as> oh yeah 00:52:24 <Nat_as> i also suggested differentiating between commuters and travelers. 00:53:25 <Rhamphoryncus> The game would have to estimate travel times to only put those passengers on the plane though 00:53:52 <Rhamphoryncus> why? 00:54:08 <Nat_as> I'd rather see massive improvements to cargo desitnation handling before that. 00:55:49 <Nat_as> oh, commuters don't care about being stuffed into things and will travel both ways 00:56:04 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 00:56:18 <Nat_as> Travelers do care and will want to go somewhere as quick as possible and stay there 00:56:30 <Nat_as> that might be oversimple though. 00:56:42 <Nat_as> Tourism industries would be cool 00:58:18 <Rhamphoryncus> That could be simplified in to comfort levels 00:58:31 <Nat_as> yes 00:58:36 <Nat_as> the 00:58:59 <Nat_as> The "Passingers go both ways" thing however could be applied to all passingers 00:59:15 <Nat_as> balanced by simply reducing the amount of passingers created by half 00:59:42 <Nat_as> giant trains that move people from a big city to a small city and return empty are silly. 00:59:46 <Nat_as> and a bit disturbing. 00:59:59 <Rhamphoryncus> heh 01:00:12 <Rhamphoryncus> I'd put that on cargodest again 01:00:12 <Nat_as> reminds me of the "Fema death camp" that turned out to be an Amtrack facility 01:00:30 <Nat_as> OH NO, AMTRACK IS IN ON THE CONSPIRACY! 01:00:35 <Nat_as> DON'T GET IN THE TRAINS! 01:01:20 <Elukka> my favorite part of conspiracy theorists is how they ignore real conspiracies 01:01:30 <Rhamphoryncus> heh yup 01:02:13 <__ln__> wtf is a passinger? 01:02:30 <frosch123> http://xkcd.com/966/ 01:03:45 <Rhamphoryncus> the passingers, they're everywhere! 01:03:56 <Rhamphoryncus> They're what happen when you feed a passenger after midnight 01:04:07 <Elukka> they are much like the sheeple but a bit less dangerous 01:04:08 <Elukka> http://xkcd.com/1013/ 01:04:24 <Nat_as> lol 01:04:51 <frosch123> DorpsGek is our sheeple 01:06:03 <Elukka> the passingers skulk through abandoned stations and derelict sidings at night 01:08:24 <frosch123> night 01:08:27 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d009342.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:10:22 *** Firartix [~artixds@108.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:10:37 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.124.217.99] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:12:17 *** peteris [~peteris@78.84.97.170] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:13:16 *** chester [~chester@176.14.250.148] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:20:51 *** Xrufuian [~link@pool-98-119-100-3.lsanca.btas.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: ...] 01:22:02 <Nat_as> HA 01:22:08 <Nat_as> I made a cute little psudo subway system 01:22:12 <Nat_as> but I had to cheat to afford it 01:22:53 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 01:24:39 <Wolf01> 'night 01:24:43 <__ln__> night Wolf01 01:24:43 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host101-141-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 01:30:19 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:30:51 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 01:36:39 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 01:37:32 <Nat_as> hmm, are signals strictly necessary exiting stations? 01:38:00 <Nat_as> my subway layout seems to sugest they are not, but that might just be because the trains are as short as possible and get out of the way quickly 01:38:15 <Nat_as> I have a two platform set up leading into a double track, 01:38:32 <Nat_as> immediatly outside the station is an X allowing trains to switch to either platform when arriving 01:38:47 <Nat_as> and then there are route signals seperating the left and right raills into coming and going 01:39:09 <Nat_as> I used to put signals between the X and the stations but I left them out this time to save room and I don't notice any issue 01:40:21 <Rhamphoryncus> entering or exiting the station? 01:40:28 <Nat_as> exiting 01:40:38 <Rhamphoryncus> hrm. I'd have to see the layout 01:40:52 <Nat_as> I have Double tracks, Route signals, a cross, and the station itself 01:41:10 <Nat_as> it used to be double tracks, route signals, a cross, normal signals, and the station itself 01:41:36 <Rhamphoryncus> But the big caveat on most of this is normal block signals treat all the track as a single block, but if you're using path signals then the train can switch in to path mode and may not need signals 01:44:57 <Rhamphoryncus> That's a terminus station? It's the end of the line? 01:45:35 <Nat_as> it was, but i added another 01:45:40 <Nat_as> and it's still working fine 01:45:46 <Rhamphoryncus> huh 01:46:46 <Nat_as> it could be that the trains are too short and too fast to hit each other 01:46:59 <Nat_as> I want to know if I could replicate this building cargo routes 01:47:01 <Nat_as> with big trains 01:47:55 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm experimenting now 01:48:19 <Rhamphoryncus> For terminus it definitely works 01:49:33 <Rhamphoryncus> This is all 1-way? Or two-way? 01:52:03 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1900C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:53:19 <Rhamphoryncus> Okay, what happens if you have path signal, cross, station, cross, normal signal, and this is all 1-way (they continue through the station to the next station), when they're at the path signal they grab a path up until the next stopping point 01:53:44 <Rhamphoryncus> For a terminus station this is the end of the line. For a non-terminus station it's whatever signal is after 01:54:28 <Rhamphoryncus> Beware, with a cross after the station they may choose to swap, then sit there and load for a while, preventing any other train from leaving (because they took the path) 01:55:40 <Rhamphoryncus> There is something to help you with this. Click on the gear at the top left, advanced settings, interface, display options, set Show reserved tracks to on 02:00:22 <Nat_as> oh 02:00:35 <Nat_as> it seems that tracks are reserved when a train exits the station 02:00:42 <Nat_as> they count as signal blocks 02:01:40 <Nat_as> I really wish subways and underwater tunnels were possible 02:01:41 <Nat_as> :c 02:01:50 <Rhamphoryncus> they're reserved from before the train enters the station 02:02:05 <Rhamphoryncus> A train won't go unless it has a stopping point 02:04:08 <Nat_as> no i mean it automaticly reserves as the train exits 02:05:45 <Rhamphoryncus> hrm 02:05:57 <Nat_as> or rather they become reserved as the train enters the station and stay that way till it leaves the block 02:06:16 <Rhamphoryncus> oh, that is what I said 02:06:31 <Nat_as> lol my silly 02:07:19 <Rhamphoryncus> I notice that have a cross immediately after the station irks the pathfinder. It takes a second or two after the train is clear before another train will enter. It probably has a special case for signals immediately after the station 02:07:56 <Rhamphoryncus> having* 02:08:04 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 02:08:21 <Rhamphoryncus> It's much better to have a cross before the station, then signals immediately after 02:09:31 <Nat_as> yes but that doubles the lenght of the station 02:09:56 <Nat_as> which is bad if you are trying to build in a city 02:10:23 <Rhamphoryncus> .. doubles? 02:10:24 <Nat_as> how hard would it be to make OTTD maps layerd? 02:10:35 <Rhamphoryncus> Hard. I still want to do it though :) 02:10:45 <Nat_as> they would have to change the memory allocation of each tile right? 02:11:27 <Nat_as> but it would allow cool things like subways, elivated raill, and airplanes crashing into tall buildings because you put an airport in the center of a city. 02:11:29 <Rhamphoryncus> Redesign that, the save format, the path finding, the tools for building 02:11:45 <Nat_as> pathfinding? 02:12:16 <Nat_as> isn't that a function of the route shape? it should always be discribable as a web right? 02:12:19 <Rhamphoryncus> huh, that gives me an interesting thought: when building a custom airport you could "build" the flight path it uses to land. This would prevent buildings from grabbing that space 02:12:20 <Nat_as> even if routes overlap 02:12:32 <Nat_as> yeah that would be cool 02:12:38 <Rhamphoryncus> No, it understands the route as a graph and figures out the optimal way to get there 02:13:16 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-72-180.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:13:58 <Nat_as> yeah that's what I thought 02:14:09 <Nat_as> making a map 3d should not effect that 02:14:25 <Nat_as> anyways, 'building' air routes would be cool. 02:14:49 <Rhamphoryncus> The algorithms are usually pretty abstract, but the actual code will need some changes to handle it 02:14:56 <Nat_as> maybe small airports don't need it, but large ones become dangerous if you don't. 02:15:09 <Nat_as> the biggest problem is changing the memory 02:15:15 <Rhamphoryncus> AI's would need work 02:15:17 <Arafangion> Nat_as: Aren't they like boats... No chance of crashes in air? 02:15:26 <Arafangion> Even if they overlap. 02:15:28 <Rhamphoryncus> No, memory is easy :) 02:15:36 <Nat_as> Well this sugestion would allow air crashes >:3 02:15:48 <Nat_as> so it's just three easy problems/ 02:16:00 <Arafangion> Nat_as: Realistic air traffic management is very tricky. 02:16:21 <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_as: if you build a landing path then there's nothing to crash in to 02:16:27 <Arafangion> You have corridors, and modern planes monitor nearby planes and ensure that they keep the right distance, etc. 02:17:16 <Arafangion> Mid-air crashes are relatively rare, except for airports. 02:17:47 <Nat_as> I know 02:17:56 <Nat_as> I used to be in the air force learning to be an ATC 02:17:58 <Nat_as> it's hard 02:18:03 <Nat_as> hence why I am here now 02:18:07 <Rhamphoryncus> If you're arguing realism then compared to trains they essentially never happen. That's not the issue though. They need a better balancing factor 02:18:15 <Arafangion> True. 02:18:23 <Arafangion> Right now planes ruin the fun of the game. 02:18:44 <Nat_as> but it would be cool to 'build' takeoff and landing coridoors, and holding fixes and such 02:19:02 <Nat_as> I'm imagining giant transparent radar display symbols that are layered over the map 02:19:04 <Arafangion> We also need more helicopters. 02:19:09 <Nat_as> oh yes 02:19:23 <Arafangion> As the game progresses, the options in planes and airports become severely restricted. 02:19:42 <Nat_as> Boats should have bigger docks, Airplanes should have custom layouts, and trains should have subways 02:20:08 <Rhamphoryncus> You forgot trucks 02:20:18 <Nat_as> uhh trucks 02:20:19 <Nat_as> Idno 02:20:24 <Arafangion> What about trucks? 02:20:28 <Nat_as> No idea 02:20:37 <Nat_as> I'm here for the trains 02:20:44 <Nat_as> :P 02:20:52 <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: What about trucks? :) 02:21:04 <Arafangion> I think the trucks are all fine, but maintaining them is a bitch . 02:21:08 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-141-137-106-77.eidsiva.net] has joined #openttd 02:21:10 <Rhamphoryncus> Their stations need work too 02:21:16 <Nat_as> although i supose trucks would benifit from tunnels and sky bridges the same way trains would 02:21:36 <Nat_as> HIGHWAYS! 02:21:59 <Nat_as> one way roads 02:22:13 <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: They have lots of options with stations, though. 02:22:31 <Rhamphoryncus> garbage and not garbage? 02:22:35 <Nat_as> stations have lots of options, what they need are a coherent slice of options. 02:22:45 <Nat_as> take the best ones and put them into a pack 02:22:52 <Nat_as> we need more automatic stations. 02:22:56 <Nat_as> and more non station tiles. 02:23:06 <Arafangion> The main issue I have with trucks, is that they usually just go for the closest station, rather than the most 'ideal' station. 02:23:23 <Nat_as> also non station buildings that do shit 02:23:28 <Nat_as> like hotels would be nice. 02:24:09 <Nat_as> Raillroad Tycoon3 had hotels and bars that gave you money for passengers leaving and arriving at a station. 02:24:12 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-141-137-106-77.eidsiva.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:24:26 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-141-137-106-77.eidsiva.net] has joined #openttd 02:25:23 <Rhamphoryncus> Arafangion: they *have* code to pick empty stations, it just fails fairly often 02:26:17 <Rhamphoryncus> Actually, that's probably one of the best things to really work on. It's totally achievable without significant consequences. Unlike everything else we've mentioned here. 02:26:29 <Nat_as> lol 02:26:39 <Nat_as> fix trucks first 02:26:44 <Nat_as> even though nobody cares about them 02:26:45 <Nat_as> :V 02:27:31 <Rhamphoryncus> I've actually found trucks are often the most profitable 02:27:58 <Arafangion> Trucks require the least setup, and somehow, don't seem to be as sensitive to slow cargo delivery. 02:28:10 <Arafangion> But they're a PITA to manage. 02:28:40 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-071-251.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:31:04 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-178-020.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 02:31:12 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-141-137-106-77.eidsiva.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:31:33 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-141-137-106-77.eidsiva.net] has joined #openttd 02:32:00 <Nat_as> yes I hate trucks because of how hard route management is in this game 02:32:18 <Rhamphoryncus> Do you use shared order lists? 02:32:27 <Nat_as> another feature I wish this game had from simutrans is route handing separate from vehicle handling. 02:32:31 <Nat_as> shared order lists? 02:32:51 <Nat_as> you mean like when you click on another train to copy it's orders? 02:33:13 <Nat_as> or is there a better way to quickly change several vehicle's orders at once? 02:34:12 <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: Managing the shared order lists is also PITA. :) 02:34:19 <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: How do you keep track of those lists? 02:34:29 <Rhamphoryncus> Make a group for each list 02:34:36 <Nat_as> where are shared order lists? 02:34:43 <Rhamphoryncus> Put one truck in to it then use "add shared vehicles 02:34:43 <Arafangion> I must be using an old OTTD. 02:34:55 <Rhamphoryncus> naw, the features are well hidden :P 02:35:05 <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_as: ctrl-click when duplicating or cloning 02:35:36 <Rhamphoryncus> or select an existing vehicle, click "go to", then ctrl-click on a vehicle you want to join with 02:35:53 <Nat_as> oh I know how to copy orders 02:36:15 <Nat_as> I was wondering if there were sets of orders stored independently of veichiles that you could quickly switch into and out of 02:36:16 <Rhamphoryncus> It's not a copy. Using ctrl makes it shared 02:36:18 <Nat_as> :c 02:37:06 <Rhamphoryncus> You can do switching like that *if* you have a dummy truck somewhere with those orders. 02:37:51 <Nat_as> hmm 02:38:04 <Nat_as> maybe if there was an administrative building that stored sets of orders 02:38:06 <Nat_as> that would be cool 02:38:17 <Rhamphoryncus> Also, route management is what I'm working on. It will do this 02:38:31 <Rhamphoryncus> Create a route first, then create vehicles to use it 02:38:36 <Nat_as> so you don't have to get annoying popups of "train is waiting in the depot. 02:38:52 <Nat_as> and it would be an excuse for pretty non track buildings 02:38:57 <Nat_as> which are always nice. 02:39:18 <Rhamphoryncus> Anyway, afk for a few hours at least 02:41:48 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@172.Red-193-153-66.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:50:41 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-178-020.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 02:55:13 *** Elu [Elukka@78-27-90-104.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 02:56:38 *** tparker [~tparker@2600:3c03::1d:4242] has quit [Quit: brb] 02:57:00 *** tparker [~tparker@2600:3c03::1d:4242] has joined #openttd 03:00:12 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-141-137-106-77.eidsiva.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:00:33 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-141-137-106-77.eidsiva.net] has joined #openttd 03:00:44 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-104.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:24:12 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-141-137-106-77.eidsiva.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:24:32 *** Elu [Elukka@78-27-90-104.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 03:24:33 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-141-137-106-77.eidsiva.net] has joined #openttd 03:25:14 *** tparker [~tparker@2600:3c03::1d:4242] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:25:37 *** tparker [~tparker@2600:3c03::1d:4242] has joined #openttd 03:26:37 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:36:43 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ee80.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 03:44:06 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d08f3a1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:45:21 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 03:47:20 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ee80.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us] 03:56:54 *** TheStick [~TheStick@cpe-67-253-205-171.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 03:57:21 <TheStick> Hey, I've got a question... 03:57:49 <TheStick> ...are there binaries for a "dedicated server" version of OpenTTD on a generic Linux machine? 04:01:44 <Arafangion> TheStick: Is that different from the regular binary? 04:01:53 <TheStick> Yes... 04:02:01 <TheStick> ...in that it only works as a server for a multiplayer game... 04:02:12 <TheStick> ...that is, zero graphics, sero gameplay on the machine itself. 04:02:16 <TheStick> *zero gameplay 04:02:40 <TheStick> Because I'm getting this error: 04:02:42 <TheStick> error while loading shared libraries: libSDL-1.2.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory 04:03:11 <glx> you have to build dedicated version yourself IIRC 04:03:27 <TheStick> ... 04:03:36 <Nat_as> YAY OPEN SOURCE! 04:03:40 <TheStick> ...how would I do that on a Windows machine...? 04:04:06 <glx> on windows you just get the normal build 04:04:26 <glx> it has dedicated included 04:04:40 <TheStick> ...really, I have two options. Compile on this Win7, or sftp and compile on the generic Linux. 04:04:46 <TheStick> Cuz I want it to run off the Linux. 04:05:04 <glx> (same for linux except if you need a full dedicated without X) 04:05:19 <TheStick> Which is what I need. 04:05:31 <glx> compile on linux 04:06:21 <TheStick> Lessee. Get gzip arc of the source... 04:07:33 <TheStick> ...something tells me this is gonna get messy. 04:07:36 <TheStick> Housekeeping... 04:08:43 <TheStick> Extract... 04:09:08 <glx> you'll need some libs 04:09:20 <TheStick> ...libs from where...? 04:10:56 <glx> from the distribution 04:12:34 <Arafangion> TheStick: What distro are you using, incidentally? 04:12:46 <TheStick> ...of Linus? 04:12:49 <TheStick> *Linux 04:13:06 <Arafangion> TheStick: That's usually what the question applies to, yes. :) 04:13:20 <TheStick> ...long story short, I'm repurposing a MineOS CRUX distro. 04:13:33 <TheStick> ...a distro primarily intended to host a Minecraft server. 04:13:46 <Arafangion> TheStick: Then you'll probably have to figure things out yourself. :) 04:13:58 * Arafangion is biased towards debian. 04:14:18 <TheStick> ...does anyone know which libs I'm gonna need to see if I can't snag 'em from somewhere...? 04:14:43 <glx> http://wiki.openttd.org/GNU/Linux 04:14:55 <TheStick> ...oh, yeah. That would help...; 04:15:02 * TheStick is obviously flying blind here...; 04:15:52 <glx> of course this page is not for dedicated servers 04:16:16 <Arafangion> And SDL isn't neccessarily something that depends on X122 04:16:18 <Arafangion> *X11 04:16:42 <glx> sdl usually requires a window manager 04:17:14 <Arafangion> Usually. 04:17:33 <glx> basically you start with ./configure --enable-dedicated 04:18:44 <TheStick> Error: configure: error: no liblzo2 detected 04:18:54 <TheStick> Hm. 04:18:56 <glx> and the important libs for a server are zlib, liblzma and liblzo 04:19:08 <TheStick> ...let's see if I can't find that anywhere... 04:20:20 <TheStick> ...uhm. What's the typical extension of a lib that Linux can run...? 04:20:42 <TheStick> ...SO? 04:21:08 <glx> you need the dev versions 04:21:17 <glx> so .a 04:21:27 <glx> and the corresponding headers 04:22:03 <TheStick> (I'm gonna use the 1.1.5 version of OpenTTD, do I really need the dev version?) 04:22:38 <glx> you always need the dev version of libs to compile 04:22:49 <TheStick> ...mmkay then. 04:23:00 <Rhamphoryncus> The -dev *packages* include what you need to compile a program that uses them 04:23:05 <TheStick> So I'm looking for liblzo2.a, right...? 04:23:27 <TheStick> Or liblzo2.so.a? 04:23:33 <Rhamphoryncus> Surely that distro has some sort of package system available 04:24:03 <TheStick> apt-get: no 04:24:35 <TheStick> urpmi: no 04:24:41 <TheStick> zypper: no 04:24:57 <TheStick> yum: no 04:25:16 <TheStick> emerge: no 04:25:29 <TheStick> pacman: no 04:25:31 <glx> prt-get maybe 04:25:52 <TheStick> prt-get: no command given. try prt-get help for more information 04:26:03 <TheStick> Lookee that. 04:26:46 <Rhamphoryncus> Check their website 04:26:59 <Rhamphoryncus> It's possible to grab upstream tarballs and install yourself, but doing this repeatedly will cause debris to collect and in the long run will be MUCH more work 04:27:05 <Rhamphoryncus> And require much more learning 04:27:13 <glx> seems they have xz and zlib 04:27:25 <glx> but I don't really see dev versions 04:28:28 <glx> oh they have lzo too 04:30:06 <TheStick> ...so then where would I need to run prt-get depinst openttd? 04:32:19 <TheStick> ...also, I'm getting a worrying error: 04:32:29 <TheStick> [Config error: can't access /usr/ports/*] 04:32:43 <TheStick> Where * is one of "core", "opt", "contrib" 04:36:12 <TheStick> ...ugh. I gotta go do something. Be right back. 04:42:05 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:7457:4189:a2e8:d373] has quit [Quit: bye] 04:43:40 <TheStick> Back. 04:56:48 <TheStick> o.o 04:57:03 <TheStick> They don't have a liblzo2 port / package. 05:24:20 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 05:35:27 <TheStick> ...ugh. 05:35:44 <TheStick> Ok, so I tried skipping liblzo2 entirely, since I can't seem to find it... 05:35:51 <TheStick> ...and I'm trying to run the Makefile... 05:36:09 <TheStick> ...and I'm smacked with Syntax erros. 05:36:11 <TheStick> *errors 05:38:30 <TheStick> ...uhm. 05:38:45 <TheStick> Is everyone here simply idling...? 05:43:23 <TheStick> ...hello...? 05:45:46 <supermop> hi 05:45:54 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 05:46:17 <supermop> most of the people are in europe, so they are asleep 05:46:22 <TheStick> ... 05:46:26 <TheStick> ...figures...; 05:46:56 <TheStick> I'm trying to compile OpenTTD, dedicated-mode, on a Linux Box. 05:47:14 <TheStick> ...unfortunately, I'm getting lovely syntax errors. 05:49:03 <TheStick> ...any possibility I could get a pinch of assistance...? 05:49:45 *** mkv` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 05:49:55 <supermop> hmm 05:50:20 <TheStick> (Running a CRUX distro, btw.) 05:50:23 <supermop> i dont know anything about it, but i'd suggest posting in the forum, and waiting until morning 05:50:57 <supermop> or seeing if someone has written something about it in the development subforum 05:51:01 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 05:51:15 <TheStick> ...but, then... if it's a syntax error thing, then wouldn't that be a bug...? 05:51:29 <supermop> um 05:51:49 <supermop> i actually dont know really any programming so i am nut sure 05:52:14 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:52:35 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 05:54:46 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:58:54 *** mkv` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:00:37 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:23:37 <Rhamphoryncus> TheStick: methinks you'd be better off installing a different distro 06:23:50 <TheStick> :s 06:24:03 <TheStick> Is there anything that can run console-only...? 06:24:09 <Rhamphoryncus> Lots? 06:24:34 <Rhamphoryncus> There's swaths of linux servers quietly powering the world 06:24:51 <Rhamphoryncus> And probably ever major distro has a server version 06:25:13 <TheStick> ...course, I picked CRUX since it (supposedly) has a small memroy footprint, leaving more for Minecraft... 06:25:29 <Arafangion> Ha. 06:25:49 <TheStick> I've only got 0.75 MiB to work with...; 06:25:55 <TheStick> Old box. 06:26:09 <Arafangion> TheStick: You're not getting linux on that, then. 06:26:09 <Rhamphoryncus> of ram? Not even a meg? 06:26:22 <Rhamphoryncus> Well you CAN, but it won't be any easy, major distro 06:26:24 <TheStick> >.< 06:26:27 <TheStick> 0.75 Gib. 06:26:34 <TheStick> *GiB 06:26:34 <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: Not sure you could, even, with tomsrtbt. 06:26:36 <Rhamphoryncus> that's not so bad 06:26:47 <TheStick> Screwed that one up. 06:28:32 <Rhamphoryncus> tomsrtbt is designed for small disks, not small ram 06:29:34 <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: Even so, it's a 2.0.x kernel. 06:29:39 <Rhamphoryncus> It's old 06:29:53 <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: And the whole kernel has to be put into RAM. 06:30:43 <Rhamphoryncus> TheStick: Either way I know debian or ubuntu server versions would run in that 06:30:53 <Rhamphoryncus> I'd be far more concerned about openttd itself than linux 06:31:03 <TheStick> ...right... 06:31:27 <Rhamphoryncus> Not having X, gnome/kde, a graphical browser, or any of that makes a HUGE difference 06:31:51 <TheStick> ...anyways, I found a syntax error with the Makefile...; 06:34:08 <Rhamphoryncus> this article claims linux needs around 2 MB: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECos 06:34:38 <TheStick> ...and around how much would OpenTTD want...? 06:35:49 <Arafangion> TheStick: Considerably more. :) 06:36:02 <Arafangion> Also, linux needs more than 2MB as well. 06:36:14 <TheStick> What I mean is... 06:36:23 <TheStick> ...would I be able to run OpenTTD with 0.75 GiB of RAM? 06:37:01 <Arafangion> Sure. 06:37:33 <Arafangion> Referring to RAM as "0.75 GiB of RAM" is an exceededly odd way of saying it, mind you. 06:37:39 <TheStick> ... 06:37:51 <TheStick> Just trying to be specific...; 06:40:09 <Arafangion> TheStick: Do keep in mind that measuring RAM precisely is more involved than you realise. 06:40:26 <TheStick> ... :/ 06:40:56 * Arafangion heads off! 06:56:35 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.11.192] has joined #openttd 07:01:45 *** kkb110__ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 07:01:45 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:05:35 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-141-137-106-77.eidsiva.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:05:42 *** kkb110__ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 07:06:15 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 07:23:02 *** TheStick [~TheStick@cpe-67-253-205-171.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Yummy, like ircing on a cake! [ http://www.bersirc.org/ - Open Source IRC ]] 07:45:37 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-169-180-203.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 07:50:02 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-16-153-106-77.eidsiva.net] has joined #openttd 07:51:46 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 07:54:28 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 07:54:36 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-169-180-203.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 08:04:57 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-169-180-203.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 08:12:32 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-169-180-203.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 08:21:16 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-169-180-203.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 08:31:36 *** Nat_as [83bf2240@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 08:31:55 <Rhamphoryncus> Hmm, I think I've put together a robust timetabling algorithm. Anybody interested in the details? 08:40:18 <andythenorth> moin 08:43:33 <Rhamphoryncus> ahoy 08:50:20 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.124.217.99] has joined #openttd 09:10:41 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 09:15:42 *** Firartix [~artixds@108.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 09:16:18 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-23-41-5.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:17:02 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:22:41 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BA12.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:25:31 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@178.248.252.204] has joined #openttd 09:26:52 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@178.248.252.204] has quit [] 09:28:12 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 09:32:06 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:34:09 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-183-153.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 09:36:21 *** MJP [~TdlQ@hq.z77.fr] has joined #openttd 09:39:22 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-253-217.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:40:22 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-138-187.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 09:40:25 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 09:43:46 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-127-98.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 09:43:49 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 09:44:22 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-183-153.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:48:49 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-10-163.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 09:49:02 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-138-187.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:53:42 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0/20120129142603]] 09:54:46 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-127-98.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:01:19 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-66-118.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 10:01:22 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 10:06:16 *** flaa [~flaa@089-101-093077.ntlworld.ie] has joined #openttd 10:07:07 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-10-163.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:08:17 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 10:08:21 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 10:08:34 <Alberth> hi hi 10:09:11 <Rhamphoryncus> Ahoy 10:09:46 <andythenorth> moin Alberth 10:10:03 <Rhamphoryncus> Can anybody give me some quick pointers on how to save/load a byte array? Technically I could get away with 2 or 3 bits for each value 10:11:16 <Rhamphoryncus> Hmm, SL_ARR looks promising 10:11:31 <TinoDidriksen> Then you can define that you're using 3 per value and just write that out. 10:12:49 <TinoDidriksen> But it's a lot of code to pack the bits. Much easier to just dump a byte array to a stream. 10:13:34 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, perfectly easy for me to treat it as nibbles 10:13:53 <Rhamphoryncus> Or.. a uint32 array and 3-bits 10 times 10:14:59 <TinoDidriksen> That's going to be some fiddling code to work with... 10:15:25 <TinoDidriksen> I'd go with nibbles if space is that needed. 10:15:27 <Rhamphoryncus> Nah, I'll just throw together a macro to do bitshifting for get/set 10:15:56 <TinoDidriksen> Macro, ew... inline template, ftw. 10:16:07 <Rhamphoryncus> heh. Not that proficient in C++ 10:17:02 <andythenorth> what's wrong with macros? :) 10:17:11 <andythenorth> genuine question 10:17:30 <Rhamphoryncus> A C macro is purely a textual substition 10:17:36 <Rhamphoryncus> substitution* 10:17:41 <TinoDidriksen> They're unsafe. inline templates are type checked at compile time; macros can be abused. 10:18:01 <Rhamphoryncus> So you can have something like this: #define FOO &#(*#}J{ #*$#( 10:18:06 <TinoDidriksen> Same reason you should prefer const globals instead of #define constants. 10:18:27 <andythenorth> k 10:19:01 <Rhamphoryncus> constants aren't nearly as bad.. but I can still see a const global being better 10:27:36 <Terkhen> good morning 10:28:00 <andythenorth> hola Terkhen 10:28:27 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:29:29 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-088-068-029-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 10:30:41 <Rhamphoryncus> TinoDidriksen: so.. could you actually give me a hint? 10:31:17 <TinoDidriksen> Sounded like you had it under control in your own way... 10:31:33 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm using grep and browsing, trying to learn saveload 10:32:16 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm sure it does arrays, I've even found one or two mentions, but I haven't found an example yet 10:34:38 <Terkhen> Rhamphoryncus: I suggest checking trunk revisions that made changes to saveload to get an idea of how it works 10:34:45 <Rhamphoryncus> hrm 10:34:47 <Terkhen> it is a bit confusing :) 10:35:41 <Rhamphoryncus> That's an understatement 10:39:22 <Terkhen> I understood it briefly while creating the persistent storage pool codechanges, now I barely remember it :P 10:39:40 * Rhamphoryncus finds openttd.svg and finds out that it contains.. vectorized pixel art. 10:45:06 <andythenorth> :) 10:49:58 * andythenorth wonders if nmlc -> nfo -> grfcodec -> grf is faster than nmlc -> grf ? 10:51:06 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:51:53 <Rhamphoryncus> Hmm.. SlArray.. Load_ORDL, Save_ORDL. More promising stuff. 10:53:50 <Terkhen> andythenorth: probably not 10:54:10 <Rubidium> Terkhen: it actually might be 10:54:48 <Rubidium> nml tries both compression formats, grfcodec only the specified one 10:55:13 <Terkhen> oh, I see 10:55:44 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [] 10:57:21 * andythenorth wonders how to test 10:57:54 <Terkhen> time make 10:59:37 <Rhamphoryncus> what does SLE stand for? Save load encoding? Save load entry? 10:59:43 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 11:01:52 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-088-068-029-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:02:14 <Alberth> and do that several times, to eliminate disk caching effects 11:03:07 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.87.106] has joined #openttd 11:03:20 *** Netsplit resistance.oftc.net <-> oxygen.oftc.net quits: Arafangion, @Belugas, xiong, cmircea, ccfreak2k, supermop 11:03:38 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 11:03:45 <Rubidium> or use a ramdisk and disable swap 11:03:55 *** Netsplit over, joins: cmircea, supermop, @Belugas, Arafangion, xiong, ccfreak2k 11:03:59 *** mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ 11:06:38 *** peteris [~peteris@78.84.97.170] has joined #openttd 11:07:20 <andythenorth> meh 11:07:30 <andythenorth> grfcodec will barf on my directory structure :| 11:07:37 * andythenorth temporarily hacks that 11:08:40 <Alberth> always nice, programs that enforce a particular directory structure :p 11:10:04 <Terkhen> :) 11:10:42 <andythenorth> woah 11:10:54 <andythenorth> ok, averages, rounding down because it's not that significant: 11:11:23 <andythenorth> nmlc -> grf: 13s 11:11:29 <andythenorth> nmlc -> nfo: 4s 11:11:51 <andythenorth> grfcodec -> grf: 0.3s (oops, can't round that down) :O 11:12:08 * andythenorth wonders how to edit makefile to change this :) 11:12:34 <andythenorth> silly old grfcodec wants my nfo in sprites/ 11:12:47 <andythenorth> but that's not tragic 11:13:16 * andythenorth still hasn't figured out makefile editing yet 11:13:42 <andythenorth> and I'm not replacing it with python - makefile has three years work and all those targets and edge cases taken care of... 11:14:20 * andythenorth ponders shell script 11:14:34 <andythenorth> ho 11:14:45 <andythenorth> maybe I just tell the makefile it's an nfo project :) 11:15:19 <Terkhen> yeah, that should work 11:15:23 <Terkhen> s/should/might/ 11:17:28 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-98-90.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 11:20:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23932 /trunk/ (17 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: split the NewGRF text window into its own source files 11:22:25 <andythenorth> hmm 11:22:35 <andythenorth> bash alias works for me 11:22:42 <andythenorth> alias makebandit='nmlc bandit.nml --nfo=sprites/bandit.nfo && grfcodec -e bandit.grf && mv bandit.grf /Users/andy/Documents/OpenTTD/data' 11:23:02 <andythenorth> leave the makefile alone 11:23:07 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-97-243.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 11:23:08 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 11:23:08 <andythenorth> don't break what I can't fix :) 11:23:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23933 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt newgrf_gui.cpp): -Codechange: make the text file window strings more generic (LordAro) 11:23:37 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-66-118.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:24:00 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.27.87.106] has joined #openttd 11:24:16 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 11:24:22 <Alberth> andythenorth: I often put such sequences in a real script file, less likely to get lost :) 11:24:41 * andythenorth never read the manual on how to do that 11:25:00 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:25:18 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 11:26:12 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [] 11:26:29 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 11:26:33 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:26:38 <Alberth> andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1098/ 11:26:42 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-98-90.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:28:00 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-195-221.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 11:29:08 <Alberth> put that in a file (makebandit or so), chmod u+x makebandit and run it with ./makebandit 11:29:50 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-16-153-106-77.eidsiva.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:30:15 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-16-153-106-77.eidsiva.net] has joined #openttd 11:30:53 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.87.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:30:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23934 /trunk/src/lang/ (43 files in 2 dirs): -Update: other language files w.r.t. the previous change 11:32:57 *** TdlQ_ [~TdlQ@hq.z77.fr] has joined #openttd 11:33:46 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-97-243.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:34:43 <andythenorth> Alberth: thanks 11:35:23 <andythenorth> 5s, not 13s 11:35:31 <andythenorth> 8s less frustration :) 11:39:27 <Alberth> you're working around the natural barrier which is designed to keep newgrfs small :p 11:39:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23935 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_config.cpp textfile_gui.cpp textfile_gui.h): -Codechange: generalise GetTextfile 11:39:55 *** MJP [~TdlQ@hq.z77.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:40:03 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-088-068-029-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 11:42:21 <Zuu> In one network timeout string the computer of a user is blamed that it takes too long to join. In another the user is blamed because he/she took too long to download the map. I can understand that we blame a user to be too slow to type the password, but shouldn't his/her computer be blamed for slow download speed rather than the user him/herself? 11:42:44 <Zuu> STR_NETWORK_ERROR_TIMEOUT_MAP <-- string that could be changed from user to computer. 11:43:19 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:44:30 <Rhamphoryncus> Zuu: I agree. I'd go with "Client took too long to download the map" 11:46:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23936 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 6 dirs): -Feature [FS#5047]: readme/licence/changelog viewer for AI and game scripts (LordAro) 11:48:22 <Zuu> Nice 11:48:32 <Rubidium> Zuu: http://rbijker.net/openttd/zuu.diff ? 11:49:24 <Zuu> Yep that is what I had in mind. 11:50:08 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 11:50:08 <Zuu> You could of course starting to say that his ISP is to slow etc. but that is taking things too far as the slowness of download can't easily be told what the cause is. 11:50:44 *** Chris_Booth_ [~chatzilla@client-86-23-41-5.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:55:05 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-23-41-5.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:55:06 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host101-141-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 11:55:11 *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth 11:55:56 <Wolf01> hello 11:58:59 <andythenorth> Alberth: CETS compile time is ~4 mins :D 11:59:29 <Alberth> good for making some coffee :) 11:59:49 <Alberth> hello W01 12:07:42 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-17-80.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 12:07:45 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 12:08:43 <Rubidium> with grf container version 2 you might do some tricks to prevent nml from re-encoding the graphics each time. Then it might become significantly faster, although dep checking will be a nightmare 12:09:29 <andythenorth> dep checks seem to be a headache 12:13:42 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-195-221.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:16:20 <andythenorth> anyone ever written procedural graphics generator? 12:16:29 * andythenorth is reluctant to draw 12:16:37 <andythenorth> anyone / anyone here /s 12:17:42 <Alberth> all renderer programs? 12:18:14 <andythenorth> this would be pure 2d bitmap composition 12:18:26 <andythenorth> x,y,z 12:18:45 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: I can't help but think that's a bad idea 12:18:49 <andythenorth> with alpha / mask / genlock support 12:18:56 <andythenorth> drawing is boring 12:19:00 <andythenorth> writing code is interesting 12:19:05 <Rhamphoryncus> True 12:19:19 <Rhamphoryncus> But you're not going to end up with much variety doing that 12:19:20 <andythenorth> if I draw truck components, does anyone want to lay them out according to simple rules? 12:19:31 * andythenorth considers amazon mechanical turk 12:19:46 <Rhamphoryncus> You'll be like the face configurator thing 12:20:11 <andythenorth> trucks are pretty vanilla 12:20:12 <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=153701 12:21:26 <Rhamphoryncus> Mix-and-match trailers I could see 12:21:42 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-178-020.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 12:22:02 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f4c31.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:22:28 <Rhamphoryncus> How many distinct cabs do you actually see on there? 12:22:36 <andythenorth> there are 4 or so 12:23:05 <andythenorth> the actual graphics will need maybe 12 distinct cab styles 12:23:58 <andythenorth> they're on a standard grid of 4px units 12:24:06 <andythenorth> so composing them would be possible - in theory 12:24:13 <Rhamphoryncus> Ignoring the wheels then yeah, it's 4 12:24:23 <andythenorth> wheels can be comped on top 12:24:51 <Rhamphoryncus> You'd honestly spend more time programming than you would doing it in gimp 12:24:56 <Rhamphoryncus> and you'd get a better result in gimp 12:25:30 <andythenorth> the sad time comes when I improve a truck cab 12:25:40 <andythenorth> then have to copy it into n photoshop files 12:25:53 <andythenorth> maintaining graphics is a PITA 12:26:06 <andythenorth> I could actually do this with Adobe's Flash IDE 12:26:18 <andythenorth> which supports symbols that can be comped 12:26:33 <andythenorth> and easy procedural positioning of sprites 12:26:37 <andythenorth> and png output 12:26:38 <Rhamphoryncus> hrm 12:26:43 <andythenorth> but the flash IDE sucks 12:26:46 <andythenorth> that's my old life 12:26:51 <andythenorth> hmm 12:26:58 <andythenorth> After Effects can do comps of symbols too 12:27:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23937 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Change: improve the wording of some of the timeout related "error" messages 12:29:58 <andythenorth> ho 12:30:02 <andythenorth> photoshop smart objects 12:30:06 <andythenorth> instances of symbols 12:39:42 <andythenorth> meh 12:39:48 <andythenorth> that's not very future proof 12:50:50 *** Shiners [5f53cf75@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 12:52:25 *** Shiners [5f53cf75@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [] 13:14:31 *** Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@home.deboom.biz] has joined #openttd 13:16:15 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 13:25:30 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-178-020.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 13:27:51 * andythenorth figures out a better way to handle calculating run cost etc 13:28:11 <andythenorth> if no value is set, calculate the value 13:28:17 <andythenorth> if a value is set, use the value 13:28:31 <andythenorth> no magic happens to a value that is manually set 13:28:39 <andythenorth> hence magic xOR no-magic 13:28:46 <andythenorth> sanity prevails 13:29:02 <Rhamphoryncus> Sanity is a rare commodity ;) 13:29:19 *** micasousa99 [d98187d7@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 13:29:49 *** micasousa99 [d98187d7@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [] 13:32:31 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-178-020.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 13:52:03 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-088-068-029-214.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #openttd [I only left the channel so... I'm still on the network. It's probably your fault that I'm gone.] 13:54:17 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:3551:20fb:50c4:53f7] has joined #openttd 13:54:21 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 14:01:24 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:12:07 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-28-218-86.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 14:12:11 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-178-020.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 14:25:55 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 14:36:39 *** micasousa99 [d98187d7@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 14:43:57 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 14:45:31 *** micasousa99 [d98187d7@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 14:48:09 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-104.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 14:57:02 *** TdlQ__ [~TdlQ@hq.z77.fr] has joined #openttd 15:00:45 <andythenorth> defining a function that's only called once per class... 15:00:54 <andythenorth> ...seems tidy, but actually makes for worse code? 15:01:09 <andythenorth> more pointless indirection, harder to read 15:01:11 <andythenorth> ?? 15:02:18 <Rhamphoryncus> not necessarily 15:02:25 <Zuu> If you can abstract away some code by puting it in a function with a good descriptive name, the code that calls the function could become easier to read. 15:02:29 <Rhamphoryncus> It's a question of abstraction 15:02:33 <andythenorth> I'll paste 15:02:48 <Rhamphoryncus> Potentially MUCH easier to read 15:03:11 <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1099/ 15:03:17 <andythenorth> l40 - 45 15:03:25 <andythenorth> could be set_graphics_file 15:03:38 <andythenorth> similar to modify_capacities_fifth_wheel_trucks 15:03:55 <andythenorth> seems over-engineered to use functions for these though 15:04:04 <andythenorth> even though I personally find it much easier to read 15:04:05 *** TdlQ_ [~TdlQ@hq.z77.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:04:19 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah.. it's only a small dent but I think I'd do it too 15:04:20 <Zuu> 140? the paste doesn't contain that many lines. 15:04:26 <andythenorth> l 40 15:04:34 <Zuu> oh 15:05:09 <andythenorth> when setting props, I don't really want to read "if foo, blah, else: other blah" 15:05:20 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05:23 <andythenorth> I hate if-else blocks in the middle of otherwise simple code 15:05:52 <Zuu> Sounds like you have good arguments for defining a function. 15:06:05 <andythenorth> except....violates the 'do it once, do it long hand' 15:06:12 <andythenorth> 'do it twice, write a function' 15:06:16 <andythenorth> meh 15:07:09 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 15:08:09 *** Wolf03 [~wolf01@host101-141-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 15:08:09 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2341 15:08:09 *** Wolf03 is now known as Wolf01 15:08:15 *** Guest2341 [~wolf01@host101-141-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:19:00 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:23:38 * andythenorth did the functions anyway :) 15:26:03 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 15:28:00 <Rhamphoryncus> :) 15:28:15 <Rhamphoryncus> what's this "do it once, do it long hand" you speak of? 15:28:44 <Rhamphoryncus> IMO, it's a myth. Functions are NOT to prevent duplicate code. They're to provide abstraction 15:29:02 <Rhamphoryncus> goto is to prevent duplicate code ;) 15:30:34 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:31:12 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@ip-16-153-106-77.eidsiva.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:33:32 <Rubidium> abstractions prevent duplicate code 15:35:01 <Rhamphoryncus> Abstractions can reduce code size. Duplicate code is a consequence, not a cause 15:35:10 <andythenorth> functions move your code away 15:35:20 <andythenorth> that can be bad when you're trying to figure out 'wtf?' 15:35:42 <andythenorth> function in another file calling another function in another file is a PITA 15:35:46 <Rhamphoryncus> Can be. Abstraction isn't a silver bullet 15:35:52 <andythenorth> lots of project-grep = dull 15:36:07 <andythenorth> ideally all the code you need *right now* fits in the viewport 15:36:19 <Rhamphoryncus> I agree 15:36:24 <andythenorth> if it doesn't fit in the viewport, reduce the scope of your feature :) 15:36:31 * andythenorth has a 13" screen 15:36:40 <andythenorth> other people I work with have 22" dual screen 15:36:51 <Rhamphoryncus> But the reality is I use grep as my IDE ;) 15:37:07 <andythenorth> viewport may be a flawed measurement :) 15:37:23 <andythenorth> ho. a new truck graphic 15:37:31 * andythenorth has started actually...drawing 15:37:48 <Rhamphoryncus> What ho! 15:40:20 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-178-020.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 15:42:47 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 15:42:47 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:42:53 * andythenorth ponders curling bandit.cfg from web 15:46:32 <andythenorth> bah 15:46:35 <andythenorth> slows down building 15:47:20 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@172.Red-193-153-66.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 15:47:55 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.87.106] has joined #openttd 15:54:39 *** JVassie_ [~James@2.27.87.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:56:23 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 15:56:40 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 15:57:57 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.11.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:58:39 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.11.192] has joined #openttd 16:01:05 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 16:18:13 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.11.192] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:23:28 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [] 16:23:31 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ee80.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:30:32 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 16:37:12 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has joined #openttd 16:49:15 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-23-41-5.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:05:20 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24:26 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-23-41-5.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:35:13 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 17:42:35 <andythenorth> quiet 17:48:12 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:52:42 * Rhamphoryncus lurks behind andythenorth 18:05:00 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-23-41-5.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:05:26 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:10:58 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 18:18:03 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r23938 /trunk/src/script/script_scanner.hpp: -Codechange: declare ScriptScanner::Initialize() and make it abstract, make the other overloaded Initialize() protected 18:33:47 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-23-41-5.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:40:36 *** kmichael [b231282d@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 18:42:14 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 18:44:04 <andythenorth> is it exam season? 18:44:11 <andythenorth> can't be the weather luring people out doors 18:44:30 <andythenorth> maybe the european interwebs has iced over 18:45:52 <Rubidium> andythenorth: well, the weather is quite nice for ice skating 18:47:00 <Rubidium> though the last week's weather was very unpredictable (according to the once running the trains) 18:47:28 <andythenorth> anybody want to reimplement eGRVTS in nml? I think it's about 1 day's work + 1 day finding mistakes :P 18:48:06 <Rubidium> i.e. 70-80% of the time the sun could shine last week it did shine, no rain, relatively stable temperatures... 18:49:57 * Rubidium wonders how long it takes until the first real 32bpp or ez NewGRF is released 18:50:06 <andythenorth> won't be me 18:50:19 <andythenorth> eGRVTS would be a good candidate, zeph has EZ sprites for a number of vehicles 18:50:37 <andythenorth> I have a truck set [nearly] framework 18:51:15 <andythenorth> which I am itching to test on some other hapless coder 18:51:43 <andythenorth> as that will uncover strangeness in my thinking 18:52:32 <andythenorth> compiles in ~7s 18:52:37 <andythenorth> :D 19:02:23 <Hirundo> Is there a way to extract all info (at least action0) from eGRVTS into some tracking table? 19:03:53 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.87.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:04:55 <Hirundo> Then the conversion to NML would be quite doable, but manually setting a few dozen properties for more than a few dozen vehicles would feel like a fabulous waste of time 19:05:52 <Hirundo> and then there's still a lot of sprites and loading stages, articulation, etc to fix 19:06:15 <andythenorth> Hirundo: zeph was pretty good about templating his sprites 19:06:29 <andythenorth> eGRVTS is very...modular 19:06:45 <Hirundo> sprites yes, but acc. his statements he writes his NFO in plain hex 19:07:14 <andythenorth> if $someone could parse the nfo into a sane data structure...I could write the other side to parse it into a python config file 19:08:09 <andythenorth> we might never write any nml at all :o 19:08:09 <andythenorth> dict per vehicle would be favourite, or JSON or similar 19:08:14 <andythenorth> or straight into config file 19:08:53 <andythenorth> yes 19:09:03 <andythenorth> that's why I haven't maintenance-patched it for various bugs 19:09:16 <andythenorth> I am not going to spend time with my finger on the screen counting bytes 19:09:22 <Hirundo> I'm looking into grf2html output now 19:09:29 <andythenorth> FIRS nfo->nml conversion script was pretty robust 19:11:40 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.87.106] has joined #openttd 19:13:01 <andythenorth> could parse the dom of the grf2html output 19:13:04 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:14:07 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest2364 19:14:07 *** Guest2364 [~Andy@host86-169-180-203.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:14:07 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-169-180-203.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 19:18:13 <andythenorth> Hirundo: my target config format would be this: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/bandit/repository/entry/src/BANDIT.cfg 19:18:27 <andythenorth> I'm quite interested in learning to write python config files as well as read them 19:18:36 <andythenorth> so I would be happy to figure that out 19:19:31 <Hirundo> as far as i can see, the nfo is quite easy 19:19:46 <Hirundo> there's no action 6/7/9/D 19:20:01 <Hirundo> only actions 0-4, 8 and one action 11 (sound) 19:22:22 <andythenorth> plausible conversion then 19:22:34 <Hirundo> varaction2 are mostly for articulation only 19:23:15 <Hirundo> the few graphics switches I could find are for trailers, which seem to share IDs 19:23:26 <andythenorth> yes 19:23:36 <andythenorth> I kind of know the eGRVTS codebase, as we copied it for HEQS 19:23:41 <andythenorth> zeph coded v1 of HEQS 19:23:44 <andythenorth> then I took over 19:23:49 <andythenorth> I commented it ;P 19:24:08 <andythenorth> and added formatting :P 19:24:12 <andythenorth> took a while :) 19:25:38 <andythenorth> I don't share trailer IDs anymore 19:25:42 <andythenorth> we have plenty spare ;) 19:26:09 *** kmichael [b231282d@ircip3.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 19:27:26 <Hirundo> 249 vehids total 19:27:30 <Hirundo> of which 31 trailers 19:27:47 <Hirundo> No wonder, I tended to get lost in the P-list 19:28:02 <andythenorth> I wouldn't mind manually redoing all the properties 19:28:05 <andythenorth> tedious, but not hard 19:29:15 * Hirundo would mind tediousness 19:29:32 <andythenorth> but I really don't want to sort out the pngs + realsprites 19:29:34 <andythenorth> I hate doing that 19:29:59 <andythenorth> i.e. rebuilding the templated offsets etc 19:30:28 <andythenorth> BANDIT codebase uses the NML template system btw 19:30:37 <andythenorth> for spritesets 19:31:12 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 19:31:20 <Hirundo> you could ask zeph, if he has any useful template info for the sprites 19:31:40 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 19:32:27 <Hirundo> then some python / PIL script should work 19:32:37 <andythenorth> I could also ask him if he minds the conversion :) 19:32:43 <andythenorth> if he likes nfo, this might annoy him 19:33:07 <Hirundo> sounds like a good thing (tm) 19:33:09 <andythenorth> could be the first grfcontainer2 grf though? 19:33:22 <andythenorth> or the first with EZ anyway 19:33:44 <Hirundo> which reminds me 19:33:49 <Hirundo> I should be working on NML 19:34:08 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23939 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed) 19:34:08 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 19:34:08 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 4 changes by VoyagerOne 19:34:08 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 4 changes by Rubidium 19:34:08 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_ 19:34:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by NG 19:34:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv 19:34:21 <Hirundo> instead of discussing, which tends to *not* produce working grfs out of thin air 19:34:35 <Hirundo> Fixing NML doesn't either, but might help ;-) 19:34:43 * andythenorth finds monologue necessary prelude to coding ;) 19:34:48 <andythenorth> dialogue is even better 19:40:26 <andythenorth> bbl 19:40:27 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-169-180-203.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 19:47:59 <Elukka> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=152599 19:48:02 <Elukka> what station set is that on the left? 19:48:16 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@172.Red-193-153-66.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:50:59 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-169-180-203.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 19:52:07 *** flaa [~flaa@089-101-093077.ntlworld.ie] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:52:39 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 19:57:39 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.160.130] has joined #openttd 20:04:19 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6D074.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:06:17 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:33:54 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 20:34:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r23940 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: remove superfluous semicolons 20:40:38 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:42:31 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@194.Red-83-52-212.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 20:51:37 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-77-121.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 20:57:21 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-39-107.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:09:29 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 21:20:47 <Hirundo> Yexo: Doing #3571 could cause grf breakage in some corner cases, is that acceptable? 21:21:36 <Hirundo> 'corner cases' being AFAIK only grfs with vehicles that have capacity but are not refittable 21:22:09 <Hirundo> see http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3571 <- planetmaker ? 21:36:00 *** amews_aj [~amews_aj@ip-23-34.bnaa.dk] has joined #openttd 21:37:02 <amews_aj> Hi, After upgrading 1.1.3 -> 1.1.5, the fonts are all weird. Tried resetting cfg file, but still fonts have changed. Wrong size, nonbold etc. Is this on purpose, or is something wrong? 21:38:33 <SmatZ> does that happen when you switch the game to English? 21:38:50 <amews_aj> let me check 21:39:01 <SmatZ> what could have changed, is that the translation in 1.1.5 now includes some characters that are not included in the base font 21:39:08 <SmatZ> so it can't be used 21:39:53 <amews_aj> where do I change language? 21:40:13 <SmatZ> in the Game Options 21:40:30 <SmatZ> (not Advanced Settings) 21:40:50 <amews_aj> that fixed it. 21:41:02 <amews_aj> Can't I force a the old look on the translated version ? 21:41:45 <Rubidium> maybe an update of OpenGFX helps 21:42:11 <amews_aj> Rubidium, when installing 1.1.5 I chose to download opengfx 21:42:17 <amews_aj> shouldn't that cause it to be updated? 21:43:15 <amews_aj> opengfx 0.4.2 21:43:28 <SmatZ> in trunk, Danish looks fine... but it might be because of FS#5055 21:43:56 <SmatZ> which added letters like "OE" 21:44:20 <Rubidium> SmatZ: only to the original 21:44:22 <amews_aj> I think the letter "Ã" was included in translations of previous versions as well 21:45:01 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 21:45:09 <Rubidium> amews_aj: is 1.1.4 okay? 21:45:15 <amews_aj> haven't tried it 21:45:28 *** APTX_ [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 21:46:20 <amews_aj> Rubidium, should I? 21:46:24 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:47:48 <planetmaker> Hirundo: the question is: what's a good default cargo type? 21:48:04 <planetmaker> or should that rather be done explicitly by the player? IMHO yes 21:48:14 <planetmaker> then probably as a separate "property" 21:48:27 <planetmaker> though that's... difficult. It'll have to be a list property 21:48:32 <Rubidium> amews_aj: not needed, no different langauge updates there 21:48:46 <Rubidium> amews_aj: does 1.1.3 (with opengfx 0.4.2) still show the bold characters? 21:48:47 <Hirundo> planetmaker: why? you can specify only one, right? 21:48:48 <amews_aj> Well I just did, same thing 21:48:55 <amews_aj> Rubidium, trying that next 21:49:09 <planetmaker> Hirundo: yes-ish. But what if that cargo doesn't exist? 21:49:19 <andythenorth> climates... 21:50:22 <Hirundo> planetmaker: then it picks first refittable, if possible using the order in the CTT 21:50:48 <SmatZ> hmm 1.1 looks fine for me @ Danish 21:50:55 <Hirundo> unless the vehicle is not refittable at all, in which case the default cargo is the only cargo and refitting is not possible (like the default vehs) 21:51:01 <Rubidium> SmatZ: which opengfx are you using? 21:51:02 <amews_aj> Rubidium, no, 1.1.3 is also bad now 21:51:55 <__ln__> Danish shouldn't be using any unusual characters (non-Latin-1) so it's a bit weird. 21:51:56 <SmatZ> Rubidium: ok, not with OpenGFX 21:52:10 <SmatZ> it looks fine with original graphics, but not with opengfx ... 21:52:24 <SmatZ> 0.4.2 21:52:44 <amews_aj> so what to do to solve it? Bugfix? Something I can do temporarily ? 21:52:53 *** Chris_Booth_ [~chatzilla@client-86-23-41-5.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:52:53 <Rubidium> amews_aj: did you ever use the graphics of Transport Tycoon Deluxe? 21:53:37 <amews_aj> I don't have the game, and using it without a copy of the game would not be legal I suppose 21:54:04 <Rubidium> amews_aj: section 9 of the readme has a short bit about how to override the font 21:54:49 <Rubidium> planetmaker: amews_aj "wants" to report a regression in OpenGFX w.r.t. glyphs gone missing for Danish in OpenTTD 1.1.x 21:54:59 <amews_aj> Rubidium, I did that, but I cannot find the default fonts 21:55:34 <Rubidium> amews_aj: the "default" font is in opengfx, but when characters (glyphs) are missing it asks the operating system for the best font 21:55:41 <planetmaker> hm ? 21:56:51 <amews_aj> Rubidium, so I can't get the "default" font back by manual override? It's not a standard font ? 21:56:55 <Rubidium> planetmaker: opengfx 0.4.2, Danish translation: in OpenTTD 1.1.x misses glyphs, in 1.2.x is does miss glyphs 21:57:05 <Rubidium> amews_aj: exactly 21:57:12 <amews_aj> :( 21:57:17 <planetmaker> in both versions? hm 21:57:31 <amews_aj> Rubidium, Would it work downgrading opengfx, or only if I downgrade to openttd 1.1.3 as well? 21:57:35 <Rubidium> planetmaker: in 1.2.x it does NOT miss glyphs ;) 21:57:43 <planetmaker> ah, ok 21:57:47 <planetmaker> that I wondered 21:57:48 <Rubidium> amews_aj: you could downgrade opengfx 21:58:04 <amews_aj> ok 21:58:05 <planetmaker> it might as well be that I made the checks to strict. 21:58:14 <Rubidium> but you need to manually find the older version 21:58:21 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-23-41-5.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:58:27 <amews_aj> Rubidium, not on a build server ? 21:58:28 <Rubidium> of opengfx 21:58:36 *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth 21:58:38 <planetmaker> amews_aj:: Do you know which OpenGFX you used before? 21:58:44 <amews_aj> unfortunately, no 21:58:48 <planetmaker> which version? 21:58:53 * andythenorth -> bed 21:58:59 <Rubidium> amews_aj: yes, but using the 1.1.3 installer will not get the older opengfx 21:59:04 <amews_aj> the one that was installed when openttd 1.1.3 was out 21:59:12 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I'm assuming it's monospace related 21:59:41 <planetmaker> well... I specifically rewrote that part already once ;-) 21:59:47 <Rubidium> amews_aj: you need http://www.openttd.org/en/download-opengfx/0.3.7 I think 21:59:51 <planetmaker> and have a special section for monospace 22:00:03 <planetmaker> which simply is not included for openttd 1.1.x 22:00:17 <amews_aj> Rubidium, Ok. Maybe I'll just go with english UI at the moment. 22:00:30 <planetmaker> amews_aj: in order to fix: which strings do not work anymore? 22:00:48 <amews_aj> planetmaker, well all of them. The strings are there, but with wrong font 22:00:48 <planetmaker> I *need* something to pinpoint in order to address this bug 22:01:04 <planetmaker> what is "wrong" font? 22:01:22 <amews_aj> Don't know what font it is... Want a screenshot? 22:01:26 <planetmaker> can you show me (screenshot)? 22:01:45 <planetmaker> post them to imagebin.com 22:01:58 <planetmaker> imagebin.org 22:01:59 <planetmaker> sorry 22:04:12 <amews_aj> http://imagebin.org/198586 Don't mind it says 1.1.3 - it's the same with 1.1.5 22:04:37 *** andythenorth [~Andy@host86-169-180-203.range86-169.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 22:05:14 <planetmaker> and... that's how it should or should not look? 22:05:22 <planetmaker> (It's not the game-supplied font) 22:05:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r23941 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): -Add: support for clang 22:05:41 <amews_aj> should not 22:05:51 <Rubidium> planetmaker: that's showing the opengfx font isn't chosen 22:05:58 <Rubidium> whereas in 1.2.0 it is chosen 22:06:14 <Rubidium> and according to amews_aj the opengfx font was chosen in an earlier version of opengfx as well 22:06:57 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:07:20 <Rubidium> but I'll try bisecting 22:07:26 <Rubidium> 812 good, tip bad 22:09:52 <amews_aj> Rubidium, planetmaker, Can a bugfix be expected anytime soon ? 22:10:18 <SmatZ> amews_aj: 1.2.0-beta4 should work for you ;) 22:10:21 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-104.bb.dnainternet.fi] has left #openttd [] 22:10:26 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-104.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 22:10:33 <amews_aj> SmatZ, But I cannot play on a lot of servers with 1.2.0 22:10:46 <Rubidium> amews_aj: depends on what you think is soon 22:10:53 <planetmaker> :-) 22:11:23 <Rubidium> if soon is in astrological or paleotological time scales, then yes 22:11:28 <planetmaker> amews_aj: with 1.2.0 you cannot play on any :-P 22:11:55 <amews_aj> Of course :) But any guesses? (I won't complain if it isn't correct) 22:12:03 <SmatZ> #openttdcoop.stable allows you to play beta4 ;) 22:12:32 <planetmaker> amews_aj: you'll probably have to estimate my time budget 22:12:37 <planetmaker> Even I myself fail at that 22:12:41 <SmatZ> :( 22:12:47 <Rubidium> darn it... opengfx doesn't compile anymore with my image boundary patch :( 22:12:48 <amews_aj> heh :D 22:13:10 <planetmaker> there will be one before April 22:13:30 <amews_aj> I am a developer myself. Is it an easy fix that I will be able to do myself ? 22:14:02 <planetmaker> the difficult thing here probably is building OpenGFX. And knowing the NewGRF language 22:14:07 <Rubidium> depends on what the bug is 22:14:14 <amews_aj> oh, it's a custom language? 22:14:16 <planetmaker> Technically it's probably not that complicated. But what Rubidium says 22:14:29 <planetmaker> It first needs to be found where it is 22:14:31 <amews_aj> Rubidium, just sounded like you thought to know what caused the bug ? 22:15:38 <Rubidium> my statement was in the order of: "last time this car was in the garage you did mess with the motor management, so the malfunction of the motor might have to do with that" 22:15:48 <amews_aj> hehe :D 22:16:14 <Rubidium> and bisecting isn't going as I hoped 22:16:29 <Rubidium> hit already two non-working revs 22:16:43 <planetmaker> meh 22:16:48 <amews_aj> Oh well, english is fine. Is there any release plan for 1.2.0 yet? I mean, maybe it's not worth looking for the bug in 1.1.5 now ? 22:17:00 <Rubidium> 852 is good 22:17:06 <Rubidium> amews_aj: it's not a bug in OpenTTD 22:17:27 <Rubidium> it's a bug in OpenGFX, which is a separate project with a separate release schedule 22:17:35 <Yexo> amews_aj: there is no official release plan, but look at the release dates for 1.1 and 1.0 to get some idea 22:17:41 <amews_aj> Rubidium, well no, but it's a combination. Works with 1.2.0 you said 22:18:13 <Rubidium> then ~7-ish weeks if nothing major comes up 22:18:34 <SmatZ> also... what has changed between 1.1.1 and 1.1.5, so the text is so misplaced now? http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/screenshot_111.png vs. http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/screenshot_115.png 22:19:15 <planetmaker> That looks disgusting, SmatZ :-( 22:19:18 <Rubidium> SmatZ: look at fontcache.cpp 22:19:29 <Rubidium> I've got the feeling the font is bad though 22:19:52 <amews_aj> I noticed the "X"'s on the windows are misplaced as well here 22:20:06 <amews_aj> but maybe just due to wrong font 22:20:44 <Rubidium> SmatZ: I guess it's r23038 22:21:07 <SmatZ> @fs 23038 22:21:07 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/23038 22:21:11 <SmatZ> errr..... 22:21:19 <SmatZ> @commit 23038 22:21:19 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Commit by peter1138 :: r23038 trunk/src/fontcache.cpp (2011-10-18 17:57:42 UTC) 22:21:20 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: -Fix: Check that the selected font size is valid the font face in use and choose the nearest size to that selected if not. Font metrics should then just work. 22:22:03 <Rubidium> 870 bad 22:23:58 <SmatZ> Rubidium: indeed, reverting r23038 on 1.1 fixes the misalignment 22:24:13 <Rubidium> for that font 22:27:21 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I suspect 858 (1139-1150) 22:28:16 *** peteris [~peteris@78.84.97.170] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:28:28 <planetmaker> Thanks for testing, Rubi. I'll check it this week 22:29:31 <Rubidium> though when bisection is done I'll know if it's really that revision 22:29:59 <planetmaker> I created an issue for OpenGFX: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3690#change-9607 22:33:13 <Rubidium> 856 good 22:35:12 <Rubidium> it might be that 1.2.0 is smarter about missing glyphs 22:35:29 <Rubidium> 858 bad 22:35:53 <planetmaker> IIRC we took out a few special glyphs from the checks 22:37:19 <Rubidium> nope... doesn't seem to be smater 22:38:01 <Rubidium> 857 good 22:39:37 <Rubidium> oh... 22:42:01 <Rubidium> r23582 'fixes' it in trunk 22:42:41 <Rubidium> so whatever characters were removed due to that in opengfx should remain in the branch for 1.1.x and earlier 22:43:42 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 22:45:18 *** APTX_ [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:51:43 <Rubidium> amews_aj: my initial guess about the bug in opengfx was wrong and I fear a proper review to fix the complete bug requires quite some checking. So I doubt it'll be a quick fix 22:51:54 <amews_aj> ok 22:53:17 <Rubidium> nevertheless replacing opengfx with 0.3.7 should be a good short term fix 22:54:53 <amews_aj> There are no important bugfixes that I will miss then ? 22:55:33 <Rubidium> depends what you perceive to be important 22:55:52 <amews_aj> Guess I'll just take a look at the changelog 22:56:09 <Rubidium> it's mostly minor graphics issues and improved graphics you'll be missing out 22:58:36 <Wolf01> 'night 22:58:41 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host101-141-dynamic.31-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 23:01:49 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [] 23:10:55 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido] 23:14:36 <frosch123> night 23:14:39 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f4c31.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:47 *** amews_aj [~amews_aj@ip-23-34.bnaa.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:27:18 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-104.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:27:56 *** PeterT [~PeterT@c-50-136-62-78.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 23:28:15 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-104.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 23:28:43 *** PeterT [~PeterT@c-50-136-62-78.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Goodbye] 23:31:07 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 23:34:07 *** TdlQ__ [~TdlQ@hq.z77.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:37:04 *** Firartix [~artixds@108.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:41:06 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-23-41-5.brhm.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 11.0/20120208012847]] 23:46:00 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BA12.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:50:24 <Terkhen> good night 23:56:19 <planetmaker> good night here, too 23:56:45 *** nobody_else [4e61ec08@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 23:59:55 *** nobody_else [4e61ec08@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit []