Log for #openttd on 15th February 2012:
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06:13:05  <tk> is openttd not libre? my distro provides opengfx and opengsx and seperate packages
06:13:32  <tk> does it not use these libre packages by default?
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06:25:27  <Epi> howdy
06:26:07  <Epi> anyone know... if it's a stright line how I can work out the max distance for best profit using hovercraft?
06:27:31  <supermop> trial an error?
06:28:01  <Epi> been doing that atm, takes a while. ah well
06:31:47  <supermop> i am not sure if there is a good way to calculate it on paper
06:33:15  <DabuYu> there's the operating profit graph for passengers
06:33:54  <DabuYu> hard to get the real values from that - but you can use that, and map the operating costs of the hovercraft
06:33:56  <DabuYu> i think
06:34:24  <DabuYu> but why to do all that effort, just play the game :)
06:34:32  <supermop> well see if you can get the speed of the hovercraft in tiles per day
06:34:53  <supermop> then take the passenger payment decay graph
06:35:52  <DabuYu> (is this an idea to create an in-game optimal distance graph per unit?)
06:36:04  <supermop> and at each day mark on the x axis muliply the payment y by number of tiles the boat would have traveled by that day
06:36:13  <Epi> that would be cool, although i lack any said knoledge xD
06:36:34  <DabuYu> me too :)
06:36:42  <supermop> and at the tallest point, thats the best place
06:36:44  <Epi> i might aim for the tiles crossed per day (it's not that great, i think 6ish with the hovercraft) and passanger decay graph
06:36:44  <DabuYu> but it should be possible
06:37:06  <Epi> my friend hates them, which is why i love them xD
06:37:09  <supermop> if you can get an actual function for the decay rate it woud be easier
06:46:36  <Rubidium> tk: opensfx (sound) is less free than the other packages. It's also easily possible to play the game with Transport Tycoon Deluxe's graphics, sounds and music. So having a 'soft' dependency on the graphics isn't a bad thing
06:49:06  <Rubidium> also the sounds, graphics and music are platform independent and have their own release schedules, so they can be (and are) released at other times and other intervals than OpenTTD itself
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06:56:51  <Epi> mm another issue i found is my hovercraft gets paid 5k one way, 10k the other way. so strange (both same load of full passangers
06:57:41  <xiong> Epi, is it possible that your pax do not all originate at the terminals of the hovercraft line?
06:58:22  <xiong> Also, are you quite sure that the time on route is the same in both directions? Timetable it and see.
06:58:51  <Epi> ah! that would explain it, i have been moving one dock further out slowly. the passangers are from the origional town
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07:03:29  <Epi> slowly moving the dock further out lets you make the ship goto said dock without using a bouy
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07:43:29  <ET> hey all
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07:45:42  <ET> I seem to have run into a problem with FIRS industry replacement. I have a forest connected to a sawmill connected to a lumber yard. I have a single train which refits after dropping off the wood. the problem is that if I drop off 120 wood, I only seem to pick up about 25 lumber. I am waiting 10 days at the sawmill... any ideas?
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09:39:10  <andythenorth> moin
09:41:18  <andythenorth> also au revoir :)
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11:37:24  <V453000> hello, I have a question - is there a way to make a industries "funding only" map in the scenario editor? Or is the only way create map with funding only -> make it a sav->scn -> scenario with funding only
11:39:34  <Ammler> do you still need to rename a save to load it with scenario editor?
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11:42:11  <V453000> yes
11:42:20  <V453000> at leas I think so
11:42:46  <V453000> yes you do
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11:50:17  <Ammler> FRs on bugs.o.o are indeed useless :-)
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12:59:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23949 /trunk/src/lang/ (english.txt english_US.txt): -Fix (r23947): Wrong positional parameter for timetable string.
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13:07:41  <andythenorth> hola
13:07:51  <andythenorth> could we make vehicle expiry date a little more deterministic?
13:08:08  <andythenorth> one option would be a cb
13:08:45  <andythenorth> maybe accompanied by a new grf-wide var to check availability of one or more vehicles
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13:35:00  * andythenorth ponders
13:35:31  <andythenorth> ¿ special spriteset syntax that lets nml do compile-time compositing of pngs?
13:35:41  <andythenorth> using the offsets, bounding box etc
13:35:54  * andythenorth wonders if PIL can be taught about alpha masks
13:37:01  <andythenorth> Image.composite()
13:37:08  <andythenorth> oh dear
13:37:14  <andythenorth> this is something I could try for myself :o
13:38:03  <planetmaker>
13:39:15  <andythenorth> if run-time compositing for vehicles is a bad idea....compile time might be ok
13:39:34  <andythenorth> whether it's TMWFTLB is another question
13:39:43  <andythenorth> but photoshop twiddling is dull
13:39:46  <andythenorth> code is fun
13:44:37  <dihedral> hihihi - i was getting tons of requests to one of my servers ip addresses, for i have no idea what, so i wrote a rewrite rule to send all requests to a single php script. the php script outputs a 404 response header and adds the source ip to be dropped in the firewall :-D
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13:48:54  <andythenorth> hmm
13:49:00  <andythenorth> cargo colouring could be done at compile time
13:49:09  <andythenorth> probably make the compile *much* slower
13:49:40  <andythenorth> ho ho ho
13:49:49  <andythenorth> PIL has a putpixel() method
13:49:57  * andythenorth smells procedural generation
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13:56:42  <andythenorth> anyone written a graphics shader before?
13:56:51  <andythenorth> no point in me reinventing wheel
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14:10:28  * andythenorth is very bad at maths, so will probably do it wrong
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15:30:04  <Belugas> hello
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16:06:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23950 /trunk/src/goal.cpp: -Fix (r23731) [FS#5063]: never show GSGoal::Question() to spectators. Accidently INVALID_COMPANY == COMPANY_SPECTATOR
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18:04:20  <Rhamphoryncus> Hmm, that'll definitely need cleanup.  I've got a function with i, j, k, and l temporaries.  :)
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18:08:32  <frosch123> <- i think whoever translated that into german trolled his client
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18:09:49  <Rhamphoryncus> frosch123: a volunteer translator for minecraft put racist messages in one :(
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18:11:41  <frosch123> ohoh, maybe it was automatically translated from chinese... and the dictionary used circumscroptions for words which have no definite translation
18:12:24  <frosch123> Rhamphoryncus: can always happen, but then you can just ban people
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18:12:53  <Rhamphoryncus> frosch123: yeah, but it waited until they got complaints
18:13:01  <Rhamphoryncus> Might have been with a prerelease version though
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18:28:57  <Terkhen> hello
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18:36:32  <nicfer> hi everyone
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19:20:44  <andythenorth> how interesting
19:20:50  * andythenorth just created a raw image with PIL
19:20:54  <andythenorth> it's useless :P
19:21:02  <andythenorth> but that's a new trick
19:22:14  <Terkhen> can you teach it to draw good trucks?
19:23:05  <andythenorth> I'm contemplating that
19:23:23  <andythenorth> I'm pretty certain I can teach it to comp load sprites onto trucks
19:23:34  <andythenorth> e.g. so I draw a flat trailer of length x
19:23:46  <andythenorth> and it comps on loads for steel, wood, tractors, crates etc
19:24:32  <andythenorth> I think I can teach it to recolour things as well
19:26:24  <andythenorth> I'm also certain I could teach it to draw flat trailers
19:26:41  <andythenorth> and tank trailers
19:27:03  <andythenorth> other types - might be more work defining the procedures than I save by automating it
19:27:34  <andythenorth> there's some threshold of complexity where defining rules for automation gets hard
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19:33:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23951 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
19:33:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:33:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 10 changes by habell
19:33:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 6 changes by NG, planetmaker
19:33:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 6 changes by lorenzodv
19:33:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 9 changes by Parastais
19:33:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 33 changes by Stabilitronas
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19:47:13  <andythenorth> ho
19:47:18  * andythenorth has ideas
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19:47:47  <supermop> nice
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19:56:43  <andythenorth> I can seed pixels from a basic floorplate
19:56:51  <andythenorth> using magic colours probably
19:57:34  <andythenorth> it's then quite trivial to say 'if pixel is hue xx: draw 4 pixels in y direction, using pattern aaba' or whatever
19:58:45  <andythenorth> this will be completely adequate for trailers
19:58:52  <andythenorth> it's kind of like extruding splines
19:59:01  <supermop> this sounds far more complicated than drawing it yourself
19:59:09  <andythenorth> supermop: it's more fun this way
19:59:12  <andythenorth> want to draw some trucks?
19:59:14  <andythenorth> :)
19:59:19  <andythenorth> I will accept donations
19:59:37  <andythenorth> but if the alternative is me drawing, I'd rather learn something new and interesting
19:59:39  <supermop> ok
19:59:43  <supermop> a few
20:00:13  <supermop> if i can draw the murdered out renault from that episode of top gear
20:00:33  <andythenorth> you could draw a magnum for the euro version of BANDIT
20:00:39  <andythenorth> although I'm not working on that atm
20:00:41  <andythenorth> ;)
20:00:52  <andythenorth> and at BANDIT scale, trucks mostly look alike
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20:01:07  <supermop> 'refit to matte black vinyl'
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20:02:28  <andythenorth> :)
20:03:11  <supermop> ive made progress on my EZ hitachi style monorails
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20:03:30  <supermop> it would have made more sense to trace renders though
20:03:39  <andythenorth> voxels!
20:03:41  <andythenorth> sorry :P
20:03:49  <andythenorth> qubicles!
20:03:51  <andythenorth> sorry :P
20:03:54  <supermop> ha
20:04:46  <andythenorth> oh dear
20:05:00  * andythenorth discovers the PIL ImageDraw module
20:05:06  <supermop> they looks nice and ugly so far
20:05:26  <andythenorth> this is no good
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20:05:28  <supermop> but muddy at regular 1x zoom
20:06:02  <andythenorth> PIL already has drawing support for lines, polygons, fills etc :(
20:06:25  <andythenorth> where's the fun in that :|
20:06:36  <supermop> what is pil?
20:06:45  <supermop> more of your python business?
20:06:47  <andythenorth> python imaging library
20:06:51  <supermop> i see
20:06:57  <andythenorth> it can draw pixels
20:07:06  <supermop> is python a marketable language?
20:07:14  <andythenorth> in what sense?
20:07:39  <supermop> more and more it seems us old fashioned real world designers and architects should know some code
20:07:56  <supermop> for when our industries collapse and we have to fall back on real jobs
20:07:58  <andythenorth> lots of engineers know a small amount certainly
20:08:15  <andythenorth> and biological scientists seem to know an insane amount on average
20:08:19  <supermop> yeah
20:08:35  <andythenorth> architecture remains one of the highest paid professions btw
20:08:42  * andythenorth nearly did architecture
20:08:44  <supermop> not for me
20:08:48  <andythenorth> not for all
20:09:02  <andythenorth> I guess average earnings are skewed by the calatravas and fosters
20:09:04  <andythenorth> :P
20:09:17  <supermop> my friends are making around 50-55 in the city, best place in the country to do it
20:09:36  <supermop> whereas people whe know who work with money make 70-80
20:10:02  <supermop> and some lucky jerks are near 100
20:10:28  <supermop> for a 27 or 28 year old that is quite comfortable
20:10:35  <supermop> im stuck around 40 atm
20:10:52  <supermop> but im taking a tangent in furniture
20:11:28  <supermop> engineers in the city make money closer to finance guys than to architects
20:12:34  <supermop> anyway thats all depressing to think about
20:12:53  <supermop> if i wanted to learn something, would you suggest python over others?
20:13:11  <andythenorth> python is fun most of all :)
20:13:42  <supermop> i think my brother knows some and writes scripts for GIS with it
20:13:50  <supermop> (little brother is an engineer)
20:13:58  <andythenorth> and yes, the civil engineering course I did > 50% went into finance, only 25% into engineering
20:14:05  <andythenorth> I quit and did other stuff too ;)
20:14:26  <supermop> haha
20:14:36  <supermop> my brother stuck with hydrology
20:14:45  <supermop> my dad has a phd in civil
20:15:20  <supermop> but after about 6 years of work moved into management instead
20:16:27  <andythenorth> supermop: try a python tutorial :)
20:16:43  <supermop> ok
20:16:55  <supermop> did that for grasshopper and it helped
20:17:45  <supermop> is C better  for helping with ottd?
20:20:05  <andythenorth> brb
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20:25:34  <andythenorth> supermop: can't comment on C++ vs python - I've failed to learn much C++ ;)
20:26:07  <andythenorth> I can read most lines of ottd code, or at least guess
20:26:19  <andythenorth> but that doesn't help me understand the bigger picture ;)
20:27:52  <supermop> how does one add stuff to nml? is nml a thing that people patch?
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20:30:41  <supermop> like for it to support bridges, someone has to write a patch to make that happen?
20:30:56  <Hirundo> there are already (partial) patches for that lying around
20:31:33  <supermop> do people want to improve bridges in ottd first?
20:31:47  <Hirundo> what do you mean by that?
20:31:48  <supermop> (bridgeheads, custom sprite layouts etc)
20:31:56  <andythenorth> that would need ottd patched
20:32:16  <supermop> yeah, are they waiting to add bridges to nml until that happens?
20:32:30  <Hirundo> not really
20:33:07  <Hirundo> basically it's a combination of a) bridges are not used that much and b) bridges require special constructs / code (for the sprite property)
20:34:36  <Hirundo> There has been some discussion, see
20:36:21  <supermop> i am not sure which is more important to me - the ability to have bridges with more than 6 unique tiles, or the ability to code a bridge in nml
20:36:24  <Hirundo> If you want to get something done, providing patches generally helps, though in this case the low-hanging fruit is already picked
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20:37:05  <Hirundo> Alternatively, a use case (I need nml feature X to write grf Y, and look I already have these cool looking sprites) helps a lot, too
20:39:26  <Hirundo> supermop: Do you have a proposal for action123 for bridges?
20:40:44  *** Alberth [] has joined #openttd
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20:41:59  <supermop> what is that?
20:42:15  <supermop> i have ideas for things i'd like to be able to do
20:42:19  *** Zuu [] has joined #openttd
20:42:28  <supermop> and things i do in nfo take me forever
20:43:37  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
20:44:33  <Hirundo> supermop: Make an overview of what properties / variables / callbacks you'd like to add
20:44:59  <supermop> ok
20:46:17  <Zuu> The new speed limit feature by michi_cc made me think about a wild idea. Partial order lists.
20:46:38  <supermop> i love the speed limit thing
20:46:46  <supermop> have wanted that for ages
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20:47:03  <Zuu> And if you assign a partial order list to a waypoint, all vehicles that goes to that waypoint will execute that partial order after visiting the waypoint.
20:47:26  <Hirundo> use-case?
20:48:00  <Zuu> To create a few common partial order lists that you can reuse.
20:48:06  <Chav`> Hey all
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20:49:24  <Zuu> Though it is maybe just a wild idea with some inspiration from Vissim.
20:49:27  <Alberth> all hey!
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20:50:59  <Alberth> sounds very weird :)
20:54:10  <supermop> is it better to have all bridges be able to be used for all types of transit, or to have specific types of bridges exclusive to certain types of infrastructure?
20:55:11  <andythenorth> all types
20:55:12  <Zuu> Maybe the assignment to waypoint should rather be that you can define a partial order list for how to travel between two waypoints. So if a order list uses A -> Wp1 -> Wp2 -> B, you could have a partial order list defining an exact routing between Wp1 and Wp2 with speed limits. Only problem is that the waypoints you use to change speed limits need to not be counted towards partial order list selection. ...
20:55:18  <supermop> if a monorail bridge is the same price as a steel rail bridge, that eliminates one of the only real advantages of monorails
20:55:56  <supermop> (imagine the quintessential elevated monorail on concrete pillars)
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20:56:08  <Hirundo> both infrastructure-specific and generic bridges should be possible, methinks
20:56:34  <supermop> also a two-lane road on a rail tressel looks silly
20:57:49  <andythenorth> supermop: I have no particular preference - 'all types' just seems easier ;)
20:58:00  <supermop> but then a big suspension bridge, like the manhattan bridge, can an should be able to carry rail or road on any of its decks
20:58:18  <supermop> and that raises an idea about converting bridges
20:58:21  <andythenorth> so bridges gain a list of route types
20:58:37  <andythenorth> oh - converting was one reason I think they should be all types
20:58:42  <supermop> not just between rail types, but from rail to road
20:58:43  <andythenorth> otherwise big headache
20:58:53  <Hirundo> rail<>road is very tricky
20:58:58  <Snail_> Multiple-deck bridges in OTTD?
20:59:07  <andythenorth> Hirundo: GS? :)
20:59:11  <andythenorth> demolish-rebuild
20:59:24  <supermop> (as in brooklyn and manhattan bridges) where some of the rail and tram decks were converted to road
20:59:45  <Hirundo> could be done, needs additional coding in ottd though
21:00:02  <Snail_> The brooklyn bridge is a one-deck bridge ;)
21:00:12  <Hirundo> as far as I can tell (looking at ottd source now), all newgrf rail types use the rail bridges
21:00:24  <Hirundo> normal rail that is, not mono/mglv
21:00:30  <supermop> the passenger deck is elevated about the two road decks
21:00:30  <Snail_> Unless you count the pedestrian section, of course
21:00:49  <supermop> road decks are separate between north and south
21:01:16  <supermop> with call back you can do multiple decks as adjacent bridges detecting each other and changing graphics to look joined up
21:01:17  <Snail_> Yep but the elevated part is only accessible by pedestrians and bicycles
21:01:22  <supermop> but you dont save any money
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21:02:01  <supermop> (can do meaning could do if that was added to ottd)
21:04:58  <Snail_> The concept of changing graphics if two bridges are adjacent could also be possible for tunnels, if thf custom tunnel portals get implemented
21:10:24  <Hirundo> frosch123: ctt_include_mask / ctt_exclude_mask is never reset, so you can only set bits, not clear them. Is that intentional?
21:11:09  <andythenorth> ho ho ho
21:11:16  * andythenorth is reading pixels
21:11:19  <frosch123> no idea :)
21:11:30  <frosch123> railtype compatibility also behaves like that
21:11:42  <frosch123> everything else resets stuff upon reassignment though
21:13:22  <Hirundo> It means that if engine pool is off, cargos excluded this way can never be included by later grfs
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21:15:58  <Nat_AS> is there anyway to make industries free?
21:16:43  <Nat_AS> I forgot to turn on the manual industry newgrif and all the specificly placed factories in the scenerio I was playing expired
21:17:02  <Nat_AS> I want to rebuild them, but I don't want to use the moneyadd cheat
21:17:12  <Nat_AS> and can't afford 2mil
21:17:21  <Alberth> play a bit longer :)
21:17:47  <Nat_AS> not sure how I'd make that much money without factories
21:17:53  <Alberth> but no, you cannot build them for free
21:18:16  <Alberth> what's the point of asking 2mil for it otherwise :p
21:18:32  <Nat_AS> I have a nice oil and food chain (although half my farms vanished JUST as I was connecting to them) but I don't think I can expand without a factory to diliver to
21:18:39  <Nat_AS> and the only factory is on an ISLAND
21:18:48  <Alberth> you can transport passengers and mail :)
21:18:51  <Rhamphoryncus> woops!  Went afk while testing my timetabling fix and my town of 1000 grew to 7500 :D
21:18:55  * andythenorth embarks on insane project
21:19:05  <Nat_AS> seriously, scenerio devs ought to include manual industries always
21:19:10  * Alberth likes the insane project
21:19:18  <Nat_AS> fuck, industries not vanishing ought to be a toggle
21:19:30  <andythenorth> Alberth: you don't know what it is yet :P
21:19:50  <Hirundo> procedural graphics generation?
21:19:55  <Nat_AS> >Scenerio dev places industries in specific places for intresting gameplay
21:20:03  <Alberth> unfortunately, NewGRF is fully in control of industry closure, there is nothing the openttd program can do about it
21:20:21  <Nat_AS> >Game decides to distroy industrys and place them in illogical places
21:20:23  <Nat_AS> why?
21:20:45  <Alberth> andythenorth:  <-- is my guess
21:21:02  <Alberth> no, newgrf industry decides, and the program just follows
21:21:24  <andythenorth> Alberth: I invented a third method for that project
21:21:47  <Nat_AS> hmm, is there a Grif that can make industries free?
21:21:48  <Alberth> the newgrf spec makes it impossible to have control from the program
21:21:49  <Nat_AS> :P
21:22:10  <Alberth> no idea, but you are not able to add it to your running game :p
21:22:15  <Alberth> andythenorth: nice :)
21:22:17  <Nat_AS> yes I can :P
21:22:20  <Nat_AS> and I did
21:22:45  <Nat_AS> (turn on scenario developer.)
21:23:01  <Nat_AS> I sometimes swap out entire sets of newgrifs in the middle of the game
21:23:18  <Nat_AS> however you can't do this if you have anything from the old grif in existance
21:23:21  <Nat_AS> or it will crash I think
21:23:29  <Nat_AS> but if you are carefull it can work.
21:23:34  <V453000> sometimes it doesnt :)
21:23:55  <Alberth> things like vehicles are also part of the game data even if you cannot buy them yet
21:24:21  <Alberth> and industries that only 'exist' in the future :)
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21:27:38  <Wolf01> evenink
21:27:38  <Alberth> moin mr W
21:28:49  <Nat_AS> Ffffffffffffffffffffffff
21:29:11  <Nat_AS> I can't find an oil car in the tropic set
21:29:13  <Alberth> Nat_AS: and "does not crash" is not the same as "works". Usually some data is corrupted that will not cause trouble until much later
21:30:21  * Nat_AS shrugs
21:30:34  <Alberth> that could be a consequence of your newgrf changes :p
21:30:34  <Nat_AS> who is in charge of the tropic refurbishment set?
21:30:57  <Nat_AS> how? I have not messed with train newgrifs
21:31:01  <Nat_AS> just industries
21:31:44  <Alberth> indstries define cargo
21:32:08  <Alberth> so unless you have trains that do not transport cargo......
21:32:56  <Alberth> better test it in a clean environment first before reporting anything
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21:34:36  <Nat_AS> you might be right
21:34:51  <Nat_AS> just make a new game with just the tropic set and no other newgrifs in the same date
21:35:13  <Alberth> in your mind you have a picture how it works, but your picture may be very wrong
21:35:39  <Nat_AS> I guess so
21:37:48  <Alberth> it's normal behavior of the brain, and very hard to suppress as source
21:38:05  <Nat_AS> editing the scenerio with the manual industry newgrif added at the same date also has the proper cars
21:38:12  <Nat_AS> so it seems to be safe to add it then
21:38:53  <Alberth> you don't know, there are an awful lot of bits in a megabyte of data
21:39:05  <Nat_AS> I guess this solves both problems
21:39:08  <Nat_AS> :V
21:39:13  <Nat_AS> restart from the begining
21:39:25  <Alberth> :)
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21:41:47  <Nat_AS> I learned a lot about station design from this map
21:42:28  *** perk11 [~perk11@] has joined #openttd
21:42:48  <Nat_AS> and that it
21:42:59  <Nat_AS> it's almost always easier to start with industry
21:43:16  <Nat_AS> find a convenient one and use it to fund more complex ventures.
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21:43:48  <Nat_AS> AND, always buy the train with the lowest running cost that is strong enough to move the cargo
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21:46:55  * Alberth usually buys the train with the highest reliability
21:46:57  <Nat_AS> also, trams are better than trucks
21:47:12  <Nat_AS> well reliability is important too
21:47:13  <Alberth> I always forget to include a newgrf for them :)
21:47:50  <andythenorth> hoho ho
21:47:50  <Nat_AS> but it can be hard to earn a profit if your train with a million HP is eating all the income with it's maintnance bills.
21:47:58  * andythenorth is nearly drawing trucks with code
21:48:20  <Nat_AS> cargo trams are like trucks without pathfindingissues
21:48:30  <Alberth> I always play with the default set, which is not that expensive :)
21:48:31  <Nat_AS> although articulated trucks are awesome
21:48:40  <Nat_AS> esp the tractor ones.
21:48:40  <Rubidium> andythenorth: if only you could be coding with draw ;)
21:48:45  <Nat_AS> they look so cool.
21:49:00  <Nat_AS> Rubidium: I fucking wish
21:49:34  <Nat_AS> I think artists would be better programers than programers if there was a programing language that could parse art into code.
21:49:36  <Alberth> andythenorth: using a visual programming language?
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21:50:02  <Nat_AS> that way games with good art would also have good code
21:50:03  <Zuu> Nat_AS: Trams in OpenTTD are however very prone to lockups if you have a tiny error in your tram tracks in city center where you can't easily resolve a track leading into a building.
21:50:05  <Nat_AS> and visa versa
21:50:26  <Alberth> Nat_AS: that exists :)
21:50:47  <Nat_AS> yes, but because you place the track yourself, you don't have to worry about truck pathfinding
21:50:49  <Rubidium> Alberth: I don't think labview is suitable for OpenTTD-ish things
21:51:09  <Nat_AS> which seems to want to make right turns just because they can
21:51:43  <Alberth> Rubidium: that's not a visual programming language, it's just pretending to be one :)
21:52:00  <andythenorth> Alberth: I used visual programming languages before.  I hated them
21:52:06  <andythenorth> I was...younger
21:52:15  <Nat_AS> that's an inneficant programing language
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21:52:19  <andythenorth> right now I'm just having 'adventures with PIL'
21:52:24  <Nat_AS> that uses bitmaps instead of text strigs
21:52:27  <Rubidium> andythenorth: okay, then Visual Basic ;)
21:52:28  <Nat_AS> strings
21:52:37  <Rubidium> s/andythenorth/Alberth/
21:52:44  <andythenorth> I never saw the benefit in visual programming
21:52:56  <Nat_AS> suposed to be easier
21:52:56  <andythenorth> it's like cooking soup underwater
21:53:03  <Nat_AS> IDK though
21:53:03  <Rubidium> andythenorth: less typos for dyslexic people
21:53:08  <Alberth> never played with VB :)
21:53:18  <Rubidium> and more spaghetti
21:53:20  <Nat_AS> ha nice metaphor.
21:53:46  <Alberth> I once saw a c++ program where you could draw a box, and it would compute the volume of it :p
21:53:47  <Nat_AS> a GUI Newgrif complier would be nice to have
21:53:49  <Rubidium> I especially like the "example" labview code on the net... jpg
21:54:03  <Nat_AS> feed it PNGs and type values into boxes,
21:54:04  <Prof_Frink> VB is easier than V0.
21:54:11  <Nat_AS> and it will churn out .grfs
21:54:31  <Nat_AS> maybe even edit the sprites in the same program
21:54:36  <Alberth> Nat_AS: that's called grfmaker
21:54:40  *** Chris_Booth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:54:43  <Nat_AS> it exists?
21:54:55  *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth
21:54:56  <andythenorth> Nat_AS: like the BANDIT-building CMS I made?
21:55:04  <andythenorth> it's only for me, due to security issues
21:55:27  <Alberth> I am told it does, it doesn't run at my system  so I never tried it
21:55:59  <Nat_AS> intresting
21:56:16  <Nat_AS> but a polished one,maybe even built into OTTD would be cool
21:56:20  * andythenorth needs a palette with numbers on it
21:56:34  <Nat_AS> or at least a standalone app that has the same style GUI
21:56:52  <Alberth> paint on it would be more useful perhaps :)
21:57:38  <Nat_AS> the paint functonality would probably be for checking and adjusting alignment
21:58:47  <Nat_AS> but you could also in theroy draw the whole thing in it if you really hate paint.
21:58:51  <Alberth> andythenorth:    does this look ok? (not sure it is the right palette)
21:59:29  <Nat_AS> it would have ISO lines and croshairs for alignment checking.
21:59:50  <Nat_AS> a program for isometric pixel art would be nice to have period
21:59:56  <andythenorth> Alberth: I'd have to check it matches the palette I have :)
22:00:03  <andythenorth> I can actually just get PIL to print out ids
22:00:14  <Nat_AS> with lines that snap to the exact 2:1 grid lines
22:00:22  <Nat_AS> and easy layers
22:00:39  <Nat_AS> most graphics programs with layers suck at pixel art
22:00:57  <Alberth> andythenorth: just make your own palette with numbers with PIL :)
22:01:00  <Nat_AS> and MS paint only has one layer (why it does not have that basic feature even today baffles me)
22:02:16  <Alberth> layers is not a basic feature for the average win* user
22:02:32  <Nat_AS> Hurrrr M$
22:04:05  <Nat_AS> right now I sometimes play aroundin SAI, but that is in no way for pixel art
22:04:16  <Nat_AS> or anything that's not freehand painting
22:04:22  <Nat_AS> it does not even have rulers
22:04:40  <Nat_AS> I'd like to see a program that makes isometric grid rulers
22:05:19  <Rubidium> after all, paint is to write a letter ;)
22:05:34  <Nat_AS> Pppphahahahat
22:05:34  <Rubidium> and word is to draw (vector-ish) images
22:05:41  <Nat_AS> do people do that?
22:05:58  <Rubidium> you'd be amazed
22:07:05  <Rubidium> the preferred format for sending images by someone on my work is actually in an excel file
22:07:21  <Rubidium> (and sadly enough I'm serious about that)
22:07:31  <Nat_AS> why not powerpoint
22:07:36  <Nat_AS> bitches love powerpoint
22:07:43  <andythenorth> Nat_AS: I just use photoshop
22:07:59  <Rubidium> Nat_AS: because powerpoint thinks for you and starts resizing the shit out of stuff
22:08:25  <Nat_AS> photoshop is expensive, Gimp has an awquard GUI, and Sai is freehand only
22:08:27  <Rubidium> and then things aren't the same size between slides anymore and that annoys me
22:08:44  <Nat_AS> and all of them are overkill for pixel art
22:09:09  <Nat_AS> you have to turn a million things off just to get a single pixel instead of a brush
22:09:17  * andythenorth has one bugbear about python: it refuses && for logical ANDY
22:09:28  <andythenorth> logical ANDY?
22:09:32  <andythenorth> logical AND :P
22:09:38  *** Rhamphoryncus [] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus]
22:10:07  <Rubidium> andythenorth: just run it through a preprocessor that replaces && with and
22:10:15  <andythenorth> oic :P
22:10:22  <andythenorth> or patch python?
22:10:55  <Rubidium> that'd be the easy way out
22:11:01  <Nat_AS> why don't more scenerios start before 1950?
22:11:13  <Nat_AS> that's like cutting out half the game
22:11:25  <Rubidium> I'd suggest writing a CPU in VHDL that catches that corner case in hardware and replaces it with the appropriate code ;)
22:11:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23952 /trunk/ (11 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: [NewGRF] Customisable tunnel portals for rail types (sprites by Snail).
22:11:51  <Rubidium> because before 1950 many vehicle (types) are not necessarily available
22:12:10  <Nat_AS> needs to be more legacy types
22:13:07  <Nat_AS> well the grifs I play with do have shit like horsedrawn carrages
22:13:28  <Nat_AS> I think when I restart my game, I'm gonna set the start date to 1900
22:13:32  <Nat_AS> :3
22:13:51  <supermop> want to draw sprites at work
22:13:59  <Nat_AS> then when high tech maglev shit comes out, I will be able to afrord them
22:14:00  <Nat_AS> :V
22:14:11  <supermop> but coworkers are around so can't use the big imac with PS
22:14:18  <Rubidium> in theory you can set it to ~0, just takes a long time before you're finding any newgrf that supports vehicles for that era
22:14:25  <supermop> and there is not ms paint type thing on this macbook
22:14:27  <Nat_AS> AH
22:14:46  <Nat_AS> New vehicle type, SLAVES
22:14:59  <Nat_AS> no running cost
22:15:02  <Nat_AS> but really slow
22:15:31  <Nat_AS> too bad you can't make towns and industries change with time (can you?)
22:15:39  <Nat_AS> I want to make an antiquity grif now.
22:16:05  <Nat_AS> with slave carried litters, runners carrying mail, caravans for cargo
22:16:12  <Nat_AS> maybe Spice and silk cargo types.
22:17:35  * Alberth thought Spice was only available at Dune
22:18:24  <Nat_AS> Frankensense and Mir
22:18:34  <Nat_AS> also, Irakis map
22:18:41  <Nat_AS> to replace toyland
22:18:51  <Alberth> but I like toyland!
22:19:26  <Nat_AS> better idea to replace toyland is internet map type
22:19:37  <Nat_AS> towns are socal networks
22:19:56  <Nat_AS> cargos are Clicks, Likes, lulz, ect
22:20:03  <Nat_AS> trains are based on memes
22:20:22  * Nat_AS just wants to see a longcat express
22:20:32  <Terkhen> good luck drawing / coding that
22:20:41  <andythenorth> V453000 ^
22:20:52  <andythenorth> ;)
22:20:58  <Alberth> there was a tron-like idea recently where those would fit in very good imho
22:21:07  <V453000> I already heard that from him andy dont worry :p
22:21:15  <Nat_AS> Yeah, I'd imagine the map would look like tron
22:21:21  <Nat_AS> and the tracks would be light beams
22:21:22  <andythenorth> Alberth: '9' in my image is pink.  whereas in my palette and yours it's grey :)
22:21:43  <Rubidium> tron is long gone
22:21:53  * andythenorth may have to adventure in palettes
22:22:13  <Nat_AS> OH, the trains would start out as tron style things in the 80s, but slowly morph into modern internet memes in the 2000s
22:22:38  <Nat_AS> game cannot be played prior to the 70s-80s
22:22:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23953 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5062]: When the population of a town changes the town view might even have to change size due to different cargo requirements.
22:22:55  <Alberth> you'd miss out all the disco colours !
22:23:39  <Nat_AS> SHIT!
22:23:41  <Nat_AS> gotta go
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22:27:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23954 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix (r23952): Update required grfcodec version.
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22:36:54  <andythenorth>
22:37:13  <andythenorth>
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22:38:48  <Chris_Booth> hi
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22:40:27  <frosch123> night
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22:42:59  * andythenorth basically draws the floor plan in construction colours.  Each colour maps to a sequence of other colours, which are drawn in the y direction
22:44:15  <Hirundo> next step: a floor plan generator? ;-)
22:44:18  <andythenorth> nope
22:44:22  <andythenorth> :)
22:44:39  <andythenorth> I considered trying to do 3D transforms and things for each angle needed
22:45:10  <andythenorth> but this way is easy.  I just draw the plan for each angle + length needed ;)
22:45:31  <andythenorth> tanker trailers will be...interesting
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22:47:24  <supermop> draw the meridian of the tank, have it then draw down and up for you?
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22:58:16  <dihedral> good evening
23:00:01  <xiong> Is there any way at all for user to assign hotkeys?
23:02:01  <andythenorth> supermop: good idea
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23:05:18  <andythenorth> oh dear
23:05:21  <andythenorth> where's frosch?
23:07:15  <andythenorth> Rubidium: I have just worked out how to do the (quite simple joke) of encoding nfo in a bitmap then reading it with PIL
23:07:29  <andythenorth> what I can't figure out is how to tie XML into this joke
23:07:31  <andythenorth> :P
23:07:40  <valhallasw> andythenorth: import xmlrpclib
23:07:52  <valhallasw> and create a SOAP web service
23:09:02  <valhallasw> or maybe create enterprise integration with SAP! At least, I guess they use XML. Maybe they intermix it with COBOL?
23:09:29  <andythenorth> I could arbitrarily limit the size of the input png
23:09:41  <andythenorth> then force the use of XML to tie a stream of pngs together
23:10:15  <andythenorth> that might be an amusing limitation
23:11:10  <andythenorth> also I propose to encode using 4px squares (2x2), to make it 'easier' to draw
23:11:29  <andythenorth> which will need error checking to see if all pixels in a square are same :D
23:11:40  <andythenorth> when is April 1st this year?
23:11:53  <valhallasw> in about 6 weeks
23:14:17  <Mazur> I believe for a change they've put it directly after March 31st?
23:14:34  <Mazur> I don't know why.
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23:17:51  <andythenorth> hmm
23:18:11  * andythenorth stops plotting april fool stupidity
23:18:20  <andythenorth> procedural truck body drawing just kind of works
23:18:29  * andythenorth hmm
23:18:55  <andythenorth> lighting for different angles - would I use transforms, or just manually code different sequences?
23:21:09  <andythenorth> eddi would know :P
23:25:09  <supermop> just made an ad-hoc tyvek wallet
23:25:25  <supermop> out of a used envelope
23:26:34  <andythenorth> how handy
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23:28:36  <supermop> my real wallet was quite worn and ratty and i havent been able to decide between buying a fancy new one or making one out of leather myself (would take more hours than the fancy one costs)
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23:28:57  <supermop> and felt bad about throwing away the envelope as it was still in near new shape
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23:33:28  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:42:14  * andythenorth -> bed
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