Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:01:02 <Nat_aS> it's suposed to be able to boot from USB, one of the options on the boot menu is USB-HDD 00:01:05 <Nat_aS> but It wont do it 00:01:12 <Nat_aS> it just boots straight to windows 00:01:23 <Nat_aS> I wish there was a way to install an OS from a running OS 00:01:34 <Nat_aS> even if that OS is a malware infested mess. 00:03:02 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 00:03:04 <Eddi|zuHause> windows might not allow you to access the boot sector 00:04:18 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 00:06:32 <Nat_aS> man, this mini CD is almost small enough to fit on floppys 00:06:36 <Nat_aS> 12.5 mb 00:06:46 <Nat_aS> that's like what, 10 disks? 00:06:51 <planetmaker> just a factor of 10... 00:07:02 <TinoDidriksen> Floppy is 1.44mb 00:07:19 <planetmaker> wrong! it's 360 kByte! 00:07:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean 1.7MB :p 00:07:26 <Nat_aS> I just need a disk 00:07:29 <Nat_aS> TO THE STORE! 00:07:29 <planetmaker> It's 720 kByte! 00:07:34 <planetmaker> It's 1.2Mbyte! 00:07:55 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, the Win95-CD was split into 1.7MB "disks" 00:08:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and it actually worked copying them to actual disks to install without a CD drive 00:08:23 <planetmaker> oh, that was fun... I had a programme which could indeed format the floppies to that kind of size... 00:08:31 <planetmaker> Often it worked. But not always 00:08:33 <Eddi|zuHause> jep, VGACOPY 00:08:38 <planetmaker> ^^ indeed 00:08:55 <Eddi|zuHause> haven't seen a case where it didn't work 00:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but maybe those disks don't age as well 00:09:29 <Nat_aS> my corner store MIGHT sell blank CDs 00:09:35 <Nat_aS> otherwise I'm gonna give up for the night 00:09:37 <planetmaker> it didn't always work on those disks which you "enhanced" from 720kByte to 1.4 MByte by removing some plastic 00:09:48 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... 00:09:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, different thing :) 00:09:58 <planetmaker> :-) yeah 00:10:12 <Nat_aS> I got a Neotokyo Tourny in an hour, I can't be all stressed 00:10:16 <Eddi|zuHause> probably depends on the manufacturing quality then 00:10:25 <planetmaker> yep, that made a difference there 00:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause> you're way older than me :p 00:10:59 <peter1138> what are you talking about? 00:11:14 <peter1138> floppy disks are 5Œ" and hold 100KB on a side 00:11:36 <peter1138> if you're lucky got DD disks, 200KB a side! 00:11:38 <planetmaker> nah. 180kByte 00:11:52 <planetmaker> those were those MS Word 5.0 for DOS shipped on 00:11:58 <planetmaker> 20 pieces... 00:11:59 <peter1138> yeah, double density 00:12:02 <planetmaker> what a pain to install 00:12:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i have seen an actual 8" disk once. and a drive for it (on separate occasions) 00:12:24 <planetmaker> and a drive sound like an elch 00:12:36 <peter1138> what's an elch? 00:12:50 <planetmaker> Hm... Swedish animal? Probably wrong word then 00:12:55 <Eddi|zuHause> he means an elk :p 00:13:09 <planetmaker> ^^ 00:14:17 <peter1138> they're not swedish 00:15:12 <Eddi|zuHause> for broad definitions of "sweden" :p 00:15:31 <MNIM> if that includes large parts of the northern hemisphere, sure 00:16:48 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-188-97.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:17:02 <planetmaker> Rain is British, Elks are Swedish, Sauerkraut is German. ;-) 00:17:22 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-213-34-232-41.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #openttd 00:21:09 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-213-34-232-41.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [] 00:21:35 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 00:21:39 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-213-34-232-41.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #openttd 00:24:19 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-213-34-232-41.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:25:33 *** Firartix [~artixds@181.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:28:53 <Nat_aS> No disks at the corner store 00:28:59 <Nat_aS> I bought candy instead 00:29:00 <Nat_aS> delicious candy 00:30:16 *** peteris [~peteris@78.84.97.170] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 00:31:04 <MNIM> wrong. both rain and sauerkraut are dutch! >.> 00:34:21 *** namad7 [aaaaa@c-67-163-246-17.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:36:20 <Nat_aS> I have an old Laptop that may or may not work 00:36:34 <Nat_aS> only problem is it has no WiFi card 00:36:52 <Nat_aS> I need to buy a USB wi-fi adapter and blank CDs 00:42:59 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@c-67-163-246-17.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 00:44:24 *** Endymion_Mallorn [~pplgoldbl@ool-4579e3ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #openttd 00:54:22 <glx> it doesn't have an ethernet port ? 00:54:50 <Nat_aS> yeah but we don't have a long enough ethernet cable 00:55:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a laptop. move it. 00:55:24 <Wolf01> 'night 00:55:28 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host242-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 00:55:42 <Eddi|zuHause> night fro... i mean wolf... 01:09:53 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@9KCAAEKXG.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 01:15:56 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.104.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:47:20 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@9KCAAEKXG.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:49:25 *** pugi_ [~pugi@host-091-097-179-105.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 01:53:56 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-186-054.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:53:58 *** pugi_ is now known as pugi 01:56:57 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-27-54.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:01:40 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:01:48 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-179-105.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 02:02:47 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d821b67.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us] 02:37:52 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 02:48:09 *** perk11 [~perk11@46.242.11.118] has joined #openttd 02:51:54 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:8452:2054:7606:af7f] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:53:17 *** hbccbh [~hbc@113.93.70.104] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:53:50 *** hbccbh [~hbc@113.93.70.104] has joined #openttd 02:58:17 *** hbccbh [~hbc@113.93.70.104] has quit [] 03:00:16 *** mkv` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 03:07:08 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:01:00 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-11-52.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:01:37 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-158-149-85.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 04:11:37 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-158-149-85.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120305181207]] 04:14:53 *** perk11 [~perk11@46.242.11.118] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 04:33:10 *** Endymion_Mallorn [~pplgoldbl@ool-4579e3ca.dyn.optonline.net] has left #openttd [] 04:42:49 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-11-52.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 05:54:01 *** hbccbh [~hbc@116.27.170.108] has joined #openttd 05:54:30 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7433C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 05:54:45 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75785.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:29:44 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:34:46 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 06:34:47 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:39:52 <andythenorth> mornings 06:40:39 <Rubidium> morning's good 06:41:50 * andythenorth should stop reading the OpenTTD 2.0 thread early in the morning 06:41:51 <andythenorth> or ever 07:01:00 <xiong> Is there some reason why a FIRS Stockyard might not be built? At first I suspected an introduction date since I start in 1850 (although realistically, stockyards are ancient). But I'm able to *fund* a Stockyard. Meanwhile other industries are randomly starting on their own. 07:01:19 <xiong> By the way, props to whoever *didn't* introduce reefers too soon. In 1850 I quite correctly have source and consumers of fruit; and even ice box wagons; but no suitable rail cars. 07:03:25 <andythenorth> xiong: two of the several possible reasons for not building are: 07:03:36 <andythenorth> (1) random is actually being random 07:03:43 <andythenorth> (2) the map has no suitable location 07:04:05 <andythenorth> ;) 07:04:09 <xiong> Yah, andythenorth; I figured (1). Just wanted to make sure. 07:04:26 <xiong> The map is very flat; I don't see a location issue. 07:04:31 <andythenorth> the game is not great at providing industries that have date restrictions 07:04:41 <xiong> ? 07:04:58 <andythenorth> it does try to build them somewhat once the date restriction has passed, but often this doesn't produce the result a player might want 07:05:36 <andythenorth> i.e. afaik, it does favour trying to build industries which are (1) allowed to be built (2) have a low or zero count on the map 07:05:41 <xiong> Well, the initial distribution is equal to about 100 years of random insertion. 07:06:20 <xiong> *Does* the Stockyard introduce after 1850 or later? 07:06:37 <xiong> Better, is this documented somewhere, so I can study up? 07:10:50 <andythenorth> xiong: http://www.tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries?economy=point_7_release 07:11:01 <andythenorth> documentation not guaranteed canonical 07:11:06 <andythenorth> code is canonical ;) 07:11:31 <xiong> "The first refrigerated boxcar entered service in June 1851..." 07:12:08 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/sprites/nml/industries/stockyard.pnml 07:12:13 <andythenorth> L183 07:12:16 <andythenorth> 1867 07:13:10 <xiong> Yes, I'm looking. Thank you. 07:13:47 <andythenorth> I think there's a ticket somewhere about making stockyard always available, but changing graphics over time 07:14:00 <andythenorth> as there is no destination for livestock prior to stockyard 07:14:18 <xiong> That really makes no sense at all. Who figured 1867? People have been slaughtering all manner of beasts, en masse, for millenia. 07:15:58 <xiong> "The Union Stock Yard & Transit Co., or The Yards, was the meat packing district in Chicago for over a century starting in 1865." -- which lends some justification to the general era but still says the year is wrong. 07:17:53 <xiong> Hey, that reminds me: Was there ever any interest expressed in a nicer cargo chain map? 07:19:49 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:21:45 <andythenorth> dates are set for gameplay balance, with only some attendance paid to real life dates 07:22:34 *** Progman [~progman@p57A191BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:22:41 <andythenorth> if you wish to patch your own edition, you can see that dates in the code are relatively easy to change ;) 07:42:50 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 08:10:17 *** pjpe [ae5f3ed9@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 08:11:57 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-27-54.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 08:14:55 *** hbccbh [~hbc@116.27.170.108] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:15:10 *** hbccbh [~hbc@116.27.170.108] has joined #openttd 08:21:25 *** pjpe [ae5f3ed9@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 08:23:12 *** pjpe [ae5f3ed9@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [] 08:34:34 *** pjpe [ae5f3ed9@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 08:44:21 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 08:54:07 *** Firartix [~artixds@181.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 08:58:52 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-35-125.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 09:04:29 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-59-83.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:05:14 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-189-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 09:05:17 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 09:08:51 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-65-161.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 09:09:25 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.104.165] has joined #openttd 09:11:00 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-35-125.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:14:19 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 09:14:22 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 09:14:24 <Alberth> moin 09:16:17 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:17:51 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-44-165.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 09:20:19 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-189-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:22:20 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-79-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 09:22:23 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 09:28:34 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-44-165.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:43:21 <Rhamphoryncus> heh, oops! Replacing my single car PAX trams with double length articulated trams has turned my city into a solid wall of trams XD 09:48:44 <Alberth> your citizens will not complain that they cannot find a tram :) 09:50:28 <TWerkhoven> but how will the chickens cross the road now? 09:52:02 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 09:55:22 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 10:03:04 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-099-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 10:03:53 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 10:04:36 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 10:09:28 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-11-52.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120216100510]] 10:12:51 *** peteris [~peteris@78.84.97.170] has joined #openttd 10:17:30 *** pjpe [ae5f3ed9@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 10:22:46 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 10:28:00 *** flaa [~flaa@089-101-093077.ntlworld.ie] has joined #openttd 10:44:31 <Rhamphoryncus> The grannies will take their hand and lead them 10:46:58 <Terkhen> good morning 10:53:45 <Alberth> moin Terkhen 10:56:53 *** _maddy [~plaiho@182.21.240.77.static.louhi.net] has joined #openttd 10:59:27 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-179-105.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 11:14:50 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-099-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 11:15:36 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-099-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 11:20:33 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has joined #openttd 11:21:51 *** flaa [~flaa@089-101-093077.ntlworld.ie] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:24:38 <_maddy> have to say I have gotten to a fairly pleasant start with my AI 11:25:23 <_maddy> the framework seems pretty good, and Squirrel feels easy even though I have never used it before 11:25:42 <Yexo> good to hear :) 11:26:07 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 11:28:50 *** flaa [~flaa@089-101-093077.ntlworld.ie] has joined #openttd 11:29:55 *** morph` [~morph`@78.84.121.50] has joined #openttd 11:31:42 *** morph` [~morph`@78.84.121.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:15 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-179-105.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 11:39:34 *** rane [rane@theorycraft.org] has joined #openttd 11:39:58 <rane> hello, is it there cfg var for pausing a server if there are no clients? 11:40:40 <Alberth> should be 11:41:01 <rane> http://wiki.openttd.org/Openttd.cfg should it be here? 11:41:39 <Alberth> it should be in that file indeed. Whether it is also listed at the wiki, I don't know 11:42:42 <Eddi|zuHause> tried "min_active_clients" or something similar? 11:42:55 <rane> nope, lemme see 11:43:04 <rane> cool 11:43:12 <Alberth> just look in the file for a name that looks right to you 11:43:24 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f4340.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:44:01 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-213-34-232-41.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #openttd 11:44:26 <Alberth> hello Devedse, all the way from zeeland ! 11:45:16 <Eddi|zuHause> well,,. closer than new zeeland :p 11:45:25 <MNIM> depends, not to an aussie 11:46:03 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:50:14 <Devedse> Alberth, Hi :> 11:51:31 <TrueBrain> I am paulsanders, I am ill and would die as a result of cancer. I want to distribute my funds to charity 11:51:33 <TrueBrain> organizations in your country through you,please respond for details. 11:51:35 <TrueBrain> they are getting more and more rude 11:51:50 <TrueBrain> next email will be: if you dont reply I will hunt you down and kill you 11:52:41 <Alberth> prepare the Mains <-> UTP interface! 11:58:30 <_maddy> is there a way to remove all changes I've made up to a certain point in the past in AI programming? specially in Test mode 11:58:49 <Alberth> reload the map ? 11:59:01 <andythenorth> pinkle ponkle, I went to the zoo 11:59:08 <andythenorth> 'lo Pikka 11:59:14 <andythenorth> is it done yet? 11:59:17 <Alberth> 'lo andy 11:59:20 <Pikka> nope 11:59:33 <Pikka> bloody a-train, too hard a shape :D 11:59:35 <_maddy> Alberth: function? 12:00:02 <Yexo> _maddy: any functions you execute in test mode do not change any state in the game 12:00:18 <Yexo> you can do call functions over and over again without any real result 12:00:27 <Yexo> so there are no changes to revert 12:00:55 <_maddy> Yexo: right, but I need to reset the test mode back to original state sometimes 12:01:22 <_maddy> what happens if I create a new instance of AITestMode while already in test mode? 12:01:23 <Yexo> use the AIExecMode class for that, or let your AITestMode object go out of scope 12:01:48 <Yexo> AI*Mode instances create a stack, you can create as many of them as you want, the last one created is the one used. 12:01:50 <andythenorth> Pikka: is it not a eurostar shape with doors? 12:02:04 <Yexo> you have to make sure they are deleted in reverse order otherwise things will break very badly 12:03:34 <_maddy> so, if I have TestMode A first, then I create new instance and start TestMode B, make changes, after the B object is destroyed, is the state restored to that of A? 12:03:53 <Yexo> 'yes 12:04:56 <_maddy> ok, that makes sense and works perfectly for my purpose 12:05:55 <_maddy> to have outer test mode for the whole route, and within in I can compare different options in smaller scale (such as station orientation) in a new testmode 12:07:36 <Yexo> why would you use a separate test mode object for that? 12:07:50 <Yexo> testmode == testmode, there are no differences between two instances 12:08:34 <TrueBrain> there is also ... accountingmode? to track how much a scope costs 12:09:01 <Yexo> there is AIAccounting, but that's not a mode 12:09:19 <TrueBrain> its a scope ;) 12:09:48 <_maddy> hmm, ok, so if I want to test 2 things, I have to make a testmode instance, then switch back to exec mode, and again to testmode? 12:10:21 <Yexo> you make a testmode instance -> you're in test mode, you can now test as many things as you want 12:10:50 <_maddy> yes, but I need to reset the testmode to some previous state :) 12:10:59 <Yexo> test mode has no state 12:11:39 <Yexo> "create test mode object -> build station on tile 2, build depot on tile 2, build road on tile 2"; all those actions can return success within one test mode scope 12:12:37 <_maddy> oh...I thought it remembers the state, so if I build something on a tile in test mode, I can't build on the same tile, within the scope of that test mode 12:13:00 <Yexo> there is too much state involved in openttd, so that's not doable 12:14:56 <_maddy> that would have been nice to have, but I guess I will manage without it 12:19:04 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:22:48 * andythenorth wonders what the fastest way is to for gestalts to implement 'provides_filenames()' or 'provide_all_filenames()' or such 12:22:55 <andythenorth> probably nested 'for i in: ' loops 12:25:46 <Alberth> a recursive function, as the number of variables is variable 12:26:57 <_maddy> what does AITile::IsBuildableRectangle actually check when it returns true/false? 12:27:22 <Alberth> andythenorth: but you can write it on top of the functions get_variables() and get_values(), so no need to hide it in the gestalt, imho 12:27:29 <andythenorth> that's a function that calls itself while (some condition)? 12:28:14 <Alberth> yes, and for best result, the condition should become false at some point in the recursion :) 12:28:36 <Alberth> in this case, you'll run out of variables to iterate over 12:28:43 <Yexo> _maddy: it returns true if AITile::IsBuildable returns true for every tile 12:29:38 <Yexo> IsBuildAble returns true for empty tiles, for tree tiles, for coast tiles and for tiles with a single roadbit which is owned by either you or a town 12:30:08 <_maddy> right 12:38:08 *** Lurker2 [5222ef5a@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 12:38:51 *** Devedse_ [~Devedse@cable-125-94.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #openttd 12:38:58 *** Devedse_ [~Devedse@cable-125-94.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [] 12:41:56 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:45:26 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-213-34-232-41.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:11:15 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... anyone know a (very basic) sound editing program for linux? 13:11:22 <rane> audacity 13:11:25 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-37.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 13:11:36 <Pikka> that's what I said 13:11:44 * Pikka second audacity 13:12:30 <Eddi|zuHause> ok... *installing* 13:14:26 <andythenorth> audacity 13:14:31 <andythenorth> oh you said that 13:14:32 <andythenorth> :P 13:14:47 <Pikka> the only problem with audacity is the echoes 13:21:09 <Pikka> and re before andy, I haven't drawn a eurostar either :P 13:21:35 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:c5fa:8746:5bf0:b959] has joined #openttd 13:21:39 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:24:46 <andythenorth> you can draw one based on the Hitachi :) 13:25:03 <andythenorth> ever considered raiding BROS? :) 13:25:21 <Pikka> not in the slightest 13:44:31 <__ln__> http://www.drehscheibe-foren.de/foren/read.php?4,5276001 13:47:44 <andythenorth> why does printing the output from a generator change the result of other calls to the generator? 13:48:13 <Eddi|zuHause> uninitialized variables? 13:48:18 <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1211/ 13:48:37 <andythenorth> if I remove the first 'for sx, sy, scol' etc, and the print, this code fails 13:49:37 <Eddi|zuHause> need "bigger picture" 13:50:20 <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1212/ 13:50:35 <andythenorth> I could paste the whole call chain, but it's probably more than you want to look at[ 13:50:50 <andythenorth> maybe I should learn to use pdb instead of printing out vars to debug failures 13:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> no, mostly the get_recolouring function 13:51:38 <Alberth> andythenorth: using dicts or sets? 13:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you print "dcol" while you loop over "scol" 13:52:28 <Alberth> dict key order changes between run 13:52:34 <Alberth> *runs 13:52:46 <andythenorth> oops 13:53:10 <andythenorth> dcol was a mistake :P but the issue persists 13:53:47 <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1213/ 13:53:56 <andythenorth> I need to learn pdb anyway sometime 13:54:01 <andythenorth> might as well be today 13:55:25 *** flaa [~flaa@089-101-093077.ntlworld.ie] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:55:42 <andythenorth> my error is that I'm trying to set values for pixels with indexes > image width or image height 13:55:55 <andythenorth> but I can't get the values of those indexes to figure out what I've done wrong :P 13:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> x+dx may get out of range? 13:57:13 <Alberth> add an assert just before putting the pixel 13:58:30 <Eddi|zuHause> also, what happens if you move the print to the second loop, and remove the first loop? 13:58:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: same issue 13:59:04 <andythenorth> afaict in that case, using sx, sy, scol will cause another set of values to be yielded by generator? 13:59:07 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you turn the second loop into a print as well 13:59:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and compare the output? 13:59:52 <andythenorth> good idea 13:59:55 <andythenorth> first I have to change nappies 14:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and if printing "dcol" works while you're looping over "scol", then you've got a variable scope fault... 14:01:00 <andythenorth> indeed :) 14:03:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that was the point where i split my generator into functions and modules 14:04:08 <Eddi|zuHause> makes it less likely that spurious temp variables live on for too long 14:05:20 <andythenorth> hmm 14:05:21 <andythenorth> solved 14:05:33 <andythenorth> +ve offset instead of -ve 14:05:46 * andythenorth didn't learn pdb though :( 14:06:39 * Alberth doesn't know pdb either :) 14:07:51 <Eddi|zuHause> my usual use of pdb is "oh i have an exception" - "hmm.. traceback alone is inconclusive" - "python -i script.py" - "import pdb; pdb.pm()" - "up/down/p <expression>" 14:08:34 <Eddi|zuHause> haven't done "live" debugging yet 14:11:07 <andythenorth> kaboom 14:11:22 * andythenorth now has load sprites comped onto vehicles, in a useful way 14:12:03 <andythenorth> where 'useful' means there are spritesheets of loads, which are opened, cropped, and applied to the vehicle 14:12:30 <andythenorth> cargo spritesheets can be generated...or hand drawn, for cases where it's easier to just draw 14:26:47 *** Lurker2 [5222ef5a@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 14:34:39 <Alberth> is it still quicker than draw by hand (starting when you first opened the text-editor for this project)? 14:35:17 <_maddy> trying to use the rail pathfinder in my AI, it never returns from the FindPath function 14:35:42 <Yexo> how long did you run the test? 14:35:56 <Yexo> and what is the distance (in tiles) between the endpoints of the route? 14:36:02 <Yexo> are you sure there even is a valid pad? 14:37:03 <_maddy> it's been running few minutes, not sure the arguments are valid (how to check?), the distance is less than 500 tiles 14:37:14 <Yexo> 500 tiles is very long 14:37:22 <Yexo> try to limit the route to less than 200 tiles 14:38:00 <Yexo> you can tune some of the parameters to increase performance (but decrease the quality) 14:41:22 <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> is it still quicker than draw by hand (starting when you first opened the text-editor for this project)? <-- such generalizations take some time to amortize 14:41:51 <_maddy> Yexo: it's not working 14:42:31 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I know :) 14:42:33 <_maddy> nevermind, seems it's actually just really slow 14:42:57 <Alberth> _maddy: the true optimal path takes a lot of time 14:44:04 <_maddy> Alberth: yeah, when in reality I probably wouldn't need the optimal path, but just a path that is "good enough" 14:45:17 <Yexo> _maddy: try modifying the Estimate() function to return the estimated result times 1.1 or so 14:45:57 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 14:45:57 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 14:46:01 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 14:47:16 <_maddy> Yexo: in the ai lib? 14:47:33 <Yexo> you can override that function from your AI code 14:47:42 <Yexo> you can see in the forums how to do that 14:50:34 <Yexo> see http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=765541#p765541 for example 14:51:30 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-099-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:59:06 <_maddy> yeah, now it's faster 15:11:23 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 15:12:47 <_maddy> still pretty slow tho :) 15:20:04 *** hbccbh [~hbc@116.27.170.108] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:20:07 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 15:21:40 <_maddy> might try to make my own pathfinder later which is simpler, at least I got as far as to build stations and connect them now 15:24:34 *** George|2 [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 15:24:34 *** George is now known as Guest5870 15:24:34 *** George|2 is now known as George 15:40:03 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 15:40:20 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:40:42 <frosch123> wow, youtube's error 500 page is cool 15:41:01 <frosch123> i wonder whether it really contains information, or whether it is just some nerdy trolling :) 15:41:24 <frosch123> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1214/ 15:43:05 <Eddi|zuHause> tried to un-base64 it? 15:45:17 <Eddi|zuHause> hm no, that doesn't seem to be it 15:46:35 *** Chris_Booth[ph] [~chrisboot@host86-158-149-85.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 15:47:51 <frosch123> yeah, looks like it uses 64 characters 15:48:02 <frosch123> 26 lowercase, 26 uppercase, 10 digits, - and _ 15:48:27 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-179-105.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 15:48:47 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 15:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> but "base64 -d" says it's garbage 15:50:48 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-158-149-85.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 15:51:09 <valhallasw> maybe it has been rot13'ed 15:51:28 <valhallasw> or <random other method to obfuscate text> 15:52:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i once heard that google puts in riddles like this to find new employees :) 15:52:27 <valhallasw> http://www.cambus.net/decoding-youtube-http-error-500-message/ 15:53:11 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, so sed-ing stuff will make it work 15:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause> so why has nobody patched base64 for that then? 15:58:01 <Eddi|zuHause> output looks like random data, though 15:58:21 *** Keyboard_Warrior [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 16:05:43 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:07:12 *** _maddy [~plaiho@182.21.240.77.static.louhi.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:10:34 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-099-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 16:11:40 *** Chris_Booth[ph] [~chrisboot@host86-158-149-85.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi] 16:13:32 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 16:13:46 <andythenorth> Alberth: for the amount of time I've actually spent coding, pixa is much faster so far 16:13:54 <andythenorth> and will allow a much better set 16:14:03 <andythenorth> it would have been boring to carry every cargo in box trailers :P 16:18:33 <frosch123> as soon as ai build airports, they lose :p 16:19:11 <Pikka> hooray for infrastructure maintenance costs :P 16:20:41 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-099-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20:50 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-62-83.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 16:21:01 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-099-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 16:21:22 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:21:56 *** Keyboard_Warrior [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:22:06 <frosch123> 8000 £ to build a small airport 60000/year to keep it :) 16:22:57 <andythenorth> sounds plausible 16:24:41 <frosch123> ouch, now they ask me to take over the company for 100000 :p 16:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: is there even an API to query the maintenance cost? 16:24:50 <frosch123> i think it is not even worth 0 16:25:12 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no idea, but this ai is certainly older than infrastructure cost 16:26:08 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-79-127.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:26:33 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, there is 16:26:42 <frosch123> AIAirport::GetMaintenanceCostFactor 16:27:27 <frosch123> problem is that av8 is no balanced for that. 16:27:45 <frosch123> the ai had only a signle plane, and it was not even making a profit 16:28:17 <Pikka> frosch123: next version of av8 has balanced maintenance costs for the airports 16:28:28 <frosch123> i read that :) 16:28:31 <Pikka> (optional via parameter) 16:28:35 <Pikka> it works much better now 16:29:54 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 16:35:29 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-099-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:37:08 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:00:27 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03:48 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-099-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 17:08:11 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 17:08:24 * andythenorth wonders what happens when one module calls another which calls first module again :P 17:08:50 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09:13 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 17:09:25 <Eddi|zuHause> a module is only loaded once, the other imports are just references 17:10:56 <andythenorth> a better question would be: recursive functions, where no break or end condition is reached 17:11:13 <SpComb> andythenorth: depending on how the modules reference eachother, it may or may not work 17:11:23 <SpComb> the import will get an incomplete modeule 17:11:41 <SpComb> if you're really careful it might kinda work, but 17:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it throws an exception after some recursion depth 17:12:30 <SpComb> python has a stack limit 17:12:55 * andythenorth must sound like a live edition of 'programming for dummies' :P 17:13:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in theoretical computer science, a "recursive" function is one that always terminates 17:13:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: everything else is called "partial recursive" 17:14:20 <Chris_Booth> programming for dummies is a great book 17:14:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then it usually goes on about how the function to determine whether a function is recursive is not recursive 17:15:32 <andythenorth> :) 17:16:46 <andythenorth> I can't decide whether to automate dep checking (building one png requires another), or just throw errors and leave it to the user to figure out :P 17:16:56 <andythenorth> which do you think is easier? 17:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: throw an error, and let the makefile handle the dependencies 17:17:57 <andythenorth> not sure if I'll have a makefile or not 17:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: possibly make a (fast!) mode that just lists the dependencies without calculating the images 17:18:12 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: +1 to fast mode 17:18:14 <andythenorth> -M or such 17:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: let the user figure out the makefile 17:18:49 <andythenorth> maybe it's time to move this to the pixa repo 17:18:52 <andythenorth> and let others loose on it 17:18:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: nml's -M mode is totally _not_ fast 17:19:07 <andythenorth> pixa is lacking docs right now 17:19:30 <Rubidium> talking about dummy: http://www.toversleutel.nl/images/productimages/smaller/fruitella%20dummy%201.jpg which is then easily linked back to pixa via http://kidslog.nl/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/fruitpixels.jpg ;) 17:19:36 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: in a typical context, I think you'd want your set generator to create the filenames anyway 17:19:46 <andythenorth> the set is canonical afaict 17:20:11 <andythenorth> only the newgrf code knows if a png is required or not 17:21:39 <andythenorth> -M is slow for nmlc? let's see 17:23:29 <andythenorth> hmm 17:23:34 * andythenorth can't figure out how to use it 17:28:41 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 17:32:58 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.186.79] has joined #openttd 17:33:54 *** lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:36:06 *** welshdragon [~mark-oftc@welshdragon.zernebok.net] has left #openttd [] 17:36:25 <andythenorth> nmlc -M --MF=foo.txt bandit.nml 17:36:30 <andythenorth> results in an empty foo.txt 17:37:38 *** Nat_aS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:40:05 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6CB33.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:42:25 *** Nat_aS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has joined #openttd 17:43:41 <andythenorth> hmm 17:43:45 <andythenorth> -MT works 17:43:53 <andythenorth> so what's --MF for then? 17:44:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 4s for BANDIT with -M 17:44:35 <andythenorth> how long do you get with CETS? 17:54:54 *** Maarten [~dutchusa@99-73-209-18.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:56:25 *** Maarten [~dutchusa@99-73-209-18.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 18:01:30 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-158-149-85.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120305181207]] 18:02:09 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 18:02:24 *** collinp [~collin@h73.133.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #openttd 18:04:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something around 2 minutes 18:05:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: give me 2 mins more, I have something dumb 18:05:07 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d822ce2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1000207#p1000207 <- the two linked revisions give some numbers 18:06:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i might move the template magic into the generator script, that may speed up stuff 18:06:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: stupidest thing ever: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1215/ 18:06:49 <andythenorth> real 0m0.053s 18:09:04 <andythenorth> brb 18:09:15 <Eddi|zuHause> well, could make a proper parser, or a grfcodec -M patch instead 18:10:00 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-099-095.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:13:00 *** morph` [~morph`@78.84.121.50] has joined #openttd 18:13:35 <morph`> Why is my server without any NewGRFs more popular than the one with NewGRFs? NoGrf = constatly 5+ players, NewGrf = 0/10 18:13:37 <morph`> :( 18:14:03 <Rubidium> laziness 18:16:54 <Eddi|zuHause> # this is the night when we call for the moon 18:16:55 <Eddi|zuHause> # this will lead into timeless space 18:16:57 <Eddi|zuHause> # take a ride to a place without gravity 18:16:58 <Eddi|zuHause> # all we do need for this trip is to just let go 18:17:00 <Eddi|zuHause> # of all the logic - let's go 18:23:56 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-37.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 18:24:06 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 18:24:33 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:26:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: patching grfcodec - beyond me... 18:26:20 <andythenorth> proper parser - I'd like to learn that... 18:27:44 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-65-161.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 10.0.2/20120215223356]] 18:27:45 <Eddi|zuHause> need to learn grammar. and how to think in trees :) 18:32:33 <NGC3982> hm 18:33:09 <NGC3982> we have this transfer system: wheat is being loaded with a huge boat from a station. the boat takes a long ride to a transfer train station. trains take the goods to the proper industry. 18:33:40 <NGC3982> is there any way for me to make the trains stay in the depot until the boat has loaded the goods onto the transfer train station? 18:33:52 <Eddi|zuHause> timetable? 18:34:00 <andythenorth> full load? 18:34:19 <NGC3982> ive been looking at making a timetable, but the time it takes for the boat to load is not constant. 18:34:36 <NGC3982> and really, it doesnt ever take the same route (wich makes it take different time to get to the transfer station) 18:34:45 <Eddi|zuHause> make the boat not full load, but take anything it can get within a fixed time? 18:34:58 <Eddi|zuHause> use YAPF for ships 18:35:21 <NGC3982> YAPF is travel alghoritms, right? 18:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 18:35:53 <NGC3982> would be neat to use "if <station> = visited" 18:35:53 <NGC3982> <3. 18:36:11 <NGC3982> a bit too easy, perhaps. 18:37:57 <andythenorth> build an escape depot before the station, block the station with a single train? 18:40:30 <xiong> NGC3982, your situation is conventional and common. Your requirement doesn't make much sense. 18:41:32 <xiong> A vehicle -- any vehicle -- drops cargo -- any cargo -- at a station -- any station. Another vehicle picks it up, boom. 18:42:22 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 18:42:43 <xiong> The dropping vehicle is ordered to 'transfer and leave empty'; the pickup vehicle to 'full load'. There are fine distinctions between 'any' and 'all'. 18:44:22 <xiong> The pickup vehicle does not wait in depot; it waits in station, so it can pick up. I can think of a few reasons why you might not want a vehicle in station for a long time; but you should plan to have some wait. 18:45:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24025 /trunk/src/lang/ (14 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) 18:45:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:45:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: basque - 14 changes by HerrBasque 18:45:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 15 changes by arnau 18:45:28 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium 18:45:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx 18:45:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by Jogio 18:47:21 <xiong> I build intermodal stations with plenty of platforms since I anticipate that some will be tied up by waiting trains. Docks are less of an issue since multiple ships appear willing to overlap. With trucks, I tend not to 'full load' at all; I let them circulate merrily, empty or not, and just add more of them to the loop. 18:48:21 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:49:04 <xiong> If you think about it, you must solve the waiting-for-cargo problem anyway, since primary industries produce it slowly and over a period of time. You need to be there in station picking it up, and waiting to pick it up, continuously -- for best performance. 18:51:08 <xiong> An approach used by the somewhat cautious is *not* to order 'full load' but just run the vehicle through station and pick up what it can; then conditional-jump on percentage of load, going right back to the same station. You can put a maintain-at-depot order in that loop. 18:52:37 <xiong> Another tactic is the *exit depot*. Full-load the vehicle and order it, always, to depot as it exits the transfer station, hoping for a smooth ride to the final destination. 18:53:09 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 18:54:14 *** Guest5870 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:55:27 <morph`> Couldn't you press left mouse on the "eye-icon" in train's window to follow the train movement ? 18:55:43 <Nat_aS> it's ctrl click 18:55:55 <morph`> Nice, thanks :) 18:55:57 <morph`> Missed that 18:56:05 <Nat_aS> took me TOO LONG to find that 18:56:09 <Nat_aS> also it has to be medium zoom 18:56:20 <Nat_aS> Hey I have a question, why can't you zoom out farther? 18:56:42 <Nat_aS> playing really huge maps seems difficult when you can't zoom out all the way. 18:58:23 <Alberth> the smallmap gives you an overview 18:59:16 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:04:09 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:06:53 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 19:06:53 *** Firartix [~artixds@181.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:07:19 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 19:09:52 <Nat_aS> even that's not as good as being able to zoom out and see how things look from up high 19:10:03 <Nat_aS> also i think some maps are even too big for the smalmap 19:10:15 <SpComb> zooming out is expensive 19:10:15 <Nat_aS> the wonders of modern memory sizes 19:10:49 <Alberth> in CPU :) 19:10:58 <Alberth> single-core ;) 19:11:43 <Nat_aS> it just seems kind of unfair to scale one element of the game (Max map size) to accommodate modern hardware. but not others (Max zoom level) 19:11:47 <Alberth> and we need a 10,000 sprites for one extra zoom-level 19:12:16 <Nat_aS> but then aggain some things scaler easier than others 19:12:30 <Nat_aS> maybe veichiles would vanish at higher zooms? 19:12:37 <Nat_aS> or be replaced by symbols? 19:13:18 <Nat_aS> kind of like what supreme commander does, when you zoom all the way out, it basicly just becomes a large map. 19:13:26 <NGC3982> xiong: i see. 19:13:33 <NGC3982> xiong: thank you for the input. 19:13:48 <xiong> Hope I helped, NGC3982. 19:15:24 <xiong> Nat_aS, That's the smallmap. Yes, the smallmap could be bigger. 19:16:15 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-37.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 19:17:45 <Nat_aS> well I'm saying not only should the smallmap be bigger, you should be able to zoom the regular map out into the smallmap 19:17:48 <Nat_aS> for easier viewing 19:17:59 <Nat_aS> and eyecandy 19:18:59 <Nat_aS> to save CPU, anything that moves would be removed at the higher zoom levels, but you would still be able to see the terrain instead of just a flat noncolored map 19:19:13 <SpComb> iirc there's a patch for that 19:19:18 <Alberth> there is 19:19:19 <Nat_aS> oh? 19:19:31 <Nat_aS> is it compatible with the cargodist patch? 19:19:41 <Nat_aS> how do you apply patches anyways? I just download the completed versions 19:19:50 <SpComb> it's difficult 19:20:17 <SpComb> as a user, you should just concentrate on pressuring patch devs and trunk devs to work together :) 19:20:27 <Nat_aS> lol 19:20:34 <Alberth> http://wiki.openttd.org/Patches 19:20:40 <Nat_aS> we need an interface like the newgrif loader for patches 19:20:47 <Nat_aS> so we can just toggle them like newgrifs 19:20:58 <Nat_aS> (Even more ways for users to horribly corrupt there save files) 19:21:06 <Nat_aS> (just what we need) 19:21:12 <Alberth> install a compiler, and a copy of the repo, and you can build them easily 19:21:23 <SpComb> patches are for developers, not users 19:21:28 <SpComb> and patchpacks are forks 19:21:34 <SpComb> and forks are death! 19:21:36 <Nat_aS> Progamer easy or user easy? 19:21:50 <Nat_aS> because these are different things :P 19:21:59 <Alberth> depends on your definition of programmer :) 19:23:08 <Alberth> if you patch against the revision the patch was created for, and you don't try combining them, compiling is pretty much straight forward, 19:23:17 *** Firartix [~artixds@181.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 19:24:10 <Nat_aS> put things in the same folder and run the compiler? 19:24:19 * Nat_aS is just guessing, he's never done anything like this 19:24:34 <Alberth> almost; you 'apply' the patch to the source code. 19:24:46 <Alberth> a patch is a list of instructions how to change the code 19:25:02 * Nat_aS is spoiled by windows and Ubuntu, executable installers and package loaders 19:25:12 <Nat_aS> Although I have applied mods to STALKER by hand 19:25:25 <__ln__> https://plus.google.com/109626239063244808805/posts/LVWh4tfCdcp (warning: canada) 19:25:28 <Nat_aS> copying and pasting things into the games directory 19:25:42 <Alberth> yeah, most users are clueless beyond downloading & installing :( 19:26:04 <Nat_aS> Package loaders are probably the best idea ever in terms of user friendlyness 19:26:12 <Nat_aS> and preventing users from messing up 19:26:20 <Alberth> __ln__: it's also from plus.google; does not look good to me :) 19:26:48 <Nat_aS> but it's yet another layer between the user and the computer. 19:26:48 <Alberth> Nat_aS: too bad windows doesn't have them for the entire system 19:27:02 <valhallasw> https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-agr3P6dfjzU/T1yy7chu0gI/AAAAAAAAfeE/xtMIlJHwXLw/s471/%2BSalah+Seddik4.jpg direct url for __ln__s post 19:27:16 <Nat_aS> so a new generation of computer users who grew up using tablets instead of PCs might be even more clueless compaired to people who lived in the 90s 19:27:24 <valhallasw> although you won't dodge the cookies ;-) 19:27:36 <Nat_aS> anyways, Back to trains 19:27:42 <Nat_aS> that picture makes me kind of sad 19:27:42 <Alberth> Nat_aS: oh definitely 19:28:29 <Nat_aS> because in games like OTTD and simutrans it's hard to ever get enough finished goods to make giant container trains 19:29:14 <Nat_aS> container cars have a higher capacity than raw materials cars, and there will always be more raw materials being moved than finished goods in this kind of simulation 19:29:34 <Nat_aS> so mile long trains of doublestack container cars are not worth it 19:29:35 <Nat_aS> ;_; 19:31:05 <Alberth> make different industries ;) 19:31:32 <andythenorth> so how do I package this pixa thing? 19:31:41 <andythenorth> installable python module -> pypi? 19:32:18 <Nat_aS> Hmm, perhaps the game ough to be adjusted so that goods are less dense cargo wise? 19:32:41 <Alberth> distutils was the standard way, don't know what they have nowadays; have a look in the library reference 19:32:50 <Nat_aS> lots of them are produced, and they take up lots of room, but weigh less than raw materials. 19:32:55 <Nat_aS> and also pay less 19:32:58 <andythenorth> is an installable module wise? 19:33:08 <Nat_aS> so you need large trains to ship them effectively. 19:33:16 <andythenorth> how would it be updated? how would sample project(s) be distributed? 19:33:37 <Alberth> only the fixed part should be installed imho 19:33:59 *** pjpe [ae5f3ed9@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 19:34:13 <Alberth> the other stuff can be added in the package but not installed, or just copied to some 'example'-like directory perhaps 19:34:22 <andythenorth> it's very convenient to be able to 'hg pull -u' nml 19:34:31 <andythenorth> and to be able to revert to previous versions 19:34:37 * Alberth nods 19:35:12 <Alberth> I tend to just work from trunk versions for openttd-related software 19:35:31 <andythenorth> I don't understand how a newgrf project could include something from another hg repo 19:35:38 <andythenorth> svn uses externals for that? 19:35:56 <Alberth> hg has subrepo iirc 19:36:13 <andythenorth> if it was a newgrf project using buildout, it would just rebuildout 19:36:20 <Alberth> but I only used it for vcs-ing patches of an mq and it was highly confusing 19:36:59 *** morph` [~morph`@78.84.121.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:37:06 <andythenorth> a newgrf project could add pixa's location to the search path? 19:37:16 <andythenorth> and maintain, e.g. one level up the directory tree? 19:37:19 <Alberth> I would just soft-link the projects probably 19:37:53 <Alberth> if it is in the search path, the location is not relevant 19:38:08 <andythenorth> ok 19:38:35 <Alberth> that's why it's in the search path ;) 19:38:47 <andythenorth> code is currently in BANDIT repo. Should I just add to pixa repo? Or do I need to do a hg import somehow? 19:39:34 <Alberth> no idea, really 19:39:52 <andythenorth> duck tape says copy it in 19:40:00 <andythenorth> as I have no idea how to import 19:40:08 <andythenorth> and I don't find the history useful at this stage 19:40:14 <Alberth> you may be able to copy history for some subset of files, but whether is really possible, or how to do it then, no clue whatsoever 19:41:19 * Alberth would just copy the file as-is 19:41:35 <Alberth> and not bother about history :) 19:41:45 <Alberth> it's overrated anyway :p 19:51:23 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-118-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:51:23 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:52:38 <Nat_aS> too bad the manual industry newgirf is not compatible with anything 19:53:06 <Nat_aS> I kind of need it to be always on because I play in scenarios with specific industries and it sucks when they just disafuckingpear. 19:53:30 <Nat_aS> but I'd love to be able to have new industries and things 19:55:13 <Alberth> play with FIRS, it has a 'do not close industries' setting 19:55:35 <Alberth> and opengfx+industries may also have it, don't know 19:55:50 <andythenorth> I think ECS may have that setting too 19:56:07 <andythenorth> hmm 19:56:13 <andythenorth> pixa is like...one file :P 19:56:18 <andythenorth> and a GPL notice 19:56:18 <Nat_aS> oh it does? 19:56:35 <Alberth> however, the best way to get new things is to let unused industries close; growth is very slow 19:56:38 <Nat_aS> I really wish "Do not close industries" could be a settings switch. 19:56:52 <Alberth> openttd has no control over closure 19:57:04 <Nat_aS> well in a secnerio, I don't want new industries forming or old ones vanishing 19:57:39 <andythenorth> Nat_aS: a setting is never gonna happen, on the basis that one of the newgrf industry developers (all 4 of them) might get their underpants twisted 19:57:51 <andythenorth> 'omg you broke the newgrf spec' 19:57:58 <andythenorth> yeah, ok :P 19:58:38 <Alberth> nah, we fixed the spec :D 19:58:48 <Nat_aS> "Go update your code then" :P 19:59:13 <Nat_aS> in minecraft, all the mods get broken with each new update 19:59:17 <Nat_aS> reguardless of what changes 19:59:25 <Nat_aS> and they have to be rebuilt each time 19:59:39 * andythenorth sees no obvious reason why 'industries don't close' is not a setting 19:59:39 <Nat_aS> (which sucks because the updates almost never add anything of value compaired to the mods) 19:59:47 <andythenorth> so many other apparently pointless things are settings 19:59:54 <andythenorth> and this one causes a lot of support requests 20:00:07 <andythenorth> 'write your own grf' is not a valid answer 20:00:20 <Alberth> the only way to do it I think is by adding a flag 'this industry has no interest in controlling closure' 20:00:31 <andythenorth> simply refuse to handle closure 20:00:37 <andythenorth> I could look up the code :P 20:01:04 <Alberth> oh, the industry has that option already ? 20:01:15 * andythenorth adventures in industry_cmd.cpp again 20:01:22 <andythenorth> my most favouritest openttd file :P 20:01:40 <Alberth> one of the more readable ones :p 20:02:14 <andythenorth> afaict, just extend the conditions for CheckIndustryCloseDownProtection 20:02:22 <andythenorth> to check a setting 20:02:40 <andythenorth> the problem with industry code is that it's squirrely 20:02:51 <andythenorth> and has many conditions around economy, industry type, newgrf :P 20:02:53 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-65-161.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 20:02:59 <Pikka> they're waiting for you, Gordon 20:03:01 <Nat_aS> i can understand things like prices being a newgrif, but industry closure should be a setting 20:03:11 <Pikka> in the tesssssssst chamberrrrrr 20:03:17 <Pikka> possibly, Nat_aS 20:03:45 <Pikka> but closure can be part of a more complex behaviour 20:04:06 <Alberth> Nat_aS: it's mostly historical, I think. In TTDP it is sort of logical to move it to NewGRF 20:04:11 <andythenorth> L2593 20:04:21 <andythenorth> would seem the most relevant here 20:04:50 <Nat_aS> well it could be controlled by both 20:04:55 <Alberth> Pikka: unfortunately, it interferes with global control of industries in the world 20:05:01 <Nat_aS> like by default it's a setting, but newgrifs could over-ride it 20:05:22 <andythenorth> no no that would be bloody awful 20:05:45 <Pikka> what's so good about global control of industries in the world again? 20:05:48 <andythenorth> already you're over-riding the newgrf closure, now you want the newgrf to be able to over-ride the over-ride 20:05:52 <andythenorth> 'please close' 20:05:54 <andythenorth> 'no' 20:05:57 <andythenorth> 'please close, really' 20:05:59 <andythenorth> 'oh, ok' 20:06:01 <andythenorth> :P 20:07:14 <Alberth> Pikka: the game has an overview of what industries live at the entire world; it can open new ones or close unused / obsolete ones. 20:07:56 <Pikka> but what defines "unused / obsolete" if not the grf? 20:07:57 <Alberth> an industry does not have that overview 20:08:37 <Alberth> an industry does not know whether it is the last one, or one of 500 20:08:52 <Pikka> I'm pretty sure it does 20:09:00 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-158-137.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd 20:09:12 <Pikka> 67 Supported by OpenTTD Supported by TTDPatch Count of industry, distance of closest instance 20:09:26 <andythenorth> tried that 20:09:53 <andythenorth> can't remember why it sucked 20:10:04 <Alberth> does it take map size into accont? 20:10:34 <Alberth> does it take next / previous industries into account? 20:10:41 <Alberth> (in the chain) 20:11:01 <Pikka> it can do, it's count of any given industry 20:11:08 <Pikka> not necessarily this one 20:11:16 <Alberth> nice 20:11:33 <Nat_aS> andythenorth, my idea is that most newgrifs would not specify closure, and that the game would, BUT if the newgtif did specify closure, it would overide the game. 20:11:44 <andythenorth> Nat_aS: that's silly 20:12:11 <andythenorth> what problem are you trying to solve? :) 20:12:33 <Nat_aS> I am trying to solve being stuck with the manual industries newgrif which is compatible with nothing 20:12:46 <andythenorth> why are you stuck with that? 20:12:53 <Nat_aS> although you said other industry grifs have that option so i should try it 20:13:11 <Alberth> andythenorth: due to not reading the manual ;) 20:13:56 <frosch123> the problem with industry closure is, that it is tied to production changes (for primary industries) 20:13:59 <Alberth> Nat_aS: btw it's NewGRF, there is no "i" in it 20:14:21 * Nat_aS pronounces it Grif as in the name 20:14:46 <andythenorth> I can't remember why it sucked, but when we tried solving this for FIRS, and running long headless test games logging stats, we found that industries can't really work for this 20:14:48 <andythenorth> ha 20:14:50 <andythenorth> I remember 20:16:01 <andythenorth> Pikka: so assuming you want to prevent the mass extinction of industries (I do).... 20:16:19 <andythenorth> it seems smart to say, check var 67 every so often and store it persistently 20:16:27 <andythenorth> then check the count when you're thinking of closing 20:16:43 <andythenorth> if the count hasn't changed for (some time), ok, close 20:16:46 <andythenorth> no mass die off? 20:17:11 <andythenorth> unfortunate problem: multiple industries of type x have a habit of closing in the same month :P 20:17:21 <Pikka> yes, well 20:17:26 <andythenorth> on larger maps, the same mass die off happens 20:17:33 <andythenorth> we logged it for a bit 20:17:33 <Pikka> that seems to be a problem with your implementation rather than the concept :P 20:17:59 <andythenorth> it was better than default behaviour, but could still be pathologically stupid some months 20:18:10 <andythenorth> if you can solve it, I'll steal it :P 20:18:16 <Pikka> lol okay 20:18:31 <andythenorth> I tried random offsets, referencing the town id, tricks with map x, y 20:18:38 <andythenorth> it was all blearch 20:18:38 <Pikka> I don't think I've even touched secondary industry closures yet though 20:18:50 <Alberth> Pikka: the concept by andy is flawed I think, in the sense that you just delay closing rounds by (some time) 20:19:04 <Pikka> tbh I only play small-normal maps so it's not an effect I've noticed much 20:19:43 <andythenorth> I spent a couple of weekends on it, concluded you need a global overview 20:19:50 <andythenorth> or change industry spec 20:19:54 <andythenorth> or newgrf-global storage 20:20:05 <andythenorth> remind me, what's so evil about newgrf global storage? 20:22:22 <Eddi|zuHause> [GRFCODEC] cets.grf 20:22:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Error: Insufficient meta-data. 20:22:25 <Eddi|zuHause> While reading sprite:38 20:22:26 <Eddi|zuHause> wtf? 20:22:28 *** pjpe [ae5f3ed9@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 20:22:52 <Pikka> you broke it, Eddi|zuHause 20:23:41 <Eddi|zuHause> ah i see... i need to update grfcodec to grfv2 20:25:37 <Eddi|zuHause> works (tm) 20:27:09 <andythenorth> \o/ 20:28:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but why does grfcodec not throw up when it reads "info version 32"? 20:29:19 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:29:37 *** pjpe [ae5f3ed9@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 20:30:50 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-37.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:36:07 <Alberth> it does not want to make your new carpet dirty ? 20:36:42 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-37.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 20:50:14 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@exit1.ipredator.se] has joined #openttd 21:02:22 *** germanplayer [54bd32a7@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 21:02:33 <germanplayer> guten abend 21:03:15 <germanplayer> good evening 21:03:17 <andythenorth> how do I tell python to search further up the directory tree? 21:03:30 <SpComb> andythenorth: PYTHONPATH=... python ... 21:03:35 <andythenorth> do I need to use an abs path, rather than basing on os.curdir? 21:03:52 <andythenorth> [this is for module import] 21:03:56 <Eddi|zuHause> it should work to put ".." into the path 21:04:00 <germanplayer> can someone help me? 21:05:03 <germanplayer> irgentwer aus der deutsch spricht? 21:05:25 <Yexo> germanplayer: this channel is english-only. We can only help you if you actually ask a question 21:05:27 <__ln__> ^ is that grammatical? 21:05:38 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: no 21:05:38 <Yexo> there is a german forum at tt-ms.de 21:05:39 <frosch123> __ln__: nope :p 21:05:53 <__ln__> thought so, it looked so weird 21:06:26 *** germanplayer [54bd32a7@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [] 21:07:22 * andythenorth is doing something probably stupid 21:07:45 <andythenorth> so a newgrf project (e.g. BANDIT) would need a way to add pixa to the python search path 21:07:54 <andythenorth> pixa being a hg checkout somewhere 21:08:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no. pixa would be installed to site-packages 21:08:13 <andythenorth> and the location will vary depending on how the user has things setup 21:08:20 <frosch123> is it intentional that pixa looks like pikka ? 21:08:24 <andythenorth> nope 21:08:38 <andythenorth> I think it was intentional by Rubidium to cause false highlights for pixa though :) 21:08:42 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ? 21:08:43 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: we also have a guy named Pixa here :) 21:09:09 <frosch123> yeah, but likely he disabled highlights or put andy on ignore :p 21:09:10 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so it would be installed to system python? 21:09:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: pixa will be installed properly. then it's in the python path 21:09:27 <andythenorth> so how is it updated then? 21:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause> by installing a new version 21:09:39 <andythenorth> I need to package it with Distribute or such? 21:09:58 <Eddi|zuHause> with a setup.py 21:10:03 <Eddi|zuHause> or something 21:10:04 <andythenorth> why don't we install nml this way? 21:10:19 <Eddi|zuHause> no nml doesn't want to be used as module 21:10:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a standalone tool 21:10:26 <frosch123> you should have called it pyxa 21:10:32 <andythenorth> frosch123: too late :) 21:10:51 * andythenorth is so not used to spewing things all over system python 21:10:52 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-120-199.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #openttd 21:10:55 <andythenorth> but doesn't know how to avoid it 21:11:00 <frosch123> hmm, i think i was already too late the last time a project was named 21:11:27 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it's karma. for always leaving too early for anyone to reply :p 21:12:59 *** germanplayer1 [54bd32a7@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 21:13:28 <andythenorth> pixa is here if anyone wants to package it :P 21:13:28 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/pixa/repository 21:13:39 <germanplayer1> someone from germany here 21:14:03 <SpComb> andythenorth: `mkdir pixa; mv *.py pixa` 21:14:17 <SpComb> andythenorth: then read http://guide.python-distribute.org/ 21:14:50 <SpComb> and/or http://docs.python.org/distutils/introduction.html 21:15:46 <germanplayer1> :( 21:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "from distutils.core import setup" or something 21:16:42 <andythenorth> SpComb: thanks 21:16:45 <SpComb> you can't have an __init__.py in a hg repo root, it has to be in a directory, and then that directory has to be in the VCS 21:16:55 <SpComb> for the directory is an important part of it being a package 21:17:00 <SpComb> as opposed to two random .py modules 21:17:16 <FLHerne> 21:07: Yexo: there is a german forum at tt-ms.de 21:17:57 <andythenorth> SpComb: k 21:18:24 *** germanplayer1 [54bd32a7@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 21:18:27 * SpComb learned that bit the hard way 21:18:51 *** pjpe [ae5f3ed9@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 21:18:54 <frosch123> that there is a german forum? 21:19:03 <frosch123> yes, it is a very cruel place 21:19:05 <SpComb> andythenorth: but as to other, separate projects then using that stuff, hmm.. 21:19:20 <SpComb> then whole `sudo setup.py install` thing is pretty heavyweight 21:19:28 <andythenorth> seriously 21:19:34 <andythenorth> I refused to do it for nml 21:19:43 <andythenorth> you don't sudo things if you can avoid it 21:19:54 <andythenorth> I live in a world of buildout, no sudo required 21:19:56 <SpComb> quite, and installing random setup.py's as root is kind of iffy 21:20:11 <valhallasw> virtualenv \o/ 21:20:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: such a thing will be required if you want the devzone to build it 21:20:22 <SpComb> if you have a package manager, your system site-packages belongs to it 21:20:25 <andythenorth> I'm going to figure out how to make a buildout for BANDIT, which will pull pixa 21:20:34 <SpComb> zc.buildout? 21:20:34 <andythenorth> but that's just me :P 21:20:37 <andythenorth> yup 21:20:50 <andythenorth> overkill for many cases 21:20:54 <SpComb> never used that, but I do use virtualenv for developing/deploying wsgi stuff 21:21:20 <andythenorth> zc.buildout creates a set of local eggs and sets local paths 21:21:32 <Eddi|zuHause> why do compilations always fail after i tested locally that they wouldn't? 21:21:34 <andythenorth> so the directory for your project is then self-contained 21:21:36 <valhallasw> (I only install deb packages in the global site-packages; everything else goes into a virtualenv) 21:21:49 <andythenorth> valhallasw: similar approach, different tool 21:21:52 <SpComb> valhallasw: yeah, that's more or less the right way to do it 21:22:01 <SpComb> although /usr/local/ is kind of so-so 21:22:09 <SpComb> and distutils defaults to /usr/local/ 21:22:18 <andythenorth> nobody I know who writes python commercially installs to global site-packages if they can avoid 21:22:34 <andythenorth> it tends to incur delays in getting to the pub 21:22:41 <SpComb> it kind of depends on what the package is for 21:22:50 <SpComb> if it's a wsgi site, no, /usr/local/ is the wrong place 21:23:05 <SpComb> if it's some command-line utils intended to be used by users and such, might be the right place 21:23:26 <SpComb> but internal scripts can still live in an /opt/foo virtualenv 21:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: of course distutils must install to /usr/local, in /usr only the packet manager may install stuff 21:25:08 <SpComb> distutils didn't always default to /usr/local/ 21:25:35 <andythenorth> so in this case...no right answer? 21:25:45 <andythenorth> 'the state of python packaging' :P 21:25:51 <SpComb> mixed 21:26:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just that you provide a setup.py doesn't mean that everybody must use it 21:26:12 <andythenorth> Ammler seems very pleased with PIP http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pip 21:26:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but it's way easier than adding to sys.path 21:26:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or "external" repos in a subdirectory... 21:26:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'm fairly convinced by your case 21:27:01 <SpComb> andythenorth: write it as a hosted web/cloud service \o/ 21:27:13 <andythenorth> SpComb: far too plausible :P 21:27:19 <andythenorth> I just move it into pyramid 21:27:29 <andythenorth> might be...slow :P 21:28:08 <andythenorth> I'm kinda relying on being able to tie up a lot of CPU for a short time 21:28:35 <andythenorth> so I'll read about setup.py 21:30:17 <andythenorth> meanwhile I moved it into a pixa dir 21:30:55 <SpComb> congrats, you have a package 21:31:10 <andythenorth> not exactly 21:31:15 <SpComb> and your redmine is 500ISE'ing 21:31:29 <andythenorth> I copied my license.txt in there, which is bad :P 21:31:38 <Eddi|zuHause> a "package" is a directory with an __init__.py 21:31:46 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: and a name 21:31:50 <SpComb> andythenorth: myes, that's project stff 21:32:00 *** Nat_aS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:32:04 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: the name of the dir the __init__.py is in is part of the api/code 21:32:04 *** Nat_aS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has joined #openttd 21:32:08 <andythenorth> wtf 21:32:13 <andythenorth> how did I break the repo? 21:32:33 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: which is why a bunch of .py files and an __init__.py lying in your repo root is not a package :) 21:33:04 *** Progman [~progman@p57A191BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:22 <frosch123> night 21:33:25 <frosch123> night eddi :p 21:33:27 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f4340.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:33:30 <andythenorth> repo is back 21:33:30 <Eddi|zuHause> :p 21:34:11 <Alberth> andythenorth: you can install a distutils package locally as well 21:34:56 <andythenorth> in that case I just add to the path? 21:35:06 <Alberth> yep :) 21:35:07 <andythenorth> or distutils has an install option flag thing? 21:35:23 <andythenorth> praps not 21:35:33 <Alberth> setup.py install --help 21:36:11 <andythenorth> I should license GPL v2? 21:36:22 <andythenorth> or dual-license v3 also? 21:36:40 * Alberth does not know what v3 does or not does 21:36:55 <andythenorth> ach I'll do v2 21:37:14 <andythenorth> can add v3 later, it's my code (and quite a bit of yours too Alberth) :) 21:37:38 <Alberth> hmm, nml has a buildout thingie :( 21:37:43 <Eddi|zuHause> just say v2 or later 21:37:51 <andythenorth> nml's buildout needs removing, it's broken 21:38:07 * Alberth gives andy permission for any license he likes to use 21:38:28 <andythenorth> thanks :) 21:38:52 <Alberth> something open source would be nice though :) 21:39:07 <SpComb> or no license at all 21:39:29 <Alberth> some countries do not accept that 21:40:33 <Alberth> so we have the wtfpl :) 21:45:58 <andythenorth> bah 21:46:09 <andythenorth> can't get distutils to see my LICENSE.txt correctly 21:46:16 <andythenorth> even though I follow the tutorial exactly 21:47:46 <andythenorth> MANIFEST.in :P 21:48:33 <andythenorth> solved 21:49:39 <andythenorth> there we go: can haz package :) http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/pixa/repository 21:50:24 *** Zeknurn` [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 21:51:40 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 21:53:33 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:55:44 <andythenorth> TODO: get pypi account :P 21:59:55 <Alberth> only one small hurdle towards world fame, and riches :p 22:00:37 <Alberth> good night 22:00:41 <andythenorth> I'll donate a share to tt-forums :P 22:00:45 <andythenorth> +1 22:00:48 * andythenorth -> bed 22:01:00 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 22:01:01 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 22:01:35 *** pjpe [ae5f3ed9@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 22:07:12 *** collinp [~collin@h73.133.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Quit: Colloquy version 2.3] 22:24:02 <Nat_aS> hey 22:24:08 <Nat_aS> I figured out the industry closing thing 22:24:52 <Nat_aS> two options in the advanced settings "Allow industry closure/creation" which defers to the newgrf, and "Do not allow industry closure/creation" which overrides. 22:25:01 *** peteris [~peteris@78.84.97.170] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:25:16 <Nat_aS> if it's important to the newgrif, it can just have a note in the documentation telling the user to change the setting 22:29:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: that doesn't work 22:29:51 <Nat_aS> why not? 22:29:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: since the newgrf can change production levels, you'll just end up with lots of industries producing nothing 22:30:19 <Nat_aS> oh, industries die when there production level reaches zero? 22:30:26 <Nat_aS> can't you override that too though? 22:33:46 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-120-199.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:37:38 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.104.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:39:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: just ask your favourite industry grf to implement a "never close industries" switch 22:42:00 <Nat_aS> i guess so 22:42:14 <Nat_aS> it just seems like that behavior ought to be conrolled by advanced features 22:42:26 <Nat_aS> I mean aircraft speed factor is in advanced options 22:42:30 <Nat_aS> (options not features) 22:42:42 <Nat_aS> and AV8 always bugs you to toggle it. 22:47:53 <NGC3982> that never close industries switch would be neat as a feature 22:47:57 <NGC3982> option/banana 22:48:29 <Nat_aS> never close and never decrees 22:48:39 <Nat_aS> if on, it would override the grfs 22:48:46 <Nat_aS> of off, it would let the grifs do there thing 22:48:58 <Nat_aS> any grif that needs it off, would tell the user to switch it. 22:49:26 <Rubidium> though... it breaks NewGRFs 22:51:28 <Nat_aS> yes, lots of updates break mods, it's up to the modding community to keep up. 22:51:40 <Nat_aS> plenty of games do this 22:52:01 <Nat_aS> minecraft is notorious for it, esp since the updates rarely have as much content as the mods they break. 22:54:11 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 22:59:10 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido] 23:01:04 *** Firartix [~artixds@181.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:02:17 <Terkhen> good night 23:09:22 *** Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-158-137.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [] 23:12:42 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@28IAADAK3.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:22:12 <Eddi|zuHause> File "/usr/bin/nmlc", line 6, in <module> main.run() 23:22:13 <Eddi|zuHause> MemoryError 23:22:17 <Eddi|zuHause> wtf?!? 23:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> especially since i actually didn't change any functionality... 23:24:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i exchanged some existing files with the same number of automatically generated ones with virtually the same content 23:34:51 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-27-54.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:50:37 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-118-73.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]