Log for #openttd on 17th February 2012:
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00:21:57  <Wolf01> 'night
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02:36:03  <Nat_as> Hmm, here's a question
02:36:18  <Nat_as> is there any way to limit the maximum framerate when in fast forward mode.
02:36:35  <Nat_as> because on a fast computer that feature can be a problem, it goes too fast.
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02:37:19  <Nat_as> it used to be you could sort of adjust it by turning full animation and full detail on and off, but now it does not seem to have an effect on framerate
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02:37:55  <Nat_as> on my netbook fast forward is handy, but on my big gaming rig time progresses too fast.
02:42:18  <glx> fast forward uses as much cpu as it can (it removes all limits)
02:48:32  <Nat_as> yeah, i understand that, but if there was a way to make the game go faster without going into maximum overdrive that would be cool
02:48:37  <Nat_as> esp on modern computers
02:55:50  <Elukka> it's not a problem for most people know as far as i can tell, but it is one that is sure to become one in the future
02:56:02  <Elukka> would be nice to have a dropdown menu on it maybe
02:56:15  <Elukka> with a couple different speeds and also a max speed option
02:56:21  <Elukka> (no, i am not going to code this)
03:05:34  <Nat_as> lol
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03:05:47  <Nat_as> it's something that will become more and more of a problem as mores law progresses
03:05:51  <Nat_as> more's
03:06:13  <Nat_as> right now it's only a problem for people who like to play retro games on nice computers
03:06:28  <Nat_as> on the other hand I laugh at people who have FPS issues in Dwarf fortress
03:06:31  <Nat_as> :P
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09:00:29  <dihedral> good morning
09:00:39  <dihedral> Rubidium, thanks :-)
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09:58:58  <appe> morning
10:09:22  <peter1138> anyone au fait with c#, threads and locking?
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11:18:12  <planetmaker> ha, finally, the BundesprÀsident resigned.
11:18:25  <Eddi|zuHause> took him long enough...
11:18:36  <planetmaker> yep. at least 6 weeks too long
11:18:56  <planetmaker> oh, welcome back, Eddi|zuHause  :-)
11:19:16  <Eddi|zuHause> at least 2 full months...
11:19:20  * MNIM congratulates Eddi|zuHause.
11:19:46  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: what for?
11:19:51  <planetmaker> ^
11:20:25  <MNIM> well, for the loss of your bundesprasident. (excuse my lack of umlaut. not using US-int)
11:20:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it's more planetmaker's president than mine :p
11:21:19  <planetmaker> oh, he was never mine
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11:21:33  <Eddi|zuHause> well, but he was from niedersachsen :p
11:21:42  <planetmaker> Can't say I voted for him there either ;-)
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11:22:37  <planetmaker> I kinda always had the impression that he plays in the Robert Koch liga
11:24:22  <Eddi|zuHause> well, now that there are two pirates in the Bundesversammlung, there's a chance they will nominate Georg Schramm ( :p
11:24:46  <planetmaker> hehe
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11:26:39  <andythenorth> mornink
11:26:55  <Eddi|zuHause> <- members of the "electorate council" of the president
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11:34:02  <Eddi|zuHause> my estimate is that the government won't risk another "close" election and instead pushes for a "common" candidate over all "democratic" parties
11:34:49  <Eddi|zuHause> by the numbers on that page, the government would only have a 2-4 vote (absolute) majority
11:35:19  <Eddi|zuHause> and they had problems the last time with a ~40 vote majority
11:36:13  <Eddi|zuHause> "democratic parties" is conservative code for "not the left" :p
11:38:00  <planetmaker> nor the ultra-right
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11:38:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but there's a difference between 3 votes an 125 votes...
11:38:52  <planetmaker> @calc 125/3
11:38:53  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 41.6666666667
11:39:00  <planetmaker> about a factor of 42 :-P
11:41:20  <TrueBrain> Pi = 3 = 2 = 1, so meh, its nothing
11:42:16  <planetmaker> but only for small pi
11:43:47  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can make pi smaller by eating some
11:45:51  <planetmaker> TrueBrain, the validity of the statement "1 = nothing" highly depends on the operation ;-)
11:46:23  <TrueBrain> 1 = nothing is just silly
11:46:33  <TrueBrain> we are not in the business of making nothing :)
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12:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause> the most obscure suggestion i heard today: "they should make sarkozy the german president, because merkel likes him so much, and his reelection in france is questionable" :p
12:22:34  <MNIM> hahaha
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12:37:36  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... operator priority/semantics: wth does a line like this do? Command & c = *;
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13:07:53  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Both operators . and () have the same higher precedence than operator *, and . () are left-to-right associative.
13:08:11  <Eddi|zuHause> so * is applied at the end?
13:08:32  <michi_cc> If the compiler works according to the precedence rules, yes :)
13:09:42  <michi_cc> This is the same reason why you can't dereference a 'std::vector<struct A *>::iterator i' by doing *i->aa, but have to do (*i)->a.
13:11:36  <Eddi|zuHause> sure. if you know the priorities, this is probably all very logical :)
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15:54:25  <Ammler> someone able to use the 64bit linux nightlies?
15:57:54  <Ammler> is it useful to count the time for password input for joining too?
16:01:45  <dihedral> you want me to test?
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16:04:18  <Ammler> I am on it right now :-)
16:04:33  <dihedral> ok
16:04:47  <Ammler> join ps and wait too long for pw input
16:04:52  <Ammler> then the server crashes
16:05:14  <Ammler> ah, you mean the 64bit binary?
16:05:21  <Ammler> that would be neat, indeed
16:06:08  <Ammler> hmm, this time, server stays up
16:06:34  <Ammler> anyway, why is the input time also part of the joining time?
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16:15:43  <krinn> hi
16:15:56  <Rubidium> Ammler: because there can only be so many conections, and it's pretty easy to write something that connects N times, goes through all the steps to get the request for the password and then nothing but starving the server
16:16:04  <krinn> TrueBrain, i found my AI error, i've put the infos on the bugreport
16:16:44  <krinn> it's a bad recursive call, the VM/openttd goes oom and crash
16:17:06  <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: which you can do regardless
16:17:31  <Rhamphoryncus> And given how tight the map download timeout is to begin with it'd make sense to at least have a separate timeout for password entry
16:17:50  <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: what makes you think they are related?
16:17:52  <Ammler> well, we can rise the timeout
16:18:10  <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: that was my impression.  I could be wrong of course.
16:18:35  <Ammler> Rubidium: they are just tested
16:18:51  <Rhamphoryncus> And I've hit the password timeout because I checked the IRC channel for it after it asked me for the PW.  It's obviously a very short timeout
16:19:12  <Rubidium> IIRC it's 30 seconds per password
16:21:45  <dihedral> would it then not make sense to require passing the password in the join packet?
16:21:52  <Ammler> ok, they aren't, but that changed somehow too the last year, right?
16:22:11  <dihedral> it is alreayd known that the passwords (server and/or company) are needed
16:22:13  <Ammler> and it isn't 30 secs
16:22:32  <Rhamphoryncus> dihedral: indeed.  The server could say "connection refused; password needed" and the client could behave to the user just the same as before
16:23:00  <Ammler> I am sure, I had a lot more time to input the password before
16:23:08  <dihedral> the client would behave the same way, just postponing sending the join packet until the user has entered both passwords
16:23:25  <Rubidium> Ammler: you had infinite time, which makes starving the server easy
16:23:48  <Rubidium> and someone actually did starve a server so it was more than time to do something about it
16:24:03  <Ammler> so, if I get the input password mask nobody else was able to join that time?
16:24:18  <Rubidium> no, someone else can join
16:24:52  <Rubidium> *but* if I open 255 OpenTTDs and let them join and let them wait while I do not enter a password, then nobody can join
16:25:06  <Rubidium> as amount of players and such is checked *before* the password
16:25:29  <dihedral> Ammler, enable per IP max connections in iptables :-P
16:25:48  <Rubidium> ofcourse I don't need to open OpenTTD for that, just need to write a small script that does that
16:25:59  <Ammler> ah ok, well the crash at first time was something else, I wouldn't have rised this question without :-)
16:26:03  <dihedral> and then xargs it ^^
16:26:25  <FLHerne> Ammler: I have 64 bit Linux, what needs testing in the nightly?
16:26:57  <Ammler> do you use the generic nightlies from openttd?
16:27:25  <FLHerne> Not normally, but I can get them...
16:27:53  <Ammler> yes, those do not work here, can you confirm? :-)
16:28:06  <FLHerne> Will try
16:28:10  <Rubidium> Ammler: SDL 2?
16:28:32  <krinn> you mean nightly linux openttd doesn't compile or run ?
16:28:37  <Ammler> 1.2.14
16:29:01  <Ammler> krinn: no, the generic nightlies from do not work here
16:29:26  <Ammler> if I build self, I have working bins
16:29:27  <dihedral> i can start the copy i just downloaded - 'does not work here' might have to be more detailed ;-)
16:29:43  <krinn> Ammler, oh you mean the binaries so ?
16:30:01  <Ammler> yes, how else do you get 64bit from
16:30:08  <Ammler> what*
16:30:23  <Rubidium> it works for me
16:30:27  <Ammler> :-P
16:30:52  <krinn> well, provide source, and you can build it 64bits, that's why i ask binaries ones or not
16:30:54  <Ammler> well, it does not complain about mising lib or so like before
16:31:21  <dihedral> krinn, the source is not 64bit ;-)
16:31:22  <Ammler> krinn: yeah, sorry
16:32:07  <Rubidium> Ammler: I guess it's caused by some library that you updated locally
16:32:10  <Rubidium> no clue which one though
16:32:24  <Ammler> bash: ./openttd: cannot execute binary file
16:32:26  <Rubidium> maybe freetype?
16:32:35  <Ammler> that's the whole output
16:32:46  <Rubidium> and what does ldd and file say?
16:32:48  <dihedral> strace ./openttd ?
16:32:49  <krinn> chmod +x :)
16:33:05  <FLHerne> Seems to work - starts, generates map, plays...
16:33:09  <Ammler>    not a dynamic executable
16:33:24  <FLHerne> Kubuntu 11.10, x86_64
16:33:43  <dihedral> Ammler, sure you got the 64bit version?
16:33:54  <krinn> linux will also tell you that if you try running a 32bits binary with a 64bits kernel without 32bits support
16:34:16  <Ammler>
16:34:25  <dihedral> krinn, ubuntu will tell you that
16:34:44  <Ammler> dihedral: the path does hopefully confirm that ;-)
16:35:49  <Ammler> someone non ubuntu here?
16:35:55  <krinn> me, but 32bits
16:35:57  * Rubidium
16:36:04  <FLHerne> Me, but PPC
16:36:13  <dihedral> i am too
16:36:19  <dihedral> fc currently
16:36:32  <Rubidium> are you really running a 64 bits operating system?
16:36:32  <krinn> did you try "file openttd" ?
16:36:48  <Ammler> Rubidium: :-D
16:36:50  <dihedral> Rubidium, hihi
16:37:29  <Ammler> he
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16:38:08  <dihedral> :-O
16:38:15  <dihedral> Ammler!
16:38:17  <dihedral> i hope not!
16:38:18  <Ammler> installing SDL-devel and try to build
16:38:32  <Ammler> this is a very young system :-)
16:38:36  <dihedral> Ammler, uname -a?
16:38:39  <Ammler> but yes, it is 64bit
16:38:56  <Ammler> hmm
16:38:59  <Ammler> maybe not
16:39:00  <krinn> just do file openttd it will tell you the loader need on it
16:39:30  <Ammler> could it be, I used the wrong suse image last time I installed :-D
16:39:32  <krinn> openttd: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, BuildID[sha1]=0x5a963baca627e5e01417294914812963f32a8266, stripped
16:39:33  <krinn>  (that's the 1.1.5 amd build) i don't know where u get the nightly
16:39:40  <Ammler> omg
16:39:57  <dihedral> lol
16:40:38  <Ammler> let us come back to the password timeout issue :-P
16:40:46  <krinn> :)
16:41:00  <dihedral> Ammler: you are more amusing than my worst clients :-P
16:41:06  <dihedral> i do not believe this :-P
16:41:46  <Ammler> well, when do you check arch of a installed system, when you are used to use 64bit there?
16:42:07  <dihedral> is it YOUR computer?
16:42:18  <FLHerne> What is the password timeout issue? If I know, I can come back to it :-)
16:42:21  <Ammler> ah, let us speak about timeout
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16:42:32  <dihedral> lol
16:42:56  <Ammler> this 64bit issue was just because I wanted to test the timeout
16:42:59  * Rubidium times out
16:43:42  <Ammler> hmm, I might just stay with 32bit, should not hurt
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16:44:28  <Ammler> oh, it does, memory is gone too :-)
16:44:42  <krinn> enable pae
16:44:56  <dihedral> reinstall :-P
16:45:05  <Ammler> what a stupid idea it was to install from that live image
16:45:13  <dihedral> :-D
16:45:33  <Ammler> seems like it just copied the content
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16:54:32  * andythenorth ponders procedurally generating stuff
16:54:39  <andythenorth> like the work I'm supposed to be doing
16:54:59  <andythenorth> for i in day.hours(): do_stuff
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18:06:31  <Terkhen> hello
18:08:50  <andythenorth> hola Terkhen
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19:26:00  <Matulla> hi all what happens in a city when i press generate new homes
19:26:21  <Matulla> can i press this more then once a year
19:26:24  <Alberth> in the SE ?
19:26:44  <Matulla> in desert
19:26:58  <Alberth> SE = the scenario editor
19:27:14  <Matulla> no in the running game
19:27:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Matulla: it speeds up city growth and ignores the water/food requirement for some time
19:27:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Matulla: it is usually not helpful to do this more than once
19:27:51  <Alberth> it's a good way to spend your money :p
19:27:52  <Matulla> ok thanks
19:28:18  <Matulla> i got now money enoph after 30 game years
19:28:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Matulla: you can usually see when the effect wears off when the pavements change
19:29:29  <Eddi|zuHause> they should have railways in widelands... :p
19:29:30  <Matulla> i never saw a pavements  yet i need to zoom in
19:29:56  <Matulla> sometimes there are post appearing if i press  advertise
19:31:33  <Matulla> is there more effect at transportation higher then 90%
19:31:45  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: trains moving back and forth :)
19:31:46  <Matulla> or the same as 80
19:32:29  <Alberth> Matulla: there is a wiki page about such stuff:
19:32:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Matulla: station rating of 90% means you get 90% of the cargo produced nearby
19:32:49  <Matulla> and is this a bug when the message comes up production down at a 91% deliver rate
19:33:30  <Matulla> Eddi|zuHause: not the station rate the plant rate
19:33:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23961 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
19:33:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:33:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 6 changes by KorneySan, Wowanxm
19:33:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 16 changes by arnau
19:33:36  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 6 changes by VoyagerOne
19:33:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by Parody
19:33:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
19:35:52  <Matulla> is this a must to get a company town
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19:37:01  <Eddi|zuHause> a what?
19:37:24  <Matulla> the place where the company is homed
19:37:40  <Eddi|zuHause> you can build that from your company window
19:37:53  <Eddi|zuHause> click the face icon in the menu bar
19:37:56  <Matulla> do i need to put this on i know that there is somthing but i never did that
19:38:09  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need one
19:38:16  <Matulla> ok
19:38:21  <Eddi|zuHause> it just looks pretty, and produces some passengers
19:41:40  <Alberth> hmm, it is not even used in the town rating :)
19:41:57  <Matulla> bribe O.o
19:43:05  <Matulla> Thanks  i will fil up all the tiles (almost) of my map
19:44:01  <Matulla> last question can a bigger airport only be build on the  smaler one place
19:44:15  <Matulla> with same station name
19:44:37  <Alberth> size has nothing to do with it
19:45:40  <Alberth> it needs to be "close enough" to the old station, that's all
19:45:47  <Matulla> i tryed to get a bigger one on the othe end of the town by removing the smaler on e and it did not work maybe thrue to not enoph points to the town athoryty
19:46:34  <Matulla> it gave me a other station name and now i trevel by train to the airport
19:46:48  <Alberth> 'the other end of the town' sounds too far away
19:47:00  <Matulla> no  6 tiles
19:47:42  <Matulla> ok no factor just a guess
19:47:43  <Alberth> the old station name gets lost if you wait too long with building a new station
19:48:11  <Matulla> if you got planes in the air you cant wait to long
19:48:52  <Alberth> yeah, it's always a lot of stress to get the airport replaced
19:49:10  <Matulla> thanks
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20:01:31  <Alberth> woow, 130M for widelands :)
20:02:12  *** cmircea [~cmircea@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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20:03:23  <andythenorth> efening
20:03:28  <Alberth> hi andy
20:06:16  * andythenorth unusually agrees 100% with oberhumer
20:06:20  <andythenorth> but nvm
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20:14:07  <andythenorth> the answer is not on FB or BBC news
20:14:13  <andythenorth> is there more internets I should look on?
20:21:19  <Alberth> depends on the question
20:22:13  <andythenorth> 'entertain me?'
20:22:14  <andythenorth> :P
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20:22:33  <andythenorth> quak quak quak
20:22:41  <frosch123> moin :)
20:22:43  <andythenorth> hmm
20:22:45  <Alberth> oh, download a random game, and try to figure out how to play it
20:22:49  <andythenorth> I should have made that procedural
20:22:52  <Alberth> hi frosch123
20:23:07  <andythenorth> { 'frosch123' : ['quak','quak','quak']}
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20:23:46  <Linnefer> heya
20:23:51  <Alberth> hi
20:24:00  <Zuu> Hello
20:24:23  <Linnefer> I have a question concerning instalation of openTTD without TTD
20:24:45  <Alberth> it works
20:24:45  <Linnefer> where do the open gfx etc belong?
20:24:55  <frosch123> check the readme
20:25:05  <frosch123> depends on your os and the version of ottd
20:25:22  <frosch123> the readme is linked on the download page
20:25:24  <Alberth>
20:25:32  <Linnefer> windows...
20:25:37  <Alberth> I had it book marked :)
20:25:40  <frosch123> ^^ that's for 1.2.0 only
20:25:56  <Alberth> hmm, good point
20:25:57  <frosch123> 1.1 has a different location
20:26:33  <Linnefer> I have 1.1.5if I read that right
20:27:01  <frosch123> then you need to put it into the "data" folder instead of the "baseset" folder (compared to 1.2)
20:27:09  <Alberth>      yes, it's one line up :)
20:27:45  <Linnefer> just all the open gfx/music/sounds to that?
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20:27:56  <Alberth> moin Wolf01
20:28:07  <Wolf01> hello
20:30:16  <Linnefer> ok, thanks!
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21:07:25  <Zuu> The title game vote is hard this year. Many good contributions.
21:10:16  <planetmaker> agreed. I'm quite happy about that
21:10:27  <planetmaker> but I haven't made up my mind so far either
21:10:49  <Zuu> I have made my list of 3 now but have changed their order a few times.
21:11:17  <Zuu> You are brave that take votes by user names and not entry numbers.
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21:20:44  <frosch123> did fred submit this year?
21:21:37  *** Sacro_ [~ben@] has quit []
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21:31:09  <andythenorth> procedural with load sprites ;)
21:32:03  <Alberth> dict(('andythenorth' : 'the approach works out very nicely, I must say'.split()))
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21:32:39  <Alberth> hmm, s/:/,/   of course :(
21:32:48  <andythenorth> it's quite simple so far
21:33:06  <andythenorth> I could add more detail to lighting / shading with almost no work
21:33:07  <Alberth> yeah, quite surprisingly
21:33:21  <andythenorth> what's interesting is whether I need more floor plans for different truck types
21:33:25  <andythenorth> might be simplest
21:33:58  <Alberth> I was wondering whether you'd need a line drawing routine, but apparently not
21:36:36  <Rubidium> frosch123: doesn't seem like he did :(
21:37:51  <frosch123> i wonder whether someone resubmitted a save from the previous years .p
21:39:43  <Alberth> look at the game logs :)
21:40:32  <Eddi|zuHause> the images from the previous years are archived?
21:41:58  <Rubidium> yes, though not further back that 1.0 :(
21:43:50  <Rubidium> is SCO still not bankrupt? :(
21:43:54  <andythenorth> Alberth: it's a dumb sort of line routine
21:43:59  <andythenorth> :)
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21:46:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: we didn't have title game contests before 1.0
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21:56:24  <andythenorth> Alberth: if you're looking for a project, I still have to figure out how to render each set of angles, then write them out to the correct location in a new file ;)
21:56:52  <andythenorth> 1 input file = lots of rows of sprites for different load states, body styles
21:57:45  <Eddi|zuHause> there's not much point of a generator if you have to input the same number of images that you get out
22:01:12  <andythenorth> +1
22:01:23  <andythenorth> that would be more of a transformer :P
22:01:39  <andythenorth> it's akin to building ikea furniture from a flat pack :P
22:01:53  <Terkhen> why do you need an image generator?
22:02:12  <Alberth> that's a negative generator, if all goes well. It goes from many to 1 piece :)
22:02:29  <Alberth> Terkhen: people are lazy :)
22:02:56  <Terkhen> I reckon that the effort that the generator would take would be better spent in creating images
22:03:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: the idea was "truck trailers mostly look alike, just have different length"
22:03:15  <andythenorth> Terkhen: would you like to draw for BANDIT? :)
22:03:34  <Terkhen> nope, as I usually say, I couldn't draw to save my life
22:03:44  <andythenorth> you can draw these trailers
22:03:54  <andythenorth> they're just a regular pattern, with tweaks for lighting
22:04:07  <andythenorth> I considered paying someone on amazon turk to do it :P
22:05:22  <Alberth> what's this "render each set of angles, then write them out to the correct location in a new file" ?
22:06:07  <Alberth> don't you do that already?
22:06:59  <andythenorth> I render out one result at the moment
22:07:09  <andythenorth> i.e. one row
22:07:23  <andythenorth> the load sprites I posted are copy-paste after tweaking a value :P
22:07:35  <andythenorth> which might be as effective as any other route, time-wise :P
22:07:44  <Alberth> you're cheating! :p
22:08:02  <andythenorth> current code is here:
22:08:17  <andythenorth> moving pixels around with PIL isn't hard by the looks of it, I just need to read the docs
22:08:34  <andythenorth> I think my code might benefit from review btw ;)
22:09:26  <Eddi|zuHause> why do you need multiple rows in a file?
22:09:35  <Eddi|zuHause> can just as well have multiple files
22:09:44  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: good point
22:09:53  <andythenorth> naming conventions ftw....
22:10:13  <andythenorth> is there any compile time overhead to opening more pngs?
22:10:44  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: btw whilst you were switched bandit compile to nmlc -> nfo -> grfcodec
22:11:04  <andythenorth> compiles in ~50% of the time compared to nmlc -> grf
22:11:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
22:11:27  <Eddi|zuHause> same thing i did
22:11:30  <andythenorth> I also wrote a (dev only) shell script to build, skippinyg all dep checks
22:11:35  <andythenorth> which is faster
22:11:52  <andythenorth> I'm not ditching the makefile though
22:12:32  <andythenorth> I also started curling the bandit config from my website, which is....slow
22:12:59  <Alberth> nml is slow in the graphics conversion, isn't it?
22:13:11  <andythenorth> I don't know how to profile, but that seems a fair bet
22:13:26  <Alberth> I was wondering whether you could cache that
22:13:27  <Eddi|zuHause> nml is slow - period
22:13:30  <Terkhen> andythenorth: "time make" worked for me
22:13:34  <Terkhen> but yeah, nml is slower
22:13:53  <Alberth> Terkhen: 'profile' is about finding out what part is slow :)
22:14:07  <Terkhen> oh, that
22:14:08  <Terkhen> :P
22:14:42  <Terkhen> maybe it is the "working with a language instead of with a bunch of bytes" part
22:14:56  <andythenorth> I could patch nml src to print out elapsed times
22:15:05  <andythenorth> if I understand the pipeline better....
22:15:15  <andythenorth> but you don't want me doing that, I make wrong conclusions too often
22:15:17  <Terkhen> python must have some gprof equivalent
22:15:35  <Alberth> it has
22:16:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i had the command a few weeks ago...
22:16:28  <andythenorth> for BANDIT and FIRS the times are ok
22:16:32  <andythenorth> for CETS...not
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22:18:56  <andythenorth> cProfile?
22:19:22  <andythenorth>
22:19:27  * andythenorth wonders what's slow
22:19:56  <Eddi|zuHause> "python -m cProfile -s time ../nml/nmlc -o cets.nfo cets.nml > profile2.txt"
22:20:14  <Eddi|zuHause>
22:20:15  <Eddi|zuHause>
22:20:24  <Eddi|zuHause>
22:20:32  * andythenorth wonders if it's the kind of slowness that's amenable to cython or such
22:20:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the latter with "-s cumulative"
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22:22:15  <Rhamphoryncus> ergh, reduce?
22:23:28  <Rhamphoryncus> reduce is almost always wrong
22:23:46  <andythenorth> reduce as in map:reduce?
22:24:05  <Rhamphoryncus> yes
22:24:21  <Rhamphoryncus> I should clarify: in python reduce is almost always wrong
22:24:26  <andythenorth> distributing tasks to worker threads?
22:24:44  <Rhamphoryncus> no, the reduce() builtin
22:24:45  <Eddi|zuHause> you're probably thinking something completely different
22:24:54  * andythenorth thinks so too
22:25:23  <Rhamphoryncus> Can't tell just from the profile output
22:26:54  <Eddi|zuHause> <- code
22:27:02  <Rhamphoryncus> thanks
22:27:47  <Rhamphoryncus> So it's a method with the same name as a builtin.  Nope, I no longer feel like I was wrong.  It's poor style that's to blame for my mistake.
22:28:23  <Eddi|zuHause> didn't even know there's a "reduce" builtin
22:29:10  <Rhamphoryncus> It's taken out of the builtin namespace in python3
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22:30:08  <Rhamphoryncus> The thing about reduce is that, except for certain cases, the runtime is quadratic
22:30:16  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, so reduce is actually fold...
22:32:42  <Alberth> andythenorth:  ?
22:33:00  <Rhamphoryncus> looks like reduce is just a recursive evaluator?
22:34:43  <Alberth> or simplifier, I think
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22:36:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: not all values of the expression are actually constants, so "evaluation" is probably the wrong word
22:36:22  <Rhamphoryncus> partial evaluation?
22:36:43  <Rhamphoryncus> Or are they variables that it retrieves the current value from?
22:37:18  <andythenorth> Alberth: I wondered if I could knock out some of the structures
22:37:29  <andythenorth> seems a bit over-complicated right now
22:37:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23962 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqvm.h: -Fix [FS#5068]: [Script] Infinite recursion within a script wasn't caught properly, so they could cause crashes of OpenTTD instead of the AI
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22:37:47  <Alberth> andythenorth: you seem to like disctionaries a lot
22:38:26  <Rhamphoryncus> sets are the new dictionaries ;)
22:38:28  <andythenorth> I prefer explicitly named values
22:38:38  <andythenorth> I don't like code that's some_list[27]
22:38:40  <andythenorth> or whatever :)
22:39:26  <andythenorth> l49-50 is much better
22:39:37  <andythenorth> as is l37-38
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22:39:49  <andythenorth> thanks :)
22:41:12  <Alberth> except it's some_tuple[..]  :)
22:42:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: expressions are trees, reduce transforms one expression-tree into a (potentially smaller) expression-tree
22:42:43  <Rhamphoryncus> If it's a tuple then take a look at namedtuple
22:42:44  <Alberth> I found your sequences quite interesting: bulk_load_1 = ([(0, 2), 4],)    I'd write   bulk_load_1 = [((0, 2), 4)]
22:43:14  <andythenorth> it's a naughty design choice - I just wanted the nested brackets to be easy to see :P
22:43:18  <Alberth> Rhamphoryncus: I was wondering about those too, but I couldn't pinpoint the name
22:43:30  <Rhamphoryncus> Eddi|zuHause: still sounds like evaluation
22:43:45  <Rhamphoryncus> reducing the tree.. by evaluating it.
22:43:53  <andythenorth> alberth in the sequences - I wondered if I needed to do (x,y) as a tuple at all
22:43:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: like it will reduce "1+3" to 4, but "1+a" will stay "1+a" if a is not a compile-time constant
22:44:24  <Rhamphoryncus> that in particular is constant folding
22:44:45  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
22:44:49  <Rhamphoryncus> and constant propagation
22:45:03  <andythenorth> hmm namedTuple - fields accessible by name
22:45:11  <Alberth> it's not strictly needed, and here you don't gain much, except keeping coordinates more separate from the colour.
22:45:12  <andythenorth> I nearly wrote a stubby object to do that
22:45:30  <andythenorth> seemed like over-engineering at this stage
22:45:48  <Rhamphoryncus> namedtuple is basically for trivial classes
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22:46:17  <Alberth> I like the (x,y) pairs
22:46:40  <Rhamphoryncus> (x,y) is usually too trivial even for namedtuple.  Usually.
22:47:18  * andythenorth will stick with named pairs
22:47:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: it also does some optimizations like preparing the expression for the shift/mask fields of nfo
22:47:28  <Rhamphoryncus> For graphics rendering it could easily grow a set of helper methods that put it beyond namedtuple
22:47:31  <andythenorth> Alberth: do you have a paste of the code?  I  can't get it to apply as a diff....
22:48:54  <Alberth> I didn't, but I created one :)
22:50:18  <Alberth> if colour != 255 and colour != 0 and colour != 15:     if colour not in (0, 15, 255):
22:50:22  <Eddi|zuHause>
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22:51:18  <andythenorth> Alberth: :D
22:51:30  <andythenorth> I can probably figure it out though
22:51:35  <andythenorth> might just be upside down
22:52:25  <andythenorth> Alberth: -dy ;)
22:52:35  <Rhamphoryncus> Eddi|zuHause: at least a translation would help
22:52:39  <andythenorth> fixed
22:52:43  <Alberth> ok :)
22:53:13  <andythenorth> now a ridiculously short amount of code considering what the results are :)
22:53:44  <Alberth> that's good; long python code is either very complex or it is wrong :)
22:53:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the beauty of (code) generators: they're usually very short
22:54:04  <Alberth> lol :)
22:54:47  <Alberth> at work I am writing one, and I counted 10700 lines of Java today, and it's not even working yet :)
22:55:21  <Alberth> oh, excuding the language definition classes, as they are generated by EMF :)
22:55:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: it's probably useless to simply translate this, if you don't get the context :)
22:56:07  <andythenorth> Alberth my biggest puzzle is how to write the configuration files
22:56:14  <andythenorth> or just put them inline
22:56:20  <andythenorth> this is just one trailer type
22:56:30  <andythenorth> I need about 5, plus recolor options
22:56:42  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: start with inline.  Add a config file later only if you need it
22:57:12  <andythenorth> I've had it rigorously drummed into me to separate code and content :P
22:57:13  <Rhamphoryncus> But.. it'd help if your config is a single object passed around, rather than a series of globals inspected all over the place
22:57:35  <Rhamphoryncus> Separate them structurally but leave them in the same file
22:58:08  <Alberth> make a config class?
22:58:19  <Alberth> or a dict
22:58:20  <andythenorth> then instance it?
22:58:31  <andythenorth> Alberth: didn't you just murder my dicts :D
22:58:32  <andythenorth> ?
22:58:34  <Eddi|zuHause> make a dict
22:58:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i usually do
22:58:50  <Alberth> andythenorth: dicts of 2-3 entries :p
22:58:51  <Rhamphoryncus> instance it, yes.  Do *not* use singletons for state.  They're stupid, nonsensical things :P
22:59:17  <Alberth> used at one place :)
22:59:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: read them from the tracking table
22:59:56  <Alberth> well, I am off to bed; everybody have a safe flight home, and see you all tomorrow somewhen hopefully
23:00:01  <andythenorth> Alberth: thanks ;)
23:00:07  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that might be a nightmare :o
23:00:14  <andythenorth> I did consider drawing them into a png
23:00:19  <andythenorth> then having PIL just read them :P
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23:01:42  * andythenorth favours passing a dict around maybe
23:01:54  <andythenorth> or...instance objects, and call the render method directly on the object
23:01:56  <andythenorth> might be better
23:02:10  <andythenorth> then I can stick objects in a list, render all, writing each one to a png
23:02:13  <andythenorth> tidy tidy tidy
23:02:55  <andythenorth> Elukka: you keeping up with this? :)
23:03:12  <andythenorth> you might seriously consider generated sprites for regular-shaped wagons / coaches
23:03:49  <Elukka> i'm following, whatever i can understand :P
23:03:56  <Elukka> i would seriously consider anything that might make it easier
23:04:06  <andythenorth> I made a test coach yesterday, it was ~10 mins work
23:04:10  <andythenorth> it's not great yet
23:04:21  <andythenorth> but it might get you primitives that are easy to then improve
23:04:51  *** lmergen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:05:27  *** KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:07:40  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: so I'd want to init objects with stuff like this:
23:07:44  <andythenorth> good way to do that?
23:07:55  <andythenorth> passing it all in from the constructor call seems ugly
23:08:06  <Rhamphoryncus> You want a similar syntax?
23:08:16  <andythenorth> needs to be easy to read/write is all ;)
23:08:21  <andythenorth> (the data does need to be different per instance)
23:08:38  <andythenorth> I don't like this syntax tbh:
23:08:42  <andythenorth> body_outer = ([(0, 0), body_colour], [(0, 1), cc_colour], [(0, 2), body_colour], [(0, 3), body_colour], [(0, 4), 13])
23:08:44  <andythenorth> it's clunky
23:08:45  <Elukka> andy, cool
23:08:49  <Elukka> is it possible to make more angles with it?
23:08:57  <andythenorth> absolutely
23:09:39  <andythenorth> Elukka:
23:10:10  <Rhamphoryncus> Is it always (int, int), constant?
23:10:41  <Elukka> i mean as in the myriad extra angles of CETS :D
23:11:05  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: (int, int), constant or (int, int), int
23:11:14  <andythenorth> the constants can be local to the object instance
23:11:25  <andythenorth> Elukka: it can do any angles you draw a floor plan for
23:11:29  <andythenorth> there is *no* clever maths
23:11:37  <Elukka> sweet
23:11:48  <Rhamphoryncus> ah.  Hrm.  Well, I will say this is a hard thing to do well.
23:11:58  <andythenorth> elukka when it finds a pixel of colour n, it draws more pixels offset by (some values)
23:12:04  <andythenorth> and whatever colour(s) you want
23:12:19  <andythenorth> I did try randomising pixel colours from a list to add variety, but it sucked
23:12:24  <Rhamphoryncus> You could replace [(0, 0), body_colour] with P(0, 0, body_colour)
23:12:46  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: I could pass a dict to the object
23:13:01  <Rhamphoryncus> huh?
23:13:03  <andythenorth> but then I don't gain much from the object
23:13:04  <andythenorth> :P
23:13:22  <andythenorth> the hardest part of this is the human-> code interface :)
23:13:56  <Rhamphoryncus> P(0, 0, body_colour) reduces the parenthesis/etc, which makes it less noisy
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23:14:56  <Rhamphoryncus> body_outer = [P(0, 0, body_colour), P(0, 1, cc_colour), P(0, 2, body_colour), P(0, 3, body_colour), P(0, 4, 13)]
23:15:36  <Rhamphoryncus> A list is more appropriate (that's homogenous data, not heterogeneous) and is a different character from P()
23:16:26  <andythenorth> the P thing is good for readability
23:16:37  <andythenorth> although it would have tripped me up if this was someone else's code ;)
23:17:12  <Rhamphoryncus> You could also replace body_colour and cc_colour with BODY and CC.  Perhaps even make them singletons (the constant sort!) that are replaced with the configured value later
23:18:37  <andythenorth> so I make a singleton by...?
23:18:49  <andythenorth> singletons are unique in which namespace(s)?
23:19:03  * andythenorth asks dumb newbie questions
23:19:17  <Rhamphoryncus> A "global" in python is just an attribute of that module.  Exact same as everything else in that module.
23:19:33  <andythenorth> k
23:19:40  <Rhamphoryncus> the easiest way here is "BODY = object()", then use "if x is BODY: x = ..."
23:22:11  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: any idea how to find docs on P for parentheses?
23:22:20  <andythenorth> all I can find with google is regex stuff
23:22:41  <Rhamphoryncus> umm, P isn't anything.  It's just an arbitrary class name I picked :)
23:22:50  <Rhamphoryncus> you could used namedtuple to create it
23:23:03  <andythenorth> ah ha :)
23:23:08  <andythenorth> I thought it was a built in trick
23:23:26  <andythenorth> ok
23:33:12  <andythenorth> ho
23:33:16  <andythenorth> I could just write:
23:33:52  <andythenorth> body_outer = 0,0,BODY,0,1,BODY,0,2,14,0,3,14,0,4,ROOF
23:34:01  <andythenorth> not hugely readable :P
23:37:09  <dihedral> Zuu, are you interested in creating a NoGo lib for the json communication with the admin port?
23:37:48  <Zuu> My first though is why?
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23:37:50  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: this might be dumb, but can I import a module into an object's namespace?
23:38:13  <Nat_as> Why are there no bidirectional path signals?
23:38:15  <Rhamphoryncus> No, but you can import in a method.  Just use "import foo" as normal
23:38:19  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> there is *no* clever maths <-- that's probably what's wrong with it :p
23:38:31  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: feel free to contribute :)
23:38:32  <Zuu> And the second, what do you relly want to do?
23:38:51  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: procedural lighting, base on figuring out the angle....?
23:39:00  <Zuu> Sorry if I sound negative.. :-)
23:39:07  <Rhamphoryncus> importing a module in python is idempotent.  The first time it gets stashed in sys.modules and every time after gets a reference to the same object
23:39:26  <Rhamphoryncus> (unless there's a pathing issue and it imports as two separate modules.. which does happen occasionally..)
23:39:34  <frosch123> night
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23:39:56  <andythenorth> if I import a module that defines BODY, then later import another module that also defines BODY, will BODY be over-written?
23:40:09  <Rhamphoryncus> No, they're separate
23:40:12  <andythenorth> (that would be desirable in this case, usually not)
23:41:41  <Rhamphoryncus> If you use "from foo import BODY" then you'll have a local variable to the same object as foo.BODY.  Modifying that object will affect both (they're the same object), but if you reassign such as "BODY  = BODY + 1" it'll only replace the local variable
23:42:13  <Rhamphoryncus> I did suggest having BODY be a singleton.  There'd be no reason to redefine it somewhere else.
23:42:33  <andythenorth> it will need redefining per recolour ;)
23:42:37  <andythenorth> but that's later....
23:43:25  <Rhamphoryncus> Have P() do "if x is BODY: x = config.body_colour"
23:48:03  * andythenorth needs to write def P: :P
23:50:26  <michi_cc> Nat_as: Because they don't make sense. A signal can't be a safe waiting point for two trains at once. What you might want instead is the configuration shown on
23:52:20  <Nat_as> oh
23:52:35  <Nat_as> I can place normal path signals facing inward in stations?
23:52:43  <Nat_as> damn that makes my layout much better
23:52:54  <Nat_as> I was using bidirectonal plain signals the whole time
23:53:04  *** kkb110_ [] has joined #openttd
23:53:04  <Nat_as> maybe now I wont get gridlock
23:53:52  <Rhamphoryncus> def P: # :P fed

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