Log for #openttd on 24th February 2012:
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01:13:30  <Demonen> Hi all
01:13:56  <Demonen> When I'm in a multiplayer game, will autorenew happen even if I'm not connected?
01:15:29  <Demonen> In 1.1.5, that is
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04:12:55  <Rhamphoryncus> mmm logic train :D
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07:43:54  <andythenorth> mornings
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09:57:54  <Demonen> In 1.1.5, when I'm in a multiplayer game, will autorenew happen even if I'm not connected?
10:00:33  <planetmaker> once issued as order: yes
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10:14:18  <Demonen> issued as order?  I set it in my (client?) options.
10:14:29  <Demonen> Is that synched to server?
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10:17:19  <Eddi|nichZuHause> i have a feeling hd problems get worse the longer you diagnose them
10:18:36  <Eddi|nichZuHause> it's now at "system directory <something> is broken or missing, please boot from install-cd in the rescue mode"
10:20:38  <Demonen> Of course it gets worse
10:20:56  <Demonen> If it's a physical problem it can only get worse.  HDDs don't grow back :-D
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10:25:52  <Ammler> :-)
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10:37:58  <__ln__> Demonen: yes they do.
10:41:16  <Demonen> __ln__: Excellent, thank you.
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10:58:25  <K0L3C> Hello!
10:59:54  <planetmaker> ollaH
11:01:09  <andythenorth> o/
11:06:42  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: since I know you can make vehicle sets I've got a stupid request for you: speed strip wagon.  Very short, carries nothing.  Only purpose is to make a train go around curves faster.
11:07:19  * Rhamphoryncus emphasizes the "stupid"
11:07:22  <planetmaker> he has no single train set. And that requires deep integration within a trainset
11:07:29  <planetmaker> and yes: stupid ;-)
11:07:53  <planetmaker> as what you request is mostly - technically - an engine property. If at all.
11:08:05  <planetmaker> the curve speed limit is also a track property...
11:08:14  <Rhamphoryncus> No, it requires nothing except a very short wagon
11:08:16  <planetmaker> thus .. it won't quite work anyway
11:08:30  <planetmaker> and how do you think that works technically?
11:08:32  <Rhamphoryncus> Curve length is counted in wagons, so sticking super short wagons in your train will make the curve longer
11:08:41  <planetmaker> as in nml / nfo / grf specs?
11:09:25  <Rhamphoryncus> hmm?
11:09:37  <planetmaker> hm... number of wagons between bends... maybe
11:09:45  <peter1138> yeah that curve length thing needs to change
11:10:06  <Rhamphoryncus> That's what I said.  Curve length is counted in wagons
11:10:26  <peter1138> just needs Somebody™ to do it
11:11:31  <Rhamphoryncus> Making it incorporate wagon length would "fix" it, but I dislike the whole mechanic.  If it was separate from realistic acceleration I'd turn it off.
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11:12:38  <peter1138> yeah, we like trains travelling at 250mph+ around tight bends :D
11:12:54  <peter1138> (why is it dependent on train length at all?)
11:14:24  <planetmaker> in order to compensate for the insane scale probably
11:14:59  <Rhamphoryncus> Problem is after a certain length it becomes a hard cap (stops going up), which means certain speeds of trains can NEVER maintain speed around a curve.. unless you bypass it by making them short enough to never count as on a curve
11:15:24  <Rhamphoryncus> Counting the orientation of the wagons is just a really cheap way to determine if a train is turning
11:17:41  <Rhamphoryncus> Fixing it would require something like.. a look-ahead pathfinder that counts through X number of tiles and path-allocates them, even for block signals.  That path could then be used to count corners even for really short trains
11:18:22  <Rhamphoryncus> Then change the scale so the speeds go up at predetermined thresholds.. and finally, adopt nutracks to let you upgrade as years go on
11:19:37  <Rhamphoryncus> Only one of those is easy/likely :P
11:23:22  <Rhamphoryncus> The really issue with the mechanic is that, without nutracks, it boils down to either building correctly (wide turns, no slowdown) or incorrectly (slowdown).  There's nothing to upgrade as years go by, so using small curves early on (when trains are too slow to trigger it) is just making more work for yourself later
11:24:15  <planetmaker> so introducing high-speed sharp-corner trains makes for even less work. Sounds... like a good improvement ;-)
11:24:38  <planetmaker> and would remove the last bit for needing proper building. We should also enable again 90° turns
11:25:09  <planetmaker> so indeed I totally see no issue with that. Thus the current behaviour is even realistic
11:25:14  <Rhamphoryncus> No, I don't mind having a certain minimum curve size
11:25:22  <planetmaker> slow, old trains can go around sharper bends unharmed than new high-speed ones
11:25:30  <planetmaker> it's one of the reasons to build new tracks
11:27:06  <Rhamphoryncus> Why not do it right in the first place?  There's nothing stopping you.
11:27:39  <Rhamphoryncus> Maybe waiting for town rating to climb enough to bulldoze buildings that are in the way
11:28:33  <planetmaker> of course you can do it right in the first place. So what?
11:28:51  <Rhamphoryncus> So why make extra work for yourself?
11:29:59  <planetmaker> I don't. But where's exactly your issue now?
11:30:55  <Rhamphoryncus> The aggravating issue is that certain trains just can't be built for.  No curve will handle a long, fast train.
11:31:12  <planetmaker> of course it will
11:32:01  <Rhamphoryncus> 20 tile lev4.  What curve is required?
11:32:20  <planetmaker> 8-tile
11:32:41  <Rhamphoryncus> 6 is the cap
11:33:46  <planetmaker> well. Build two trains. 20 tiles is too long anyway ;-)
11:33:58  <planetmaker> it's a train longer than an average-sized town
11:34:29  <planetmaker> or build proper tracks which reduce that penalty
11:34:40  <planetmaker> of course such track set doesn't exist
11:34:46  <Rhamphoryncus> 2 trains, 10 tiles each, again hits the cap
11:35:27  <planetmaker> you're speaking of some kind of cap while not making clear what you cap and where and how :-)
11:35:49  <planetmaker> 10-tile trains hit no cap on my tracks. Maybe I use 10-tile curves then. So what?
11:36:36  <Rhamphoryncus> The formula used is 231-(13-X)**2, where X is the number of wagons on the curve and is capped at 12.  The limit is then doubled for maglev
11:37:57  <Rhamphoryncus> So 13 wagons is the maximum
11:38:04  <planetmaker> for what?
11:38:30  <Rhamphoryncus> to not be slowed by a curve
11:38:43  <planetmaker> what curve?
11:38:51  <planetmaker> A single curve never slows down
11:38:59  <planetmaker> an s-curve never slows down
11:39:14  <planetmaker> a double-curve in the same direction where the train covers both: that will slow down
11:39:15  <Rhamphoryncus> A curve is two turns.  s-curves are special cased
11:39:32  <planetmaker> generally it's two within the train length in the same direction
11:39:47  <Rhamphoryncus> The game doesn't support hills, bridges, or tunnels with diagonal track, so you HAVE to use a "double curve"
11:39:52  <planetmaker> And I see really no issue to require 7-tile curves for a 600 km/h maglev train (=14 wagons)
11:40:15  <planetmaker> why do I have to use a double curve for that reason?
11:40:24  <planetmaker> Build properly and you don't
11:40:32  <planetmaker> Proper rail junktions *need* space
11:40:35  <Rhamphoryncus> You don't have to turn the track?
11:40:48  <Rhamphoryncus> The game supports mammoth trains and I'd like to use them
11:41:04  <planetmaker> then do that
11:41:12  <MNIM> muh, I usually use a five-minimum curve (as my most common trains are five tiles long) but I also frequently use 14-long freight trains
11:41:23  <Rhamphoryncus> But make sure I pick slow engines?
11:41:53  <planetmaker> No, pick fast engines. But build properly. Or accept speed penalty for tight corners.
11:42:17  <Rhamphoryncus> Explain how to avoid curves
11:43:40  <planetmaker> I said "build properly". Not "avoid curves"
11:43:54  <planetmaker> Not the difference. Read the wikis on building about it
11:44:03  <planetmaker> *Note
11:44:25  <Rhamphoryncus> You'll have to be more specific
11:45:08  <planetmaker> nope, I don't :-)
11:45:21  <planetmaker> allow yourself to take space
11:45:46  <planetmaker> if you want ueber-long trains, you got to build ueber-gigantic smooth curves then at 600 km/h
11:45:54  <Rhamphoryncus> Station A is in one corner.  Station B is in the opposite corner.  How do I do it?
11:46:07  <Rhamphoryncus> Bulldoze the land to have 64-tile curves?
11:46:09  <planetmaker> One straight track. Point to point. Done.
11:46:31  <Rhamphoryncus> Bulldoze half the map.. I did say opposite corner
11:46:37  <planetmaker> I don't say bulldoze
11:46:41  <planetmaker> Slopes are no issue
11:46:48  <planetmaker> Or build tunnels
11:46:53  <planetmaker> or bridges
11:47:22  <Rhamphoryncus> opposite..
11:47:39  <planetmaker> you're actiong at least 10 levels more stupid than you are... C'mon!
11:47:51  <Rhamphoryncus> One at game coordinates 0,0, the other at 2000,2000
11:48:06  <Rhamphoryncus> Same to you
11:48:26  <K0L3C> I sense that something bad will happen.
11:48:28  <Rhamphoryncus> You cannot go up hills, build tunnels, or build bridges in a straight line
11:48:46  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, you don't need to build diagonally the whole way...
11:48:57  <Rhamphoryncus> No, you need to use curves
11:48:59  <planetmaker> and you may use s-bends. So what?!
11:53:53  <K0L3C> What is this about exactly? :S
11:54:32  <planetmaker> it's about "it's too difficult to get a 64-tile train travel without slow-downs due to curves"
11:54:43  <planetmaker> My point is: yes, it's difficult but feasible
11:54:51  <planetmaker> And it's good that it's difficult
11:55:03  <Rhamphoryncus> It's an inane penalty for using long fast trains
11:55:14  <Rhamphoryncus> And a penalty you avoid 99% of the time by using tiny trains
11:55:31  <Chris_Booth> Rhamphoryncus: its a penalty for using fast long trains
11:55:38  <Chris_Booth> when do you need 1 64 tile trains?
11:55:54  <Rhamphoryncus> Chris_Booth: it's a game.  I'd like to play with the features it provides
11:56:17  <planetmaker> then please do. It provides the feature: long trains need great care and even more space when they shall travel fast
11:56:34  <planetmaker> small trains need smaller curves. Great. Sounds good. Sounds fun. sounds balanced. Sounds realistic
11:56:34  <Chris_Booth> Rhamphoryncus: ^
11:56:36  <planetmaker> All at once
11:57:34  <Rhamphoryncus> Why does speed even scale with curve length?  Just drop a train to 75% max speed if it's ever on a curve
11:58:03  <Chris_Booth> Rhamphoryncus: change the acceleration model
11:58:25  <Chris_Booth> but if you look at REAL trains they don't have to slow on curves
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11:58:30  <Chris_Booth> if the curve is long enough
11:59:11  <Chris_Booth> you can use tilting trains that have a 20% curve speed advantage
12:00:09  <Rhamphoryncus> Gentle curves help, so do higher quality tracks (which have advanced drastically over the decades).  Curves have some limit, but mostly due to coupling, and that's fixed by using distributed power units
12:00:55  <Chris_Booth> then what is the issue?
12:01:14  <Rhamphoryncus> My comments apply to real life
12:01:42  <Rhamphoryncus> In game there are no such things.  More than 13 wagons and there's a hard speed limit
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12:04:54  <Chris_Booth> no there is not
12:05:15  <K0L3C> Rhamphoryncus, what trains are you using?
12:05:34  <Rhamphoryncus> K0L3C: atm I'm playing with a bog standard lev4
12:05:42  <K0L3C> Chimera?
12:05:51  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
12:05:54  <Chris_Booth> It sounds like you need a) more power, b) longer curves, or c)both
12:06:07  <K0L3C> Isn't that actually a suicide to use 62 wagons with the fastest train that ever existed?
12:06:24  <K0L3C> In real life, of course.
12:07:38  <Rhamphoryncus> Chris_Booth: Try again.  the formula is 231−(13−X)⋅⋅2 where X is the number of wagons and capped at twelve.
12:08:14  <Rhamphoryncus> K0L3C: it's not economical to run freight at high speeds so there's no motivation to build long trains for it
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12:09:48  <Pikka> andy pandy puddin & pie!
12:10:01  <Chris_Booth> lol hi Pikka
12:10:04  <Pikka> I reverted your removing the first table from the cargotypes page on the wiki!
12:10:09  <Pikka> hello Chris_Booth
12:10:20  <Rhamphoryncus> Anyway, my sleeping pills have kicked in (as much as they ever do), so I shall leave you to it
12:10:34  <Pikka> andythenorth:
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12:11:26  <Chris_Booth> Pikka: if you highlight him why not type your message?
12:11:36  <Chris_Booth> you will get an answer faster that way
12:11:38  <Pikka> because I typed it already :D
12:11:47  <Pikka> not a question so much as a statement
12:11:50  <Chris_Booth> ok
12:12:41  <andythenorth> hello Pikka
12:12:51  <planetmaker> Pikka, for what purpose is it needed?
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12:13:16  <planetmaker> it usually only leads to bad CTTs and implicit assumptions of which cargo has which slot
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12:13:26  <Pikka> hmm, perhaps
12:13:35  <Pikka> actually now I've gone a bit further into it maybe it's not needed
12:13:50  <Pikka> but perhaps if the table is removed the notes which refer to it should be removed also. ;)
12:13:55  <andythenorth> ah
12:14:01  <andythenorth> sounds reasonable ;P
12:14:02  <planetmaker> that maybe yes
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12:14:35  <andythenorth> was it this page?
12:14:41  * andythenorth forgets
12:14:44  <planetmaker>
12:14:48  <planetmaker> is what pikka edited
12:14:55  <Pikka> si
12:15:05  * planetmaker always visits "recent changes"
12:15:16  <Pikka> hmm, okay, I will update my grf to version 8 and hope nothing breaks :D
12:15:19  <Chris_Booth> just a quick Q, would making blank/non-detailed trains allow me to run more trains?
12:16:00  <Pikka> more trains than what?
12:17:22  <Chris_Booth> having the normal grf
12:17:48  <Chris_Booth> I mean would it use less CPU power, allowing me to run more trains than opengfx/orginalgfx
12:18:01  <Pikka> oh
12:18:11  <K0L3C> I wonder when the stable release of 1.2.0 will happen.
12:18:13  * andythenorth has no strong feelings on the table - except that the FIRS stuff should be removed
12:18:14  <Pikka> you mean you're not hitting a hard limit, you're just experiencing slowdowns?
12:18:15  <K0L3C> I keep waiting for it.
12:18:23  <andythenorth> the FIRS stuff is almost certainly wrong
12:18:32  <andythenorth> therefore...a source of unhelp
12:18:33  <Pikka> K0L3C: april 1st if history is any guide
12:19:11  <Pikka> Chris_Booth: I don't think the graphical appearance of the trains will give you any slowdowns, a pixel is a pixel.  but any fancier code certainly will
12:19:22  <Chris_Booth> ok
12:19:31  <Pikka> and the default graphics/opengfx have no fancy code
12:19:35  <Pikka> so they're about as fast as you'll get
12:19:38  <Chris_Booth> I just wanted to try and make the game run sommther
12:19:51  <Pikka> turned off full animation?
12:19:53  <Chris_Booth> smoothef
12:19:59  <Chris_Booth> yes
12:20:07  <Chris_Booth> and buildings
12:20:08  <andythenorth> bought a bigger computer?
12:20:11  <Chris_Booth> and trees
12:20:11  <planetmaker> it might... if you possibly actionA replace the base set graphics by invisible graphics
12:20:19  <TWerkhoven[l]> overclocked your system?
12:20:20  <planetmaker> it would maybe need less repaints. But not sure
12:20:28  <andythenorth> Chris_Booth: try buying a bigger computer, then report back ;)
12:20:28  <Chris_Booth> andythenorth: I have one, but not very portable
12:20:38  <andythenorth> that's the price of 'bigger'
12:20:41  <Pikka> it'd also be quite difficult and uninteresting to play with invisible trains, planetmaker
12:20:57  <andythenorth> make them visible if stuck?
12:21:06  <andythenorth> run a counter for when the train last moved?
12:21:10  <andythenorth> varaction 2
12:21:10  <planetmaker> absolutely, Pikka :-)
12:21:20  <Pikka> I should think the code to check that would slow things down more than drawing the sprites, andy?
12:21:26  <andythenorth> there is that
12:21:29  <andythenorth> out of sight, out of mind though
12:21:32  <planetmaker> andythenorth, if you add that, then you again add NewGRF logic. Which might over-compensate that gain ;-)
12:21:46  <andythenorth> logic is often faster than drawing, in my limited experience
12:21:51  <Chris_Booth> ok well I guess the slowing down on my laptop ia something I can live with
12:21:52  <andythenorth> depends what vars need to be checked :P
12:22:00  <planetmaker> but maybe. But then... invisible sprites are *also* drawn
12:22:10  <planetmaker> Thus it might be illusionary that it helps anything at all
12:22:38  <Chris_Booth> or fix my routes so YAPF is less of a beast
12:23:19  <planetmaker> in any case, Pikka: would you be sad to NOT have the type A / type B table you re-added to the wiki?
12:23:30  <planetmaker> IMHO it exposes internal details which... should not be exposed :-)
12:24:39  <andythenorth> just fail the graphics chain :P
12:24:45  * andythenorth is sure that's ok :P
12:28:18  <Pikka> yeah, I guess the table can go :D
12:28:42  <Pikka> I guess anything v8 breaks in my old grfs I can fix. :P
12:28:55  <planetmaker> :-D
12:29:17  <planetmaker> yeah, of course with old grfs... it may be helpful at times...
12:29:39  <planetmaker> but... having it there makes it like it should be used for new stuff :-)
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13:32:01  <K0L3C> Why the world must be so cruel so I cannot tell a difference between cookies with raisins and cookies with chocolate bits.
13:34:07  <planetmaker> Pikka, so, will you undo your re-adding of the table? Would look better
13:34:17  <Pikka> ok
13:34:20  <Pikka> I will also remove the notes
13:34:25  <planetmaker> ty
13:34:55  <planetmaker> is that a new UKRS2 version?
13:35:16  <K0L3C> planetmaker: When the final 1.2.0 will be released?
13:35:25  <andythenorth> ho
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13:35:36  <andythenorth> pikka made a simpler UKRS
13:36:00  <planetmaker> lovely :-)
13:36:08  <planetmaker> K0L3C, who knows :-)
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13:36:31  <K0L3C> planetmaker: I want to play OpenTTD badly but I want to start after 1.2.0 will be released.
13:36:46  <planetmaker> why?
13:37:01  <planetmaker> grab the RC1 and you have all features available in 1.2.0 as well
13:37:04  <K0L3C> Because I am too lazy to uninstall and install the game again. :S
13:37:12  <planetmaker> bad luck
13:37:19  <K0L3C> Also well, I'd like to play the stable version. The RC1 probably has some bugs.
13:37:23  <K0L3C> And I am allergic to them. :P
13:37:30  <planetmaker> especially as OpenTTD does not need install
13:38:23  <planetmaker> K0L3C, and guess what: also 1.2.0 stable will have bugs
13:38:33  <K0L3C> :S
13:38:36  <K0L3C> But... But less!
13:38:41  <planetmaker> and yes, the 1.2.0-RC1 *does* have bugs
13:39:28  <planetmaker> but then you can seamlessly update your openttd. The installer will just install over an older version
13:39:58  <planetmaker> K0L3C, the versions with the least bugs are the last release of a stable cycle.
13:40:06  <K0L3C> What? I thought you need to uninstall and install. :O
13:40:09  <planetmaker> Thus you'd have to stick with 1.1.5 for another 13 months or so
13:40:17  <planetmaker> K0L3C, you don't even need to install
13:40:26  <planetmaker> The installer is there only for ... noobs :-P
13:40:39  <K0L3C> >:C
13:40:49  * K0L3C slaps planetmaker with a delicious pancake.
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13:41:06  <planetmaker> all it does is copy the files in a properly named directory. We use no registry and install no dlls
13:41:17  <planetmaker> *yummy*
13:41:21  <glx> planetmaker: we use registry :)
13:41:34  <glx> only to store things for uninstaller ;)
13:41:40  <planetmaker> oh? :-) Ok
13:44:39  <K0L3C> I wonder how people feel when they are permamently seated to a chair.
13:44:56  <K0L3C> Honestly, I would survive that, I have a computer.
13:45:18  <K0L3C> Worse when something very nasty happens.
13:46:58  <planetmaker> K0L3C, sorry, I didn't mean to be offence
13:47:20  <K0L3C> planetmaker: You didn't offend me with "noob" in any way. :d
13:47:34  <K0L3C> I'm used to this.
13:48:05  <planetmaker> we usually make fun of people who ask for release dates ;-)
13:48:29  <K0L3C> Ah, honestly, I understand that. People should learn and remember that little sentence "When it's done".
13:48:35  <planetmaker> we might have an idea when we want to release something or get it done. But we won't blurt it out prior to a release
13:48:54  <planetmaker> it's bad practise. We do all this in our free time and things in RL might interfere
13:49:12  <planetmaker> and then people will start complaining "why isn't it here". Oh well
13:49:28  <planetmaker> thus indeed "when it's done"
13:49:36  <glx> and everybody should know our usual release date :)
13:49:42  <K0L3C> When it's done?
13:49:42  <planetmaker> exactly :-)
13:51:17  <Pikka> better?
13:51:35  <Pikka> I put a link to the old version of the page for anyone who really wants to see that stuff ;)
13:52:52  <planetmaker> looks good, Pikka
13:54:06  <planetmaker> K0L3C, but one measure usually is, when predicting the future: have a look at the past :-)
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13:54:45  <Pikka> *cough*april1*cough*
13:54:54  <planetmaker> tea?
13:54:59  <Pikka> ooh, tea :D
13:55:04  <K0L3C> Want some tea?
13:55:05  <planetmaker> I just have freshly brewed one here
13:55:07  <Pikka> I just finished one but I could make another....
13:55:13  <planetmaker> A nice Darjeeling
13:56:07  <K0L3C> What if the life is Matrix and when you die you wake up in a capsule?
13:56:40  <planetmaker> it's inconsequential ;-) I can't quite transcendent myself to that level :-P
13:56:56  <Pikka> hmm at the table... OpenTTD doesn't use TWOD?  Who knew? :O
13:57:06  <planetmaker> it never did, I think?
13:57:14  <Pikka> I see :)
13:57:32  <K0L3C> planetmaker: Are you too pissed off at the goverment trying to censor out the internet?
13:57:43  <planetmaker> of course
13:58:07  <K0L3C> I wonder why the hell they want to censor the internet. I think that's a part of evil goverment plan.
13:58:27  <planetmaker> 15 minutes ago I signed a petition that our parliament should not sign ACTA
13:58:46  <K0L3C> Well, my goverment is so stupid they accepted ACTA without looking at it.
13:58:46  <__ln__> ours already did
13:58:55  <planetmaker> nah, not government. The copyright holders (not even the creative people)
13:58:55  <K0L3C> Fortunately, half a week ago my goverment resigned.
13:59:00  <K0L3C> And we're free from ACTA.
14:00:26  <K0L3C> But it needs to go on.
14:00:48  <K0L3C> Sometimes when I look at the world and see how retarded decisions some people make, I wish to go to a jungle and stay there for the rest of my life in isolation.
14:01:34  <planetmaker> doesn't help. The only solution is to participate in public discourse
14:02:00  <K0L3C> Have you heard of an excuse of polish goverment against hackers attacking the goverment websites?
14:02:41  <K0L3C> They said that the goverment websites are unable to work, because they suddenly turned to be the most popular websites ever.
14:02:52  <planetmaker> lol
14:04:59  <K0L3C> And their passwords were "admin1"
14:05:03  <planetmaker> btw, non of the people talking here has yet voted in the titlegame competition as far as I know ;-)
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14:05:37  <planetmaker>
14:09:05  <K0L3C> planetmaker, of what does that word remind you of: Shmetterling
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14:12:09  <Pikka> planetmaker: I just had a good long look at all the entries in multiple resolutions and came to the conclusion that I ain't bovvered.  sorry. :D
14:19:57  <planetmaker> K0L3C, that English "sh" is pronounced as German "Sch" ;-)
14:20:21  <planetmaker> K0L3C, but what shall it remind me of? It's the word for "butterfly"
14:21:39  <K0L3C> Ugh.
14:21:55  <K0L3C> I am pretty sure it would remind you of something else if you would hear it for the first time.
14:22:03  <K0L3C> Because when I heard that, I thought it's a bomberplane.
14:22:37  <Pikka> english, planetmaker?
14:23:29  <Pikka> K0L3C: early SAM:
14:23:33  <planetmaker> K0L3C, why in all the world should I think of a bomber plane when I see the word "butterfly" (as written in my native tongue)?
14:24:06  <planetmaker> and not even now... I've never heart of such a name for a plane. Any plane
14:24:41  <K0L3C> Well, there was a nazi plane called "Messerschwit"
14:24:58  <K0L3C> And that kinda reminds me of them.
14:26:35  <planetmaker> The company was called "Messerschmitt". And how that relates to butterfly still eludes me.
14:27:01  <planetmaker> And honestly, I'm not that old that I saw them flying...
14:27:03  <Pikka> because it has a similar assonance to a non-german speaker, I guess
14:27:11  <planetmaker> similar?
14:27:17  <planetmaker> oh
14:27:19  <planetmaker> well
14:27:57  <planetmaker> as similar to me as river and beaver ;-)
14:28:04  <planetmaker> though that's related actually
14:28:55  <planetmaker> and... Messerschmitt afaik was rather famous for having built the first jet plan ever.
14:29:02  <planetmaker> *plane
14:29:08  <Pikka> well
14:29:26  <Pikka> probably more famous for the bf109
14:29:32  <K0L3C> Sounds pretty for Germans, but for foreigners it doesn't.
14:29:35  <K0L3C> That's evil.
14:30:30  <planetmaker> I doubt than anyone not a WW2 plane fanatic knows the name Messerschmitt...
14:30:37  <planetmaker> but maybe I'm wrong
14:30:49  <Pikka> I wouldn't say I'm a WW2 fanatic
14:31:02  <planetmaker> you're a plane fanatic :-P
14:31:11  <Pikka> also, Heinkel He 178 was the first jet, apparently. :P
14:32:09  <planetmaker> see. ;-)
14:32:14  <Pikka> the Messerschmitt Bf109 is up there with the spitfire though, you don't have to be mad about planes to have heard of it.
14:32:24  <Pikka> yes but I only know that because I just looked it up :P
14:33:21  <planetmaker> hm, in "History Line" the ME were slightly superior to the Spitfire. But ever so slightly... oh those times when I played that. Must be 20 years ago ;-)
14:34:39  <Pikka> :P
14:34:46  <Pikka> must have been early war spitfires ;)
14:35:03  <Pikka> anyway
14:35:06  <Pikka> don't mention the war
14:35:23  <planetmaker> what a typical British saying :-P
14:35:53  <Pikka> it's from an episode of fawlty towers, so naturally :)
14:36:15  <planetmaker> in any case: trying to have me ring a bell with a particular vehicle type used in a war over 70 years ago is bound to not ring a bell with me
14:36:54  <Pikka> :P
14:37:02  <planetmaker> As I'm simply not into recalling the names of them even when I might have read many names on day or another
14:38:31  <hbccbh> any archer playing 1.20RC1?
14:38:56  <planetmaker> archers should go onto a shooting range...
14:39:10  <hbccbh> the base graphics set doesn't work well :(
14:39:35  <Ammler> which version?
14:39:37  <planetmaker> define "not work well"
14:39:45  <Ammler> (of the base graphics set
14:40:07  <hbccbh> Ammler: how can I check the base graphics set version?
14:40:17  <Ammler> options
14:40:20  <planetmaker> see "game options"
14:40:28  <hbccbh> openGFX
14:40:33  <Ammler> yes, version?
14:40:35  <planetmaker> yes. Version. Not Name
14:40:39  <hbccbh> openGFX0.4.1
14:40:46  <planetmaker> Update to OpenGFX 0.4.3
14:40:46  <Ammler> you need 0.4.3
14:40:50  <Ammler> :-)
14:40:54  <hbccbh> ok
14:41:07  <planetmaker> content download -> select updates
14:42:26  <Ammler> who is the packager of arch, is he around here?
14:42:38  <hbccbh> the latest version in arch is 0.4.1 :(
14:42:50  <Ammler> yes, use ingame content service
14:42:50  <planetmaker> hbccbh, you shall update via ingame content download
14:43:07  <planetmaker> arch certainly also hasn't OpenTTD 1.2.0-RC1, do they?
14:43:14  <Ammler> and probably post a bug report there
14:43:29  <planetmaker> if they do, then indeed complain that they didn't ship OpenGFX 0.4.3 along with it
14:43:31  <hbccbh> planetmaker: I am updating
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14:44:59  <Ammler> planetmaker: arch is known to be more than bleeding edge, afaik
14:46:02  <planetmaker> still: they should ship matching OpenGFX for the OpenTTD they ship. Or not ship at all
14:46:18  <planetmaker> they were also released on the same date, so there's not much of a good excuse
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14:46:37  <planetmaker> wb pikka
14:46:46  <Pikka> teeyee
14:47:06  <hbccbh> ok, it works now, thanks dude :)
14:47:52  <planetmaker> it should simply have said you to update. Not much magic. And... it's always best to use the ingame content for updates
14:49:42  <hbccbh> but I found ingame content updates is slow
14:50:13  <Elukka> <@planetmaker> I doubt than anyone not a WW2 plane fanatic knows the name Messerschmitt...
14:50:25  <Elukka> i think it's famous enough most everyone would at least recognize the name and associate it with planes
14:51:05  * andythenorth needs T
14:51:08  <Elukka> though i guess it does depend on where you are
14:51:44  <planetmaker> Maybe. Yes, Messerschmitt is or has been a famous plane manufacturer. But... well :-)
14:51:53  <michi_cc> I wouldn't bet on people < ~20-25 years to have ever heard the name.
14:52:01  <Ammler> planetmaker: where do you find the info, that openttd rc1 needs opengfx 0.4.3?
14:52:29  <planetmaker> ingame. That OpenTTD tells you that you need a newer base set, if you got an older one
14:52:48  <Ammler> yes, how should a package maintainer get that info?
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14:53:18  <planetmaker> A package maintainer imho should always ship the newest OpenGFX
14:53:25  <Ammler> :-)
14:53:32  <planetmaker> And know that its releases can be triggered by exactly these kind of requirements
14:56:09  <Ammler> well, I just meant, that is a good reason to mention dependency changes in the changelog
14:57:10  <Ammler> at least as long as opengfx is the only baseset :-)
14:58:12  <planetmaker> Yes, also agreed
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15:01:14  <Ammler> he, if there is another baseset sometime, you can introduce yet anther version :-P nfo, grf, container & baseset
15:02:00  <planetmaker> why?
15:02:07  <planetmaker> basesets do have a version.
15:04:14  <Ammler> you don't get it? Well, it's not really important, just think about how you would handle multiple graphics basesets
15:05:00  <Ammler> the version number could be the number of action5 sprites :-P
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15:10:45  <hbccbh> umm, when I play in the multiplayer, most server is version mismatch, how can I solve it?
15:11:15  <Ammler> downgrade to stable
15:11:18  <Pikka> play the same version as the server
15:11:26  <Ammler> you can run multiple clients
15:11:52  <hbccbh> ok, I will wait :)
15:12:02  <hbccbh> arch is toooo fast
15:12:22  <Ammler> the generic linux binary from should work
15:12:46  <hbccbh> I will have a try, thx
15:13:02  <Ammler> just use the right arch :-P
15:13:56  <Belugas> hello
15:14:04  <Ammler> Sali
15:14:43  <Belugas> salut man
15:15:56  <Ammler> :-)
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15:29:46  <Pikka> ahah
15:29:55  <Pikka> I have located something grf v8 broke in my grf :D
15:30:03  <Pikka> callback 1D
15:31:45  <planetmaker> changing the grf to v8?
15:33:27  <Pikka> yep
15:33:33  <Pikka> not to mention callbacks 11 and 12.. D:
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15:34:17  <Pikka> callback 1D now has a completely different return format, 11 and 12 apparently just straight-up don't work. :D
15:41:20  <Pikka> silly question: why wasn't cb10 rolled into cb36 at the same time as 11 and 12? :P
15:41:48  <Rubidium> silly answer: ask frosch
15:44:13  <Rubidium> Pikka: has the answer ;)
15:44:53  <Pikka> psh
15:44:53  <Rubidium> it describes all changes in that grf version in one page (not sure whether that's in the specs though)
15:45:04  <Pikka> mmhm
15:45:19  <Hirundo> Ask andy, it's one of his ponies ;-)
15:45:54  <Pikka> anyway I will now stop what I was doing and go back and fix the length callback twice for every single tender locomotive in the grf.  yay.
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16:25:42  <Pikka> hmm
16:25:44  <Pikka> HMM
16:25:46  <Pikka> D:
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16:26:19  <Pikka> so my caboose check subroutine that used to work no longer works, and it no longer works in interesting ways which I think may not be entirely my fault
16:26:23  <Pikka> to the forum!
16:33:45  <Pikka> oh
16:33:47  <Pikka> I'm stupid
16:33:54  <Pikka> carry on :D
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16:36:25  <Pikka> hooray
16:36:51  <Pikka> there's nothing quite like working out the answer after banging your head on the desk for an hour :)
16:37:12  <planetmaker> :-)
16:38:13  <Pikka> the answer was, if you were wondering, that if you now need to get a >8bit callback result from a procedure call, you need to be calling the procedure with type 85 instead of 81. :}
16:39:04  <Pikka> so now I've fixed that, I can go back to fixing the other thing I was fixing instead of doing the thing I was halfway through doing before I started fixing things.
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16:48:37  <andythenorth> Pikka: you know how I mentioned I'm an nml convert....
16:48:47  <andythenorth> ....I'm an nml convert :P
16:48:54  <Pikka> well
16:48:57  <Pikka> I'm not :D
16:49:00  <andythenorth> it was fun, for a while, dealing with bitmasks and things
16:49:06  <Pikka> yes
16:49:09  <andythenorth> I think I'll keep a set in nfo for exercise purposes
16:49:32  <Pikka> but can you even do procedures shared across multiple vehicles in nml?
16:50:23  <andythenorth> I don't bother :)
16:50:51  <andythenorth> so not sure ;)
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17:01:57  <Pikka> andy: well, for complex things like variable running costs they're very useful.  only one place to change things when you decide it should work differently.
17:04:30  <andythenorth> I solved that a little differently
17:04:36  <andythenorth> I'm building nml with python :D
17:04:40  <andythenorth> so I change the python
17:04:45  <andythenorth> compile time versus run time I guess
17:04:54  <andythenorth> it's not in any way better, but suits me fine
17:05:22  <andythenorth> I only have one template for all the trucks in BANDIT so far
17:05:26  <Alberth> andythenorth: of course you build nml with python, it's written in python, so you need a Python interpreter to compile it :p
17:05:37  <andythenorth> cookie for alberth for being smart :P
17:05:51  * andythenorth will now go back to pulling trac tickets for the next product release :P
17:05:53  <andythenorth> bbl
17:05:57  <andythenorth> :)
17:06:01  * Alberth takes cookie, and eats it
17:06:42  <Alberth> bye :)
17:07:55  <Alberth> it does make you wonder whether some generator code should be moved to nml itself
17:10:37  <Rubidium> oh... baking cookies sounds like a good idea ;)
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17:26:12  <andythenorth> Alberth: generator code in nml - seems like a step too far...
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17:32:45  <Alberth> well, you need a higher abstraction level than nml provides, eddi does too, so why wouldn't others ?
17:34:43  <michi_cc> In an ideal world NML syntax would be closer to C syntax with proper variables, functions etc, instead of the current syntax that very much smells like NFO Actions :)
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17:51:19  <Rubidium> michi_cc: we just need nmml ;)
17:54:09  <Yexo> good evening
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17:57:29  <Hirundo> there are higher level things planned for nml, once you stop adding new newgrf features to ottd I may have time to actually work on them ;-)
17:57:55  <Alberth> stop implementing all the new features :p
18:01:54  <planetmaker> michi_cc: yes-ish. But before it's more abstracted we need to implement all the missing features basically
18:02:02  <Yexo> one of the problems there will be that a grf is processed in two stages. When loading you can have variables (stored in the grf parameters) and use them in action6 (=anywhere). After loading you can still implement variables (but only local ones) and functions, those can be expressed as advanced varaction2 expressions (with variables in temporary storage)
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18:02:46  <Yexo> the fact that the global variables cannot be changed during runtime is very non-obvious
18:03:11  <Yexo> there are also problems with using such a variable, changing it and using it in another place
18:03:40  <Yexo> since the value is subsituted at load-time, it can have two different values depending on which codepath is taken
18:04:51  <Yexo> one way to make that more obvious is to force all parameter assignment inside some header
18:05:20  <Yexo> that code is executed once (at load time), the rest is executed at runtime but you can't assign global variables there
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18:10:51  <Hirundo> grf-local storage (at runtime) would be nice, but getting that to work properly w/o desyncs would be a major PITA
18:11:54  <Yexo> shouldn't be too hard, just implement permanent storage (like already done for industries/airports) globally
18:12:15  <Yexo> a more important question: is there really any need for that?
18:14:30  <Alberth> depends on the goal of newgrf
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18:15:08  <Alberth> in my view, newgrf should do local stuff only, and let the more global stuff to scripts and/or the program
18:15:39  <Hirundo> Yexo: Would grf autors realize, how may CBs are called non-synchronously between server and client?
18:15:51  <Yexo> Hirundo: doesn't matter
18:16:10  <Hirundo> why not?
18:16:16  <Yexo> openttd already has code in place, changes to permanent storage done in non-synchronous calls is not committed
18:18:09  <Hirundo> that would also include e.g. cb 36, all visual stuff
18:18:22  <Yexo> yes
18:18:35  <Hirundo> hmmkay
18:18:59  <Yexo> the only result will be questions from those newgrf developers that don't understand why there changes are gone
18:19:21  <Hirundo> Alberth's argument about grf stuff being local makes sense to me, though
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18:20:05  <Yexo> as argument against grf-local permanent storage? yes
18:20:13  <Yexo> but I wasn't in favor of that anyway
18:20:44  <Yexo> some other permanent storage is really needed (like for industries, or airports statemachines)
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18:25:24  <frosch123> we already have kind of global storage for grfs
18:25:32  <frosch123> it's the persistent storage of towns
18:25:45  <frosch123> storage per map is imo a bad idea
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18:25:58  <frosch123> newgrfs should not bother about the big picture, gs should do that
18:26:28  <frosch123> if newgrfs would start to care about global stuff we get even worse scaling issues than we already have
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18:50:39  <Pikka> hmm
18:50:47  <Pikka> ukrs2 is at 11101 sprites :}
18:51:13  <Pikka> and I think I'm finished fixing all the problems caused by moving to grf v8
18:51:38  <Pikka> oh, wait
18:51:43  <Pikka> did I check all the...
18:52:35  <Pikka> looks like I did. :)
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18:53:37  <Rubidium> next step... nfo32? ;)
18:53:41  <Rubidium> ls
18:54:08  <Wolf01> evenink
18:55:14  <Pikka> next step: add stuff to the grf :}
18:55:37  <Pikka> or possibly next step, finish what I'm doing and get some sleep.
19:00:36  <supermop> why do people make bros so difficult?
19:00:54  <Yexo> because nobody takes responsibility to lead it
19:01:07  <supermop> seems like that set should have been done several times over by now with all the fits and start
19:03:24  <supermop> but now someone is trying to take responsibility, and its made everyone else all defensive
19:06:26  <michi_cc> <mode="evil">Maybe "everyone else" should have done work instead of discussion. NewGRF coding is not rocket science, but I guess BR(OS) is/was just a nice pretext for a lot of discussion.</mode>
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19:14:27  <andythenorth> michi_cc: In an ideal world NML syntax would be closer to C syntax with proper variables, functions etc <- would you like to subscribe to my newsletter?
19:14:31  <andythenorth> :)
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19:38:23  <andythenorth> frosch123: newgrfs should not bother about the big picture, gs should do that <- +1, newgrfs should (mostly) be quite dumb things displaying graphics
19:41:07  * andythenorth sent his favourite grace hopper quote to leanden wrt BROS
19:41:08  <andythenorth>
19:47:52  <Alberth> nice :)
19:49:00  <andythenorth> forgiveness > permission
19:49:06  <andythenorth> specifically my favourite
19:49:17  <Alberth> indeed :)
19:49:25  * andythenorth made 'lol' at pikka's comment on BROS
19:49:38  * Alberth saw it :)
19:49:51  <andythenorth> Alberth: you saw the steel truck I posted this morning?
19:49:56  <andythenorth>  4 pass render, compositing
19:50:04  <andythenorth> made it at 3am
19:50:07  <andythenorth> the baby woke up :P
19:52:07  <Alberth> I don't really see a truck in it :(
19:52:17  <andythenorth> truck / trailer /s
19:52:27  <Alberth> but nice that multiple renders are working :)
19:52:46  <andythenorth> I still have some headaches
19:52:54  <andythenorth> that one was easy
19:53:05  <andythenorth> not sure how I can use the same floorplan to draw loads like logs
19:53:09  <andythenorth> but I'll figure it out :P
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19:55:28  <Terkhen> hello :)
19:56:20  *** mahmoud [] has joined #openttd
19:56:59  <Alberth> hello
19:58:29  <andythenorth> bonsoir
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20:00:17  <K0L3C> How do people make new sprites for new vehicles?
20:00:26  <K0L3C> Do they use basic programs or they need to use a strict palette?
20:02:01  <Alberth> there is a fixed palette
20:02:22  <Alberth> but otherwise, they use every pixel editor that exists :)
20:02:50  <K0L3C> Is this possible to make new sprites with Gimp or something like that?
20:02:57  <Yexo> yes
20:02:59  <Alberth> sure
20:03:04  <planetmaker> definitely
20:03:10  <Alberth> affirmative
20:03:26  <planetmaker> it's the only programme I used to make all the river sprites. Or draw those trees I did.
20:03:35  <planetmaker> or... whatever. Every sprite work I do ;-)
20:03:43  <K0L3C> You mean Gimp?
20:03:46  <planetmaker> Heck, gimp even is a build requirement for OpenGFX
20:03:53  <Alberth> :)
20:03:55  <planetmaker> it uses gimp scripts :-)
20:03:57  <K0L3C> Gimp is a superior.
20:04:06  <K0L3C> Almost same like photoshop.
20:04:15  <andythenorth> K0L3C: common choices: gimp, photostrop, paint,
20:04:19  <K0L3C> But there are two differences.
20:04:19  <andythenorth> ymmv ;)
20:04:22  *** mahmoud [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:04:36  <K0L3C> Photoshop = Easy in start, hard later/Gimp = Hard in start, easy later.
20:04:57  <Alberth> K0L3C: they all work, so just use one you like :)
20:05:45  <andythenorth> the important thing is to get hold of a palette
20:05:53  <planetmaker> making sprites requires no big in-depth knowledge of the programme usually
20:06:16  <planetmaker> and for the 8bpp sprites you need to make use of the palette. Every (New)GRF needs 8bpp paletted sprites
20:06:51  <K0L3C> I find making sprites difficult as hell.
20:07:01  <K0L3C> The worst part is in detailing.
20:07:17  <andythenorth> K0L3C: it actually helps to have less detail in TTD sprites
20:07:30  <andythenorth> (discounting extra zoom levels) :P
20:09:53  <Pikka> I dunno about that, andy :P
20:10:08  <Pikka> I quite like my details
20:10:33  * Pikka got sidetracked again and is currently completely recoding the metcam DMUs
20:11:20  <andythenorth> there's detail and there's detail :P
20:11:40  <andythenorth> stuff like trying to draw in window frames, doors, greebles accurately....mostly doesn't work
20:11:49  <andythenorth> stuff that says 'there is a door here' is ok
20:13:28  * andythenorth should perhaps distribute opinions less :P
20:13:33  <Pikka> :P
20:13:34  <andythenorth> it may be a bad habit
20:13:38  <Pikka> well
20:13:46  <Pikka> particularly with the extra zoom levels now
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20:14:14  <Pikka> it's back to the good old days of ttd instead of having sprites so tiny you can barely see them on a modern screen :)
20:14:15  *** orudge [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:14:20  <Eddi|zuHause> [24.02.2012 00:51] <glx> and it's not black, it's just a darker palette :) <-- no, i mean the screen turns black for a split second, and reappears with the question window afterwards
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20:14:24  <Pikka> so the extra detail does help
20:15:08  <andythenorth> Pikka: you're doing EZ?
20:15:15  <andythenorth> :o
20:15:28  <Pikka> I'm not doing ez sprites
20:15:36  <Pikka> but you can still zoom in more in OTTD now :P
20:15:58  <Pikka> and actually see what detail is possible with the current sprites.
20:16:26  <Pikka> like you used to be able to back in the days of SVGA :}
20:16:50  <andythenorth> hmm
20:16:53  <andythenorth> this baby is cross
20:16:59  <andythenorth> and he's attached to me
20:17:55  <Pikka> we all have our cross to bear :}
20:18:02  <K0L3C> Have you heard of a woman in Finland that killed her husband and two children and freezed their guts in the fridge, to then serve them to people visiting him.
20:18:14  <andythenorth> oh how cheerful
20:18:23  * andythenorth will keep his wife away from the knoves
20:18:27  <andythenorth> *knives
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20:19:04  <andythenorth> procedural details!
20:19:08  <andythenorth> greeble shader!
20:19:13  <andythenorth> nurney render!
20:19:24  <andythenorth>
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20:24:42  <K0L3C> The worst of all, andy, is that.
20:24:47  <K0L3C> The visitors LIKED the meat.
20:27:44  <Alberth> You won't recognize it either when you get it cooked at a dish
20:28:05  <K0L3C> Yeah.
20:28:08  <K0L3C> And that's what's scary.
20:28:20  <K0L3C> They were cannibals without knowing it.
20:28:54  <K0L3C> Unfortunately that's a fucked up world.
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20:30:25  <Alberth> no, it's normal human nature
20:30:51  <K0L3C> Only strongest people will survive.
20:30:58  <Alberth> we are not a very nicely behaving sort of animal
20:31:32  <K0L3C> Alberth: What do you think? In what year WWIII will start?
20:33:26  <Rubidium> 21-12-2012?
20:33:40  <K0L3C> Rubidium, I kinda agree with you.
20:33:53  <K0L3C> This day, you will witness how many retards exist on the planet called Earth.
20:33:54  <Alberth> 21-12-2112 is a much nicer number :)
20:34:04  <K0L3C> Lol.
20:34:09  <K0L3C> Like 11-11-2011
20:34:18  <K0L3C> "Omg it's so weird it must be da end of teh wurld"
20:35:20  * andythenorth procedurally generates significant dates
20:35:37  * andythenorth ponders writing more python->nml tutorial
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20:39:11  <K0L3C> Alberth: Every year, humans are getting more stuppid
20:39:33  <Pikka> I think it's just you, K0L3C
20:41:17  * andythenorth ponders the evidence
20:41:23  <andythenorth> there are *more* humans
20:41:27  <andythenorth> and some are stupid
20:41:32  <andythenorth> but in aggregate?
20:43:05  <andythenorth> are there currently more or fewer burnings of witches than in previous history?
20:43:20  <K0L3C> Pikka
20:43:25  <K0L3C> Why are you so mean for me for no reason?
20:43:38  <Pikka> I'm not
20:43:53  <andythenorth> Pikka: it's not just him
20:43:57  <Pikka> I meant it's probably just your perception, not that it's probably just you getting more stupid :]
20:44:00  <K0L3C> Oh.
20:44:05  <andythenorth> other people have that perception too
20:44:07  <Pikka> yes
20:44:16  <Pikka> but people have always had that perception
20:44:41  <K0L3C> Lets take for example girls today.
20:45:00  <K0L3C> They go to party, dressed like sluts, and then they cry why someone raped her.
20:46:18  <Pikka> and your evidence for this, or at least for this being more prevalent than it has been in the past, is...?
20:46:28  <frosch123> night
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20:46:35  <K0L3C> You don't need evidence, you can see that everywhere.
20:47:14  * andythenorth will perhaps toddle off now and find other things to do
20:47:20  * andythenorth suspects godwin event soon
20:47:27  <Pikka> psh andy
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20:48:15  <andythenorth> Pikka: "real men argue on the interwebs" ? :)
20:48:51  <Pikka> no, but we all enjoy a good trolling now and then :)
20:49:11  <andythenorth> true, but there's such fun to be had in the BROS thread :P
20:49:15  <Pikka> but yes, other stuff is more productive :)
20:49:20  * andythenorth procedurally generates trolls
20:49:28  * Pikka goes back to massacring NFO
20:49:45  * K0L3C is horrified by andy.
20:49:56  * K0L3C grabs a rocket launcher and destroys andy.
20:49:57  <michi_cc> K0L3C: "What is happening to our young
20:49:57  <michi_cc> people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They
20:49:57  <michi_cc> ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"
20:50:53  <andythenorth>
20:51:09  <michi_cc> Most likely Plato, around 400 BC. Seems to suggest to me it is only perception.
20:51:29  <andythenorth> in two recent BBC news stories, it turns out that internet trolls actually look like trolls
20:51:32  <andythenorth> which surprised me
20:51:36  <K0L3C> :O
20:52:01  <andythenorth>
20:52:06  <andythenorth>
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20:56:17  <K0L3C> "Woman thinks the Eye of Sauron has raped her" from the Slovakian newspaper.
20:56:20  <K0L3C> Lol wut.
20:57:41  <Wolf01> ahah
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21:04:04  * andythenorth wtfs at how to generate logs for loads
21:07:06  *** roboboy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:07:30  * andythenorth has idea :o
21:21:33  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> this baby is cross <-- may be time to take it out of the oven then :p
21:22:44  <andythenorth> if only that were always the solution :P
21:23:06  * andythenorth hmms
21:23:17  <andythenorth> generating cargo sprites for flatbed trailers
21:23:23  <andythenorth> not the easy win I thought it would be :(
21:24:18  <Pikka> oh, right
21:24:34  <Pikka> the mail sprites... knew I forgot something :D
21:24:44  <Rubidium> good morning? Pikka
21:24:52  <Pikka> good morning Rubidium
21:24:57  <Pikka> 7:24am :)
21:25:07  * andythenorth has been skyping au recently
21:25:18  <andythenorth> requires someone to get up early, or stay up late...
21:25:19  <Pikka> you filthy swine you
21:25:45  * andythenorth has been procuring australian flags for websites too
21:26:07  <andythenorth> hmm
21:26:17  <andythenorth> so placing stuff like '2 steel coils' on a trailer is easy
21:26:41  <andythenorth> but placing 'one load of logs, correct length' is not
21:27:20  <andythenorth> and '2 containers' can't be placed in the same place as '2 steel coils'
21:27:29  <andythenorth> so that's a bit confusing
21:28:33  <Eddi|zuHause> just nest the decisions: switch(cargo type) { switch (cargo items) }
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21:29:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just nest the decisions: switch(cargo type) { switch (cargo items) }
21:30:07  <andythenorth> yes
21:30:11  <andythenorth> something like that
21:31:33  <andythenorth> the steel coils are place at the locations of the 2 yellow pixels on the flatbed
21:31:43  <andythenorth> but that fails for larger cargo
21:32:33  <andythenorth> also I need to deal with angles
21:32:47  <andythenorth> I can just add more pixels, in more colours, at more locations
21:32:57  <K0L3C> I heard version 1.2.0 has additional 2 zooms.
21:33:00  <K0L3C> Is that true?
21:33:08  <andythenorth> but at some point, this generator stops saving work
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21:33:28  <andythenorth> ho
21:33:31  <andythenorth> hi supermop
21:33:33  <supermop> hi
21:33:37  <andythenorth> hmm
21:33:40  <supermop> just got back from a late lunch
21:33:54  <andythenorth> maybe I just draw an additional central dot (using a different colour for each angle)
21:34:02  <andythenorth> then I place larger loads on the central dot
21:34:06  <supermop> what strange things are you doing now?
21:34:15  <andythenorth> drawing loads on trailers:
21:34:52  <andythenorth> also the generator will know the intended length of the trailer, so I could choose the right length load
21:34:57  <andythenorth> this is easier than I thought
21:35:14  <supermop> a capsule should be a flatbed load for building supplies in the 70s
21:35:24  <andythenorth> a space capsule? :P
21:35:31  <supermop> does firs still have those?
21:35:37  <supermop> a nakagin capsule
21:35:53  <andythenorth> FIRS still has them
21:36:04  <andythenorth> FIRS cargos are officially, really, officially, nearly done
21:36:38  <andythenorth> Pikka: regearing - dead or alive? :o
21:36:44  <andythenorth> I save a slot for it currently
21:37:23  <Pikka> andy: dead, but I'm not going to update NARS any time soon
21:37:23  <Rhamphoryncus> K0L3C: normal plus 3 out and 2 in
21:37:33  <andythenorth> I kind of like regearing
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21:38:01  <Pikka> it was a bad solution to an interesting problem :}
21:38:20  <andythenorth> we miss some extra props on vehicles :(
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21:38:27  <andythenorth> with ability to expose them to gui
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21:40:18  <andythenorth> hmm
21:40:22  <andythenorth> make a 'loads' folder
21:40:30  <andythenorth> generate the loads for each required length
21:40:36  <andythenorth> comp them onto the trucks / trailers
21:40:38  <andythenorth> might work
21:41:11  <andythenorth> and for tricky loads, just draw them :P  then comp them on
21:50:32  <K0L3C> Argh, screw this, I'm DLing 1.1.5
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21:54:42  * andythenorth wonders how many load graphics there are
21:55:00  * K0L3C doesn't understand.
21:55:21  <andythenorth> Pikka: how many different flatbed load graphics do you have in UKRS 2 ?
21:55:23  <andythenorth> approximately?
21:55:51  <Pikka> not many
21:56:02  * andythenorth likes this answer
21:56:08  <andythenorth> is it < 3 or > 3?
21:56:24  <Rubidium> yes?
21:56:31  <Pikka> a couple of steel loads, logs, cars, everything else is just tarp loads :}
21:56:41  <Pikka> hmm
21:57:12  <Pikka> my dmu is now working fine except the predicted capacity in the vehicle refit window is sometimes wrong :D  I wonder how I managed that.
21:58:23  <Pikka> hmm
21:59:28  * Pikka blames openttd and moves on :D
22:00:11  <andythenorth> the purchase menu is such fun :)
22:00:22  <andythenorth> steel / copper / paper coils are just recolourings
22:00:30  <andythenorth> logs, lumber, tarps
22:00:31  <andythenorth> ok
22:00:34  <andythenorth> that will do me
22:00:41  <andythenorth> containers can get a container trailer of their own
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22:03:50  <Pikka> ffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
22:03:55  <Pikka> callback 12 :[
22:04:23  <Pikka> another one to replace all through the grf D:
22:04:30  <andythenorth> always such a laugh
22:04:45  <Pikka> shouldn't be as much of a pain/used as widely as 11, but still...
22:04:47  <andythenorth> that's going to screw me for HEQS 2 as well
22:04:53  <andythenorth> when I move to grf v8
22:07:27  <andythenorth> hmm
22:07:39  <andythenorth> tarps in various colours
22:07:43  <K0L3C> DLed it.
22:07:45  <andythenorth> containers in various colours too
22:07:47  <K0L3C> Now lets figure out how to play.
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22:19:34  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23981 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: reduce GRF size by a few percent by letting GRFCodec determine the best compression
22:20:54  <K0L3C> Uh.
22:21:00  <K0L3C> Why semaphors are different looking now?
22:21:36  <Rhamphoryncus> K0L3C: hmm?
22:22:54  <K0L3C> Rhamphoryncus: Back then they were looking way different.
22:23:11  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> that's going to screw me for HEQS 2 as well <- just port it to nml :p
22:23:22  <andythenorth> likely
22:23:35  <andythenorth> but if I don't do nfo, how do I improve my brain? :o
22:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause> at some point, the same language over and over again won't improve your skills significantly anmymore
22:24:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why no production systems use haskell :p
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22:25:09  <andythenorth> this is true
22:26:28  * andythenorth wonders how to procedurally generate this:
22:29:13  <Rhamphoryncus> K0L3C: there's two different kinds (old mechanical and modern lights)
22:29:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23982 /trunk/ (29 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: use NFO v32 for the extra graphics
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22:30:43  <K0L3C> No Rham.
22:30:50  <K0L3C> The semaphores have a different look right now.
22:31:00  <Rhamphoryncus> alright
22:31:06  <Eddi|zuHause> there's "german" style semaphores and "british" style semaphores, depending on signal side setting
22:31:40  <K0L3C> Okay then, I thought that was updated.
22:32:04  <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: is that only in opengfx?
22:32:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: that has been like this since forever
22:32:29  <K0L3C> In what country does planetmaker live?
22:32:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: even in TTDPatch
22:32:37  <Chris_Booth> oh wow shows how much attention I pay XD
22:32:59  <Chris_Booth> so you get different ones on left/right drive
22:32:59  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, i think OpenGFX handles this the wrong way
22:33:18  * andythenorth -> bed
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22:33:29  <Eddi|zuHause> at least i have recently seen several screenshots where it's wrong
22:33:44  <planetmaker> I destroyed that in current OpenGFX accidentially. There's currently only British ones. Except in nightly OpenGFX
22:34:13  <K0L3C> Oh, that explains everything then. :)
22:34:26  <K0L3C> Because the first thing I noticed was different-looking semaphors.
22:34:36  <K0L3C> They don't look as old as the German ones do.
22:34:45  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the pictures i saw were the other way around. german style semaphores on the left side
22:35:08  <planetmaker> oh, really?
22:35:27  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i don't really know if it's opengfx's fault
22:35:48  <Terkhen> good night
22:35:50  <planetmaker> oh, well may be...
22:35:55  <planetmaker> g'night Terkhen
22:36:05  <K0L3C> planetmaker, in what country do you live? Also G'Night Terkhen.
22:36:09  <Eddi|zuHause> could really be any signal newgrf
22:36:37  <Eddi|zuHause> K0L3C: someone who makes planets cannot live on a planet himself
22:36:53  <K0L3C> Oh, so he's in space or he's a God?
22:37:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like the barber can't be a villager
22:37:08  <planetmaker> :-P
22:37:17  <K0L3C> No but really, where?
22:37:24  <K0L3C> Finland? Netherlands? England?
22:37:26  <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: you can do that by changing drive direction in game
22:37:28  <planetmaker> on Earth
22:37:56  <K0L3C> Okay, that tells everything.
22:38:11  <planetmaker> exactly. It tells you all you need to know about me
22:38:48  <K0L3C> The only thing I know about you is that you are a weird human being. :d
22:38:49  <Eddi|zuHause> then there's at least a dozen people here that know more than they should :p
22:39:08  <planetmaker> :-)
22:39:30  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: need != should != may :-)
22:40:06  <Chris_Booth> XD
22:40:21  <Chris_Booth> some people know where the great planetmaker comes from
22:40:28  <Chris_Booth> and some people Know
22:41:38  <planetmaker> usually these questions like "where is XYZ from" etc just are used to put people into small little boxes, are not helpful anywhere etc
22:41:59  <planetmaker> thus I care little about this...
22:42:02  <Chris_Booth> nope
22:42:30  <Rubidium> planetmaker: what if you answer sol d?
22:42:53  <planetmaker> :-) I do that already, don't I?
22:43:21  <Pikka>
22:43:31  <Chris_Booth> I always tell people I am from france
22:43:38  <Pikka> ukrs2, now with less!
22:43:56  <K0L3C> planetmaker: Well, I'm just curious. It's not like telling somebody in what country they live will break your life apart already. :P
22:44:16  <planetmaker> pikka, you should really assume engine pool switched on by default. It's the default setting after all
22:44:20  <Chris_Booth> K0L3C: you can always find out
22:44:29  <Chris_Booth> its not a scret, he has an IP address
22:44:37  <Rubidium> planetmaker: it's just to make the box a bit bigger, though still pretty small
22:44:38  <Pikka> ? planetmaker
22:44:38  <K0L3C> Which is covered.
22:44:54  <K0L3C> So I am unable to see from what country he is.
22:45:00  <Pikka> I do, that parameter just overrides the grf turning itself off when it detects another trainset it knows about. :)
22:45:02  <planetmaker> Pikka: the boolean setting in the image you posted ;-)
22:45:26  <planetmaker> Pikka: yes... and imho that's... bad behaviour :-(
22:45:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: it's kind of a misnomer then
22:45:37  <Pikka> I know, I should probably change the name of it
22:45:40  <Chris_Booth> K0L3C: then I guess you will have to just imagine the ghost that is planetmaker
22:45:41  <planetmaker> indeed. Name it appropriately then.
22:45:47  <Pikka> I will.:)
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22:46:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: more like "disable compatibility checks with other vehicle sets"
22:46:09  <Pikka> yep
22:46:16  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: "compatibility check"?
22:46:28  <planetmaker> when it's simply a "disable, if others present"?
22:46:41  <planetmaker> or did that change?
22:46:51  <Pikka> planetmaker: only if it knows it's incompatible
22:47:02  <planetmaker> define "incompatible", please
22:47:07  <Pikka> it just happens that it's incompatible with every set released to date :P
22:47:08  <planetmaker> I'm really curious :-)
22:47:10  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there's not much variation you can do
22:47:20  <Pikka> any and every train grf I know about
22:47:29  <planetmaker> lol. Kinda stupid to call it compatibility setting then
22:47:35  <Chris_Booth> what happened to all the trains Pikka?
22:47:58  <Pikka> chris: this is the simple TTD mode
22:48:21  <Chris_Booth> ah ok
22:48:46  <Pikka> planetmaker: is it really so bad to ask someone to rtfm and click a button before throwing my grf in with their hodgepodge of every random grf they could get hold of? :P
22:49:08  <planetmaker> yes, it's bully behaviour really
22:49:14  <Chris_Booth> I say no Pikka
22:49:58  <planetmaker> Or do you not check for the engine pool setting?
22:50:11  <planetmaker> I'll also need to check that box when I add egrvts + heqs
22:50:18  <planetmaker> unless that setting changed from your other grfs
22:50:19  <Chris_Booth> I also don't think I have ever thanked you Pikka for all the fun I have had playing with your GRFs epecialy UKRS 3.04
22:50:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i kinda side with pikka here, but only since there's a sane menu for the parameters. "hiding" them in some "manual" is not the way to go
22:50:26  <planetmaker> which then really is... off the point
22:50:30  <Rubidium> Pikka: are you sure you got every set?
22:50:42  <Pikka> nope rubidium, just all the ones I know about at the moment :)
22:50:53  <Rubidium> Pikka:
22:50:59  <Rubidium> *good* luck ;)
22:51:07  <Pikka> lol
22:51:26  <Pikka> well, perhaps I should just let people do what they want. :)
22:51:28  <Rubidium> and that's not complete as it contains only those that have been used in MP
22:51:54  <Rubidium> Pikka: maybe add a parameter "I have read the readme" ;)
22:52:02  <Pikka> lol
22:52:05  <Rubidium> if that's not set, crash and burn
22:52:15  <Pikka> I did consider that.. a parameter that must be set before the set worked at all. ;)
22:52:21  <Rubidium> but don't forget to attach a readme.txt when uploading it to bananas
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22:52:27  <planetmaker> nah, I always find it annoying when configuring a game, I must say. As a default config simply won't work
22:52:36  <Pikka> eh, I'll probably take the grf check out
22:52:46  <planetmaker> thus I'll have to generate every map with one of those vehicle grfs of yours twice
22:52:56  <Pikka> :)
22:53:38  <Pikka> that said, planetmaker, everyone who's been using the alphas of ukrs2, when they update to this one, will suddenly have the parameters for vehicle availability turned to none. :)
22:54:03  <planetmaker> Pikka: then change the min_compatible_version to not compatible with alphas
22:54:13  <planetmaker> thus that people don't update an existing game
22:54:42  <Pikka> hmm, perhaps!
22:54:44  <planetmaker> which - depending on your implementation of 'not available' - is needed or at least nice
22:55:02  <Eddi|zuHause> min_compatible_version is currently not checked when manually updating grfs
22:55:20  <Rhamphoryncus> speaking of readme, I have 4 newgrf's with ukrs in them, all have the readme button disabled
22:55:20  <Pikka> it's on banananas eddi
22:55:22  <Eddi|zuHause> only when loading old savegames with the right grf not present anymore
22:55:35  <planetmaker> it's needed when you make don't define the vehicle, it's nice when you set climate availability to 'none'
22:55:47  <Pikka> yep planetmaker
22:56:11  <Pikka> it's all strictly done nicely by setting climate to none, I don't just dump vehicles out altogether
22:56:34  <Pikka> that would be quite bad :]
22:57:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that remeinds me i have not tested yet the code to "gracefully" remove a vehicle from the set
22:58:10  <Pikka> oh
22:58:12  <Pikka> hmm
22:58:28  <Pikka> actually that parameter does serve an additional purpose, I guess I'll change it to just do that. :)
23:00:20  <Pikka> it puts UK flags behind the vehicles in the buy menu so you can tell what comes from this grf...
23:01:28  <planetmaker> *that* is a very good idea though, to indicate set affiliation i a manner like this
23:01:52  <planetmaker> it allows nicely to choose fitting vehicles for different regions :-)
23:02:06  <planetmaker> without guess-work or in-depth knowledge
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23:03:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking company logos for CETS, but that doesn't really fit into the scale for some of the earlier railway companies
23:03:19  <planetmaker> how not "fit into scale"?
23:03:41  <K0L3C> Too big.
23:04:04  <Eddi|zuHause> too many details
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23:04:22  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: wouldn't the logos cover a constant pixel amount left of the vehicles and fine is?
23:04:40  <planetmaker> or too little space left for vehicles? But then I'd assume rather for the late steam engines?
23:04:52  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i mean the number of pixels won't suffice to represent the logo in a distinguishable manner
23:05:13  <planetmaker> hm
23:05:28  <Eddi|zuHause> it'd be fine for a DB logo, but not for e.g. prussian or bavarian state railway
23:06:32  <planetmaker> I've no idea about those logos, tbh
23:06:43  <planetmaker> logos back then were more intricate, I guess
23:08:14  <Eddi|zuHause> in the "easiest" case they'll have an eagle and the country's colours :p
23:09:33  <K0L3C> Hmm, I think server list in OpenTTD should have a filter.
23:10:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you're not alone with that thought :p
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23:16:13  <Rhamphoryncus> Why would a widget not draw a background?  In this case a WWT_LABEL I'm adding as a column header
23:16:25  *** Pikka [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:16:46  <Eddi|zuHause> when you didn't resize the underlying WWT_PANEL?
23:17:18  <Rhamphoryncus> .. there isn't one?
23:17:36  <Eddi|zuHause> then that's your reason :)
23:17:40  <Rhamphoryncus> horizontal, vertical, label
23:18:08  <glx> label is just a text
23:18:40  <Yexo> was about to say that, a label never draws a background
23:19:43  <Rhamphoryncus> alright, thanks.
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