Log for #openttd on 9th March 2012:
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01:57:30  <Rhamphoryncus> augh, I just tried to scroll using WASD.  I blame minecraft.
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03:11:44  <Rhamphoryncus> NARS isn't giving me the 1890 livestock car.  I can only get the 1800/1845 cattle car and the 1961 modern livestock car.  Fresh game, no other newgrf's, "vehicles never expire" + resetengines doesn't help.  Any way I can try to debug it?
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03:46:44  <Rhamphoryncus> And having an express car that can do 160 km/h, but requiring a caboose that can only do 128 km/h, is just cruel.
03:48:19  <Nat_aS> who was making the Unrealistic train set?
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04:06:14  <DanMacK> Hey all
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04:35:03  <Nat_aS> how should I expand this station?
04:35:27  <Nat_aS> I want to add more platforms, but I also want to make a junction so I can have a branch line heading north
04:36:24  <Nat_aS> this is normaly how I expand stations, but I have no room to do that here. what do?
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05:13:02  <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_aS: rotate it?
05:13:20  * Rhamphoryncus hits 'x' futilely in firefox
05:13:34  <Nat_aS> hmm
05:13:49  <Nat_aS> well I want a big station that trains can enter/exit in two directions
05:13:56  <Nat_aS> I supose I could make it 10 platforms wide.
05:14:10  <Nat_aS> with tracks spliting as they leave the station
05:14:16  <Nat_aS> but that might add a lot of traffic
05:14:30  <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm.  Rotating would only help for traffic from the southeast.  Not traffic from the northwest
05:14:32  <Nat_aS> Satilite platforms going both ways could mitigate that though.
05:14:51  <Nat_aS> I want to expand that station into an omega type on my chart.
05:14:58  <Rhamphoryncus> Do you ever use bridges/tunnels?
05:15:11  <Nat_aS> not usualy for stations
05:15:39  <Rhamphoryncus> They give a great deal more flexibility in layout
05:15:57  <Nat_aS> can you show me examples?
05:16:05  <Rhamphoryncus> Sure, gimme a minute
05:16:42  <Nat_aS> I like this type of station, because it looks natural, is relatively compact, and does not involve complex signaling.
05:16:50  <Nat_aS> and can scale well
05:17:16  <Nat_aS> but it has bottlenecks, and feeding two lines into a big station all at once might create bottlenecks with trains entering and exiting
05:17:58  <Rhamphoryncus> and
05:18:40  <Nat_aS> I don't like those designs
05:18:43  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, it scales for waiting trains but not really overall throughput
05:19:26  <Nat_aS> I'm thinking of making that station really wide (10 platforms) and then making two sets of satilite stations, one going N and the other going E
05:20:01  <Nat_aS> hopefully trains will only visit there satilite stations and never bother ones going on the other route, UNLESS they need to go to the main station for overflow
05:21:57  <Rhamphoryncus> The only way split/merge multiple tracks is with bridges/tunnels, otherwise you constrain your throughput to a single track
05:24:56  <Nat_aS> I'm sure I could make a nice T intersection, but the problem is doing it without running out of room
05:25:03  <Nat_aS> I also want to expand that station
05:25:24  <Rhamphoryncus> Your existing stations rely on trains rarely crossing to a different track.  If they did you'd have huge backlogs
05:27:22  <Rhamphoryncus> So yeah, having what is essentially two stations might work, but it'd be fragile
05:28:13  <Rhamphoryncus> Spreading out the station would probably fix your space problem
05:28:50  <Rhamphoryncus> hmm, just had a thought..
05:37:50  <Rhamphoryncus>
05:38:51  <Rhamphoryncus> That is like having two satellites as you suggest
05:39:33  <Rhamphoryncus> I expect a problem though: trains won't be balanced
05:41:16  <Rhamphoryncus> The prefer platforms that are closer, which means they'll often block each other
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05:42:43  <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_aS: still there?
05:43:07  <Nat_aS> yes
05:43:53  <Nat_aS> this abomination is what I just made
05:44:11  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
05:44:35  <Nat_aS> most of the time trains will only visit the satellite stations, and it's like having two stations
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05:44:43  <Nat_aS> but if it overflows, they go into the main station
05:44:50  <Rhamphoryncus> Ah, didn't see the town in the previous screenshot
05:45:43  <Nat_aS> it's one of the larger towns on this map
05:46:26  <Nat_aS> is that short gap between the satilite station and the sawmill station dangerous?
05:46:31  <Nat_aS> might trains get caught there?
05:46:35  <Nat_aS> and clog shit up?
05:46:49  <Nat_aS> oh, I forgot to add cross tracks, pretend they are there
05:47:11  <Rhamphoryncus> Isn't that a factory?
05:47:27  <Nat_aS> and signals
05:47:28  <Nat_aS> yes
05:47:41  <Nat_aS> but off the southeast corner is a sawmill station
05:47:46  <Nat_aS> where wood comes from
05:47:54  <Rhamphoryncus> ahh
05:48:06  <Nat_aS> (in jungle maps sawmills make wood instead of consuming it)
05:48:36  <Rhamphoryncus> Actually, they could clog going to/from the northeast satellite
05:48:47  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, I've played them before
05:49:01  <Nat_aS> yeah I have never attemtped anything like that angled setup
05:49:12  <Nat_aS> In fact, I should probably have the corner happen after the satilite
05:49:14  <Nat_aS> :V
05:49:30  <Rhamphoryncus> Or remove the intermediate signals
05:49:43  <Rhamphoryncus> Basically, assume that anywhere a train can wait it will wait
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05:56:59  <Nat_aS>
05:57:01  <Nat_aS> here we go
05:57:49  * Rhamphoryncus nods
06:01:31  <Nat_aS> This... is an abomination
06:01:38  <Nat_aS> I have never made a station this large before
06:02:10  <Nat_aS> I have made longer though.
06:02:14  <Nat_aS> just not this wide.
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06:20:27  <andythenorth> ho
06:20:46  <andythenorth> can I specift a directory, or some sort of manifest file as a target for make?
06:21:10  <andythenorth> then it's coincidental that the scripts to build those also build 3,000 pngs?
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06:26:44  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: that's what I was working at.  The main thing I found is %.c and %.o
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06:29:35  <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, that's definitely not right.  I hope I didn't corrupt FIRS by turning off industry closure and setting always 100% station rating after starting the game
06:30:23  <Rhamphoryncus> My production isn't scaling to the production level.. and I just found a with 65534 crates (65535 max)
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06:35:26  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: station rating won't corrupt FIRS, unless I'm wrong
06:35:44  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, I assumed it'd be harmless when I did it
06:35:49  <andythenorth> it should be
06:36:17  <andythenorth> industry production is almost decoupled from stations, the only coupling is the amount distributed to stations
06:36:18  <Rhamphoryncus> And likewise on the assumption that it's still harmless I'm looking into what could give bad values
06:36:39  <andythenorth> industry closure should be harmless, but I'd have to read code to be sure
06:36:55  <andythenorth> and it's too early for that, and I lack tea
06:37:15  <Rhamphoryncus> It's 20 to midnight.  Definitely too early ;)
06:37:50  <Rhamphoryncus> var_supply_storage is at -2
06:38:42  <Rhamphoryncus> or alternatively 65534.  Max storage is only corrupted when displayed, as derived from var_supply_storage, so it's not involved
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06:40:55  <Rhamphoryncus> 				max(LOAD_PERM(var_supply_storage) - LOAD_PERM(var_supply_requirement), 0),  // does this work in NML?
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06:51:58  <Rhamphoryncus> Found the bug.  The supply ratio is calculated before subtracting the monthly consumption, but not acted upon until after.
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06:56:35  <Rhamphoryncus> So if it needs 6/month to maintain and it needs 18 to increase then it can use 6+18=24, putting it into the negative.  Dunno why I didn't experience it before.
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07:13:55  <Rhamphoryncus> The monthly production seems fine.  Apparently I missed how low the per-month production is compared to base industries, so I was surprised they're not rising into the 2k/month range
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07:56:09  <andythenorth> oh
07:56:12  * andythenorth broke his repo
08:00:06  <andythenorth> case folding collisions
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08:14:38  <andythenorth> oh ffs
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08:15:29  <andythenorth> why make a vcs that happily destroys your repo on non-case-sensitive filesystems, with no warnings
08:15:42  <andythenorth> non-case-sensitive is hardly uncommon
08:16:18  * andythenorth is fed up of the illusory nature of mercurial
08:16:59  * andythenorth has lost the BANDIT repo
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08:18:18  <planetmaker> hu?
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08:18:38  <planetmaker> moin
08:18:44  <andythenorth> maybe I can fix it after some tea
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08:18:50  <planetmaker> andythenorth: what did you do?
08:18:52  <andythenorth> tea reduces grumpiness and confusion
08:19:07  <andythenorth> changed the case on some file names, some time ago
08:19:39  <planetmaker> and then...?
08:20:05  <andythenorth> all appeared fine
08:20:17  <andythenorth> but if I try hg up <prevrev>
08:20:20  <andythenorth> case collissions
08:20:34  <andythenorth> I've followed the instructions for fixing it, but now have multiple heads, and no fix
08:20:52  <planetmaker> that sounds not like destroyed
08:21:24  <planetmaker> and what does a case collision look like?
08:21:37  <planetmaker> (exact message)
08:24:24  <planetmaker> a random guess on my part is: you used like "hg up <rev>", got a case collision somewhere, ignored it. And the commited while hg didn't actually update due to the case collision as it does not want to overwrite files unless forced
08:24:27  <planetmaker> can that be?
08:25:30  <andythenorth> not quite
08:25:49  <andythenorth> you can't "hg up <rev>" if there are case collisions, it simply aborts
08:26:03  <planetmaker> yep
08:26:42  <planetmaker> if you then hg up -C it's dangerous for uncommited changes
08:26:47  <andythenorth> I *did* notice that hg didn't seem to care when I changed the filenames
08:27:00  <andythenorth> which I thought was odd, I expected to have a changeset from them
08:27:20  <planetmaker> how did you change the case of filenames?
08:27:43  <andythenorth> rothrock_r504.psd became rothrock_R504.psd - for consistency with other files
08:28:17  <andythenorth> the fix appears to be
08:28:31  <andythenorth> which I've tried, to no success so far
08:28:53  <andythenorth> I also have two unwanted extra heads in my local repo
08:29:08  <andythenorth> and the project can no longer be cloned, which is why I think I've lost this repo :(
08:29:19  <andythenorth> I might have to manually copy all files into a new repo, and start from r0
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08:31:13  <andythenorth> (fresh clone from devzone can't update to tip due to case-collisions)
08:31:54  <planetmaker> let's see
08:33:03  <andythenorth> indeed, there must be a fix without drama ;)
08:33:12  <planetmaker> devzone has only one head
08:33:22  <andythenorth> I didn't push any new ones :)
08:33:33  <andythenorth> don't want to make it worse with a broken fix
08:33:44  <planetmaker> what's your changes relative to there?
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08:34:18  <andythenorth> wrt tip in my repo and tip remote?
08:34:26  <planetmaker> your repo wrt devzone
08:34:53  <andythenorth> is there a quick way to diff between the two?
08:34:57  <andythenorth> or I can list manually
08:35:15  <planetmaker> hg outgoing might tell
08:35:45  <andythenorth>
08:35:57  <andythenorth> I have two changesets, one to remove the .psd files and one the .png
08:36:13  <andythenorth> I should have done both in same operation, but I didn't know about the .png
08:36:54  <andythenorth> hmm
08:37:05  <andythenorth> "One way to repair such a repository is to check it out on a case-sensitive Unix system, remove the problematic file, and commit it again."
08:38:02  <planetmaker> ok, the creation of heads is you commiting two different changesets based on the same revision. That primarily has nothing to do with cases, I'd say. Or?
08:38:21  <andythenorth> +1
08:38:35  <andythenorth> yes, the heads are a consequence of the fix, not a cause
08:38:50  <planetmaker> do you have outstanding changes?
08:39:11  <andythenorth> in short yes
08:39:22  <andythenorth> but they could be sorted out manually
08:39:23  <planetmaker> in short?
08:39:32  <planetmaker> well, save them to a diff
08:39:43  <andythenorth> they aren't outstanding for tip, but they are for whatever rev I'm currently on
08:39:50  <planetmaker> or commit them
08:40:45  <planetmaker> don't worry about creating yet another head ;-) We can merge later
08:40:51  <andythenorth> k
08:42:10  <planetmaker> can you paste the output of "hg glog -l10" ?
08:42:28  <andythenorth> sure
08:42:31  * andythenorth enables glog
08:43:04  <planetmaker> oh, that's an extension? :-)
08:43:27  <planetmaker> no
08:43:45  <planetmaker> not here at least
08:43:51  <andythenorth> "<command> | open -f"  is very handy on os x
08:44:02  <andythenorth>
08:45:17  <planetmaker> and you're now at r387, right?
08:45:37  <andythenorth> yup
08:45:55  <planetmaker> then let's try to successively merge heads
08:46:06  <planetmaker> hg merge -r383
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08:47:05  <andythenorth> pdq2s-macbook-3:pixel_generator andy$ hg merge -r383
08:47:05  <andythenorth> abort: case-folding collision between src/graphics/rothrock_r504.png and src/graphics/rothrock_R504.png
08:47:30  <planetmaker> and the same when you merge -r382 ?
08:47:40  <andythenorth> no
08:47:47  <andythenorth> abort: case-folding collision between graphics_sources/rothrock_r504.psd and graphics_sources/rothrock_R504.psd
08:47:47  <planetmaker> then let's do that first :-)
08:47:50  <planetmaker> oh
08:47:58  <andythenorth> this is why I was grumpy :)
08:48:05  <andythenorth> the fix I've followed isn't a fix :)
08:48:11  <andythenorth> it seems circular
08:48:20  <andythenorth> I had a vision of doing it n times, spawning ever-more heads :P
08:48:28  <planetmaker> :-D
08:48:39  <planetmaker> and you FS is not case sensitive, right?
08:48:43  <andythenorth> nope
08:48:46  <andythenorth> "One way to repair such a repository is to check it out on a case-sensitive Unix system, remove the problematic file, and commit it again"
08:49:12  <andythenorth> so I could make a disk image
08:49:24  <planetmaker> disk image?
08:49:33  <andythenorth> with disk utility
08:49:47  <andythenorth> make a case-sensitive volume, mount it, cp there, try to fix
08:49:50  <planetmaker> well, I could simply try to fix it...
08:50:06  <planetmaker> I have no volumes which are not case sensitive
08:50:12  <andythenorth> :)
08:50:15  <planetmaker> which btw, prevented me to install photoshop
08:50:21  <andythenorth> :o
08:50:35  <andythenorth> so can you try to strip the files?  I don't want to push my multiple heads
08:51:03  <andythenorth> I don't mind if you simply delete both upper and lower case versions, I can put them back manually
08:52:00  <planetmaker> yes, I shall try. I only have r382
08:52:19  <planetmaker> src/graphics/rothrock_R504.png ?
08:52:23  <planetmaker> any other?
08:52:34  <andythenorth> the equivalent psd in graphics_sources
08:52:47  <andythenorth> I don't know of others, but there may be some, I didn't find a way to check yet
08:53:15  <planetmaker> ah. There's now both files, upper and lower case
08:53:20  <planetmaker> which version do you want to keep?
08:53:34  <andythenorth> upper please
08:53:36  <planetmaker> ok
08:53:37  <andythenorth> ah
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08:53:42  <andythenorth> devzone sees both too
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08:54:21  <planetmaker> any other files with the same problem?
08:54:28  <andythenorth> ok, manual check on devzone, I don't see any
08:54:34  <planetmaker> ok, me neither
08:54:35  <andythenorth> just the psd and png for r504
08:56:19  * planetmaker authorizes himself for commit access :-P
08:56:27  <andythenorth> :)
08:56:36  <planetmaker> done
08:56:55  <andythenorth> \o/
08:57:04  <andythenorth> I can discard local heads now?
08:57:20  <planetmaker> make it easy for you and a backup copy:
08:57:27  <planetmaker> cp -r bandit old.bandit
08:57:35  <planetmaker> or rather mv bandit old.bandit
08:57:38  <planetmaker> and then clone devzone
08:57:39  <andythenorth> k
08:57:55  <planetmaker> only delete the old repo when you're sure you have everything
08:57:59  <andythenorth> yup, works
08:58:17  <planetmaker> after all you could also still export all your changes or even pull from your old repo
08:58:47  <andythenorth> oh how interesting
08:58:52  <andythenorth> I have new clone
08:58:58  <andythenorth> but still can't up 378
08:59:07  <andythenorth> but I can now up tip
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08:59:42  <andythenorth> planetmaker: can you up 378?
08:59:44  <planetmaker> yes, I guessed so
08:59:53  <planetmaker> sure
09:00:42  <planetmaker> rothrock_R504.png and rothrock_r504.png in r378
09:00:46  <andythenorth> yup
09:00:56  <andythenorth> and the mac won't allow that on non-case-sensitive FS
09:01:09  <planetmaker> yup
09:01:15  <andythenorth> so the fix is to rm from that rev?
09:01:25  <andythenorth> as per
09:01:45  <Rhamphoryncus> Hmm.  20 km/h bus.  80 km/h train.  This sounds like a recipe for Fun.
09:01:55  <andythenorth> or actually from the rev where I introduced the issue, which I don't know yet
09:02:24  <planetmaker> you could try that as described there, yes
09:02:47  <andythenorth> r268 I think
09:02:51  <planetmaker> but that would for you after a commit not change r378, but create a new revision, r384 which has r378 as parent
09:05:13  <andythenorth> also I just tried it, and it doesn't solve the issue
09:06:29  <planetmaker> what exactly are you trying now?
09:07:39  <andythenorth> following instructions exactly as per link above, using r268 and removing all r504 and R504 files
09:07:42  <andythenorth> doesn't work though
09:08:35  <planetmaker> ok, let me ask: why do you now want a revision which has this collision?
09:09:49  <andythenorth> I'm trying to diagnose a bug which I think I introduced in r378, but can't verify
09:10:13  <andythenorth> [so want to up 378 and build]
09:10:26  <planetmaker> did you switch file systems since then?
09:10:35  <andythenorth> nope
09:11:34  <planetmaker> should I commit a head based on r378 which removest he offending files?
09:11:40  <andythenorth> please
09:11:43  <andythenorth> sorry
09:12:21  <planetmaker> there
09:13:25  <andythenorth> he
09:13:51  <andythenorth> clean clone, case-folding issues for up tip, up 384, up 378
09:13:59  <andythenorth> ok
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09:14:07  <planetmaker> hm?
09:14:09  <andythenorth> so maybe it's time to make a case-sensitive disk image
09:14:24  <andythenorth> there's a lesson in this somewhere, not sure what yet :P
09:14:31  <planetmaker> well, 378 will not work for you on non-case sensitive
09:14:36  <andythenorth> no
09:14:48  <planetmaker> 384 should. Unless there's more files than the one png
09:17:01  <planetmaker> andythenorth: what hg version do you use?
09:17:38  <andythenorth> 1.9
09:17:51  <andythenorth> I tried upgrading it earlier, but macports refuses to update the ports tree :P
09:18:03  <planetmaker> I wanna see what the hg say to this
09:18:08  <planetmaker> *hg guys
09:18:09  <andythenorth> it was a frustrating morning ;)
09:18:25  <planetmaker> #mercurial on freenode, if you care
09:19:11  <andythenorth> I should do later
09:19:28  <andythenorth> I have to stop neglecting the kids now :o
09:19:53  <andythenorth> ho my ports tree update succeeded
09:19:54  <planetmaker> :-)
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09:22:30  <SpComb> ya, case-sensitivity can be hard on VCS's
09:24:22  <SpComb> I had a problem where I renamed some files and only changed their case, and hg didn't notice - then when I did a separate build checkout, it created a broken build (wrong filename case)
09:24:47  <SpComb> then I sillyly fixed that `hg mv ...` in the build repo, and trying to merge that case-change commit back into the master repo was... hard
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09:30:12  <andythenorth> SpComb: similar issue to mine :|
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10:28:32  <Ammler> planetmaker: the histroy of mercurial is not case sensitive, they use _ for case
10:28:52  <Ammler> but of course, the workcopy is
10:29:15  <Ammler> but you could fix it and then andy can up to a fixed version
10:34:08  <planetmaker> we figured, yes
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10:47:57  <Rhamphoryncus> So.. on a lark I've discovered that the pathfinder does, in fact, care about track speed of nutrack.. which means you can have a dual mainline with both highspeed and lowspeed and the highspeed trains do prefer the highspeed land.  The lowspeed lanes can then be pushed using a PF penalty (reversed path signal)
10:48:22  <Rhamphoryncus> Not sure if it really improves network efficiency though, or if it's just a side effect of having a dual mainline
10:50:46  <Rhamphoryncus> Anybody played with that before?
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10:57:48  <Ammler> planetmaker: and what would you like to ask #mercurial ?
10:58:55  <Ammler> ah, you are there too :-P
10:59:43  <planetmaker> :-)
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13:13:20  <Eddi|zuHause> nmlc: "src/../src/bav/18.gnml", line 115: All parts of the ternary operator (?:) must be integers. <-- is that an nml bug?
13:15:28  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- the essence of the offending code
13:15:44  <Eddi|zuHause> the property line is alright, the callback line is not
13:16:46  <Rhamphoryncus> Try replacing 8 with 8.0
13:16:58  <Rhamphoryncus> Wait, misread >.>
13:17:02  <Eddi|zuHause> how should that help anything?
13:17:23  * Rhamphoryncus makes up something about being tired.  Which he should be, but isn't.
13:17:58  <Eddi|zuHause> (besides... checking for vehicle_is_stopped is nonsense... running costs are 0 then anyway)#
13:19:00  <Rhamphoryncus> does that include stopped at a signal?
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13:19:08  <Eddi|zuHause> no
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13:19:24  <Eddi|zuHause> only when player clicks the stop button
13:19:35  <Rhamphoryncus> Then why is being stopped at a depot's implicit signals treated specially?  (vehicle_is_in_depot)
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13:20:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not the author of this feature... that's a separate discussion :p
13:20:15  <Rhamphoryncus> oh okay
13:22:43  <Eddi|zuHause> bÀh... devzone is so useless when javascript is disabled...
13:23:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i can't change the filter on the ticket list without javascript... wtf?
13:23:49  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: you don't have javascript?
13:23:57  <Ammler> please use another browser
13:24:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i disabled javascript.
13:24:19  <Eddi|zuHause> makes for way smoother general browsing experience...
13:24:20  <Ammler> so what is the issue?
13:24:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: the issue is that something as simple as an "apply" button shouldn't need javascript
13:24:44  <Ammler> maybe you can maek exceptions
13:27:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i can also eat a ton of caviar. doesn't mean i want to.
13:28:10  <Ammler> not sure, you can :-P
13:28:23  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on the timeframe :p
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13:33:47  <Belugas> hello
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14:07:01  <NGC3982> evening, duders.
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14:16:26  <andythenorth> planetmaker: BANDIT is fine on a case sensitive disk image P
14:16:33  <andythenorth> bah :)
14:17:45  <planetmaker> yes, of course
14:18:13  <planetmaker> that's why I had no trouble creating the revs I committed earlier today ;-)
14:18:38  <planetmaker> But I got so far no answer how to avoid your trouble on case insensitive FS
14:19:12  <andythenorth> "just don't do the things that caused this issue" :P
14:20:12  <andythenorth> also, /me concludes that captain rand may be an idiot
14:20:15  <planetmaker> well, yes. But that's a good advise but no good method to prevent the mishap
14:20:27  <planetmaker> whom?
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14:22:05  <andythenorth> in that silly v2.0 thread.  You upset him I think :)
14:22:21  <andythenorth> hmm.  statements like this: "If we would like TT to last another 20 years and bring in new players and contributors, the two halves need to become whole"
14:22:42  <planetmaker> oh. Well, who cares
14:22:45  <andythenorth> always this fricking obsession with new players.
14:23:12  <planetmaker> well, new players are important. But you won't gain them by his proposed convergence.
14:23:14  <andythenorth> yeah, because the reason people are playing WoW is because they checked out TTDP and OTTD and are cross that there are features different between them
14:23:22  * andythenorth should have some tea
14:23:25  <andythenorth> some days are grump days
14:23:28  <planetmaker> Rather by deviating more and embracing better (G)UI and ease of use
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14:23:49  <planetmaker> not by adding custom bridge heads and programmable or restrictive signals
14:24:03  <Pikka> boo, planetmaker, boo
14:24:10  <planetmaker> :-)
14:24:34  <andythenorth> oh it's pikka-bobble :)
14:24:38  <planetmaker> Pikka, it's not like I'm against those features. But... I doubt they are crucial for a person to like the game :-)
14:24:39  <andythenorth> he always cheers me up
14:24:45  <planetmaker> or any significant amount of people
14:25:00  <Pikka> true!
14:25:07  <planetmaker> indeed I think at least custom bridgeheads will be quite nice.
14:25:27  <planetmaker> Pikka, reference was this funny openttd v2.0 thread
14:25:35  <andythenorth> silly thread
14:25:43  <andythenorth> it should be in the suggestions forum, where I mostly don't go :P
14:25:51  <andythenorth> suggestions forum is just /dev/null right?
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14:26:12  <zxbiohazardzx> y hello thar :P
14:26:25  <planetmaker> nah, not exactly, andythenorth . But you can go wild there w/o penalty ;-)
14:26:29  <Pikka> well the lack of custom bridgeheads is keeping SAC out of OpenTTD, so that's one argument against implementing it I suppose.
14:26:37  * Pikka goes to make tea
14:26:48  * planetmaker offers Pikka some freshly brewed tea
14:26:58  <zxbiohazardzx> lol Pikka
14:27:01  <andythenorth> Pikka: tea for two?
14:27:03  <Ammler> what about good old coffee?
14:27:04  * andythenorth needs tea
14:27:10  * zxbiohazardzx needs coffe
14:27:12  * andythenorth is staring into a nappy
14:27:16  <zxbiohazardzx> e fail more
14:28:17  <Ammler> planetmaker: you have a ppc mac?
14:28:27  <zxbiohazardzx> anyway i had a question on the scenario-creator's rock tile placement feature
14:28:35  <zxbiohazardzx> where is that in the sourcecode?
14:28:40  <zxbiohazardzx> i assumed src/widgets
14:29:33  <zxbiohazardzx> but that mainly has .h files
14:29:55  <planetmaker> Ammler, no
14:30:13  <zxbiohazardzx> aka it only defines teh Enums in terraform_widget.h
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14:30:56  <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx, what makes you believe that rocks are placed anywhere in the GUI functions?
14:31:02  <planetmaker> (aka widgets)
14:31:17  <Pikka> I got halfway through making coffee before I remembered I wanted tea :)  so I am having coffee after all.
14:31:19  <planetmaker> I'd try like terragen* or map_gen or similar
14:31:22  <zxbiohazardzx> as far as i recall it was part of the landscape toolbar in the scenario generation?
14:31:32  <zxbiohazardzx> well i didnt expect the placement to be there
14:31:36  <planetmaker> toolbar != feature itself
14:31:42  <zxbiohazardzx> but i expected some sort of hint where to look for the feature
14:31:45  <zxbiohazardzx> :P
14:33:07  <planetmaker> consider looking at map_* and terraform*
14:33:43  <planetmaker> maybe also genworld*
14:33:51  <zxbiohazardzx> ok thx
14:34:40  <zxbiohazardzx> was trying to see if we can manually place buildings as well, similar to rock placement,(real buildings not newobject fake ones)
14:35:35  <planetmaker> for the SE that might be nice
14:35:51  <zxbiohazardzx> yeah
14:35:53  <planetmaker> iirc some patch to that extend existed somewhen somewhere
14:36:10  <planetmaker> you might want a similar GUI like the station or new object placement offers
14:36:29  <zxbiohazardzx> that would even be better then my idea
14:36:35  <zxbiohazardzx> id just make it go random XD
14:36:54  <zxbiohazardzx> being able to actually pick a building might really offer some nice features in the SE
14:36:58  <planetmaker> as you need a way to select the house (with 'random' being an option)
14:37:07  <zxbiohazardzx> making a "downtown" area and "suburbs" etc
14:37:15  <zxbiohazardzx> yeah sounds fair enough
14:37:34  <zxbiohazardzx> ill check if i can find that patch, it might get me started a bit more :P
14:37:40  <planetmaker> but beware of pitfalls. Houses may decide to not be buildable everywhere :-)
14:38:18  <zxbiohazardzx> maybe first run the check and only build it if allowed regardless of why it cannot be build (slopes etc i )
14:38:22  <zxbiohazardzx> but lets start with the basics
14:38:26  <andythenorth> hmm
14:38:30  <zxbiohazardzx> then thik of fancy other stuff :P
14:38:48  <zxbiohazardzx> think* omg whats wrong with my hands today
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14:43:38  <zxbiohazardzx> hate searching for old patches, specially if you dont know a name or forumpart, sofar on page 6 or 7 without it :P
14:44:01  <zxbiohazardzx>
14:44:06  <zxbiohazardzx> and the second you say it, you find it
14:44:07  <zxbiohazardzx> ofc
14:48:43  <zxbiohazardzx> ill first try to just update patch to a more recent version, see how that works out :P
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14:51:30  <zxbiohazardzx> damn SVN errors :S
14:51:38  <zxbiohazardzx> Compression of svndiff data failed
14:51:58  <zxbiohazardzx> 62.07MBytes transferred 1 min 45 seconds, the operation failed
14:52:14  <zxbiohazardzx> but /care i got the stuff in :P
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15:11:07  <zxbiohazardzx> in window_type.h
15:11:31  <zxbiohazardzx> i think you changed the WC_BUILD_OBJECT etc lines to add comments?
15:14:07  <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx, for developing patches a distributed VCS like hg or git is easier to use
15:16:01  <Ammler> why does openttd check for timidity?
15:16:24  <Ammler> (the configure)
15:16:33  <planetmaker> it's a possible sound driver
15:16:45  <planetmaker> thus it can link against libtimidity
15:17:40  <planetmaker> configure checks for each library it can link against (on the build platform)
15:18:47  <Ammler> hmm, maybe I should check if music works then
15:19:11  <Ammler> or is that completely independent from openmsx, where timidity is required
15:19:40  <planetmaker> yes
15:19:54  <planetmaker> might be needed for any sound. thus music or sound
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15:20:28  <Ammler> but if openttd doesn't find it on building, openmsx will still work?
15:21:25  <planetmaker> depends whether it has another sound device. But iirc sound and music can in principle also play on the null device
15:21:36  <planetmaker> the enjoyment factor might be low, though
15:22:08  <Ammler> timidity is there, just not while building openttd
15:22:19  <Ammler> that is why I wondered about that
15:22:42  <planetmaker> then openttd will not link against it. Of course it would need its devel libs in order to do so
15:22:58  <planetmaker> like with every lib: you need it at build time. Or it will never be used
15:23:31  <planetmaker> (or rather you need it's development headers)
15:23:47  <Ammler> since when is that the case?
15:23:52  <planetmaker> ever
15:23:57  <Ammler> he :-)
15:24:06  <Ammler> so suse openmsx never worked :-P
15:24:27  <planetmaker> it might use other sound devices
15:24:44  <planetmaker> did you never check the builds you put into suse?
15:24:46  <Ammler> I speak about music... openMsx
15:25:39  <Ammler> music works just fine
15:25:53  <Ammler> fail alarm, that configure output was confusing
15:26:18  <planetmaker> how do openttd's sound driver and openmsx relate at all?
15:26:19  <Ammler> so openttd does not need timidity on building to have openmsx working
15:26:22  <zxbiohazardzx> Planetmaker yeah i know hg/git and i use that for the wow devment
15:26:24  <zxbiohazardzx> but for now svn works
15:26:34  <zxbiohazardzx> just wondering about that change in window_type.h
15:26:53  <zxbiohazardzx> the old patch just added a line WC_BUILD_HOUSE,
15:27:22  <zxbiohazardzx> between WC_BUILD_OBJECT and WC_INVALID = 0xFFFF
15:27:23  <Ammler> btw. how do you control music on the openttd main menu?
15:27:36  <zxbiohazardzx> but the current one has alot more comments there
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15:28:39  <planetmaker> Ammler, not.
15:28:51  <planetmaker> it's imho a missing UI thing
15:29:20  <Ammler> could be added to the GameOptions beside the menu where you chose the music set
15:29:22  <zxbiohazardzx> also planetmaker did nobody ever considered adding CMake to the project (i know they did that @ TrinityCore to make cross platform compilation less of a pain
15:29:32  <zxbiohazardzx> sidetracked again :p
15:31:42  <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx, obviously at least you did
15:31:55  <Ammler>  esound-daemon gstreamer-0_10-plugin-esd libao-plugin4-esd libaudiofile0 libesd0 openmotif-libs openttd-openmsx timidity <-- a lot additional package come with openmsx :-)
15:32:37  <zxbiohazardzx> well adding it is a pain as my coding skills are very much limited
15:32:58  <zxbiohazardzx> now the questions i had on the code so i can continue bumping that older patch to head
15:33:03  <zxbiohazardzx> in window_type.h
15:33:30  <zxbiohazardzx> old patch just added the WC_BUILD_HOUSE
15:33:30  <zxbiohazardzx>
15:33:32  <zxbiohazardzx>  	WC_BUILD_OBJECT,
15:33:32  <zxbiohazardzx> +	WC_BUILD_HOUSE,
15:33:32  <zxbiohazardzx>  	WC_INVALID = 0xFFFF
15:33:41  <zxbiohazardzx> but new code has way more comments there
15:34:30  <zxbiohazardzx> and alot more stuff in between WC_BUILD_OBJECT and WC_INVALID that i assume is needed for all kinds of stuff
15:34:54  <zxbiohazardzx> mostly wondering what comment to stick on top of it, i assume WindowFunction: %Window numbers:
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15:35:23  <zxbiohazardzx> then - 0  = #NameWidgets?
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15:36:29  <zxbiohazardzx> and teraform_gui.cpp similar question, as that got revamed
15:36:44  <zxbiohazardzx> i assume ETTS -> WID style there refering to the widget
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15:58:12  <planetmaker> <-- simply answering with "please no double postings" might be rude, but I'm quite tempted
16:02:10  <andythenorth> I'd start by asking his age
16:02:24  <andythenorth> well I wouldn't, because I'm a bad person to get into forum wars :P
16:02:53  <andythenorth> I'd be surprised if he was >15
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16:05:31  <Alberth> moin
16:06:53  <andythenorth> Alberth: :)
16:07:13  <andythenorth> you have finished your week, done honest work, earnt honest money? :)
16:10:41  *** Strid [] has joined #openttd
16:10:43  <Pikka> bongiorno Alberth
16:12:06  <Eddi|zuHause> boingo boingo?
16:12:16  <Pikka> says you, buddy
16:12:36  <planetmaker> bunga bunga
16:12:58  <supermop> am i invited to that?
16:16:50  <Alberth> andythenorth: sort of, but 'honest' is somewhat tricky if you don't really like what you are doing :p
16:16:52  *** Prof_Frink [] has joined #openttd
16:17:09  <planetmaker> :-( @ Alberth you don't?
16:17:25  <Alberth> writing Eclipse extensions is not much fun
16:17:33  <andythenorth> at least you keep the Eurozone productive :P
16:17:57  * andythenorth got paid recently, so today has helped the economies of France, Denmark, and China
16:18:03  <andythenorth> mostly Denmark :P
16:18:26  <supermop> yes
16:18:28  <Alberth> :)
16:18:39  <supermop> danish petrochemical solids
16:18:43  <andythenorth> what comes from Denmark?  Plastic bricks :P
16:19:01  <supermop> my favorite commodity
16:20:32  <andythenorth> hmm
16:20:40  * andythenorth ponders what to code next
16:21:04  <Pikka> what are the options?
16:21:24  <andythenorth> (1) cleanup my python to not be technically invalid
16:21:33  * Pikka codes Brush Class 92s
16:21:34  <andythenorth> (2) fix some very boring positions of magic pixels
16:21:54  <Pikka> not being technically invalid is always good.
16:21:55  <andythenorth> (3) figure out how to actually configure and run pixa
16:21:57  *** ProfFrink [] has joined #openttd
16:22:01  * andythenorth likes 3
16:22:08  <Pikka> hmm
16:22:18  *** bolli [~bolli@] has joined #openttd
16:22:32  <bolli> hi
16:22:47  <bolli> i have a question for the linuxy people out there... :P
16:23:07  <bolli> can i control a background process without bringing it to the foreground?
16:23:23  <Ammler> kill
16:23:48  <planetmaker> if you refer to openttd and running it as a server: use screen and run it inside that
16:23:58  <bolli> ok...
16:24:30  <Alberth> bolli: 'kill' is more versatile than its name suggests :)
16:24:58  * planetmaker mostly uses -9 as option :-P
16:25:13  <bolli> ahh
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16:25:15  <bolli> thanks :)
16:25:30  <Ammler> planetmaker: you really should upgrade your system :-P
16:25:41  <planetmaker> ?
16:25:41  <andythenorth> -9 ftw
16:25:45  * Alberth tries to avoid -9 very much :)
16:25:47  <bolli> so what would -9 d? :P
16:25:50  <bolli> *do
16:26:00  * andythenorth wonders if sudo kill -9 * works
16:26:00  <Ammler> if you need -9 that often, something is very broken
16:26:09  <andythenorth> you need -9 that often ;)
16:26:14  <planetmaker> terminate process without any questions asked or notifications given
16:26:15  <andythenorth> at least once a month or so
16:26:25  <planetmaker> Ammler, who says that I need it?
16:26:31  <Ammler> :-)
16:26:33  <Alberth> planetmaker: and without giving it the chance to cleanup in any way
16:26:38  <planetmaker> Alberth, I know
16:26:46  <andythenorth> it doesn't deserve a chance imho
16:26:53  <andythenorth> bad processes should be punished
16:27:18  <Alberth> better not even start bad processes :)
16:27:22  <planetmaker> ^^
16:27:53  * andythenorth could tell stories about printjobmgr using 200% of CPU while trying to print to a printer 5 miles away
16:28:04  <andythenorth> but instead....pixel generator?
16:28:07  *** TWerkhoven [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:28:27  <Ammler> no andythenorth, tell the story, don't waste time with pixels
16:28:28  *** TWerkhoven [] has joined #openttd
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16:31:00  <Ammler> Alberth: wanna update our hook to check for case sensitive issues?
16:31:07  <Alberth> Ammler: but a picture is worth a thousand words :)
16:31:51  <Alberth> Ammler: in what way 'case sensitive issues' ?
16:32:36  <Ammler> mercurial is able to handle abc.nml and ABC.nml in same dir
16:32:49  <supermop> planetmaker: better to buy a new lens with VR first, or a new body with better features?
16:33:00  <Alberth> Ammler: it should :)
16:33:07  <Ammler> but if you have a case insensitive fs, you won't be able to update to that rev
16:33:18  *** _maddy [] has joined #openttd
16:33:26  <_maddy> hi folks, anyone up for a multiplayer game?
16:33:48  <supermop> assuming i have under 1000 usd to upgrade my slr so will have to do it piecemeal
16:33:54  <planetmaker> supermop, in case of doubt invest in lenses
16:34:11  <Ammler> _maddy: join a existing server maybe?
16:34:13  <Alberth> Ammler: ok, I can have a look. I have completely forgotten how it works though, so no idea if it can be done
16:34:25  <_maddy> Ammler: I'm looking for a coop game
16:34:26  <planetmaker> features on a camera body don't matter, if the lenses are bad.
16:34:48  <planetmaker> _maddy, why don't you then join one of our coop servers?
16:34:49  <Ammler> Alberth: just in case the current script running on our server:
16:35:32  <supermop> my lenses are ok now
16:35:34  <planetmaker> supermop, what you might consider though, is to avoid the lenses which won't fit a full-frame camera
16:35:58  <supermop> just the nikkors that came with it in 2005
16:35:59  <planetmaker> one might want to upgrade to one later, maybe
16:36:03  <supermop> yeah
16:36:14  <supermop> but fx bodies are very expensive
16:36:30  <_maddy> planetmaker: what coop servers? I only know of openttdcoop
16:36:32  <Alberth> Ammler: ok, thanks.  Is that all my code? The final two functions are not documented
16:36:32  <supermop> and fx lenses much more expensive than dx equivalents
16:36:37  <planetmaker> _maddy, so do I ;-)
16:36:46  <Ammler> Alberth: I think so
16:36:54  <supermop> but could use fx lenses on my 35mm
16:37:02  <Ammler> the only thing I might have changed are config
16:37:23  <planetmaker> supermop, I'm not too familiar with nikon's naming scheme. dx=? fx=?
16:37:30  <Alberth> hmm, I was in a hurry perhaps, or it was clear enough at the time :)
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16:39:04  <supermop> fx is a digital sensor roughly the same physical size as a fram of 35 mm film
16:40:00  <supermop> dx is roughly the size of a frame of aps film but is pretty standard throughout digital camera bodies
16:40:11  <planetmaker> ok. So it's nikon's way to tell sensor size
16:40:20  <supermop> the fx cameras are for the 'professional' market
16:40:40  <supermop> the mounting ring and AF etc are all the same
16:40:55  <planetmaker> I'm kinda dreaming currently to buy an EOS 5 Mk III ;-)
16:41:05  <supermop> so any nikor lense since the old nikon F will fit on any nikon body
16:41:14  <supermop> and work reasonable well
16:41:37  <supermop> (i use my old circa 1978 lenses on my d50 at times)
16:41:38  <planetmaker> friends of mine are very content with Nikon's 300 whatever
16:42:02  <supermop> yeah, that is a dx one, as is my d50
16:42:45  <supermop> but metering and sensor quality has gotten much beter since 2005, even on the entry level bodies
16:42:53  <planetmaker> yep
16:43:13  <supermop> i am mostly dissatisfied with low-light
16:43:39  <andythenorth> Alberth: so....reverse generating from png names?
16:43:51  <supermop> the new bodies have isos up to the 10s of thousands that dont look noisy
16:44:20  <supermop> whereass on mine i get a lot of noise even at lower isos
16:44:35  <planetmaker> yeah, sensor quality got a lot better
16:45:02  <Alberth> andythenorth: yeah, doesn't that sound like a good idea?
16:45:10  <supermop> but my other problem is that i can't always have a tripod
16:45:22  <supermop> and the new lenses can correct for vibration
16:45:23  <andythenorth> Alberth: in principle
16:45:42  <andythenorth> but I wonder chicken-egg?  where are the pngs before they're generated?
16:45:46  <__ln__>
16:45:58  <planetmaker> supermop, better performance at higher ISO "corrects" for that, too
16:46:11  <Alberth> andythenorth: you give a filename after they are generated :o
16:46:13  <Alberth> ?
16:46:52  <andythenorth> currently yes
16:48:18  <supermop> the fx lenses also let more light through than the dx ones, typically 73 instead of 52mm filter size, at the expense of being heavy and bulky
16:48:24  <supermop> what body do you use?
16:48:34  <bolli> so would i use SIGPIPE with kill and pipe the command to it?
16:48:54  <Alberth> huh?
16:49:11  <bolli> i'm a bit confused about how to send the command using kill...
16:49:14  <Alberth> kill takes a PID as parameter to send the signal to
16:49:28  <planetmaker> I still have a canon 30D
16:49:36  <planetmaker> but it gets time to upgrade that, too
16:49:46  <Alberth> bolli: type 'ps ux'
16:50:00  <bolli> ok...
16:50:09  <Alberth> first column is the PID number, then type  'kill PID'
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16:50:19  <Alberth> for a friendly nudge to close down :)
16:50:43  <bolli> ok...
16:50:50  <bolli> but i just want to send a command to it..
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16:50:57  <Alberth> don't use the PID of the shell you are using  :p
16:51:58  <Alberth> it's not an input stream, kill only sends a signal
16:52:00  <Ammler> bolli: maybe you wanna use the admin interface
16:52:08  * Alberth guess that too
16:52:15  <Alberth> *guesses
16:52:35  <bolli> admin interface?
16:52:42  <bolli> i'm using the command line...
16:52:49  <Ammler> but if you are on the same host as you plan to run openttd, screen is easiest
16:53:15  <planetmaker> bolli, 'screen' is also a command. Not a piece of hardware
16:53:22  <Ammler> :-D
16:53:33  * bolli googles
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16:53:41  <Ammler> but fully valid to mention that indeed
16:54:33  <Ammler> I guess, we never tried, if autopilot would work in background
16:55:58  <Ammler> bolli: screen is quite certain installed on your system already, so you could check the man page instead a random website
16:56:41  <Alberth> andythenorth:    this is one of the simplest forms, I think
16:56:51  * Alberth is afk for some dinner
16:57:17  <Ammler> for start run "screen" then run "openttd -D", then simply quit your ssh session and reconnect and run "screen -x"
16:58:28  <bolli> and how would i disconnect from that session if its in openttd?
16:58:49  <Ammler> you hit the X on your console window
16:59:00  <bolli> ok....
16:59:13  <Ammler> "simulate" a disconnect
17:00:05  <Ammler> there are of course detach etc. for screen, which you will find in the manpage, but who uses that? :-)
17:00:13  <bolli> ok....
17:00:35  <andythenorth> Alberth: interesting.  It would need to decode which gestalt to use
17:01:01  <andythenorth> currently the filenames do encode a gestalt ID, so possible
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17:27:08  <morphium> Hey, me again. Is it possible to compile ONLY a dedicated server version of Openttd?
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17:31:01  <__mj> hi, quick question, whats the standard procedure for releasing a patch on openttd ? just post it in the forums with a description ?
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17:33:29  <andythenorth> __mj: yes
17:33:34  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
17:33:36  <andythenorth> if it's a big patch, break it into chunks
17:34:06  <NGC3982> you know you live close to food when you can irc from your own wifi, at the pizza shop.
17:34:39  <__mj> andythenorth: like a patch for each file ?
17:34:49  <andythenorth> a patch for each logical segment
17:35:18  <andythenorth> so if you add a new hook for feature x, then that's one patch
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17:35:28  <andythenorth> and the code that uses your new hook is another patch
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17:35:59  <andythenorth> or if you patch timetables and cargo loading, it's probably two patches etc etc
17:36:51  <__mj> well, its rather one large aspect of the game, but I will find some way to break it up somehow
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17:37:55  <andythenorth> a set of small patches are more likely to be reviewed
17:38:04  <andythenorth> and nothing gets included without review
17:38:22  <andythenorth> ;)
17:38:28  <__mj> :) good
17:38:51  <__mj> its the template based train replacement patch I posted about, in about a millenium ago
17:39:04  <andythenorth> consists?
17:39:07  <andythenorth> sounds like
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17:40:21  <__mj> uhm, yes, you pre-define virtual trains and tell which of your current trains shall get changed in the depot once they enter it, like autoreplacement but for whole trains instead of single vehicles
17:40:43  <__mj> based on groups for control which trains will get replaced and which don't
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17:56:51  <bolli> hmm
17:57:08  <bolli> my fiddling with processes has created a "frozen" openttd copy :/
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18:05:22  <Alberth> 'suspend process' is also a kill signal :)
18:06:43  *** ProfFrink [] has joined #openttd
18:07:08  <Alberth> __mj: basic rule is indeed: one logical change == one patch file
18:08:26  <planetmaker> __mj, second basic rule: after each patch, OpenTTD must continue to compile and work
18:09:35  <planetmaker> a good guide on how things can be broken down is found at various times within the commit history of OpenTTD for the majority of the non-trivial features
18:10:25  <morphee> I just give up, can't make Autopilot+ to work
18:10:30  <morphee> :D
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18:14:50  <Terkhen> hello
18:15:06  <andythenorth> Alberth: wrt make....I wonder whether to just do second-simplest thing I can think of:
18:15:22  <andythenorth> - have each gestalt write out a manifest for all of its pngs
18:15:32  <andythenorth> tell make the manifest is the target...
18:16:12  <__mj> what is a reasonable number of LoC per patch ?
18:16:54  *** ProfFrink [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:18:01  <Alberth> loc is not that interesting, the number of conceptual changes is.
18:20:20  <planetmaker> __mj, e.g. see r23932 to r23936 for an idea of how splitting makes sense
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18:23:11  <Alberth> andythenorth: hmm, nice idea.  May be easier to add a check to each gestalt whether it should regenerate each gestalt (based on time stamps), and if not have it skip its generation. Then run the 5 or so gestalts in parallel.
18:23:24  <andythenorth> yup
18:23:33  <andythenorth> each gestalt should be entirely self-contained imho
18:23:41  <andythenorth> I've tried thinking of config files for them etc
18:23:43  <Alberth> also gives better options for caching data :)
18:23:56  <andythenorth> but I come back to always 'just put the config in the python' :P
18:24:32  <andythenorth> I also considered the case of a gestalt that might generate ~200 output pngs, which will be slow
18:24:42  <andythenorth> (for slow = ~10s)
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18:25:10  <Alberth> one time slow is not that bad in general
18:25:21  <andythenorth> in that case, if something changes that requires regeneration, it probably requires regeneration of all
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18:25:32  <andythenorth> unless a cargo sprite changed...
18:25:44  <andythenorth> but I'd rather throw more CPU at these occasional tasks
18:25:59  <Alberth> has checking up-to-dateness any use then?
18:26:06  <andythenorth> only of the input files
18:26:10  <andythenorth> afaict
18:26:16  <andythenorth> e.g. a dep check or such
18:26:32  <Alberth> sounds likely
18:26:48  <andythenorth> user shouldn't be modifying / deleting output
18:26:54  <andythenorth> things go wrong if they do that :P
18:26:57  <andythenorth> in the grf
18:27:34  <andythenorth> shall I make pixa write a manifest?
18:28:59  <Alberth> make does need a list of targets for it to decide whether to run the command, so in that sense, yes
18:29:33  <Alberth> ie like the -M output of gcc/g++
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18:35:59  <Wolf01> hellol
18:37:08  <Alberth> hello Wolf01
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18:43:50  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24019 /trunk/src/lang/french.txt:
18:43:50  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:43:50  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 24 changes by OliTTD
18:46:07  *** Maarten [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:48:39  <andythenorth> Alberth: manifests are now generated, in a horrible way
18:48:47  <__mj> Alberth: 'loc is not that interesting, the number of conceptual changes is.'  << well, it's 3 gui componentes and one big conceptual theme in my case
18:48:56  <andythenorth> it needs far too much code added to the gestalt currently :P
18:49:05  * andythenorth -> baby -> bath
18:49:14  <andythenorth> I've pushed
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18:53:33  <zxbiohazardzx> back
18:53:37  * zxbiohazardzx is no longer away : Gone for 3 hours 12 minutes 37 seconds
18:53:46  <zxbiohazardzx> hmmz
18:54:11  <zxbiohazardzx> in window_type.h, i see alot changed between this old patch and new code
18:54:16  <zxbiohazardzx> mostly more comments
18:54:18  <Alberth> __mj: it's fine to consider adding 1 gui component a conceptual change :)
18:54:41  <zxbiohazardzx> can i just add WC_BUILD_HOUSE anywhere in the file or?
18:54:52  <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: I doubt people are that interested in how many seconds you went afk
18:55:22  <zxbiohazardzx> i didnt put it for that
18:55:25  <zxbiohazardzx> im on multiple channels
18:55:34  <zxbiohazardzx> so my IRC client puts away and back statusses automatically
18:55:49  <zxbiohazardzx> so sorry for the spamzorz :P
18:56:00  <Alberth> it's not a status change here
18:56:02  * planetmaker wonders whether *anyone* could possibly interested in that
18:56:23  * zxbiohazardzx slaps planetmaker around abit with a large rainbow
18:56:28  * zxbiohazardzx take that you unicorn!
18:56:41  <zxbiohazardzx> anyway back to the contentual questions :P
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18:57:22  <zxbiohazardzx> in window_type.h can i just add a line wih WC_BUILD_HOUSE somewhere in the file or not?
18:57:36  <zxbiohazardzx> as the previous patch shows them as more of an ENUM styled list
18:57:45  <zxbiohazardzx> and they added it on the bottom just before WC_INVALID
18:57:59  <zxbiohazardzx> but now there is alot more WC_* stuff in between and comments on top of each
18:58:02  <NGC3982> hm
18:58:09  <NGC3982> im recently introduced to timetables
18:58:18  <NGC3982> i barely understand various bits of it
18:58:30  <NGC3982> though, can i set conditions based on the content of stations?
18:58:49  <NGC3982> would be neat to tell a train to visist station X only when it contains Y amount of Q.
18:58:53  <NGC3982> ;)
18:58:57  <NGC3982> -s
18:59:00  <Alberth> never seen such conditions
18:59:25  <NGC3982> i see.
18:59:28  <Alberth> I also have some doubts whether it is possible
18:59:59  <NGC3982> what we are trying to achieve is a pack of trains, waiting in depot until a big ass boat arrives with stuff.
19:00:05  <Alberth> the next order is evaluated several times, and if it changes in the mean-time, things get very tricky
19:01:19  <NGC3982> i see.
19:01:23  <Alberth> you should check the available conditional orders to verify whether I am right
19:01:37  <zxbiohazardzx> also in terraform_gui.cpp, did we stop using ETTW_stuff and replaced it with WID_stuff?
19:02:09  <Alberth> NGC3982:  why not make some tracks for trains to wait?
19:02:17  <zxbiohazardzx> trying to update a patch that was up to date @ 22277 so yeah
19:02:49  <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: stuff changed when goal scripts needed access to the gui buttons
19:02:57  <zxbiohazardzx> yeah i figured
19:03:10  <zxbiohazardzx> im just trying to get this patch back on head
19:03:49  <zxbiohazardzx> but i ran into some issues on the window_type.h (new comments, i think i added the WC_BUILD_HOUSE line correctly, but im wondering what the comment above the others exactly is
19:04:04  <zxbiohazardzx> most likely my comment will be Build house; %Window numbers:
19:05:03  <zxbiohazardzx> - #BuildHouse = #BuildHouseWidgets (or 0 - #BuildHouseWidgets not sure)
19:05:25  <Alberth> links to goal script stuff
19:05:46  <zxbiohazardzx> well old file didnt link, and thats all in comments so it will be ignored anyway?
19:06:03  <zxbiohazardzx> old file had:
19:06:03  <zxbiohazardzx>  	WC_GRF_PARAMETERS,
19:06:03  <zxbiohazardzx>  	WC_BUILD_OBJECT,
19:06:03  <zxbiohazardzx> +	WC_BUILD_HOUSE,
19:06:37  <Alberth> the docs are ignored, but there is another table somewhere for the purpose of GS
19:06:41  <zxbiohazardzx> id assume i can just insert the WC_BUILD_HOUSE in after WC_BUILD_OBJECT however im not sure why all the /*comments with widgets exist, as they are ignored right?*/
19:06:47  <zxbiohazardzx> ah ok
19:06:52  <zxbiohazardzx> then ill just add it and the docs
19:08:04  <zxbiohazardzx> hmmz ill have to check out the terraform stuff though, you really overhauled that one :P
19:08:43  <Alberth> I didn't :)
19:09:05  <zxbiohazardzx> the rest did :P
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19:16:49  *** cypher [] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
19:18:45  <zxbiohazardzx> also is there a list of Hotkeys i cannot use for the GUI?
19:19:18  <zxbiohazardzx> current list is QWEDUIOP for the existing ones, id like to claim H, but is there some hotkeys we cant map or?
19:22:17  * Alberth does not know
19:23:16  <Alberth> Ammler: what about enforcing a filename convention instead?
19:23:24  <zxbiohazardzx> ill just leave it as a TODO like in original
19:24:21  <Alberth> Ammler: imho that would be what you want for people with case-sensitive file systems anyway
19:32:31  <__mj> in general, is it frowned upon to skip checks for text-direction settings ? I mean if you draw your strings only in left to right direction ?
19:32:59  <zxbiohazardzx> i think most services only offer left-right directional texts
19:33:07  <zxbiohazardzx> i know twitter only swapped recently XD
19:33:51  <__mj> I always skipped the rtl checks in my code but made a few markers to maybe include it later on, in case the devs complain ^^
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19:34:34  <zxbiohazardzx> Hotkey<ScenarioEditorLandscapeGenerationWindow>('H', "house", WID_ETT_PLACE_HOUSE), // TODO: check if this is valid
19:35:05  <zxbiohazardzx> anyone see an objection against that binding, as i think its only bound when the scenario editor terraforming window is active
19:36:21  <Alberth> entire trunk does both directions
19:37:31  <Alberth> and we will thus complain if it gets that far :p
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19:41:37  <zxbiohazardzx> hmmz
19:41:41  <zxbiohazardzx> i reached end of patch o_o
19:41:52  <zxbiohazardzx> so its time to eeehm go check and diff it out :P
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19:44:57  <zxbiohazardzx> ow yeah building ottd stinks now i remember :P
19:45:20  <zxbiohazardzx> no cmake, no VS10 solution XD
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19:46:48  <planetmaker> you're at least 50% wrong
19:47:05  <planetmaker> nor do I understand your obsession with cmake
19:47:16  <zxbiohazardzx> its wintendo user proof?
19:47:29  <zxbiohazardzx> and for me its quite fast on the world of warcraft emulation builds :P
19:47:55  <planetmaker> ./configure && make && make run
19:48:04  <planetmaker> dunno what's missing there
19:48:10  <zxbiohazardzx> :P
19:48:21  <planetmaker> and VS has its own projects
19:48:33  <planetmaker> nor does cmake magically install missing deps
19:49:57  <zxbiohazardzx> fair enough
19:50:40  <planetmaker> (and make is more cross-platform than cmake ;-) )
19:51:01  <TinoDidriksen> CMake uses make
19:51:05  * andythenorth adventures into the fridge
19:51:08  <zxbiohazardzx> indeed it does
19:51:11  <TinoDidriksen> Or whatever else is on the platform
19:51:30  <zxbiohazardzx> oeee andythenorth, get me some icecream?
19:51:55  <andythenorth> bavarian smoked cheese?  brunswick ham?  Bitburger beer?  Definite germanic theme in today's fridge
19:52:08  <andythenorth> saucisson sec?  chorizo?
19:52:15  <zxbiohazardzx> jagermeister?
19:52:17  * andythenorth has been propping up the eurozone some more it seems
19:52:17  <zxbiohazardzx> no?
19:52:59  <Alberth> andythenorth: perhaps you should come live here too :)
19:53:14  <andythenorth> in the eurozone?
19:53:16  <andythenorth> perhaps :)
19:53:41  <zxbiohazardzx> euro = win
19:53:48  <zxbiohazardzx> stupid greece stinks though
19:53:59  <andythenorth> I think I'd prefer california - for the weather, not the food
19:55:03  <andythenorth> Alberth: any inspiration wrt make and manifests etc?
19:56:00  <Alberth> your solution is a bit reversed w.r.t. what you want, I think :)
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19:58:13  <andythenorth> Alberth: quite possible
19:58:54  <Alberth> hmm, running bandit is not trivial :(
19:59:13  <andythenorth> which aspects?
19:59:28  *** Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
19:59:30  <Alberth> ImportError: cannot import name PageTemplateLoader
19:59:40  <andythenorth> easy_install chameleon
20:00:06  <andythenorth> I have a plan for fetching deps - later though
20:01:27  *** mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
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20:05:31  <Alberth> I installed a chameleon python package which is some zpt template language, and the loader code looks dirty enough to be from easy_install. Unfortunately, it also does not explain where it got installed :(
20:08:53  <andythenorth> is that bad?
20:10:51  <Alberth> if you want to look whether such a file exists in the package, it might be :p     the manifest does not list it, so I assume it's the wrong one.
20:11:53  <andythenorth> well it sounds like you got the correct package
20:12:05  <andythenorth> tbh I have no idea how this is usually done
20:12:13  <andythenorth> I live in a world of buildout for python
20:12:40  <andythenorth> run buildout, get all deps needed, isolated to one local path, not spewed all over your system python
20:12:55  *** supermop [] has joined #openttd
20:13:06  <Alberth> I don't have write access there :)
20:13:33  <andythenorth> usr python :P
20:13:46  * andythenorth plans to provide a buildout for BANDIT
20:13:48  <andythenorth> later
20:14:44  <supermop> wait
20:14:51  <supermop> andythenorth:
20:15:05  <Alberth>    could be one step towards a more uniform .png name
20:15:13  * andythenorth thinks supermop will be busy now
20:15:50  <andythenorth> Alberth: surely you can that into one line :D
20:16:02  <Alberth> yes :)
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20:17:28  <Alberth> return '_'.join(name if name else 'none' for name in raw) + '.png
20:17:56  <Alberth>  -2 lines :)
20:23:54  <andythenorth> \o/
20:25:27  <Alberth> from the gestalt, you can deduce the number of features, it seems
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20:27:12  <andythenorth> yes
20:27:31  <andythenorth> it's quite important to know that gestalts may differ wildly from each other
20:27:52  <andythenorth> the only commonality is that they output n pngs
20:28:24  <Alberth> if you start with the gestalt in the .png name, you can use that to decode the other parameters
20:28:55  <andythenorth> so 'tipping_trailer' etc
20:29:18  <andythenorth> or 'tippingtrailer' depending on how much effort we want to put into splits
20:30:31  * Alberth wonders whether 'generate' could be lifted out of the gestalts
20:30:59  <Alberth> tipping-trailer   :)
20:32:44  <andythenorth> Alberth: I tried to figure out lifting generate
20:32:56  <andythenorth> it's too specific to the combination of variables
20:33:13  <andythenorth> or configuring pixa gets too complex ;)
20:33:24  <andythenorth> I think it could be decomposed into more functions though
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20:35:59  <Alberth> what if you put the variables and their ranges in a dict?
20:36:10  *** mahmoud [] has joined #openttd
20:36:56  <Alberth> eg a  string -> list of values  mapping
20:37:07  *** Booth [] has joined #openttd
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20:37:52  <andythenorth> possible
20:40:35  <andythenorth> Alberth: there's an interesting overlap with BANDIT's
20:40:47  <andythenorth> which has to know some stuff about available graphics
20:40:59  <andythenorth> this is rather BANDIT specific though
20:46:35  <Alberth> nothing wrong with that
20:47:29  <Alberth> you'd use a class here, I think, where the basic process is defined in the base class, and you can refine some details of the process in a derived class
20:48:07  <Alberth> but it gets a bit tricky to explain that to people not used thinking in that way
20:48:20  *** Booth is now known as Chris_Booth
20:48:39  <andythenorth> it's fine for me
20:48:50  <andythenorth> I'm happy to have gestalts inherit
20:49:04  <andythenorth> or have them use a generate class, with inheritance
20:49:38  <andythenorth> I guess my concern is making this available to people who just want to replace load sprite colours or such
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21:11:01  <andythenorth> oh how interesting
21:11:07  <andythenorth> openttd won't build
21:11:27  <andythenorth>
21:11:53  <planetmaker> reconfigure
21:12:11  <planetmaker> your icu seems... strange or different
21:12:24  <andythenorth> I did a port upgrade on everything today
21:12:28  <andythenorth> not 100% intentionally
21:12:36  <Rubidium> typical upgrade of icu
21:13:00  <andythenorth> I should downgrade?
21:13:02  <Rubidium> touch src/strings.cpp src/gfx.cpp shouldsolve it
21:13:09  <Rubidium> + a make
21:14:35  <supermop> planetmaker:
21:14:46  <Rubidium> andythenorth: a downgrade is not needed
21:14:59  <Rubidium> just a selective recompile of the stuff that is linked to ICU
21:15:02  <andythenorth> k
21:15:05  <andythenorth> thanks
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21:29:46  <andythenorth> Alberth: so the aspect I miss - if the pngs specify the to create the pngs?   manually?
21:31:51  <Alberth> I'd say you have the ranges for the values already, you just need to link them to the variables. Then you can quite easily generate all combinations, without hooking it into the generator
21:35:08  <andythenorth> so BANDIT generates the filenames?
21:35:41  <Alberth> with anything > 5 filenames, I'd prefer that very much :D
21:35:53  <andythenorth> can it just do something like 'touch foo.png'
21:36:04  <andythenorth> rather than opening PIL and writing actual pngs?
21:36:29  <Alberth> theoretically yes, except then it is up-to-date w.r.t. all existing files
21:37:33  <andythenorth> I'd need a specific arg to do that I think
21:37:45  <andythenorth> otherwise building the grf means running the generator :)
21:38:03  <Alberth> add a -M option :D
21:38:28  <andythenorth> I'll keep this as notes
21:38:43  <Ammler> Alberth: we don't have a case insensitive file name convention, not sure, we would want one
21:39:15  <Alberth> Ammler: I was refering to a case-sensitive filename convention
21:39:52  <Alberth> if you have that, you cannot make 'double' filenames any more
21:41:22  <Ammler> so you would force people to have lower case only?
21:41:35  <Alberth> for example, yes
21:41:59  <andythenorth> ho
21:42:07  <andythenorth> all my acronyms :(
21:42:24  <Alberth> otherwise you get    foo.txt   Bar.txt   SPAM.TXT
21:42:29  <Ammler> as said, I would not like that, of course if that is the only possibility, it needs considering...
21:42:50  <andythenorth> most of my files are lower case
21:43:01  <andythenorth> it's a habit from making the internets :P
21:43:16  <Ammler> Alberth: i prefer README, others prefer readme.txt
21:43:28  <Alberth> all my filenames are lowercase, I hate needing the shift key to enter a filename :)
21:43:33  <andythenorth> +1
21:43:43  <andythenorth> apparently we have a lot of though ;)
21:44:14  <andythenorth> I have some FISH and BANDITS and HEQS
21:44:18  <Alberth> Ammler: you can have only one readme in a project
21:44:19  <andythenorth> no FIRS though
21:44:33  <andythenorth> readme.txt of course
21:44:39  <andythenorth> upper caps fails readability
21:44:42  <Ammler> Alberth: that's the point such a convention might be usefl per project
21:44:43  <Alberth> GNU said the name should be Makefile
21:44:57  <Ammler> buton devzone there are 50? projects
21:45:03  <andythenorth> GNU can pay wear and tear on my shift key :P
21:45:37  <Ammler> and many individuals, which all like different file names :-)
21:45:38  <Alberth> Ammler: ah, you want one solution for all projects? ok
21:46:32  <Ammler> well, I want a solution, we can enable per default,
21:46:58  <Alberth> I was just pondering about the problem, and after realizing you are asking for something completely new (namely looking at existing files in the project), I got wondering whether other solutions were possible,
21:47:45  <andythenorth> do we cache file names for the dep check?
21:48:52  <Alberth> andythenorth: tbh, I am quite not sure you'd want to run pixa for generating just one .png file
21:49:02  <andythenorth> Alberth: you wouldn't :)
21:49:12  <andythenorth> the setup overhead wouldn't pay off
21:49:20  <andythenorth> I am planning to generate ~3000
21:49:28  <andythenorth> which is acceptable
21:49:40  <Alberth> so you need to be able to define sets of pngs to construct
21:50:13  <andythenorth> yup
21:50:37  <andythenorth> I could create classes for them in the BANDIT code
21:50:56  <andythenorth> hmm
21:51:07  <andythenorth> but the classes would be effectively doing what gestalts do
21:51:28  * andythenorth is scratching head still
21:54:31  <andythenorth> I have the mapping of cargos to gestalts
21:54:40  <andythenorth> but not the coloursets
21:54:52  <andythenorth> but BANDIT will need to know about coloursets anyway, to code them
21:54:55  <andythenorth> ho
21:55:12  <andythenorth> Alberth: I'll sleep on it, might wake up with the answer
21:55:22  <andythenorth> unless you patch in the meanwhile :D
21:55:26  <Alberth> you could make a file with the names (simple, but not very maintainable), list the files on the command-line, or define it more globally in a constraint-form
21:56:36  <andythenorth> I think there's an answer somewhere in that BANDIT has to know the file patterns
21:57:35  <andythenorth> then gestalts aren't tied to BANDIT so much, and could maybe be reused easier by other people
21:57:37  <Alberth> you'll need that, I think when you want more control over what an invocation of Pixa will do
21:59:47  <Alberth> the question is however whether you can split the variables and their values nicely enough from the generate code
22:00:47  <Alberth> hmm, perhaps add some extra function parameters to handle the special cases?
22:01:24  <Alberth> (that is, give generate a function as parameter, which it can call)
22:01:32  <Nat_aS> is there any reason why trains going diagonally appear larger?
22:01:51  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
22:01:54  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
22:02:06  <Alberth> which of course a framework in disguise :p
22:03:16  <andythenorth> framework is fine ;)
22:03:55  <andythenorth> I should write out a list of filename patterns
22:04:03  <Alberth> Nat_aS: there probably is.
22:04:42  <andythenorth> some are very simple: e.g. tanker trailers have only colour variations.  There's no difference per cargo.
22:04:50  <andythenorth> others have lots of variations
22:05:04  <Nat_aS> is there any people from the unrealistic trainset on right now?
22:05:13  <andythenorth> hmm
22:05:16  <andythenorth> gestalts could chain
22:05:32  <andythenorth> stake-trailer is a flat-trailer with a parameter
22:05:50  <andythenorth> tipping-trailer-4px is a tipping-trailer with parameter for 4px high body
22:05:54  <Alberth> Nat_aS: all trainsets are unrealistic by that standard :p
22:06:05  <Nat_aS> V453000 Hanf Chris_Booth Mazur stephanbarth
22:06:29  <Nat_aS> no the unrealistic trainset is the name of a specific newgrif
22:06:30  *** tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
22:06:30  <Alberth> Nat_aS: not very nice doing that
22:06:38  <Chris_Booth> LoL
22:06:59  <Mazur> !kill Nat_aS
22:07:01  <Chris_Booth> a few of us are here
22:07:14  <Nat_aS> pinging people?
22:07:19  * Chris_Booth saw Mazur doing it!
22:08:45  <Nat_aS> what's wrong with pinging to get people's attention?
22:08:55  <Nat_aS> anyways Chris, can I see that sheet of engine types?
22:09:17  <Chris_Booth> what sheet of engines?
22:09:19  <Alberth> because you don't know whether they know the answer
22:09:50  <Chris_Booth> everything for NUTS can be found in
22:09:50  <Alberth> at most you should only ping that person that knows the answer
22:09:59  <Nat_aS> no, those are people who DO know the answer
22:10:14  <Nat_aS> they are listed on the Unrealistic trainset's webpage
22:10:15  <Alberth> then you still don't need them all 5
22:10:17  <Chris_Booth> Nat_aS: no we do not
22:10:20  <Nat_aS> the question is "Are you on"
22:10:35  <Nat_aS> only they can answer that question.
22:10:42  <Nat_aS> and the answer can only be yes.
22:10:46  <andythenorth> if you must do it, limit yourself to 2
22:10:47  <andythenorth> :P
22:10:50  <Nat_aS> a negitive result comes from not answering.
22:11:04  <andythenorth> or do @seen Nat_aS
22:11:07  *** Pikka [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]]
22:11:27  <andythenorth> @seen Nat_aS
22:11:27  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Nat_aS was last seen in #openttd 37 seconds ago: <Nat_aS> a negitive result comes from not answering.
22:11:37  <andythenorth> but too much of that is annoying too
22:11:41  <Nat_aS> lol
22:11:48  <Nat_aS> that's probably more spammy
22:12:09  <Alberth> just as annoying for the pinged person
22:12:27  <Nat_aS> and makes more channel noise than just listing there names.
22:12:39  <andythenorth> Nat_aS: why didn't you just look in the list of people in the channel?
22:12:58  <Nat_aS> that wont tell me if they are AFK or not
22:13:02  <Nat_aS> not even @seen will do that
22:13:05  <Chris_Booth> Nat_aS: do you mean this: ?
22:13:11  *** lmergen [] has joined #openttd
22:13:12  <Nat_aS> it's a perfectly normal way to get somebody's attention on irc
22:13:20  <Nat_aS> and yes thank you!
22:13:24  <Nat_aS> that's what I wanted!
22:13:45  <Chris_Booth> you could have found that yourself where I told you on
22:14:04  <Nat_aS> oh that
22:14:04  <V453000> there are people from unrealistic people
22:14:08  <Nat_aS> that is where i looked first
22:14:15  <Nat_aS> and could not find it.
22:14:21  <V453000> what do you need?
22:14:31  <Nat_aS> I just wanted to look at the list
22:14:33  <Chris_Booth> just to be annoying V
22:14:39  <Nat_aS> I have my own ideas for a balanced fantasy trainset.
22:15:19  <V453000> list ... is at the devzone, issue called engine table iirc
22:15:36  <Chris_Booth> V read up ^ I posted it
22:15:50  <Chris_Booth> Chris_Booth: do you mean this: ?
22:15:52  <Nat_aS> I might be intrested in helping you guys (I used to make trains for simutrans, one of which is still in the current build) or just use your ideas as a springboard
22:16:16  <Nat_aS> and yes I see it now, I just didn't look in the right place there
22:16:26  <Chris_Booth> Nat_aS: please join #openttdcoop.devzone if you want to help with this set
22:16:38  <andythenorth> Alberth: filenames might need some kind of delimiters :|
22:16:46  <andythenorth> I don't trust delimiters :)
22:16:58  *** Chris_Booth [] has quit [Quit: Night Night all]
22:18:11  <Alberth> andythenorth: just check them to death (split, check how many you have, check whether they match with known values)
22:18:52  <andythenorth> so if i in foo, otherwise raise...
22:19:13  <andythenorth> ok
22:19:18  <Alberth> I am a defensive programmer, so yes, I would do that :)
22:19:21  <Nat_aS> this might be a rude question but what is it with open source communities and not liking people who ask questions?
22:19:54  <Alberth> it's mostly how you ask, I think
22:20:23  *** mahmoud [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:21:00  <Nat_aS> it's because calling people by name makes the post show up in red, so it looks angry
22:21:13  <Nat_aS> whoever programed pings didn't consider the implications of that.
22:26:05  <andythenorth> I think it was mostly because your ping included 2 people not in the channel, which is silly :D
22:26:33  <andythenorth> Alberth: so I'm thinking some kind of dispatcher script, that decodes the filenames (similar to your example paste)
22:26:35  <Alberth> and also being very pushy, imho
22:26:54  <andythenorth> I could do the splits in make, maybe, but make syntax has zero appeal to me :P
22:27:03  * planetmaker expects to be highlighted with a meaningful question / statement in the same line or only when I'm currently active in the channel
22:27:26  <planetmaker> otherwise I'll just ignore the highlight even when I'm online
22:27:39  <planetmaker> (and might ignore further ones from that person)
22:28:16  * andythenorth is somewhat inspired by url dispatchers in web frameworks, which use patterns to find which class(es) need to handle the request
22:29:25  <andythenorth> stuff like this:
22:30:26  <Nat_aS> Chris_Booth, you aren't in that channel
22:31:22  <andythenorth> hmm andythenorth has never seen pesto before, but it solves an equivalent problem for pixa: it will also generate a url for anything the dispatcher can handle
22:31:43  <Alberth> andythenorth: splitting in python seems to make most sense to me
22:31:45  * andythenorth is thinking aloud, probably too much
22:32:07  <Alberth> we're used to you doing that :)
22:32:42  *** Pulec [] has quit []
22:32:45  <andythenorth> so ideally the decoder would be a set of classes / methods that can both decode (and pass to pixa)
22:33:07  <andythenorth> and also encode....called by BANDIT with params, when the -M arg is used (or similar)
22:33:18  <andythenorth> then all the patterns can be kept in one location
22:34:18  <Alberth> -M could be useful, at least for debugging; not sure whether you actually need it, as you want to generate groups of them anyway
22:34:51  <andythenorth> I only mention it because I'm short of ideas for generating initial pngs
22:35:18  <andythenorth> the encoder / decoder could do it
22:35:20  <Alberth> ie I was thinking in terms of   gestalt=X length=7 length=5
22:35:29  <Alberth> as command-line aruments
22:36:25  <andythenorth> I think I need to understand the pipeline a little more
22:36:47  <andythenorth> so: to generate rendered pngs: make -> dispatcher -> gestalt -> pixa -> png
22:37:29  <andythenorth> to configure make?
22:38:56  <Alberth> hmm, tricky
22:39:37  <andythenorth> BANDIT -> mappings in global_constants -> dispatcher -> write empty pngs?
22:39:45  <Alberth> maybe just use a single file as reference for building a whole group?
22:40:33  <andythenorth> could be
22:40:38  <Alberth> which sort of implies you either generate all of them or none
22:40:47  <andythenorth> I'm fine with that
22:41:09  <andythenorth> if I've understood correctly though, it's similar to what a gestalt currently does...
22:41:10  *** peteris [~peteris@] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
22:41:37  <Alberth> it does not have to be a real 'png' file even, it can be just a dummy empty file
22:41:57  <Alberth> good point
22:42:01  * andythenorth wonders whats 'intrinsic' to a gestalt, and what's 'extrinsic'
22:42:17  <andythenorth> cargo might be extrinsic
22:42:40  <andythenorth> cargo also happens to be something BANDIT needs to specifically handle
22:43:07  <andythenorth> hmm
22:43:17  <andythenorth> sleep is something currently extrinsic to andythenorth
22:43:22  <andythenorth> that might have to change :D
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22:43:47  <Alberth> do you want those groups being equal to the gestalts, or should that be more flexible
22:44:01  <andythenorth> I think they're equal so far
22:44:10  <andythenorth> it seems to work
22:44:32  <andythenorth> but it was only done this way for convenience
22:45:16  <andythenorth> hmm
22:45:25  <andythenorth> one way might be to generate against cargo sprites
22:45:44  * Alberth feels sleepy
22:45:44  <andythenorth> which I think I'll generate in a separate project, then put into BANDITs repo
22:46:00  <andythenorth> +1 to sleep
22:46:03  * andythenorth -> bed
22:46:12  <andythenorth> the answer usually presents itself when I wake up
22:46:36  <andythenorth> if not I'll write out all the filename combinations I can think of in pencil on paper
22:46:42  <andythenorth> that usually does the trick
22:46:58  <andythenorth> good night
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23:24:03  <morph`> OK, there's this peanut-butter cookie on my desk
23:24:22  <morph`> It tastes really good, but I am on a diet for last 10 months
23:24:24  <morph`> Should I?
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23:35:34  <Wolf01> uhm, you reminded me I have a box full of biscuits hidden here around
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