Log for #openttd on 16th February 2012:
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00:16:01  <Terkhen> good night
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00:46:54  <Nat_as> you guys
00:46:58  <Nat_as> made me late for class
00:47:47  <__ln__> nobody has classes at midnight
00:47:58  <Nat_as> it's 4pm for me
00:48:16  <Nat_as> and it was 1:30 when I had my class
00:48:51  <Nat_as> man, "Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only" are the best rules Ever
00:50:53  <planetmaker> you'll laugh how often they're necessary to be pointed out ;-)
00:53:57  <Nat_as> I believe you.
00:54:09  <Nat_as> more than  Believe the using MS paint to write letters
00:54:46  <Nat_as> man, I have to start the WHOLE MAP AGGAIN
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00:54:47  <Nat_as> :C
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01:01:25  <Nat_as> am I the only one who always turns off "Towns can build roads"?
01:04:51  <Nat_as> because fuck town
01:04:53  <Nat_as> towns
01:10:54  <DabuYu> Nat_as: that means that towns don't grow otherwise, if you don't maintain it themselves?
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01:11:16  <DabuYu> towns do should grow in a better way (like prefering square grids) than they do now :)
01:11:29  <Nat_as> I build roads for them
01:11:37  <Nat_as> around my stations
01:11:46  <DabuYu> oh i sometimes do that too, but there's so many towns around the map
01:11:48  <Nat_as> growing towns is like growing bonsai.
01:11:53  <DabuYu> lol
01:11:58  <Nat_as> well only the towns connected to your network matter
01:12:04  <DabuYu> of course
01:15:42  <Nat_as> also depeding on the map, they are also the only ones that grow
01:19:30  <Nat_as> I don't think perfect squares are important, but it should try to make some effort at forming city blocks
01:19:34  <Nat_as> and not going crazy
01:19:46  <Nat_as> maybe a list of acceptable shapes
01:20:27  <Nat_as> roads should not be next to each other, and should also try to avoid gaps wider than 4x4 because then nothing will be built inside the hole
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02:27:04  <Nat_as> hail lord pixall
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03:20:52  <Nat_as> do stations have to be continuious for a tram to unload in it?
03:20:57  <Nat_as> does it have to cover the entire lenght?
03:21:02  <Nat_as> for the longer cargo trams
03:21:14  <Nat_as> and long trucks in general I guess.
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04:39:43  <DabuYu> Nat_as: late reply, but no, it's not necessary - but the unloading process goes faster when it's the right length (at least for trains it does)
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05:24:18  <Nat_as> do prices of tunnels ever change?
05:24:22  <Nat_as> like become cheaper?
05:24:27  <Nat_as> as time progresses?
05:24:34  <Nat_as> because I don't remember them this expensive.
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07:49:20  <Nat_as> hmm
07:49:49  <Nat_as> what if there was snow plows in arctic maps
07:49:50  <Nat_as>
07:50:08  <Nat_as> that were nessary above the snow line to prevent trains from slowing down.
07:50:38  <peter1138> there are snow plows in some newgrf sets
07:51:26  <peter1138> *plough
07:51:50  <Nat_as> do they have a mechanical effect or is it just cosmetic?
07:51:55  <peter1138> cosmetic probably
07:51:59  <Nat_as> I like it when things like cabooses have effects
07:52:29  <Nat_as> like freight trains need them unless the cars have continuous brakes.
07:52:41  <Nat_as> or passinger trains need an engine with a steam heat unit.
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08:17:20  <Nat_as>
08:17:22  <Nat_as> I want this
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08:17:26  <Nat_as> somebody make a newgrif of it
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08:33:56  <Nat_as> Hey andythenorth
08:33:59  <Nat_as> you missed this
08:34:02  <Nat_as>
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08:58:51  <peter1138> somebody(tm)
08:59:25  <peter1138> it appears to be quite massive
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09:12:01  <Nat_as> yes
09:12:41  <Nat_as> although the centennial and big boy are only .5 cars long in the original sets so your mileage may vary.
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09:13:20  <Nat_as> I'd just make this a 4 car long engine that can only carry high capacity passenger and mail cars.
09:13:38  <Nat_as> three front cars, and one tail car are part of the engine.
09:13:47  <Nat_as> and you add in doublestack cars in the middle.
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09:47:21  <dihedral> greetings
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09:47:27  <Nat_as> hi
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09:51:38  * dihedral scrolls through bugs. in the hope to find something to do ^^
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10:59:48  <dihedral> TrueBrain, is there an api available to the openttd website? e.g. authentication?
11:02:02  <TrueBrain> API for news, yes, RSS; API for WT3, yes, Frontend uses it. API for bugs, yes, RSS. And a few more of those. Authentication, of course not. We are not an Signon Broker :)
11:02:34  <dihedral> :-P
11:02:55  <dihedral> i was wondering if i could create a thingy for the admin port that would authenticate against openttd accounts ^^
11:03:21  <dihedral> via SOAP... via SOAP... :-P
11:03:36  <TrueBrain> I was about to comment you can of course via the most obvious way in front of you
11:03:41  <TrueBrain> but via SOAP: never
11:04:03  <dihedral> sending a post request :-P
11:04:22  <TrueBrain> just make a HTTP POST, yes :P But .. that I would not really appreciate
11:04:25  <TrueBrain> for the obvious reasons
11:04:47  <peter1138> dihedral gets all our passwords
11:04:48  <peter1138> nice one
11:04:49  <TrueBrain> in regards to logins on a server, I have some drafts to make a trusted chain, but .. hmm .. dont seem to have the time to implement any of it
11:05:16  <dihedral> i would not start doing posts to the server, which is why i asked for an api ;-)
11:05:20  <TrueBrain> peter1138: and for exactly that reason I would dsadvise anyone from using such login 'portal's :D
11:05:23  <dihedral> else i would have just gone ahead ^^
11:05:58  <TrueBrain> it all doesnt really matter; how ever we play broker, we cannot give any promises you (or anyone else) doesnt .. 'use' the password for other goals
11:06:13  <Rhamphoryncus> TrueBrain: you admin the website?  Does that include the wiki?
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11:06:21  <dihedral> who says i need to send username and password? i could simply ask "is this ip authenticated" :-P
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11:06:30  <TrueBrain> if anything, the client has to contact our server directly, get a token back, with which you can do validation
11:06:57  <TrueBrain> dihedral: too many people are behind the same IP
11:07:02  <TrueBrain> doesnt really give any form of trust
11:07:03  <dihedral> sadly
11:07:36  <TrueBrain> @topic 4
11:07:36  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: topic [<channel>]
11:07:40  <TrueBrain> @topic #openttd 4
11:07:40  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: topic [<channel>]
11:07:41  <TrueBrain> hmm
11:07:46  <TrueBrain> how does that crappy thing work?
11:07:47  <dihedral> @topic get 4
11:07:47  <DorpsGek> dihedral: 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever
11:07:57  <TrueBrain> @topic get 3
11:07:57  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Don't ask to ask, just ask
11:07:57  <dihedral> ;-)
11:08:00  <TrueBrain> Rhamphoryncus: ^^
11:08:02  <TrueBrain> tnx dihedral
11:08:30  <dihedral> you're welcome
11:08:53  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, turns out asking first is sometimes a good idea.  Otherwise I'd just repeat the same annoying every couple hours :P
11:09:00  <dihedral> would you (want to) implement that directly into openttd
11:09:11  <TrueBrain> dihedral: if anything, it is required, in my opinion
11:09:18  <dihedral> Rhamphoryncus, only untill you get the first kick :-P
11:09:19  <TrueBrain> I dont see another way without leaving us open to a shitton of abuse :P
11:09:57  <Rhamphoryncus> dihedral: which only makes me that much more right in asking first.  Don't ask a question unless you expect someone can answer.
11:10:23  <dihedral> no - ask once, if of interest someone will answer*
11:10:26  <dihedral> *in due time
11:10:27  <TrueBrain> but dont except anyone can answer, without asking the question
11:10:34  <Rhamphoryncus> Anyway, thumbnail files are often much, much larger than the original image.  Known issue?
11:10:52  <dihedral> too much meta data
11:10:52  <TrueBrain> , Website section? Dunno ..
11:10:54  <dihedral> :-P
11:10:57  <Rhamphoryncus> dihedral: my experience here is to the contrary
11:11:06  <dihedral> ...
11:11:21  * dihedral was not being serious
11:11:34  <Rhamphoryncus> ah
11:11:46  <dihedral> TrueBrain, what about using s/mime certs? :-P
11:12:21  <TrueBrain> with NoGo the conversation pretty quickly ended up on servers which keep score
11:12:24  <TrueBrain> so you can compare etc
11:12:34  <TrueBrain> with that the reaslisation came that only works if you can uniquely identify people
11:12:45  <TrueBrain> I once tried it with 'uniqueid' in openttd.cfg, but that was a ... huge failure :P
11:12:54  <TrueBrain> as people copy their config WAY too much :P
11:13:21  <TrueBrain> so only other sane solution I could think off, was a centralized authentication with validation tokens for NoGo scripts to handle (which of course gets offloaded to the admin port)
11:13:28  <dihedral> yes, but checking back with the master server could say if 'a' client is already online with that s/mime cert
11:13:48  <TrueBrain> too much bookkeeping
11:13:56  <dihedral> think so?
11:14:06  <dihedral> how so?
11:14:13  <TrueBrain> well, I guess it depends
11:14:21  <TrueBrain> I guess it is the same as a validation token
11:14:25  <TrueBrain> which have to be stored either way
11:14:29  <dihedral> aye
11:14:37  <dihedral> but you already have a backend
11:14:50  <TrueBrain> but if you are only interested in clients
11:14:52  <TrueBrain> you already know that
11:15:00  <TrueBrain> I assume you want some kind of trust based on the name of that client
11:15:11  <dihedral> but you are interested in knowing the client ;-)
11:15:32  <dihedral> and if you get the feedback of - this cert is being used on 2 other servers ...
11:15:45  <dihedral> rather 1 other server, do not allow the connection
11:16:02  <TrueBrain> and that part is a bit too much bookkeeping :P
11:16:10  <TrueBrain> I was thinking a lot more simpler :)
11:16:17  <dihedral> it's a mysql db entry - hash -> server
11:16:19  <TrueBrain> as I dont care if you are logged in to 12 servers :P
11:16:32  <Rubidium> dihedral: maybe you can finish joan and friends to become a working replacement for AP(+)?
11:16:37  <dihedral> but then i create an account and share it with 12 others
11:16:48  <dihedral> Rubidium, :-)
11:16:57  <dihedral> i am already working on that ;-)
11:17:00  <TrueBrain> dihedral: against our TOS :P
11:17:02  <peter1138> is a n-bit crypto key that starts with a 0 bit an n-bit key or an (n-1)-bit key?
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11:17:26  <dihedral> TrueBrain, but how would you check up on that without a bit of bookkeeping
11:17:42  <TrueBrain> not. that is the point
11:18:18  <TrueBrain> sounds like a pain in the tits if you can only be logged in to 1 server
11:18:29  <dihedral> what if that depends on the server?
11:18:34  <TrueBrain> of course if you know which client is connected, you can deny access to a client in a cluster of servers
11:18:44  <TrueBrain> but that is up to an admin script; not from the centralized point of view
11:19:04  <TrueBrain> all you as admin script want to know is: is this client really who he says he is
11:19:22  <TrueBrain> a simple 0/1 :)
11:20:03  <dihedral> i would accept a 0-255, 0 false, 1 - you are the first server, 2 you are the second server ...
11:20:14  <TrueBrain> and again, that is too much bookkeeping
11:20:21  <TrueBrain> it is not our job, as, to keep track of that
11:20:25  <TrueBrain> that is your job, as admin script
11:20:33  <dihedral> ok :-)
11:20:37  <dihedral> can be done ^^
11:20:48  <TrueBrain> exactly
11:21:08  <dihedral> however only if a unique id is then sent to the admin script
11:21:10  <TrueBrain> and it ensures us that things can only go wrong on a cluster of servers, as in .. hmm .. how to say this delecate without offending any possible loggers .. :P
11:21:21  <TrueBrain> if you decide in your cluster of servers to only allow to be logged in to 1 server
11:21:23  <TrueBrain> that is fine
11:21:23  <dihedral> :-D
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11:21:33  <TrueBrain> but dont fuck a client over by not allowing him to login to another cluster of servers :)
11:21:38  <TrueBrain> that is a bit the mean idea :)
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11:23:45  <TrueBrain> anyway, doing the validation of a client is kinda hard :)
11:23:52  <TrueBrain> so many options and posibilities
11:24:02  <TrueBrain> do you ask for a username / password, and change the nickname to the username?
11:24:07  <TrueBrain> do you allow custom nicknames?
11:24:18  <TrueBrain> does our website give you a token you use as validation of your account? (as client)
11:26:05  <TrueBrain> or, in reverse, does the server give you a token you have to enter in our website to allow that server access to validate you?
11:26:12  <dihedral> i would not tamper with the chosen username, but i would set a username stored in the token / cert in order for admins to see, or displayed in the clients command
11:26:29  <dihedral> that method would be nice, but too slow
11:26:42  <dihedral> unless openttd does that itself
11:27:06  <dihedral> or ;-)
11:28:24  <dihedral> client joins server, client informs ottd of the server it is joining, ottd sends ack to server
11:28:43  <dihedral> of course only if the server is known to ottd
11:28:58  <TrueBrain> what my optimal form is: when you go to multiplayer, you can select 2 modes: authenticated servers, and non-authenticated servers. For the first, you get a login button, where you enter your username + password, and allows you to join both authenticated and non-authenticated. The last works with a nickname only.
11:29:12  <TrueBrain> but that is kinda a huge step for OpenTTD
11:30:17  <TrueBrain> dihedral: how it is done on a technical level is not really in order here. The question is much more: how do you present it to the client
11:31:07  <TrueBrain> authenticated servers can have a few perks, like a company can lock down immediatly, and that you can add usernames to a whitelist, for example
11:31:16  <TrueBrain> which, to just talk crazy, can be configured on
11:31:25  <TrueBrain> (I am just being silly here and thinking out loud, mind you)
11:32:02  <dihedral> why would it be a too huge step for ottd?
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11:32:33  <TrueBrain> gradial changes are always easier :)
11:33:20  <dihedral> an extra login button on the main menu
11:33:21  <dihedral> :-P
11:33:27  <peter1138> all good fun when your auth server goes down and you can longer play
11:33:31  <TrueBrain> what I just suggested is not only an extra button :)
11:33:41  <dihedral> + console commands, so it could be scripted with the autostart script
11:33:56  <TrueBrain> peter1138: as much harm as the MSU goes down, I imagine
11:34:05  <TrueBrain> which .. happen to be on the same server
11:34:07  <dihedral> aye
11:34:11  <peter1138> true
11:34:32  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Just implement OAuth!
11:34:59  <dihedral> blathijs, but that does not stop people from having tons of accounts ;-)
11:35:01  <blathijs> (though that's more web-focused..)
11:35:12  <dihedral> this way TrueBrain has to give away the account details manually :-D
11:35:13  <TrueBrain> and doesnt really give help to how to present it to the client, does it? :)
11:35:31  <dihedral> why would the client be that much affected
11:35:45  <dihedral> a login button, a popup window with username / password would be all the client gets to notice
11:36:04  <dihedral> an extra padlock with open / closed symbol in the server list ...
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11:36:33  <blathijs> dihedral: Not sure why you want to stop people from having a ton of accounts, couldn't find the reason in my backlog (though I didn't read supercarefully)
11:36:41  <dihedral> i would not change anything regarding the companies in the game
11:37:03  <dihedral> blathijs, the backlog would probably go back a few years for this topic ;-)
11:37:21  <dihedral> it's to prevent those causing trouble to constantly join with new accounts
11:37:42  <TrueBrain> just use a karma system for that
11:37:44  <blathijs> Ah, it's about banning :-)
11:37:56  <dihedral> it's about knowing who joins
11:37:59  <blathijs> I thought it was about using your account to administrate a server
11:38:04  <TrueBrain> well, I was more talking about statistics, but he :)
11:38:13  <TrueBrain> blathijs: hmm, that is a nice one too :P
11:38:20  <dihedral> user tracking ;-)
11:38:26  <dihedral> and then selling the data to ....
11:38:33  <dihedral> :-P
11:39:12  <dihedral> i was getting tons of ad requests to one of my webservers, where the query included the size of the img to use, etc.
11:39:34  <dihedral> i was about to add an image of openttd
11:39:47  <dihedral> so they all place an openttd ad banner on their pages
11:40:14  <TrueBrain> afk a few, roommate needs help
11:40:15  <dihedral> however i decided to go for a rewrite rule wich forwarded them to a php script which gave a 404 and added the source ip to the iptables list with -j DROP ^^
11:42:34  <blathijs> :-)
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11:42:38  <dihedral> 77 hosts gathered so far ^^
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11:47:50  <Arafangion> dihedral: A very significant number!
11:48:42  <dihedral> 77 hosts requesting an image with every request those severs get is not a small number
11:48:52  <dihedral> i had something like an extra 45GB of traffic in 2 days
11:49:24  <dihedral> even though all requests ran into a 404
11:49:32  <Rhamphoryncus> dihedral: image that says "This image is requested from the wrong site.  Here's some rick astley instead."
11:49:33  <dihedral> (before i added the script)
11:49:42  <dihedral> hehe
11:50:03  <dihedral> that would have been even more traffic for me ^^
11:50:09  <Rhamphoryncus> Ouch, okay, drop rule wins on that one
11:50:32  <dihedral> not that i am concerned about the traffic, but on that server i prefer having less activity than too much
11:50:49  <Rhamphoryncus> Could make 1% produce the image instead :D
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11:51:53  <Rhamphoryncus> Or "This html-monkey is incompetent, got the image host wrong, and probably sleeps with their mother."
11:53:09  <dihedral> i could just sell ad space :-P
11:53:46  <Rhamphoryncus> LOL
11:54:35  <Xaroth> return a 302 redirecting them to goatse ?
11:54:37  <blathijs> dihedral: Or doe a 301 redirect to some big image on their own site ;-p
11:55:08  <Arafangion> Nah, have it redirect to some large file on a *different* site!
11:55:13  <dihedral> a 301 was not working - the script must have been quite bad as the request still ran onto my ip
11:55:25  <dihedral> i tried to redirect them to google :-P
11:55:43  <TrueBrain> I would never permaban such IPs, doesnt have any list of such kind, no, not at all
11:56:28  <TrueBrain> just tearpit those IPs, just because it can be done
11:56:40  <dihedral> tearpit?
11:56:45  <TrueBrain> TCP default timeout is 480 seconds, so ..
11:56:56  <TrueBrain> accept the connection, ack it, and let it sit there
11:57:01  <dihedral> lol
11:57:06  <TrueBrain> (close it on your side without RST)
11:57:16  <TrueBrain> so their side builds up a shitload of 'open' connections
11:57:23  <TrueBrain> should teach them not to be rude
11:58:04  <TrueBrain> that is how I deal with email spammers too
11:58:42  <TrueBrain> abusing the nature of TCP I guess
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12:02:59  <TrueBrain> anyway, dihedral, the best solution I can think off as a quick solution would be if the adminport gives an URL to the clients connecting to validate themself, and that on we create something to do that :P But it sounds like a lot of work for a hack :D
12:04:24  <dihedral> you mean something like<hash>
12:04:39  <TrueBrain> yeah
12:04:49  <dihedral> and they then log in to the website? and then the server gets an ack from the master server?
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12:05:08  <TrueBrain> the first, yes, the second, no
12:05:15  <dihedral> in which case i can imagine bugs. overflowing with 'allow copy and paste' or 'embed an html browser'
12:05:16  <TrueBrain> the first would also be like: if you are already logged in, you press a button
12:05:23  <TrueBrain> yup
12:05:32  <Arafangion> What do you guys do when the scammers spam that<hash> site?
12:05:33  <TrueBrain> that is why I dont like it and called it a hack :D
12:05:51  <dihedral> i do not like it either
12:05:52  <Arafangion> Or rather, the site that gives teh hash - or does the openttd server itself give it?
12:06:04  <dihedral> the ottd server gives the hash
12:06:19  <TrueBrain> nah, dont be silly :)
12:06:29  <dihedral> aye
12:06:31  <TrueBrain> it would be in the form of <uniqueserveridrequestedbyadminport>/<hash>
12:06:44  <Arafangion> dihedral: It actually sounds prefectly reasonable to me, provided the openttd client allows you to click on such a link, and have it appear in a browser.
12:06:47  <TrueBrain> where hash is md5("thingtoldtheserverbyadminport" + username)
12:06:55  <dihedral> i quite like the idea of s/mime certs - as you have your token with that, and you can store further details in the cert
12:07:22  <TrueBrain> keep trying :D
12:07:26  <dihedral> pfft
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12:08:23  <TrueBrain> it is too complex for a simple: yeah, this user is valid, system :)
12:08:31  <dihedral> all one needs to add is a setting in the config: path to cert, and send the modulus to the server, the server then talks to the master server passing the modulus and gets information such as valid/not valid, and username
12:08:36  <TrueBrain> we are not going to store any other information than: yes, I know this user, and it is valid :)
12:09:21  <dihedral> you do not have to - all you need to store is the token (which you must anyway) but you still have the ability to revoke them
12:09:39  <dihedral> the other information is stored inside the token
12:09:53  <TrueBrain> which is not what we are going to do :)
12:09:56  <TrueBrain> that is for an adminport to do
12:10:03  <Ammler> why is oauth bad for this?
12:10:11  <TrueBrain> wuth? Who said that?
12:10:39  <Ammler> because it sounds like you prefer to find a own solution :-)
12:10:50  <TrueBrain> I guess I have to repeat myself again .. one sec :D
12:11:07  <TrueBrain> [11:42] <TrueBrain> dihedral: how it is done on a technical level is not really in order here. The question is much more: how do you present it to the client
12:11:34  <TrueBrain> and I guess we can add: and what information the adminport receives :P
12:11:50  <TrueBrain> but that will only be: user is authenticated yes/no :)
12:12:26  <dihedral> the admin port would have to receive more information than authenticated yes/no ;-)
12:12:41  <TrueBrain> which is exactly why I dont want it; it shouldnt!
12:12:48  <TrueBrain> any information it has, it should have gathered himself
12:12:56  <Ammler> well, username
12:13:03  <TrueBrain> is _not_ in the business of distributing information of users
12:13:22  <TrueBrain> Ammler: it only tells you if a client with a username is authenticated, meaning that is his username on the site, yes :P
12:13:30  <TrueBrain> but that is an implication of the authenticated part :)
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12:15:09  <dihedral> TrueBrain, regarding buiding statistics across a cluster, the admin port needs a constant hash ;-)
12:15:21  <TrueBrain> like said, it has a username
12:15:26  <TrueBrain> it is all it needs, and should want
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12:15:40  <dihedral> but the username can be changed
12:15:46  <TrueBrain> a cluster on its turn can than have a site where you can give additional information for all I care, but that is not's job
12:15:52  <TrueBrain> can you change your username on
12:15:54  <TrueBrain> that is completely new to me
12:15:58  <Ammler> dihedral: but then he needs to register again
12:16:11  <Ammler> nickname != username
12:16:17  <TrueBrain> exactly
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12:16:32  <dihedral> TrueBrain, ah ;-) i was not aware that you want to then force the person to also play by that username ;-)
12:16:43  <TrueBrain> well, I tempt very much to that
12:16:46  <TrueBrain> but tbh, I dont fucking care
12:16:51  <dihedral> of course it is nice as that way you can reserve a nick across all servers that support the auth system
12:16:55  <TrueBrain> as long as the login is username/password, *shrug*
12:16:57  <Ammler> maybe that can be a server setting then
12:17:07  <TrueBrain> web-of-trust
12:17:13  <TrueBrain> if you force those two to be the same
12:17:19  <TrueBrain> TrueBrain is always me on such servers
12:17:32  <dihedral> true :-)
12:17:43  <TrueBrain> personally, I am more radical, and would disallow non-authenticated servers from the normal multiplayer list
12:17:50  <TrueBrain> but I am pretty sure many will dislike that :P
12:18:01  <Arafangion> It'd stop people like me from playing on them entirely.
12:18:15  <TrueBrain> a good thing I dont know you :P :D
12:18:19  <Ammler> Arafangion: servers don't need to use the service
12:18:20  <dihedral> :-D
12:18:28  <Arafangion> But if you could click on links and have them open, it might work. (as a user)
12:18:46  <Arafangion> Ammler: The data has to come from somewhere, though. Just having a website keep track fo things is annoying enough.
12:18:47  <dihedral> that wont happen either :-P
12:18:49  <TrueBrain> I started to grown to hate servers where you dont know if mister A is really mister A, of someone pretending to be mister A ..:(
12:19:12  <dihedral> that for sure is true
12:19:44  <TrueBrain> Minecraft kinda solved that nicely in my book
12:20:42  <dihedral> i have no idea how they handle that
12:20:46  <TrueBrain> but there, as pointed out earlier, if the auth server crashes, no MC :P
12:20:53  <TrueBrain> when you launch your game you authenticate
12:21:07  <TrueBrain> when you join a server you tell the MC-auth that, and the server requests that again from the MC-auth
12:21:09  <TrueBrain> in simplified terms
12:21:19  <dihedral> neat
12:21:23  <TrueBrain> your basic authentication
12:21:30  <TrueBrain> but all clients NEED to be logged in, basically
12:21:40  <TrueBrain> unless the server explicitely disables it, but meh :P
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12:21:59  <TrueBrain> so on normal MC servers, if you see TrueBrain, it is me
12:22:03  <TrueBrain> it is that easy :P
12:22:04  <Eddi|zuHause> soo...
12:22:05  <Eddi|zuHause> 2:0
12:22:11  <TrueBrain> owh, him again
12:22:17  <dihedral> i would work the other way round - if you introduce the system at this moment, i would set all servers to NOT support the system unless they explicitly set it to do so
12:22:35  <dihedral> but the idea is good :-)
12:22:52  <TrueBrain> but the more we talk about this
12:22:56  <dihedral> and servers have the ability to change the nick of a client already, in order to enforce that
12:22:57  <TrueBrain> the more I realise you also want some kind of web access
12:23:12  <dihedral> in order to change the password?
12:23:15  <TrueBrain> as you might want to login to a cluster
12:23:16  <V453000> openttd will have nickname database? or? :D
12:23:18  <TrueBrain> and see your stats
12:23:38  <dihedral> the stats ... is that then not up to the hoster of the openttd server and the admin port?
12:23:48  <TrueBrain> yes
12:23:49  <dihedral> as you do not want to store those details with openttd :-P
12:23:53  <TrueBrain> but say I want to see MY stats
12:24:04  <TrueBrain> how do I authenticate myself against YOUR website with my details?
12:24:21  <dihedral> the same way you auth with the openttd server?
12:24:22  <Ammler> TrueBrain: that can be done later, with the edit profile form :-P
12:24:32  <TrueBrain> dihedral: which is much less simple :D
12:24:42  <dihedral> but not your problem ;-)
12:24:58  <dihedral> just as writing the bot to handle the stats from the admin port
12:25:09  <dihedral> people will write a lib as soon as the protocol is available
12:25:18  <TrueBrain> but like how we started this conversation
12:25:33  <TrueBrain> I do not (!!) want to fill in my username+password on YOUR website (no offense to you of course)
12:25:40  <dihedral> still - an s/mime cert could be implemented in the browser and remove that problem :-D
12:26:26  <dihedral> hihi
12:26:34  * dihedral feels a burning stare from TrueBrain
12:26:35  <dihedral> :-D
12:26:42  <Ammler> dihedral: there are 3 or 4 libs handling the admin port but still no productive app using it
12:26:50  <TrueBrain> nah; I moved on a while ago on that idea :P
12:26:52  <dihedral> i get the hint ;-)
12:26:52  <Rhamphoryncus> MC could be done much more robustly.  When the client authenticates to the login server give it a signed token that lasts 1 week.  Tell the client to attempt reauthentication after 5 days (means they have a 2 day grace period).  Token is passed to game server when connecting, which only needs to verify that it is signed correctly and not expired.
12:27:39  <dihedral> that would also work for the website then
12:27:49  <TrueBrain> Rhamphoryncus: you are kinda missing an important part: if you login to a server, the client tells it is going to
12:27:54  <TrueBrain> preventing anyone from abusing my session
12:28:14  <Rhamphoryncus> TrueBrain: hmm?
12:28:31  <dihedral> what about working the other way round?
12:29:08  <dihedral> a config setting which allows giving the master server a url for a webservice, which allows openttd to fetch the data
12:29:17  <dihedral> simply by requesting data for the username
12:29:29  <dihedral> makes it more complicated on the side of things
12:29:38  <TrueBrain> try to rephrase that
12:29:40  <dihedral> but stops people from passing login details to other websites
12:29:41  <TrueBrain> as it is kinda cryptic :P
12:29:43  <dihedral> ok
12:30:07  <dihedral> if i host a openttd server, the master server knows ip, port, game name, type, year, etc.
12:30:21  <dihedral> add another field for a webservice
12:30:42  <dihedral> the webservice is only the for to fetch stats by sending a username and recieving further information
12:30:48  <dihedral> *there for
12:31:20  <dihedral> so the user TrueBrain logs in to a website - wants statistics, polls the server's webservice for details
12:31:35  <TrueBrain> hmm
12:31:39  <TrueBrain> no, I dont want to be that
12:31:51  <TrueBrain> it should be in the middle of a cluster of servers to help the authentication
12:31:53  <TrueBrain> but nothing else
12:32:05  <TrueBrain> as what you suggest is full of exploitable possibilities
12:32:25  <dihedral> yes, i would mean you have to trust the server hosters
12:32:30  <TrueBrain> which we dont :)
12:32:33  <dihedral> :-)
12:32:39  <Rhamphoryncus> IMO this is way over-engineered.  <TrueBrain> I once tried it with 'uniqueid' in openttd.cfg, but that was a ... huge failure :P   <--- Put it in a separate file so it doesn't get copied.
12:32:57  <dihedral> ...
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12:33:14  <dihedral> i am not sure copying is the only issue ;-)
12:33:39  <Rhamphoryncus> This isn't a pay-service.  There's nothing to restrict someone from having 10000 accounts.
12:33:55  <dihedral> donate and you get an account :-P
12:33:58  <dihedral> hihi
12:33:58  <Rhamphoryncus> Even with minecraft there's shitloads of griefing.
12:34:45  <dihedral> i am not sure if TrueBrain would make it an automated services
12:35:41  <Rhamphoryncus> So then it's a clique.
12:35:48  <dihedral> why is that?
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12:36:06  <Rhamphoryncus> If it's a manual service then random-new-person has a barrier to getting in
12:36:13  <Rhamphoryncus> So most of the userbase will not be involved
12:36:20  <dihedral> wrong?
12:36:21  <dihedral> ^^
12:38:19  <dihedral> i.e. i do not think TrueBrain and Rubidium have had a vast amount of chats with all those who are registered as translators ;-)
12:38:40  <TrueBrain> who are they?
12:38:56  <TrueBrain> I Do agree with the suggestion: pay to play
12:38:58  <TrueBrain> solves it all!
12:39:03  <TrueBrain> and I will be rich of course
12:39:03  <dihedral> :-P
12:39:14  <dihedral> pay to play on auth servers only
12:39:30  <TrueBrain> we just give it a buzz word
12:39:32  <TrueBrain> like
12:39:34  <TrueBrain> euh
12:39:35  <TrueBrain> F2P!
12:39:43  <TrueBrain> and then ingame you have to buy Maglev
12:39:47  <TrueBrain> for .. 10 EUR reasonable?
12:39:48  <dihedral> Free 2 P(l)ay
12:39:55  <dihedral> :-D
12:40:17  <dihedral> talking of huge changes ;-)
12:40:58  <TrueBrain> talking about having no players in 1 month :P
12:41:06  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i think i broke widelands...
12:41:14  <TrueBrain> would finally solve having the same amount of servers as clients
12:41:30  <Eddi|zuHause> every few seconds it uses 100% CPU, and when i save it, it says "bad_alloc"
12:42:25  <dihedral> TrueBrain, that time period has been gone for a while now
12:42:30  <dihedral> we have way more servers :-D
12:42:41  <TrueBrain> ^^
12:43:25  * Rhamphoryncus golf claps Eddi
12:43:52  <Eddi|zuHause> _somebody_ has to stop this on-topic discussion!
12:44:43  <TrueBrain> I am pondering a bit .. hmm .. hear me out for a sec, say what you think:
12:44:48  <TrueBrain> when you login as user to
12:44:54  <TrueBrain> you can grant access to 'clusters'
12:45:04  <TrueBrain> I dont have a fancy name yet, I am sure we can think of one
12:45:08  <TrueBrain> once given that authorization
12:45:22  <TrueBrain> that cluster can track you on its own cluster
12:45:35  <dihedral> who stores the data?
12:45:41  <TrueBrain> the cluster, still
12:45:46  <TrueBrain> that wont change in any of my bla :)
12:45:52  <dihedral> how do you define a 'cluster'
12:45:57  <TrueBrain> a collection of servers
12:46:02  <TrueBrain> one that share a token, basically
12:46:11  <TrueBrain> you as server host request a token at
12:46:14  <dihedral> ah - so servers get a token ;-)
12:46:15  <TrueBrain> that is your cluster token
12:46:24  <dihedral> ok
12:46:58  <dihedral> how else should the cluster track a user apart from on its own cluster?
12:46:58  <dihedral> ^^
12:47:38  <dihedral> and what (other than terms of service) would stop me from sharing my login details?
12:48:22  <TrueBrain> I dont care if you share your login information
12:48:24  <TrueBrain> lolz
12:48:26  <TrueBrain> why would I
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12:48:33  <appe> \o/
12:48:43  <dihedral> as user a on one server should remain server a
12:48:47  <dihedral> ... user a
12:49:00  <TrueBrain> that is why the ToS does not allow it; what else can we do
12:49:02  <dihedral> throughout all servers supporting the system
12:49:03  <TrueBrain> I am not a police officer :)
12:49:21  <dihedral> tell the cluster on how many other clusters the user is actively playing ^^
12:49:25  <dihedral> *g*
12:49:27  * dihedral hides
12:49:33  <TrueBrain> keep trying :)
12:49:49  <dihedral> then the cluster may decide wheather or not to accept the connection :-P
12:49:51  <TrueBrain> is not in the business of supplying information about users :)
12:50:08  <dihedral> as if the user is active on one other cluster already, i do not trust it's the same user :-P
12:50:08  <TrueBrain> I dont want to be disallowed on cluster A because I am also on cluster B
12:50:10  <TrueBrain> it is silly, and wrong
12:50:19  <TrueBrain> silly assumption
12:50:25  <dihedral> but that could be up to the cluster admin ^^
12:50:39  * appe kinda forgot about this channel
12:50:52  <dihedral> or - a bot connected to the admin port can address another central place that keeps track of that data
12:51:08  <dihedral> bad appe!! go to your basked!
12:51:11  <dihedral> *basket
12:51:58  <TrueBrain> hmm .. another solution would be:
12:52:11  <TrueBrain> you (as client) login to, say you want an auth token, and you receive a token
12:52:22  <TrueBrain> instead of your password, you use that token on auth servers
12:52:26  <TrueBrain> no username+password, just that token
12:52:38  <TrueBrain> I wonder if that is easier for clients or not
12:52:48  <dihedral> and set the token as unique id, and the token is valid for 24h
12:52:58  <TrueBrain> I was thinking about a bit longer period of time :P
12:53:02  <TrueBrain> else it will be frustrating
12:53:09  <TrueBrain> although we can of course also fetch the token ingame
12:53:11  <dihedral> and eaiserly copied
12:53:15  <TrueBrain> but that is exactly what I Wanted to aviod ...
12:53:33  <TrueBrain> the reason why I bring this up, as I am wondering:
12:53:39  <TrueBrain> loging in every time you start OpentTD
12:53:42  <TrueBrain> would be rather .. annoying
12:53:48  <TrueBrain> but I also dont want to store the password locally
12:53:51  <TrueBrain> as well .. that is bad
12:54:00  <dihedral> like i said, a console command for the login and use autostart_client.scr
12:54:14  <TrueBrain> and how does that help?
12:54:15  <TrueBrain> lolz
12:54:25  <TrueBrain> it doesnt really solve the issue :P
12:54:36  <dihedral> that when openttd starts the command is executed and does the login for me
12:54:44  <TrueBrain> [13:06] <TrueBrain> but I also dont want to store the password locally
12:54:45  <TrueBrain> [13:06] <TrueBrain> as well .. that is bad
12:54:48  <appe> dihedral: your mother.
12:54:53  <appe> dihedral: a delightful person!
12:54:57  <dihedral> oh i missed that
12:55:15  <TrueBrain> it is why it is an issue. your issue can be solved so much more elegant without that sillyness :D
12:55:26  <dihedral> :-P
12:55:32  * appe re-welcomes himself to the channel by putting blunt stuff into planetmaker
12:56:01  <dihedral> someone in need of attention? :-P
12:56:40  <dihedral> why does the client have to tell the server it is authenticated
12:56:52  <dihedral> why can the master server not tell the openttd server?
12:56:55  <appe> :p
12:57:14  <dihedral> a simple push
12:57:15  <TrueBrain> euh
12:57:23  <TrueBrain> the client will never tell the server it is authenticated
12:57:27  <TrueBrain> we talk about open source here
12:57:30  <TrueBrain> no fucking way that would work
12:57:41  <TrueBrain> but the MS needs to know if a client is authenticated, does it not? :D
12:59:05  <dihedral> login to the website, get token, start openttd, enter token, once token is set MS is informed of the server the client tries to join and pushes an ack to the server
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12:59:21  <TrueBrain> yeah, but I think that is too hard on clients
12:59:36  <TrueBrain> exploring options .... how to make this as easy as possible :D
12:59:45  <dihedral> implement the 'login' process into openttd with a username and password promt
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13:00:08  <dihedral> instead of username + password, use an s/mime cert :-D
13:00:13  * dihedral chuckles
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13:00:26  <TrueBrain> [13:05] <TrueBrain> the reason why I bring this up, as I am wondering:
13:00:27  <TrueBrain> [13:05] <TrueBrain> loging in every time you start OpentTD
13:00:29  <TrueBrain> [13:05] <TrueBrain> would be rather .. annoying
13:00:30  <TrueBrain> damn, you are slow today
13:00:59  <dihedral> so you can think of further options, other than openttd website login and ingame login?
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13:01:24  <TrueBrain> well, store such gained token on the client for a period of time
13:01:32  <dihedral> they already have to enter the password of a server or of their company or even both, so further login details would not hurt
13:01:48  <TrueBrain> there you have a point
13:01:55  <TrueBrain> and my end-goal is to avoid all those passwords
13:01:58  <dihedral> if you make it ingame - the token counts as long as the session
13:02:03  <TrueBrain> and replace it with: you are authenticated, so you have access to A B C and D
13:02:23  <dihedral> your nick is the username, you are promted for one password
13:02:32  <TrueBrain> yeah, I guess that works
13:02:37  <dihedral> it is up to the server to move you into your company
13:02:46  <TrueBrain> you can either click Login, or join an auth server
13:02:56  <TrueBrain> both popup the password dialog
13:03:04  <dihedral> aye
13:03:06  <TrueBrain> and only once for the runtime of your client
13:03:13  <TrueBrain> and maybe an invalidation every 24h or something
13:03:37  *** KouDy1 [~KouDy@] has quit []
13:03:38  <dihedral> invalidate once the game is closed
13:03:53  <TrueBrain> then the server, by the means of a packet to admin port, receives information about the connecting user in terms of: username, validated
13:03:54  <dihedral> that already is good, else you have to enter the password on each connect
13:04:04  *** KouDy [~KouDy@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:04:08  <dihedral> that will not work
13:04:12  <dihedral> by means of the admin port?
13:04:34  <dihedral> the admin port is limited to 16 connections and is password protected
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13:04:48  <TrueBrain> euh?
13:05:04  <TrueBrain> I think you dont talk the same language :D
13:05:04  <Xaroth> o_O
13:05:11  <TrueBrain> what I mean is: when a client connects
13:05:14  <TrueBrain> it goes through the auth
13:05:23  <TrueBrain> then the adminport in the end receives a packet with the information about the auth
13:05:36  <TrueBrain> as it is the only part of OpentTD that cares basically
13:07:50  <Rhamphoryncus> Doh.  Too much slack and my timetabling system "fails".  It only skips a departure window if you were late enough to hit the next window, but it's also possible to have all your vehicles waiting at one stop while arriving late at all the others just quick enough to not trigger the skipping behaviour.
13:07:58  <dihedral> i still do not get why it must be to the admin port... i must be missing something
13:08:15  <TrueBrain> dihedral: yes, you are
13:08:19  <TrueBrain> as the word "must" is misplaced
13:08:30  <TrueBrain> what is the part of OpenTTD that cares about authentication yes/no?
13:08:35  <TrueBrain> what is the part that makes decisions on it?
13:08:40  <TrueBrain> the C++ part? Hell no
13:08:42  <TrueBrain> NoGo?
13:08:44  <TrueBrain> hell no
13:08:45  <TrueBrain> NoAI?
13:08:47  <TrueBrain> hell no
13:08:51  <TrueBrain> it is, indeed, the admin port :P
13:08:54  <dihedral> ...
13:09:04  <TrueBrain> does it click now? :D
13:09:14  <dihedral> if you accept or deny a client based on it's authentication of course it's not just the admin port
13:09:32  <dihedral> if it is the admin port, the client connected already
13:09:37  <dihedral> and has the map
13:10:21  <TrueBrain> anyway ...
13:11:12  <dihedral> any communication from the MS should be next to all other communication with the MS
13:11:14  <TrueBrain> for the webpart we can use other techniques .. like OAuth I guess
13:11:21  <TrueBrain> dihedral: ffs, read what I wrote :P
13:11:25  <TrueBrain> you really still dont get it :)
13:11:45  <dihedral> nope - then express yourself more clearly ;-)
13:11:53  <TrueBrain> [13:16] <TrueBrain> then the server, by the means of a packet to admin port, receives information about the connecting user in terms of: username, validated
13:12:03  <TrueBrain> the server receives information about the connecting user
13:12:13  <TrueBrain> how does it process it? Well, it sends a packet
13:12:18  <TrueBrain> you know, information
13:12:20  <TrueBrain> to the admin port
13:12:23  <TrueBrain> does it click now?
13:12:47  <dihedral> do we have a translator in this channel?
13:12:58  <TrueBrain> you do realise I have @kick access, right? :)
13:13:18  <dihedral> needing a kick command just because someone does not get what you are trying to say is sad ;-)
13:13:36  <TrueBrain> nah; I need the kick command because someone is pulling my leg by acting like he doesnt understand :P
13:15:20  <Xaroth> even i understand it
13:15:35  <dihedral> pffft
13:15:38  <dihedral> ^^
13:15:50  <TrueBrain> that means absolutely nothing Xaroth, as you are most likely wrong :D
13:15:58  <dihedral> i offer time to code the network related parts ;-)
13:16:03  <Xaroth> correct
13:17:05  <TrueBrain> anyway, now we established how it should work, from client and admin side
13:17:36  <MNIM> Hmmmmh.
13:17:36  <TrueBrain> code-wise it is very easy: make the login button, send packet to MSU in form of: gettoken(username, md5(salted-password))
13:17:39  <TrueBrain> receive a token back
13:17:50  <TrueBrain> when you join server which has auth, send token to MSU + server token
13:17:59  <TrueBrain> server queries MSU with username + server token
13:18:03  <MNIM> I'm not sure if this has been mentioned once already, but it would be nice to be able to use multiple town name GRFs at once.
13:18:04  <TrueBrain> that part is all easy
13:18:08  <TrueBrain> changing the MSU, that is a bitch ..
13:18:39  <dihedral> oh
13:19:01  <dihedral> is the MSU still in C?
13:19:19  <TrueBrain> C++, yes
13:19:28  <dihedral> would it make sense to port it to python?
13:19:37  <TrueBrain> none
13:19:40  <dihedral> k
13:19:53  <TrueBrain> its queried so many times
13:20:03  <dihedral> hehe - i bet :-P
13:20:17  <TrueBrain> then again, we once already made a draft of a new MSU, to reduce the load on all sides
13:20:28  <TrueBrain> but nobody replied on the topic Rb created about it, so he cosnidered nobody was interested :D
13:20:41  <TrueBrain> people should motivate the developers more by cheerful comments!!
13:20:52  <TrueBrain> not the endless bitching: WHY DOESN OPENTTD USE MULTICORES
13:21:00  <dihedral> i did not read that thread - i did not even see it
13:22:18  <TrueBrain> basically, it makes the MSU more useful, by allowing to send queries to it, and receive more server information than the IP:port
13:22:26  <TrueBrain> reducing the endless UDPs you send out when you hit: Find Server, atm :P
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13:23:59  <dihedral> would increase traffic a bit ;-)
13:24:10  <TrueBrain> only on our side
13:24:17  <TrueBrain> but it does allow us to grow bigger
13:24:33  <TrueBrain> already some clients cant query all servers
13:24:37  <TrueBrain> because they have a tarded router :P
13:24:54  <dihedral> wow
13:32:03  <Rhamphoryncus> TrueBrain: openttd does too use multicores!  That's where all the "thread spawned; thread exited" spam in gdb is from ;)
13:32:15  <Rhamphoryncus> (autosaving uses a background thread.)
13:32:22  <dihedral> ...
13:32:39  <TrueBrain> thank you dihedral for saying what I am thinking
13:32:51  <dihedral> hehe
13:32:53  <Rhamphoryncus> what?
13:33:07  <Xaroth> but you could make a SOAP api for the MSU if it was in python :o
13:33:07  <dihedral> the core of the game is not threaded
13:33:37  <TrueBrain> it is also funny that he is explaining me where threading is used :P
13:33:42  <dihedral> Xaroth, by the sound of it, python is not gonna be fast enough
13:33:42  <TrueBrain> well, he forgets a few
13:33:44  <TrueBrain> like genworld
13:34:03  <Xaroth> dihedral: obvious troll was not obvious enough?
13:34:05  <Rhamphoryncus> I know.  It was a stupid pedantic response to an irrelevant offhand comment you made.  That's why it's funny.
13:34:15  <dihedral> Xaroth, oh :-P
13:34:23  <Xaroth> I should have mentioned XML or something
13:34:26  <Xaroth> to make it more obvious
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13:34:34  <dihedral> port it to .not
13:34:39  <TrueBrain> dihedral: @kick?
13:34:42  <TrueBrain> :P
13:34:49  <dihedral> me? or one of the others :-P
13:34:55  <TrueBrain> YOU!
13:35:03  <TrueBrain> like swearing in the church
13:35:06  <TrueBrain> come on!
13:35:08  <dihedral> nah - i am just quoting the 'movie' java4ever
13:35:24  <dihedral> from the makers of javatar
13:35:35  <TrueBrain> .... lolz
13:35:37  <TrueBrain> go to work
13:35:52  <dihedral> ^^
13:36:05  <dihedral> with lenny linux and monalisa harddrive ^^
13:38:15  <dihedral> just in case someone might not have seen it yet... :
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13:44:03  <dihedral> Rubidium, by the way - any thoughts regarding fs4990? or no time so yet
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14:49:17  <Chris_Booth> hi
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15:06:37  <dihedral> hale the whale
15:09:37  <__ln__>
15:09:57  <Belugas> He sir dral :)
15:16:29  <Rhamphoryncus> __ln__: wow, that's pretty horrible
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15:31:52  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds very wrong...
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15:32:23  <krinn> hi
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15:33:17  <krinn> i have a problem with my ai that let the VM crash, and openttd then segfault too, any hint/tips to help @ debug that, the crash log is not really of help
15:34:02  <TrueBrain> which OS, which OpenTTD version?
15:34:27  <krinn> tried 1.1.3 and 1.1.4
15:34:29  <krinn> gentoo
15:34:38  <TrueBrain> can you try with 1.1.5?
15:34:45  <Eddi|zuHause> also, logs, savegame, AI, way to reproduce
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15:35:32  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, i have 0 doubt it's my AI, the only problem is that openttd crash because of the VM collapse, i'll try 1.1.5
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15:36:00  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: an ai crash may never cause an openttd crash, as thus that is a bug in openttd
15:36:19  <krinn> that's what i mean
15:36:51  <krinn> the AI doesn't really crash, but the i think the AI (uninitialized variiable or something) let the VM crash and openttd collapse then
15:37:20  <TrueBrain> I wonder how a collapse looks like :D
15:37:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i just listed the required information for a dev to be able to look at it
15:37:32  <TrueBrain> anyway, do you have the crash.log?
15:37:37  <krinn> i use the console, and last thing i see in it are simple message from the AI, the AI doesn't stopped by itself
15:37:43  <krinn> yes i have a crash.log
15:37:59  <krinn> and i can produce as many as i wish
15:38:40  <TrueBrain> well, I am not really interested if you have one; I am more interested what is in it
15:39:01  <krinn> :)
15:39:14  <Eddi|zuHause> "can you tell me the time please?" "yes."
15:39:15  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
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15:39:33  <TrueBrain> yeah .. polite ways of asking are often shut down with a flamethrower :P
15:39:41  <krinn> let me check if i can send it to you there (but i think this comp is behind my firewall)
15:39:44  <TrueBrain> I often wonder why we try to be polite; we should be rude and just ask what we want to know :D
15:39:52  <TrueBrain> krinn: just put it on a pastebin
15:40:00  <TrueBrain> or otherwise you can do this:
15:40:06  <TrueBrain> 1) update to 1.1.5, see if the problems happens
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15:40:18  <TrueBrain> 2) go to , and make a bug report about it
15:40:30  <krinn>
15:40:31  <TrueBrain> attach your AI, a savegame and CLEAR INSTRUCTION to reproduce
15:41:03  <krinn> that's the problem, clear instruction to reproduce is just letting it run with it and wait
15:41:48  <TrueBrain> 0xffffe400 <- awesome location to call
15:41:54  <TrueBrain> how is that a problem?
15:41:58  <TrueBrain> that sounds like a very good method
15:42:10  <TrueBrain> so yeah, please do make a bug report, as this needs a debugger attached to diagnose
15:42:31  <TrueBrain> one of the more rare cases Windows is better: upon crashes :D
15:42:40  <dihedral> at least he knows pastebin ;-)
15:42:43  <TrueBrain> when we can reproduce it, we can fix it :)
15:43:10  <Eddi|zuHause> you sound awfully confident :p
15:43:14  <TrueBrain> it crashes in a valuator .. meh :)
15:43:18  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I am
15:43:28  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: emperical evidence :)
15:43:57  <krinn> ah nice tips for the valuator crash
15:44:19  <TrueBrain> but please do make a bug report, as we should fix this in OpenTTD :)
15:44:33  <TrueBrain> (assuming the 1.2 tree hasnt already, but lets assume for a sec it hasnt :))
15:44:43  <krinn> will do
15:44:48  <TrueBrain> tnx
15:45:44  <TrueBrain> a crashing OpenTTD is an unhappy OpenTTD :D
15:46:25  <krinn> and i'm not really happy my AI does that
15:46:47  <TrueBrain> AI-wise: it seems you do a Valuate on an AIList, and this is breaking somehow .. if I have to guess, I think you call a Squirrel-valuator
15:46:54  <TrueBrain> so that might give you some insight where your problem is in the AI
15:47:12  <TrueBrain> I have no way of telling you atm if your code is valid and there is just a bug, or that you do something that is invalid, and we should just kill off your script :)
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15:48:15  <krinn> yep, but i have very few valuators like that
15:48:55  <krinn> hence the nice tips to point this, i might find what is doing that and a fix to avoid it
15:49:18  <TrueBrain> if you find it, make sure to attach that to the bug report; might make our life easier :D
15:50:16  <krinn> sure, it would be easier to find if the VM stop the AI and produce an error instead of the crash :)
15:50:34  <TrueBrain> the ultimate goal ;)
15:51:03  <TrueBrain> lucky enough for us it is relative rare for the AI to crash OpenTTD, unlucky for you as you found an exception :D
15:52:25  <TrueBrain> bbl
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15:52:28  <krinn>
15:52:41  <krinn> ask for more files, details or anything need
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15:52:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: procedural sprite generator :)
15:52:56  <andythenorth> interested?
15:53:13  <andythenorth>
15:53:19  <andythenorth>
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15:57:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: -- view is easy, the other views are interesting, with overlapping and stuff :)
15:58:06  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: limited use cases
15:58:09  <andythenorth> trailers only at this stage
15:58:32  <andythenorth> although I think masks can be used to comp details
15:59:00  <andythenorth> pretty certain you could do this for passenger carriages and freight cars
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15:59:07  <andythenorth> not locomotives, no gain
15:59:24  <andythenorth> could also be used to generate primitives, which are then detailed by hand
15:59:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, it would be interesting to have better "generic" placeholder graphics instead of our green boxes
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16:00:50  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you finished 'holiday' yet?
16:01:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: like you feed it an axle scheme and a colour and it generates a steam/diesel/electric engine
16:01:49  <andythenorth> you feed it 'scaffolds' with magic colours imho
16:02:04  <andythenorth> as those are easier to place accurately, rather than feeding it a big 2 dimensional array
16:02:30  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, we already have the green template boxes
16:02:33  <andythenorth> each magic colour maps to a sequence of tuples with (x,y, colour)
16:02:44  <andythenorth> x and y are offsets from current pixel
16:03:04  <andythenorth> drawing will be in scan order from top left
16:03:19  <andythenorth> so there are possible edge cases for overlapping being problematic
16:04:14  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: let me know if you want to play with it - the code is trivial :)
16:04:20  * andythenorth -> back to work
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16:53:52  <Belugas> i guess i'm getting old.  The company decided to change our screens from 20" to 24".  I refused, did not like the change
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16:54:09  <Belugas> Finally, i reluctantly accepted.
16:54:42  <Belugas> Now, I have two freaking large screens taking an immense space on my desk.
16:54:47  <Belugas> Does it feel better?
16:54:48  <Belugas> no
16:54:52  <Belugas> tuse...
16:54:54  <Belugas> thus..
16:54:57  <Belugas> i'm getting old
16:59:28  <theholyduck> Belugas, well are they 24" higher res?
16:59:33  <theholyduck> and if so, significantly?
16:59:52  <theholyduck> Belugas, i' dont like using widescreens at all
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16:59:57  <theholyduck> i run 3 19" 5:4's
17:00:32  <Belugas> yup they are.  from 1024xsomething to 1920x1080
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17:00:51  <Belugas> for debugging, it's quite a charm, i have to admit
17:01:01  <theholyduck> Belugas, i would personally have switched to small monitors with high res
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17:01:18  <theholyduck> i mean, my next monitor upgrade is probably the 21.5" ultrasharps
17:01:20  <Belugas> pity for my eyes!
17:01:33  <theholyduck> 1920x1080, 21.5"
17:06:55  <Belugas> my glasses would not appreciate... too small for comfort, I have to admit
17:07:44  <Belugas> coffee time. too soon for lunch, even if my stomac says otherwise :(
17:10:36  <Eddi|zuHause> modern screens somewhat violate moore's law...
17:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> resolutions practically stopped going up some 10 years ago
17:22:06  <Belugas> like CPUs speed, i'd say :)
17:23:43  <SpComb> everyone got stuck at 1080p video resolutions
17:23:50  <Eddi|zuHause> well, they increase the number of cores instead
17:28:30  <Belugas> does it run faster?  it helps, but it's not significant enough, i'd say
17:29:12  <Belugas> note that transformer prime, with 4 cores, is incredibly faster than the other tablets with only two
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18:23:47  <supermop> has anyone been watching ths guy who made the patch for coupling?
18:24:31  <Eddi|zuHause> well, "moore's law" actually says "the number of transistors in a chip doubles every 1.5 years" [or similar]
18:24:49  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: he did not actually post a patch, or?
18:25:01  <supermop> nope just videos
18:25:18  <supermop> not sure what's going on there
18:26:04  <Eddi|zuHause> <cynical>and even if he did, it would probably fail all sanity checks on code quality</cynical>
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18:28:22  <supermop> still looks like fun though
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18:29:16  <__ln__> url?
18:33:24  <supermop>
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18:35:51  <__ln__> pretty cool
18:37:07  <supermop> would be fun to have locomotives run around the train at end of line too
18:40:04  <__ln__> yeah, the teleporting locomotive looks bad in that context
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18:43:10  <appe> dafuq is dat
18:43:57  <appe> i didnt know that was possible in ott
18:43:59  <appe> +d
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18:44:40  <__ln__> it isn't
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19:16:05  <Terkhen> hello
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19:33:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23955 /trunk/src/lang/ (arabic_egypt.txt french.txt lithuanian.txt):
19:33:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:33:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 37 changes by kasakg
19:33:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 14 changes by OliTTD, glx
19:33:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 34 changes by Stabilitronas
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19:36:13  <Wolf01> evenink
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19:37:20  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
19:38:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23956 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): -Fix (r23949): Fix wrong position argument in translated timetable strings.
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19:42:47  <Alberth> oddink
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19:53:28  <andythenorth> efening
19:53:41  <Alberth> hi ih
19:57:57  * andythenorth procedurally generates a greeting
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19:59:01  * andythenorth is having some design headaches with pixel genrator
19:59:14  <andythenorth> the code isn't hard, the human interface needs a bit of thought
20:00:04  <andythenorth> as nobody has a fricking clue what I'm doing yet, I probably have to figure it out for myself :o :P
20:02:20  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
20:04:07  <appe>
20:05:59  <Elukka>
20:06:09  <Alberth> you can also explain what you've done, and ask for advice :)
20:06:29  <Alberth>
20:07:02  <Elukka> that link doesn't fit in, it makes sense :P
20:07:22  <Alberth>   then  :)
20:08:55  <Elukka> andythenorth: what's pixel generator?
20:09:01  <Elukka> does it make pixels so i don't have to
20:09:43  <Alberth> it mostly colours pixels, I think
20:15:05  <Alberth> andythenorth: working on mnml?  (meta newgrf meta language)
20:15:52  <andythenorth> mnmlt
20:15:55  <andythenorth> meta nml toolset
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20:38:15  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause:
20:38:20  <andythenorth> that's about 10 mins work
20:38:27  <andythenorth> wouldn't take a lot more to make it basically sound
20:41:15  <Eddi|zuHause> might just be me, but the proportions look off...
20:41:37  <andythenorth> probably are
20:42:02  <andythenorth> they rely entirely on the scaffold that's drawn with magic colour
20:42:36  <andythenorth> this is halfway between drawing and pure procedures
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21:00:45  <andythenorth> hmm
21:00:50  <andythenorth> so many possibilities
21:02:54  <Eddi|zuHause> oh what have i done... i taught andythenorth the value of generators :p
21:05:02  <Terkhen> you did not think about the consequences? :)
21:06:20  <Alberth> wait until he finds out about generators that generate generators :D
21:12:05  *** Firartix [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:12:47  * andythenorth is not new to generators
21:13:09  <andythenorth> like most people who tinker with web apps andythenorth has written an 'auto-magical form generator'
21:13:16  <andythenorth> followed by learning why they mostly fail :P
21:13:58  * andythenorth has also written lots of game code that generates levels, baddies, power ups etc :)
21:14:25  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: does CETS include NG?
21:14:26  <andythenorth>
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21:21:53  <Elukka> that is a weird locomotive
21:22:00  <Elukka> i believe it technically does but nothing is drawn
21:22:36  <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: i still have naggling concerns about the CETS palette being too muted in comparison to the rest of the game
21:23:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, but railtype support is incomplete
21:23:25  <andythenorth> that one looks more like HEQS trams anyway if I judge size correctly
21:25:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i believe the saxon IV K is already added to the core set
21:25:29  <andythenorth> awesome
21:25:33  * andythenorth likes NG
21:27:34  <Eddi|zuHause>
21:30:15  <Eddi|zuHause> <- probably slightly closer to the above picture
21:31:17  <Elukka> heh, i didn't realize ng stuff was drawn already
21:31:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23957 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix [FS#4990]: allow sending chat to pre-active clients as the clients start accepting once they send 'map ok' to the server, which is the same moment we change their status to pre-active
21:31:51  <Eddi|zuHause> that's purely oberhÃŒmer's fault :p
21:32:15  <Eddi|zuHause> he did it "just because"...
21:32:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23958 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix: don't allow chat messages from pre-active clients. As they haven't got the savegame yet, they won't have the interface to send them either (dihedral)
21:33:33  <Elukka> hey, eddi, if i have some minor changes to a sprite can i just throw it into the repository somehow
21:34:11  <Rubidium> Elukka: just start drawing 32bpp EZ sprites. Thenk you have way more colours to play with (and pixels)
21:35:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: you can post them to the tracker
21:35:22  <Elukka> i'd do 32bpp but EZ would wait until there's at least a good amount of normal zoom level sprites done
21:35:29  <andythenorth> 32bpp sprite generator :P
21:35:33  * andythenorth ponders
21:36:02  <andythenorth> I could encode the pixel sequences in dict: (tuples)
21:36:16  <andythenorth> or I could draw them in another png and then have the generator read them
21:36:24  <Eddi|zuHause> §somebody wanted to provide a script for automatic 32bpp->8bpp conversion
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21:36:44  <andythenorth> I'm not sure how I'd handle non-vertical sequences if they were drawn in a png
21:36:58  <andythenorth> I'd need some kind of control colour to say 'sequence starts here'
21:38:48  <andythenorth> or I could just code them in...code
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21:39:55  <andythenorth> dunno about lighting either
21:40:01  <andythenorth> could just manually encode lighting differences
21:40:22  <andythenorth> or I could detect which angle is being drawn (using x position), then transform all pixels
21:42:30  * andythenorth is favouring manually encoding everything
21:42:36  <andythenorth> magic is untrustworthy
21:42:49  <andythenorth> procedural pixel generator is magic enough
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21:56:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23959 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/ -Change: make regression less faily when spurious warnings are shown
21:59:53  <__ln__>
22:00:30  <andythenorth> __ln__: I think I'm in that video
22:00:34  <andythenorth> not the guy on the bike though
22:00:41  <__ln__> but in the bus?
22:00:52  <__ln__> driving it.. nah
22:00:55  <andythenorth> nah
22:00:57  <andythenorth> not so much
22:01:35  <andythenorth> 8.30 is a bit early for me
22:01:55  <andythenorth> but there is a cyclist crosses the frame near the end, identical bike, bag, coat to mine
22:02:07  <andythenorth> and that use to be one of my routes to work
22:02:29  <andythenorth> I have arguments with people at the same roundabout as the cyclist in that story
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22:04:45  <__ln__> andythenorth: surveillance recorders' clocks are often off by who knows how many dozens of minutes
22:04:55  <andythenorth> it would need to be about 1hr off
22:05:02  <andythenorth> or on the wrong summer time setting
22:06:00  <__ln__> 1hr wouldn't surprise me at all.
22:07:23  * andythenorth generates a palette
22:07:25  <supermop> you are from bristol?
22:07:29  <andythenorth> not from
22:07:34  <supermop> in?
22:07:38  <andythenorth> yup
22:07:44  <andythenorth> spiritual home of TTD
22:07:53  <supermop> always pictured you as a northerner
22:08:02  <andythenorth> somewhat true
22:08:03  <supermop> thought tt was from up north
22:08:16  <andythenorth> chris sawyer and simon foster are from up north
22:08:26  <andythenorth> microprose was based in frampton cotterel
22:08:34  <andythenorth> the guy who fixed my windows used to work there
22:10:00  <supermop> hm nice
22:10:12  <Eddi|zuHause> a propos north... what's this talk about scottish independence?
22:10:20  <supermop> silly
22:10:22  <andythenorth> chipping sodbury / frampton cotterel /s
22:10:27  * andythenorth can't comment on that
22:10:36  <andythenorth> working on it professionally
22:10:49  <supermop> i can say that i think it is silly
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22:11:04  * andythenorth hmms at PIL
22:11:08  <supermop> that from someone with much more scottish blood than english
22:11:28  <supermop> but i dont live there so not my issue to take issue with
22:12:10  <andythenorth> omg
22:12:15  * andythenorth has generated a palette
22:12:20  <andythenorth> with numbers and all
22:13:44  <supermop> seeing the word 'micropose' makes the TTO song play in my head
22:13:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and if scotland declares independence, what happens to northern ireland?
22:14:01  <supermop> its not part of scottland
22:14:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i do know that
22:14:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but there's something called a ripple or domino effect :p
22:14:41  <supermop> i have a feeling northern irish want to stay in the union more than the other nations would like to see them stay
22:15:31  <Eddi|zuHause> how did that happen anyway? what made them split up ireland that way, historically speaking?
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22:17:46  <supermop> the people in the north wanted to stay, those in the south wanted to go
22:17:58  <supermop> north is more protestant than the south is
22:18:27  <supermop> obviously its not quite so black and white, but thats the simple explanation
22:22:07  <andythenorth> quak
22:23:16  <supermop> hm?
22:23:30  <frosch123> moin
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22:34:54  * andythenorth joins ranks of 'people who have generated palette keys'
22:35:46  <supermop> now you just need a way for python to automate the creation of clever truck names
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22:36:40  <andythenorth> stupid wifi
22:36:50  <andythenorth> script needs a paletted input file:
22:37:00  <frosch123> andythenorth: that's the wrong palette
22:37:19  <frosch123> also use ttdviewer for such things
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22:41:37  * andythenorth experiments with ttd viewer
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22:43:33  <andythenorth> frosch123: how do I get TTDViewer to tell me the palette index for each colour?
22:44:11  <frosch123> isn't there some tooltip?
22:44:19  * andythenorth checks
22:44:25  <andythenorth> yes
22:45:35  <frosch123> really? i cannot make it work
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22:48:14  <andythenorth> frosch123: works in nightly, older version doesn't do it
22:48:17  <andythenorth> both are '1.0'
22:48:20  <frosch123> wow, how did i manage to not have an up-to-date version of ttdviwer :o
22:48:43  <frosch123> i did not even had the save button
22:49:23  <andythenorth> TTDViewer palette disagrees with the palette in my image
22:49:35  <andythenorth> the indexes are completely different
22:49:50  <frosch123> you are using the deprecated win palette
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22:49:56  <frosch123> everything else uses the dos palette
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22:50:29  <frosch123> also not that ttdviewer hides various colours by default
22:50:37  <frosch123> so, make sure to uncheck the stuff in the menu
22:51:40  <andythenorth> I thought I'd switched to the DOS palette from the ottd repo :o
22:51:51  <andythenorth> I had to switch because nml refuses to compile the windows palette I had previously
22:52:01  <andythenorth> perhaps I switched incorrectly :P
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22:58:41  <andythenorth> frosch123: better? :P
22:58:51  <andythenorth> wrong palette setting saved in photoshop
22:58:59  * andythenorth probably has lots of wrong images out in the wild :(
22:59:15  <frosch123> better :)
22:59:43  <andythenorth> TTDViewer is shiny, but I need a palette with numbers on
22:59:51  <andythenorth> I will be writing them into python a lot :P
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23:00:33  <andythenorth> frosch123: did you see my insane project? :D
23:01:37  <frosch123> i did not see yet any image
23:07:46  * andythenorth -> bed
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23:10:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23960 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix/Change: [NewGRF] Make the properties for always/never refittable cargo types not behave incremental, but reset them on reassignment.
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23:12:28  <frosch123> night
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23:17:46  <Sacro> well, don't ever /exec yes
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23:21:30  <__ln__> Is this cover photo of University Physics actually a mirror image?
23:22:56  <Eddi|zuHause> this cover photo of University Physics actually does not load
23:25:19  <__ln__> it does
23:25:33  <Terkhen> it loads fine for me
23:26:14  <Eddi|zuHause> it does now
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23:31:02  <Stimrol> hello, Is there a way to enable kN (Tractive Effort) on 1.1.5 server?
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23:33:18  <Terkhen> hi Stimrol
23:33:32  <Stimrol> hi
23:33:42  <Terkhen> enable advanced settings -> vehicles -> realistic acceleration for the vehicle type you are intested in
23:34:00  <Terkhen> if you mean the console command required for doing that, I don't know :)
23:34:49  <Stimrol> no i can do that, thanks
23:37:23  <Stimrol> This worked, thanks a lot
23:37:36  <Terkhen> you are welcome
23:38:40  <appe>
23:38:42  <appe> <3
23:42:50  <Terkhen> <--- I visited this one when I was a kid... not as spectacular, but quite impressive nonetheless
23:46:34  <Terkhen> good night
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