Log for #openttd on 26th February 2012:
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02:03:32  <null0010> hello
02:04:04  <null0010> anyone know why my train at a coal mine is stuck at 0% on loading coal?
02:04:57  <null0010> i just downloaded 1.1.5 and started a new game in 1945
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02:05:15  <null0010> i have two train routes, each leading from a coal mine to the same power station
02:05:34  <null0010> one of my train routes is operating just fine, picking up coal and delivering it to the power station as it should
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02:05:57  <null0010> the other is sitting at the coal mine at 0% loading asnd has been for about six months in game
02:06:08  <frosch> maybe it is not refitted to coal
02:06:19  <null0010> what do you mean refitted?
02:06:43  <null0010> i haven't played this game since it was not open source and 2002ish
02:06:54  <frosch> some vehicles are refittable to different cargos
02:07:06  <null0010> oh
02:07:06  <null0010> hm
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02:07:36  <frosch> but if you are not using any newgrf addons, they are probably not refittable :)
02:07:48  <frosch> does the station list "coal" under "supplies"?
02:07:50  <null0010> oh dear god i feel stupid
02:07:57  <null0010> that's..
02:08:00  <null0010> an iron mine
02:08:01  <null0010> :|
02:08:05  <frosch> :p
02:08:20  <null0010> ehehe
02:08:23  <null0010> :)
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02:44:03  <xiong> Well, I've just completed an exhaustive, exhausting series of junction tests. I've controlled for a number of factors and loaded all 12 routes through a (four way) junction.
02:45:03  <xiong> I figured out a way to normalize results made with different numbers of trains and different train lengths. Since I'm using mail, it works out to "bags per day" passed by the jct.
02:46:58  <xiong> So the bad news is: Under some conditions, the simple jct, consisting of two pair of track crossing each other level with some interlocking, is as efficient as a fancy jct (within limits of error).
02:48:37  <xiong> Short, 2-tile trains derive no benefit from fancy jcts; they clear the interlocking fast enough on their own. For these, as much time is consumed waiting to merge on the exit branch than in waiting to enter.
02:50:28  <xiong> Long, 6-tile trains do benefit from moderately complex jct. However, increasing complexity, providing multiple paths, do *not* lead to significant improvement. Eventually all trains exiting to the same line must merge and that's the limiting factor.
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02:58:16  <xiong> Efficiency is *greatly* increased by use of longer trains. We knew this. What might not have been clear is that longer trains completely swamp jct improvements, at least at this scale.
03:01:50  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: how simple is your simple junction?
03:02:32  <xiong> As simple as possible. Pic?
03:02:47  <Rhamphoryncus> 1 sec
03:02:59  <Rhamphoryncus>
03:03:04  <xiong> The jct shown in wiki is overelaborate.
03:03:16  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, that's overkill
03:03:26  <Rhamphoryncus> But take that, replace with path signals, remove redundant tracks
03:03:29  <Rhamphoryncus> is that what you're using?
03:04:18  <xiong>
03:04:39  <xiong> I don't use anything except path signals.
03:04:57  <xiong> Either standard path or one-way path.
03:05:55  <Rhamphoryncus> The yellow is one-way path in your set?
03:06:15  <xiong> You see I have sufficient trains to maintain a queue at each entry; and loops long enough to hold a good amount of trains without backing up to the exit.
03:06:42  <xiong> Ah yes. One-ways at entry. Although, you know, under the circumstances, it hardly matters.
03:07:36  <Rhamphoryncus> A queue?  Does that mean your trains are always entering it from a stop?
03:07:42  <xiong> In fact I did a run with all standard path, which caused some wacky action, trains going the wrong way through the loop until they hit a depot and turned around. Surprisingly, this caused very little delay over the long run.
03:07:59  <xiong> Correct. There's almost always a queue.
03:08:25  <Rhamphoryncus> One-ways almost never matter.  They're only useful to prevent rare and undesirable pathing
03:08:39  <Rhamphoryncus> Try with trains that don't stop.  That'll be a large factor.
03:08:46  <xiong> My interest in in performance of a jct under load; not in how fast rare mains can jam through.
03:09:15  <Rhamphoryncus> openttdcoop junctions are designed to minimize stopping.
03:09:20  <xiong> I'm not sure there's actually a reasonable way to test those, anyway. If they don't stop, how do you know the jct is at capacity?
03:09:39  <Rhamphoryncus> ideally you get sporadic stoppage with then clears
03:09:55  <Rhamphoryncus> And a priority merge lets you have one path go without stopping
03:10:49  <xiong> Well, I mean no offense to say that I don't understand coop thinking. I'm a fan of real rail. I can't find many prototype instances of fancy jcts... at all. Certainly these huge 24-tile jcts I see, with 12 bridges and tunnels... no.
03:11:26  <Rhamphoryncus> Check the openttdcoop archives
03:11:32  <Rhamphoryncus>
03:11:35  <xiong> You seem to be making an assumption that some main is more important than some branch. In my test setup, all four legs are equal.
03:11:57  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm not, but it still can help
03:12:11  <Rhamphoryncus> And since you are doing testing.. it's something to test :)
03:12:17  <xiong> Sorry, I've seen. Just not my cup of tea. Tends to the enormous.
03:12:43  <Rhamphoryncus> I've noticed that long trains work better too, but they're not necessarily as interesting to network
03:12:44  <xiong> Testing is arduous. The bigger everything gets, the longer the test must be to give any significance.
03:13:17  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, in my private games I prefer long trains with signals every 5th rather than 2nd, which makes junctions MUCH easier
03:13:18  <xiong> If you allow yourself more land, you automatically make everything easier.
03:13:28  <Rhamphoryncus> yup
03:13:44  <xiong> I don't see that signal density on the line has anything to do with jct?
03:14:43  <Rhamphoryncus> Well you know that going from 2 to 5 creates a congestion point, right?
03:14:55  <xiong> Um, no.
03:15:09  <xiong> In fact, I'd disagree. It's only apparent.
03:15:42  <xiong> Depending on your meaning of "congestion point".
03:15:51  <Rhamphoryncus> Are you saying that is purely visual?
03:17:10  <xiong> That's a complex jct -- complex routes, complex signaling. I can't speak to effects at these large scales.
03:17:19  <Rhamphoryncus> ahh
03:17:53  <xiong> Unless I miscount, that's 11 tiles across for a Y.
03:18:00  <xiong> That's not even a 3-way jct.
03:18:46  <xiong> And you've got -- again, unless I miss my count -- 4 track lines in all three directions.
03:19:01  <Rhamphoryncus> We'll I've noticed it in very simple cases, depending on train weight and such.  You can have a single wide loop with a bunch of trains and regular signals, and if they all go from a stop to a start smoothly they'll stay at max speed.  If the spacing is wrong and they don't start smoothly you can have a point of compression (where they slow down, then the one behind slows down, etc) that travels in a backwards wave around the loop
03:19:21  <Rhamphoryncus> No, that is a 3-way
03:19:24  <xiong> Yes, I've seen that.
03:19:29  <Rhamphoryncus> That's a LL_RR
03:19:50  <Rhamphoryncus> Not all of it is shown though
03:19:59  <xiong> Sorry, I disagree, Sir. Trains coming from the north cannot exit to the east.
03:20:07  <Rhamphoryncus> There's a split off the bottom and top and a merge off the right
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03:20:27  <xiong> Well then, if that's only a part of it, then the entire jct is much, much larger.
03:20:33  <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm.  You're right.  My mistake.
03:21:12  <xiong> I have seen a lot of jcts. I've seen sprawls of 30 or 40 tiles, four tracks each way. Unrealistic.
03:21:27  <Rhamphoryncus> realism isn't the point ;)
03:21:39  <Rhamphoryncus> It's network design, almost at an abstract level
03:22:23  <xiong> -- my contributions are Industrial Star and Sunken Star. I consider the Industrial variation obsoleted by the Sunken.
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03:23:05  <xiong> Well see, that's the big problem with this game! Too many people are in it from some abstract viewpoint; while others are stuck with an absurdly realistic viewpoint.
03:23:20  <xiong> So the game is a muddy compromise and nothing works right.
03:24:14  <xiong> Here was my argument for an abstract, usable signal set:
03:24:33  <xiong> You see that after nearly a year, somebody finally coded it up... omitting path signals, no explanation given.
03:24:51  <Rhamphoryncus> sunken star is a nice design
03:25:29  <xiong> As you can see (and in much chat), I heard tons of arguments that all came down to how realistic the signals *look*. Of course, bigsig has nothing to do with realism.
03:25:39  <Rhamphoryncus> Eh, I don't think "muddy compromise" is the real reason we have issues
03:26:15  <xiong> TY, glad you like it. However, under actual testing, it turns out not to perform significantly better than simple except when longer trains are used; and only when properly signaled.
03:26:53  <xiong> For that matter, there's an unfixable tradeoff when signaling. Optimum signaling for long trains is *very* bad for short ones.
03:27:58  <xiong> The key to Sunken Star is that the back end of long trains helps to push them up and out. Short trains are defeated by signals that have them starting from a stop at the bottom.
03:28:35  <xiong> OTOH, the same jct with no internal signals does not outperform the simple, regardless of train length.
03:28:54  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
03:29:09  <xiong> So if you're playing unrealistically, with all trains a standard length, it's of course easier to build your network.
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03:29:47  <xiong> Real railroads have highly heterogeneous traffic -- long trains, short trains, heavy trains, pax, freight.
03:31:16  <xiong> Sunken Star signaled conservatively, with a single signal at the foot of each bridge and another on the right-hand-turn route, works well for both short and long trains. The gain over simple is significant for long trains by about 35%.
03:31:27  <Rhamphoryncus> openttdcoop has adopted that largely due to the limitations of the game
03:31:31  <xiong> For short, no significant gain.
03:31:33  <Rhamphoryncus> And they do mix things up
03:32:10  <Rhamphoryncus> Are your longer trains using a single engine?  Or do they multiply it to keep up with shorter?
03:32:24  <xiong> I'm not saying all fancy jcts are necessarily worthless. But you do pay many prices for them and the payoff is unclear.
03:32:40  <xiong> Look again:
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03:33:36  <Rhamphoryncus> ah right
03:33:50  <Rhamphoryncus> So you're just combining multiple consists.  Like a real life mammoth train.
03:33:53  <xiong> In real life, even single mains are common. I find them to be impractical with openttd and paying for double mains reasonable. So already, there's a split.
03:34:18  <Rhamphoryncus> So rather than train/gap/train/gap/train/gap you have train/train/train/train/train/gap
03:34:38  <xiong> Note the date. These are 1849 Americans. One barely pulls 4 fully-loaded mail cars with freight multiplier at 5.
03:35:21  <Rhamphoryncus> That's another unknown factor then :/
03:35:41  <xiong> Correct. The entire virtue of the train, as a concept, is that gaps between vehicles are eliminated. Long trains work better than short ones, given the same power/drag and TE/drag ratios.
03:35:50  <xiong> ?
03:35:55  <xiong> What unknown factor?
03:35:57  <Rhamphoryncus> You are seriously pessimising your junction with slow to accelerate trains that are always going from a stop
03:36:31  <xiong> Well, what's unknown about that?
03:36:48  <Rhamphoryncus> It could easily change the efficiencies
03:37:30  <Rhamphoryncus> I do expect you'll still find long trains are better, but if a complex junction avoids stopping it will perform better
03:37:56  <xiong> You mean "change" as in "change from faster and more powerful trains".
03:38:11  <xiong> To me, that's no change at all. This is how I play; I start in 1850.
03:38:34  <xiong> I can't think the last time I played until 1900.
03:39:15  <Rhamphoryncus> Normal games at at least 1950 start.  Often later.
03:39:53  <xiong> Last "real" game I played, it took me 5 days, real time, to get to 1871.
03:40:11  <xiong> All the fun of railroading is in early steam.
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03:40:24  <xiong> ... for me. I have to say for me.
03:40:40  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
03:40:57  <Rhamphoryncus> I keep starting early games but I end up being disappointed.  I suspect that's due to not having the right trainset though.
03:41:01  <xiong> 1950 is just the default when you fire up a fresh install.
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03:41:32  <xiong> Well, what you see is NARS.
03:41:55  <xiong> You also need early road vehicles.
03:42:17  <Rhamphoryncus> I'll have to give it a try
03:43:03  <xiong> All my road vehicles are horse drawn. They outperform early steam RVs.
03:43:58  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, that I noticed
03:44:22  <xiong> You do get a peculiar effect with early "trams" -- streetcars. They're horse drawn but the catenaries are still drawn in.
03:44:46  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
03:44:50  <xiong> I'm so glad that transparent catenaries have finally come in.
03:45:07  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
03:45:35  <xiong> This business of not stopping for a junction: This is unreasonable, I think.
03:46:07  <xiong> If the jct is at capacity, you must have trains waiting to enter.
03:47:24  <xiong> Theoretically, there is a point *just* at saturation where trains do not wait; where there is one *just* ready to sail through. But this is not possible to achieve, in reality, in game, or even in a test game without huge fussbudgetry.
03:48:15  <xiong> On the other hand, if the jct is operating at less than full cap, then clearly you are not finding the capacity.
03:48:57  <Rhamphoryncus> Okay, what's your testing setup.  How long are those tracks?
03:49:05  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm going to duplicate it and try my own experimentation
03:49:29  <Chris_Booth> xiong: If toy have things waiting build a depot
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03:49:48  <xiong> Well, if you want to duplicate, I think you really should just start with my files. Safer than explaining all.
03:50:15  <Rhamphoryncus> grasshopper!  :D  But it's not right without hexediting to make it have 65535 HP and 65535 max speed XD
03:50:23  <Rhamphoryncus> true enough
03:50:49  <xiong> I do have places for depoting with the Sunken Star. But depoting confuses the testing setup.
03:51:24  <xiong> Anyway, the loop length is irrelevant. Make the loops very long and then fill up with trains.
03:51:46  <xiong> Obviously, the longer the loops and the more trains, the longer the total run. But that's fine.
03:52:26  <xiong> Let me explain the normalization and you'll see why the exact layout and load fades into insignificance.
03:52:33  <Rhamphoryncus> alright
03:52:56  <xiong> I've got 4 waypoints and each train is ordered around so as to exercise each of the 12 possible paths once.
03:53:25  <xiong> So each train must cross the test jct 12 times per run.
03:54:04  <xiong> There's no opportunity for a train to skip a waypoint, after all; and the long loops with all their signals mean that a train will not prefer a wrong turn. Clear?
03:54:43  <xiong> So whether there is 1 train or 36, the total length of each run is the same.
03:54:55  * Rhamphoryncus nods
03:55:14  <xiong> Also, except for minor variations, jct geometry doesn't affect this, either.
03:55:45  <Rhamphoryncus> So you just pick a train to follow and time how long it takes to complete a cycle?
03:55:48  <xiong> But here's the interesting bit: if there is always a queue of trains at each entry branch then the loop length is irrelevant.
03:56:06  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
03:56:12  <xiong> Since, no matter how long the loop is, the train waits until it comes to the head.
03:57:16  <xiong> So, I calculate thusly: 12 xings per train; 240 bags of mail per train (varies by train length); so many days for a randomly selected train to autofill its timetable.
03:57:37  <Rhamphoryncus> Are these trains empty or full?
03:57:53  <xiong> Example: run-23   701 days   288 xings   24 trains, 240 bags each     99 bpd
03:58:33  * Rhamphoryncus  nods
03:58:42  <xiong> Oh, all full. I full-load them at a distant town and warm up the test bed, depot the trains equally (as you see in the screenshot), and start the run.
03:59:13  <xiong> There is no re-entry to the town; they stay fully loaded. That's why 4 waypoints, not 4 stations. Eliminates any station questions.
03:59:14  * Rhamphoryncus nods
03:59:21  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
03:59:50  <xiong> So that final figure of 99 bags per day depends only on consist and jct design.
04:00:35  <xiong> Loop length, line signals are all eliminated as factors. And the normalization to bpd provides a way to compare different consists, so long as they are equally powered.
04:01:13  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
04:01:20  <Rhamphoryncus> It's a good setup
04:01:26  <xiong> Nor does it matter how many trains are in the test set, so long as there is alway a queue waiting. In fact, even if there are occasional voids in queue, the bpd figure does not shift significantly.
04:01:44  <xiong> Thank you. Was a bitch to set up.
04:02:31  <xiong> I've spent about 16 hours doing runs. I need more hardware.
04:03:04  <xiong> These are slow trains! And even on "fast", a run takes several minutes to complete.
04:03:47  <xiong> You see from the above example, 701 days to complete the run. That's a good 5 minutes or so -- I haven't wallclocked anything, since I don't consider that germane.
04:04:46  <xiong> You see the depots are just past the waypoints. With breakdowns off, the trains never depot unless expressly ordered.
04:05:15  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
04:05:36  <xiong> I turn on autofill for a train in depot then start all trains. By the time the selected train has managed to make the first waypoint in schedule, and starts to timetable, the jct is fully involved and traffic through it has stabilized.
04:06:35  <xiong> It should be clear that any selected train will be almost exactly representative of the mean; since there is no way for trains to bypass one another.
04:06:46  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
04:07:03  <xiong> I guess, in more complex jcts, such a thing could happen. But I would assume that random effects would swamp any such exception.
04:07:35  <xiong> In any case, with all trains sharing the same orders, I don't believe I've made a flawed assumption.
04:08:54  <Rhamphoryncus> Any particular WP pattern?  I doubt it matters though
04:09:01  <xiong> I've selected the same vehicle and made the identical test twice, gotten identical results; and selected a different vehicle and gotten results to within about 10%.
04:09:06  <xiong> brb
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04:11:41  <xiong> back
04:11:52  <xiong> Let me shot you the overall, with signs on.
04:12:44  <Rhamphoryncus> my nars is different, heh
04:13:18  <Rhamphoryncus> Which engine?
04:14:52  <xiong>,8Qh7W
04:15:08  <xiong>,8Qh7W#1
04:16:12  * Rhamphoryncus nods
04:17:19  <Rhamphoryncus> Have you used fast-foward?
04:17:23  <xiong> That's the American 4-4-0 (1849); 50 Mph, 450 hp, 30 kN. Each engine pulls 4 Mail Carriages, 60 Mph, 22/27 ton, cap 20 bags. 2.0 tiles per train; Freight multiplier: 5; Realistic acceleration: ON; Slope steepness for trains: 3%.
04:17:53  <xiong> Oh yes. That's what I was saying earlier: I need more hardware! Even FF is slow with 24 or 36 trains running.
04:18:12  <xiong> Of course it's irrelevant to the test, as is wallclock time.
04:18:12  <Rhamphoryncus> err.. 128 km/h, 1166 hp, 106 kN
04:18:31  <xiong> You have a much newer engine.
04:18:43  <xiong> That's not an American built in 1849.
04:18:58  <xiong> NARS gives 4 variants of the American.
04:19:28  <xiong>
04:19:35  <Rhamphoryncus> ahhh
04:19:44  <Rhamphoryncus> I jumped forward in time
04:20:14  <xiong> Note that it's a real bitch to upgrade an older vehicle to a newer variant. Autoreplace won't do it; and it may be too soon for autorenew.
04:20:37  <xiong> I generally either suck it up or autoreplace to something else, then back to the American.
04:20:57  <xiong> All of this irrelevant to jct testing, of course.
04:21:50  <xiong> The orders, once all trains have fully loaded at Harrisburg, are: ADCB-ABDB-CACD. Hyphens inserted only for readability.
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04:22:42  <xiong> This exercises each route through the jct once per run. I don't consider here whether the jct might permit multiple routes for a train, say, from A to B.
04:23:26  <xiong> 4 waypoints, 3 orders per waypoint; 12 orders in all, 12 xings of the jct.
04:23:53  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
04:24:27  <xiong> Refer to shot for wp id.
04:24:53  <xiong> They're just lettered clockwise.
04:25:31  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, I used a slightly different pattern but the effect is the same
04:26:16  <xiong> It's just an Eulerian circuit over a digraph.
04:26:17  <Rhamphoryncus> 3 trains in each depot, each to one other WP, 12 trains total.  Then repeat that for larger scales?
04:26:22  <Rhamphoryncus> hehe
04:27:10  <xiong> Well, crank it up as you like. I found no real benefit to adding much more trains. Once there's a queue, the jct is at full capacity. Additional trains only extend wallclock on the run.
04:27:18  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
04:28:00  * Rhamphoryncus shrinks his window and holds down tab
04:28:02  <xiong> And as I said: To my surprise, I didn't get significantly different results even when void queues popped up on occasion.
04:28:19  <xiong> You can just click the FF button and it will stay.
04:29:16  <Rhamphoryncus> oh right.  One of my builds has a buggy button for some reason.  This one works fine though.
04:29:19  <xiong> Um, I'm not sure by your previous remark if you're doing this the same way at all. Each train I have sharing orders with all others.
04:30:02  <xiong> Each train is ordered to all 4 waypoints, 3 times for each waypoint.
04:30:49  <Rhamphoryncus> Oh wait, not as easy as I was thinking.. to get an even spread on the schedule
04:31:40  <xiong>
04:32:06  <xiong> To ensure that each train takes the same route, therefore the same total time over the run.
04:32:26  <xiong> So this squelches jcts where one route is favored over another.
04:33:20  <xiong> Actually, I figure all jcts prefer some routes to other routes. But I don't consider this beneficial. My games don't include huge, heavy traffic mains blowing by sleepy little towns.
04:33:45  <Rhamphoryncus> Even when they do they're not the interesting junctions :)
04:33:59  <xiong> Rather, I have hardworking industrial stations throwing out hundreds of tons of cargo.
04:34:37  <xiong> The heaviest traffic, even at whichever jct happens to be central to the map, often is into a nearby station.
04:35:11  <xiong> In many cases, the "main" traffic turns a corner.
04:36:12  <xiong> In any case, I'm just not real interested in any designs that favor through traffic over turning traffic. I figure the truly high-traffic jcts are all mains anyway.
04:36:21  <Rhamphoryncus> Ideally with 12 trains you'd have 1 on each order and they'd be in the nearest depot
04:36:53  <xiong> There's some randomness in my setup, in that I run the trains around awhile, then depot.
04:37:10  <xiong> So not all the trains in a given depot are ordered to the same station at the same time.
04:37:42  <xiong> But I haven't got it all finely tuned. Which is okay since in real play, there's never that level of sync.
04:38:38  * Rhamphoryncus nods
04:38:49  <xiong> Actually, I'm deeply dissatisfied with this testing framework. It's clumsy and time consuming. What I'd rather have are much more sophisticated signals and sensors.
04:39:26  <xiong> I should be able to put a sensor at each exit branch and just run trains, say, for one game year; and see how many trains exited each branch in that year.
04:40:19  <xiong> I mean, this is not high-tech railroading. You can put all kinds of primitive sensors on a track -- pressure, electrical, optical -- to report to tower when a train is passing a given waypoint.
04:40:24  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
04:40:47  <xiong> Ha ha, even with 1850's tech.
04:42:10  <xiong> If sensor output could be graphed -- ingame, ideally -- or at least output to file; then it would be very clear, very quickly, how long you needed to run in order to get a stable measurement.
04:43:14  <Rhamphoryncus> Got an easy way to convert a date into a day number?
04:43:26  <xiong> Oh, by the way -- since you've seen it -- this Double Star that you've been seeing shots of is completely useless.
04:43:40  <xiong> Um, date into day?
04:43:52  <Rhamphoryncus> october 1st to june 5th
04:44:08  <xiong> I just autofill a selected train's timetable; the total time is given in plain days.
04:44:19  <Rhamphoryncus> ahhh
04:44:25  <xiong> Otherwise I have to count on my fingers.
04:44:30  <Rhamphoryncus> that's easier, yes :D
04:46:06  <xiong> The timetable reports "not complete" until the run is finished: the selected train has made it from A (order 1) to A (order 1). Then I figure I'm done. I discard the game then and start over with saved initial conditions.
04:46:40  <xiong> I'm not *certain* that retaining an old timetable might not affect the run. I think it cannot, since there are no stations in the order list.
04:47:14  <xiong> In any case, by restarting from the same year each run, I control for various possible wackiness.
04:47:18  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
04:48:10  <xiong> Science is hard work. You get four strong young lab assistants to hold the damn monkey and his tail grabs the syringe right out of your hand and stabs you in the neck.
04:48:22  <Rhamphoryncus> lol
04:51:33  <xiong> Well, fun's fun and I'm glad I checked it out. I'll continue to upgrade jcts to Sunken Star, with conservative signals only (since more signals screw short trains); but I'm now completely cold on bigger jcts. The only way I can see to make them pay off is with 4-track mains.
04:52:10  <Rhamphoryncus> 4 track being LL_RR?
04:52:16  <xiong> Note that even a simple jct carries most of the traffic that straight track carries. It only looks bad.
04:53:05  <xiong> Well, I don't recognize your notation. But I think yes. Two track in each direction, doubling capacity of the line. With that, a bigger jct might not only pay off; it would be critical.
04:54:13  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
04:55:13  <xiong> The fact is, a number of short, slow trains fill a line to capacity quickly, anyway. Upgrading jcts is not a big win. If I've demonstrated that much, I'm happy.
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04:56:31  <xiong> So this leads to station design. I have experimented with long, narrow stations. The longer the trains, the greater the effective capacity of platforms, lines, and jcts.
04:57:25  <xiong> So my current game, with a station spread of 8, will be abandoned. I have been playing for a long time with 32. I may try something like 16.
04:58:08  <xiong> 32 gives you no motivation to build feeder systems. But even in the 1800's, an 8-tile train is just too short.
04:59:19  <xiong> The scales of this game are just all wrong. Rail vehicles -- engines and carriages -- are way too long.
05:00:03  <xiong> Also, towns are much too close together.
05:00:23  <xiong> I might be able to fix that with a sufficiently large map, dunno.
05:03:23  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, but you have to have some compromise
05:04:15  <Rhamphoryncus> ahahaha, my junction seemed great for the first few trains.  Then it jammed XD
05:06:23  <xiong> No, a bigger map doesn't help. Four times the land, four times the number of towns; they're still hard by one another.
05:06:35  <xiong> Show me this jct, Rhamphoryncus.
05:06:36  <Rhamphoryncus> There is a setting for that
05:06:56  <xiong> Can I force it any lower than "Very low"?
05:07:01  <Rhamphoryncus> nope :/
05:07:19  <Rhamphoryncus> And.. industries aren't balanced well if they're not limited to 1 per town
05:08:20  <xiong> Well, industries can go lower... to "Minimal" and even to "Funding Only".
05:08:46  <Rhamphoryncus> A tweaked junction goes from 254 to 191 days.  However, I only have 12 trains going.
05:09:21  <xiong> I mean, I'm coming at this from HO. Four entire towns is a great luxury, a real big basement layout. You might well have three industries per town.
05:09:32  <xiong> Show me this jct, Rhamphoryncus.
05:11:23  <xiong> There's a gigantic, bilevel HO layout in San Jose. It has one central yard, a staging yard, dozens of industries... and no actual towns. There are two or three townlike areas.
05:11:29  <Rhamphoryncus>
05:12:45  <xiong> "Dozens" possibly an exaggeration. But well over a dozen industry sidings. Except for the yard interlocking and some stuff around the helix and a "back of the backdrop" runaround track, there are no real serious junctions... only sidings and such.
05:13:05  <Rhamphoryncus> With the basic junction the 12 trains were enough to be fairly congested.  With this junction they're not congested.
05:13:42  <xiong> Well, 2053! What kind of trains are those?
05:13:54  <Rhamphoryncus> americans
05:14:13  <xiong> Must be the "Heavy 2" variant.
05:14:18  <xiong> Those are mail cars?
05:14:24  <Rhamphoryncus> yes, loaded
05:15:14  <xiong> I'd like to know what performance you get with your layout for the Sunken Star. Also, can you normalize your figures into bags per day?
05:16:05  <xiong> You don't have a queue at each entry branch; so the assumption that total route length is irrelevant fails.
05:16:08  <Rhamphoryncus> 80 bags * 12 trains / 254 days = 3.78 bags/day?
05:16:27  <Rhamphoryncus> They were queued with a basic junction
05:16:41  <Rhamphoryncus> 5.03 bags/day with this junction
05:16:49  <xiong> Each train carries how many bags? 20 per car? 80 bags per train.
05:17:01  <Rhamphoryncus> yes
05:17:51  <xiong> You're not multiplying again by number of crossings per train, which is 12 given my order setup.
05:18:00  <Rhamphoryncus> oops
05:18:15  <Rhamphoryncus> 45 and 60 then
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05:19:05  <xiong> 80 bags per train * 12 trains * 12 xings per train / 254 days per run = 45 bags per day
05:19:15  <Rhamphoryncus> yup
05:19:21  <xiong> You got that with a simple jct?
05:19:36  <Rhamphoryncus> Yes, but these are faster trains and only 12 trains
05:19:55  <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, and my waypoint is placed differently, so that's a slight advantage
05:20:13  <xiong> Faster trains won't make much difference. More powerful trains, with more TE, that accelerate faster, yes.
05:20:26  <xiong> Nope. Don't think waypoint placement affects.
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05:20:46  <Rhamphoryncus> hrm.. yeah, you're right.
05:21:41  <xiong> Anyway, load the jct to cap and see what you get. You improved from 45 to 60, which is significant but not huge.
05:22:25  <xiong> Also, lengthen the trains. Short trains sail through a simple jct. I saw no real advantage to complex jct with short trains.
05:22:31  <Rhamphoryncus> 60 is close to the maximum for the track lengths
05:22:48  <xiong> Hence the long loops. ;)
05:23:18  <Rhamphoryncus> But yeah, working on it
05:23:23  <xiong>,8Qh7W#1
05:23:47  <xiong> You see I've got loops sufficient to hold about ten long trains each.
05:24:23  <xiong> Of course, if the loop fills up then the exit track is blocked. That may be realistic too, but no longer says anything exclusively about the jct under test.
05:25:50  <xiong> I just feel it's somehow wrong to ignore towns. If they're there, they should be given some pax service at least. If not, then what's wanted is pure industrial play.
05:27:18  <Rhamphoryncus> That's a different discussion :)
05:27:30  <xiong> Perhaps I'll reintroduce cities. A long time ago, I set cities to none. Perhaps I'll go back to 1 in 4 and provide rail to cities only and road vehicle feeders to towns.
05:27:42  <xiong> Yes; but I confess the obsession.
05:29:30  <xiong> That's actually a realistic approach. Rail doesn't go everywhere; and even if it goes near a town for industry, you may not be able to ride as pax.
05:30:10  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
05:31:09  <Rhamphoryncus> Or you could treat the towns as asymmetric.  Full load in them, dump in the city, pick up what they feel like.  The city itself gets proper city to city service for the bulk of its cargo
05:33:15  <Rhamphoryncus> oh yeah, the reason I changed the year was to enable road depots :/
05:33:28  <xiong> Ha. I set cities to 1 in 6, a small map (256). Got 7 towns including 2 cities... immediately adjacent. 40 tiles taxicab distance between city halls.
05:33:36  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
05:33:38  <xiong> ???
05:33:46  <xiong> "road depots"?
05:34:06  <xiong> I have RV depots in 1850.
05:34:11  <Rhamphoryncus> sorry, truck stops
05:34:23  <Rhamphoryncus> oops.  I'm not using a newgrf with old road vehicles
05:34:28  <xiong> Did you set up a feeder service in your town, for loading.
05:34:54  <xiong> Just set a big station spread and throw bus stops, or even 1x1 rail stations, all over town.
05:35:18  <Rhamphoryncus> No bus stops, but  yeah, big spread with 1x1 stations
05:35:36  <xiong> I don't see how road depots comes into this.
05:35:56  <xiong> Probably not real important!
05:36:03  <Rhamphoryncus> I keep calling truck stops "road depots"
05:36:18  <xiong> Yes, but you don't need truck stops.
05:36:29  <xiong> Don't need RVs at all.
05:36:31  <Rhamphoryncus> I have neither truck no bus
05:36:35  <xiong> Right.
05:36:43  <Rhamphoryncus> But I did it using train stations and explosions instead
05:36:58  <xiong> ?? You walked the stations out?
05:37:06  <xiong> Just set a high station spread.
05:37:18  <xiong> Hold down Ctrl to make disjoint stations.
05:37:21  <Rhamphoryncus> I did
05:37:24  <Rhamphoryncus> It's done
05:37:44  <xiong> Well... irrelevant in the long term.
05:38:20  <xiong> You could just depot all your trains, sell off the engines, cheat the time back to 1850 and buy new engines of the 1849 variation.
05:38:56  <xiong> Actually, cheat the time and buy new engines first. Then you don't lose the orders.
05:42:18  <Rhamphoryncus> Let's see, filling up my lines would take.. 192 trains
05:42:38  <xiong> No no, too many.
05:42:44  <Rhamphoryncus> yes, not doing that :)
05:42:54  <Rhamphoryncus> 48 maybe?
05:42:57  <xiong> 36 trains will likely be plenty.
05:43:06  <Rhamphoryncus> Each line is 96 line
05:43:08  <Rhamphoryncus> long*
05:43:18  <xiong> I got good saturation of all tested jcts at 24 trains.
05:43:38  <xiong> The point being, no matter how long the loop, the train still has to wait in the entry queue.
05:43:46  <Rhamphoryncus> alright
05:43:56  <xiong> So long as that queue is there, you're at capacity. No need to fill up the whole loop.
05:44:16  <xiong> An average of about 2-3 trains waiting is plenty.
05:44:26  <Rhamphoryncus> yup
05:45:44  <xiong> At first I thought in terms of many trains. Not necessary. More trains just means a longer testing time. Since at capacity, as many trains as possible are going through the jct in unit time; more trains just wait longer to get in.
05:45:56  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah
05:46:21  <Rhamphoryncus> bwahaha, forgot to remove some signals and my basic junction jammed XD
05:46:24  <xiong> That waiting time doesn't show up in the final bags per day figure because it's been normalized out. Which is good.
05:47:59  <xiong> Okay, this time I got 12 towns, 4 of them cities. And they are reasonably distributed. *Play.*
05:48:19  <Rhamphoryncus> :)
05:48:54  <Rhamphoryncus> hmm, my lines are too big.  Not queuing enough
05:51:26  <xiong> How long did you make your loops? Mine are just about 64 tiles total, out and back.
05:51:52  <xiong> You might just add more trains.
05:51:55  <Rhamphoryncus> 96 out
05:52:04  <xiong> Well, that's a lot.
05:52:12  <Rhamphoryncus> hehe
05:52:22  <xiong> OTOH, you will be able to handle much longer trains that way.
05:52:30  <Rhamphoryncus> There's no kill like overkill XD
05:53:28  <xiong> I've set station spread to 16. I'll still run real, road vehicle feeder service to towns but the spread means I don't have to do much feeder in cities.
05:53:50  <xiong> We'll just say a city is big enough to operate its own municipal services.
05:54:49  <Rhamphoryncus> doubled it to 72 trains.  Plenty of congestion now
05:55:01  <Rhamphoryncus> jam XD
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05:55:50  <Rhamphoryncus> A single spoke can only handle 48, so I'm getting more than that on one
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05:55:59  <Rhamphoryncus> well, nearly that.  It's not a complete jam
05:58:15  <Rhamphoryncus> hmm, forgot to use path signals
06:04:37  <Rhamphoryncus> I definitely need a better way of spreading them evenly
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06:14:57  <xiong> Well, I'm not sure what's the trouble.
06:15:37  <xiong> First, after loading, I let all the trains run around for an arbitrary time. Then I sent all to depot; and equalized them by restarting a few trains and letting them move around.
06:16:00  <xiong> So at the start, some trains are "just past" the waypoint they wanted; others are not.
06:17:00  <xiong> With 6 trains per depot, there's not a lot of opportunity for trains to overload a given loop, assuming a symmetrical jct. Of course, your jct is not symmetrical, which throws the whole scheme into a rubbish pile.
06:17:24  <Rhamphoryncus> This is on a basic junction again, which is symmetrical
06:17:32  <xiong> Oh?
06:17:42  <xiong> Then I'm really stumped.
06:17:46  <Rhamphoryncus> The issue is you manually tweaked the trains to look balanced, but I have too many trains to do that
06:17:58  <xiong> Why too many?
06:18:36  <xiong> Just open the depot windows, as I did in the shot; and pull them open so you can see (trains/4)+1 in each window.
06:18:48  <xiong> Then restart the excess and run them awhile, depot all.
06:19:11  <Rhamphoryncus> I'd have to do that repeatedly.  They're clumpy.  Tons on leg 8, few on leg 3.
06:19:12  <xiong> For the last train or two, it's easiest to open its window and futz with it.
06:19:14  <Rhamphoryncus> that kind of thing
06:20:10  <xiong> Um, no, sorry, disagree. If you start with (total/4) trains on each loop then, in any unit of time, trains moving from one loop to another should be balanced by trains moving the other way.
06:20:11  <Rhamphoryncus> I'll get it working though
06:20:28  <xiong> It's musical chairs with plenty of vacant chairs, a round robbin.
06:20:29  <Rhamphoryncus> should, weren't ;)
06:20:44  <Rhamphoryncus> But I've now switched to your exactly order of WPs
06:21:32  <xiong> I wouldn't think my exact order list is important. But I did try to distribute "evenly". Maybe I just got lucky with a number of factors I didn't think critical.
06:22:04  <Rhamphoryncus> it's easier with less trains
06:22:05  <xiong> Did you give the trains a nice warmup before depoting?
06:22:46  <xiong> Oh, here's another point: How did you get your trains out of town?
06:23:28  <xiong> I had them running the circuit after leaving town; and it takes time for each to load so each new train is injected into the system at wide, pseudo-random intervals.
06:24:09  <xiong> If, at any given moment, half the trains are all trying to get to wp A, then it's unbalancing.
06:24:20  <Rhamphoryncus> tried multiple times
06:24:35  <Rhamphoryncus> and yes I did
06:24:41  <xiong> Science is hard. ;)
06:25:03  <Rhamphoryncus> hehe
06:25:48  <xiong> This is probably why the forums and the wiki are full of BS speculation. You can't infer all behavior from reading the code and experiment is $Work.
06:25:57  <Rhamphoryncus> hehe
06:27:02  <Rhamphoryncus> Well, openttdcoop has a pretty strong empirical basis for their opinions.  Huge network, X trains running on it, 1 spot is jamming and causing huge backlogs.  Redesign section, backlog clears and network flows smoothly.
06:27:23  <Rhamphoryncus> Of course they continue to ramp up the number of trains and add more tracks as needed.
06:28:32  <xiong> Well, I don't argue with that kind of statement; it's anecdotal and uncontrolled but so is most experience. I just think that kind of discussion belongs to another scale of building.
06:29:32  <xiong> Mad scientist schemes, 8 parallel tracks full of maglevs. Then they ask how to build crossovers.
06:30:06  <xiong> I've seen stations with, dunno, 20-30 platforms.
06:30:26  <Rhamphoryncus> umm.. around 120 I think :)
06:30:43  <xiong> In 1850, I figure two platforms of four tiles each is... overkill.
06:30:50  <Rhamphoryncus> hehe
06:31:27  <xiong> I tend to build them that way since later, they do come in useful. But then, the truth is, there's almost no limit to how many platforms you might like for a maxed-out mine.
06:32:18  <xiong> As I said, this game I'm going to a station spread of 16. I have an extremely robust long, narrow station, not fancy. Sometimes I hang a short train bag on the side.
06:33:01  <Rhamphoryncus> A primary industry won't need that.  Their production caps.  However, a secondary industry where you have a multitude of primaries feeding it..
06:33:24  <xiong> Primary FIRS cap at over 1000 tons per month.
06:33:44  <xiong> At that point, I look to barge.
06:34:09  <xiong> Again, totally realistically. At some point, it's cheaper by water.
06:35:08  <xiong> Besides, on occasion, I've built stations to serve more than one industry. I'm no longer sure that's wise.
06:36:24  <xiong> Secondaries can be tough if they produce multiple types of cargo. I feel you need one platform per cargo for a train to wait on full load; plus one per cargo for entering and leaving; plus one per cargo being dropped off.
06:36:44  <xiong> That might be as many as 7 platforms.
06:36:52  <Rhamphoryncus> If your goal is to maximize production then the game mechanics indicate a small, maximum speed train that feeds to a long, slow train
06:37:20  <Rhamphoryncus> yes, you need a train waiting
06:37:27  <xiong> Now you're talking zero-production warehouse stations.
06:37:50  <xiong> I've done some of those. Distribution points, etc.
06:38:17  <Rhamphoryncus> yup
06:38:45  <xiong> But I've done those mostly to distribute rare cargo, like ES or FS. Uneconomical to run many small trains around anyway.
06:39:11  <xiong> I see your point, though. Impress the industry with your fast train, then pull a switch.
06:39:40  <Rhamphoryncus> yup.
06:39:53  <xiong> "Ha ha, you thought we were going to take your crappy old Coal away by maglev. But we still got some of that old steam around...."
06:40:33  <xiong> I have not seen any discussion of shuttles and loops, not anywhere.
06:41:10  <xiong> I find it helps quite a bit to run even a slow vehicle around in a tight loop, "transfer and wait for any full load", or modifications of such.
06:41:29  <xiong> Of course, this all applies to my 1850 start.
06:42:18  <xiong> I've gotten production boosts by always transferring FIRS cargos, not unloading them; and letting a shuttle move the cargo by repeatedly loading and unloading at the same station.
06:42:57  <xiong> If it's a train, it can be ordered only to unload when it has all 2 or 3 types of input cargo loaded.
06:43:32  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, your trains aren't enough to hit the "fast" threshold anyway I don't think
06:43:43  <xiong> Nobody seems to discuss this. I wonder if I have enough experience with some of these gimmicks to put up a wiki page on them.
06:45:30  <Rhamphoryncus> damnit.  All my fancy conditional orders break timetabling XD
06:46:48  <Rhamphoryncus> oh well, worked around it
06:48:41  <Rhamphoryncus> Anyway, that junction I made?  The main goal is split before merge.  This means that rather than having 4 lines combine to a single point, which may handle 2 on average, you expand them out to 12 before reducing down to 4
06:50:28  <Rhamphoryncus> Ahh, results are in.  39 bags/day with the basic, heh
06:59:59  <Rhamphoryncus> 69 bags/day :D
07:00:30  <xiong> Well, that's great.
07:01:07  <xiong> Sunken Star is also split before merge. But not with enough room to store trains of any length.
07:01:27  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, storing a train is a key feature
07:01:31  <xiong> I was concerned about land use. It fits in a 9x9 square.
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07:02:05  <xiong> I add depots on the entry branches, which helps to even things out.
07:02:24  <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, I did tweak the inner roundabout to store a 2 tile train within without blocking
07:03:04  <xiong> I don't see how openttdcoop guys even play with a huge map crammed with towns and industries. I have to think, a lot of stuff goes unserviced.
07:03:24  <Rhamphoryncus> Towns are usually ignored but industries are near 100%
07:04:10  <xiong> My basic goal is just to link up the entire industry chain and provide service to all towns. Haven't made it yet... I've aborted every game due to discovery of a serious misconception.
07:04:34  <Rhamphoryncus> oh, and I should say one more thing: this junction still isn't congested
07:04:44  <Rhamphoryncus> with 60 trains
07:05:34  <Rhamphoryncus> probably 50% more is the critical point
07:06:46  <Rhamphoryncus> Well, maybe not.
07:07:23  <Rhamphoryncus> still, around double that of a basic junction
07:09:24  <Rhamphoryncus> The inner roundabout could of course be replaced with a proper split-before-merge, which'd increase capacity a bit
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08:23:18  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23993 /trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup: remove some disable directives from the NFO as they aren't needed anymore with newer GRFCodec/NFORenum
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09:35:36  <Terkhen> good morning
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10:00:04  <Eddi|zuHause> when does the voting round end?
10:00:36  <Rubidium> when february ends
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10:02:23  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, on my brother's birthday then :p
10:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause> they all start to look somewhat empty on the higher resolutions...
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10:06:19  <Rhamphoryncus> I chose the most empty of all :D
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10:44:09  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: again nobody submitted the trunk version of the intro game ;)
10:46:56  <Alberth> testing how many years it takes before someone does? ;)
10:48:46  <Rubidium> AFAIR each time someone wants to vote for the original intro game in the last round
10:58:13  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... email links are broken...
10:58:20  <Eddi|zuHause> must be something local...
11:04:20  <planetmaker> votes so far seem pretty stable in the titlegame competition
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11:05:48  <LordAro> mornings
11:06:02  <planetmaker> hi LordAro
11:06:59  <appe> hm
11:07:02  <appe> im no genious, and i wish to make my frst grf.
11:07:44  <planetmaker> omg!
11:08:28  * Rubidium then votes for i∊ℑ, e and π ;)
11:08:42  <appe> i wish to make a change to the original industries, making it possible to stimulate the production by adding passengers to it.
11:08:52  <LordAro> planetmaker: when does title game voting end?
11:09:03  <planetmaker> end of month for 1st round
11:09:34  <LordAro> k
11:10:18  <planetmaker> 2nd round will last one or two weeks following that
11:10:22  * appe starts by ruining all the code he can find.
11:11:13  <Terkhen> appe: I suggest reading and checking the following source
11:11:23  <appe> ah, i see.
11:11:27  <appe> thank you
11:11:28  <LordAro> appe: the best way of learning to code, imo :)
11:12:06  <appe> LordAro: well, at the moment, im trying to learn both C#, VB, html and lots and lots of logic, all connected to work.
11:12:09  <appe> this cant really hurt.
11:12:21  <appe> :p
11:12:24  <Terkhen> in case you find something strange, mind that most of the code you will find in the devzone uses preprocessing (CPP) :)
11:12:59  <appe> how does CPP work?
11:13:38  <LordAro> Terkhen: surely it's most C preprocessing?
11:14:12  <appe> thing is, i have yet to discover the basic concepts of code in general
11:14:34  <Terkhen> yes, I meant C PreProcessing
11:14:43  <Terkhen> appe: #include file, #define macro
11:15:00  <Terkhen> like in C/C++
11:18:57  <appe> oh, oh!
11:18:58  * appe think he gets it.
11:20:04  <appe> jesus christ, im on a laptop > wifi > mobile phone > 3g > internet
11:20:19  <appe> <0.5kbps
11:20:29  <appe> in the middle of nowhere
11:20:48  <appe> my ssh connection dies when birds fly by
11:24:03  <planetmaker> you should switch to TCP/IP protocol for your connection. It's unharmed by most birds flying by. It actually might profit from it...
11:24:08  <planetmaker>
11:24:31  <appe> hehe, if that was possible, of course.
11:24:35  <Alberth> but you won't make 0.5 KBps   :)
11:24:50  <planetmaker> Alberth, why not? Give them SD cards to carry ;-)
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11:25:07  <Alberth> good thinking :)
11:25:53  <Arafangion> There's an RFC for that.
11:26:08  * Alberth ponders about density of a truckload of SD cards versus a truckload of tapes
11:26:10  <planetmaker>
11:26:57  <Arafangion> Alberth: That's a tough one... But the tapes would be absurdely cheap.
11:27:25  <Alberth> yeah, that makes it more economically feasible :)
11:29:33  <Eddi|zuHause> mind the date :p
11:30:08  <planetmaker> that's irrelevant :-P
11:30:17  <appe> although, we swedes have more then enough of adequate broadband connections, you cant help to grin at the fact that i have to turn my phone sideways once every five minutes to keep the connection.
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11:30:37  <Arafangion> Curious.
11:31:08  <Alberth> a smart phone :)
11:31:15  <Arafangion> appe: I'm drinking apple cider from sweden. :)
11:31:54  <Rhamphoryncus> use ordinary desktop harddrives.  Tapes are not as cheap as you would think.
11:32:27  <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: Only the data density was mentioned...  But yes...  The hardware to read and write them are getting expensive as feck.
11:32:51  <Rhamphoryncus> I mean the tapes themselves, not even the tape drive
11:32:51  <Eddi|zuHause> bind one end of a cable to the bird, once he arrives you have a proper connection :p
11:33:20  <Rhamphoryncus> I did a price comparison a couple years ago.  Best option was a couple harddrives in rotation
11:33:37  <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: But a *full truck*?
11:33:40  <Rhamphoryncus> Of course that's poor if archiving is your problem
11:34:02  <Rhamphoryncus> Arafangion: hard to say what bulk prices you could get.  You'd have to contact the manufacturers for a quote.
11:34:07  <Alberth> you need a power plant right next door then :)
11:34:39  <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: I'm sure they could come to an agreement for per-truck orders.
11:35:25  <Alberth> you'd influence the world economy with such an order, I think :)
11:35:39  <Arafangion> For tapes? Certainly.
11:35:55  <appe> hm, let's see
11:35:58  <appe> im trying tethering now
11:36:14  <appe> that'is; laptop > usb > phone > 3g
11:36:17  <appe> seems to be a bit more stable
11:36:42  <appe> how long is a normal wave in the 2,4GHz 802.11b/g wifi?
11:37:06  <appe> it seems that when the phone gets to close to the laptop (about 20cm) it completely looses ability to find it.
11:37:38  <planetmaker> 12 cm
11:38:08  <planetmaker> and near field is... usually a few wavelength where the characteristics are quite different
11:40:04  <Rhamphoryncus> So far the numbers I've fond on pricewatch at least twice as much for tapes.  Probably more.
11:40:16  <Rhamphoryncus> It's hard to tell since there's so many different kinds
11:40:16  <appe> ah, i thought <1 would equal problems
11:40:20  <Eddi|zuHause> appe: lambda = c/f
11:40:30  <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: Usually tapes are part of a contract.
11:41:09  * Arafangion doesn't see the point of tapes in this day and age.
11:41:13  <Rhamphoryncus> Arafangion: yeah, they're a very old technology barely used by anybody except big businesses that are slow to move on :P
11:41:45  <Arafangion> Rhamphoryncus: It's not usually teh business that's slow to move on... It's the people operating them and their managers!
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11:41:52  <Rhamphoryncus> same diff :)
11:42:12  <Arafangion> Heh.
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11:43:36  <appe> planetmaker: that would mean that a meter or two would be sufficient to eliminate all of those problems, i guess.
11:43:57  <Arafangion> appe: How long does the USB specification last for?
11:43:59  <appe> and i also guess thats why the htc guide recommends me to use tethering as much as possible.
11:44:06  <appe> Arafangion: how ..long?
11:44:12  <Arafangion> appe: That's conductive, too, which would impact on that distance.
11:44:26  <Arafangion> appe: As for me, when I do tethering, I don't use USB, but 'portable hotspot'.
11:44:47  <Arafangion> appe: Yes...  How long can the USB cable go for?
11:45:10  <appe> the usb cable is a meter.
11:45:28  <appe> i used it as a portable hotspot (wifi > phone > 3g)
11:45:49  <appe> but i now note a huge improvement in stability with tethering (usb > phone > 3g)
11:45:53  <Arafangion> That would work well for me, in good areas, at least.
11:45:58  <Arafangion> appe: Interesting.
11:46:03  <appe> and i guess that is because i was to close to my phone, or the wlan was lacking.
11:46:12  <appe> the hotspot usually works great
11:46:17  <appe> but not around here, for some reason
11:46:23  <appe> im very close to a huge radio source
11:46:35  <Arafangion> Probably doesn't help.
11:47:04  <appe> 150 meters to the 324 meter tv tower in nassjo, little county.
11:47:25  <appe> its obama controlling my brain, man
11:47:32  * appe runs for the foil hat
11:48:42  * Arafangion considers drinking a second apple cider.
11:49:59  <appe> Arafangion: what kind?
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11:54:13  <Arafangion> appe: The name seems to be: +46
11:54:28  <Arafangion> There's another, smaller name, "Herrljunga", though.
11:54:46  <appe> ah, herrljunga it is, yes ;)
11:54:54  <appe> +46 is the country phone code.
11:55:20  <appe> herrljunga-cider in sweden is like root beer in america
11:59:53  <Rhamphoryncus> appe: if obama was controlling your brain you wouldn't know about it.  Clearly this is obama trying and *failing* to control your brain.  lrn2conspiracy!
12:06:55  <appe> :D
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12:08:51  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm an expert.  That's why I don't sleep.  They can't get me if I don't sleep.
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12:12:53  <Alberth> that's what they want you to think. if you are tired, you make mistakes without realizing it
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12:18:59  <Rhamphoryncus> How do I know you're not one of them?
12:25:38  <Alberth> you don't
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12:37:21  <Chris_Booth> beer
12:38:58  <LordAro> why is it that the selectors ( would need mask sprites?
12:39:05  <LordAro> (if anybody knows :) )
12:39:43  <Arafangion> appe: I was wondering why the heck it was +46! That clears it up a lot!
12:39:59  <Arafangion> It was honestly driving me nuts.
12:41:35  <appe> :D
12:41:41  <appe> where did you see that?
12:41:52  <appe> that should be located around a barcode or something.
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12:43:53  <Yexo> LordAro: those are recolored by openttd to red/blue for error/station coverage selectors
12:44:23  <Yexo> and recoloring means they need to use specific colors from the palette -> mask file needed
12:44:45  <LordAro> that makes sense
12:45:19  <LordAro> and also explains why it didn't seem to be recoloured :) - mask psirtes appear to be broken
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12:47:59  <Rhamphoryncus> oi.  I have screenshops open in my browser and I keep trying to hit x to toggle transparency, right-click to drag the map, zoom in and out, etc
12:48:37  <LordAro> i have a tendancy to try to do that in the screenshots forum :)
12:48:57  <Rhamphoryncus> or hit e and drag the count the tiles
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13:04:20  <Rhamphoryncus> hah.  And I just tried to scroll down using my scroll wheel in openttd
13:08:03  <planetmaker> and it zoomed?
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13:11:03  <Rhamphoryncus> yup
13:11:19  * appe zooms in on Mark
13:11:35  <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: if you're still around I've noticed my junction is a (with some inconsequential changes
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13:19:54  <Arafangion> appe: The +46 is about an inch high on the label.
13:20:08  <Arafangion> appe: About 3cm, wehreas "HERRLJUNGA" is about 8mm.
13:20:31  <appe> :O
13:20:33  <appe> i see
13:20:44  <Arafangion> appe: It's about 4 times the size of the barcode.
13:20:50  <appe>
13:20:51  <appe> ah yes
13:21:06  <appe> where did you say you live?
13:21:10  <Arafangion> Australia.
13:21:22  <appe> dafuq, herrljunga in australia? :D
13:21:24  <appe> neat!
13:21:25  <Arafangion> Here, I can easily get the apple cider, which is delicious, and the pear cider, which I have yet to try.
13:21:36  <Arafangion> As bottles.
13:21:39  <appe> ah, i see
13:21:46  <Elukka> how grandiose
13:21:51  <Mark> appe: Amenduråå
13:21:56  <appe> Mark: omÀndurå.
13:22:05  <__ln__> not the republic of sweden, no.
13:22:13  <appe> Mark: dom har herrljunga i australien.
13:22:21  <appe> Mark: that's a bit cool-ish.
13:22:41  <Mark> Das Köningreich Schweden.
13:22:44  <appe> :D
13:23:00  <appe> Mark: im still waiting for new products called "estelle".
13:23:01  <appe> ;)
13:23:21  <Mark> appe: Yeah, thy have Kopperbergs in Ireland and Germany.
13:23:42  <appe> neat
13:24:04  <appe> its like that time i found kalles kaviar in the halal section on tesco in london.
13:24:19  <Mark> :D
13:24:28  <appe> a tad bit wierd
13:29:02  <Elukka> our media wouldn't goddamn shut up about your princess for the past few days
13:29:05  <Elukka> IS HER NAME GOOD
13:29:07  <Elukka> IS HER NAME BAD
13:29:42  <appe> its the same around here
13:29:45  <appe> for my part, its a name.
13:29:51  <appe> enough of it. :)
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13:42:54  <MNIM> meh, ours won't shut the fuck up about our prince. :/
13:43:01  <MNIM> well, one of ours, at least.
13:44:22  <alluke> which prince
13:44:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it's the prince of bel air :p
13:45:07  <alluke> so funny i forgot to laugh
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13:47:49  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway some dutch prince was skiing off the main ramps and got into an avalanche a few weeks ago, and now he's in some sort of coma
13:51:00  <Alberth> MNIM: you didn't think the news was about anything important happening in the world, did you?
13:51:32  <MNIM> you'd almost think so, eh.
13:51:47  <MNIM> anyway, one of our princes decided to race against an avalanche in Lech.
13:51:57  <MNIM> ...The avalanche won.
13:52:15  <MNIM> So he's now comatose, and quite probably terminally so.
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13:55:32  <fuchs82> Hi, kann mir jemand mit den Sound Daten helfen? Bisher hab ich einfach den gm Ordner kopiert, aber das funktioniert anscheinend in der 1.2er nichtmehr :-(
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14:01:36  <glx> @topic get -1
14:01:36  <DorpsGek> glx: English only
14:03:13  <fuchs82> where do i place my sound files from the gm folder? in v1.2 simply copying the folder does not work..
14:06:16  <Alberth> I think the folder got a new name in 1.2, the readme file should explain where to copy the data to
14:08:14  <planetmaker> baseset
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14:08:50  <Alberth> efenink andythenorth
14:08:56  <andythenorth> hola
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14:10:57  * andythenorth ponders
14:11:08  <andythenorth> capacity multipliers
14:13:06  <fuchs82> yep i read the readme and copied to baseset but it did not work. still got the open sounds
14:14:45  <Alberth> did you change the setting in 'game options' too?
14:15:44  * Alberth multiplies andy by 2
14:16:23  <fuchs82> I only have the 'Open..X' option or 'no sound'
14:17:48  <andythenorth> twice as many questions
14:17:51  <andythenorth> twice as much complaining
14:18:03  <andythenorth> same amount of productivity :P
14:18:31  <fuchs82> ok, i now copied the whole gm folder, not only the content. now the sounds are working but not the music :-P
14:21:12  <michi_cc> You might have to hit play in the music player window (only accessible in-game).
14:21:48  <Yexo-> Hirundo: any luck on 32bpp sprites for nml?
14:23:03  * Alberth splits andy in two, and assigns a different project to the 2nd andy
14:23:52  <andythenorth> split three
14:24:05  <andythenorth> assign one to childcare, the other to building lego
14:24:14  <andythenorth> the third writes code
14:24:50  <Alberth> I thought your chldren could build lego for you :p
14:25:18  <andythenorth> not yet
14:25:27  <andythenorth> they are better at unbuilding it
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14:26:48  <fuchs82> in game i only got the OpenMSX Sounds :-/
14:29:25  <fuchs82> i mean music
14:29:55  <planetmaker> of course you got to switch base music in the options. Copying alone doesn't suffice, of course
14:30:27  <glx> you can't switch music pack in game, only in main menu
14:31:17  <Alberth> I think you should run openttd with option  -d9   to get a dump of what stuff gets seen and loaded, but assuming you run Windows, I don't have a clue how to do that
14:32:14  <planetmaker> -d9 will give you a big shitload of output. Using -d grf=3 should suffice
14:32:17  <Hirundo> Yexo-: working on it atm
14:32:31  <planetmaker> hm... maybe not grf.
14:32:45  <Alberth> some misc and some grf
14:33:04  <Hirundo> Yexo-: Params for alternative_sprites become (name, zoom, bitdepth [, image]) ?
14:33:08  *** Yexo- is now known as Yexo
14:33:20  <Hirundo> or bitdepth optional (with what default?)
14:33:29  <Yexo> bitdepth not optional imo
14:33:45  <fuchs82> in the options there is no original_windows for music
14:33:48  <Hirundo> Is bitdepth just a number (8/32) or a named constant?
14:34:22  <Yexo> named constant (or directly comparing an identifier) is best I think
14:34:51  <fuchs82> are the original music and sounds combined in the *.gm files?
14:35:07  <planetmaker> yes, bitdepth sould be compulsory, I guess, for the alternative_sprites
14:35:14  <glx> and the obm is at the right place ?
14:35:26  <planetmaker> that should be shipped with openttd, glx
14:35:44  <fuchs82> yep, in the original files i cannot find any obm
14:36:41  <fuchs82> there are some obg files though
14:36:44  <glx> obm should be in installdir/baseset
14:36:55  <fuchs82> yes
14:37:55  <Yexo> Hirundo: not sure how much time you have for it, but perhaps code it in two parts? First change the parser to allow the new syntax without writing any new output, this will allow projects to start using the syntax
14:38:05  <planetmaker> there are known to be broken gm files floating around. iirc
14:38:19  <planetmaker> like the re-composed ones with "better" music
14:38:20  <Yexo> actually writing the output can then get a somewhat lower priority
14:38:22  <fuchs82> they worked fine with old versions of openttd
14:38:47  <planetmaker> then it's only an issue of having them in the proper dir
14:39:03  <fuchs82> ok. i have all gm file in OpenTTD\baseset\gm
14:39:11  <fuchs82> the sounds are working, but not the original music
14:39:24  <Yexo> sounds are in, not in the gm files
14:39:32  <glx> hmm try in baseset without gm
14:39:34  <planetmaker> remove the gm :-) (though it probably works with the dir)
14:39:44  <planetmaker> *should work
14:39:50  <fuchs82> will try..
14:40:18  <fuchs82> doesn't work either
14:42:29  <Hirundo> Yexo: I'll indeed commit soon, patch stack size is already 10+
14:42:47  <Yexo> perfect :)
14:42:56  <Hirundo> though it contains mainly refactorings, some added regression tests
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15:08:55  <appe> guys, i know most of you have good ideas of this
15:10:15  <appe> are my assumptions correct when i note that the hilberts hotel-paradox requires me to count for two different infinities; infinity and infinity+n?
15:10:39  <appe> or as the experiment states: n = infinity+n
15:12:07  <planetmaker> there's only two kind of infinity: countable and uncountable
15:12:16  <planetmaker> thus infinity = infinity + x
15:13:39  <planetmaker> though... the equal sign is of dubious validity
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15:16:00  <frosch123> there are uncountable many kinds of uncountable infinity though :p
15:16:47  <planetmaker> are the "number" of countable infinites countable?
15:16:59  <frosch123> yes, 1
15:17:12  <frosch123> countable is countable
15:17:33  <frosch123> but there are uncountable infinities which are more than other uncountable infinities
15:31:53  <michi_cc> That's not really the same as meant by the algebraic ∞ though, as the aleph numbers only make sense inside set theory.
15:32:54  <frosch123> appe was talking about set theory though :)
15:34:00  <michi_cc> Yes, but most people generally don't :)
15:35:25  <frosch123> yeah, they just use zorn's lemma intuitively </sarcasm> :)
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15:45:52  <frosch123> michi_cc: but even the ∞ has different meanings for natural numbers, real numbers and complex numbers
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17:15:39  <Eddi|zuHause> my intuition was that the aleph-numbers are countable... am i wrong?
17:16:00  <Eddi|zuHause> just the people weren't sure whether there are more kinds of infinity inbetween the aleph-numbers
17:16:58  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, hilbert's hotel talks about countable infinity only
17:18:38  <frosch123> i only guessed about the countability of alephs. and decided that they just cannot be countable :)
17:18:55  *** theholyduck [~holyduck@] has joined #openttd
17:20:44  <frosch123> ok, wiki says the aleph index is an ordinal number. so uncountable
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17:26:05  <Xrufuian> Why does OpenTTD, when using the Win32API, specifically use MIDI device 0? (Which is always Microsoft's [horrid] synth.)
17:27:40  <Xrufuian> Dispite my default being MIDI device 3, OpenTTD still uses the MS synth. A bit of a waste of the time I spent configuring my sound card.
17:28:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Xrufuian: so where's your patch?
17:29:13  <Yexo> Xrufuian: no idea why it works that way, it probably is some default
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17:30:49  <Yexo> Xrufuian: to be exact openttd will pick the first one who has the MIDICAPS_VOLUME flag set in dwSupport
17:31:36  <Xrufuian> Well, that would seem to explain it. Thanks.
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17:57:21  <andythenorth> hmm
17:57:27  <andythenorth> just can't get my head into coding mood
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18:07:07  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: yeah, I haven't done any today either
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18:46:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23994 /trunk/src/lang/ (17 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:46:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by Wowanxm
18:46:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: danish - 69 changes by mgarde
18:46:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
18:46:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: estonian - 8 changes by taavi
18:46:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 9 changes by jpx_
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18:57:52  <null0010> how on earth do signals work?
18:57:57  <null0010> they confuse me
18:58:27  <null0010> i have two parallel tracks and i want each one to be a one-way-only track
18:58:48  <null0010> but i can't figure out how to signal it for that, they way i tried it must be wrong because the trains get lost
19:00:27  <null0010> i'm using junctions that look exactly like this because they are simple and small:
19:01:06  <null0010> and in my trial case, the branch leads to a station
19:01:27  <null0010> and i want the top track to go left and the bottom track to go right
19:01:54  <null0010> but the way i have it signalled, the train reports it is lost and it gets on the top track going right
19:02:06  <null0010> in violation of the signals
19:02:13  <null0010> (i assume)
19:02:24  <null0010> it's entirely possible i am signalling it wrong
19:02:34  <null0010> completely wrong
19:02:35  <null0010> heh
19:04:23  <frosch123> if it says "train is lost", then you signalled it wrong :)
19:04:33  <null0010> i figured
19:04:41  <michi_cc> Make a screenshot so we can see
19:04:45  <frosch123> some signal is facing the wrong direction and there is no way to the destination of the train
19:04:53  <null0010> mmm, okay
19:05:08  <null0010> i closed the game out of frustration, hah
19:05:15  <null0010> gimme a minute to rebuild it
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19:18:05  <null0010> well okay i rebuilt it and it works alright this time
19:18:16  <null0010> but i'm going to post the screenshot anyways, in case there's a better way to signal this
19:19:00  <null0010>
19:19:35  <null0010> each station is laid out exactly the same
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19:22:25  <null0010> i know there are layouts on the wiki that are supposed to be better but i'm trying to keep it simple for the purpose of learning what the heck i'm doing re: signals
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19:23:31  <Nat_aS> here we go
19:23:42  <null0010> hm?
19:23:54  <Nat_aS> trouble getting on
19:23:59  <null0010> ah
19:24:01  <Nat_aS> now to idle forever
19:24:05  <null0010> hooray!
19:24:14  <Nat_aS> while i write my paper
19:24:20  <null0010> want to look at a screenshot of newbie signals and tell me how dumb i am first?
19:24:32  <Nat_aS> oh i might be worse but shoot
19:24:41  <null0010>
19:24:43  <Nat_aS> i only ever use path signals
19:25:23  <Elukka> yeah go with path signals
19:25:27  <Nat_aS> that's not TOO bad
19:25:34  <Elukka> you can learn the other types later on if you really need to
19:25:43  <null0010> i'm only using one-way-path and path
19:25:49  <Elukka> oh
19:25:49  <Elukka> good
19:25:58  <Elukka> oh, one thing
19:26:06  <null0010> the others i thought sounded too complicated
19:26:12  <null0010> trees of presignals and so forth
19:26:13  <Elukka> you don't really need them
19:26:26  <Elukka> the one rule with path signals is only put them where a train can safely (ie not blocking anything) wait
19:26:32  <null0010> won't i get crashes and explosions without them?
19:26:37  <Elukka> no
19:26:42  <Nat_aS> but yeah switch to path signals and you can also make that more compact
19:26:53  <Nat_aS> your blocks only have to be as long as your longest train
19:26:54  <Elukka> put them right before junctions, but as many tiles away from them as your longest train
19:26:58  <Elukka> path signals i mean
19:27:05  <null0010> hm, okay
19:27:06  <Nat_aS> I'll show you my layouts in a bit
19:27:09  <Elukka> i am explaining this badly
19:27:10  <Nat_aS> in a few hours
19:27:13  <null0010> signals are complicated :|
19:27:20  <Elukka> path signals aren't :D
19:27:23  <Elukka> that's the only placement rule they have
19:27:50  <Elukka> basically
19:27:51  <null0010> so if my longest train is 5 blocks long i should place a path signal 5 blocks away from the junction?
19:27:55  <Elukka> yeah
19:27:57  <null0010> oh
19:28:06  <Elukka> put them where your trains can safely wait
19:28:12  <null0010> i was just dragging a line of one-way signals all the way down the line
19:28:19  <Nat_aS> I normaly use 4 tile long trains UNLESS the route is carrying wood in jungle maps
19:28:24  <Nat_aS> because wood trains are fucking long
19:28:26  <Nat_aS> 6+
19:28:29  <Elukka> 'unsafe' doesn't mean there'll be fire and explosions just there might be trouble later on
19:28:31  <Nat_aS> depending on how far away it is
19:28:35  <null0010> so the trains knew that the whole track was one-way and they can't just magically turn around on something
19:28:37  <Nat_aS> lots of money but DAMN
19:28:44  <Nat_aS> those are some big trains
19:28:51  <null0010> heh
19:28:53  <Nat_aS> also, lategame express trains can be pretty long
19:29:02  <Elukka> yeah what i do is autoplace signals and then manually do them around juncitons and stations
19:29:20  <Nat_aS> because of how many passengers large cities can get if they build around your stations.
19:29:20  <planetmaker> null0010, maybe it's an idea to join a non-competitive multiplayer server and also look there how other people build?
19:29:25  <null0010> what is autoplace?
19:29:37  <null0010> just dragging signals along a path?
19:29:40  <Elukka> yeah
19:29:43  <Nat_aS> IRL frieght trains are the biggest, but in OTTD it's the other way around.
19:29:43  <null0010> ok
19:29:55  <Elukka> if you hold control it'll place them until then next junction
19:29:59  <Elukka> so you don't actually have to drag all the way
19:30:00  <null0010> oh cool
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19:30:35  <Nat_aS> hmm, upon exiting the station your trains don't seem to have any signals stoping them
19:30:42  <Nat_aS> so they can just go and crash into another train
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19:30:48  <null0010> oh that's nice
19:30:49  <null0010> hah
19:31:01  <Nat_aS> BUT, upon visiting the depot they re sorted into two directions
19:31:04  <Nat_aS> which makes no sense
19:31:06  <null0010> yeah i just dragged path signals around
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19:31:29  <Nat_aS> You MAY have made me want to pause writing my paper and show you how I do things
19:31:35  <null0010> heh
19:31:48  <null0010> is the general idea of having two parallel one-way tracks a decent one?
19:32:48  <null0010> also, is there any reason, beyond being silly, to build a transport network using only trucks?
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19:39:18  <null0010> <Nat_aS> hmm, upon exiting the station your trains don't seem to have any signals stoping them
19:39:22  <null0010> how do i fix that?
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19:55:11  <michi_cc> null0010: You should switch the signals on one of the tracks to each station around, otherwise you might get a gridlock if two trains want to enter a station that is already full.
19:56:26  <null0010> switch them how, exactly?
19:56:44  <michi_cc> In the other direction, just like on your mainline.
19:56:45  <Nat_aS>
19:56:47  <Nat_aS> here
19:56:49  <null0010> the signals on the branches leading to the station are the two-way path signals
19:57:12  <Nat_aS> Some people might say this is bad, and I have had crashes, but they were usualy because of mistakes on my part
19:57:13  <null0010> that's incredibly complicated and scary
19:57:16  <Nat_aS> this system seems sound
19:57:27  <Nat_aS> and it's less scary than most of the other examples I have seen
19:57:32  <Nat_aS> it just has a ton of platforms
19:57:39  <Nat_aS> the overall concept is really simple
19:57:48  <Nat_aS> and it scales
19:57:53  <null0010> but why would i ever need so many platforms?
19:58:06  *** fuchs82 [] has quit []
19:58:08  <Nat_aS> factories reveving resources from many industries at once
19:58:28  <Nat_aS> Factories and food processing plants can take in a lot, and produce resources
19:58:35  <michi_cc> null0010: That won't matter at all if all station platforms are occupied with trains that want to leave to the main line while two more trains are waiting on each track to enter the station.
19:59:08  <Nat_aS> if you are frightened by the omega station, just focus on Alpha and beta
19:59:14  <null0010> lol
19:59:21  <Nat_aS> alpha beta and delta
19:59:40  <Nat_aS> delta can be shrunk actualy
19:59:49  <Nat_aS> remove the two outer platforms
19:59:59  <Nat_aS> the important thing about these stations is they can be scaled
20:00:14  <Nat_aS> but you need as many platforms as you have trains that might want to stop at or pass thorugh the station at once
20:00:28  <Nat_aS> the gaps are to allow trains to pass through the station even if all the platforms are full
20:00:40  <Nat_aS> if you set trains to wait for full load that becomes a problem
20:00:46  <null0010> well, since i'm just starting out and playing small right now i think two platforms are probably enough D:
20:00:55  <Nat_aS> yeah, so stick to alpha
20:01:05  <Nat_aS> that looks like what you were trying to do with your layout
20:02:20  <null0010> yeah i just want something basic to learn signals with, haha
20:02:52  <Nat_aS> in fact, I can garintee that alpha stations are flawless for light traffic, but i offer no waranty on Omega stations
20:02:59  <Nat_aS> I am not entirely sure if they are a good idea or not.
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20:03:31  <Nat_aS> notice what all the stations have in common though
20:04:04  <Nat_aS> on the outside are one way path signals facing the direction of traffic, on the inside are two way path signals facing inwards twards the platform
20:04:44  <Nat_aS> and there is a turnaround gap with escape depots between the two sets of signals
20:05:22  <null0010> yeah
20:05:30  <Nat_aS> this allows trains to turn around, and maintain
20:06:00  <Nat_aS> you can tell trains to maintain at nearest depot in the order list, I tell them to maintain at nearest depot if needed after every station
20:06:12  <Nat_aS> the escape depots also allow you to unjam things if they get stuck
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20:07:27  <null0010> rofl
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20:07:41  <null0010> i put 6 trains on the same network as in the screencap just to see what happened
20:07:46  <null0010> they we going alright for a little bit
20:07:53  <null0010> but now they're all just waiting for a free path
20:08:10  <xiong> Now I've seen many suggestions to depot after stations. I allow depots *before* station stops. Why?
20:08:35  <null0010> i've been putting the depot after the station honestly because i thought it looked better
20:08:41  <Nat_aS> ... oh i never thought of that
20:08:44  <Nat_aS> but it makes sense
20:08:56  <Nat_aS> the train will wait in the depot untill a platform is ready
20:09:27  <xiong> Unless you expressly order depoting, either conditionally or unconditionally, trains will decide to depot when their time comes. If they decide to depot when near a station and the depot is on the far side then they will skip the station, depot, and then want to return to the station they skipped; it's still next in the order list.
20:09:30  * Nat_aS tries to figure out how to implement this powerfull concept.
20:09:58  <Nat_aS> i think I'd have to have waypoints for that thought
20:10:22  <Nat_aS> because "Nearest depot" after vising a station would be the depot after the station they just visited.
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20:10:37  <xiong> Depending on your station geometry, returning can be easy or difficult. In some cases, the train will backup along rail in the direction opposite to that intended. In others, it will go way out on the main until it finds a way to turn around .
20:11:10  <xiong> Ah. But if the depot is available just before the station, then the train depots if needed, then stops. No confusion.
20:11:13  <Nat_aS> i find in my stations they can make a nice U turn in the depot row.
20:11:34  <xiong> Right. And that leads to forced depoting before stations, which is my personal preference.
20:12:17  <Nat_aS> back to work, Gah
20:13:17  <xiong> I don't like to order depoting; it's an extra effort. And anyway, depoting only costs time, not money. Meanwhile, my trains usually need to head back where they came from anyway; I tend to run A-B and back, not big loops and through stations. So, forced depot first, which also reverses general direction; then station stop.
20:14:11  <planetmaker> then use a trainset which supports refit in stations ;-)
20:14:18  <xiong> Caution: If you do not order any depoting then the vehicle will depot as needed according to its set maint interval. But if you have any depot order anywhere in schedule, that's the only depoting it will ever get; maint interval is ignored.
20:14:27  <Nat_aS> will refiting distroy existing cargo?
20:14:36  <Nat_aS> if not that's a clever trick.
20:14:48  <planetmaker> of course it will unload cargo
20:15:03  <Nat_aS> and cargo unloaded in depots is distroyed?
20:15:07  <planetmaker> yup
20:15:10  <xiong> I haven't found refit-on-the-fly useful. I've tried it.
20:15:18  <xiong> Playing style, I guess.
20:15:20  <Nat_aS> so stop, unload, refit, load
20:15:27  <Nat_aS> it can help in some cases
20:15:41  * andythenorth wonders how to do a nocall in python
20:15:42  <Nat_aS> if there is a factory at both ends for instance
20:15:53  <Nat_aS> otherwise don't
20:15:58  <xiong> Dunno. If it's pax, well, no need to refit. If it's freight, I don't usually find the magnitude of the cargo compatible.
20:16:27  <xiong> Big long slow heavy train from Iron Mine. What does it want to take back?
20:16:48  <Nat_aS> well consider the diffrence between that and two trains which will cost more money and strain your network
20:16:58  <xiong> The only thing that goes back to the mine is ES. For that, I want a short, light, fast train.
20:17:22  <Nat_aS> although most trainsets don't let ore cars refit to anything :V
20:17:30  <Nat_aS> yeah then don't
20:17:46  <Nat_aS> but if you have a factory and food plant in the same town on opisate sides
20:17:50  <xiong> Well, as I said, I still haven't found the utility.
20:17:57  <Nat_aS> and the stations feeding both are big enough to accept food and goods
20:18:03  <planetmaker> try OpenGFX+ Trains. It's pretty liberal in which refits are allowed
20:18:27  <planetmaker> </shameless plug>
20:18:29  <Nat_aS> make a train that goes between them refitting to food and goods
20:18:46  <xiong> Now, I've done refits with ships. Sometimes a critical industry is on an island.
20:19:06  <Nat_aS> taking food from the plant to the factory then refiting to goods and taking goods to the plant from the factory
20:19:23  <Nat_aS> that way you have a freight train that makes money both ways like an express train.
20:19:37  <Nat_aS> and is cheaper and lower profile than two trains.
20:20:13  <xiong> Oh yes, Nat_aS; I understand the rationale. I did try it, several times. I just have been able to make it work only very rarely.
20:20:32  <Nat_aS> yeah it's circumstantial.
20:20:48  <xiong> I find it a disadvantage, in general, to couple capacity of two different cargos.
20:22:21  <xiong> Say I've coupled cargos c and d, going back and forth from stations A and B. Now I see an excess of c so I increase capacity. But there is insufficient d for the increase. You can say So What? but I might have another town E that could use d... if I had left any surplus.
20:22:51  <xiong> Um, in most cases, I'm more or less obsessed with ES and FS, which tend to be in short supply early on and develop weird surpluses and shortages later.
20:23:30  <Nat_aS> ES FS?
20:23:47  <xiong> Engineering Supplies, Farm Supplies.
20:24:39  <xiong> I often run mixed ES/FS trains, since the quantity is so low early on. Then I build up a surplus of one or the other and while I'd like to compensate by reducing one capacity or increasing the other; I can't do this by simply adding or removing trains. I have to mess with each train's consist.
20:25:00  <xiong> And that's just A-B, without any refit.
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20:28:14  <Nat_aS> I tend to mix cargos early on and then move to dedicated trains later.
20:28:41  <Nat_aS> passengers and FS untill the demand is big enough to warrant actual express trains.
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20:33:09  * andythenorth has no idea what to do with FS
20:33:12  <xiong> Okay, now I'm puzzled. Why particularly FS?
20:33:18  <andythenorth> I end up with huge undelivered piles of them
20:33:34  <xiong> Depends on your era, andythenorth.
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20:34:36  <xiong> I start in 1850; so the (current) FIRS chain is iron and wood to Iron Works; metal to Smithy Forge; and ES/FS back to mine and forest.
20:34:57  <xiong> No other process supports production.
20:35:39  <Nat_aS> WHAT?
20:35:48  <Nat_aS> 1800s Newgrif where?
20:36:04  * Nat_aS demands 1800s trainset
20:36:35  <xiong> At least, nothing that isn't quite complex. For instance, I can send wood to Sawmill, coal to Lime Kiln; from there, FS back to the forest; and chem from the kiln plus lumber to a Lumber Yard, which sends ES back to the mine. But that's pretty complex for an early layout.
20:37:24  <xiong> Um, sorry, I'm no longer sure what particular NewGrfs do what. I assembled a set of them for 1850 play and stick with them without much change. I can tell you the ones I think contribute.
20:37:55  <xiong> I think I get all the trains from NARS.
20:38:26  <Nat_aS> I know the HEQ set has horsedrawn carriages
20:38:30  <xiong> I run FIRS and TTRS.
20:38:51  <Nat_aS> so north american set has trains from the cowboy erra?
20:39:17  <andythenorth> horsedrawn is eGRVTS
20:39:21  <Nat_aS> it would be intresting if there were newgrif disasters for cowboys and Indians.
20:39:22  <andythenorth> not HEQS
20:39:29  <Nat_aS> hmm?
20:40:18  <xiong> HEQS, eGRVTS, Sailing Ships, FISH, AV8; ISR and a whole basket of other station sets.
20:41:25  <xiong> Sailing Ships starts in 1700.
20:42:06  <Nat_aS> how is that even playable?
20:42:14  <Nat_aS> must be slow as hell
20:43:02  <xiong> Well, I've never done it yet. I start in 1850. The American 4-4-0 comes in, in 1849; it's the first reasonably useful intercity engine.
20:43:31  <Nat_aS> probably need a mod to make veichiles not have running cost while waiting to load, or else feeder lines would be useless.
20:43:51  <xiong> Historically, the first trains were very short haul. London-Folkestone; and the latter is now pretty much considered to be part of the former.
20:44:15  <Nat_aS> but I supose a feeder line could be set up to trickle, and mitigate the way ships diliver cargo
20:44:28  <xiong> Nah; I generally turn a profit on the municipal bus service. Horse carriages are cheap to run.
20:44:46  <Nat_aS> a ship will load a ton of cargo all at once, if you send it directly to the factory, the factory will only produce once a year.
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20:44:59  <xiong> You're thinking of ships only?
20:45:03  <Nat_aS> but if you set up a feeder it will slowly distribute goods to the factory so it will produce constantly
20:45:04  <Nat_aS> yeah
20:45:08  <xiong> You need the loop trick.
20:45:10  <Nat_aS> ships and trucks.
20:45:12  <Nat_aS> loop?
20:45:42  <xiong> I really should publish this onwiki. I'm sure I'm not the first to discover it but this is twice this weekend I'm talking about it.
20:46:45  <andythenorth> Folkestone is not considered part of London ;)
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20:47:13  <xiong> Simple: Build a very small loop of road enclosing a single truck stop joined to your main station; add a depot. Now order a single truck (in my case, horse wagon) to that stop only. To avoid notices, you need to order it twice to the stop and twice to nearest depot. Order it to transfer and wait for any full load.
20:48:05  <Nat_aS> what does that do?
20:48:11  <xiong> So the loop vehicle is frequently picking up cargo; since it transfers it out, it doesn't consume any. Station rating skyrockets and plenty of cargo is waiting for your rarely-appearing long-run vehicle.
20:48:42  <Nat_aS> it also makes the station look busy visualy
20:48:53  <Nat_aS> pretend the truck is for sorting cargo
20:49:10  <Nat_aS> I was talking about the receiving end though.
20:49:14  <xiong> It's not unrealistic for a train station or dock to have captive service.
20:49:29  <xiong> "Receiving"? I don't follow.
20:49:46  <xiong> At the far end, you just unload and get paid, right?
20:50:48  <Nat_aS> when that rarely appearing long run vehicle reaches the factory, it will unload all the cargo at once and the factory will produce tons of goods/food/whatever for exactly a month, then stop because it has expended all it's resources and the next shipment wont show up till next year.
20:50:52  <xiong> andythenorth, Evanston is not considered part of Chicago either. But the L goes there... and it's only a matter of civic pride that keeps it independent.
20:51:14  <Nat_aS> so any trains trying to take goods to the markets will be empty most of the year.
20:51:18  <andythenorth> UK perceptions of distance are quite different ;)
20:51:35  <Nat_aS> that's what you get for living on a tiny island :P
20:51:36  <xiong> Right, Nat_aS. So at that factory you have another loop, that captivates the production and holds it for the next pickup.
20:51:41  <andythenorth> Folkestone might be considered by some non-UK people to be part of London, perhaps
20:51:54  <Nat_aS> not really a loop, as much as a feeder.
20:51:54  <andythenorth> in a similar way to the cliche that all UK residents know the royal family
20:52:17  <xiong> Um, not to be contentious; but I don't call it a feeder. The loop vehicles don't go anywhere.
20:52:36  <Nat_aS> don't put the dock near the factory, have a single truck haul the cargo from the dock to the factory
20:52:55  <xiong> By "loop", I mean six road tiles. You can do it with fewer if you don't mind your horse carriages trying to turn around at the dead end.
20:53:16  <Nat_aS> so instead of getting all the resources at once, it receives a slow trickle, which will raise station rating and ensure there are goods to ship out all year long.
20:53:22  <xiong> I don't see the disadvantage to having all production in one month.
20:53:37  <xiong> The loops boost station rating sufficiently.
20:53:49  <xiong> Station rating is not dependent on delivery but on pickup.
20:53:50  <Nat_aS> because the train delivering goods is useless most of the year.
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20:54:38  <Nat_aS> and costs upkeep even if it's not moving.
20:54:53  <xiong> Remember, you don't need two stations anyway. When you deliver with a transfer order, even if the cargo is accepted, it won't be consumed. So the loop can ration out cargo already in station.
20:55:17  <Nat_aS> Hmm?
20:55:32  <Nat_aS> oh
20:56:11  <Nat_aS> transfer to truck, then truck deliver cargo back to same station?
20:56:20  <xiong> Let's switch back to ES, since that's my primary application. Deliver a whole trainload of ES to the mine -- but with a transfer order. Now set a loop truck to pickup and drop, now depoting in between always. Use a slow truck.
20:56:36  <xiong> One station only required.
20:56:57  <Nat_aS> there should be a container lifter truck
20:57:11  <Nat_aS> slow as hell, but minimal upkeep
20:57:16  <Nat_aS> just for loop staitons
20:57:17  <xiong> That truck will move 4 crates of ES each time around, which is more than is needed. But it's better than dumping all 32 crates and having nothing at all for months while the train goes to fetch more.
20:57:26  <Nat_aS> it's only real use is looking cool driving around in loops
20:57:34  <xiong> Um, there *is* a forklift.
20:57:38  <Nat_aS> oh there is?
20:57:57  <xiong> Not in 1850. But in... HEQS, I think.
20:58:14  <xiong> And that would be the utterly realistic loop truck.
20:58:16  <Nat_aS> I notice cargo haulers but no forklifts
20:58:52  <xiong> Yah, eGRVTS has the horses.
20:58:58  <Nat_aS> for passengers the equivalent is shuttlebuss.
20:59:11  <Nat_aS> or Taxis
21:00:04  <xiong> I think HEQS is forklifts.
21:00:33  <xiong> There *is* a road set with London Black Cab.
21:01:54  <xiong> But for pax, I set up a municipal service, 4 stops per town; the 5th is joined to the rail station.
21:02:22  <Nat_aS> yeah
21:02:36  <xiong> That's not quite the same thing; these are distinct stops. My definition of these cargo loops is, they always stop at a single stop repeatedly. Captive service.
21:02:41  <Nat_aS> For passingers it is accomplished by a feeder service.
21:02:58  <xiong> Right. Feeder vs loop.
21:03:20  <xiong> At some industries, this is better upgraded to a rail shuttle. Again, captive service.
21:04:09  <xiong> The shuttle has a mixed consist and is conditionally ordered only to unload when it has a mixed load. So you get the increase in production instead of wasting input cargo.
21:05:46  <xiong> Um, don't "full load all cargo" on the shuttle -- or on any other train if using a NARS engine with regearing refits. Since then, the regearing "cargo" is never full.
21:06:43  <xiong> Full load is the easy way to order the shuttle but what's required instead is an elaborate system of conditional orders to decide when to unload.
21:09:15  <Nat_aS> Hmm, if you placed the deopt in the right place, it will look like the loop truck is taking cargo and loading it onto trains
21:09:39  <Nat_aS> except it will also be taking cargo to the factory as well as from it
21:09:40  <Nat_aS> :V
21:09:59  <Nat_aS> maybe if you used refit orders to refit it from empty and full sprites.
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21:10:10  <Nat_aS> in both cases it would still be loaded, but the change would be cosmetic.
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21:10:46  <Nat_aS> no wait you can't refit at stations can you
21:10:48  <Nat_aS> :c
21:10:51  <xiong> I don't worry about it.
21:11:35  <Nat_aS> i just like the diea of a little front end loader or forklift boosting my station raiting
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21:12:32  <xiong> The loop trucks work. They work very well, to increase station rating, to build up a supply of cargo before long-haul service is established, and to ration scarce cargo delivered to local industry.
21:13:35  <andythenorth> sounds like you're describing piglets
21:13:48  <andythenorth>
21:13:52  <xiong> They usually lose money... but not much. A single, 1-horse wagon costs /yr to run.
21:14:28  <xiong> Right, andythenorth. I was sure that somebody must have described these already.
21:15:14  <andythenorth> I disapprove of this trick for FIRS supplies, but nonetheless, that's what the HEQS forklift is provided for :P
21:15:27  <andythenorth> 'disapprove, but provide a tool for' :P
21:15:40  <andythenorth> like providing clean syringes to drug addicts :P
21:15:46  <Nat_aS> 2..3 or more: if you can spare a railway station track: make a 'Hoglet' or 'Toglet' (Tog = Train in Norwegian!) a train piglet: a cheap engine with 1 wagon per resource; + 1 wagon for something the station does NOT have!
21:15:47  <Nat_aS> Give the 'Hoglet' a sensible maintenance period, since it will stay in the same spot, just LOADing, 99% of the time. The ratings get to about 80%
21:15:48  <Nat_aS> - 1 cheap engine + 3 wagons cost about the same as 3 trucks; but running cost is a bit lower.
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21:16:00  <xiong> Why disapprove?
21:16:11  <Nat_aS> so like a track switcher train
21:16:12  <Nat_aS> awesome!
21:17:04  <andythenorth> xiong: actually, reading what you posted earlier, put a line through 'disapprove'
21:17:19  <xiong> Well, thanks.
21:18:27  <xiong> I don't see another reasonable way to deliver ES/FS. Even a one-car train carries too much to dump all in one month.
21:18:49  <andythenorth> I drop them to hubs, and then run road vehicles
21:19:04  <andythenorth> I do find this single-tile technique odd though:
21:19:11  <xiong> Well, I tried that. The loop truck is just the logical contraction of that concept.
21:20:53  <xiong> Ah. Yes, that wiki page is exactly my loop concept. Just without a loop. Using horse-drawn wagons leads one to think in terms of loops!
21:21:04  <Nat_aS> airplanes can visit fishing grounds?
21:22:07  <xiong> Helicopters.
21:23:01  <xiong> But what you see there has no aircraft at all. The catchment is just big enough to include the fish.
21:23:15  <Nat_aS> yes
21:23:19  <Nat_aS> it just looks strange
21:23:27  <Nat_aS> that helicopters can into fishing
21:25:18  <Nat_aS> are there any good scenerios that use FIRS?
21:25:21  <xiong> Um, that came about with offshore oil rigs.
21:25:23  <Nat_aS> particularly jungle?
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21:25:37  <Nat_aS> there was no way to decouple them?
21:25:51  <xiong> Don't ask me; I just play.
21:26:06  <andythenorth> xiong: there are some HEQS trams that may serve your loop needs too
21:26:08  *** lmergen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:26:11  <andythenorth> low cargo cap
21:27:08  <andythenorth> @seen alberth
21:27:08  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: alberth was last seen in #openttd 6 hours, 54 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Alberth> some misc and some grf
21:27:11  <andythenorth> oh
21:27:16  <andythenorth> :(
21:27:24  <andythenorth> nvm
21:27:26  <xiong> andythenorth, In 1850 all I get are horse wagons. They're okay.
21:28:03  <xiong> I like the 1-horse wagon for rationing ES/FS. 7mph; takes a month to go from truck stop to depot and back.
21:28:04  <andythenorth> will it spoil your game if I tell you the tram intro dates? ;)
21:28:26  <xiong> No, I have horse trams, too. But why?
21:28:46  <xiong> These loop trucks go nowhere. I want them as slow and cheap as possible.
21:28:56  <andythenorth> ah ok
21:29:09  <xiong> The only improvement would be even smaller vehicles that only carried one crate at a time.
21:29:17  <Nat_aS> like a forklift
21:29:29  <Nat_aS> or front end loader for primary industries.
21:29:34  <Nat_aS> it also provides eye candy
21:29:42  <andythenorth> HEQS forklift isn't available until 1930s
21:29:46  <xiong> Right. I can't wait until I have a game that plays well enough to go past 1900 and get into the later stuff.
21:30:12  * andythenorth has invented something horrible
21:30:14  <xiong> Or actually, I guess I can wait; since I've been playing for years now and still waiting.
21:30:18  <andythenorth> invented / copied from jquery /s
21:32:27  <Nat_aS> Hmm
21:32:40  <Nat_aS> a dockworkers veichile for pre forklift
21:33:04  <Nat_aS> a bunch of tiny 3 px tall men carrying barrels.
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21:44:35  <Jogio>
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21:45:34  <dragonhorseboy> sorry about asking in both rooms there no list somewhere online for the egrvt vehicles?
21:45:54  <planetmaker> there's ingame :-)
21:46:27  <planetmaker> vehicles never expire. start in 2070. And you got all vehicles
21:46:36  <frosch123> night
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21:46:58  <dragonhorseboy> planetmaker and how about a copy for without the game? :)
21:47:07  <Jogio> haha german burocraty has long tradion
21:47:47  <dragonhorseboy> jogio not too surprised
21:47:48  <Jogio> there was a rule which waggon to use when you transport elephants, camels and girafs :-)
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21:48:18  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy, if the related forum thread has none, I don't know. And actually doubt there exists.
21:48:22  <Yexo> dragonhorseboy: this topic lists the vehicles
21:48:26  <Yexo> not sure if all of them are in there though
22:04:52  <dragonhorseboy> hm well looks like a bit of it might be a start....thanks tho
22:04:55  <dragonhorseboy> going for now..have fun :p
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22:05:50  <Wolf01> hello
22:05:57  <planetmaker> hi Wolf01
22:08:09  <Jogio> hi
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22:48:40  <xiong> Nat_aS, congratulations. You have introduced a truly upsetting idea: stevedores. Would you implement them as road vehicles?
22:48:58  <xiong> Oh man. Now I want rickshaws and pedicabs.
22:49:05  <Nat_aS> I already sugested that
22:49:10  <Nat_aS> for an Antiquity Newgrif
22:49:41  <xiong> Nothing antiquated about pedicabs. We have them right here in San Francisco, today.
22:50:01  <Nat_aS> slaves, gold, frankincense, mirth, and silk as cargo types.
22:50:20  <Nat_aS> Slave labor powered vehicles.
22:50:26  <xiong> But now it's time for the grind. See you.
22:56:24  <Nat_aS> Litters
22:56:28  <Nat_aS> that's what I was trying to think of
22:56:36  <Nat_aS> when slaves carry you around on a platform.
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23:06:04  <Wolf01> 'night
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