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00:08:13 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:14:43 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-177-190.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [] 00:14:47 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:15:40 *** namad7 [aaaaa@c-67-163-246-17.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:16:10 *** namad7 [aaaaa@c-67-163-246-17.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 00:19:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't get that CETS compile error... it compiled fine locally, and i didn't change anything even remotely related... 00:21:35 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: NML bug, see #3744 00:24:59 <Eddi|zuHause> aha... 00:27:15 <Eddi|zuHause> unrelated point: it would be nice if the compile error ticket actually contained the last ~10 lines of the build.err.log, so i don't have to click through 20 layers to get to the actual error message, which may have moved or disappeared since the creation of the ticket 00:31:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and i still miss an email-on-commit feature 00:32:16 <michi_cc> RSS feed not enough? 00:35:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have an RSS feed set up 00:37:40 *** chester_ [~chester@95-25-155-158.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:39:24 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 00:43:35 *** namad7 [aaaaa@c-67-163-246-17.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:48:51 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-24-82-112.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:58:55 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:12:05 *** namad7 [aaaaa@c-67-163-246-17.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 01:12:07 *** Firartix [~artixds@38.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:17:51 *** mkv` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 01:23:51 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:24:09 *** KouDy [~KouDy@175.137.96.148] has joined #openttd 01:24:27 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:27:29 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Snail_] 01:56:15 *** s-vektori [s-vektori@tux.fi] has joined #openttd 01:57:23 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 02:03:55 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4db136c8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 02:11:12 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db0fcb1.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:13:56 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4db136c8.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us] 02:15:48 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd 02:24:29 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 02:51:47 *** kkb110__ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 02:51:47 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:01:00 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@d114-78-20-54.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 03:18:28 <Nat_aS> hey the new industries Grif, are there any good scenerios for it? 03:19:04 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:25:15 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 03:47:08 *** Elukka [~Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 03:58:03 *** kkb110__ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:00:48 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:c537:91de:88e0:7d61] has quit [Quit: bye] 04:13:40 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-74-236-118.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 04:14:02 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-74-236-118.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 04:14:13 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 04:32:36 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.124.217.99] has joined #openttd 04:47:25 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:47:34 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 04:52:48 *** Doorslammer [7da86216@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 04:56:15 <Pikka> apparently not 04:57:11 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.124.217.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:59:36 <Nat_aS> :c 04:59:49 * Nat_aS only plays scenarios because random maps are balls 05:01:43 <Eddi|zuHause> so you tried all scenarios from the content download yet? 05:02:21 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-18-20.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 05:02:24 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 05:07:49 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-3-114.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:08:02 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-36-23.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 05:08:05 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 05:11:17 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-18-20.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:18:00 <Nat_aS> no 05:18:04 <Nat_aS> i sould 05:19:33 *** Doorslammer [7da86216@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 05:50:29 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-38-89.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 05:55:33 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B74A5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 05:55:50 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B74086.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:56:14 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-36-23.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:57:06 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-19-239.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:59:22 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-43-55.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 06:02:03 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:02:21 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 06:04:43 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Snail_] 06:07:46 *** Lachie [whitey@creep.bur.st] has joined #openttd 06:11:39 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 06:11:40 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:16:13 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.104.165] has joined #openttd 06:21:04 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-43-55.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:41:17 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:41:39 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 06:53:16 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 07:00:36 <Lachie> Is there any reason why, despite being refitted correctly and having cargo of the correct variety at a station, a train will not load? Just sitting with the "Loading/Unloading" thing in the window 07:02:43 <Nat_aS> not sure 07:03:00 <Nat_aS> If I wanted to be a dick I'd say check aggain. 07:03:10 <Nat_aS> oh, check the trains orders 07:03:28 <Nat_aS> sometimes it might be set to not load, but then it would not be waiting at the station so Idono. 07:04:13 <Lachie> Yeah, it's nothing stupid like that. Potentially may have stuffed something up in the NML that isn't letting it load. 07:04:18 <Rhamphoryncus> does it give a percentage of progress? Is there a timetable setup? 07:04:52 <Lachie> 0%, no timetabling. 07:04:55 <Rhamphoryncus> Does the station supply that cargo type? If you were to rebuild that station does the catchment say it'd be supplied? 07:05:15 <Nat_aS> yeah that caused a problem for me 07:05:17 <Lachie> yes and yes. 07:05:36 <Nat_aS> because I thought I had outrigger stations connected, but they were seperate because I forgot to Ctrl click 07:05:57 <Lachie> after the train's been sent to the station, the cargo has started to build up in it. It's weird. 07:06:18 <Pikka> Lachie: I don't know if it's possible to set the "load amount" property to 0. :D 07:06:26 <Rhamphoryncus> That is weird. Can you screenshot the station with the train's orders showing? 07:06:34 <Nat_aS> wait 07:06:44 <Nat_aS> you can set diffrent load/unload amounts other than full? 07:06:49 <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_aS: no 07:07:10 <Rhamphoryncus> If it's a 1 tile station with a 10 tile train it'd take forever to load 07:07:13 <Nat_aS> aww 07:07:40 <Nat_aS> I mean is it possible for a train to be ordered to only unload part of it's cargo 07:07:46 <Rhamphoryncus> nope 07:07:46 <Pikka> no, it isn't 07:07:52 <Nat_aS> it should be 07:08:01 <Pikka> well you know where the codebase is 07:08:19 <Nat_aS> hurr 07:08:38 * Rhamphoryncus is already knee deep in code related to that ;) 07:09:01 <Pikka> Lachie: can you bung your NML up somewhere? I can see if I can spot anything obvious. :) 07:09:19 <Lachie> just uploading a picture now 07:09:27 <Lachie> Pikka: sure. Just give me a sec. 07:10:54 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:15:21 <Lachie> http://openttd.lachlanstevens.net/notloading.png 07:15:45 *** Twofish [~Twofish@77-95-76-210.bb.cust.hknett.no] has joined #openttd 07:15:49 *** Guest4180 [~macee@dsl51B65E2A.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #openttd 07:15:59 *** Guest4180 is now known as macee 07:16:56 <Nat_aS> who was it who suggested depoting before a station? 07:18:02 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AFE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:18:14 <Lachie> noone. it's set up to take a teaser picture for a set development thread. 07:19:50 <Lachie> It's not meant to be a functional network, just needs to be able to load cargo and move to another location. I don't see what that should have caused a problem though. 07:19:57 <Lachie> *why 07:20:02 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.104.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:20:09 <Rhamphoryncus> Yup, that is weird. Nothing comes to mind. 07:21:37 <Lachie> Pikka: how much of the NML should you need? 07:22:08 <Pikka> just the stuff relating to the wagon 07:25:58 <Pikka> I still suspect it's the load amount property :P 07:26:06 <Lachie> http://pastebin.com/UEkwdyRE 07:26:25 <Lachie> potentially. I haven't explicitly set one. 07:26:46 <peter1138> heh 07:26:52 <peter1138> static dlls that aren't static. crazy. 07:26:58 <Lachie> assuming you're not talking about cargo_capacity 07:27:13 <DDR> Lachie: This is probably a stupid question, but are the train cars refitable? 07:27:38 <Lachie> DDR: yes, they surely are. 07:27:48 <DDR> And are they actually refitted to take sand? 07:28:06 <Pikka> loading_speed: 5; 07:28:09 <DDR> er, stone. 07:28:12 <Pikka> looks like you have to me :) 07:29:14 <Lachie> Pikka: I set that to attempt to rectify the issue. that is the default, is it not? 07:29:50 <Pikka> I'm pretty sure all properties default to 0 for a new ID 07:29:50 <Lachie> DDR: yes. The stone only began to appear in the station window after the train had stopped. 07:30:05 <DDR> Ok, that's all good then. 07:30:40 <DDR> Just had to check. ;) I've been guilty of such a mistake more often than I'll admit; that is to say, not once. 07:32:42 <Lachie> ah. Must have been the not setting the load speed. 07:32:48 <Lachie> seems to work fine on restart. 07:36:20 <Pikka> hooray 07:41:32 *** macee [~macee@dsl51B65E2A.pool.t-online.hu] has left #openttd [] 07:41:53 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:42:20 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 08:01:10 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@d114-78-20-54.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] 08:01:32 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@d114-78-20-54.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 08:18:02 *** Twofish [~Twofish@77-95-76-210.bb.cust.hknett.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:24:46 *** Twofish [~Twofish@77-95-76-210.bb.cust.hknett.no] has joined #openttd 08:29:09 *** Firartix [~artixds@38.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 08:38:40 <andythenorth> o/ Pikka 08:38:52 <Pikka> 'lo bob 08:39:37 <andythenorth> is it done yet? 08:40:21 <Pikka> what's that then? 08:41:17 <andythenorth> the work, all the work, the work 08:42:44 <Pikka> oh 08:42:46 <Pikka> all that 08:42:46 <xiong> Nat_aS, might have been me. I like depoting before a station. I like depoting after a station, too. I like depoting a lot, period. 08:43:11 <Pikka> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dover_Priory_Station,_with_SR_electric_locomotive_geograph-2384023-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg andy 08:43:18 <Pikka> one gusta. 08:43:38 <Pikka> but right now I must dans le shoppe por dinnerables. 08:43:44 <Pikka> berb 08:44:04 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:44:31 <xiong> Nat_aS, If you've got a train full loading and you think it might have to wait for some time, it's very good to depot after. Even better is to make a recirculation route so you don't full load at all; you just load and conditional order the recirculation, with depoting, if not full. 08:49:40 <appe> Pikka: how cute. 08:58:08 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120216100510]] 08:59:33 <andythenorth> baby maintenance - bbl 08:59:35 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 09:03:07 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-120-24.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 09:03:10 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 09:05:12 *** KouDy [~KouDy@175.137.96.148] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:05:46 *** KouDy [~KouDy@175.137.96.148] has joined #openttd 09:08:51 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-154-101.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 09:08:54 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 09:09:06 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-38-89.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:13:04 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-120-24.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:14:19 <peter1138> 12147 petern 20 0 2358m 1.6g 5376 S 1 30.2 179:02.55 monodevelop 09:14:24 <peter1138> mm, bloat :p 09:15:50 <Rhamphoryncus> Anybody know why km-ish/h exists? Why that unit? 09:16:34 *** hbccbh [~hbc@116.27.164.12] has joined #openttd 09:17:33 <peter1138> because that's what ttd used 09:17:50 <Rhamphoryncus> seriously? o.O 09:17:55 <planetmaker> seriously 09:18:09 <planetmaker> moin 09:18:19 <Rhamphoryncus> Given the choice between two units, km/h and mph, they decided to make up a third? 09:18:35 <peter1138> no, they decided to use an approximation 09:19:37 <peter1138> so many MB :( 09:20:07 <Rhamphoryncus> The sane thing to do would be store km/h (or mph) and multiply by 1.6 when displaying as mph. Done. 09:20:08 <planetmaker> opengfx and the 32bpp graphics? 09:20:33 <peter1138> no, the software running on my pc :( 09:20:33 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, and then the speed - possessed people come and give you all the extra digits 09:20:52 <planetmaker> and who says that the specs are sane? 09:21:06 <Rhamphoryncus> the same people that have the wiki claim a tile is 668 km across? 09:21:23 <planetmaker> I doubt any of us developer ever said the specs are sane :-) 09:21:37 <planetmaker> and the scale with 668km accross is correct 09:21:53 <planetmaker> as are many other interpretations of scale 09:22:46 <planetmaker> and... there's little point in questioning them. The reason mostly is 'historical raisins' 09:23:28 <Rhamphoryncus> numerically correct, but completely ludicrous and adds nothing to the game. It's an amusing factoid resulting from the game mechanics, not actually part of the game mechanics 09:23:54 <Rhamphoryncus> The earth would only be 60 tiles. Jupiter would only be 670. 09:23:56 <planetmaker> but essential when writing newgrfs 09:24:04 <Rhamphoryncus> how? 09:24:45 <planetmaker> not the scale in particular. But knowledge of these conversions etc 09:25:01 <Rhamphoryncus> The sun is 2095 tiles, so there's our large map size 09:25:23 <Rhamphoryncus> sure, knowing how they interrelate is important 09:25:31 <peter1138> they're not important at all, that's whole point 09:25:43 <planetmaker> scale indeed is totally unimportant 09:25:51 <Rhamphoryncus> and the reason I'm asking is I've decided to fix a rounding bug in converting between them 09:25:51 <peter1138> knowledge of that fact that you *can't* put a consistent scale on everything is important 09:26:09 <planetmaker> you mean "fix", Rhamphoryncus 09:26:30 <Rhamphoryncus> It'd be nice if the wiki actually said any of that 09:26:37 <planetmaker> you should grep the project's history for when that speed calculation was changed 09:26:40 <Rhamphoryncus> No, as it's a display unit I really do mean hix 09:26:48 <peter1138> problem is many graphics artists don't seem to understand :p 09:26:54 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm talking about the max speed in timetables 09:27:14 <planetmaker> it should be the exact same as the vehicle speed shown when travelling there 09:27:25 <planetmaker> don't ever get started on distance scale. It's ... pointless 09:27:30 <Rhamphoryncus> It is. But it's not the speed that's entered. 09:27:31 <planetmaker> a tile is 5m as it's 668km 09:27:39 <Rhamphoryncus> You enter 112 and it says 111 09:27:42 <planetmaker> and as the scale is arbitrary, the speed wrt tiles is 09:28:10 <planetmaker> a train not necessarily can travel 112 km/h 09:28:23 <planetmaker> due to granularity of the speed property 09:28:30 <Rhamphoryncus> .. that's irrelevant is it not? 09:28:32 <planetmaker> But I don't know. 09:28:37 <planetmaker> It's not 09:28:47 <planetmaker> Thus entering 112 km/h is pointless :-) 09:29:00 <planetmaker> but ok, the user should not care about that 09:29:06 <planetmaker> the trains then just should go 111 km/h 09:29:46 <Rhamphoryncus> Actually that's all we've done in the current openttdcoop game. We chose 111 because that's the displayed speed limit on curves, but if you enter 111 you get 110, if you enter 110 you get 109, etc. So we enter 112 and all is good. 09:29:48 <Lachie> has anyone ever thought of implementing signal rules ala ttdp? 09:30:06 <planetmaker> Lachie, yes 09:30:09 <peter1138> yes 09:30:13 <planetmaker> but the UI sucks 09:30:15 <peter1138> i have a partial patch for it 09:30:18 <peter1138> which doesn't work 09:30:20 <peter1138> i never got that far :p 09:30:46 <Lachie> haha 09:31:06 <planetmaker> well. The issue I'd have is that I'd need to click on each signal to understand the network 09:31:17 <planetmaker> which is... not ideal 09:31:45 <planetmaker> but that's my understanding of being the "major" reason. I may be totally off :-) 09:33:27 <Rhamphoryncus> Anyway, fixing the rounding is in of itself trivial, but the code is going through a couple steps of rounding so I have to decipher them and figure out where to fix 09:35:11 <planetmaker> there's an extra pair of routines SpeedToDisplaySpeed and vice versa 09:35:18 <planetmaker> Spelling may be a bit different 09:35:21 <Rhamphoryncus> yes, looking at them 09:39:10 * Pikka returns 09:39:36 <peter1138> the only way to fix the rounding issues is to introduce non-integer speeds 09:39:43 <Pikka> it's not "km/h ish", it's mph/1.6, and it's that way because chris sawyer was lazy and wanted to be able to type "80" for 80mph :) 09:39:44 <peter1138> (or multiply them) 09:39:53 <Pikka> *mph*1.6 09:40:27 <peter1138> someone decided to change the wording to "km/h ish" :( 09:40:38 <peter1138> i think "mph/1.6" as a unit confused some people 09:41:07 <Rhamphoryncus> No, all I have to do is make sure it rounds to a value that matches what the user entered. Which probably just means rounding up. 09:41:20 <Pikka> pedro, any thoughts on http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5052 09:42:23 <Pikka> it's a little annoying that my variable runningcosts get broken by setting a low speedlimit. :) 09:42:40 * planetmaker welcomes pikka 09:43:23 <Pikka> hello planetmaker 09:43:35 <__ln__> never let an englishman/scotsman/americanman design a system of units. 09:44:06 <Pikka> we never have, __ln__ 09:44:12 <Pikka> we've always left it to the french 09:44:39 <Lachie> damn french 09:44:48 <Rhamphoryncus> UTC was left to the politicians x_x 09:49:04 <Lachie> holy crap, two extra zoom levels. 09:49:28 <Pikka> orly 09:49:48 <Lachie> was unprepared. 09:50:10 <Pikka> it's pretty good, you can actually see the graphics on a high-resolution monitor again 09:50:17 <Pikka> instead of just tiny little moving dots 09:55:24 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-137-89.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 10:01:06 <planetmaker> :-) yeah 10:01:11 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-154-101.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:01:14 <planetmaker> I find the 2x zoom easy on the eye 10:02:26 *** TinoDidriksen [~TinoDidri@alpha.visl.sdu.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:03:04 *** TinoDidriksen [~TinoDidri@alpha.visl.sdu.dk] has joined #openttd 10:06:36 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 10:32:47 <andythenorth> hmm 10:32:55 <andythenorth> way too much scaffolding here: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1155/ 10:33:03 <andythenorth> signal to noise ratio is low in that code 10:33:27 <Rhamphoryncus> yes, I'd say so. 10:33:33 <andythenorth> I could abstract it away to methods, but then you have to read a chain of methods.... 10:33:49 <andythenorth> the only significant things are the numbers 10:34:10 <andythenorth> I could learn how to pass **kwargs etc 10:34:16 <andythenorth> meh 10:34:47 <Rhamphoryncus> You almost want ctx.PixaMixerSequence([(0, 0, 19)]) to be each line 10:35:09 <Rhamphoryncus> and even that can be simplified to f = ctx.PixaMixerSequence; f([(0, 0, 19)]) 10:35:38 <Rhamphoryncus> Don't be afraid to make a disposable local function if it helps 10:36:16 <Rhamphoryncus> def f(seq): return PixaMixer(sequence=PixaSequence(sequence=seq), transform=transform, transform_options=transform_options) 10:36:50 <andythenorth> I was going to do that 10:37:11 <andythenorth> I worry about too much abstraction 10:37:18 <andythenorth> you hit a point where abstraction ~= magic 10:37:22 <andythenorth> for the casual reader 10:39:07 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, but in this case it's a win. Just make sure that function is nested in the current function so it's literally a line above, rather than being buried in the global scope somewhere 10:40:16 <andythenorth> k 10:40:19 <andythenorth> thanks 10:42:04 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can build something with partial() 10:42:34 <Rhamphoryncus> eh, I really dislike partial. It's awkward and confusing. 10:43:22 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it may be shorter than a lamda :) 10:43:22 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: another point: you might be overdoing the keyword arguments 10:43:30 <Rhamphoryncus> I prefer lambda :/ 10:43:41 <andythenorth> I know, but explicit args help me understand what I'm passing 10:45:16 <andythenorth> the biggest problem I have is that constructing a PixaMixer involves rather redundantly constructing and passing a PixaSequence too 10:45:25 <andythenorth> but I figure alberth or someone else will help clean that up later 10:45:47 * andythenorth has been sitting on this for too long and needed to write some code instead of pondering 10:56:11 *** Firartix [~artixds@38.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:01:01 *** Bolli [~Bolli@46.208.33.145] has joined #openttd 11:01:17 <Bolli> hello 11:02:44 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [] 11:03:45 <Bolli> i'm having a few issues with multiplayer in 1.2.0-RC1, can anybody help? 11:04:00 <planetmaker> depends. We do not know your questions or problems 11:04:04 <planetmaker> @topic get -3 11:04:04 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask 11:04:27 <Bolli> its just being very very very slow, and keeps disconnecting 11:04:36 <Bolli> several others playing the game have had the same issue 11:04:39 <planetmaker> sounds like a bad connection of the server then 11:04:42 <Bolli> but some people have been fine 11:04:59 <planetmaker> or a bad connection of the clients. Or clients with insufficient CPU 11:05:18 <Bolli> we've played games ok on older versions in the past... 11:05:38 <planetmaker> CPU load highly depends on map size, vehicle number, NewGRFs,... 11:05:48 <planetmaker> so working with one map is no indicator for working with another 11:05:55 <Bolli> ok.... 11:06:23 <planetmaker> A 2k * 2k map with 2k vehicles brings most computers to loose connection to a server 11:06:42 <planetmaker> even 1k or maybe 500 vehicles might suffice for that map size 11:06:49 <Bolli> theres probably max ~600 vehicls 11:06:51 <Bolli> *vehicles 11:07:07 <planetmaker> well. Check your CPU usage. Mind that openttd only uses one core 11:07:12 <Bolli> and its 2048x2048 11:07:20 <planetmaker> if thus one core is used at 100%, then your machine is too slow 11:07:25 <Bolli> but i can't connect, it instantly jams... :/ 11:07:39 <planetmaker> My computer would have problems to connect there 11:08:17 <planetmaker> thus on the coop servers we usually use maps in the range 500x500 tiles 11:08:22 <planetmaker> thus 0.25 Mega-Tiles 11:08:37 <Bolli> ok, yes it instantly jumps to 50% CPU 11:08:44 <Bolli> so one processor 11:08:45 <planetmaker> on a dual core, I assume? 11:08:48 <Bolli> yep 11:08:48 <planetmaker> yeah. 11:09:28 <planetmaker> This low amount of max vehicles is the main reason to not use that big maps on MP servers 11:09:45 <planetmaker> Or most clients won't enjoy the game past the initial stages or the mid-game stage 11:10:08 <Bolli> 456 vehicles in total 11:10:18 <Bolli> mostly trains 11:10:33 <planetmaker> You could enable "pause on join" on the server. Maybe that helps to delay the limit a bit 11:10:40 <planetmaker> if that isn't enabled already 11:10:41 <Bolli> ok 11:10:43 <Bolli> thanks 11:10:47 <Bolli> no i don't think it is... 11:11:51 <planetmaker> mind that it's a server-side setting. Thus you need to have at least rcon to the server. 11:12:13 <Bolli> yeah, i'm going to get somebody with rcon access to do it 11:21:51 <Bolli> the next question i have, is how can i query a server to see if its running? (for a web site uptime indicator) 11:24:08 <planetmaker> search for OpenTTDlib 11:24:10 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@92.195.31.253] has joined #openttd 11:24:13 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 11:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is there any dd-like tool that i can give a rate limit? 11:25:11 <Bolli> thank you planetmaker 11:25:43 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: local disk I/O? 11:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: yes 11:26:18 <SpComb> ionice or somesuch 11:26:45 <SpComb> assuming you want to rate-limit to not slow down everything else 11:27:01 <SpComb> implying you really just want to tweak your kernel's I/O scheduler :) 11:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well the actual problem is this: since my last system update, my computer locks up when copying large files (~>200MB-ish) to a slow drive (where "slow" is slower than the source drive) and "lock up" means "doesn't react to keyboard or mouse events" 11:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody i asked has even a clue how to diagnose this 11:29:36 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-137-89.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:29:44 <SpComb> copying files (cp) or block devices (dd)? 11:29:52 <planetmaker> Have you tried `rsync --bwlimit` or `pv -L` ? as quote from http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-coreutils/2009-12/msg00208.html 11:31:03 <planetmaker> of course you could also try to nice it more 11:32:23 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: both 11:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: and also heavy IO operations like "make -j12" 11:32:54 <SpComb> is the target/write disk some USB disk? 11:33:04 <Eddi|zuHause> (it's fine with -j5 or -j6, but it definitely was better before) 11:33:18 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: yes, but doesn't matter 11:33:51 *** TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:35:19 *** Elukka [~Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 11:35:32 <peter1138> i've noticed IO is blocking a lot these days 11:37:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the update was from 2.6.37 to 3.1, but further updating to 3.2 didn't help 11:38:02 *** TheMask96 [martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 11:39:03 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's annoying as hell when you want to copy a file that takes half an hour, and you can't use your 6-core computer anymore... 11:40:45 <SpComb> sounds buggy 11:41:04 <SpComb> some regression in the IO scheduler when write queues/buffers fill up 11:41:25 <SpComb> maybe try switching to a different IO scheduler? 11:41:29 <SpComb> not sure how easy that really is 11:41:41 <SpComb> might be some boot-time kernel argument 11:42:03 <Eddi|zuHause> tried that 11:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> echo noop > /sys/block/sdf/queue/scheduler 11:42:17 <SpComb> hm 11:42:40 <SpComb> a bug in the USB driver? 11:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause> happens with SATA disks as well 11:43:23 <SpComb> and even with `dd if=/dev/sdXY of=/dev/sdZX`? 11:43:31 <SpComb> i.e. direct block device read/write? 11:43:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no spare disk to try that 11:44:34 <SpComb> does it recover from the lockup? 11:44:43 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, when the write is done 11:45:04 <SpComb> you'd have to ask the kernel team how to diagnose it 11:45:12 <andythenorth> hmm 11:45:16 <SpComb> but by that point you'd probably find the existing bug report or somesuch :) 11:46:22 <SpComb> I just upgraded some systems to 3.0, 3.2, haven't noticed any issues myself yet 11:47:37 <SpComb> (Ubuntu 11.10, Debian wheezy/testing) 11:47:53 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db136c8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:48:40 <andythenorth> meh 11:48:58 <andythenorth> extensible systems with defined interfaces demand a lot more scaffolding :P 11:49:22 <andythenorth> 'my code varies for every case and is entirely custom' has less scaffolding :P 12:03:47 * andythenorth wonders wtf lambda is for anyway 12:04:01 <Eddi|zuHause> lambda is an "inline-def" 12:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause> "def f(x): return a*x" is the same as "f = lambda x: a*x" 12:05:13 <andythenorth> so lambda is just more compact in that case? 12:05:18 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 12:05:39 * andythenorth is trying to pass functions with args to another function 12:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can put lambdas into expressions, function calls, etc. 12:05:54 <andythenorth> lambda was suggested as one solution, partial() as another 12:06:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: seen my for_all_vehicles() function? 12:06:37 <andythenorth> no 12:06:40 <andythenorth> which file? 12:06:44 <Eddi|zuHause> in generate.py 12:07:29 <andythenorth> foreach_vehicle ? 12:07:40 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 12:10:29 * andythenorth reads 12:10:35 <andythenorth> partial() might do what I need 12:10:45 <Eddi|zuHause> partial works like this: you have a function f(a,b) and turn it into partal(f,a)(b) 12:11:04 *** Bolli [~Bolli@46.208.33.145] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:11:08 <andythenorth> (f,a)(b) ? 12:11:20 *** smoovi [~smoovi@e178198127.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 12:11:21 <Rhamphoryncus> lambda and partial have the disadvantage of not being named in tracebacks 12:11:30 <Eddi|zuHause> partial(f,a) returns a function that consumes one further argument (b) 12:12:31 <andythenorth> so my code can pass an optional transform function to the renderer 12:12:33 <Eddi|zuHause> "partial(f,a)" is short for "lambda b: f(a,b)" 12:12:50 <andythenorth> the transform can be specified when making the call to the renderer 12:12:57 <andythenorth> as can the options for the specific transform 12:13:01 <andythenorth> partial might do that 12:13:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yup 12:13:30 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.124.217.99] has joined #openttd 12:13:36 <Eddi|zuHause> might have to read up whether partial can work with keyword-args, but i assume it should... 12:13:42 <andythenorth> docs imply yes 12:13:44 <andythenorth> so I have 'colour_shift(shift_amount)' 12:14:01 <andythenorth> transform = partial(colourshift, 1) 12:14:32 <andythenorth> rather than 12:14:34 <andythenorth> transform = colour_shift, transform_options = {'shift_amount' : 1} 12:17:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah 12:20:46 <Pikka> hmm 12:21:18 <andythenorth> mmm? 12:21:30 <Pikka> the Class 71 is too good 12:21:43 <Pikka> none of its drawbacks apply to TTD. D: 12:21:59 <andythenorth> just give it a short life 12:22:02 <andythenorth> or awful reliability :P 12:22:12 <andythenorth> or make it expensive to run (maintenance cost) 12:22:12 <Pikka> well, they had very good reliability :P 12:22:29 <Pikka> and it will have a short model life (although not as short as the real thing) 12:22:34 <andythenorth> why were they withdrawn? 12:23:05 <andythenorth> also...ach. It's a game, not Trainz :) 12:23:17 <Pikka> well, I like the set to be balanced and moderately realistic :P 12:23:43 <Pikka> it's such a useful loco that it seems almost a shame to withdraw it around 2000, especially with nothing comparable to replace it 12:24:06 <Pikka> they were surplus IRL because they were no better than EMUs for passenger work 12:24:16 <andythenorth> I am finding with trucks that I need some way to slightly cripple them 12:24:25 <andythenorth> and I haven't found a way :P 12:24:35 <Pikka> and it turned out that 3rd rail overnight freight wasn't such a good idea because they always did trackwork (which meant switching off the power) at night 12:24:48 <Ammler> is it possible to have balanced and realistic set? 12:25:04 <Pikka> more or less, ammler 12:25:05 <andythenorth> it's kind of hard to get operational details into TTD 12:25:06 <Ammler> don't those exclude themself? 12:25:15 <Pikka> anyway, I'll just leave it as is 12:25:23 <andythenorth> 'this truck has a double-strength frame and will survive hauling rocks' 12:25:27 <andythenorth> doesn't really translate 12:25:27 <Pikka> and withdraw in 2000 :) rather later than the real thing. 12:25:31 <Pikka> lol 12:25:34 <Pikka> true 12:25:50 <Pikka> but then HEQS was always a bit out there 12:26:10 <andythenorth> this is more BANDIT ;) 12:26:45 <andythenorth> 'this truck is short and easy to get into shop loading bays' 12:26:50 <andythenorth> also doesn't really translate 12:27:29 <Pikka> well, it does insofar as "short" = "non-articulated" 12:27:38 <andythenorth> fair point 12:27:44 <andythenorth> the ruling heuristics seem to be 'fastest' or 'largest' though 12:27:54 <andythenorth> it's your deltic problem :P 12:28:02 <andythenorth> repeated ad ininiftum 12:28:04 <andythenorth> also 12:28:18 <andythenorth> Pikka Pikka, the PAX capacity of your Deltic is too low!!! 12:28:27 <andythenorth> it should have at least 9,000 PAX 12:28:54 <andythenorth> (with a parameter) 12:28:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i now remounted the drive with -o sync (disable write cache), and the lockup is (temporarily) gone 12:29:49 <Eddi|zuHause> but writing is like 1/10th of the speed 12:30:49 * andythenorth suspects a pixel generator at work here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17156036 12:38:13 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: that's actually pretty nifty 12:40:09 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 12:42:21 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 12:43:47 <andythenorth> hmm 12:44:07 <andythenorth> partial works, but I need to add extra args when I actually call the target function 12:44:11 <andythenorth> confusing :P 12:44:53 *** hbccbh [~hbc@116.27.164.12] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:49:18 *** hbccbh [~hbc@183.34.137.23] has joined #openttd 12:54:53 <andythenorth> bbl 12:54:59 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 12:55:28 *** hbccbh [~hbc@183.34.137.23] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:56:51 *** hbccbh [~hbc@119.133.241.9] has joined #openttd 13:02:21 *** hbccbh [~hbc@119.133.241.9] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 13:02:37 *** hbccbh [~hbc@119.133.241.9] has joined #openttd 13:05:17 *** Firartix [~artixds@38.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 13:05:52 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-85-56.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 13:08:24 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:38ac:7e24:6dec:901e] has joined #openttd 13:08:27 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:11:32 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-80-67.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 13:11:35 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 13:11:41 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@92.195.31.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:13:49 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-85-56.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:14:19 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-177-190.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 13:14:39 <Eddi|zuHause> bah this is totally stupid... wait half an hour with no access to the computer, or wait half a day until copying finished... 13:14:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i now put the usb device on another computer and transfer the fucking thing via network... 13:15:17 <SpComb> heh :) 13:15:46 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-37-183.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 13:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... how can i persuade dd to output the stats in 1024 instead of 1000? 13:19:31 <Eddi|zuHause> 533807104 Bytes (534 MB) kopiert, 314,336 s, 1,7 MB/s <-- this is silly 13:20:55 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-80-67.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:22:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23995 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix [FS#5079]: Improve rounding when converting display speeds to internal speeds. 13:27:00 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-58-201.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 13:27:03 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 13:27:41 <Rhamphoryncus> woot, patch accepted :D 13:30:19 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-37-183.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:33:31 <planetmaker> I'd say it's not your patch ;-) 13:33:38 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd 13:41:42 <Rhamphoryncus> no? 13:42:08 * Rhamphoryncus must go look now :/ 13:43:43 <Rhamphoryncus> Wow, a hack, classy :P 13:50:28 <Rhamphoryncus> Now I get to spend even more time re-deciphering the code and checking if it actually works 13:57:53 <planetmaker> you show a remarkable respect for other people's work ;-) 13:58:11 <Rhamphoryncus> Well I basically got insulted about my work 13:58:24 <planetmaker> you did? 13:58:29 <planetmaker> where? 13:58:53 <Rhamphoryncus> I spent an hour or two fixing something that wasn't supposed to be possible. I submitted a patch. As a result the patch was ignored and another done in its place 13:58:58 <Rhamphoryncus> No thanks, no response at all. 14:00:38 <__ln__> Rhamphoryncus: did you expect something else then? 14:00:52 <Rhamphoryncus> __ln__: some sort of social skill? 14:01:00 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Snail_] 14:01:33 <__ln__> Rhamphoryncus: that's not part of OTTD's patch acceptance process. 14:01:59 <Rhamphoryncus> It's pretty sparse all over :( 14:03:21 <planetmaker> social skill is not an immediate requirement. Obviously also not for writing patches, though ;-) 14:03:34 <Rhamphoryncus> feh 14:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> "how to go from excitement to 'i'll never do anything for you guys again' in 30 minutes" 14:04:08 <Rhamphoryncus> Okay, I really do have to ask. How many people around here have aspergers? 14:04:20 <planetmaker> how should we know? 14:04:37 <planetmaker> and how does it matter at all? 14:04:55 <Rhamphoryncus> Because I've seen people joke that you do, and it would explain a lot 14:05:09 <Rhamphoryncus> Also, I've been enduring this for over a month, not 30 minutes. 14:05:20 <planetmaker> I start to pity you 14:06:02 <planetmaker> But from what I saw all people seem quite normal with the usual expected nerd tendency :-P 14:06:31 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, they're normal in that they fit the stereotype perfectly 14:06:59 <planetmaker> If that suits your need for stereotypes. Then please, use that 14:07:22 <Rhamphoryncus> I should point out that I have aspergers :P 14:07:39 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm not trying to stereotype. I'm just trying to understand what's going on around here. 14:07:44 <planetmaker> Honestly: I don't care 14:07:57 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, there is that. 14:08:10 <michi_cc> Rhamphoryncus: Would you have been happier if I had told you "Thanks for the patch, but it's not acceptable" first? 14:08:18 <Rhamphoryncus> Yes, actually 14:08:28 <Rhamphoryncus> You could have followed that with an explanation of why 14:08:30 <planetmaker> But one requirement generally needed is: accepting other solutions and the fact that often many are a valid solution and even also often those might be better in hindsight 14:08:58 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, and you didn't even ask. But immediately started to bitch 14:09:13 <planetmaker> And that's... something which is unlikely to give you usually a useful explanation at all 14:09:22 <Belugas> hello 14:09:40 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm perfectly capable of accepting other valid solutions. I'll accept that one once I've verified it's correct. 14:10:04 <planetmaker> you also gotta live with the fact that patches are submitted without your verification done 14:10:13 <Rhamphoryncus> Of course 14:11:22 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-73-178.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 14:11:35 <michi_cc> After-the-fact explanation: The whole point of To/FromDisplay is to have a single place where unit conversion is performed, so duplicating that code (again) instead of just fixing the functions is not acceptable. 14:11:59 <Rhamphoryncus> Single place, yes. However, your caller is doing a *16/10 conversion too 14:13:39 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: I didn't bitch until after I realized I'd been suckered. 14:14:11 <planetmaker> no, you haven't. you take something personal which absolutely has nothing to do with you 14:14:37 <planetmaker> the aim is always good quality code. And the better is the enemy of the good 14:14:46 <planetmaker> Personal animosity has little place there 14:16:53 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, I made the mistake of bitching where you all could see. 14:17:50 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:20:08 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 14:22:58 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@56.Red-88-19-214.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 14:23:56 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@56.Red-88-19-214.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 14:24:40 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@56.Red-88-19-214.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 14:29:46 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 14:32:06 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 14:37:37 *** a2A209_ [45ee324a@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 14:38:21 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@56.Red-88-19-214.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:48:54 <Pikka> goodnight wallyweb 14:48:55 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@d114-78-20-54.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] 14:59:02 *** kkb110__ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 14:59:02 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:01:27 *** smoovi [~smoovi@e178198127.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:03:01 *** smoovi [~smoovi@e178198127.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 15:03:48 *** a2A209_ [45ee324a@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 15:15:50 *** kkb110__ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:17:42 *** Doorslammer [7da861ac@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 15:18:56 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.4.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 15:18:57 <Rhamphoryncus> michi_cc: I misread your code. It's not a hack. Sorry. 15:27:24 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:29:45 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:29:52 *** Belugas [~belugas@96.243.16.138] has joined #openttd 15:29:55 *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ 15:46:25 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-73-178.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:48:24 *** kkb110__ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:51:06 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:51:31 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd0c4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 15:52:17 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 15:59:25 <peter1138> herpderp 15:59:38 <Rhamphoryncus> merpaderp? 15:59:43 <peter1138> don't be silly 15:59:55 <peter1138> who's ever heard of such a thing 16:08:32 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 16:13:15 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 16:13:19 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-21-153.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 16:18:04 *** Doorslammer [7da861ac@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 16:18:37 <Nat_aS> xiong you still there? 16:19:01 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-138-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 16:19:04 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 16:19:05 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-58-201.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:21:28 *** Avenger [~rafinha21@186.213.140.3] has joined #openttd 16:21:32 *** Avenger [~rafinha21@186.213.140.3] has left #openttd [] 16:22:35 *** Avenger [~rafinha21@186.213.140.3] has joined #openttd 16:23:07 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-21-153.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:23:13 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:24:44 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-163-151.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 16:28:38 <xiong> Nat_aS, hi. 16:30:35 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-138-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:30:39 *** Avenger [~rafinha21@186.213.140.3] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:40:02 <Nat_aS> oh hi 16:40:09 <Nat_aS> I was gonna say I tried pre-depoting 16:40:12 <Nat_aS> it's strange 16:40:15 <xiong> What can I do for you, Sir? 16:40:36 <xiong> What happened? 16:40:42 <Nat_aS> it allows me to overclock my networks, but I don't see much benifit because trains waiting are trains useless 16:41:03 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, overflows are like that 16:41:08 <xiong> The point of depoting before stations is not to cram more trains through the network. It's to avoid breakdowns. 16:41:19 <Nat_aS> the only time I'd think it would be usefull is if I had a small network with no room, but had to carry more types of cargo than could be normaly allowed. 16:41:26 *** macee [~macee@dsl5402C767.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #openttd 16:41:44 <Nat_aS> there will always be one extra train in the depot 16:41:50 <xiong> You can also avoid breakdowns with depots after stations and mainline depots. There's a specific advantage to depoting *before* a station, though. 16:41:54 <Nat_aS> won't maintain as normal do that though? 16:42:03 <Nat_aS> how? 16:42:19 <Nat_aS> I thought it was just to prevent overflows because it won't leave the depot untill a platform was clear 16:42:39 *** macee [~macee@dsl5402C767.pool.t-online.hu] has left #openttd [] 16:42:41 *** macee [~macee@dsl5402C767.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #openttd 16:43:03 <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_aS: in theory. In practice they usually have the opposite effect. 16:43:32 <xiong> If a train is not ordered to depot then it will seek a depot when its maint interval comes up. If the nearest depot is *after* the next station, the train will blow through the statinon without stopping and depot... then look to make the station, which is already past. Unless it can recirculate, this can be messy. Worst case, it goes all the way back to the origin before returning. 16:43:40 <Rhamphoryncus> Depots limit train speed, which limits throughput, and their position at the side means their path can cut across the entire station, preventing anything else from entering/exiting 16:44:00 <Nat_aS> that's why I use maintain if needer orders instead of the interval 16:44:11 <Nat_aS> and place the order between every station 16:44:20 <Nat_aS> so the depot after the station on the way to the next one. 16:44:26 <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_aS: maintain if needed still uses the interval. It just regulates when the interval is checked. 16:44:38 <xiong> Rhamphoryncus is correct. I find this much less of an issue, playing with 1850-era trains; since they're slow anyway. The depot speed limit isn't much less than the train's top speed. 16:44:48 <andythenorth> so this is a bit better than the clunky paste from earlier today: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1156/ 16:44:53 <andythenorth> but still clunky 16:45:18 <xiong> Nat_aS, if you explicitly order your trains to depot then you will not see the blow-by issue come up. 16:45:28 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: I'm too tired to read it now :/ 16:45:38 <Nat_aS> well the way I have it, i have never seen that happen 16:45:53 <xiong> In fact, if you order depoting, anywhere in schedule, then the vehicle will never depot by itself. 16:46:14 <Rhamphoryncus> My refinement on depots before the station is to have a waypoint immediately before the depot. That way they decide if they need to service just before the station, rather than when leaving the previous station. 16:46:34 <xiong> If you order your trains around from station to station only then you will see blow-by. 16:46:50 <Nat_aS> no, I put depots on both sides of the station 16:47:00 <Nat_aS> so the start to exit the station, then check to see if they need to depot 16:47:04 <Nat_aS> and if they do, it's right there 16:47:13 <Nat_aS> and on the other side too if they are going the other way 16:47:26 <Nat_aS> usualy 4 depots per station so they can go left or right if the way is blocked 16:47:31 <xiong> Right. If you put depots on either side then you are covered. 16:47:45 <Nat_aS> sometimes Even 6 depots in my omega type stations 16:47:58 <Nat_aS> I'm not totaly sure omega stations are a good idea though. 16:48:07 <xiong> Link? 16:48:30 <Nat_aS> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24299180/OTTD/Black%20%26%20Co.%2C%207th%20Aug%201951.png 16:49:10 <xiong> I've done something like that with even more depots. 16:49:30 <xiong> Shall I post my most successful station? 16:49:43 <Nat_aS> oh this is just an example, my actual omega type stations are bigger 16:49:44 <xiong> It's a dead-ender, not a through. 16:49:48 <Nat_aS> but this shows how it scales up 16:49:56 <Nat_aS> I have never had to build a bidirectonal omega 16:50:30 <Nat_aS> but if I did I supose I'd call it a Psi maybe? 16:50:36 <xiong> Shall I post? I really should, I suppose, do a real wiki post on it but... not today. I'll show you, though. 16:50:42 <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_aS: "ultimate" is a tad presumptuous ;) 16:50:47 <Nat_aS> I might revise my naming scheme. 16:50:53 <Nat_aS> it's the ultimate using my technique. 16:51:18 <Rhamphoryncus> ahh. Literal ultimate. Odd to see it used. ;) 16:52:32 <Nat_aS> if I became comfotable with a new station type I would probably pick a new naming scheme 16:52:43 <Nat_aS> but I think i'd have to learn to use more complex signals for that 16:52:53 <Nat_aS> sure post yours 16:52:55 *** Twofish [~Twofish@77-95-76-210.bb.cust.hknett.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:54:52 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 16:54:52 <V453000> what are the depots good for? refit? 16:55:03 <Nat_aS> maintenance 16:55:12 <Nat_aS> keep your trains from breaking down 16:55:12 *** kkb110__ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:55:24 <Nat_aS> also turning around 16:55:29 <V453000> turn breakdowns off :) they just make the game too stupidly easy anyway 16:55:52 <Nat_aS> well they are still good for turning road viechiles around. 16:56:03 <V453000> trains ca 16:56:09 <V453000> trains can turn around in the station? 16:56:21 <Nat_aS> only if you set it 16:56:28 <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_aS: you can just make a T with no road attached. Road vehicles will turn around 16:56:33 <Nat_aS> my station designs alow them to reverse naturally though. 16:57:10 <Nat_aS> Rhamphoryncus if you want to reduce your footprint and are working on city roads, depots are the best way to turn them around without them going halfway across town looking for a loop or dead end. 16:57:39 <V453000> road vehicles perhasp 16:57:41 <Rhamphoryncus> ... make a T. In a single tile. It's a dead end with 0 size. 16:57:44 <V453000> perhaps 16:57:56 <V453000> yes but they have to see it as the only path 16:58:09 <V453000> and well, takes ages for trains to "reverse" through a depot 16:58:20 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm talking about road vehicles, yes 16:58:52 <Nat_aS> yeah, why my stations allow natural reversing. 16:59:29 <Nat_aS> i didn't even plan for that, but I got so happy when I saw them making full 180 turns normaly without having to do the 90 angle thing. 17:00:13 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-221-36.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 17:00:17 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 17:00:26 <V453000> silly 17:00:45 <V453000> also they should prefer to turn around in the station instead of going to the depot first 17:01:53 <V453000> like going back through any empty platform there is 17:02:16 <V453000> and perhaps even wait for it if the penalty for a depot is higher 17:02:20 <V453000> I mean a lot higher :) 17:02:29 <Nat_aS> oh they do turn throguh emptey platforms 17:02:51 <Nat_aS> in fact I like to leave emptey track in the center of the station for through traffic and turnarounds 17:04:13 <V453000> I think a normal terminus station would have been much smaller and much less messy 17:04:30 <xiong> Nat_aS, http://wiki.openttd.org/Image:Athens.png 17:06:40 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-163-151.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:06:52 <Nat_aS> insufficient platforms :P 17:07:05 <Nat_aS> You use the depots as holding bays? 17:07:07 <Nat_aS> anyways I gotta go 17:08:01 <xiong> Well, 4 platforms is usually enough for me, given long trains. The design can be extended to any length, of course. 17:08:53 <xiong> The depots are there, as I said, to force depoting before entering station; and also to make the reverse. I'm unconcerned with the time it takes to depot; I say that needs to happen anyway. 17:09:44 <V453000> not necessarily 17:09:55 <V453000> you can force trains to depot only when really needed 17:10:06 <V453000> like: if there is enough platforms empty, trains do not have to depot 17:10:08 <xiong> I do worry that one train may be delayed, waiting for another to enter/exit depot. You'll find that Athens pretty much avoids this due to choice of depots. I've often seen 3 trains at once going in and out of depot. 17:10:37 <xiong> V453000, we're all different. I like lots of depoting; breakdowns annoy me. 17:11:07 <xiong> For me, high speed is just not an issue. Backups and jams are. 17:11:53 <V453000> breakdowns should be imo turned off :) 17:11:58 <xiong> No station design will satisfy all needs. This has worked well enough for me for a long time; but I'm still experimenting. 17:12:01 <V453000> you cant ever prevent them from breaking down anyway 17:12:18 <xiong> Ha ha, no breakdowns. That would make it too easy. 17:12:50 <V453000> vice versa actually 17:12:50 <xiong> No, you can't. I'm frequently annoyed by the sight of a train breaking down on its way out of depot. 17:12:55 <V453000> which is shown on your station 17:13:07 <xiong> ? 17:13:15 <V453000> you do not need a better design because you have breakdowns. if you didnt have breakdowns, you would need a better station 17:13:21 <V453000> which part makes the game harder? 17:13:31 <xiong> Ha ha! 17:13:55 <xiong> See, it's all a matter of viewpoint. I think it's a great station... for my needs. 17:14:23 <V453000> or more generally. Breakdowns make sure that no line can have 100% throughput. Therefore everything that is absolutely anywhere on the network does not have to be "ideal" 17:14:37 <V453000> viewpoint, sure, but breakdowns really do not make the game harder :) 17:14:45 <xiong> If you have no breakdowns then I don't see there's any design worries at all. Just put down plenty of platforms with some interlocking; done. 17:14:49 <Rhamphoryncus> Slower, not harder? 17:15:02 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: you have not build a network with a thousand trains, have you? 17:15:12 <xiong> I mean, without breakdowns, how can you fail? 17:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause> breakdowns make the game more annoying 17:15:18 <Eddi|zuHause> not harder 17:15:37 <xiong> Ho ho. A thousand would be unmanageable, at least on the size maps I play. 17:15:39 <Rhamphoryncus> Breakdowns just slow you down. They don't make you fail. 17:15:40 <V453000> xiong: the station can simply jam :) 17:15:44 <Eddi|zuHause> it would make it "harder" only if there were game mechanics to prevent them 17:15:55 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: exactly 17:15:56 <Rhamphoryncus> Eddi: exactly 17:16:07 <Eddi|zuHause> or deal with them like passing tracks, etc. 17:16:12 <xiong> How can a station jam if no breakdowns? Just add more platforms. 17:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but those don't exist 17:16:27 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: what's your map size? 17:16:33 <xiong> Very quickly, you won't be able to feed trains in any faster than the station can accept them. 17:16:47 <xiong> 256 square. 17:16:49 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: we build better stations and handle the load. 17:16:57 <V453000> yes sure, you usually can expand any station somehow. But then you start thinking if there isnt any better way to do it 17:17:20 <Eddi|zuHause> assuming you take only the "best" engine, all your vehicles break down on average the same amount in a year. no variation possible whatsoever 17:17:21 <Rhamphoryncus> A thousand is doable I suspect. V, voice of experience? 17:17:26 <xiong> "Better" is one of those hinge words. Not everyone will agree. 17:17:28 <Rhamphoryncus> doable on 256x256 17:17:35 <V453000> 256*256? we had 1800 TL2 trains 17:17:55 <xiong> Doable perhaps, dunno. Manageable is another thing. 17:18:10 <Rhamphoryncus> They manage. 17:18:11 <V453000> 1000 on that map size is a lot though 17:18:12 <V453000> still. 17:18:20 <xiong> I spend a lot of time between 1850-80. 17:18:49 <andythenorth> is passing **args or **keywords wise? 17:18:50 <xiong> I think that long before you hit a thousand trains, you will have all industries linked. 17:18:54 <andythenorth> it always seems like mystery meat to me 17:19:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: depends on the situation, really 17:19:11 <Rhamphoryncus> I fully intend to try a game with grasshoppers, but that may be nostalgia.. and insanity. 17:19:16 <xiong> When I have all industries and towns linked, I consider it a win, done. 17:19:27 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: industries do increase in volume.. 17:19:52 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: what Eddi said ;) 17:19:54 <andythenorth> the current situation I am likely to end up creating a stubby class before the call, then passing the class 17:19:56 <xiong> Well, I wouldn't require that all cargo be transported. I don't think that's ever feasible. 17:20:05 <andythenorth> which seems like **keywords might apply 17:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: on the calling side, i only use it in the foreach_vehicle function because it's very generic. on the callee-side i use it to say "i don't care about the other args" 17:20:17 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: sounds like 17:20:17 <xiong> ... not within my constraints. 17:20:37 <V453000> xiong: connecting everything without transporting any cargo isnt quite a win for me :D 17:20:44 <Rhamphoryncus> certainly not with breakdowns getting in the way :D 17:20:59 <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: gotta crank it up to 9000 ;) 17:21:04 <xiong> V453000, that's hardly fair. There's a big gap between none and all. 17:21:22 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-60-132.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 17:22:54 <V453000> 9000 of? :d 17:23:10 <andythenorth> so I have a transform function that's called near the end of my call chain; it can be a custom function specified further up the chain. 17:23:24 <V453000> xiong: but the logic is similar :) When your network is transporiting 50% of all mines, it technically connects only 50% of them 17:23:28 <andythenorth> the author might have valid reasons for the transform to access vars from anywhere in the call chain 17:23:34 <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: production? 17:23:39 <andythenorth> including passed from first call 17:23:50 <V453000> Rhamphoryncus: perhaps secondaries, not mines :) 17:23:52 <andythenorth> which makes me think of **args or **keywords 17:24:00 <xiong> You're just not going to let me enjoy playing, eh? 17:24:01 <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: well not a single mine, no. 17:24:13 <Rhamphoryncus> That'd take at least 3 ;) 17:24:26 * Rhamphoryncus looks to see if V twitches 17:24:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: **kwargs is an easy way of passing arbitrary parameters through some intermediate glue code 17:25:26 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, gtg 17:25:41 <andythenorth> k thanks 17:25:51 <andythenorth> or I construct my own obj and pass it along 17:26:04 <andythenorth> which is kind of elegant, but same effect as **kwargs I suspect 17:27:08 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah. Sometimes an explicit dict is better though. 17:27:10 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-221-36.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:27:59 <Rhamphoryncus> If you're using **kwargs for the caller and **kwargs for the callee and there isn't an external API to follow.. it's a hint that you want a dictionary, not arguments 17:32:33 <andythenorth> hmm 17:32:38 <andythenorth> I canned my dict earlier :( 17:32:41 <andythenorth> ho hum 17:32:51 <andythenorth> I thought passing a dict wasn't leet enough :P 17:32:56 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.183.50] has joined #openttd 17:32:58 <andythenorth> seems like an andythenorth type solution :) 17:35:15 <andythenorth> nearly all my code is dicts 17:35:35 <andythenorth> whenever I see real code, it seems to rely a lot on knowing the position of entries in lists 17:35:42 <andythenorth> which I can never remember :P 17:37:04 *** Enoria [~Enoria@albaldah.dreamhost.com] has joined #openttd 17:39:52 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6D6AD.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:41:51 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 17:42:34 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has joined #openttd 17:48:11 *** _maddy [~plaiho@182.21.240.77.static.louhi.net] has joined #openttd 17:48:19 <_maddy> hi folks 17:48:36 * andythenorth might be doing this all wrong 17:48:39 <andythenorth> nvm 17:48:55 <_maddy> I have one question regarding industry production changes 17:49:17 <andythenorth> ... :) 17:49:38 <_maddy> my experience is that industries always increase production more if I have cargo lying around at station, but less if I transport everything and always have a train waiting/loading 17:50:38 <andythenorth> the code would know the answer 17:50:58 <andythenorth> let's see 17:51:16 <_maddy> I have read the paragraph at http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics 17:52:42 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 17:52:45 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 17:52:59 <Alberth> moin 17:53:32 <_maddy> hi alberth, do you know how industry production changes are affected by how well the station is served? leaving goods in station vs always having a train loading 17:54:44 <andythenorth> l2543 in industry_cmd.cpp 17:54:53 <andythenorth> /* If more than 60% transported, 66% chance of increase, else 33% chance of increase */ 17:55:15 <andythenorth> applies to non-smooth economy 17:55:25 <andythenorth> hmm 17:55:34 <andythenorth> this code is multi-faceted 17:55:44 * andythenorth can't be bothered to read all the logic - sorry 17:56:40 <_maddy> I'm looking at the code too 17:57:34 <andythenorth> _maddy: industry_cmd.cpp has been proven to contain bugs in the past 17:57:51 <andythenorth> logical fallacy kind of things rather than code errors 17:57:51 <Alberth> http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics is what I usually recommend 17:58:00 <planetmaker> that can be said of every file, andythenorth 17:58:25 <_maddy> I've read the wiki, and it doesn't clearly state it but has this sentence: 17:58:28 <andythenorth> industry_cmd is just a bit prone to it, because of multiple economy settings, industry types etc 17:58:32 <_maddy> For more responsiveness from industries, adapt the number of wagons to industry production (for the lowest production, you should use two wagons). 17:58:49 <andythenorth> meh 17:58:58 <andythenorth> that takes no account of industry newgrfs or vehicle newgrfs :P 17:59:21 <_maddy> I don't even understand what that means, "more responsiveness" 17:59:22 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:00:06 <Alberth> _maddy: the game mechanics page seems to have item lists with percentages 18:00:14 <xiong> _maddy, Um, I consider that sentence to be a bit of a weasel. 18:00:48 <Alberth> _maddy: near "Smooth Economy Rules" 18:00:59 <_maddy> Alberth: yes, I am reading it 18:01:24 <xiong> If you have a (standard) industry producing a small amount of cargo then the way to increase production is with frequent service. If you use "full load" then you want to fill your trains quickly and get out; so you want very short trains. 18:02:14 <andythenorth> I'm not even sure it's true 18:02:16 <xiong> If you just load what you can and go then it doesn't matter how long your trains are. But of course, long trains will leave mostly empty. 18:02:40 <xiong> andythenorth, Well, I always play FIRS so I can't say certainly. 18:02:48 <_maddy> xiong: so it's better to have more short trains than few long trains (assuming both have full load order) 18:03:16 <xiong> _maddy, as I say, I'm not 100% certain. I don't play standard industry. 18:03:25 *** TheMask96 [martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:03:46 <xiong> I can say certainly that for other reasons it's very bad to have many short trains. 18:04:26 <xiong> My rule of thumb -- very rough -- is that no route should be covered by more than 4 trains. If you need to haul more cargo, make the trains longer. 18:04:47 <andythenorth> my guess is that more trains = shorter cycle time to have a train loading 18:04:50 <andythenorth> nothing more than that 18:04:51 <xiong> But that has a lot to do with my playing style, my starting date, and a zillion other factors. 18:04:58 <Rhamphoryncus> _maddy: the station rating section is pretty explicit. There might be further rules beyond the rating though, if that sentence about two wagon trains means anything. 18:05:14 <xiong> I don't think it's a great statement. 18:05:16 <andythenorth> I cba to read all the code though 18:05:32 <xiong> You might as well say a one-car train would be even better. 18:05:35 <andythenorth> Alberth: I pulled my finger out and wrote some Pixa classes 18:05:36 <Alberth> andy: there is too much of it anyway :) 18:05:51 <andythenorth> what I've done is clunky, almost deliberately so 18:05:56 <andythenorth> works though 18:05:59 <Alberth> that must have hurt badly, didn't it? 18:06:09 <andythenorth> more than you can know :P 18:06:10 <xiong> If you set your trains to full load, this is more stimulating than any amount of frequent stops. 18:06:21 <andythenorth> code is committed in the BANDIT repo currently 18:06:29 <andythenorth> it would bear quite some code review 18:06:40 <andythenorth> at least there is something to review now :P 18:06:43 <Alberth> oke :) 18:07:09 <andythenorth> but I have to bath childrens right now ;) 18:07:21 *** kkb110__ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 18:07:26 <Alberth> I was not finsihed reading forum as well :) 18:07:32 <xiong> _maddy, for that matter, even if you set your trains to full load and they are far too long for the amount of cargo available, then you'll still get a high cargo rating, so long as you have enough trains so that at least one is waiting at all times. 18:07:53 <_maddy> I would guess, now that I think about it, read the code as well as look at savegame, that I am just imagining things, and it does not affect the production increase if you have trains waiting or not 18:07:57 <xiong> In fact, I disagree pretty much all around with the two-car-stimulating statement. 18:07:58 <Rhamphoryncus> _maddy: oh, I bet the two wagons things refers to NOT having full load.. which is a very old school approach ;) 18:08:21 *** TheMask96 [martijn@sirius.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 18:08:34 <_maddy> Rhamphoryncus: yeah, that would make more sense 18:08:52 <andythenorth> it's voodoo 18:08:58 <andythenorth> the code has nothing about n-wagons :P 18:09:11 <Rhamphoryncus> Your rating is affected by how recently your train was there, which for a full load is 0 time 18:09:11 <xiong> The trouble with all game play documentation is that it's so highly dependent on playing style and specific combinations of NewGRFs, not to mention versions of the game itself. 18:09:29 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:09:37 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 18:09:45 <xiong> _maddy, I think you should Be Bold and delete that statement from wiki. 18:09:49 <andythenorth> Alberth: I'll leave you with a couple of comments.... 18:10:03 <andythenorth> 1) I'm passing transforms around as though they are some kind of plugin 18:10:16 <_maddy> xiong: I'm a pretty bold person but not quite that bold :) 18:10:49 <andythenorth> 2) PixaMixer and PixaSequence are conflated. This leads to madness like "sequence = PixaSequence(sequence = my_sequence)" 18:11:00 <andythenorth> and self.sequence.sequence 18:11:35 <_maddy> I need to look at what this FIRS is btw, I have tried ECS but I don't like few things about it 18:12:10 <Rhamphoryncus> FIRS is good ;) 18:12:45 * Rhamphoryncus tries to think of something rude but funny to say about the dev.. but fails. 18:13:12 <andythenorth> FIRS is annoying 18:13:20 <Rhamphoryncus> heh 18:15:24 * andythenorth considers extra angles for BANDIT, in the style of CETS 18:17:08 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-31-132-172.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:19:33 * andythenorth hmms 18:19:42 <andythenorth> there is a very logical change I should make in my code 18:19:45 <_maddy> FIRS looks pretty interesting 18:19:52 <andythenorth> it would be much more elegant, but also much harder to use :( 18:20:07 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:20:18 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has joined #openttd 18:25:45 <_maddy> andythenorth: noticed you're the developer of FIRS, what's annoying about it? 18:26:01 <andythenorth> lots of work left to do 18:27:07 <_maddy> right 18:28:06 * andythenorth biab 18:28:07 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 18:29:30 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23996 /trunk/src/lang/ (14 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) 18:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 82 changes by Maccie123 18:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: basque - 12 changes by HerrBasque 18:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by KorneySan 18:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 47 changes by Gavin 18:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 4 changes by habell 18:48:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23997 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt: -Fix: WT3 validation errors 18:49:24 *** Firartix [~artixds@38.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:50:42 *** Lakie [~Lakie@host81-141-101-75.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #openttd 18:58:56 *** kkb110__ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:59:43 *** Firartix [~artixds@133.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 19:13:09 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:13:26 <_maddy> any newgrf that gives road vehicles before the default year of 1935? 19:13:51 <Rhamphoryncus> yup. Don't remember what though :D 19:14:00 <Rhamphoryncus> Might be egrvts 19:14:45 <_maddy> I'll try that 19:14:48 <andythenorth> ho 19:15:12 <andythenorth> so if you were writing OO code, would you make bath() a method on Baby object 19:15:28 <andythenorth> or would you create a Bath object, and make do() a method on it, passing Baby 19:15:28 <andythenorth> ? 19:15:40 <Rhamphoryncus> Hard to say. It could go either way 19:15:43 <andythenorth> it's the kind of question I ask when hiring 19:15:46 <Rhamphoryncus> I would call it bathe() though 19:16:01 <andythenorth> there is no correct answer when hiring, but several that are better or worse 19:16:12 <Rhamphoryncus> :) 19:16:19 <_maddy> well, from those options, the second one 19:16:27 <Alberth> the former only if the baby knows how to bath him/her self 19:16:31 <andythenorth> people who go for Baby.bath() tend to be bad at collaborating 19:16:34 <andythenorth> and bad in large systems 19:16:48 <andythenorth> people who create Bath.bathe() are prone to over-engineering 19:17:03 <Rhamphoryncus> It depends on where the functionality fits 19:17:11 <andythenorth> the best answer is a question 19:17:23 <andythenorth> something like 'do we know if we need to bath other objects?' 19:17:32 <Alberth> let's make an Andy class, and add a bathe_baby() method :) 19:17:56 <Rhamphoryncus> The python language itself has chosen in some cases to have a bathe() builtin that calls baby.__bathe__(). A little bit of generic functionality in the former, and more specialized functionality in the latter. 19:18:04 <andythenorth> alberth would you make it inheritable from Person though? 19:18:12 <andythenorth> and could I delegate the method to Wife 19:18:27 <Rhamphoryncus> I wouldn't. I'd make a Person interface that you support. 19:18:59 <andythenorth> some people support that better than others :P 19:19:06 <Rhamphoryncus> But if the language doesn't support explicit interfaces then I might use a Person abc as a stopgap 19:19:07 <andythenorth> in some cases a duck supports it better :P 19:19:20 <andythenorth> anyway, you're all hired :P 19:19:27 <Alberth> phew :) 19:19:43 <Rhamphoryncus> Or in python's case a bit of documentation and just conform to the interface 19:19:44 <andythenorth> some people just freak out tbh 19:19:46 <_maddy> that's nice, what is your company? 19:19:51 <Rhamphoryncus> Yay! My first successful interview! 19:20:15 <andythenorth> how would you represent a flock of sheep in semantically valid html or xhtml? 19:20:26 <Rhamphoryncus> .. wtf? 19:20:59 <Rhamphoryncus> Need to refine that question. Is this a chart of sheep? A table of sheep? 19:21:08 * Alberth does not see a connection either 19:21:17 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: that was the correct answer 19:21:24 <Rhamphoryncus> both parts? :D 19:21:25 <andythenorth> the correct answer is a question 19:22:02 <Rhamphoryncus> "That makes no sense, what the hell are you on? Okay, what are some plausible interpretations.." 19:22:08 <andythenorth> people who don't ask questions are terrifying to employ 19:22:25 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah 19:22:30 <andythenorth> if sheep have no further attributes: <ul> 19:22:40 <andythenorth> if they have attributes, <ol> or <table> 19:22:51 <andythenorth> maybe <dl> but you'd have to try really hard to convince me on that 19:23:18 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, that's almost HTML 101.. which means 95% of webdevelopers won't get it. 19:23:36 <andythenorth> lots don't 19:23:50 <Alberth> I get it, and I am not even a webdeveloper :) 19:24:02 <andythenorth> if you tell me that I can extend arbitrary tags validly, I'll be impressed, but probably wouldn't hire you (smug) 19:24:05 <Alberth> perhaps I read too many RFCs :) 19:24:20 <andythenorth> now you're hired, would you review my code? :D 19:24:22 <Rhamphoryncus> Under XML I suppose 19:24:54 <Rhamphoryncus> I don't recall the specific requirements for validation though. I've blocked out the part of my brain that deals with XML/XHTML. 19:25:12 <andythenorth> I think it's probably valid to extend the namespace 19:25:14 <andythenorth> maybe 19:25:21 <andythenorth> no idea what browsers do with it though 19:25:31 <andythenorth> microformats and such don't seem to trip them up 19:25:57 <Rhamphoryncus> With HTML (not XHTML) almost nothing you do is valid, and if you do make it valid you're doing it wrong in some significant usability aspect 19:25:58 <Alberth> andythenorth: sure, I found misc/pixel_generator/pixa.py and misc/pixel_generator/gestalts/tipping_trailer.py (or some other file there), is that the ones you mean? 19:26:18 <andythenorth> Alberth: the only valid gestalt right now is flat_trailer.py 19:26:23 <andythenorth> otherwise yes 19:26:27 <Alberth> browsers eat just about anything 19:26:46 <andythenorth> validators don't though 19:27:02 <andythenorth> but anyway... 19:28:44 <andythenorth> ho 19:28:48 * andythenorth ponders generating sailing ships 19:30:18 <_maddy> wow this egrvts has horse carriages, that's pretty cool 19:30:45 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host242-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 19:30:47 <Alberth> you seem to have switched ideas a few times :) 19:30:49 <Wolf01> hai 19:30:49 <Alberth> hi Wolf01 19:31:39 <andythenorth> Alberth: I am having real trouble finding 'one and only way' 19:31:47 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.104.165] has joined #openttd 19:32:07 <andythenorth> I know enough to have a sane discussion about it now though 19:32:24 <andythenorth> I don't care how complex the classes are, but the interface for set developers needs to be easy 19:32:58 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:34:30 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-80-30.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:34:32 <Alberth> I am not sure where to begin 19:35:24 <andythenorth> I can tell you my questions if that helps 19:35:40 <andythenorth> I think there is one key change I want to make, and some minor ones 19:36:08 <andythenorth> currently I rely on passing a transform down the call chain (with args) to the renderer 19:36:17 <andythenorth> this is potentially powerful, but smells wrong 19:36:36 <andythenorth> why don't I just call the transform on the sequence, then pass that to the renderer? 19:36:47 <Alberth> yeah, it looks a bit ad-hoc 19:37:05 <andythenorth> it is 19:37:15 <andythenorth> so a line like 49 : PixaMixer(sequence = PixaSequence(sequence = [(0, 0, 19)]), transform = transform), 19:37:20 <andythenorth> should be 19:37:35 <andythenorth> 49 : PixaMixer(sequence = some_transform(PixaSequence(sequence = [(0, 0, 19)]), args)), 19:37:50 <andythenorth> that one is the odd case where I only have a single point btw 19:37:55 <andythenorth> but it kind of works 19:38:46 <andythenorth> however.... 19:39:15 <Alberth> my main problem with it is that you just have level of transform, it seems 19:39:19 <Alberth> +one 19:39:24 <andythenorth> you could stack them 19:39:25 <andythenorth> in a list 19:39:39 <andythenorth> or chain them together via their return methods 19:41:03 <Alberth> sure? 19:41:19 <andythenorth> no :) 19:42:20 <andythenorth> an alternative I haven't tried is subclassing 19:42:21 <Alberth> ie is the PixaMixer.sequence the same thing as a PixaSequence.sequence ? 19:42:43 <andythenorth> no 19:42:47 <andythenorth> which is horrible :( 19:42:55 <andythenorth> I seem to need both entities 19:42:59 <andythenorth> but the result is fugly 19:43:06 <Alberth> for point in self.sequence.sequence: <-- so that breaks then, I think 19:43:45 <andythenorth> the key problem I have is that, by moving more stuff to objects, not functions, I can't easily vary values 19:43:59 <andythenorth> for different variations of graphics (colours etc) 19:44:16 <andythenorth> hence passing stuff down the call chain 19:44:33 <Alberth> partial() is just creation of a callable object 19:44:42 <andythenorth> I would rather compose the correct values nearer to the first call, then just pass the result down to the renderer 19:44:54 <andythenorth> I prefer things that are relatively more stupid 19:45:28 <Alberth> if you don't want influence from the actual pixels, that's a good option imho 19:45:42 * andythenorth got a bit excited that transforms are like plugins 19:46:22 <andythenorth> I haven't found a case yet where I need influence from the pixels 19:46:31 <Alberth> ok 19:46:37 <andythenorth> if someone does, they should subclass PixaMixer or such and extend it themselves 19:47:12 <Alberth> that won't work if you compute pixel values before pushing them to the renderer 19:47:30 <andythenorth> well....ok....let's live with the restriction 19:47:45 <andythenorth> if I've understood you correctly :) 19:48:04 <Alberth> sounds like a good plan :) 19:48:15 * andythenorth wonders if a class can be made callable 19:48:20 <Alberth> it can 19:49:00 <Alberth> not sure how useful it is though, you can equally well call obj.convert() or so 19:49:20 <andythenorth> nvm 19:50:24 *** Firartix [~artixds@133.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:50:46 <andythenorth> Alberth: would it help to have some cases for transforms? 19:51:39 <Alberth> I would make every case a separate class or function 19:51:41 <_maddy> andythenorth: why is there so many different cargo types in FIRS? 19:51:58 <andythenorth> _maddy: what do you think the answer is? ;) 19:51:59 <Alberth> _maddy: to keep you busy :) 19:52:06 <andythenorth> Alberth: example cases.... 19:52:22 <andythenorth> (1) shift colours for an entire sequence by some value 19:52:29 <andythenorth> (2) mask out pixels with blue 19:52:35 <Alberth> sounds good :) 19:52:45 <andythenorth> (3) add a value to dy (for loading / loaded sprites) 19:53:07 <Alberth> _maddy: FIRS has no economies yet, where you can reduce the #cargoes iirc 19:53:12 <andythenorth> nope 19:53:48 <Alberth> equally many cargoes in the economies? 19:53:56 <_maddy> just a bit strange when there's so many industry types that a lot of them don't get generated in a 256x256 map :) 19:54:10 <andythenorth> some economies will feature fewer cargos 19:54:23 <andythenorth> and yes, 256x256 maps are problematic, especially if hilly 19:54:34 <andythenorth> although industries are also date-specific 19:54:42 <andythenorth> so some won't appear until certain dates 19:54:51 <Alberth> _maddy: then you have 'difficult' terrain; the game is trying to generate them all iirc 19:56:06 <_maddy> right, I'm trying to get a mountainous map, and also starting at 1870 19:57:46 <_maddy> yeah, the date seems to be the key here indeed 19:57:54 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 19:59:05 *** Firartix [~artixds@159.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 20:02:17 <andythenorth> Alberth: another question I had was whether to mush 'colourset' into a type of transform 20:02:41 <andythenorth> I wasn't convinced it helps 20:02:58 <andythenorth> sometimes more entities helps the interface (sometimes not) 20:03:27 <Alberth> that's named colours? 20:03:43 <andythenorth> yes 20:03:56 <andythenorth> 'company_colour' or 'cargo_colour' or such 20:04:27 <andythenorth> the values are substituted during the render pass, they're not global constants 20:04:38 <andythenorth> they need substituting before transform usually 20:04:46 <Alberth> I was wondering about that too; it seems useful, except 'try: colour +1' does not feel the right way to test :p 20:05:11 <andythenorth> no 20:06:08 <Alberth> you'd have a dict of colour-name to colour-value would be my idea 20:06:23 <Alberth> but that still has the detection problem 20:07:30 <Alberth> you could have two kinds of colours, but that feels a bit overkill-ish 20:07:37 <andythenorth> they are currently dicts 20:07:40 <andythenorth> hmm 20:07:46 <andythenorth> object for colouring? :P 20:07:54 <andythenorth> nah 20:08:17 <Alberth> I don't understand enough how you use it atm 20:08:49 <andythenorth> the output tells the story 20:08:56 <andythenorth> have a look in 'results' 20:09:10 <andythenorth> you get trailers in green or blue ;) 20:10:27 *** _maddy [~plaiho@182.21.240.77.static.louhi.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:11:19 <Alberth> hmm, what if you add dict((x,x) for x in range(256)) to the named colours, and then transform the original sequence as first step? 20:12:57 * andythenorth ponders 20:14:23 <Alberth> making your sequence numbers only, then pushing them through the transformation, and giving them to the renderer 20:15:40 <andythenorth> try it? 20:16:11 <Alberth> i was busy making a mixer example, but got a chat in another window :) 20:16:21 *** Nat_aS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:22:31 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 20:32:48 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59:27 *** BelugasTheSecond [~belugas@216.191.111.237] has joined #openttd 20:59:58 *** Belugas is now known as Guest4267 20:59:59 *** BelugasTheSecond is now known as Belugas 21:03:36 *** Guest4267 [~belugas@96.243.16.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:05:30 *** macee [~macee@dsl5402C767.pool.t-online.hu] has left #openttd [] 21:07:48 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 21:12:37 <andythenorth> Alberth: if the PixaSequenceCollections were just replaced by functions, some of the complexity would go away 21:13:02 <andythenorth> then the sequences they contain could be transformed when called 21:17:18 *** Chris_Booth is now known as Guest4268 21:17:19 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-31-132-172.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 21:17:54 *** Guest4268 [~chatzilla@client-86-31-132-172.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:18:12 <Alberth> functions are first-class citizens too in Python 21:20:22 <andythenorth> I know :) 21:20:23 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 21:22:20 * andythenorth has just been reading a python tutorial wrt 'everything is an object' 21:22:30 <andythenorth> which I knew previously, but not why 21:22:34 <Rubidium> I object ;) 21:22:45 <valhallasw> I, object. 21:27:03 <Alberth> I have some trouble understanding how a sequence collection can be converted to a function 21:27:25 <Rubidium> just extend the function ;) 21:27:36 *** null0010 [~null0010@c-24-8-243-135.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 21:27:48 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@25.Red-88-1-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 21:27:48 <null0010> how do i get a town to accept deliveries of goods? 21:27:52 <Rubidium> after all, an object is an object, so why wouldn't you be able to extend it? 21:28:17 * Alberth wraps a lamdba around Rubidium 21:28:19 <Rubidium> null0010: grow the town large enough and have enough coverage 21:28:36 <null0010> how do i grow a town, then? 21:29:02 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@25.Red-88-1-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:30:19 <null0010> hmm 21:30:27 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@25.Red-88-1-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 21:30:48 <null0010> is it possible to cause a town to grow by unloading good at a truck station in the town even though they don't accept it? 21:30:52 <null0010> goods* 21:30:57 <andythenorth> Alberth: it would have to be (as it was previously) that each collection is defined in the gestalt 21:31:04 <andythenorth> no class :( 21:31:04 <Alberth> null0010: doesn't help 21:31:10 <null0010> mm 21:31:14 <andythenorth> it worked, but seemed a bit fragile 21:31:26 <null0010> so i have to start delivering passengers and/or mail in order to grow a town that won't accept anything else? 21:31:44 <Alberth> null0010: you may want to read the wiki page with 'game mechanics' 21:31:55 <Alberth> as it explains exactly how the game works 21:32:12 <null0010> i'm reading the page on towns 21:32:28 <null0010> it says "Town growth can be accelerated by loading and unloading at least one item of cargo at up to five stations within town influence within a two month period. It does not matter which cargos are loaded/unloaded." 21:32:48 <andythenorth> alberth so previously instead of "key_colour_mapping_pass_1 = PixaSequenceCollection([sequence])" I had "def key_colour_mapping_pass_1(args): return [sequence] " 21:33:11 <andythenorth> which meant I could pass args to transform sequence when calling the collection 21:33:16 <andythenorth> but it smells odd 21:35:48 <Alberth> null0010: ok, I could be wrong. Try it :) 21:37:13 <null0010> no, i mean, that's why i came in and asked 21:37:27 <null0010> because the wiki said "it does not matter what is loaded/unloaded" 21:38:46 <Alberth> some people may know the code well enough to give an answer to that question, but I am not one of them. 21:38:57 <null0010> hm, okay 21:39:17 <null0010> well all i can say is that this town seems to be growing, but i am not sure if it's growing any faster than it would if i were'nt dropping off goods to rot 21:39:48 <Alberth> so, either read the code, or try it seem to be your two options 21:39:52 <andythenorth> null0010: are you playing with default industries, town etc (no newgrfs)? 21:40:00 <null0010> andythenorth: yes. 21:40:18 <andythenorth> delivering cargo Goods to towns doesn't affect growth at all 21:40:49 <andythenorth> it's a common myth 21:42:58 <null0010> ah, okay 21:43:07 <null0010> when they don't accept it, you mean? 21:43:37 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 21:44:26 <andythenorth> at all 21:44:33 <null0010> that seems odd 21:44:36 <Yexo> <null0010> because the wiki said "it does not matter what is loaded/unloaded" <_ the cargo has to be accepted by a station 21:44:50 <null0010> ok 21:45:02 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-105-49.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 21:45:03 <Yexo> andythenorth: there is no difference between delivering coal, goods or passengers to a town 21:45:18 <Yexo> the "goods" cargo is not in any way special wrt town growth 21:45:29 <andythenorth> exactly 21:45:41 * andythenorth is reading town_cmd 21:45:53 <andythenorth> I don't believe that unloading cargo affects growth at all either 21:45:56 <andythenorth> only loading 21:46:01 <andythenorth> but the code will know 21:46:13 <null0010> so essentially the only way to grow a town is passenger services? 21:46:22 <Alberth> andythenorth: I still fail to understand what you are saying with the pixa sequence collections :( 21:46:24 <andythenorth> hmm 21:46:25 <Yexo> no, any kind of transport 21:46:29 <andythenorth> the code knows better than me 21:46:36 *** FHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 21:46:41 <null0010> i am confused 21:46:42 <null0010> hah 21:46:46 <andythenorth> if (st->time_since_load <= 20 || st->time_since_unload <= 20) { 21:46:57 <Alberth> andythenorth: annoying that the code is always right, isn't it? :) 21:47:18 <Yexo> null0010: by far the easiest way to achieve maximum town growth is to build 5 bus stops in the center of a town and make one bus drive between those stations 21:47:21 <andythenorth> :D 21:47:30 <null0010> that is just plain silly 21:47:40 <Yexo> it is, but it's also how the game works 21:47:53 <andythenorth> null0010: you can also pick up cargo from primaries, drop it off at secondaries, pick up cargo at secondaries etc 21:48:00 <andythenorth> (industries) 21:48:00 <Alberth> null0010: OpenTTD is not simulating reality in any way 21:48:28 <Rubidium> "OpenTTD rejects reality and substitutes its own"? 21:48:37 <andythenorth> Alberth: wrt sequence collections....I need to modify the contents of the sequence 21:48:51 <null0010> oh i know it's not simulating reality but driving people from Grangeford across the street to another bus stop in Grageford in order to cause new people to spontaneously appear doesn't even make sense 21:49:01 <null0010> unless we assume that busses are actually mobile love hotels 21:49:07 <Alberth> andythenorth: the colour-names 21:49:17 <andythenorth> and the transforms... 21:49:20 <andythenorth> if sequence collections are classes, the only way I've found to modify the sequences they contain is is pass things down the call chain 21:49:40 <andythenorth> once the collection is instanced, all the sequences are 'baked in' 21:49:41 * Alberth nods 21:50:03 <Alberth> the sequence is at the bottom, so you have to 'dig' :) 21:50:13 <andythenorth> hence why I was considering making collections callable, and passing args to their callable method 21:50:35 * Alberth was making flat lists of transformations as an experiment 21:51:30 <andythenorth> I think the solution I've got works technically, but it adds a lot of 'partial(stuff)' noise for authors to deal with 21:51:44 <Alberth> indeed 21:51:49 <andythenorth> and it requires understanding that custom transforms must plugin to the render stage 21:51:58 <null0010> ok thanks for the help 21:51:58 <null0010> o/ 21:51:59 <andythenorth> instead of just writing a local transform on the sequence 21:52:00 *** null0010 [~null0010@c-24-8-243-135.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left #openttd [] 21:55:34 <Alberth> hmm, I now have 2 mixers, while you mentioned 3 :) 21:55:53 <andythenorth> is 2 ~= n? :) 21:56:06 <andythenorth> anything > 1 is usually n in my head 21:56:17 <Alberth> fair enough :) 21:57:11 <Rubidium> hi andnnhennnn ;) 21:57:51 <andythenorth> hi 21:58:40 <Rubidium> got to love how much the lower case i looks like a 1 when there's a : on the line above it ;) 21:58:54 <Rubidium> (with my monospace font) 22:00:06 <Alberth> and a small inter-line spacing :) 22:01:10 <Alberth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1157/ <-- not as far as I wanted it, but it'll have to do for now 22:02:04 <Wolf01> 'night 22:02:08 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host242-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:03:25 <Alberth> and I would do that sequence mapping of colour names just before the for loop, [Point(p.dx, p.dy, col_map[p.colour]) for p in sequence] 22:03:46 * andythenorth looks 22:03:50 <Alberth> which will break if you have used names that don't exist in the mapping 22:04:33 <andythenorth> yes 22:04:38 <Alberth> converting pixels to blue is left as an exercise for the looker :) 22:04:56 <andythenorth> breaking is intended for that case - I considered writing a warning or raise 22:05:00 <andythenorth> but didn't get to it :P 22:05:12 <andythenorth> ok I see how these mixers work 22:05:23 <Alberth> you could output the name that you miss, which would be useful information 22:05:47 <Alberth> this is more or less the same as partial 22:06:29 <andythenorth> yes 22:06:38 <andythenorth> it's just cleaner this way though 22:07:21 <andythenorth> Alberth: sleep time for you? 22:07:24 <Alberth> somewhat easier to understand than a chain I think 22:07:35 <Alberth> yes, about 30 minutes ago already :) 22:07:39 <andythenorth> k 22:07:46 <andythenorth> sequence collections can wait :) 22:07:52 <andythenorth> I am stuck on them 22:08:10 <andythenorth> but I can re-implement what I have with these transforms tomorrow 22:08:28 * andythenorth prefers 'design by coding' 22:08:55 <andythenorth> thanks 22:09:24 <Alberth> collections are fixed, or are they parameterized on the col_map? 22:09:40 <Alberth> or on something else? 22:10:21 <andythenorth> hmm 22:10:33 <andythenorth> they're fixed 22:10:52 <andythenorth> (If I understand the question correctly) 22:11:33 <andythenorth> I don't have the col_map in scope when I instantiate each collection 22:12:34 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.124.217.99] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:12:55 <Alberth> hmm, too difficult at this hour :p 22:13:00 <andythenorth> PixaShiftColour - the upper and lower are to prevent overspill? 22:13:30 <Alberth> you said 'range' which I interpreted as some but not all colours 22:13:55 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:57 <andythenorth> yes 22:14:00 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 22:14:24 <andythenorth> upper should be at most 255 :) 22:14:32 <Alberth> but if you want to change all colours, the boundaries are not needed of course 22:14:41 <andythenorth> there are two edge cases ;) 22:15:15 <Alberth> min(255, max(0, col+shift)) :p 22:15:54 <Alberth> good night :) 22:15:56 <andythenorth> me too 22:16:04 <andythenorth> bye ;) 22:16:09 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 22:17:19 *** Lakie [~Lakie@host81-141-101-75.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Quit: .] 22:18:51 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido] 22:24:42 <xiong> ! This dim bulb finally lit ! 22:25:34 <xiong> If trackwork causes short trains to get hung up (because they don't have the long backend pushing down when climbing); pad out the short trains so they're long. 22:25:47 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [] 22:26:02 <xiong> Can do that with lightweight dummies between the engine and a heavy tail. At least, I think that should work. 22:29:48 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 22:29:52 * Alberth usually builds some parallel tracks on a hill climb 22:31:01 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 22:31:42 *** kkb110__ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-02.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 22:35:37 *** Mazur is now known as Tyne 22:37:28 *** Tyne is now known as Mazur 22:46:43 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@25.Red-88-1-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:52:03 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AFE9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:55:30 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-31-132-172.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 11.0/20120222074758]] 22:56:20 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:56:21 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@29.Red-81-39-149.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 22:56:32 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has joined #openttd 22:59:00 <frosch123> night 22:59:03 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd0c4.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:32 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:43 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has joined #openttd 23:12:03 *** smoovi [~smoovi@e178198127.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 23:12:56 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.104.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:15:49 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:16:01 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has joined #openttd 23:19:40 *** FHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 23:21:14 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:48:37 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-177-190.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [] 23:48:53 *** kkb110__ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-02.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]