Log for #openttd on 20th February 2012:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:03  <Eddi|zuHause> actually both the first steam engine and the first railway were built in roman times, just nobody thought of combining both
00:00:14  <Rhamphoryncus> The station rating stuff can't handle such slow trains
00:01:27  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is actually that the station rating does a very poor job of balancing the production vs. the capacity
00:01:44  <Nat_as> station raiting is a bad mechanic anyways
00:02:20  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
00:03:44  <Nat_as> if it could be fixed, a 1850-1930 would be a nice niche to play in thought.
00:04:04  <Nat_as> esp if new disasters could be implemented like indians and bandits.
00:05:20  <Eddi|zuHause> FIRS 0.7.x has an option to set station rating to 100%
00:06:18  <Nat_as> FIRS?
00:07:26  <Eddi|zuHause> "UTF-8 encryption"
00:07:29  <Eddi|zuHause> haha :p
00:16:49  <Eddi|zuHause> you know what amuses me? for over two years they have been talking pretty much every week about "the coalition will break about decision X"... and it never happens...
00:20:47  *** KenjiE20 [] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6]
00:21:56  *** KenjiE20 [] has joined #openttd
00:23:01  *** sla_ro|master [slaco@] has quit []
00:24:04  <Rhamphoryncus> "Who the heck uses implicit orders.. oh hey, there's one of my save games with implicit orders!"
00:25:20  <__ln__> meanwhile in greece:
00:25:34  *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido]
00:26:50  <Eddi|zuHause> who cares about greece...
00:28:00  <__ln__> i won't once they return to drakhma.
00:28:04  <Rhamphoryncus> I do see one advantage of implicit orders: they're grey rather than black.
00:28:24  <Nat_as> you know
00:28:47  <Nat_as> it would be nice if trains could try to avoid visiting stations they are not specificity sent to if possible.
00:28:57  <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_as: non-stop
00:29:10  <Rhamphoryncus> Which can even be made the default for newly created orders
00:29:28  <Nat_as> oh it can be default?
00:29:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_as: they do that
00:29:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_as: if there's a (not too long) path around the station, they take it
00:30:05  *** Devroush [] has quit []
00:30:14  <Nat_as> well I have had times where trains have gone the whole other way to get somewhere and I could never figure out why
00:30:23  <Nat_as> even thought I double checked everything for blockages
00:30:33  <Nat_as> it seemed to me taking the wrong route just because it could.
00:31:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that has absolutely nothing to do with this, though
00:31:04  <Nat_as> yeah
00:31:13  <Nat_as> I digress.
00:31:33  <DabuYu> Nat_as: a single wrongly placed signal can do that
00:31:40  <Rhamphoryncus> A savegame of that can be useful
00:31:41  <Nat_as> implicit orders are almost always a sign of something wrong for me thought
00:31:49  <Rhamphoryncus> Or a gap in the track
00:32:03  <Nat_as> yeah I checked for that, and could not find anything
00:32:06  <DabuYu> Rhamphoryncus: a gap is easier to spot, a signal not that easy
00:32:10  <Nat_as> I don't think I have that game either.
00:32:12  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, ditto.  This game is the first one since I started playing again
00:32:16  <Nat_as> yeah I might have missed it.
00:32:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_as: so you'd likely never notice if they weren't there
00:32:25  <Rhamphoryncus> DabuYu: half tile, hidden by trees at the start of a bridge..
00:32:42  <Nat_as> but if there is implicit orders on my lists that means there is something wrong
00:32:57  <Nat_as> it would be cool if there was a way to check for implicit orders.
00:32:58  <Eddi|zuHause> a gap in the tracks is very difficult to spot
00:33:10  <Eddi|zuHause> missing trackbit on maglev
00:33:13  <Eddi|zuHause> or missing catenary
00:33:19  <Nat_as> it's hard to spot in junctions
00:33:35  <Nat_as> actual lines it's usualy more oubvious.
00:34:11  <DabuYu> actually, if train can figure out routes, isn't it possible to write a check-tool for what route a new train will take from one station to the other?
00:34:20  <Eddi|zuHause> and there's much more subtle pathfinder oddities that could make a train take a wrong path
00:35:29  <Nat_as> yeah that's hard to prove though
00:35:47  <Nat_as> tell people on irc your train is going the wrong way and they will tell you to check your signals aggain
00:35:59  <Nat_as> which is fustrating because at that point you probably already have twice.
00:36:09  <Nat_as> nobody ever assumes you already googled or read the manual.
00:36:54  <Nat_as> the worst thing ever is when you google a bug, and all you can find is a form post of somebody asking about the same bug, only to be answered by some jerk telling him to google it.
00:37:06  * Nat_as goes on another tangent.
00:37:10  <Eddi|zuHause> the most obscure one i've seen is trains running in circles when all platforms are full, but happily waiting if one platform is free
00:37:11  <DabuYu> Nat_as: you'll be surprised how many come here immediately with those questions without any checking
00:37:26  <Nat_as> yeah I don't say it does not happen.
00:37:37  <Nat_as> but people need to be more understanding.
00:38:02  <DabuYu> true - i know your frustation, i had that too - but then i keep on telling 'already checked that' etc etc
00:38:06  <Eddi|zuHause> and another one where trains are not taking the straight track, but only if a train is on a specific platform in a station across half the map
00:38:09  <DabuYu> and the bug report too, that's quite annoying
00:38:24  <Nat_as> the bug report is a bigger problem imo
00:38:49  <Nat_as> if I ran a form, telling people to google it would be a bannable offense.
00:39:09  <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_as: Advanced/Vehicles/"New orders are 'non-stop' by default"
00:39:11  <Nat_as> anyways, I notice trucks seem to prefer making turns when possible
00:39:16  <Nat_as> even if it's not the best idea
00:39:27  <Nat_as> some crazy city layouts can send them in infinite loops.
00:39:45  <Nat_as> because they seem to think that because the desitnation is to the right of them, the next right turn must be the best option.
00:39:51  <Nat_as> only to be confronted with another turn
00:39:54  <Rhamphoryncus> Never seen that
00:39:56  <Nat_as> and they end up in circles
00:39:57  <Nat_as> I have.
00:40:06  <Rhamphoryncus> Savegame next time you see it
00:40:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_as: really, check your road connections :p
00:40:22  <Nat_as> not sure if that's the quirk that causes it, but I have seen cities send trucks into loops
00:40:40  <Nat_as> the truck ended up in that side of the city in the first place so there must be a way out
00:40:45  <Nat_as> and I can see a way out
00:40:52  <Nat_as> but the truck would rather go in circles
00:41:12  <Rhamphoryncus> Again, savegame.  There's no way to diagnose such a thing without the ability to reproduce.
00:42:10  <DabuYu> Nat_as: i've seen that in the original tt (maybe ttd)
00:42:54  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, original did that. but we now have a full pathfinder
00:43:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so if there's a way, it's guaranteed to be found
00:43:15  <DabuYu> yes, i have not seen it in openttd yet
00:44:22  <Rhamphoryncus> The first thing I'd check if I got such a savegame is what the pathfinder settings are
00:44:25  <Eddi|zuHause> (problem is, that may be a near-endless loop if there's no path, so some thresholds are in place to cancel the search)
00:45:14  <Nat_as> another problem is truck turning around
00:45:21  <Nat_as> but that is easy enough to fix
00:45:35  <Nat_as> I like trams because it FORCES you to take care of that.
00:46:08  <Nat_as> also double track
00:46:19  <Nat_as> Hmm, if trams exist, why can't double track trains exist?
00:46:45  <Eddi|zuHause> because of the map array, the construction method, and the movement pattern
00:47:09  <Nat_as> tams are trucks and drive on the side of a tile, trains can only move in the centre of a tile?
00:47:16  <Rhamphoryncus> IOW, it's baked in to the history of the game
00:47:44  <Eddi|zuHause> "movement pattern" means "ability to make turns other than on tile borders"
00:48:38  *** KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
00:50:10  <Eddi|zuHause> "construction method" includes things like "how do you make a connection from single to double", "how do you make branches", "how do you make crossovers", "how do you make curves in a way that you don't end up with 4 rails on diagonal tracks"
00:50:28  <Nat_as> yeah
00:50:45  <Nat_as> I remember in simutrans i participated in a few flamewars over the topic of double track
00:50:49  <Eddi|zuHause> and "map array" is about storing the track bits, the track reservations, signals, etc. with using as few bits as possible
00:51:04  <Nat_as> mostly because I was playing RT3 before that and it had double track
00:51:12  <Nat_as> but that was a much diffrent game
00:51:21  <Eddi|zuHause> if you can solve all these things, then you have a good chance of implementing this
00:51:22  <Nat_as> focusing more on economics than track layout.
00:51:50  <Nat_as> for instance trains would just stop and turn transparent as other trains would pass through them.
00:51:54  <Nat_as> shunting
00:52:08  <Nat_as> it allowed you to share tracks with other companies though, which is cool.
00:52:14  <Nat_as> probably not at all practical in OTTD.
00:52:29  <Eddi|zuHause> the next pitfall of doubletracks then is (newgrf) stations
00:53:26  <Nat_as> the indusrial station newgrif has a "classification yard" tileset with a cosmetic 3rd track.
00:54:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that is not how it's going to work. because that track is actually between two tiles
00:54:20  <Nat_as> yeah
00:55:01  <Nat_as> I wish the industrial stations newgrif was updaited
00:55:06  <Nat_as> it does not have stations for all cargo types
00:55:14  <Nat_as> but it is still the best station newgrif
00:55:22  <Nat_as> I wish the pasinger station ones were as nice.
00:55:55  <Nat_as> needs to be more automatic stations in general.
01:02:02  *** kkb110_ [] has joined #openttd
01:04:56  *** Biolunar [] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us]
01:05:39  *** valhallasw [~valhallas@] has quit [Quit: leaving]
01:13:27  *** Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:53:24  *** Phoenix_the_II [~ralph@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:54:20  *** cypher [] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
01:57:18  *** dada_ [] has quit [Quit: dada_]
02:01:01  *** theholyduck [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:02:30  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (117-25*3)/3
02:02:30  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 14
02:03:05  *** Nat_as [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
02:19:22  *** pugi [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:19:52  *** pugi [] has joined #openttd
02:24:25  *** perk11 [~perk11@] has joined #openttd
02:44:59  *** Avenger [~rafinha21@] has joined #openttd
02:46:03  <Avenger> olaaa
02:48:05  *** kkb110__ [] has joined #openttd
02:48:06  *** kkb110_ [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:28:39  *** Firartix [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:33:09  *** kkb110 [] has joined #openttd
03:33:09  *** kkb110__ [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:40:57  *** DOUK [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:48:25  *** pjpe [] has joined #openttd
03:57:04  *** perk11 [~perk11@] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
04:12:38  *** Avenger [~rafinha21@] has quit []
04:19:49  *** Avenger [~rafinha21@] has joined #openttd
04:20:24  *** Avenger [~rafinha21@] has quit []
04:42:34  *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:7069:fa9f:aa93:8366] has quit [Quit: bye]
04:56:36  *** tty234 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:07:38  *** cmircea [~cmircea@] has joined #openttd
05:20:26  *** pugi [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:36:53  *** Phoenix_the_II [] has joined #openttd
05:38:53  *** Phoenix_the_II [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:39:14  *** Phoenix_the_II [] has joined #openttd
05:43:16  *** Elukka [] has joined #openttd
06:43:28  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
06:43:49  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
06:48:07  *** kkb110 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:54:57  *** roboboy [] has joined #openttd
06:59:31  *** Phoenix_the_II [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:14:31  *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd
07:29:29  *** Rhamphoryncus [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:37:11  *** JVassie [~James@] has joined #openttd
07:37:39  *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:38:18  *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd
07:40:07  *** roboboy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:42:04  *** sla_ro|master [slaco@] has joined #openttd
08:01:27  *** JVassie [~James@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:14:10  *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd
08:14:10  *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:38:44  *** supermop [] has quit [Quit: supermop]
08:53:38  *** Prof_Frink [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:09:39  *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@] has joined #openttd
09:15:38  *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@] has joined #openttd
09:17:15  *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@] has quit []
09:53:19  *** DDR [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120216100510]]
09:58:32  *** Zeknurn [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:09:22  *** pjpe [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
10:12:11  *** Firartix [] has joined #openttd
10:14:48  *** APTX [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:15:35  *** APTX [] has joined #openttd
10:29:23  *** roboboy [] has joined #openttd
10:30:18  *** Zeknurn [] has joined #openttd
10:36:48  *** pugi [] has joined #openttd
10:43:59  *** mahmoud [] has joined #openttd
10:48:46  *** theholyduck [] has joined #openttd
10:52:54  *** Biolunar [] has joined #openttd
11:10:05  *** Pikka [] has joined #openttd
11:10:11  <Pikka> good day sirs
11:12:23  <Eddi|zuHause> mondays are never good...
11:12:52  <Pikka> what, never?
11:13:08  <Pikka> gentlemen, is 1.2 possibly coming out before april 1st? :o
11:13:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it's carneval monday, that's like as bad as it can get...
11:14:31  <Eddi|zuHause>
11:14:35  <Ammler> Pikka: you have it already since christmas
11:16:20  <Pikka> the betas and release candidates, yes
11:16:49  <Pikka> I only want to know because I'm aiming to have stuff done by the release :)
11:18:10  <Eddi|zuHause> by my experience, releases are almost never early... :p
11:18:34  <Pikka> true
11:18:43  <Pikka> but april 1st is only an unofficial date
11:18:44  <peter1138> past history suggests it might be 1st of april :p
11:18:49  <Pikka> yes
11:18:53  * peter1138 doesn't know, however
11:19:01  <Pikka> an RC so early has me spooked though :)
11:19:41  <Eddi|zuHause> why? if you think 3 RCs and an RC every 2 weeks...
11:20:02  <Pikka> I guess so Eddi
11:22:48  <peter1138> any plans for 32bpp/ez? ;p
11:22:55  <peter1138> (guessing not)
11:23:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i have plans for ez, but my artists doesn't seem to agree :p
11:28:05  <peter1138> ah cool, i haven't read geektoo's discovery yet :p
11:28:22  <planetmaker> Pikka: it's the usual time
11:28:36  <planetmaker> and hello :-)
11:30:03  <peter1138> nice for rubidium to come up with a script to do the magic work :)
11:30:13  <peter1138> s/for/of/
11:30:30  <peter1138> yeah "it's all wasted" well no, the sprites are still there
11:33:08  <planetmaker> :-)
11:33:28  <planetmaker> finally. Also RC1 announced
11:34:53  <peter1138> the performance penalty for trying to load pngs was quite severe. it would be even worse with lots of pngs available...
11:34:59  <peter1138> pom te pom
11:36:33  <planetmaker> I tried to mention it. Maybe you can elaborate on that more, petern
11:47:18  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: your post fails to link to the title game competition
11:47:42  <planetmaker> hm :-) I should change that. Thanks
12:08:30  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
12:18:11  <Pikka> hmm
12:19:06  <Pikka> that said, there are a few var 98 checks I'd have to get rid of in ukrs2 if that variable could change in unpredictable ways...
12:21:34  *** Pikka [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:21:56  *** Pikka [] has joined #openttd
12:23:19  <andythenorth> ooh
12:23:19  <andythenorth> it's pikka
12:23:19  <andythenorth> :o
12:23:28  <Pikka> was, has been, will be again!
12:23:37  <Pikka> bonjour herr le north
12:24:44  <planetmaker> apropos: how's you new life? :-)
12:25:05  <Pikka> whose new life?
12:25:11  <planetmaker> yours ;-)
12:25:15  <andythenorth> are you still on the buses?
12:25:23  <Pikka> quit last week andy
12:26:27  <Pikka> I'm on holiday all next month trying to get grfs finished for 1.2.0, then I'll be getting into writing and graphicing and generally trying to make a living off my wits. :)
12:28:44  <Pikka> working on UKRS at the moment, getting quite a bit done but unfortunately I'm thinking of more stuff to add at about the same rate as I'm adding stuff. :D
12:28:54  <Pikka> I like your procedurally generated truck trailers andy
12:32:18  *** andythenorth is now known as Guest3241
12:32:18  *** andythenorth_ [~Andy@] has joined #openttd
12:32:18  *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth
12:32:33  <Pikka> wb andy
12:32:50  <andythenorth> :)
12:32:57  * andythenorth procedurally generates irc
12:33:10  <Pikka> how painful
12:33:18  *** Guest3241 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:33:40  <andythenorth> there's medication available I'm told
12:34:03  <Pikka> if you know who to ask
12:34:14  <Pikka> speaking of medication
12:34:30  <Pikka> tea then laphroaig :)
12:35:08  <andythenorth> Pikka: where in the world are you?
12:36:10  <Pikka> where in the world?  brisbane, as usual
12:38:02  <Pikka> por why?
12:38:18  <andythenorth> you seem to gad about occasionally ;)
12:38:22  <andythenorth> adventurously
12:39:11  <Pikka> well
12:39:45  <Pikka> occasionally
12:40:16  <Pikka> hopefully more so in the future, if I can make a bit of money and am no longer tied down by working for the man
12:40:51  <Pikka> the man and his buses
12:41:09  * andythenorth is in the position of being the man
12:41:12  <andythenorth> so can't stop working for him
12:42:08  * andythenorth wishes the man would give him more time to code pixels
12:42:08  <andythenorth> :P
12:42:32  <Pikka> darn
12:43:42  <Pikka> so these bandits
12:44:03  <Pikka> they're just trucks, right?  rigids too?  going back how far?
12:44:14  * Pikka would like to resurrect HOVS some time
12:44:27  <Pikka> you do the trucks, I'll do the buses and trams :}
12:44:47  <Elukka> <Eddi|zuHause> i have plans for ez, but my artists doesn't seem to agree :p
12:44:53  <Elukka> i think your artists first want to get some playable amount of vehicles drawn, and one of them is so terminally lazy he'd get nothing done if it took him even more time to draw a thing :p
12:45:33  <Eddi|zuHause> so... i played transport giant for 5 minutes, and i'm already totally annoyed
12:48:30  <andythenorth> Pikka: trucks from 1905, maybe earlier if I add steam trucks
12:49:22  <Pikka> groovy
12:49:50  <andythenorth> it's being drawn to Dan's NARVS scale (small)
12:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: for starters a closed wagon in white (for refrigerated) would be nice :)
12:50:15  <Pikka> :D
12:50:22  * Pikka will have to draw some buses
12:51:09  <Eddi|zuHause> what was wrong with HOVS actually? the last "secret" version i played seemed nice (although i probably haven't seen the later years)
12:51:10  <Pikka> after I draw all these darn trains D:
12:51:31  <Pikka> nothing was wrong with it Eddi
12:52:03  <Pikka> it's just old and mostly based on the original graphics.  It's very much in the spirit of UKRS1
12:52:33  <Pikka> oh, and the secret version didn't have any later years, that's what was wrong with it. :)
12:52:41  <Pikka> any trucks for later years, anyway
12:53:09  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
12:54:37  <andythenorth> I recently played with HOVS to inspire BANDIT design
12:54:38  <andythenorth> works ok
12:54:55  <andythenorth> Pikka: our man in canada is keen to do buses too
12:55:00  <andythenorth> he has an acronym :P
12:55:01  <andythenorth> COPS
12:55:18  <Pikka> :)
12:55:28  <Pikka> well, HOVS can be strictly UK-style
12:55:32  <andythenorth> BANDIT is multi-region btw
12:55:52  <Pikka> :D
12:56:08  <andythenorth> BANDIT will have parameters for north america, europe, australia/NZ, maybe others
12:56:30  <andythenorth> I'm hoping Dan / somebody will draw some truck cabs
12:56:39  <andythenorth> trailers will generate ok
12:57:13  <andythenorth> the BANDIT code will be easy to extend to buses
12:57:49  <Pikka> the generation code or the nfo/nml code?
12:57:59  <andythenorth> the nml templating
12:58:19  <andythenorth> articulated buses?  tick
12:58:26  <Pikka> neat :)
12:58:36  <andythenorth> buses that refit to have a cargo trailer?  tick (if wanted)
12:58:50  <Pikka> are you using my train graphics templates btw, or something else?
12:59:07  <andythenorth> someone made templates for the nml wiki
12:59:17  <Pikka> okay, I'll look into them for HOVS
12:59:24  <Pikka> we should coordinate on running/purchase costs?
12:59:27  * andythenorth has drunk the koolaid on nml now
12:59:35  <andythenorth> yarp
12:59:43  * Pikka hasn't and isn't likely to, but if you're coding that's fine with me
13:00:00  <andythenorth> I calculate costs, with the ability to manually over-ride for specific vehicles
13:01:03  <andythenorth> Pikka:
13:01:14  <andythenorth> it's python, but don't worry about that :)
13:03:07  *** andythenorth is now known as Guest3244
13:03:07  *** andythenorth_ [] has joined #openttd
13:03:07  *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth
13:03:21  <Pikka> he did it again
13:03:40  <andythenorth> switched wifi
13:03:40  <andythenorth> :P
13:04:02  <Pikka> calculating purely from HP? :P
13:04:13  <andythenorth> currently
13:04:20  <Pikka> I see :)
13:04:23  <andythenorth> could do more
13:04:27  <andythenorth> I was uninspired
13:04:36  <andythenorth> that sets the base run cost value
13:04:48  <andythenorth> that's the code in the build script
13:04:55  <andythenorth> I could do variable running costs too - with nml varaction 2 stuff
13:05:15  <andythenorth> 'base' is an unfortunate choice of word above :P
13:05:17  <Pikka> has some of my stuff in there
13:05:51  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
13:06:50  *** Brianetta [] has left #openttd []
13:07:00  <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: i started on that, might as well get it finished
13:07:02  <Elukka>
13:07:04  <Pikka> Brianetta we hardly knew you
13:07:09  <Elukka> btw
13:07:23  <Elukka> if we went 32bpp, we'd have a vastly easier time adding some more contrast to make them pop out a bit
13:07:51  <andythenorth> Elukka: you could generate that one :P
13:08:04  <andythenorth> might be more work than drawing it though....
13:08:44  <andythenorth> depends if you need a lot of fridge vans at different lengths, colours etc
13:08:58  <Pikka> andy: generate me a Gresley D49!
13:09:12  <andythenorth> yeah but no but
13:09:16  <Elukka> i do need to make a wagon that's pretty much this but a bit shorter
13:09:21  <Pikka> :D
13:09:46  <Elukka> i have no idea how to generate stuff though
13:09:53  <andythenorth> pikka if you only have <256 unique sequences of pixels in your image, they can be generated :P
13:09:58  <andythenorth> but it might be insane
13:10:10  *** Guest3244 [~Andy@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:11:20  <Elukka> for the most part i can deal with stuff like refrigerated variants just by replacing colors
13:11:55  <Elukka> the least painless method in photoshop that i've discovered is magic wand, contiguous unticked, click color to replace, brush over with new color
13:13:17  <Elukka> um. the most painless, least painless would be bad :P
13:13:22  <andythenorth> Elukka: how much recolouring do you have to do?
13:13:35  <andythenorth> recolouring is actually a more trivial thing to do than generating
13:13:40  <andythenorth> also...comping load sprites
13:13:54  <Elukka> a hell of a lot
13:14:00  <Elukka> most passenger wagons in particular have a bunch of variants
13:14:17  <andythenorth> with my method, you set up colour tables and tell the graphics generator to replace colours
13:14:53  <andythenorth> do you have stuff like yellow strip / no yellow stripe?
13:14:58  <andythenorth> (for first class)
13:15:55  <Elukka> yeah, later on
13:15:57  <Elukka>
13:16:03  <Elukka> currently more like that, see the upper two trains
13:18:14  <andythenorth> Elukka: that would be easy to do with the generator, *assuming* you don't use the brown anywhere else in the sprite
13:18:27  <andythenorth> although you can work around that by drawing in false colour, then generating all the liveries
13:18:42  <Elukka> i probably don't anyway
13:19:01  <andythenorth> you need to persuade Eddi|zuHause that he finds the pixel generator interesting :P
13:19:22  <Elukka> well he doesn't draw them :P
13:19:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the recolouring is probably the least of the problems...
13:20:22  <andythenorth> Elukka: those three wheel coaches could be procedurally generated
13:20:26  <andythenorth> they're a simple structure
13:20:55  <andythenorth> they're a good case
13:20:58  <andythenorth> the wagons and the lowest line of coaches would be bad cases
13:23:36  <Elukka> well it might be useful if you could just generate a starting point
13:23:40  <Elukka> and draw on top of that
13:23:49  <andythenorth> Elukka: you saw the carriage I generated?
13:23:58  <Elukka> i think so
13:24:05  <andythenorth>
13:24:13  <andythenorth> literally a few minutes effort
13:24:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in my mind it would work like this, you give an array for each length unit, i.e. a 5lu closed wagon would look like [(left_buffer,wall,flat_roof),(small_wheel,wall,flat_roof),(wall,flat_roof),(small_wheel,wall,flat_roof),(right_buffer,wall,braker_cab)]
13:25:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and then it creates the graphics from these components
13:25:15  <Elukka> that could be amazing
13:25:43  <Eddi|zuHause> it won't be particularly pretty, but it might be enough to be playable
13:26:02  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's roughly how it works
13:26:07  <andythenorth> the code is in the BANDIT repo
13:26:24  <andythenorth>
13:26:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i tried to look at it, but it didn't make any sense to me
13:26:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it's a little bit more atomic than your description
13:27:09  <andythenorth> although it could work your way
13:27:41  <andythenorth> abstracted, the principle is: for pixel x, y, colour: draw a sequence of pixels relative to x, y
13:27:55  <andythenorth> colour of new pixels is set per pixel
13:28:31  <andythenorth> this mistake I made is a nice illustration....
13:28:39  <Elukka> eddi, what's your stance on the 32bpp thing
13:28:57  *** cypher [] has joined #openttd
13:29:04  <andythenorth> ^^ the last row shows how load sprites are just a shift + recolour of the pattern on the floor
13:29:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: my stance is "make the sprites, we figure it out later
13:29:48  <Elukka> hmm, okay
13:29:56  <Elukka> every sprite would be a lot easier to do if i didn't have to worry about palettes
13:30:15  <Eddi|zuHause> do that, then.
13:30:15  <andythenorth> what's the palette issue?
13:30:33  <Elukka> it's limited!
13:30:43  <Elukka> i
13:30:49  <Elukka> *i'll start working with 32bpp, then
13:31:03  <Elukka> turning them into 8bpp would probably require a manual reworking, though
13:31:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: the more 32bpp sprites we have, the more pressure is for anyone actually implementing (new) 32bpp support in nml :p
13:31:47  <Elukka> heh
13:32:10  <Elukka> i'm also gonna recolor the prussian coaches to something more accurate, plus give them some more lighting
13:33:57  <andythenorth> meh
13:34:02  <andythenorth> not using the 8bpp palette is cheating :P
13:34:25  <Elukka> any file format rules for 32bpp sprites? or is it just a normal png
13:35:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's just another png
13:37:11  *** Pikka [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:42:06  *** roboboy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:54:52  <Eddi|zuHause> there doesn't seem to be an nml var to access var 0xFA (random bits)
13:57:02  *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:9cb5:2fd8:e7dd:5278] has joined #openttd
13:57:04  *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
13:57:04  <Eddi|zuHause> "7C    W    [TTDPatch] Index of the 'engine' (i.e. the first vehicle) of the consist" <-- this doesn't seem to be implemented in openttd. i understand that this should be the front of an articulated consist
13:57:24  <Eddi|zuHause> could be useful for var 61
13:58:30  <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe i'm interpreting this wrong
14:00:15  <Elukka> okay, 32bpp is worth it just for the ability to adjust colors however you like...
14:00:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: i have no idea how to do recolouring then, though
14:00:47  <Elukka> hmm
14:01:34  <Elukka> do we need recoloring for stuff other than hypothetical future company colors and cargos?
14:01:43  <Elukka> cargo would be easy enough to keep to the 8bpp palette if needed
14:02:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the current plan is only cargo, but in principle we can recolour on any condition and any part of the vehicle
14:02:57  <Eddi|zuHause> like make the door blue on wednesdays
14:04:20  <Elukka> :D
14:04:48  <Eddi|zuHause> one useful case for recolouring would be head/tail lights
14:07:26  *** RhamphMobile [] has joined #openttd
14:08:55  <RhamphMobile> I have no wired internet... yet somehow my phone on our wifi still works.
14:12:59  *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@] has joined #openttd
14:15:29  *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@] has left #openttd []
14:16:08  *** Rhamphoryncus [] has joined #openttd
14:20:31  *** RhamphMobile [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:21:11  <Eddi|zuHause> why is var 49 called "build_year" and not "build_date"?
14:24:12  <Rhamphoryncus> because peanuts.
14:26:28  <andythenorth> hysterical raisins of course
14:28:46  <Ammler> would it already be possible to make 32bpp grfs with nml, if you use grfcodec to encode the "nml-nfo"?
14:33:52  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Recolouring works by a separate paletted mask sprite. For each pixel that is recoloured, the blitter calcluates the brightness from the RGB value and modulates the looked-up palette colour with it.
14:35:01  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: so you can only recolour bright pixels with other bright pixels and dark pixels with other dark pixels, or what?
14:35:39  <michi_cc> The formula is pixel = max(r,g,b,) / 64.0f * palette_to_rgb(index)
14:36:28  <michi_cc> So a max brightness of 128 would double the brightness of the palette colour and 32 would half it.
14:37:11  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure i understand the impact of this...
14:37:46  <michi_cc> In reality it is a bit more complicated to avoid e.g. overflow of course.
14:38:58  *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
14:41:23  <andythenorth> that all sounds like 'ow'
14:41:24  <andythenorth> :)
14:41:39  * andythenorth will stick to recolouring at compile time :)
14:48:07  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Somehwat like
14:51:01  <michi_cc> Hmm, probably a bit more read like the updated image.
14:51:05  <michi_cc> s/read/red/
14:58:37  <appe> good afternoon, guurmans.
15:02:06  *** Elu [] has joined #openttd
15:03:10  <Belugas> hello
15:03:15  <dihedral> hello sir
15:03:33  <Belugas> good day to you, dihedral
15:05:34  *** Elukka [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
15:11:46  *** kkb110 [] has joined #openttd
15:12:50  *** Devroush [] has joined #openttd
15:26:44  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
15:26:47  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
15:27:50  *** Pikka [] has joined #openttd
15:28:08  *** lofejndif [] has joined #openttd
15:28:51  *** lofejndif [] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
15:29:47  *** lofejndif [] has joined #openttd
15:30:20  *** kkb110 [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
15:32:28  *** tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
15:32:49  *** lofejndif [] has quit []
15:33:19  *** lofejndif [] has joined #openttd
16:16:01  *** cypher [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:26:23  *** Jogio [] has joined #openttd
16:27:40  <Jogio> hello
16:28:42  <Rubidium> hi
16:28:54  <Jogio> is somebody here who has time to explain how I can use diff?
16:30:08  <Rubidium> I guess that depends on the actual question
16:30:42  <Jogio> Àhm I have no clue what I have to do to use it
16:31:48  *** lofejndif [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:31:55  <__ln__> but you are convinced you need to use it?
16:32:07  <Jogio> yes it would be easier
16:32:13  *** TWerkhoven [] has joined #openttd
16:32:18  <Jogio> I have about 10 files modified
16:32:51  <Jogio> but when I wrote here I realised I made a thinking error
16:32:52  <dihedral> if you use a version controll system (svn, git, hg, etc.) you can use svn diff, hg diff, git diff ...
16:33:07  <Jogio> i have diff here
16:33:20  <dihedral> diff itself compares 2 files
16:33:30  <dihedral> so you need the original files to compare against
16:33:40  <dihedral> what changes have you made?
16:34:10  <Jogio> my thinking error was i can use diff direct old modified openttd version with new unmodified version
16:34:40  <Rubidium> you can, but it's likely not going to give the wanted result
16:34:48  <Jogio> but I have to make a patch with modified and unmodified openttd version first, right?
16:34:58  <Rubidium> yes
16:35:17  <Jogio> yeah, maybe I can help myself
16:35:28  <Jogio> I will write if I have a question
16:35:41  <dihedral> checkout the source using svn or hg
16:35:48  <dihedral> that will make it easier for you
16:36:20  <Jogio> I have already zip file with source code
16:36:27  <dihedral> ...
16:37:01  <dihedral> if you use a version controll system, you can always see your changes, see what files you have changed, get the diff, update (by getting only the changes) and revert your changes
16:40:34  *** supermop [] has joined #openttd
16:45:19  <supermop> good morning
16:49:22  *** lofejndif [] has joined #openttd
16:53:04  <Jogio> good morning at this time sounds strange in europe
16:53:09  <Jogio> "_"
16:54:08  <dihedral> who says he/she is in europe? ;-)
16:59:25  <MNIM> Well, the majority of this channel's userbase is european, isn't it?
16:59:37  <MNIM> so to the question 'who' I would say 'statistics'
17:01:04  <supermop> maybe i am wishing you an ex post facto good morning
17:03:44  *** Elu is now known as Elukka
17:06:58  <Jogio> I wanted to make a joke here, but I don't know english word for "Beamter" :-)
17:17:31  <MNIM> Ehhh.
17:17:56  <MNIM> I would say 'bureacrat' though that isn't exactly the literal translation.
17:47:09  *** lofejndif [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:48:40  *** Pikka [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:56:17  *** valhallasw [~valhallas@] has joined #openttd
18:15:00  *** sla_ro|master [slaco@] has quit []
18:18:09  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
18:19:07  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
18:19:28  <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: so are changes like mine going to be ignored until after release?
18:19:50  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
18:19:57  *** Prof_Frink [] has joined #openttd
18:21:17  <Rhamphoryncus> I mean in terms of review.  I don't expect it to be applied right now.
18:21:52  <Rubidium> it's the thing that you just today put on flyspray, isn't it?
18:22:30  <Rhamphoryncus> last night, but yeah.
18:23:44  <Rubidium> then I'd not quite call it ignored yet
18:24:08  *** Phoenix_the_II [] has joined #openttd
18:24:29  <Rubidium> even then, 1.2 already branched off, so  it won't make 1.2 in any case
18:24:50  <Rhamphoryncus> No, of course not.  I'm more thinking about scale here.  A week would be good normally.  With a release imminent I'd expect a couple more weeks on that, or more.
18:25:18  <Rubidium> if only there was enough time
18:25:50  <Rhamphoryncus> As long as there's good communication I can wait a long time ;)
18:26:55  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:26:56  *** peteris [~peteris@] has joined #openttd
18:29:57  *** peteris is now known as pecisk_latvia
18:33:23  <Rubidium> does this implicitly sync vehicles in an order list?
18:34:43  <Rubidium> or are you, if a vehicle is late enough move the departure back by <length of timetable>/<number of vehicles>?
18:35:05  <Rubidium> as in that case you'll eventually end up with al vehicles going at the same time
18:35:17  <Rubidium> or at least some sort of clumping together
18:36:55  *** Pixa [~pixa@] has joined #openttd
18:41:37  *** LordPixaII [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:41:37  *** pugi [] has quit []
18:41:39  <appe> duders
18:41:57  <appe> im using C# in ASP.NET, and im trying to find and replace parts of a string.
18:42:28  <appe> the string might contain "number" (as in "300"), or "numberkr" (as in "300kr").
18:42:38  <appe> i wish to add "kr" to every string that doesnt already have it.
18:42:42  <appe> any tip? :)
18:49:00  <valhallasw> appe: String.EndsWith, maybe .ParseInt?
19:08:44  *** FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
19:12:58  <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: vehicle order doesn't matter.  Each order independently tracks departures and hands them out in a first-come-first-serve basis
19:13:38  *** kkb110 [] has joined #openttd
19:14:00  <Rhamphoryncus> The only interaction is they derive their timing from the orderlist
19:19:32  *** LordAro [] has joined #openttd
19:21:47  *** Devroush [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:23:33  *** DDR [] has joined #openttd
19:26:45  <Jogio> the guy with the diff question is back and I have to say I succeded (after some hunk errors because of false paths I entered)
19:30:43  <Terkhen> hello
19:30:58  <dihedral> the guy who advised using a version control system is also here :-P
19:32:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23972 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt latvian.txt ukrainian.txt unfinished/urdu.txt):
19:32:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:32:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 54 changes by junho2813, telk5093
19:32:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 45 changes by Parastais
19:32:52  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 11 changes by edd_k
19:32:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: urdu - 194 changes by haider
19:34:06  *** LordPixaII [] has joined #openttd
19:36:39  *** Devroush [~dennis@] has joined #openttd
19:37:29  *** Pixa [~pixa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:40:47  <LordAro> also, why are grfcodec binaries not published to
19:41:11  <LordAro> ok, perhaps they have to go through, but perhaps a message or something about where they are?
19:41:39  <appe> valhallasw: ill try endswith.
19:43:54  *** pecisk_latvia is now known as pecisk_lv
19:44:27  *** Pixa [~pixa@] has joined #openttd
19:44:42  *** Devroush [~dennis@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:47:45  *** cypher [] has joined #openttd
19:47:55  *** rudolfs_lv [~rudolfs@] has joined #openttd
19:48:07  *** rudolfs_lv [~rudolfs@] has left #openttd []
19:48:37  *** LordPixaII [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:53:07  *** kkb110 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:54:41  <Rubidium> LordAro: what's wrong with the link on e.g. ?
19:55:37  <Rubidium> LordAro: mostly because grfcodec was compiled by the CF before it was on openttdcoop
19:56:27  <Rubidium> and it never made sense to move it
20:01:48  <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: also your patch doesn't apply to head and you specific no version and I can't be bothered to try to figure out what revision to apply it to
20:02:22  *** Zuu [] has joined #openttd
20:03:18  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
20:05:02  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
20:05:47  <Wolf01> oddink
20:06:28  <__ln__> yakshemash
20:07:05  <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: fair enough.  I'll update it.
20:09:11  <andythenorth> bonsoir
20:09:28  <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: thanks for looking btw
20:09:59  <Rubidium> Wolf01: adamink
20:16:07  <LordAro> gah, my previous question was supposed to be on #openttdcoop.devzone - stupid mouse scroll wheel :)
20:16:33  <LordAro> Rubidium: the problem is htp:// appears to be empty
20:16:52  <LordAro> *
20:17:35  *** JVassie [~James@] has joined #openttd
20:17:50  <Rubidium> LordAro: blame Ammler for that ;)
20:18:20  <LordAro> hence why it was supposed to be in devzone channel :)
20:20:07  <Ammler> LordAro: where do you get the url to bundles?
20:21:01  <LordAro> not from anywhere else, it's just what i use to find the bundles (or did i misunderstand the question?)
20:21:53  <Ammler> no, I wonder, why you get the idea, that grfcodec should be there
20:22:27  <andythenorth> it is there isn't it?
20:23:03  <Ammler> it never was afaik, only nightlies we use for building the newgrfs there
20:24:03  <Ammler> andythenorth: speaking about publishing binaries on bundles, not developing on DevZone
20:25:49  <Ammler> Rubidium: blame me for?
20:26:52  <Ammler> shall we not publish those nightlies?
20:27:27  <LordAro> i still think there should be  amessage about where the binaries actually are - took me a while to figure it out :)
20:27:40  <Ammler> yes, where should be that message?
20:28:19  <Ammler> on the homepage of grfcodec, it is quite clear, isn't?
20:28:55  <Rubidium> Ammler: it might not have been the wisest decision to keep binaries and logs that are purely for your compiler in the public "here are all the packaged binaries" section of the "website" (i.e.
20:30:20  <Ammler> well, I can redirect that path to as it isn't needed for http
20:31:21  <Ammler> hmm, right now, I am not able to ssh, I will create a ticket... :-)
20:39:48  *** andythenorth is now known as Guest3280
20:39:48  *** Guest3280 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:39:48  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
20:42:01  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:42:15  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
20:46:38  *** andythenorth is now known as Guest3282
20:46:38  *** Guest3282 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:46:38  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
20:46:45  *** kkb110 [] has joined #openttd
20:47:59  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:48:04  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
20:55:55  *** TWerkhoven [] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into]
20:57:27  *** pugi [] has joined #openttd
21:08:20  *** Jogio [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
21:08:32  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
21:08:50  *** Pixa [~pixa@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:09:03  *** Pixa [~pixa@] has joined #openttd
21:20:31  *** pecisk_lv [~peteris@] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
21:21:08  *** kkb110 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:21:09  *** wica [] has joined #openttd
21:21:15  <wica> Hi
21:21:49  <Rubidium> hello
21:21:50  <wica> I'm running 1.2.0-beta4, and my online content stays empty
21:22:06  <wica> where do I start to search the problem?
21:22:28  <wica> and btw, my internet connection is working :)
21:22:42  <Rubidium> can you reach
21:22:51  <wica> Yep
21:22:51  <Rubidium> did the online content ever work?
21:23:04  *** pecisk_lv [~peteris@] has joined #openttd
21:23:17  *** mahmoud [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:23:22  <wica> It did, but I checked it a long time ago
21:23:39  <Rubidium> does your OS by any chance resolve IPv6 addresses, but without an actual IPv6 connection?
21:23:40  <wica> Last time, was I think 1 year ago
21:23:55  <wica> Thnx, that is to probloem
21:23:56  <Rubidium> as the server is currently working just fine for me
21:24:09  <wica> ipv6 resolving is the problem
21:24:21  <wica> stupid off my to forget :)
21:25:29  <wica> btw, great to hear that openttd has IPv6 support
21:26:19  *** mahmoud [] has joined #openttd
21:28:15  <Rubidium> OpenTTD already has IPv6 support for over 1.5 million minutes ;)
21:28:53  <Rubidium> (or nearly 150 weeks)
21:38:30  *** lmergen [] has joined #openttd
21:41:28  <Terkhen> :)
21:45:41  <appe> ipv6 support measured in ..time?
21:45:51  <appe> what am i missing.
21:54:43  *** krinn [] has joined #openttd
21:56:19  <krinn> hi guys, i have an AIList and when i put elements in it (in random order), but when i foreach the list i see they are sort by value already, openttd always ressort an AIList when new item is add ?
21:58:07  <andythenorth> procedural tank trailer:
21:58:40  <Yexo> krinn: yes, that's by design
21:59:10  <krinn> ah, doesn't help me in my case so
21:59:38  <Zuu> You can use an item valuator or just AIList.AddItem(item, item);
21:59:44  <Yexo> use a simple list if you want to keep your original order
21:59:48  <krinn> and it's a bit time consuming to ressort list just because a item is add no ? i mean we have a function to ask a sort already
22:00:09  <andythenorth> hmm
22:00:10  <andythenorth>
22:00:13  <Yexo> yes, the current implementation is not very efficient
22:00:20  <andythenorth> ^^ for x, x = -1 :P
22:00:22  <andythenorth> bah
22:00:23  <krinn> i must use AIList, because i wish the value sort but after then i just wish keep the order
22:00:41  <Yexo> however it's hard to improve the code while keeping the current behavior is hard
22:00:51  <Zuu> You can sort squirrel lists too.
22:01:08  <Yexo> if the "keep list sorted when elements are added"-requirement can be dropped things become a lot easier already
22:01:22  <krinn> you know a bit like wishing add 90 30 40 i then set their value to 0 2 1 -> sorting them and now reusing their value with their real task while the list is sort as 90 40 30
22:01:25  <Zuu> I have a list implementation myself as in ScoreList in SuperLib from the very old times when NoAI was just released.
22:01:38  <Yexo> I might just do that for openttd 1.3
22:02:21  <krinn> not only that but adding 1000 elements to an AIList imply 1000 sorting no ?
22:02:38  <Yexo> adding an element to a sorted list is not as slow as a complete resort
22:02:50  <Yexo> not even close to it
22:03:16  <krinn> yep, but you are doing it 1 time for the sort, and 1000 time for the "add to already sort list"
22:03:58  <Yexo> but "add to sorted list" can be O(sqrt N) (it probably is O(N) though), which is much better than the O(N * sqrt N) you'd need for resorting every time
22:04:48  <andythenorth> hmm
22:05:02  * andythenorth was wondering if the tank trailer was too hard for procedural drawing
22:05:15  <andythenorth> but I can change the colours by adding one entry to a dict
22:05:18  <andythenorth> and it works :)
22:05:34  <krinn> i don't know, but the math seems weakned by logic there
22:05:34  <supermop> looks ok
22:08:21  <Zuu> After learning CluelssPlus how to build industry airports, I need to teach it some ROI calculations as it ended up with some expansive low profit coal routes.
22:08:59  <andythenorth> silver, 1cc, black, 2cc:
22:09:35  <MNIM> I like how it looks
22:09:48  *** Xrufuian [] has joined #openttd
22:09:50  <supermop> cool
22:10:16  <supermop> never seen a black tank on a truck though, only train cars
22:10:36  <supermop> would suggest white or silver with a cc stripe
22:11:00  <MNIM> ....Hmmmh. I've got one of the most expansive rail networks Ive ever made, spanning over the full 1024 tiles wide map, yet Im still using almost fourty year old trains.
22:11:12  <MNIM> Supermop: I have.
22:11:12  <andythenorth> let's see
22:12:06  *** Osai [~Osai@] has left #openttd []
22:13:10  <MNIM> Hmmmh. One of the main issues with black tanks is that they absorb heat like mad - not very desirable in most situations with liquid transport.
22:14:04  <MNIM> since most liquids that are transported in a tanker are either volatile or prone to evaporate and create high pressures when being heated up by a sun-lit black tank
22:14:17  <MNIM> or they go bad, like milk
22:17:40  <dihedral> Rhamphoryncus, #if 0 <- in your patch?
22:18:29  <Zuu> krinn: Do you have any new AI developments going on?
22:20:03  <andythenorth>
22:20:47  <andythenorth> I nearly gave up on coding the tankers - glad I didn't :D
22:21:00  <andythenorth> it would have been no easier to draw them
22:21:17  <andythenorth> as coding them basically involves copying the pixel values for a section into code
22:22:03  <krinn> Zuu, yes dev was stall because of the big bug that let openttd crash, it was then hard to get, and i kinda lost faith
22:22:30  <krinn> Zuu, but it's now fix, so the moral is back
22:22:43  *** lmergen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:22:51  <andythenorth> this is the input file for the tanker:
22:23:00  <Zuu> Which bug was it? The sort function?
22:23:07  <andythenorth> also the same input  for flatbeds etc ;)
22:23:38  <krinn> no, that's not a bug, kinda unexpected feature for me, i will try to find the # in the bug report wait a sec
22:23:41  <Zuu> Great you're back on track :-)
22:24:04  *** lofejndif [] has joined #openttd
22:24:09  <krinn>
22:24:30  <krinn> a stupid recursive call, the vm was going OOM and openttd crash
22:24:39  <Zuu> The squirrel sort had a problem that you could hang OpenTTD with a badly written comparator function.
22:25:12  <dihedral> krinn, it's fixed ...
22:25:43  <krinn> and i was stuck as i couldn't get any ouput from the ai (i know don't ask me why i didn't think before to run it in a console to get the output)
22:26:22  <krinn> dihedral, yep it should, but the issue with my AI trigger the bug and it was then hard to catch what was doing it
22:27:16  <Zuu> Whenever I succed to crash OpenTTD with an AI or GameScript I compile OpenTTD myself and run it from a debugger (Visual Studio) so that I can see the callstack of OpenTTD when it crashes to perhaps get an idea what the problem is. Of course I submit a bug report also, if I manage to crash OpenTTD.
22:27:20  <krinn> crash.log should record last message from AI
22:28:18  <krinn> lol zuu, it was easier for me (that's why i'm a bit ashame) i just have to run it in the console, so once crash i was back to the console and i could scroll up the buffer to see my last ai messages
22:28:56  <Yexo> as long as you report the crash on it's fine :)
22:29:15  <Yexo> extra investigation like Zuu does is of course greatly appreciated, but I'd vastly prefer feedback without it then no feedback at all
22:29:54  <krinn> well, once i find the bad recursion in my AI the problem for openttd was easier to find no ?
22:30:03  <Yexo> yep
22:30:43  <Yexo> (or rather: most likely. I didn't actually see that bug until just now)
22:31:27  <Zuu> But probably it did. Because a problem with stack overflows is that they usually make the callstack useless if you look at it when the debugger auto-kicks in as it is too late.
22:32:00  <Zuu> It helps to have an idea when you want to start looking at the callstack.
22:32:10  <Rubidium> having a reliable crash/reproduction is most important; only once I figured out under which circumstances it crashed I could see the call stack and such
22:32:17  <krinn> well, it was a stupid bug, but it's always good as someone might have use it to DOS some openttd server or anything
22:32:57  <krinn> specially with the new NoGo framework that should also be affect
22:32:57  <dihedral> by needing the admin to install an ai
22:33:00  <Rubidium> krinn: luckily it has to be initiated by the server owner (or someone with rcon password)
22:33:24  <krinn> with NoGo, you can do it nasty and have the admin do the task for you
22:34:11  <krinn> generally except (belgium trojan), people avoid to name their trojan as "trojan-thing" "crash-your-game"... :)
22:34:24  <Zuu> The server owner still have to select the NoGo, unless triggered via a scenario/savegame
22:34:39  <dihedral> which the server owner will only do once :P
22:35:35  <krinn> well, for me it was running yearly, but it would be harder if trigger by date or every 10 years to catch it
22:36:17  <krinn> anyway you can imagine how bad my mood was that my AI let openttd crash :/
22:36:56  <Zuu> See it the other way, you found a bug that is now ironed out.
22:36:57  * Rubidium remembers a desync that'd only trigger after ~20 game years
22:37:28  <Rubidium> which means you needed to be connected for >5 hours to be "egligable" to desync
22:37:50  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: need tank wagons?
22:37:52  <andythenorth> :)
22:37:57  <krinn> well, one could have made it in a nogo script trigger by even by a player to crash the server
22:37:58  <dihedral> which can be easily done for some players, Rubidium :-D
22:38:29  * andythenorth ponders
22:38:35  <krinn> i mean put 3 trees at pos X --> trigger the bug... dos by a player, and the server owner could run it 10000 years without trigger it himself
22:38:38  <dihedral> krinn, of course, but still, the NoGo script has to be installed by the admin, and then he will never do it again ;-)
22:39:02  <andythenorth> hmm....gestalts could be shared around
22:39:08  <krinn> dihedral, he must catch it first :P
22:39:23  <andythenorth> that means anyone could create an input png and generate vehicles of type x :P
22:39:32  <krinn> and without reviewing the nogo code himself, he certainly won't
22:39:33  <Zuu> and it still only affects the server, not the clients (other than them loosing their game)
22:39:34  <Yexo> krinn: his server crashes: crashlog point to NoGo code: don't use the last-most script anymore
22:39:52  <dihedral> and then then players stop playing there too
22:40:33  <Yexo> a few reports in the forum about one particular NoGo script: somebody will investigate and might find the cause
22:40:36  <dihedral> + a dozen of open threads in the forums and bug reports until the message spreads
22:40:42  <dihedral> :-D
22:40:47  <krinn> :D
22:40:49  <dihedral> high five Yexo
22:40:55  <Yexo> :)
22:41:09  <Yexo> good night :)
22:41:14  <krinn> well really few bug report as it need a trigger the maker only knows
22:41:16  <Zuu> Night Yexo
22:41:28  * dihedral is of to bed, good night gents
22:41:36  <dihedral> ... Yexo this is getting scary
22:41:39  <krinn> you might see "i have thebug v 1" too in my server and it is runing it for 3 month without crashing...
22:41:56  <krinn> nigth dihedral
22:42:13  <Zuu> Night dihedral
22:46:43  *** pjpe [] has joined #openttd
22:50:58  * andythenorth is quitting whilst winning
22:51:13  <andythenorth> otherwise I get no sleep :P
22:53:28  <Terkhen> good night
22:53:43  <krinn> going too, good night all
22:53:51  *** krinn [] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
22:54:35  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: need tank wagons? <-- plenty :)
22:55:23  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: might be able to help with that...
22:58:13  <andythenorth> but first....sleeping :)
22:59:33  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
23:05:06  *** Pixa [~pixa@] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
23:05:27  *** Pixa [~pixa@] has joined #openttd
23:12:11  *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@] has joined #openttd
23:17:11  *** valhalla2w [~valhallas@] has joined #openttd
23:18:16  *** valhallasw [~valhallas@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:20:21  *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:25:10  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:25:23  *** LordAro [] has quit [Quit: "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."]
23:34:59  *** lofejndif [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:44:40  <frosch123> night
23:44:43  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:46:49  *** cypher [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:50:05  *** TWerkhoven[l] [] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into]
23:53:26  *** FLHerne [] has left #openttd []
23:54:11  *** dfox [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:58:54  *** dfox [] has joined #openttd

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk