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With 12mag 08:30:13 <planetmaker> hence my first question ;-) 08:30:30 <NGC3982> well, i love the conformity of the galaxy. big and round, and a bit like the milky way. 08:30:40 <NGC3982> havent really thought about the visibility of it. 08:30:41 <NGC3982> :) 08:30:47 <planetmaker> :-) 08:31:07 <planetmaker> the images I saw look nice indeed 08:32:27 <andythenorth> I could just check the type of the class (is it PixaColour?), but that would be restrictive 08:32:37 <planetmaker> hm... I guess given usual NGC brightnesses, 12mag is above average :-) 08:32:40 <andythenorth> and not useful for people who wanted to extend the base methods 08:32:59 <NGC3982> planetmaker: although, i feel; most people do tend to forget about the beauty in the more "normal" stuff in the universe. 08:33:20 <NGC3982> sure, the crab nebula is cool, but it lacks a certain ..normality. 08:33:28 <planetmaker> yeah 08:33:59 <NGC3982> i love these huge, almost perfect structures. 08:34:34 <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/m51_color.jpg <-- not normal ;-) 08:34:42 *** bolli [~bolli@185.72.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 08:36:06 <planetmaker> @calc 2.5**3.6 08:36:06 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 27.0759704357 08:37:10 <NGC3982> planetmaker: that is your own photography? 08:37:19 <planetmaker> I kinda find fascinating the sombrero galaxy: http://hubblesite.org/gallery/wallpaper/pr2003028a/ 08:37:35 <planetmaker> yes, it is. 3*30 minutes exposure 08:37:45 <NGC3982> with what? 08:38:20 <NGC3982> 5194 sure has some great colors from the hubble photos 08:38:28 <NGC3982> bright red and gray 08:38:53 <planetmaker> 8" Celestron on an SBIG ST-8 with r,g, and b filters respectively 08:39:11 <NGC3982> ooh. 08:39:25 <NGC3982> im about to buy my first telescope. 08:39:32 <NGC3982> havent decided on what, yet. 08:39:36 <NGC3982> i barely have the knowledge on it. 08:40:06 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@217.72.59.12] has joined #openttd 08:40:53 <bolli> don't buy a refracting telescope... :P 08:41:04 <bolli> by a reflector 08:41:22 *** BERLIN22M [BERLIN22M@79.125.201.62] has joined #openttd 08:41:24 <BERLIN22M> http://xeducation.info/2012/02/tight-ass-babe-gets-ass-licked-and-analed/ 08:41:44 *** BERLIN22M [BERLIN22M@79.125.201.62] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you have any questions (2012-03-01 08:42:28)] 08:42:01 <bolli> don't you just love porn spambots.... 08:42:55 <blathijs> Hmm, I was about to click that link, expecting to get a funny picture of a cute piglet or something 08:43:02 <blathijs> Good thing I didn't :-) 08:43:07 <NGC3982> :D 08:43:21 <NGC3982> well, freud would love a specimen like that 08:43:36 <NGC3982> someone who reads "tight ass babe gets ass licked and analed" and only recognices "babe". 08:43:40 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-27-206.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 08:45:48 <bolli> right... next stupid compiling question... 08:45:54 <bolli> any idea what 5>LINK : fatal error LNK1104: cannot open file 'libpng.lib' means? 08:46:54 <bolli> its the last error i've got, and it doesn't tell you where its called from... 08:48:38 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-105-49.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:52:46 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:55:32 *** smoovi [~smoovi@e178192168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 08:56:37 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@217.72.59.12] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:56:37 <planetmaker> bolli, it doesn't find libpng which probably was linked to dynamically 08:57:19 <planetmaker> NGC3982, "which telescope" is a tricky question. It IMHO highly depends on what you want to do. "Buy a reflector" is also not necessarily the correct answer there either... 08:57:54 <planetmaker> if you just start and it'll be your first telescope and you want to watch with your eye... probably a Dobson mount reflector might be the most fun for the buck 08:58:16 <planetmaker> but you won't do photography with that 08:59:52 *** bolli_ [~bolli@185.72.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 09:00:02 <planetmaker> but then... I probably wouldn't invest too much money in the first telescope anyway unless you're absolutely sure you want to keep the hobby and that you want to do astro photography 09:00:17 <planetmaker> but then it rather needs 4-digit amounts of money 09:01:55 <bolli_> its been a few years since I did any astro photography... 09:02:14 <bolli_> i'm trying to remember the name of the moving mount that we used 09:02:39 <NGC3982> planetmaker: absolutely. 09:03:13 *** bolli [~bolli@185.72.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:03:23 <NGC3982> planetmaker: i have a decent amount of money tucked away for the soul purpose 09:03:34 <NGC3982> although, i think ill start with something for the eye 09:04:04 <NGC3982> i find more interest then enough in the local solar system 09:04:18 <NGC3982> where i guess a small dobson reflector would do. 09:05:16 <NGC3982> something like <12-13" f/5? 09:05:27 <bolli_> ahh... astrotrac 09:05:30 <bolli_> http://www.robertreeves.com/astrotrac4.jpg 09:06:18 <bolli_> http://www.robertreeves.com/AstroTracresults.htm 09:06:43 <bolli_> slightly pricy though :/ 09:07:00 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 09:07:53 <NGC3982> THAT LOOKS NEAT. 09:07:55 <NGC3982> oh, oos. 09:08:02 <NGC3982> for god sake, what am i doing. 09:08:26 <bolli_> it allows you to take long exposure shots without getting blurring caused by the earths rotation... 09:08:40 <NGC3982> oooh.. 09:09:11 <NGC3982> i didnt think an dslr objective of that small size could produce those pictures 09:09:13 <NGC3982> i want that 09:09:14 <NGC3982> so bad. 09:09:46 *** bolli_ is now known as bolli 09:11:28 <bolli> those pictures were probably taken with a special lens or even a telescope looking at them... 09:11:37 <bolli> then extensively modified 09:11:52 <NGC3982> sure looks like it 09:11:56 <NGC3982> i really love that. 09:13:55 <bolli> ah here we go... 09:13:56 <bolli> http://www.flickr.com/photos/imagined_horizons/3664817943/in/set-72157619858035845 09:13:59 <bolli> http://www.flickr.com/photos/imagined_horizons/3665620028/in/set-72157619858035845 09:14:06 <bolli> i took those years ago... 09:14:14 <bolli> using a remotely operated telescope in hawaii 09:14:27 <planetmaker> with a setup like that and a decent dslr you'll get nice overview images of things like the whole of Orion or so 09:14:39 <planetmaker> or, depending on lens, of course also smaller detail 09:14:41 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:14:44 <planetmaker> but you need very good tracking 09:15:05 <planetmaker> which would be an automated mount 09:17:08 <NGC3982> M104 is the sombrero galaxy, right? 09:17:40 <NGC3982> thing is, automated mount + dslr is very expencive for me as a beginner. 09:19:03 <planetmaker> yes, it is 09:19:37 <planetmaker> As such, it probably often is not a good idea wanting to start with photography 09:19:55 <planetmaker> As non-star trail images require an automated mount 09:20:35 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 09:21:11 <planetmaker> Anything longer than a few seconds will already give you trails w/o guidance, already for "normal" focal lengths of common DSLR lenses 09:21:25 <planetmaker> *few seconds exposure 09:21:43 <planetmaker> And that effect of course gets worse when you mount the camera to a real telescope 09:23:34 *** bolli [~bolli@185.72.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:27:25 <xiong> APOTTD? 09:34:35 <lugo> "Weltraumbahnhof" 09:34:38 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [] 09:42:20 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 09:43:11 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:45:32 <andythenorth> hmm 09:46:01 <andythenorth> I need a class that when called, returns an object with a value baked in 09:46:06 <andythenorth> like a small factory 09:53:45 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 09:57:38 <andythenorth> oh dear 09:57:40 <andythenorth> this works 09:57:47 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120216100510]] 09:59:06 <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1164/ 09:59:16 <andythenorth> must be an insane solution? 10:00:33 *** tty234 [telex@anapnea.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:00:52 <andythenorth> more realistic use example: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1165/ 10:06:18 *** bolli [~bolli@46.17.160.222] has joined #openttd 10:06:38 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:09:53 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 10:12:11 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 10:25:46 *** Firartix [~artixds@184.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 10:55:28 *** Firartix [~artixds@184.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 10:59:37 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [] 11:01:32 *** Firartix [~artixds@184.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 11:37:01 <NGC3982> planetmaker: dude. 11:37:13 <NGC3982> planetmaker: obsonian telescopes was really, really expencive. 11:37:36 <NGC3982> i think i need to stick to the more usual stuff before i get there. 11:38:16 <NGC3982> planetmaker: how about a neat litle celestron nexstar 6SE? 11:38:17 <planetmaker> sorry, what's expensive? 11:38:44 <planetmaker> Dobson-type telescopes? 11:38:53 <planetmaker> That's not a manufacturer. It's a mount type 11:39:01 <planetmaker> Which gives you the largest apperture for the buck 11:39:56 <NGC3982> i cant seem to find anything below 5-7.000 usd. 11:40:03 <NGC3982> i guess thats me not searching correctly. 11:40:22 <planetmaker> And the Celestron you quote with the auto-guider and the mount certainly is not cheap. A Dobson basically is a telescope w/o a (proper) mount 11:41:17 <NGC3982> hm, i see. 11:41:20 <NGC3982> ill keep on reading. 11:42:13 <planetmaker> what you quote is probably... 2000⬠? 11:43:15 <NGC3982> something like that, yes. 11:43:42 <NGC3982> actually, i cant say i have any idea on what so ever, what kind of prices i should be looking for. if it demands it, ill pay 4000. 11:43:49 <SpComb> wouldn't a nice tele objective be enough for looking across the street? 11:44:56 <NGC3982> ;). 11:46:05 * NGC3982 scans ebay for porthole glass. 11:46:14 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:48:52 <planetmaker> NGC3982, the main question you really should answer before you buy is: what do you want to do? 11:49:09 <planetmaker> - visual observation or photography? 11:49:21 <andythenorth> planetmaker: wrt FIRS recycling depot - it appears to simply miss the relevant location check(s) 11:49:38 <andythenorth> it slipped out when converted I guess 11:49:38 <planetmaker> - solar system bodies and alike? Or rather deep sky objects (like your nick implies) 11:49:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth, probably 11:50:16 <andythenorth> so a bug, but missing code rather than broken 11:52:25 *** Illegal_Alien [~Illegal_A@ip4da39612.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 11:52:29 <Eddi|zuHause> bah fuck... kmail got totally unusable now... 11:52:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i tell it to "delete duplicates" 11:52:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and it does everything, except actually delete the duplicates... 11:53:08 <SpComb> deletes everything else? 11:53:10 *** orudge` [orudge@94-192-85-74.zone6.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 11:53:13 *** mode/#openttd [+o orudge`] by ChanServ 11:54:08 <planetmaker> NGC3982, the Dobson telescopes might seem more expensive. But their average aperture also usually is quite a lot bigger. Thus much more fun for visual deep sky tours 11:54:26 *** orudge` [orudge@94-192-85-74.zone6.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 12:01:26 *** cmircea [~cmircea@86.124.217.99] has joined #openttd 12:01:37 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-224-188.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 12:01:40 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 12:04:09 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@tor.pm-ib.de] has joined #openttd 12:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> and not useful for people who wanted to extend the base methods <-- there is "isinstance", which should properly handle derived classes 12:04:45 <planetmaker> NGC3982, seems that the NexStar series indeed is good value meanwhile. Computerisation of the mounts made the expensive mounts kinda obsolete... 12:04:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't seen any sane functions to check interface-conformity for proper duck typing 12:05:30 <Eddi|zuHause> so it'll fail somewhere deep inside the code instead of at a simple "assert hasinterface(blah)" 12:05:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I found an article where Guido is quoted as saying "know your codebase" wrt interfaces & duckytpin 12:06:08 <Eddi|zuHause> now that sounds like a useless argument :) 12:06:21 <andythenorth> also - "use tests" ;) 12:06:50 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-220-179.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:08:14 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-224-188.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:08:19 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-38-99.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 12:08:23 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 12:15:37 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-19-72.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 12:17:06 <Ammler> does debian build debug packages for openttd? 12:20:49 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-38-99.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:23:55 *** bolli [~bolli@46.17.160.222] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:26:54 <Ammler> it seems like --enable-debug is not useable for packages, how shall I enable debug but not change the final binary? 12:28:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I know it lacks context, but does any of this look insane? http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1166/ 12:30:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't understand a word of that 12:30:47 <andythenorth> k 12:30:55 <andythenorth> thanks anyway ;) 12:31:16 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 12:35:58 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 12:36:00 <andythenorth> I know try: except: is a valid python pattern, but it makes me itch 12:36:24 <andythenorth> usually it's easy to kick holes in what "except" is doing 12:36:44 <andythenorth> hmm 12:36:50 <andythenorth> maybe python has something like hasttr() 12:37:55 <andythenorth> ho 12:37:55 <andythenorth> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/903130/hasattr-vs-try-except-block-to-deal-with-non-existent-attributes 12:41:47 <Ammler> looks like debug binary is built per default, maybe via CFLAGS? 12:49:29 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:49:30 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 12:52:34 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd 13:00:54 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 13:07:39 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:9825:f129:c306:2392] has joined #openttd 13:07:42 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:15:48 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 13:16:00 <Rhamphoryncus> Heya andythenorth 13:16:08 <andythenorth> hi hi 13:16:51 <Rhamphoryncus> The nml clicked an hour after you left. I understand it 13:16:54 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 13:17:19 *** Snail_ [~jacopocol@CPE78cd8e5ccf20-CM78cd8e5ccf1d.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: Snail_] 13:17:20 <Rhamphoryncus> But I also figured out a problem in your pseudocode 13:18:04 <Rhamphoryncus> The amount of supplies consumed is constant at a given production level, so as long as you exceed it by 1 you'll eventually hit saturation of the 3x chance 13:18:20 <Rhamphoryncus> Exceeding it by 50% would accomplish that in 6 months 13:18:41 <andythenorth> got a fix? :) 13:18:47 <Rhamphoryncus> yup 13:20:24 <Rhamphoryncus> Two parts. First is to average the supplies out over 3 months. Implemented by having supply_store in 3 variables: first (current month) you consume a third of it, second (previous month) you consume half of it, and third (month before that) you consume all that's left. Then you rotate them, making new for the new month. 13:21:19 <andythenorth> how do you retrospectively consume? 13:21:25 <andythenorth> suggests time travel... :) 13:21:39 <Rhamphoryncus> Those are just stockpiles of what's left 13:22:32 <Rhamphoryncus> So you have a budget for tuesday, wednesday, and thursday. Each started at a 3 dollars and you consume 1 dollar from each each day 13:23:15 <Rhamphoryncus> So just before you consume it'll look like 1, 2, 3. After it'll be 0, 1, 2. Then you rotate for the new month: 1, 2, 0 13:25:15 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, it's not like my patch series doesn't use that concept already... 13:25:33 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: does it? I'm going off his proposal mostly 13:26:02 <planetmaker> the idea there is to take a configurable time and use that as basis... 13:26:30 <planetmaker> or so was the idea when I started it 13:27:18 <planetmaker> you also need to mind that you only have so many persistant storage registers 13:27:46 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, but I think 3 is acceptable 13:28:46 <andythenorth> I recall that we discussed whatever is in the patch queue at the time, and it made sense 13:29:23 <Rhamphoryncus> So what's not done in the patches? 13:29:26 <planetmaker> it's not a question of 'acceptable' but of 'still available'? 13:29:36 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, removing the bugs in it 13:29:40 <planetmaker> and proper testing 13:29:49 * Rhamphoryncus nods 13:29:59 <Rhamphoryncus> like the bit shifting :) 13:35:33 <andythenorth> ha ha 13:35:35 <andythenorth> my code works 13:35:41 <andythenorth> I'm always surprised by that 13:39:27 <andythenorth> there's no sane way to assign an attr to a method is there? 13:39:54 <andythenorth> e.g. I have "def colour(self, colourset=None) 13:40:15 <Rhamphoryncus> ( production_level / 16 * ((production_level + 128) / 32 - (4 - LOAD_PERM(var_supply_efficiency_factor)))) is equivalent to (production_level / 16 * (production_level + / 32 + LOAD_PERM(var_supply_efficiency_factor))) 13:40:31 <andythenorth> and I want to provide an easy interface for authors, who might prefer to call self.colour 13:40:44 <andythenorth> self.colour = self.colour() fails 13:40:44 <Rhamphoryncus> But I'm also guessing the /16 should be done last, to minimize rounding 13:40:50 <andythenorth> this might be a stupid dumb idea anyway 13:41:02 <andythenorth> methods are methods, and should look like methods 13:41:04 <andythenorth> magic is bd 13:41:05 <andythenorth> bad 13:41:22 <Rhamphoryncus> You want to create a function and make it a method on that specific object? 13:41:45 <andythenorth> I've done that 13:41:51 <andythenorth> I want to assign it to an attr :P 13:42:01 <andythenorth> I can think of at least two reasons this shouldn't work 13:42:08 <Rhamphoryncus> "foo = foo" doesn't make sense :) 13:42:30 <andythenorth> foo = foo() is somewhat problematic too 13:42:41 <andythenorth> object = call object :P 13:42:46 <Rhamphoryncus> You'd need a different name 13:42:59 <Rhamphoryncus> but self.myfunc = self.colour works fine 13:43:09 <andythenorth> nah, it's a problem I should stop solving, it's just a bad idea 13:43:12 <Rhamphoryncus> It creates a bound method object when you look it up 13:43:45 <andythenorth> in the case above - what happens if I call self.myfunc(args) ? 13:43:50 <andythenorth> do the args get passed? 13:44:08 <Rhamphoryncus> yes 13:44:11 <andythenorth> hmm 13:44:43 <andythenorth> is it good that authors can use attr access when they don't need args? 13:44:56 <Rhamphoryncus> Methods in python are attributes. Internally, if you do self.colour(args) it does "func = self.colour; func(args)" 13:44:56 <andythenorth> and only write a method call when args are present? 13:45:14 <Rhamphoryncus> wait, I don't think I'm understanding you 13:45:29 <Rhamphoryncus> You want the method to behave as a different kind of object when not called? 13:46:04 <andythenorth> I want to enable the following 13:46:10 <andythenorth> foo.colour = result 13:46:17 <andythenorth> foo.colour(args) = similar result 13:46:24 <andythenorth> but I think it's a dumb idea tbh 13:46:34 <andythenorth> and totally unnecessary 13:46:56 <Rhamphoryncus> Ahh. Assignment is technically possible, but not retrieval (it's already used to get the bound method). And yeah, bad idea :) 13:47:22 <andythenorth> I'm filing it under 'stupid' 13:48:08 <Rhamphoryncus> But a property would be okay. let you do "foo.colour = 3" or "foo.colour = (3, 15, 12, hut)" or "foo.colour = 'red'" and have that call a function 13:48:25 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@83TAADRJH.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:29 <Rhamphoryncus> That function can sanity check it and convert to a standard form 13:53:33 <andythenorth> yeah 13:53:36 <andythenorth> this is when reading 13:53:44 <andythenorth> and compactness is a virtue 13:54:04 <andythenorth> result = foo.colour() will do fine ;) 13:54:25 <Rhamphoryncus> Heh, alright 13:55:35 * andythenorth ponders "what is love" 13:55:45 <andythenorth> Haddaway seems to have done that too 13:55:46 <Rhamphoryncus> Looks like the patchset has the same issue of constant consumption. 13:56:41 <andythenorth> so the issue is that it's trivial to max out the chance of an increase? 13:56:48 <Rhamphoryncus> yup 13:56:48 <andythenorth> by delivering > amount per month? 13:56:51 <Rhamphoryncus> yup 13:56:53 <MNIM> baby don't hurt me? 13:57:03 <andythenorth> MNIM seems to be the case 13:57:13 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: and that's an issue because....? 13:57:45 <Rhamphoryncus> You might as well just have a flat chance 13:59:26 <andythenorth> ...or remove the supplies concept 13:59:42 <Rhamphoryncus> I never got to the second part of my proposal ;) 13:59:42 <planetmaker> the point of my production patches is that the required amount of delivered supplies changes with output 14:00:15 <planetmaker> thus raising the production level requires increasing supply supply. 14:00:24 *** mkv` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:00:46 <planetmaker> the point is not to make a variable increase chance 14:01:06 <Rhamphoryncus> hrm. I think I'm confusing it with andy's proposal again x_x 14:02:32 <andythenorth> if you have enough supplies on the map, you'll always be able to flood an industry with enough to get the max 14:02:36 <andythenorth> there's no way out of that 14:02:50 <planetmaker> except limiting supply production ;-) 14:03:32 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ea1a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 14:03:39 <Rhamphoryncus> My proposal used decreasing returns. If the target is 10 and that gets you a 1x chance then you'd need 90 supplies to get a 3x chance 14:04:41 <andythenorth> sounds sane 14:04:47 <andythenorth> I had the idea of efficiency somewhere 14:04:53 <andythenorth> possibly even on a per industry basis 14:05:26 <Rhamphoryncus> The target scales proportional to output, but so does the primaries that feed your supply chain, so they stay together 14:06:18 <andythenorth> I can't remember all the details of current proposal right now (and haven't read the patches)....but 14:06:33 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, and where's the difference when my proposal is like you need 1 supply / month to have a chance to increase from output lv1 to lv2 while you need n**2 supplies to increase from output lv. n to lv (n+1)? 14:06:33 <andythenorth> this was the only proposal we found that wasn't worse than just leaving it alone at >1 / month 14:06:49 <andythenorth> many proposals have been made, but they're all flawed somehow 14:07:03 <planetmaker> though I probably tried to implement something which is not exactly quadratic and toyed with something like a look-up table 14:07:54 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: ahh, I was only looking at the current increase, not what the target is 14:07:59 <planetmaker> and if you stop supplying half the required amount of supplies, you start dropping the prod. lv. 14:08:22 <planetmaker> production lv. is not only about increasing... 14:08:23 <Rhamphoryncus> If it grows quadratically then eventually consumption will exceed demand 14:08:25 <andythenorth> some of the suggestions failed because they contained 'A Xor B but also A && B'. A might be 'have cake' and B might be 'eat cake' :P 14:08:28 <planetmaker> it's a bit more complex :-) 14:09:07 <Rhamphoryncus> Quadratic growth also encourages spreading around 14:09:10 <Eddi|zuHause> man it always amazes me that the dutch set thread is so extremely fast-moving... i don't look for a day, and it has like 5 new pages 14:09:21 <Rhamphoryncus> So umm.. I like it :) 14:09:31 <Eddi|zuHause> that's more than the total rest of the forum togehter :p 14:09:46 <andythenorth> they're nice graphics 14:09:52 <andythenorth> and FooBar gets stuff done 14:10:00 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm guessing you can't hit 2k production with it, which is a large change from standard play 14:10:03 <andythenorth> you won't see him pondering here much :P 14:10:18 <MNIM> It seems to me that there's also quite a contingent of dutch OTTD fans out there. 14:10:21 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> and if you stop supplying half the required amount of supplies, you start dropping the prod. lv. <-- i hate that part about ECS... you miss one delivery, and the whole economy collapses 14:11:33 <planetmaker> I'm well aware of that. And be ensured that exactly that is what I'll try to avoid, Eddi|zuHause 14:11:59 <planetmaker> thus a sufficient long hysteresis is needed 14:12:14 <planetmaker> or a time constant that one can miss X months or so 14:12:18 <andythenorth> hence the internal stockpiles iirc 14:12:22 <planetmaker> ^^ 14:12:24 <andythenorth> not 'stockpiles' in the PBI sense 14:12:47 <planetmaker> memory of past delivery might be better :-) 14:12:53 <andythenorth> 'stockpiling' is a nice idea, but is silly really 14:13:06 <andythenorth> i.e. gradual processing 14:13:12 <andythenorth> it's a faceted special case that could be done with registers and text stack 14:13:19 <Rhamphoryncus> Alright, I think I'm back on the correct track :) 14:13:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i guess it's one of those "grown" things that are kept for hysterical raisins 14:14:43 <andythenorth> +1 14:15:03 <andythenorth> grf v9! "the removal edition" 14:15:40 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 14:15:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you'll get a strong enough momentum for that :p 14:17:45 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:07 * andythenorth reads the actual 'rework supplies' ticket 14:19:05 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: ok, so yup, if target for a 3x increase chance is n, and player drops off > n, that's fine 14:19:20 <andythenorth> they met the goal, they get the increase chance 14:19:33 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: so a flat chance, alright 14:19:36 <andythenorth> the value of n is a bunfight remaining to be had 14:19:57 <Rhamphoryncus> I'll give you a chart :) 14:20:08 <andythenorth> I personally don't find it interesting to have huge trains of supplies going to every industry ;) 14:20:19 <Rhamphoryncus> Give me a minute to relabel and such 14:20:26 <andythenorth> k 14:20:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth, a NewGRF version which only removes stuff is not worth it. As it will a) complicate OpenTTD code, will b) compilcate grf specs and c) what will be gained? 14:20:57 <andythenorth> 'tidy mind' 14:21:17 <planetmaker> that's the apple way: break backward compatibility regularily 14:21:34 <andythenorth> hmm 14:21:35 <planetmaker> I think developers don't appreciate that really 14:21:43 <andythenorth> the internet doesn't know about 'tidy mind fallacy' 14:21:52 <andythenorth> perhaps I invented it, but I thought it was in the C2 wiki or such 14:22:22 <andythenorth> expending effort on tidying things up that are of no consequence 14:22:42 <andythenorth> like folding your recycled paper neatly 14:24:22 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it irritates me that we have to have 'cargo waiting to be processed' text in FIRS windows when they are of very limited value 14:24:32 <andythenorth> (because that string is tied to use of production cb) 14:24:51 <andythenorth> It would be useful to have a cb that made industry window a blank slate 14:25:37 <Rhamphoryncus> http://i.imgur.com/tMdvr.png 14:26:27 <andythenorth> looks plausible 14:26:37 <andythenorth> you know how the production multiplier changes? 14:26:58 *** Firartix [~artixds@184.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:27:12 <Belugas> bonjour hello 14:27:40 <Rhamphoryncus> production_level? It's a number of supplies produced 8 or 9 (or 10) times a month. Unless it's different in FIRS :) 14:29:07 <andythenorth> bonjour Belugas 14:29:41 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: there's an internal multipler, iirc the range is (1..16) 14:29:47 <andythenorth> multiplier /s 14:29:53 <Rhamphoryncus> internal to FIRS? 14:29:59 <andythenorth> internal to industries 14:30:05 <andythenorth> used for primaries mostly 14:30:11 <andythenorth> it's documented, just a minute... 14:30:14 <Rhamphoryncus> but in firs? Not standard? 14:30:19 <andythenorth> it's standard 14:30:53 <Rhamphoryncus> "Current production level of the industry. Usually in range 4 .. 128, default starting level is 16. A level of 0 indicates imminent closure." for production_level 14:31:01 <andythenorth> yes 14:31:03 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Random_production_change_.2829.29 14:31:37 <Rhamphoryncus> 250*8=2000, thus the ~2k cap 14:32:38 <andythenorth> yup 14:33:09 <andythenorth> the cap actually varies according to value of props 12, 13 14:33:09 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Industries 14:34:38 <andythenorth> so how/why is your curve smooth, whereas pm's patch is stepped (in what looks to me like 16 steps corresponding to multiplier increases)? 14:34:43 <andythenorth> :) 14:36:32 <Rhamphoryncus> hrm. so props 12,13 are production_level? 14:36:41 <andythenorth> no 14:36:45 <Rhamphoryncus> I rearranged the math to avoid division until the end 14:36:49 <andythenorth> they're the input multipliers to the production multiplier 14:37:02 <andythenorth> production multiplier * prop 12,13 14:37:18 <andythenorth> is amount of cargo produced 8 or 9 times per month 14:37:21 <andythenorth> (iirc) 14:37:39 <Rhamphoryncus> And 12,13 is treated as a 16-bit value? 14:38:59 <Rhamphoryncus> So the real cap would be 9*255*65535 = 150402825? 14:39:31 *** _maddy [~plaiho@182.21.240.77.static.louhi.net] has joined #openttd 14:39:57 <Belugas> bonjour andythenorth, comment vas tu? 14:40:46 <andythenorth> still writing a pixel generator.... 14:41:12 <andythenorth> ~2 weeks so far 14:41:17 <andythenorth> but think of the time saved! 14:41:18 <andythenorth> :P 14:45:26 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: "The production rate is a value between 04h and 80h (initial value 10h)" 14:45:40 <andythenorth> @calc 128*255*9 14:45:40 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 293760 14:46:27 <andythenorth> but I'm not sure that's quite how it works anyway 14:46:34 <andythenorth> "The properties specify the amount produced at default production level" 14:46:50 <andythenorth> and also "Multiply operations that would bring the production above 8 times of the original will only increase it to that value." 14:47:25 <andythenorth> in this case I've always found the spec precise, but hard to understand 14:47:35 <andythenorth> reading the code gives a better answer :P 14:47:37 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah.. 14:47:54 <andythenorth> industry_cmd.cpp will know what *actually* happens 14:48:03 <andythenorth> and that varies from spec occasionally anyway 14:48:33 * Rhamphoryncus nods 14:48:38 <Rhamphoryncus> I'll take a look 14:48:42 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, you may also not overflow... 14:48:55 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, that'd be bad :) 14:48:59 <planetmaker> uint16 14:49:07 <Rhamphoryncus> for calculations? 14:49:11 <andythenorth> if you're in the area, and you get excited, see http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/855 14:49:16 <andythenorth> as that's been bugging me for ages 14:49:29 <andythenorth> all industries of type x have same production at game start 14:49:36 <andythenorth> which destroys a lot of the early gameplay 14:49:47 <andythenorth> it's very bland :( 14:50:33 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah 14:50:53 <Rhamphoryncus> That can be my next thing to work on :) 14:53:16 <andythenorth> it should be decoupled from supplies mechanism, if I've understood automatic production multiplier correctly 14:53:24 <andythenorth> but...I'm not sure 14:53:53 <andythenorth> it may be that register values for supply logic need initialising accordingly wrt randomised production 14:54:16 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah 14:55:44 <Rhamphoryncus> Oh.. duh. 12,13 is for two different types 14:55:52 <Rhamphoryncus> i->produced_cargo_waiting[0] = min(0xffff, i->produced_cargo_waiting[0] + i->production_rate[0]); 14:55:52 <Rhamphoryncus> i->produced_cargo_waiting[1] = min(0xffff, i->produced_cargo_waiting[1] + i->production_rate[1]); 14:56:18 <andythenorth> yes 14:56:21 <andythenorth> there are two output cargos 14:56:39 <Rhamphoryncus> All I'm seeing there is a single value range 0.255 14:57:06 <Rhamphoryncus> Aha, found something setting that 14:57:45 <_maddy> anyone up for a multiplayer game?? 14:58:07 <Rhamphoryncus> this->production_rate[0] = min(CeilDiv(indspec->production_rate[0] * this->prod_level, PRODLEVEL_DEFAULT), 0xFF); 14:58:07 <Rhamphoryncus> this->production_rate[1] = min(CeilDiv(indspec->production_rate[1] * this->prod_level, PRODLEVEL_DEFAULT), 0xFF); 14:59:03 <Rhamphoryncus> that's for old, non-smooth economies 15:00:29 <andythenorth> the economy in FIRS is ignored 15:00:50 <andythenorth> iirc 15:00:58 <andythenorth> because we handle the callbacks explicitly 15:01:10 <andythenorth> although there may be some parameter settings where the economy is respected 15:01:42 * Rhamphoryncus nods 15:02:08 <andythenorth> it confuses me that we have production_rate and prod_level, but neither is labelled production_multiplier :) 15:02:30 <planetmaker> industries w/ production callback ignore economy 15:02:47 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah 15:03:30 <andythenorth> this is wrt cb29 and 35, where returning 04h will respect the economy settings 15:04:04 <andythenorth> let's read some actual code though... 15:04:59 <andythenorth> ok so the FIRS primaries use production cb, but for consumption not production 15:05:18 <andythenorth> so my memory hasn't failed yet :P 15:05:27 <andythenorth> well, at least not for that case 15:05:55 <Rhamphoryncus> ah, smooth economy is disabled for industries with a callback. That explains some of it 15:06:03 <andythenorth> k 15:06:32 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 15:07:34 <andythenorth> the FIRS primaries also never seem to return 04h so that's also a non-issue 15:07:50 <andythenorth> so economy is simply a non-issue for FIRS primaries, my conclusion 15:08:18 <Rhamphoryncus> PRODLEVEL_DEFAULT is 0x10 ie 16, so if your prod_level is 10 then production_rate = old_production_rate * 10 / 16 15:08:51 <andythenorth> yes that sounds right 15:09:06 <andythenorth> @calc 65536/16 15:09:06 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 4096 15:09:09 <planetmaker> you have a produce callback where you can make use of it explicitly... 15:09:51 <andythenorth> why didn't we implement that for randomisation? there was at least one reason... 15:10:13 <andythenorth> maybe we don't have any method to randomise production multiplier on construction 15:10:27 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 15:10:41 <Rhamphoryncus> prod_level ends up being squared. 64 hits the cap 15:11:34 <andythenorth> common.DEFAULT_CC1_INDEX or just common.CC1 ? :P 15:11:50 <andythenorth> explicit versus verbose :| 15:11:56 <Rhamphoryncus> And once you had it at 64 for a few months and you've hit the cap you can drop it to 16 and still maintain the cap 15:12:26 <andythenorth> are you sure? 15:12:35 <andythenorth> sounds odd 15:12:52 <Rhamphoryncus> It does sound odd 15:13:45 <andythenorth> I'd look at the handlers for cb29 and 35, I would hope that prod_level is not increased once the cap is reached 15:14:25 <andythenorth> meh 15:14:47 <andythenorth> I'm not convinced that writing "common.colours['CC1']" everywhere is actually better than writing "202" and using find/replace 15:15:59 <Rhamphoryncus> Where are the cb numbers defined? I'm only finding names 15:16:07 <andythenorth> I'd have to read the code... 15:16:21 <andythenorth> there is header file somewhere else that would tell you 15:16:28 <andythenorth> but I should read this code again anyway 15:16:37 <Rhamphoryncus> monthly_prod_change and random_prod_change? 15:16:44 <andythenorth> yup 15:16:58 <Rhamphoryncus> or CBID_INDUSTRY_MONTHLYPROD_CHANGE and CBID_INDUSTRY_PRODUCTION_CHANGE 15:17:53 <andythenorth> hmm 15:18:12 <andythenorth> even if prod cb. is enabled, returning 04h *does* respect economy 15:18:15 <planetmaker> using NML you should not need the numbers... 15:18:33 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: yes those 15:18:34 <planetmaker> the names should speak for themselves. Usually. Otherwise you'll have to dig in the NML source 15:18:48 <Rhamphoryncus> The squaring sounds odd but may be right: you may go from 64/month to 80/month, a difference of 16, but later on going from 2000/month to 2200/month is a difference of 200. That's due to squaring 15:18:49 <andythenorth> industry_cmd.cpp 15:18:55 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: I need numbers to understand andy ;) 15:19:07 <planetmaker> yes... he talks numbers only... 15:19:16 <andythenorth> didn't have the code open 15:19:17 <andythenorth> do now 15:19:22 <planetmaker> always find it confusing when talking nml callbacks 15:19:48 <planetmaker> it usually doesn't help my understanding either ;-) 15:19:51 <andythenorth> I'll adapt at some point 15:19:57 <andythenorth> the more NML I write... 15:20:24 <Rhamphoryncus> So if you use a return that tells it to increment or decrement by 1 it alters prod_level, which then feeds into production_rate to smooth out the effect 15:20:25 * planetmaker has doubts ;-) 15:20:25 <andythenorth> although I'd need frosch and co to also then use NML references, not numbers :| 15:20:34 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: yes 15:20:57 <Rhamphoryncus> But if we wanted we could set production_rate directly and ignore prod_level. That'd let us use our own smoothing 15:21:03 <andythenorth> we could yes 15:21:11 <planetmaker> I usually guess from context what the number is supposed to mean 15:21:16 <andythenorth> it was convenient to rely on the game's built in handling 15:21:23 <andythenorth> but we can use the produce() cb 15:22:08 <andythenorth> whereever possible, I tried to use game's mechanics rather than roll my own 15:22:13 <andythenorth> not always possible 15:22:17 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah 15:22:25 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, if possible, it's a good idea to rely on the game... 15:22:46 <planetmaker> it's less confusing then for users as the game switches then actually remain meaningful 15:22:51 <Rhamphoryncus> What's bothering me is that prod_level is another saturation function. 16/16 is stay level, 17/16 is increase, 15/16 is decrease 15:23:16 <andythenorth> ? 15:23:39 <andythenorth> explain that another way :) 15:23:50 <Rhamphoryncus> Once you get it over 16, given enough months it should eventually give you a production_rate of 255 15:24:02 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:24:08 <andythenorth> ok 15:24:19 <andythenorth> hmm 15:24:22 <andythenorth> that's not the case though 15:24:50 <andythenorth> work it through with numbers 15:25:03 <andythenorth> let's use dec for ease 15:25:04 <andythenorth> assume prop 12 is 08d 15:25:18 <andythenorth> and prod_level is 16 (default) 15:25:52 <andythenorth> @calc 8*((16*8)/16) 15:25:52 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 64 15:25:57 <andythenorth> 64t per month 15:26:35 <Rhamphoryncus> what's production_rate now? 15:26:42 <andythenorth> I need to check 15:26:47 <andythenorth> I'm not sure about the /16 tbh 15:27:00 <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, I just realized: the compounding only ticks when you increment or decrement production 15:27:30 <andythenorth> yes 15:27:32 <Rhamphoryncus> So you have to bounce between 17 and 18, not just stay at 17 15:28:01 <andythenorth> in default game, you only increment when the random production cb swings by and marks your industry instance for a production change 15:28:07 <andythenorth> decrement same 15:28:13 * Rhamphoryncus nods 15:28:27 <Rhamphoryncus> That explains why we don't see the squaring normally 15:28:29 <andythenorth> in FIRS we use the monthly cb for more frequent smaller changes 15:30:08 <andythenorth> maybe that's actually less fun :o :P 15:30:20 <andythenorth> maybe 600t -> 1200t is a fun change to deal with 15:30:20 <Rhamphoryncus> heh 15:30:28 <andythenorth> and vice versa 15:30:35 <andythenorth> but on big maps...not 15:30:35 <Rhamphoryncus> Maybe as a temporary burst :) 15:30:58 <Rhamphoryncus> "XXX has had record production! Production doubled for 3 months!" 15:31:40 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: l2162 - is part of the confusion here that 'production_rate' has two meanings? 15:31:46 <andythenorth> I don't read C++ brilliantly 15:31:59 <Rhamphoryncus> There's prod_level and production_rate 15:32:07 <andythenorth> but it looks like to me it's the name of a prop, and the name of a var multiplied by prod_level 15:32:14 <andythenorth> which if so, is fricking confusing 15:32:26 <Rhamphoryncus> I believe 12,13 are production_rate 15:32:34 <andythenorth> but production_rate is also amount produced 15:32:42 <andythenorth> I write that kind of code too :P 15:32:53 <andythenorth> foo = transform(foo) 15:33:15 <Rhamphoryncus> case 0x12: // Production multipliers 15:33:15 <Rhamphoryncus> case 0x13: 15:33:15 <Rhamphoryncus> indsp->production_rate[prop - 0x12] = buf->ReadByte(); 15:33:21 <andythenorth> yup 15:33:27 <andythenorth> k 15:33:32 <Rhamphoryncus> There isn't multiple meanings to production_rate 15:33:48 <Rhamphoryncus> You can set it directly OR go through prod_level. 15:33:59 <andythenorth> this->production_rate[0] = min(CeilDiv(indspec->production_rate[0] * this->prod_level, PRODLEVEL_DEFAULT), 0xFF); 15:34:00 <andythenorth> ? 15:34:06 <Rhamphoryncus> Is going through prod_level 15:34:24 <Rhamphoryncus> that's only called if you use a return that changes prod_level 15:35:13 <andythenorth> k 15:36:16 <andythenorth> still baffles me 15:36:16 <Rhamphoryncus> So here's the issue: if we use supplies to change prod_level then eventually you won't need the supplies anymore 15:36:25 <andythenorth> yes 15:36:34 <andythenorth> that's by design 15:36:39 <Rhamphoryncus> really? 15:36:47 <andythenorth> check out FIRS parameters ;) 15:37:30 <andythenorth> "eventually you won't need the supplies anymore" iff "production levels never fall" 15:37:51 <andythenorth> If you allow primary production decrease, you need supplies to maintain current level 15:38:12 <andythenorth> otherwise, once maxed, then no supplies needed 15:38:14 <Rhamphoryncus> No 15:38:23 <Rhamphoryncus> Even if you allow falling you won't need to maintain it 15:38:31 <andythenorth> for why? 15:38:39 <andythenorth> does the code say that? :) 15:39:03 <Rhamphoryncus> Once you have production_rate capped at 255 then you only need a prod_level of 16 to maintain it 15:39:28 <andythenorth> really? 15:39:33 <andythenorth> if so that's a bug 15:39:37 <andythenorth> in openttd 15:40:09 <Rhamphoryncus> That's the design of that function. 255 * 16 / 16 == 255 15:40:31 <andythenorth> but to get to 255, what's your production level? 15:40:36 <andythenorth> prod_level =...? 15:41:11 <Rhamphoryncus> You need a combination of prod_level AND updates to prod_level 15:41:21 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has joined #openttd 15:41:35 <Rhamphoryncus> Give me a couple minutes and I'll figure out how many months of continuous increases will do it 15:41:54 <andythenorth> assume you need prod_level n to get to 255 15:41:56 <andythenorth> and n != 16 15:42:05 <andythenorth> how would you get from n back to 16 without calling recalculate_multipliers or such? 15:42:56 <Rhamphoryncus> prod_level isn't production level. It's production CHANGE level 15:43:07 <andythenorth> it's the production multiplier 15:43:12 <Rhamphoryncus> yup 15:43:22 <Rhamphoryncus> So you only need a multiplier >= 1.0 15:43:26 <andythenorth> the terms are somewhat opaque btw 15:43:26 <Rhamphoryncus> err > 1.0 15:43:33 <Rhamphoryncus> yup 15:43:35 <andythenorth> work it through with maths 15:43:37 *** enr1x_ [~kiike@62.57.4.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 15:43:40 <Rhamphoryncus> I am 15:43:47 <Rhamphoryncus> But I keep being distracted by typing 15:43:54 <andythenorth> I am 99% certain that you're wrong, but I have room for doubts ;) 15:44:11 <andythenorth> due to finding big bugs here before 15:44:26 <andythenorth> which also took some convincing of others :P 15:45:42 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.4.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:46:08 <Rhamphoryncus> Okay, on the 12th increase, which puts you to prod_level 28, you'll hit production_rate of 358, which'll cap down to 255 15:46:15 <Rhamphoryncus> faster than I was expecting >.> 15:46:44 <Rhamphoryncus> oops, that's the 11th :) 15:47:18 <Rhamphoryncus> Just doesn't seem right 15:47:47 <Rhamphoryncus> All the other documentation I've seen implied a direct effect, not this indirect one 15:48:35 * Rhamphoryncus fires up openttd 15:52:45 * Rhamphoryncus segfaults gdb 15:56:15 <Rhamphoryncus> Hah, I'm using smooth economy which of course bypasses this 15:56:33 <Rhamphoryncus> That might be the issue: you're expecting this to behave like smooth economy, but it's totally separate 15:58:46 *** Twofish [~Twofish@77-95-76-210.bb.cust.hknett.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:01:33 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: gtg, back in an hour or so 16:01:37 <Rhamphoryncus> cya 16:01:50 <andythenorth> look for recalculate_multipliers in the cb handling 16:02:00 <andythenorth> I think it's called when changing the prod level 16:02:05 <andythenorth> anyway...bbl 16:02:11 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 16:02:25 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-063-083.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 16:09:00 <Rhamphoryncus> .. fuck. Well, we both failed to read the code 16:09:04 <Rhamphoryncus> this->production_rate[0] = min(CeilDiv(indspec->production_rate[0] * this->prod_level, PRODLEVEL_DEFAULT), 0xFF); 16:09:22 <Rhamphoryncus> That's *indspec* production_rate. NOT the last production_rate here. 16:13:07 <Rhamphoryncus> So.. there are two production_rate's after all :) 16:13:23 <Rhamphoryncus> Both the industry spec and this specific instance of that industry 16:25:54 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:34:32 <__ln__> how does the german 'Sie' work in plural, or does it? 16:41:00 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has joined #openttd 16:43:46 <Nat_aS> oh god 16:44:01 <Nat_aS> I just had an idiot on the internet tell me video game prices in the US are at an all time low 16:44:13 <Nat_aS> compared to Australia maybe 16:44:50 *** Guest4682 [~macee@54005F81.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd 16:45:06 *** Guest4682 is now known as macee 16:45:07 <planetmaker> __ln__, it works. After all, it is already plural 16:45:42 <planetmaker> You use it the same way basically as singular 16:46:48 <__ln__> ach so 16:49:33 <planetmaker> __ln__, "ach so" usually is only used when the answer is contrary to the previous believe or statement. 16:50:13 <planetmaker> s/believe/assumption/ 16:50:17 <__ln__> hmmm, i'll try to remember that. dnk. 16:50:58 <__ln__> so with 'Sie' it is ambiguous (without context) whether someone is speaking to many people or just one person? 16:51:05 <planetmaker> yep 16:51:25 <__ln__> that's so english :) 16:51:33 <planetmaker> if it's doubtful, you use "Sie, Herr/Frau XY" or "Sie alle" 16:53:20 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-159-169.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 16:53:29 <planetmaker> the latter "Sie alle" is usually used in spoken language only, though 16:57:41 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has joined #openttd 17:01:03 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-127-79.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 17:01:06 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 17:05:43 *** FHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:06:47 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-19-72.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:17:46 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 17:27:00 *** Keyboard_Warrior [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 17:30:13 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:32:57 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6CEBE.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 17:34:22 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:39:41 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.178.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:42:39 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:49:14 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 17:53:39 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 17:54:44 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AFE4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:00:37 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe9f9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:04:44 *** _maddy [~plaiho@182.21.240.77.static.louhi.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:15:02 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:19:52 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host242-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 18:20:02 <Wolf01> efening 18:23:44 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 18:25:26 *** Vic|UNNT [~a@gw-7.211.ru] has joined #openttd 18:25:31 <Vic|UNNT> hello all 18:26:44 <Vic|UNNT> im trying to un my own server, ive did a port forvarding but it still dont shows in server list... that is the reason?:( 18:27:45 <planetmaker> aha. what port forwarding did you do where? 18:28:03 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: did you figure out production? 18:28:09 <Vic|UNNT> on my router 18:28:24 <planetmaker> and on your computer? 18:28:24 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: yup. We were both misreading the line we pasted several times 18:28:28 <planetmaker> that firewall? 18:28:28 <Vic|UNNT> 3978,3979 to 192.168.1.113 my IP on it 18:28:34 <Rhamphoryncus> this->production_rate[0] = min(CeilDiv(indspec->production_rate[0] * this->prod_level, PRODLEVEL_DEFAULT), 0xFF); 18:28:43 <Rhamphoryncus> that's *indspec*->production_rate 18:28:44 <Vic|UNNT> no firewall on my comp 18:28:46 <planetmaker> and both, UDP and TCP protocols? 18:28:50 <Vic|UNNT> both 18:28:56 <planetmaker> and... lool 18:29:03 <planetmaker> 192.168.x.y are private IP addresses 18:29:14 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: I was reading it that way 18:29:17 <planetmaker> they are never communicated to the outside world 18:29:19 <andythenorth> it gets the value of prop 12 in that case 18:29:23 <andythenorth> I'm just bad at explaining :P 18:29:36 <Rhamphoryncus> .. that'd explain why you didn't understand me :) 18:29:41 * Vic|UNNT slaps planetmaker around a bit with a large trout 18:29:48 <Vic|UNNT> it connect by router:) 18:30:17 * planetmaker grabs the trout. And makes filled trout in salt crust 18:30:23 <Rhamphoryncus> Oi, I didn't realize prop 12/13 was on the indspec too 18:31:09 <andythenorth> that's why I think production_rate is a misleading identifier 18:31:50 <andythenorth> I can see why it's used in two different ways, but it's easily conflated (especially when searching source)] 18:31:57 <planetmaker> Vic|UNNT, also make sure you set your server to advertise and to play an internat (not LAN) game 18:32:06 <planetmaker> (openttd.cfg) 18:32:34 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah 18:32:50 <Rhamphoryncus> it should be indspec->base_production_rate 18:33:01 <andythenorth> yeah, that's not as leet though 18:33:02 <andythenorth> :P 18:33:06 <Rhamphoryncus> heh 18:33:16 <Rhamphoryncus> But I wouldn't have wasted an hour of your time 18:33:46 <andythenorth> np ;) 18:33:56 <andythenorth> it's useful to read the code again 18:34:04 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah 18:34:09 <andythenorth> and you just reviewed openttd and found no bugs? 18:34:11 * Vic|UNNT slaps planetmaker around a bit with a large trout 18:34:14 <Vic|UNNT> i did:) 18:34:42 * andythenorth is tempted to rename those vars in industry_cmd.cpp 18:34:59 <andythenorth> that would be my third patch if accepted 18:35:07 <Vic|UNNT> ive just understand... i connected to internet via router, and it connected via another router...:( 18:35:10 <Rhamphoryncus> Sounds like a good idea 18:35:27 <planetmaker> then, if you set both ports for forward both UDP and TCP to your server, enabled internet game and advertising, it shall work 18:35:28 <Vic|UNNT> and i havent access to another router settings.. 18:35:44 <planetmaker> unless you didn't do that completely or your computer does have a FW 18:35:57 <planetmaker> server.openttd.org is your friend to check 18:36:20 <planetmaker> and if advertising fails, you usually get a message 18:36:22 <Vic|UNNT> 404error 18:36:26 <Rhamphoryncus> So all I'm doing with this patchset is testing it, fixing any bugs I find, and perhaps smoothing the math as in my chart? 18:36:54 <Vic|UNNT> http://www.openttd.org/en/servers ? 18:36:54 <planetmaker> servers 18:37:03 <planetmaker> yeah 18:39:41 <Rhamphoryncus> btw, I came up with a decent way to regulate delivery to a station as a player. Have a vehicle there doing nothing but full load & unload, then have your train go to the near side, transfer, then to the far side and load back up 18:40:00 <Rhamphoryncus> The waiting vehicle will immediately skim some off, the train will get the rest 18:41:36 <Vic|UNNT> ok 18:41:59 <Vic|UNNT> at this point i have to have white IP for internet connectrion... 18:42:04 <Vic|UNNT> so, thnx for help 18:42:27 <Rhamphoryncus> Want more to that station? Build a second vehicle with its own bay. You can even lock the vehicle in (remove roads out), assuming breakdowns are disabled. 18:44:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24000 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files): 18:44:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:44:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 13 changes by OliTTD 18:44:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 5 changes by Parastais 18:44:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: romanian - 1 changes by kkmic 18:44:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: serbian - 4 changes by etran 18:44:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 1 changes by nglekhoi 18:45:56 <Rhamphoryncus> I kind of wish that was builtin to FIRS, but it should really be in openttd itself as a partial-unload order 18:46:29 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 18:48:01 *** nisstyre [~nisstyre@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:48:14 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 18:48:17 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 18:48:49 <Alberth> efenink 18:49:49 <frosch123> iwnynk 18:50:13 * frosch123 .DoSports() 18:50:17 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe9f9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:03:36 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:03:42 <andythenorth> Alberth: o/ 19:07:57 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 19:08:00 *** Cybert1nus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has joined #openttd 19:08:32 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 19:08:56 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:13:14 <Alberth> hi :) 19:13:40 <andythenorth> I invented...more 19:13:51 <andythenorth> I've either done something really good, or really bad :) 19:14:23 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 19:14:27 * Alberth guesses it is the former 19:15:38 <Alberth> I'd like to do some digging why my code is not working tonight 19:16:16 <andythenorth> what are you coding? 19:18:04 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 19:19:01 <Alberth> I am changing the encoding program of rcd files, but the output is changing. So now I have to write a rcd inspection program to see whether the error is in the encoding program, or in the decoding. Unfortunately, the inspection program believes the image is wrong :p 19:19:31 <Alberth> so instead of going from 2 to 1 problem, I go from 2 to 3 problems 19:20:58 <andythenorth> I shall not bother you with python problems then :) 19:26:56 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-31-132-172.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:32:33 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.104.165] has joined #openttd 19:32:57 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-44-254.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:33:00 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 19:40:35 *** Cybert1nus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 19:40:46 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has joined #openttd 19:42:58 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-31-132-172.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:49:34 *** smoovi [~smoovi@e178192168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 20:03:59 <Alberth> ah, using one veriable for two purposes doesn't quite work :) 20:04:21 <andythenorth> me or you? 20:04:27 <andythenorth> or openttd? 20:06:49 <Alberth> me :) 20:07:41 <Alberth> offset = rcd.uint8(offset + ptr) 20:07:41 <Alberth> count = rcd.uint8(offset + ptr + 1) 20:07:41 <Alberth> this does not read two consequtives bytes from memory :p 20:10:47 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-31-132-172.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 20:11:29 * andythenorth ponders 20:11:48 <andythenorth> 'pc_stripe_colour()' or 'pc_stripe()' where pc = PixaColour 20:11:57 <andythenorth> :P 20:12:19 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:13:11 <Alberth> no idea what 'stripe' exactly means, but doesn't it imply 'colour'? 20:13:16 <andythenorth> I think so 20:13:25 <andythenorth> if I only used these occasionally I'd include 'colour' 20:13:34 <andythenorth> but I have lines and lines of them consecutively 20:13:53 <andythenorth> and the definition of the object is nearby 20:14:28 * Alberth would go for the short version 20:15:35 *** holyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 20:16:55 <andythenorth> 'building one to throw away' is good 20:17:06 <andythenorth> but making the second one is work :P 20:17:24 * andythenorth is refactoring list definitions which is mind-numbingly dull 20:17:28 <andythenorth> maybe I should script it :P 20:18:32 <Alberth> use a good editor :p 20:22:00 <andythenorth> how odd 20:22:05 <andythenorth> something worked - surprisingly 20:22:51 *** Keyboard_Warrior [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:27:22 <Alberth> it must be wrong :p 20:30:21 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 20:30:35 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 20:36:06 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:37:12 *** Progman_ [~progman@p57A19FD8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:41:40 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1AFE4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:41:45 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman 20:46:03 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.jkit.nl] has joined #openttd 20:48:26 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19FD8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Progman] 20:48:41 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19FD8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:59:34 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:00:33 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has joined #openttd 21:03:52 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 21:13:00 *** macee [~macee@54005F81.dsl.pool.telekom.hu] has left #openttd [] 21:19:10 <andythenorth> anyone see a way to get started with this module? 21:19:11 <andythenorth> https://github.com/jerem/psdparse 21:19:26 <andythenorth> I can't figure out which classes might return an image from a layer 21:21:50 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 21:23:53 <andythenorth> ach 21:23:55 <andythenorth> figured it 21:29:23 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe9f9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 21:37:25 <Rhamphoryncus> umm.. oh, that won't help. Started a test game with *only* firs. Can't even load supplies 21:37:44 <andythenorth> you might need some vehicles :P 21:37:45 <andythenorth> add them 21:38:26 <Rhamphoryncus> Can't modify existing games, unless there's a secret trick? 21:38:39 <Yexo> nope 21:38:47 <Yexo> and if you've just started a new game, there is no harm in restarting 21:38:58 <Rubidium> pff... nothing a hex editor can't solve ;) 21:39:06 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: you have newgrf developer tools enabled? 21:39:18 <Rhamphoryncus> nope 21:39:21 <andythenorth> you'll definitely want those if you're writing newgrf :D 21:39:27 <Rubidium> yay... you voided someone else's warranty ;) 21:39:36 <andythenorth> http://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Debugging 21:39:45 <Rhamphoryncus> Okay, before I start building again I better do that :) 21:39:57 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: I have gdb. My warranty was voided to begin with. 21:40:10 <andythenorth> making test games for supplies - a lot more boring than writing the code for supplies 21:40:17 *** peteris [~peteris@78.84.97.170] has joined #openttd 21:40:26 <andythenorth> you have to set up an entire fricking primary-secondary-tertiary chain :P 21:40:44 <Zuu> Can't an AI help with that? 21:41:10 <Rhamphoryncus> heh 21:41:16 <andythenorth> write a testing AI Zuu ? 21:41:39 <Rhamphoryncus> Hey, there's the bounding box option! I came across the keyboard shortcut a bit ago but couldn't get it to work :D 21:41:44 <Zuu> I've already offered quite high level building blocks in SuperLib for road and air transport. 21:42:10 * andythenorth goes back to generating sprites ;) 21:42:44 <Zuu> Someone managed to make a networking AI using SuperLib for station and road building in just 1000 lines of code. 21:43:07 * Rhamphoryncus is a cheater :O 21:44:02 <Zuu> That said, I have only packaged the road pathfinder in a Connect(tile_a, tile_b) function with my finetuning of it. 21:47:42 <Rhamphoryncus> So if I save this game, modify the grf, and restart, will openttd refuse to load it? Or will happily continue until it dies from me changing registers? 21:48:15 <Yexo> if you have enabled the newgrf developer tools openttd will continue, if not it'll refuse to load the game 21:48:17 * Rhamphoryncus applauds himself. Load coal at the lime kiln and transport to coal mine >.> 21:48:27 <Rhamphoryncus> ahh cool 21:48:45 <Yexo> if you change too much you might be able to crash openttd that way 21:48:57 <Yexo> it shouldn't happen, but it's hard to protect against everything a newgrf can do 21:49:13 * Rhamphoryncus nods 21:52:57 <xiong> Do yapf.rail_longer_platform_penalty and etc. apply only to station stops or to all routing through platform tracks? 21:53:27 <Yexo> that one applies only when stopping 21:54:43 <xiong> Good. I expect yapf.rail_station_penalty applies when through routing. 21:55:38 <xiong> I do not see why my trains are taking an extremely long detour in preference to routing through a platform track. 21:56:42 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [] 21:58:18 <Rhamphoryncus> that station penalty might be per tile. Dunno. 21:58:34 <xiong> ! 21:59:00 <xiong> There are distinct longer/shorter penalties per station and per tile. 21:59:46 <xiong> yapf.rail_longer_platform_penalty = 800 yapf.rail_longer_platform_per_tile_penalty = 100 22:00:38 <andythenorth> hmm 22:00:43 <andythenorth> that was a fun bug to eat 22:00:53 <xiong> yapf.rail_station_penalty = 1000 yapf.rail_pbs_station_penalty = 800 22:01:19 <xiong> Those are not real high but if either apply per tile, well, I'm looking at 12-tile platforms. 22:02:40 <xiong> Well, I can tinker with the pf weightings or I can order my trains via. 22:02:42 <planetmaker> nice white line programme, Alberth. Thanks 22:03:16 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: or don't force them through a platform? :) 22:03:51 <Rubidium> not that it has much use in 32bpp land; there you just want transparent pixels ;) 22:04:02 <xiong> I have plenty of open platforms, Rhamphoryncus; that's why I built the station that way. 22:04:03 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-115-76.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 22:04:03 <Rubidium> no blue and no white 22:04:11 *** Elukka [~Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 22:04:18 <michi_cc> xiong: The long/short stuff only applies to the destination stations, the normal and pbs station penalties apply to all station tiles. 22:05:23 <michi_cc> And yes, the latter two are by tile. 22:05:54 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has joined #openttd 22:05:55 <planetmaker> true, Rubidium. I keep forgetting that 22:06:05 <xiong> michi_cc, Are you saying that with the above settings, my through trains see a penalty of 12*1800 = 21600? 22:06:45 <michi_cc> Code is "segment_cost += Yapf().PfGetSettings().rail_station_penalty * platform_length;" 22:06:47 <xiong> I think that's what you just said but it's an impressively high figure. 22:07:25 <xiong> Did I ignorantly boost those penalties at some earlier date? 22:07:48 <michi_cc> The PBS penalty only applies if the tile has a reservation though, if not, it's only the normal penalty. 22:07:50 <Wolf01> 'night 22:07:54 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host242-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:08:14 <xiong> Even 12000 is prohibitive. 22:09:14 *** holyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [Quit: Forlater kanalen] 22:09:21 <Alberth> 1000 seems default 22:09:52 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 22:10:21 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-127-79.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:12:29 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-86-31-132-172.oxfd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88 [Firefox 11.0/20120222074758]] 22:13:01 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:18:53 <xiong> Well, okay, default. But I need to change something. Either a different plan of routing, different orders, or different penalties. Obviously. 22:19:56 <xiong> I guess that, even per tile, 1000 is not unreasonable on a network where player hasn't *planned* stations with excess platforms (possibly) for through trains. 22:21:18 <Rhamphoryncus> If you're planning excess platforms then you can plan some non-platforms 22:21:24 <xiong> Thing is, I built excess platforms and also through non-platform tracks. Trains exiting the station cannot get to the through tracks so I thought they'd exit through platforms. But they're taking the very long way around instead. 22:22:26 <xiong> I suspect it would actually be better to have no non-platform tracks at all, so penalties are equal on all tracks. That's easier than changing all train orders or tinkering with .cfg. 22:22:49 <Rhamphoryncus> Could be 22:22:51 <xiong> My belt got caught in my suspenders. 22:23:08 <Rhamphoryncus> Changing the weighting is generally a bad idea 22:24:16 <xiong> I only recall making one penalty change; I adjusted the longer/shorter penalties for trains of radically different lengths hitting stations with mixed-length platforms. 22:24:23 <xiong> That seemed to work well. 22:25:07 <xiong> But I'm inclined to chalk up my troubles now to poor station design. Well, thanks all. 22:26:22 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19FD8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:31:07 <xiong> Yes, that fixed it. The outside tracks are now platforms as well. They're linked and signaled differently but yapf sees them as platforms so, equal penalties and the simple route is chosen. Thanks again, guys. 22:32:51 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 22:33:34 <Rhamphoryncus> Does an industry's random_bits get reset every month? Or is it per-call, also per-month in this case? 22:37:05 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.104.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:38:14 <planetmaker> it's set at industry creation 22:38:32 <planetmaker> unless you ask them to be re-randomized 22:38:54 <Rhamphoryncus> hrm 22:39:13 <Rhamphoryncus> thanks 22:43:29 * andythenorth is a github newbie 22:43:35 <andythenorth> how do I 'like' a project :P 22:45:11 * Rhamphoryncus rearranges your punctuation. "how do I, like, a project?" 22:45:32 <andythenorth> phooey 22:45:41 <Rhamphoryncus> <--- not helping 22:46:02 *** FHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 22:49:41 <Eddi|zuHause> something makes mingw-get-inst crash... 22:57:08 * andythenorth -> sleep 22:57:09 <andythenorth> bye 22:57:11 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 22:57:12 <Rhamphoryncus> cya 23:03:00 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido] 23:04:30 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:16:35 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 23:22:46 *** Firartix [~artixds@184.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 23:26:46 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:28:45 *** Illegal_Alien [~Illegal_A@ip4da39612.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The professional IRC Client :D] 23:32:46 <frosch123> night 23:32:48 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fe9f9.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:35:26 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d08ea1a.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us] 23:49:18 *** Wooteman [6dbdd0ab@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 23:49:47 *** Wooteman [6dbdd0ab@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [] 23:50:17 <Rhamphoryncus> is it possible to inspect random_bits for an industry via the debugging tools? 23:50:53 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:53:23 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:54:25 <Rhamphoryncus> Nevermind, figured out how to eek out the information I want from the registers saved 23:54:46 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@84.82.255.173] has joined #openttd 23:56:59 *** Twofish [~Twofish@77-95-76-210.bb.cust.hknett.no] has joined #openttd