Log for #openttd on 12th February 2012:
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00:03:47  <andythenorth> ho
00:03:54  <andythenorth> BROS falls off the rails again :P
00:04:16  <andythenorth> also....time for bed
00:04:19  <andythenorth> good night
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00:06:43  <Terkhen> good night
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00:35:10  <Nat_as> is there anyway to make docks more intresting?
00:35:22  <Nat_as> or are there limitations hardwired?
00:35:37  <Nat_as> because Piers and container cranes would be awesome.
00:36:14  <Nat_as> right now you can't even put more than one dock next to each other.
00:37:49  <Rhamphoryncus> I haven't seen any indication that there is.  All the station newgrf stuff is specific to train stations
00:38:12  <Nat_as> Yeah it's kind of a bummer
00:38:37  <Nat_as> if there was a new docks grif that let you build piers like stations (length and width)
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00:38:40  <Nat_as> that would be awesome
00:39:10  <Rhamphoryncus> IMO, the station newgrf needs to be generalized such that most tiles aren't part of a transportation type
00:39:24  <Nat_as> different styles for different cargos, like passingers, oil, and containers
00:39:39  <Nat_as> yeah stations ought to be cleaned up
00:40:35  <Nat_as> and Demolish should not blow the whole damn thing up
00:40:45  <Nat_as> i know bulldozer can remove indivudual tiles
00:40:53  <Rhamphoryncus> heh yeah
00:40:54  <Nat_as> but then I also have to remove the track underneath
00:41:07  <Nat_as> sometimes i'm not thinking and blow it up because I just wanted to get rid of one station row
00:41:17  <Rhamphoryncus> yup
00:41:22  <Nat_as> also it should be cheaper to restyle existing stations than to build new ones
00:41:28  <Nat_as> and not tick off the local authority
00:41:29  <Rhamphoryncus> I've blown up a station by removing a non-track tyle
00:41:37  <Nat_as> yeah that's the worst
00:41:44  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
00:42:45  <Nat_as> custom airports would be cool to, like in simutrans
00:42:50  <Nat_as> but probably hard to implement
00:43:01  <Nat_as> at least not without invalidating the existing ones.
00:43:50  <Rhamphoryncus> It's doable
00:44:08  <Nat_as> yeah, simutrans proves this
00:44:55  <Nat_as> Just have taxyways count as roads for airplanes only, runways have a minimum length to count as a small or large airport. Teminals and Air depots exist, ect ect/
00:45:04  <Rhamphoryncus> airports have a set of paths the planes take, much like train signal blocks.  You'd need to be able to manipulate and group them together
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00:45:25  <Nat_as> yeah that's the hard part
00:45:33  <Nat_as> they aren
00:45:41  <Nat_as> aren't quite like roads.
00:45:53  <Nat_as> aircraft take up a whole block and can't pass each other.
00:46:05  <Rhamphoryncus> oi, I forgot about the length thing.  You could actually require longer and wider runways for bigger planes like the a380 in the aviator set
00:46:43  <Rhamphoryncus> On the flip side, I would design a MUCH more efficient airport ;)
00:47:17  <Nat_as> yes, right now airplanes are classified as small or large (IRL it's light and heavy), and if large airplanes try to land at a small airport there is a chance of crashing.
00:47:45  <Nat_as> yeah simutrans airports are much more space efficient.
00:48:12  <Nat_as> i hate how you have to make an internatonal airport if you want more than 3 terminal places
00:48:21  <Nat_as> what if I have cargo planes waiting to load 100%
00:49:10  <Nat_as> ...
00:49:23  <Rhamphoryncus> yup.  Switching to intercontinental is something you just do everywhere ASAP
00:49:35  <Rhamphoryncus> Planes need a new mechanic to balance them better
00:49:45  <Nat_as> man, looking at the Newgrif tutorial, I can say that's one thing where we have more advanced code than Simutrans.
00:49:54  <Nat_as> I sugested airplanes being able to mix cargo types
00:50:04  <Nat_as> they trade flexibility for inefficiency.
00:50:17  <Nat_as> they can move anything anywhere, but cost lots of money.
00:50:19  <Rhamphoryncus> I mean better than the chance to crash
00:50:30  <Nat_as> oh lol
00:50:43  <Nat_as> really airplanes are more safe than trains or cars IRL
00:50:43  <Rhamphoryncus> hrm
00:50:49  <Rhamphoryncus> yup
00:51:02  <Nat_as> High speed trains are really dangerous.
00:51:45  <Rhamphoryncus> I was just thinking, YACD with different pricing brackets depending on time.  Some passengers may really want a fast flight and pay more for it
00:51:55  <Nat_as> oh yeah
00:52:24  <Nat_as> i also suggested differentiating between commuters and travelers.
00:53:25  <Rhamphoryncus> The game would have to estimate travel times to only put those passengers on the plane though
00:53:52  <Rhamphoryncus> why?
00:54:08  <Nat_as> I'd rather see massive improvements to cargo desitnation handling before that.
00:55:49  <Nat_as> oh, commuters don't care about being stuffed into things and will travel both ways
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00:56:18  <Nat_as> Travelers do care and will want to go somewhere as quick as possible and stay there
00:56:30  <Nat_as> that might be oversimple though.
00:56:42  <Nat_as> Tourism industries would be cool
00:58:18  <Rhamphoryncus> That could be simplified in to comfort levels
00:58:31  <Nat_as> yes
00:58:36  <Nat_as> the
00:58:59  <Nat_as> The "Passingers go both ways" thing however could be applied to all passingers
00:59:15  <Nat_as> balanced by simply reducing the amount of passingers created by half
00:59:42  <Nat_as> giant trains that move people from a big city to a small city and return empty are silly.
00:59:46  <Nat_as> and a bit disturbing.
00:59:59  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
01:00:12  <Rhamphoryncus> I'd put that on cargodest again
01:00:12  <Nat_as> reminds me of the "Fema death camp" that turned out to be an Amtrack facility
01:00:35  <Nat_as> DON'T GET IN THE TRAINS!
01:01:20  <Elukka> my favorite part of conspiracy theorists is how they ignore real conspiracies
01:01:30  <Rhamphoryncus> heh yup
01:02:13  <__ln__> wtf is a passinger?
01:02:30  <frosch123>
01:03:45  <Rhamphoryncus> the passingers, they're everywhere!
01:03:56  <Rhamphoryncus> They're what happen when you feed a passenger after midnight
01:04:07  <Elukka> they are much like the sheeple but a bit less dangerous
01:04:08  <Elukka>
01:04:24  <Nat_as> lol
01:04:51  <frosch123> DorpsGek is our sheeple
01:06:03  <Elukka> the passingers skulk through abandoned stations and derelict sidings at night
01:08:24  <frosch123> night
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01:22:02  <Nat_as> HA
01:22:08  <Nat_as> I made a cute little psudo subway system
01:22:12  <Nat_as> but I had to cheat to afford it
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01:24:39  <Wolf01> 'night
01:24:43  <__ln__> night Wolf01
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01:37:32  <Nat_as> hmm, are signals strictly necessary exiting stations?
01:38:00  <Nat_as> my subway layout seems to sugest they are not, but that might just be because the trains are as short as possible and get out of the way quickly
01:38:15  <Nat_as> I have a two platform set up leading into a double track,
01:38:32  <Nat_as> immediatly outside the station is an X allowing trains to switch to either platform when arriving
01:38:47  <Nat_as> and then there are route signals seperating the left and right raills into coming and going
01:39:09  <Nat_as> I used to put signals between the X and the stations but I left them out this time to save room and I don't notice any issue
01:40:21  <Rhamphoryncus> entering or exiting the station?
01:40:28  <Nat_as> exiting
01:40:38  <Rhamphoryncus> hrm.  I'd have to see the layout
01:40:52  <Nat_as> I have Double tracks, Route signals, a cross, and the station itself
01:41:10  <Nat_as> it used to be double tracks, route signals, a cross, normal signals, and the station itself
01:41:36  <Rhamphoryncus> But the big caveat on most of this is normal block signals treat all the track as a single block, but if you're using path signals then the train can switch in to path mode and may not need signals
01:44:57  <Rhamphoryncus> That's a terminus station?  It's the end of the line?
01:45:35  <Nat_as> it was, but i added another
01:45:40  <Nat_as> and it's still working fine
01:45:46  <Rhamphoryncus> huh
01:46:46  <Nat_as> it could be that the trains are too short and too fast to hit each other
01:46:59  <Nat_as> I want to know if I could replicate this building cargo routes
01:47:01  <Nat_as> with big trains
01:47:55  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm experimenting now
01:48:19  <Rhamphoryncus> For terminus it definitely works
01:49:33  <Rhamphoryncus> This is all 1-way?  Or two-way?
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01:53:19  <Rhamphoryncus> Okay, what happens if you have path signal, cross, station, cross, normal signal, and this is all 1-way (they continue through the station to the next station), when they're at the path signal they grab a path up until the next stopping point
01:53:44  <Rhamphoryncus> For a terminus station this is the end of the line.  For a non-terminus station it's whatever signal is after
01:54:28  <Rhamphoryncus> Beware, with a cross after the station they may choose to swap, then sit there and load for a while, preventing any other train from leaving (because they took the path)
01:55:40  <Rhamphoryncus> There is something to help you with this.  Click on the gear at the top left, advanced settings, interface, display options, set Show reserved tracks to on
02:00:22  <Nat_as> oh
02:00:35  <Nat_as> it seems that tracks are reserved when a train exits the station
02:00:42  <Nat_as> they count as signal blocks
02:01:40  <Nat_as> I really wish subways and underwater tunnels were possible
02:01:41  <Nat_as> :c
02:01:50  <Rhamphoryncus> they're reserved from before the train enters the station
02:02:05  <Rhamphoryncus> A train won't go unless it has a stopping point
02:04:08  <Nat_as> no i mean it automaticly reserves as the train exits
02:05:45  <Rhamphoryncus> hrm
02:05:57  <Nat_as> or rather they become reserved as the train enters the station and stay that way till it leaves the block
02:06:16  <Rhamphoryncus> oh, that is what I said
02:06:31  <Nat_as> lol my silly
02:07:19  <Rhamphoryncus> I notice that have a cross immediately after the station irks the pathfinder.  It takes a second or two after the train is clear before another train will enter.  It probably has a special case for signals immediately after the station
02:07:56  <Rhamphoryncus> having*
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02:08:21  <Rhamphoryncus> It's much better to have a cross before the station, then signals immediately after
02:09:31  <Nat_as> yes but that doubles the lenght of the station
02:09:56  <Nat_as> which is bad if you are trying to build in a city
02:10:23  <Rhamphoryncus> .. doubles?
02:10:24  <Nat_as> how hard would it be to make OTTD maps layerd?
02:10:35  <Rhamphoryncus> Hard.  I still want to do it though :)
02:10:45  <Nat_as> they would have to change the memory allocation of each tile right?
02:11:27  <Nat_as> but it would allow cool things like subways, elivated raill, and airplanes crashing into tall buildings because you put an airport in the center of a city.
02:11:29  <Rhamphoryncus> Redesign that, the save format, the path finding, the tools for building
02:11:45  <Nat_as> pathfinding?
02:12:16  <Nat_as> isn't that a function of the route shape? it should always be discribable as a web right?
02:12:19  <Rhamphoryncus> huh, that gives me an interesting thought: when building a custom airport you could "build" the flight path it uses to land.  This would prevent buildings from grabbing that space
02:12:20  <Nat_as> even if routes overlap
02:12:32  <Nat_as> yeah that would be cool
02:12:38  <Rhamphoryncus> No, it understands the route as a graph and figures out the optimal way to get there
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02:13:58  <Nat_as> yeah that's what I thought
02:14:09  <Nat_as> making a map 3d should not effect that
02:14:25  <Nat_as> anyways, 'building' air routes would be cool.
02:14:49  <Rhamphoryncus> The algorithms are usually pretty abstract, but the actual code will need some changes to handle it
02:14:56  <Nat_as> maybe small airports don't need it, but large ones become dangerous if you don't.
02:15:09  <Nat_as> the biggest problem is changing the memory
02:15:15  <Rhamphoryncus> AI's would need work
02:15:17  <Arafangion> Nat_as: Aren't they like boats...  No chance of crashes in air?
02:15:26  <Arafangion> Even if they overlap.
02:15:28  <Rhamphoryncus> No, memory is easy :)
02:15:36  <Nat_as> Well this sugestion would allow air crashes >:3
02:15:48  <Nat_as> so it's just three easy problems/
02:16:00  <Arafangion> Nat_as: Realistic air traffic management is very tricky.
02:16:21  <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_as: if you build a landing path then there's nothing to crash in to
02:16:27  <Arafangion> You have corridors, and modern planes monitor nearby planes and ensure that they keep the right distance, etc.
02:17:16  <Arafangion> Mid-air crashes are relatively rare, except for airports.
02:17:47  <Nat_as> I know
02:17:56  <Nat_as> I used to be in the air force learning to be an ATC
02:17:58  <Nat_as> it's hard
02:18:03  <Nat_as> hence why I am here now
02:18:07  <Rhamphoryncus> If you're arguing realism then compared to trains they essentially never happen.  That's not the issue though.  They need a better balancing factor
02:18:15  <Arafangion> True.
02:18:23  <Arafangion> Right now planes ruin the fun of the game.
02:18:44  <Nat_as> but it would be cool to 'build' takeoff and landing coridoors, and holding fixes and such
02:19:02  <Nat_as> I'm imagining giant transparent radar display symbols that are layered over the map
02:19:04  <Arafangion> We also need more helicopters.
02:19:09  <Nat_as> oh yes
02:19:23  <Arafangion> As the game progresses, the options in planes and airports become severely restricted.
02:19:42  <Nat_as> Boats should have bigger docks, Airplanes should have custom layouts, and trains should have subways
02:20:08  <Rhamphoryncus> You forgot trucks
02:20:18  <Nat_as> uhh trucks
02:20:19  <Nat_as> Idno
02:20:24  <Arafangion> What about trucks?
02:20:28  <Nat_as> No idea
02:20:37  <Nat_as> I'm here for the trains
02:20:44  <Nat_as> :P
02:20:52  <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: What about trucks? :)
02:21:04  <Arafangion> I think the trucks are all fine, but maintaining them is a bitch .
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02:21:10  <Rhamphoryncus> Their stations need work too
02:21:16  <Nat_as> although i supose trucks would benifit from tunnels and sky bridges the same way trains would
02:21:36  <Nat_as> HIGHWAYS!
02:21:59  <Nat_as> one way roads
02:22:13  <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: They have lots of options with stations, though.
02:22:31  <Rhamphoryncus> garbage and not garbage?
02:22:35  <Nat_as> stations have lots of options, what they need are a coherent slice of options.
02:22:45  <Nat_as> take the best ones and put them into a pack
02:22:52  <Nat_as> we need more automatic stations.
02:22:56  <Nat_as> and more non station tiles.
02:23:06  <Arafangion> The main issue I have with trucks, is that they usually just go for the closest station, rather than the most 'ideal' station.
02:23:23  <Nat_as> also non station buildings that do shit
02:23:28  <Nat_as> like hotels would be nice.
02:24:09  <Nat_as> Raillroad Tycoon3 had hotels and bars that gave you money for passengers leaving and arriving at a station.
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02:25:23  <Rhamphoryncus> Arafangion: they *have* code to pick empty stations, it just fails fairly often
02:26:17  <Rhamphoryncus> Actually, that's probably one of the best things to really work on.  It's totally achievable without significant consequences.  Unlike everything else we've mentioned here.
02:26:29  <Nat_as> lol
02:26:39  <Nat_as> fix trucks first
02:26:44  <Nat_as> even though nobody cares about them
02:26:45  <Nat_as> :V
02:27:31  <Rhamphoryncus> I've actually found trucks are often the most profitable
02:27:58  <Arafangion> Trucks require the least setup, and somehow, don't seem to be as sensitive to slow cargo delivery.
02:28:10  <Arafangion> But they're a PITA to manage.
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02:32:00  <Nat_as> yes I hate trucks because of how hard route management is in this game
02:32:18  <Rhamphoryncus> Do you use shared order lists?
02:32:27  <Nat_as> another feature I wish this game had from simutrans is route handing separate from vehicle handling.
02:32:31  <Nat_as> shared order lists?
02:32:51  <Nat_as> you mean like when you click on another train to copy it's orders?
02:33:13  <Nat_as> or is there a better way to quickly change several vehicle's orders at once?
02:34:12  <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: Managing the shared order lists is also PITA. :)
02:34:19  <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: How do you keep track of those lists?
02:34:29  <Rhamphoryncus> Make a group for each list
02:34:36  <Nat_as> where are shared order lists?
02:34:43  <Rhamphoryncus> Put one truck in to it then use "add shared vehicles
02:34:43  <Arafangion> I must be using an old OTTD.
02:34:55  <Rhamphoryncus> naw, the features are well hidden :P
02:35:05  <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_as: ctrl-click when duplicating or cloning
02:35:36  <Rhamphoryncus> or select an existing vehicle, click "go to", then ctrl-click on a vehicle you want to join with
02:35:53  <Nat_as> oh I know how to copy orders
02:36:15  <Nat_as> I was wondering if there were sets of orders stored independently of veichiles that you could quickly switch into and out of
02:36:16  <Rhamphoryncus> It's not a copy.  Using ctrl makes it shared
02:36:18  <Nat_as> :c
02:37:06  <Rhamphoryncus> You can do switching like that *if* you have a dummy truck somewhere with those orders.
02:37:51  <Nat_as> hmm
02:38:04  <Nat_as> maybe if there was an administrative building that stored sets of orders
02:38:06  <Nat_as> that would be cool
02:38:17  <Rhamphoryncus> Also, route management is what I'm working on.  It will do this
02:38:31  <Rhamphoryncus> Create a route first, then create vehicles to use it
02:38:36  <Nat_as> so you don't have to get annoying popups of "train is waiting in the depot.
02:38:52  <Nat_as> and it would be an excuse for pretty non track buildings
02:38:57  <Nat_as> which are always nice.
02:39:18  <Rhamphoryncus> Anyway, afk for a few hours at least
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03:57:21  <TheStick> Hey, I've got a question...
03:57:49  <TheStick> ...are there binaries for a "dedicated server" version of OpenTTD on a generic Linux machine?
04:01:44  <Arafangion> TheStick: Is that different from the regular binary?
04:01:53  <TheStick> Yes...
04:02:01  <TheStick> that it only works as a server for a multiplayer game...
04:02:12  <TheStick> ...that is, zero graphics, sero gameplay on the machine itself.
04:02:16  <TheStick> *zero gameplay
04:02:40  <TheStick> Because I'm getting this error:
04:02:42  <TheStick> error while loading shared libraries: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
04:03:11  <glx> you have to build dedicated version yourself IIRC
04:03:27  <TheStick> ...
04:03:36  <Nat_as> YAY OPEN SOURCE!
04:03:40  <TheStick> would I do that on a Windows machine...?
04:04:06  <glx> on windows you just get the normal build
04:04:26  <glx> it has dedicated included
04:04:40  <TheStick> ...really, I have two options.  Compile on this Win7, or sftp and compile on the generic Linux.
04:04:46  <TheStick> Cuz I want it to run off the Linux.
04:05:04  <glx> (same for linux except if you need a full dedicated without X)
04:05:19  <TheStick> Which is what I need.
04:05:31  <glx> compile on linux
04:06:21  <TheStick> Lessee.  Get gzip arc of the source...
04:07:33  <TheStick> ...something tells me this is gonna get messy.
04:07:36  <TheStick> Housekeeping...
04:08:43  <TheStick> Extract...
04:09:08  <glx> you'll need some libs
04:09:20  <TheStick> ...libs from where...?
04:10:56  <glx> from the distribution
04:12:34  <Arafangion> TheStick: What distro are you using, incidentally?
04:12:46  <TheStick> ...of Linus?
04:12:49  <TheStick> *Linux
04:13:06  <Arafangion> TheStick: That's usually what the question applies to, yes. :)
04:13:20  <TheStick> ...long story short, I'm repurposing a MineOS CRUX distro.
04:13:33  <TheStick> ...a distro primarily intended to host a Minecraft server.
04:13:46  <Arafangion> TheStick: Then you'll probably have to figure things out yourself. :)
04:13:58  * Arafangion is biased towards debian.
04:14:18  <TheStick> ...does anyone know which libs I'm gonna need to see if I can't snag 'em from somewhere...?
04:14:43  <glx>
04:14:55  <TheStick> ...oh, yeah.  That would help...;
04:15:02  * TheStick is obviously flying blind here...;
04:15:52  <glx> of course this page is not for dedicated servers
04:16:16  <Arafangion> And SDL isn't neccessarily something that depends on X122
04:16:18  <Arafangion> *X11
04:16:42  <glx> sdl usually requires a window manager
04:17:14  <Arafangion> Usually.
04:17:33  <glx> basically you start with ./configure --enable-dedicated
04:18:44  <TheStick> Error: configure: error: no liblzo2 detected
04:18:54  <TheStick> Hm.
04:18:56  <glx> and the important libs for a server are zlib, liblzma and liblzo
04:19:08  <TheStick> ...let's see if I can't find that anywhere...
04:20:20  <TheStick> ...uhm.  What's the typical extension of a lib that Linux can run...?
04:20:42  <TheStick> ...SO?
04:21:08  <glx> you need the dev versions
04:21:17  <glx> so .a
04:21:27  <glx> and the corresponding headers
04:22:03  <TheStick> (I'm gonna use the 1.1.5 version of OpenTTD, do I really need the dev version?)
04:22:38  <glx> you always need the dev version of libs to compile
04:22:49  <TheStick> ...mmkay then.
04:23:00  <Rhamphoryncus> The -dev *packages* include what you need to compile a program that uses them
04:23:05  <TheStick> So I'm looking for liblzo2.a, right...?
04:23:27  <TheStick> Or
04:23:33  <Rhamphoryncus> Surely that distro has some sort of package system available
04:24:03  <TheStick> apt-get: no
04:24:35  <TheStick> urpmi: no
04:24:41  <TheStick> zypper: no
04:24:57  <TheStick> yum: no
04:25:16  <TheStick> emerge: no
04:25:29  <TheStick> pacman: no
04:25:31  <glx> prt-get maybe
04:25:52  <TheStick> prt-get: no command given. try prt-get help for more information
04:26:03  <TheStick> Lookee that.
04:26:46  <Rhamphoryncus> Check their website
04:26:59  <Rhamphoryncus> It's possible to grab upstream tarballs and install yourself, but doing this repeatedly will cause debris to collect and in the long run will be MUCH more work
04:27:05  <Rhamphoryncus> And require much more learning
04:27:13  <glx> seems they have xz and zlib
04:27:25  <glx> but I don't really see dev versions
04:28:28  <glx> oh they have lzo too
04:30:06  <TheStick> then where would I need to run prt-get depinst openttd?
04:32:19  <TheStick> ...also, I'm getting a worrying error:
04:32:29  <TheStick> [Config error: can't access /usr/ports/*]
04:32:43  <TheStick> Where * is one of "core", "opt", "contrib"
04:36:12  <TheStick> ...ugh.  I gotta go do something.  Be right back.
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04:43:40  <TheStick> Back.
04:56:48  <TheStick> o.o
04:57:03  <TheStick> They don't have a liblzo2 port / package.
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05:35:27  <TheStick> ...ugh.
05:35:44  <TheStick> Ok, so I tried skipping liblzo2 entirely, since I can't seem to find it...
05:35:51  <TheStick> ...and I'm trying to run the Makefile...
05:36:09  <TheStick> ...and I'm smacked with Syntax erros.
05:36:11  <TheStick> *errors
05:38:30  <TheStick> ...uhm.
05:38:45  <TheStick> Is everyone here simply idling...?
05:43:23  <TheStick> ...hello...?
05:45:46  <supermop> hi
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05:46:17  <supermop> most of the people are in europe, so they are asleep
05:46:22  <TheStick> ...
05:46:26  <TheStick> ...figures...;
05:46:56  <TheStick> I'm trying to compile OpenTTD, dedicated-mode, on a Linux Box.
05:47:14  <TheStick> ...unfortunately, I'm getting lovely syntax errors.
05:49:03  <TheStick> ...any possibility I could get a pinch of assistance...?
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05:49:55  <supermop> hmm
05:50:20  <TheStick> (Running a CRUX distro, btw.)
05:50:23  <supermop> i dont know anything about it, but i'd suggest posting in the forum, and waiting until morning
05:50:57  <supermop> or seeing if someone has written something about it in the development subforum
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05:51:15  <TheStick> ...but, then... if it's a syntax error thing, then wouldn't that be a bug...?
05:51:29  <supermop> um
05:51:49  <supermop> i actually dont know really any programming so i am nut sure
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06:23:37  <Rhamphoryncus> TheStick: methinks you'd be better off installing a different distro
06:23:50  <TheStick> :s
06:24:03  <TheStick> Is there anything that can run console-only...?
06:24:09  <Rhamphoryncus> Lots?
06:24:34  <Rhamphoryncus> There's swaths of linux servers quietly powering the world
06:24:51  <Rhamphoryncus> And probably ever major distro has a server version
06:25:13  <TheStick> ...course, I picked CRUX since it (supposedly) has a small memroy footprint, leaving more for Minecraft...
06:25:29  <Arafangion> Ha.
06:25:49  <TheStick> I've only got 0.75 MiB to work with...;
06:25:55  <TheStick> Old box.
06:26:09  <Arafangion> TheStick: You're not getting linux on that, then.
06:26:09  <Rhamphoryncus> of ram?  Not even a meg?
06:26:22  <Rhamphoryncus> Well you CAN, but it won't be any easy, major distro
06:26:24  <TheStick> >.<
06:26:27  <TheStick> 0.75 Gib.
06:26:34  <TheStick> *GiB
06:26:34  <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: Not sure you could, even, with tomsrtbt.
06:26:36  <Rhamphoryncus> that's not so bad
06:26:47  <TheStick> Screwed that one up.
06:28:32  <Rhamphoryncus> tomsrtbt is designed for small disks, not small ram
06:29:34  <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: Even so, it's a 2.0.x kernel.
06:29:39  <Rhamphoryncus> It's old
06:29:53  <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: And the whole kernel has to be put into RAM.
06:30:43  <Rhamphoryncus> TheStick: Either way I know debian or ubuntu server versions would run in that
06:30:53  <Rhamphoryncus> I'd be far more concerned about openttd itself than linux
06:31:03  <TheStick> ...right...
06:31:27  <Rhamphoryncus> Not having X, gnome/kde, a graphical browser, or any of that makes a HUGE difference
06:31:51  <TheStick> ...anyways, I found a syntax error with the Makefile...;
06:34:08  <Rhamphoryncus> this article claims linux needs around 2 MB:
06:34:38  <TheStick> ...and around how much would OpenTTD want...?
06:35:49  <Arafangion> TheStick: Considerably more. :)
06:36:02  <Arafangion> Also, linux needs more than 2MB as well.
06:36:14  <TheStick> What I mean is...
06:36:23  <TheStick> ...would I be able to run OpenTTD with 0.75 GiB of RAM?
06:37:01  <Arafangion> Sure.
06:37:33  <Arafangion> Referring to RAM as "0.75 GiB of RAM" is an exceededly odd way of saying it, mind you.
06:37:39  <TheStick> ...
06:37:51  <TheStick> Just trying to be specific...;
06:40:09  <Arafangion> TheStick: Do keep in mind that measuring RAM precisely is more involved than you realise.
06:40:26  <TheStick> ... :/
06:40:56  * Arafangion heads off!
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08:31:55  <Rhamphoryncus> Hmm, I think I've put together a robust timetabling algorithm.  Anybody interested in the details?
08:40:18  <andythenorth> moin
08:43:33  <Rhamphoryncus> ahoy
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10:08:34  <Alberth> hi hi
10:09:11  <Rhamphoryncus> Ahoy
10:09:46  <andythenorth> moin Alberth
10:10:03  <Rhamphoryncus> Can anybody give me some quick pointers on how to save/load a byte array?  Technically I could get away with 2 or 3 bits for each value
10:11:16  <Rhamphoryncus> Hmm, SL_ARR looks promising
10:11:31  <TinoDidriksen> Then you can define that you're using 3 per value and just write that out.
10:12:49  <TinoDidriksen> But it's a lot of code to pack the bits. Much easier to just dump a byte array to a stream.
10:13:34  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, perfectly easy for me to treat it as nibbles
10:13:53  <Rhamphoryncus> Or.. a uint32 array and 3-bits 10 times
10:14:59  <TinoDidriksen> That's going to be some fiddling code to work with...
10:15:25  <TinoDidriksen> I'd go with nibbles if space is that needed.
10:15:27  <Rhamphoryncus> Nah, I'll just throw together a macro to do bitshifting for get/set
10:15:56  <TinoDidriksen> Macro, ew... inline template, ftw.
10:16:07  <Rhamphoryncus> heh.  Not that proficient in C++
10:17:02  <andythenorth> what's wrong with macros? :)
10:17:11  <andythenorth> genuine question
10:17:30  <Rhamphoryncus> A C macro is purely a textual substition
10:17:36  <Rhamphoryncus> substitution*
10:17:41  <TinoDidriksen> They're unsafe. inline templates are type checked at compile time; macros can be abused.
10:18:01  <Rhamphoryncus> So you can have something like this: #define FOO &#(*#}J{ #*$#(
10:18:06  <TinoDidriksen> Same reason you should prefer const globals instead of #define constants.
10:18:27  <andythenorth> k
10:19:01  <Rhamphoryncus> constants aren't nearly as bad.. but I can still see a const global being better
10:27:36  <Terkhen> good morning
10:28:00  <andythenorth> hola Terkhen
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10:30:41  <Rhamphoryncus> TinoDidriksen: so.. could you actually give me a hint?
10:31:17  <TinoDidriksen> Sounded like you had it under control in your own way...
10:31:33  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm using grep and browsing, trying to learn saveload
10:32:16  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm sure it does arrays, I've even found one or two mentions, but I haven't found an example yet
10:34:38  <Terkhen> Rhamphoryncus: I suggest checking trunk revisions that made changes to saveload to get an idea of how it works
10:34:45  <Rhamphoryncus> hrm
10:34:47  <Terkhen> it is a bit confusing :)
10:35:41  <Rhamphoryncus> That's an understatement
10:39:22  <Terkhen> I understood it briefly while creating the persistent storage pool codechanges, now I barely remember it :P
10:39:40  * Rhamphoryncus finds openttd.svg and finds out that it contains.. vectorized pixel art.
10:45:06  <andythenorth> :)
10:49:58  * andythenorth wonders if nmlc -> nfo -> grfcodec -> grf is faster than nmlc -> grf ?
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10:51:53  <Rhamphoryncus> Hmm.. SlArray.. Load_ORDL, Save_ORDL.  More promising stuff.
10:53:50  <Terkhen> andythenorth: probably not
10:54:10  <Rubidium> Terkhen: it actually might be
10:54:48  <Rubidium> nml tries both compression formats, grfcodec only the specified one
10:55:13  <Terkhen> oh, I see
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10:57:21  * andythenorth wonders how to test
10:57:54  <Terkhen> time make
10:59:37  <Rhamphoryncus> what does SLE stand for?  Save load encoding?  Save load entry?
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11:02:14  <Alberth> and do that several times, to eliminate disk caching effects
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11:03:45  <Rubidium> or use a ramdisk and disable swap
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11:07:20  <andythenorth> meh
11:07:30  <andythenorth> grfcodec will barf on my directory structure :|
11:07:37  * andythenorth temporarily hacks that
11:08:40  <Alberth> always nice, programs that enforce a particular directory structure :p
11:10:04  <Terkhen> :)
11:10:42  <andythenorth> woah
11:10:54  <andythenorth> ok, averages, rounding down because it's not that significant:
11:11:23  <andythenorth> nmlc -> grf: 13s
11:11:29  <andythenorth> nmlc -> nfo: 4s
11:11:51  <andythenorth> grfcodec -> grf: 0.3s (oops, can't round that down) :O
11:12:08  * andythenorth wonders how to edit makefile to change this :)
11:12:34  <andythenorth> silly old grfcodec wants my nfo in sprites/
11:12:47  <andythenorth> but that's not tragic
11:13:16  * andythenorth still hasn't figured out makefile editing yet
11:13:42  <andythenorth> and I'm not replacing it with python - makefile has three years work and all those targets and edge cases taken care of...
11:14:20  * andythenorth ponders shell script
11:14:34  <andythenorth> ho
11:14:45  <andythenorth> maybe I just tell the makefile it's an nfo project :)
11:15:19  <Terkhen> yeah, that should work
11:15:23  <Terkhen> s/should/might/
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11:20:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23932 /trunk/ (17 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: split the NewGRF text window into its own source files
11:22:25  <andythenorth> hmm
11:22:35  <andythenorth> bash alias works for me
11:22:42  <andythenorth> alias makebandit='nmlc bandit.nml --nfo=sprites/bandit.nfo && grfcodec -e bandit.grf && mv bandit.grf /Users/andy/Documents/OpenTTD/data'
11:23:02  <andythenorth> leave the makefile alone
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11:23:08  <andythenorth> don't break what I can't fix :)
11:23:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23933 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt newgrf_gui.cpp): -Codechange: make the text file window strings more generic (LordAro)
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11:24:22  <Alberth> andythenorth: I often put such sequences in a real script file, less likely to get lost :)
11:24:41  * andythenorth never read the manual on how to do that
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11:26:38  <Alberth> andythenorth:
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11:29:08  <Alberth> put that in a file (makebandit or so),   chmod u+x makebandit     and run it with   ./makebandit
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11:30:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23934 /trunk/src/lang/ (43 files in 2 dirs): -Update: other language files w.r.t. the previous change
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11:34:43  <andythenorth> Alberth: thanks
11:35:23  <andythenorth> 5s, not 13s
11:35:31  <andythenorth> 8s less frustration :)
11:39:27  <Alberth> you're working around the natural barrier which is designed to keep newgrfs small :p
11:39:49  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23935 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_config.cpp textfile_gui.cpp textfile_gui.h): -Codechange: generalise GetTextfile
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11:42:21  <Zuu> In one network timeout string the computer of a user is blamed that it takes too long to join. In another the user is blamed because he/she took too long to download the map. I can understand that we blame a user to be too slow to type the password, but shouldn't his/her computer be blamed for slow download speed rather than the user him/herself?
11:42:44  <Zuu> STR_NETWORK_ERROR_TIMEOUT_MAP <-- string that could be changed from user to computer.
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11:44:30  <Rhamphoryncus> Zuu: I agree.  I'd go with "Client took too long to download the map"
11:46:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23936 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 6 dirs): -Feature [FS#5047]: readme/licence/changelog viewer for AI and game scripts (LordAro)
11:48:22  <Zuu> Nice
11:48:32  <Rubidium> Zuu: ?
11:49:24  <Zuu> Yep that is what I had in mind.
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11:50:08  <Zuu> You could of course starting to say that his ISP is to slow etc. but that is taking things too far as the slowness of download can't easily be told what the cause is.
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11:55:56  <Wolf01> hello
11:58:59  <andythenorth> Alberth: CETS compile time is ~4 mins :D
11:59:29  <Alberth> good for making some coffee :)
11:59:49  <Alberth> hello W01
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12:08:43  <Rubidium> with grf container version 2 you might do some tricks to prevent nml from re-encoding the graphics each time. Then it might become significantly faster, although dep checking will be a nightmare
12:09:29  <andythenorth> dep checks seem to be a headache
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12:16:20  <andythenorth> anyone ever written procedural graphics generator?
12:16:29  * andythenorth is reluctant to draw
12:16:37  <andythenorth> anyone / anyone here /s
12:17:42  <Alberth> all renderer programs?
12:18:14  <andythenorth> this would be pure 2d bitmap composition
12:18:26  <andythenorth> x,y,z
12:18:45  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: I can't help but think that's a bad idea
12:18:49  <andythenorth> with alpha / mask / genlock support
12:18:56  <andythenorth> drawing is boring
12:19:00  <andythenorth> writing code is interesting
12:19:05  <Rhamphoryncus> True
12:19:19  <Rhamphoryncus> But you're not going to end up with much variety doing that
12:19:20  <andythenorth> if I draw truck components, does anyone want to lay them out according to simple rules?
12:19:31  * andythenorth considers amazon mechanical turk
12:19:46  <Rhamphoryncus> You'll be like the face configurator thing
12:20:11  <andythenorth> trucks are pretty vanilla
12:20:12  <andythenorth>
12:21:26  <Rhamphoryncus> Mix-and-match trailers I could see
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12:22:28  <Rhamphoryncus> How many distinct cabs do you actually see on there?
12:22:36  <andythenorth> there are 4 or so
12:23:05  <andythenorth> the actual graphics will need maybe 12 distinct cab styles
12:23:58  <andythenorth> they're on a standard grid of 4px units
12:24:06  <andythenorth> so composing them would be possible - in theory
12:24:13  <Rhamphoryncus> Ignoring the wheels then yeah, it's 4
12:24:23  <andythenorth> wheels can be comped on top
12:24:51  <Rhamphoryncus> You'd honestly spend more time programming than you would doing it in gimp
12:24:56  <Rhamphoryncus> and you'd get a better result in gimp
12:25:30  <andythenorth> the sad time comes when I improve a truck cab
12:25:40  <andythenorth> then have to copy it into n photoshop files
12:25:53  <andythenorth> maintaining graphics is a PITA
12:26:06  <andythenorth> I could actually do this with Adobe's Flash IDE
12:26:18  <andythenorth> which supports symbols that can be comped
12:26:33  <andythenorth> and easy procedural positioning of sprites
12:26:37  <andythenorth> and png output
12:26:38  <Rhamphoryncus> hrm
12:26:43  <andythenorth> but the flash IDE sucks
12:26:46  <andythenorth> that's my old life
12:26:51  <andythenorth> hmm
12:26:58  <andythenorth> After Effects can do comps of symbols too
12:27:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23937 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Change: improve the wording of some of the timeout related "error" messages
12:29:58  <andythenorth> ho
12:30:02  <andythenorth> photoshop smart objects
12:30:06  <andythenorth> instances of symbols
12:39:42  <andythenorth> meh
12:39:48  <andythenorth> that's not very future proof
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13:27:51  * andythenorth figures out a better way to handle calculating run cost etc
13:28:11  <andythenorth> if no value is set, calculate the value
13:28:17  <andythenorth> if a value is set, use the value
13:28:31  <andythenorth> no magic happens to a value that is manually set
13:28:39  <andythenorth> hence magic xOR no-magic
13:28:46  <andythenorth> sanity prevails
13:29:02  <Rhamphoryncus> Sanity is a rare commodity ;)
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15:00:45  <andythenorth> defining a function that's only called once per class...
15:00:54  <andythenorth> ...seems tidy, but actually makes for worse code?
15:01:09  <andythenorth> more pointless indirection, harder to read
15:01:11  <andythenorth> ??
15:02:18  <Rhamphoryncus> not necessarily
15:02:25  <Zuu> If you can abstract away some code by puting it in a function with a good descriptive name, the code that calls the function could become easier to read.
15:02:29  <Rhamphoryncus> It's a question of abstraction
15:02:33  <andythenorth> I'll paste
15:02:48  <Rhamphoryncus> Potentially MUCH easier to read
15:03:11  <andythenorth>
15:03:17  <andythenorth> l40 - 45
15:03:25  <andythenorth> could be set_graphics_file
15:03:38  <andythenorth> similar to modify_capacities_fifth_wheel_trucks
15:03:55  <andythenorth> seems over-engineered to use functions for these though
15:04:04  <andythenorth> even though I personally find it much easier to read
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15:04:19  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah.. it's only a small dent but I think I'd do it too
15:04:20  <Zuu> 140? the paste doesn't contain that many lines.
15:04:26  <andythenorth> l 40
15:04:34  <Zuu> oh
15:05:09  <andythenorth> when setting props, I don't really want to read "if foo, blah, else: other blah"
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15:05:23  <andythenorth> I hate if-else blocks in the middle of otherwise simple code
15:05:52  <Zuu> Sounds like you have good arguments for defining a function.
15:06:05  <andythenorth> except....violates the 'do it once, do it long hand'
15:06:12  <andythenorth> 'do it twice, write a function'
15:06:16  <andythenorth> meh
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15:23:38  * andythenorth did the functions anyway :)
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15:28:00  <Rhamphoryncus> :)
15:28:15  <Rhamphoryncus> what's this "do it once, do it long hand" you speak of?
15:28:44  <Rhamphoryncus> IMO, it's a myth.  Functions are NOT to prevent duplicate code.  They're to provide abstraction
15:29:02  <Rhamphoryncus> goto is to prevent duplicate code ;)
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15:33:32  <Rubidium> abstractions prevent duplicate code
15:35:01  <Rhamphoryncus> Abstractions can reduce code size.  Duplicate code is a consequence, not a cause
15:35:10  <andythenorth> functions move your code away
15:35:20  <andythenorth> that can be bad when you're trying to figure out 'wtf?'
15:35:42  <andythenorth> function in another file calling another function in another file is a PITA
15:35:46  <Rhamphoryncus> Can be.  Abstraction isn't a silver bullet
15:35:52  <andythenorth> lots of project-grep = dull
15:36:07  <andythenorth> ideally all the code you need *right now* fits in the viewport
15:36:19  <Rhamphoryncus> I agree
15:36:24  <andythenorth> if it doesn't fit in the viewport, reduce the scope of your feature :)
15:36:31  * andythenorth has a 13" screen
15:36:40  <andythenorth> other people I work with have 22" dual screen
15:36:51  <Rhamphoryncus> But the reality is I use grep as my IDE ;)
15:37:07  <andythenorth> viewport may be a flawed measurement :)
15:37:23  <andythenorth> ho.  a new truck graphic
15:37:31  * andythenorth has started actually...drawing
15:37:48  <Rhamphoryncus> What ho!
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15:42:53  * andythenorth ponders curling bandit.cfg from web
15:46:32  <andythenorth> bah
15:46:35  <andythenorth> slows down building
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17:42:35  <andythenorth> quiet
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18:18:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r23938 /trunk/src/script/script_scanner.hpp: -Codechange: declare ScriptScanner::Initialize() and make it abstract, make the other overloaded Initialize() protected
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18:44:04  <andythenorth> is it exam season?
18:44:11  <andythenorth> can't be the weather luring people out doors
18:44:30  <andythenorth> maybe the european interwebs has iced over
18:45:52  <Rubidium> andythenorth: well, the weather is quite nice for ice skating
18:47:00  <Rubidium> though the last week's weather was very unpredictable (according to the once running the trains)
18:47:28  <andythenorth> anybody want to reimplement eGRVTS in nml?  I think it's about 1 day's work + 1 day finding mistakes :P
18:48:06  <Rubidium> i.e. 70-80% of the time the sun could shine last week it did shine, no rain, relatively stable temperatures...
18:49:57  * Rubidium wonders how long it takes until the first real 32bpp or ez NewGRF is released
18:50:06  <andythenorth> won't be me
18:50:19  <andythenorth> eGRVTS would be a good candidate, zeph has EZ sprites for a number of vehicles
18:50:37  <andythenorth> I have a truck set [nearly] framework
18:51:15  <andythenorth> which I am itching to test on some other hapless coder
18:51:43  <andythenorth> as that will uncover strangeness in my thinking
18:52:32  <andythenorth> compiles in ~7s
18:52:37  <andythenorth> :D
19:02:23  <Hirundo> Is there a way to extract all info (at least action0) from eGRVTS into some tracking table?
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19:04:55  <Hirundo> Then the conversion to NML would be quite doable, but manually setting a few dozen properties for more than a few dozen vehicles would feel like a fabulous waste of time
19:05:52  <Hirundo> and then there's still a lot of sprites and loading stages, articulation, etc to fix
19:06:15  <andythenorth> Hirundo: zeph was pretty good about templating his sprites
19:06:29  <andythenorth> eGRVTS is very...modular
19:06:45  <Hirundo> sprites yes, but acc. his statements he writes his NFO in plain hex
19:07:14  <andythenorth> if $someone could parse the nfo into a sane data structure...I could write the other side to parse it into a python config file
19:08:09  <andythenorth> we might never write any nml at all :o
19:08:09  <andythenorth> dict per vehicle would be favourite, or JSON or similar
19:08:14  <andythenorth> or straight into config file
19:08:53  <andythenorth> yes
19:09:03  <andythenorth> that's why I haven't maintenance-patched it for various bugs
19:09:16  <andythenorth> I am not going to spend time with my finger on the screen counting bytes
19:09:22  <Hirundo> I'm looking into grf2html output now
19:09:29  <andythenorth> FIRS nfo->nml conversion script was pretty robust
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19:13:01  <andythenorth> could parse the dom of the grf2html output
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19:18:13  <andythenorth> Hirundo: my target config format would be this:
19:18:27  <andythenorth> I'm quite interested in learning to write python config files as well as read them
19:18:36  <andythenorth> so I would be happy to figure that out
19:19:31  <Hirundo> as far as i can see, the nfo is quite easy
19:19:46  <Hirundo> there's no action 6/7/9/D
19:20:01  <Hirundo> only actions 0-4, 8 and one action 11 (sound)
19:22:22  <andythenorth> plausible conversion then
19:22:34  <Hirundo> varaction2 are mostly for articulation only
19:23:15  <Hirundo> the few graphics switches I could find are for trailers, which seem to share IDs
19:23:26  <andythenorth> yes
19:23:36  <andythenorth> I kind of know the eGRVTS codebase, as we copied it for HEQS
19:23:41  <andythenorth> zeph coded v1 of HEQS
19:23:44  <andythenorth> then I took over
19:23:49  <andythenorth> I commented it ;P
19:24:08  <andythenorth> and added formatting :P
19:24:12  <andythenorth> took a while :)
19:25:38  <andythenorth> I don't share trailer IDs anymore
19:25:42  <andythenorth> we have plenty spare ;)
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19:27:26  <Hirundo> 249 vehids total
19:27:30  <Hirundo> of which 31 trailers
19:27:47  <Hirundo> No wonder, I tended to get lost in the P-list
19:28:02  <andythenorth> I wouldn't mind manually redoing all the properties
19:28:05  <andythenorth> tedious, but not hard
19:29:15  * Hirundo would mind tediousness
19:29:32  <andythenorth> but I really don't want to sort out the pngs + realsprites
19:29:34  <andythenorth> I hate doing that
19:29:59  <andythenorth> i.e. rebuilding the templated offsets etc
19:30:28  <andythenorth> BANDIT codebase uses the NML template system btw
19:30:37  <andythenorth> for spritesets
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19:31:20  <Hirundo> you could ask zeph, if he has any useful template info for the sprites
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19:32:27  <Hirundo> then some python / PIL script should work
19:32:37  <andythenorth> I could also ask him if he minds the conversion :)
19:32:43  <andythenorth> if he likes nfo, this might annoy him
19:33:07  <Hirundo> sounds like a good thing (tm)
19:33:09  <andythenorth> could be the first grfcontainer2 grf though?
19:33:22  <andythenorth> or the first with EZ anyway
19:33:44  <Hirundo> which reminds me
19:33:49  <Hirundo> I should be working on NML
19:34:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23939 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
19:34:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:34:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 4 changes by VoyagerOne
19:34:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 4 changes by Rubidium
19:34:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
19:34:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by NG
19:34:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
19:34:21  <Hirundo> instead of discussing, which tends to *not* produce working grfs out of thin air
19:34:35  <Hirundo> Fixing NML doesn't either, but might help ;-)
19:34:43  * andythenorth finds monologue necessary prelude to coding ;)
19:34:48  <andythenorth> dialogue is even better
19:40:26  <andythenorth> bbl
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19:47:59  <Elukka>
19:48:02  <Elukka> what station set is that on the left?
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20:34:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r23940 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: remove superfluous semicolons
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21:20:47  <Hirundo> Yexo: Doing #3571 could cause grf breakage in some corner cases, is that acceptable?
21:21:36  <Hirundo> 'corner cases' being AFAIK only grfs with vehicles that have capacity but are not refittable
21:22:09  <Hirundo> see <- planetmaker ?
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21:37:02  <amews_aj> Hi, After upgrading 1.1.3 -> 1.1.5, the fonts are all weird. Tried resetting cfg file, but still fonts have changed. Wrong size, nonbold etc. Is this on purpose, or is something wrong?
21:38:33  <SmatZ> does that happen when you switch the game to English?
21:38:50  <amews_aj> let me check
21:39:01  <SmatZ> what could have changed, is that the translation in 1.1.5 now includes some characters that are not included in the base font
21:39:08  <SmatZ> so it can't be used
21:39:53  <amews_aj> where do I change language?
21:40:13  <SmatZ> in the Game Options
21:40:30  <SmatZ> (not Advanced Settings)
21:40:50  <amews_aj> that fixed it.
21:41:02  <amews_aj> Can't I force a the old look on the translated version ?
21:41:45  <Rubidium> maybe an update of OpenGFX helps
21:42:11  <amews_aj> Rubidium, when installing 1.1.5 I chose to download opengfx
21:42:17  <amews_aj> shouldn't that cause it to be updated?
21:43:15  <amews_aj> opengfx 0.4.2
21:43:28  <SmatZ> in trunk, Danish looks fine... but it might be because of FS#5055
21:43:56  <SmatZ> which added letters like "OE"
21:44:20  <Rubidium> SmatZ: only to the original
21:44:22  <amews_aj> I think the letter "Ø" was included in translations of previous versions as well
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21:45:09  <Rubidium> amews_aj: is 1.1.4 okay?
21:45:15  <amews_aj> haven't tried it
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21:46:20  <amews_aj> Rubidium, should I?
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21:47:48  <planetmaker> Hirundo: the question is: what's a good default cargo type?
21:48:04  <planetmaker> or should that rather be done explicitly by the player? IMHO yes
21:48:14  <planetmaker> then probably as a separate "property"
21:48:27  <planetmaker> though that's... difficult. It'll have to be a list property
21:48:32  <Rubidium> amews_aj: not needed, no different langauge updates there
21:48:46  <Rubidium> amews_aj: does 1.1.3 (with opengfx 0.4.2) still show the bold characters?
21:48:47  <Hirundo> planetmaker: why? you can specify only one, right?
21:48:48  <amews_aj> Well I just did, same thing
21:48:55  <amews_aj> Rubidium, trying that next
21:49:09  <planetmaker> Hirundo: yes-ish. But what if that cargo doesn't exist?
21:49:19  <andythenorth> climates...
21:50:22  <Hirundo> planetmaker: then it picks first refittable, if possible using the order in the CTT
21:50:48  <SmatZ> hmm 1.1 looks fine for me @ Danish
21:50:55  <Hirundo> unless the vehicle is not refittable at all, in which case the default cargo is the only cargo and refitting is not possible (like the default vehs)
21:51:01  <Rubidium> SmatZ: which opengfx are you using?
21:51:02  <amews_aj> Rubidium, no, 1.1.3 is also bad now
21:51:55  <__ln__> Danish shouldn't be using any unusual characters (non-Latin-1) so it's a bit weird.
21:51:56  <SmatZ> Rubidium: ok, not with OpenGFX
21:52:10  <SmatZ> it looks fine with original graphics, but not with opengfx ...
21:52:24  <SmatZ> 0.4.2
21:52:44  <amews_aj> so what to do to solve it? Bugfix? Something I can do temporarily ?
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21:52:53  <Rubidium> amews_aj: did you ever use the graphics of Transport Tycoon Deluxe?
21:53:37  <amews_aj> I don't have the game, and using it without a copy of the game would not be legal I suppose
21:54:04  <Rubidium> amews_aj: section 9 of the readme has a short bit about how to override the font
21:54:49  <Rubidium> planetmaker: amews_aj "wants" to report a regression in OpenGFX w.r.t. glyphs gone missing for Danish in OpenTTD 1.1.x
21:54:59  <amews_aj> Rubidium, I did that, but I cannot find the default fonts
21:55:34  <Rubidium> amews_aj: the "default" font is in opengfx, but when characters (glyphs) are missing it asks the operating system for the best font
21:55:41  <planetmaker> hm ?
21:56:51  <amews_aj> Rubidium, so I can't get the "default" font back by manual override? It's not a standard font ?
21:56:55  <Rubidium> planetmaker: opengfx 0.4.2, Danish translation: in OpenTTD 1.1.x misses glyphs, in 1.2.x is does miss glyphs
21:57:05  <Rubidium> amews_aj: exactly
21:57:12  <amews_aj> :(
21:57:17  <planetmaker> in both versions? hm
21:57:31  <amews_aj> Rubidium, Would it work downgrading opengfx, or only if I downgrade to openttd 1.1.3 as well?
21:57:35  <Rubidium> planetmaker: in 1.2.x it does NOT miss glyphs ;)
21:57:43  <planetmaker> ah, ok
21:57:47  <planetmaker> that I wondered
21:57:48  <Rubidium> amews_aj: you could downgrade opengfx
21:58:04  <amews_aj> ok
21:58:05  <planetmaker> it might as well be that I made the checks to strict.
21:58:14  <Rubidium> but you need to manually find the older version
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21:58:27  <amews_aj> Rubidium, not on a build server ?
21:58:28  <Rubidium> of opengfx
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21:58:38  <planetmaker> amews_aj:: Do you know which OpenGFX you used before?
21:58:44  <amews_aj> unfortunately, no
21:58:48  <planetmaker> which version?
21:58:53  * andythenorth -> bed
21:58:59  <Rubidium> amews_aj: yes, but using the 1.1.3 installer will not get the older opengfx
21:59:04  <amews_aj> the one that was installed when openttd 1.1.3 was out
21:59:12  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I'm assuming it's monospace related
21:59:41  <planetmaker> well... I specifically rewrote that part already once ;-)
21:59:47  <Rubidium> amews_aj: you need I think
21:59:51  <planetmaker> and have a special section for monospace
22:00:03  <planetmaker> which simply is not included for openttd 1.1.x
22:00:17  <amews_aj> Rubidium, Ok. Maybe I'll just go with english UI at the moment.
22:00:30  <planetmaker> amews_aj: in order to fix: which strings do not work anymore?
22:00:48  <amews_aj> planetmaker, well all of them. The strings are there, but with wrong font
22:00:48  <planetmaker> I *need* something to pinpoint in order to address this bug
22:01:04  <planetmaker> what is "wrong" font?
22:01:22  <amews_aj> Don't know what font it is... Want a screenshot?
22:01:26  <planetmaker> can you show me (screenshot)?
22:01:45  <planetmaker> post them to
22:01:58  <planetmaker>
22:01:59  <planetmaker> sorry
22:04:12  <amews_aj>   Don't mind it says 1.1.3 - it's the same with 1.1.5
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22:05:14  <planetmaker> and... that's how it should or should not look?
22:05:22  <planetmaker> (It's not the game-supplied font)
22:05:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r23941 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): -Add: support for clang
22:05:41  <amews_aj> should not
22:05:51  <Rubidium> planetmaker: that's showing the opengfx font isn't chosen
22:05:58  <Rubidium> whereas in 1.2.0 it is chosen
22:06:14  <Rubidium> and according to amews_aj the opengfx font was chosen in an earlier version of opengfx as well
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22:07:20  <Rubidium> but I'll try bisecting
22:07:26  <Rubidium> 812 good, tip bad
22:09:52  <amews_aj> Rubidium, planetmaker, Can a bugfix be expected anytime soon ?
22:10:18  <SmatZ> amews_aj: 1.2.0-beta4 should work for you ;)
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22:10:33  <amews_aj> SmatZ, But I cannot play on a lot of servers with 1.2.0
22:10:46  <Rubidium> amews_aj: depends on what you think is soon
22:10:53  <planetmaker> :-)
22:11:23  <Rubidium> if soon is in astrological or paleotological time scales, then yes
22:11:28  <planetmaker> amews_aj: with 1.2.0 you cannot play on any :-P
22:11:55  <amews_aj> Of course :) But any guesses? (I won't complain if it isn't correct)
22:12:03  <SmatZ> #openttdcoop.stable allows you to play beta4 ;)
22:12:32  <planetmaker> amews_aj: you'll probably have to estimate my time budget
22:12:37  <planetmaker> Even I myself fail at that
22:12:41  <SmatZ> :(
22:12:47  <Rubidium> darn it... opengfx doesn't compile anymore with my image boundary patch :(
22:12:48  <amews_aj> heh :D
22:13:10  <planetmaker> there will be one before April
22:13:30  <amews_aj> I am a developer myself. Is it an easy fix that I will be able to do myself ?
22:14:02  <planetmaker> the difficult thing here probably is building OpenGFX. And knowing the NewGRF language
22:14:07  <Rubidium> depends on what the bug is
22:14:14  <amews_aj> oh, it's a custom language?
22:14:16  <planetmaker> Technically it's probably not that complicated. But what Rubidium says
22:14:29  <planetmaker> It first needs to be found where it is
22:14:31  <amews_aj> Rubidium, just sounded like you thought to know what caused the bug ?
22:15:38  <Rubidium> my statement was in the order of: "last time this car was in the garage you did mess with the motor management, so the malfunction of the motor might have to do with that"
22:15:48  <amews_aj> hehe :D
22:16:14  <Rubidium> and bisecting isn't going as I hoped
22:16:29  <Rubidium> hit already two non-working revs
22:16:43  <planetmaker> meh
22:16:48  <amews_aj> Oh well, english is fine. Is there any release plan for 1.2.0 yet? I mean, maybe it's not worth looking for the bug in 1.1.5 now ?
22:17:00  <Rubidium> 852 is good
22:17:06  <Rubidium> amews_aj: it's not a bug in OpenTTD
22:17:27  <Rubidium> it's a bug in OpenGFX, which is a separate project with a separate release schedule
22:17:35  <Yexo> amews_aj: there is no official release plan, but look at the release dates for 1.1 and 1.0 to get some idea
22:17:41  <amews_aj> Rubidium, well no, but it's a combination. Works with 1.2.0 you said
22:18:13  <Rubidium> then ~7-ish weeks if nothing major comes up
22:18:34  <SmatZ> also... what has changed between 1.1.1 and 1.1.5, so the text is so misplaced now? vs.
22:19:15  <planetmaker> That looks disgusting, SmatZ :-(
22:19:18  <Rubidium> SmatZ: look at fontcache.cpp
22:19:29  <Rubidium> I've got the feeling the font is bad though
22:19:52  <amews_aj> I noticed the "X"'s on the windows are misplaced as well here
22:20:06  <amews_aj> but maybe just due to wrong font
22:20:44  <Rubidium> SmatZ: I guess it's r23038
22:21:07  <SmatZ> @fs 23038
22:21:07  <DorpsGek> SmatZ:
22:21:11  <SmatZ> errr.....
22:21:19  <SmatZ> @commit 23038
22:21:19  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Commit by peter1138 :: r23038 trunk/src/fontcache.cpp (2011-10-18 17:57:42 UTC)
22:21:20  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: -Fix: Check that the selected font size is valid the font face in use and choose the nearest size to that selected if not. Font metrics should then just work.
22:22:03  <Rubidium> 870 bad
22:23:58  <SmatZ> Rubidium: indeed, reverting r23038 on 1.1 fixes the misalignment
22:24:13  <Rubidium> for that font
22:27:21  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I suspect 858 (1139-1150)
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22:28:28  <planetmaker> Thanks for testing, Rubi. I'll check it this week
22:29:31  <Rubidium> though when bisection is done I'll know if it's really that revision
22:29:59  <planetmaker> I created an issue for OpenGFX:
22:33:13  <Rubidium> 856 good
22:35:12  <Rubidium> it might be that 1.2.0 is smarter about missing glyphs
22:35:29  <Rubidium> 858 bad
22:35:53  <planetmaker> IIRC we took out a few special glyphs from the checks
22:37:19  <Rubidium> nope... doesn't seem to be smater
22:38:01  <Rubidium> 857 good
22:39:37  <Rubidium> oh...
22:42:01  <Rubidium> r23582 'fixes' it in trunk
22:42:41  <Rubidium> so whatever characters were removed due to that in opengfx should remain in the branch for 1.1.x and earlier
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22:51:43  <Rubidium> amews_aj: my initial guess about the bug in opengfx was wrong and I fear a proper review to fix the complete bug requires quite some checking. So I doubt it'll be a quick fix
22:51:54  <amews_aj> ok
22:53:17  <Rubidium> nevertheless replacing opengfx with 0.3.7 should be a good short term fix
22:54:53  <amews_aj> There are no important bugfixes that I will miss then ?
22:55:33  <Rubidium> depends what you perceive to be important
22:55:52  <amews_aj> Guess I'll just take a look at the changelog
22:56:09  <Rubidium> it's mostly minor graphics issues and improved graphics you'll be missing out
22:58:36  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:14:36  <frosch123> night
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23:50:24  <Terkhen> good night
23:56:19  <planetmaker> good night here, too
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