Log for #openttd on 11th March 2012:
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00:01:02  <Nat_aS> it's suposed to be able to boot from USB, one of the options on the boot menu is USB-HDD
00:01:05  <Nat_aS> but It wont do it
00:01:12  <Nat_aS> it just boots straight to windows
00:01:23  <Nat_aS> I wish there was a way to install an OS from a running OS
00:01:34  <Nat_aS> even if that OS is a malware infested mess.
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00:03:04  <Eddi|zuHause> windows might not allow you to access the boot sector
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00:06:32  <Nat_aS> man, this mini CD is almost small enough to fit on floppys
00:06:36  <Nat_aS> 12.5 mb
00:06:46  <Nat_aS> that's like what, 10 disks?
00:06:51  <planetmaker> just a factor of 10...
00:07:02  <TinoDidriksen> Floppy is 1.44mb
00:07:19  <planetmaker> wrong! it's 360 kByte!
00:07:25  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean 1.7MB :p
00:07:26  <Nat_aS> I just need a disk
00:07:29  <Nat_aS> TO THE STORE!
00:07:29  <planetmaker> It's 720 kByte!
00:07:34  <planetmaker> It's 1.2Mbyte!
00:07:55  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, the Win95-CD was split into 1.7MB "disks"
00:08:10  <Eddi|zuHause> and it actually worked copying them to actual disks to install without a CD drive
00:08:23  <planetmaker> oh, that was fun... I had a programme which could indeed format the floppies to that kind of size...
00:08:31  <planetmaker> Often it worked. But not always
00:08:33  <Eddi|zuHause> jep, VGACOPY
00:08:38  <planetmaker> ^^ indeed
00:08:55  <Eddi|zuHause> haven't seen a case where it didn't work
00:09:04  <Eddi|zuHause> but maybe those disks don't age as well
00:09:29  <Nat_aS> my corner store MIGHT sell blank CDs
00:09:35  <Nat_aS> otherwise I'm gonna give up for the night
00:09:37  <planetmaker> it didn't always work on those disks which you "enhanced" from 720kByte to 1.4 MByte by removing some plastic
00:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> oh...
00:09:54  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, different thing :)
00:09:58  <planetmaker> :-) yeah
00:10:12  <Nat_aS> I got a Neotokyo Tourny in an hour, I can't be all stressed
00:10:16  <Eddi|zuHause> probably depends on the manufacturing quality then
00:10:25  <planetmaker> yep, that made a difference there
00:10:41  <Eddi|zuHause> you're way older than me :p
00:10:59  <peter1138> what are you talking about?
00:11:14  <peter1138> floppy disks are 5Œ" and hold 100KB on a side
00:11:36  <peter1138> if you're lucky got DD disks, 200KB a side!
00:11:38  <planetmaker> nah. 180kByte
00:11:52  <planetmaker> those were those MS Word 5.0 for DOS shipped on
00:11:58  <planetmaker> 20 pieces...
00:11:59  <peter1138> yeah, double density
00:12:02  <planetmaker> what a pain to install
00:12:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i have seen an actual 8" disk once. and a drive for it (on separate occasions)
00:12:24  <planetmaker> and a drive sound like an elch
00:12:36  <peter1138> what's an elch?
00:12:50  <planetmaker> Hm... Swedish animal? Probably wrong word then
00:12:55  <Eddi|zuHause> he means an elk :p
00:13:09  <planetmaker> ^^
00:14:17  <peter1138> they're not swedish
00:15:12  <Eddi|zuHause> for broad definitions of "sweden" :p
00:15:31  <MNIM> if that includes large parts of the northern hemisphere, sure
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00:17:02  <planetmaker> Rain is British, Elks are Swedish, Sauerkraut is German. ;-)
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00:28:53  <Nat_aS> No disks at the corner store
00:28:59  <Nat_aS> I bought candy instead
00:29:00  <Nat_aS> delicious candy
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00:31:04  <MNIM> wrong. both rain and sauerkraut are dutch! >.>
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00:36:20  <Nat_aS> I have an old Laptop that may or may not work
00:36:34  <Nat_aS> only problem is it has no WiFi card
00:36:52  <Nat_aS> I need to buy a USB wi-fi adapter and blank CDs
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00:54:22  <glx> it doesn't have an ethernet port ?
00:54:50  <Nat_aS> yeah but we don't have a long enough ethernet cable
00:55:04  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a laptop. move it.
00:55:24  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:55:42  <Eddi|zuHause> night fro... i mean wolf...
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06:39:52  <andythenorth> mornings
06:40:39  <Rubidium> morning's good
06:41:50  * andythenorth should stop reading the OpenTTD 2.0 thread early in the morning
06:41:51  <andythenorth> or ever
07:01:00  <xiong> Is there some reason why a FIRS Stockyard might not be built? At first I suspected an introduction date since I start in 1850 (although realistically, stockyards are ancient). But I'm able to *fund* a Stockyard. Meanwhile other industries are randomly starting on their own.
07:01:19  <xiong> By the way, props to whoever *didn't* introduce reefers too soon. In 1850 I quite correctly have source and consumers of fruit; and even ice box wagons; but no suitable rail cars.
07:03:25  <andythenorth> xiong: two of the several possible reasons for not building are:
07:03:36  <andythenorth> (1) random is actually being random
07:03:43  <andythenorth> (2) the map has no suitable location
07:04:05  <andythenorth> ;)
07:04:09  <xiong> Yah, andythenorth; I figured (1). Just wanted to make sure.
07:04:26  <xiong> The map is very flat; I don't see a location issue.
07:04:31  <andythenorth> the game is not great at providing industries that have date restrictions
07:04:41  <xiong> ?
07:04:58  <andythenorth> it does try to build them somewhat once the date restriction has passed, but often this doesn't produce the result a player might want
07:05:36  <andythenorth> i.e. afaik, it does favour trying to build industries which are (1) allowed to be built (2) have a low or zero count on the map
07:05:41  <xiong> Well, the initial distribution is equal to about 100 years of random insertion.
07:06:20  <xiong> *Does* the Stockyard introduce after 1850 or later?
07:06:37  <xiong> Better, is this documented somewhere, so I can study up?
07:10:50  <andythenorth> xiong:
07:11:01  <andythenorth> documentation not guaranteed canonical
07:11:06  <andythenorth> code is canonical ;)
07:11:31  <xiong> "The first refrigerated boxcar entered service in June 1851..."
07:12:08  <andythenorth>
07:12:13  <andythenorth> L183
07:12:16  <andythenorth> 1867
07:13:10  <xiong> Yes, I'm looking. Thank you.
07:13:47  <andythenorth> I think there's a ticket somewhere about making stockyard always available, but changing graphics over time
07:14:00  <andythenorth> as there is no destination for livestock prior to stockyard
07:14:18  <xiong> That really makes no sense at all. Who figured 1867? People have been slaughtering all manner of beasts, en masse, for millenia.
07:15:58  <xiong> "The Union Stock Yard & Transit Co., or The Yards, was the meat packing district in Chicago for over a century starting in 1865." -- which lends some justification to the general era but still says the year is wrong.
07:17:53  <xiong> Hey, that reminds me: Was there ever any interest expressed in a nicer cargo chain map?
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07:21:45  <andythenorth> dates are set for gameplay balance, with only some attendance paid to real life dates
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07:22:41  <andythenorth> if you wish to patch your own edition, you can see that dates in the code are relatively easy to change ;)
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09:14:24  <Alberth> moin
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09:43:21  <Rhamphoryncus> heh, oops!  Replacing my single car PAX trams with double length articulated trams has turned my city into a solid wall of trams XD
09:48:44  <Alberth> your citizens will not complain that they cannot find a tram :)
09:50:28  <TWerkhoven> but how will the chickens cross the road now?
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10:44:31  <Rhamphoryncus> The grannies will take their hand and lead them
10:46:58  <Terkhen> good morning
10:53:45  <Alberth> moin Terkhen
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11:24:38  <_maddy> have to say I have gotten to a fairly pleasant start with my AI
11:25:23  <_maddy> the framework seems pretty good, and Squirrel feels easy even though I have never used it before
11:25:42  <Yexo> good to hear :)
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11:39:58  <rane> hello, is it there cfg var for pausing a server if there are no clients?
11:40:40  <Alberth> should be
11:41:01  <rane> should it be here?
11:41:39  <Alberth> it should be in that file indeed. Whether it is also listed at the wiki, I don't know
11:42:42  <Eddi|zuHause> tried "min_active_clients" or something similar?
11:42:55  <rane> nope, lemme see
11:43:04  <rane> cool
11:43:12  <Alberth> just look in the file for a name that looks right to you
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11:44:26  <Alberth> hello Devedse, all the way from zeeland !
11:45:16  <Eddi|zuHause> well,,. closer than new zeeland :p
11:45:25  <MNIM> depends, not to an aussie
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11:50:14  <Devedse> Alberth, Hi :>
11:51:31  <TrueBrain> I am paulsanders, I am ill and would die as a result of cancer. I want to distribute my funds to charity
11:51:33  <TrueBrain> organizations in your country through you,please respond for details.
11:51:35  <TrueBrain> they are getting more and more rude
11:51:50  <TrueBrain> next email will be: if you dont reply I will hunt you down and kill you
11:52:41  <Alberth> prepare the Mains <-> UTP interface!
11:58:30  <_maddy> is there a way to remove all changes I've made up to a certain point in the past in AI programming? specially in Test mode
11:58:49  <Alberth> reload the map ?
11:59:01  <andythenorth> pinkle ponkle, I went to the zoo
11:59:08  <andythenorth> 'lo Pikka
11:59:14  <andythenorth> is it done yet?
11:59:17  <Alberth> 'lo andy
11:59:20  <Pikka> nope
11:59:33  <Pikka> bloody a-train, too hard a shape :D
11:59:35  <_maddy> Alberth: function?
12:00:02  <Yexo> _maddy: any functions you execute in test mode do not change any state in the game
12:00:18  <Yexo> you can do call functions over and over again without any real result
12:00:27  <Yexo> so there are no changes to revert
12:00:55  <_maddy> Yexo: right, but I need to reset the test mode back to original state sometimes
12:01:22  <_maddy> what happens if I create a new instance of AITestMode while already in test mode?
12:01:23  <Yexo> use the AIExecMode class for that, or let your AITestMode object go out of scope
12:01:48  <Yexo> AI*Mode instances create a stack, you can create as many of them as you want, the last one created is the one used.
12:01:50  <andythenorth> Pikka: is it not a eurostar shape with doors?
12:02:04  <Yexo> you have to make sure they are deleted in reverse order otherwise things will break very badly
12:03:34  <_maddy> so, if I have TestMode A first, then I create new instance and start TestMode B, make changes, after the B object is destroyed, is the state restored to that of A?
12:03:53  <Yexo> 'yes
12:04:56  <_maddy> ok, that makes sense and works perfectly for my purpose
12:05:55  <_maddy> to have outer test mode for the whole route, and within in I can compare different options in smaller scale (such as station orientation) in a new testmode
12:07:36  <Yexo> why would you use a separate test mode object for that?
12:07:50  <Yexo> testmode == testmode, there are no differences between two instances
12:08:34  <TrueBrain> there is also ... accountingmode? to track how much a scope costs
12:09:01  <Yexo> there is AIAccounting, but that's not a mode
12:09:19  <TrueBrain> its a scope ;)
12:09:48  <_maddy> hmm, ok, so if I want to test 2 things, I have to make a testmode instance, then switch back to exec mode, and again to testmode?
12:10:21  <Yexo> you make a testmode instance -> you're in test mode, you can now test as many things as you want
12:10:50  <_maddy> yes, but I need to reset the testmode to some previous state :)
12:10:59  <Yexo> test mode has no state
12:11:39  <Yexo> "create test mode object -> build station on tile 2, build depot on tile 2, build road on tile 2"; all those actions can return success within one test mode scope
12:12:37  <_maddy> oh...I thought it remembers the state, so if I build something on a tile in test mode, I can't build on the same tile, within the scope of that test mode
12:13:00  <Yexo> there is too much state involved in openttd, so that's not doable
12:14:56  <_maddy> that would have been nice to have, but I guess I will manage without it
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12:22:48  * andythenorth wonders what the fastest way is to for gestalts to implement 'provides_filenames()' or 'provide_all_filenames()' or such
12:22:55  <andythenorth> probably nested 'for i in: ' loops
12:25:46  <Alberth> a recursive function, as the number of variables is variable
12:26:57  <_maddy> what does AITile::IsBuildableRectangle actually check when it returns true/false?
12:27:22  <Alberth> andythenorth: but you can write it on top of the functions get_variables() and get_values(), so no need to hide it in the gestalt, imho
12:27:29  <andythenorth> that's a function that calls itself while (some condition)?
12:28:14  <Alberth> yes, and for best result, the condition should become false at some point in the recursion :)
12:28:36  <Alberth> in this case, you'll run out of variables to iterate over
12:28:43  <Yexo> _maddy: it returns true if AITile::IsBuildable returns true for every tile
12:29:38  <Yexo> IsBuildAble returns true for empty tiles, for tree tiles, for coast tiles and for tiles with a single roadbit which is owned by either you or a town
12:30:08  <_maddy> right
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13:11:15  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... anyone know a (very basic) sound editing program for linux?
13:11:22  <rane> audacity
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13:11:36  <Pikka> that's what I said
13:11:44  * Pikka second audacity
13:12:30  <Eddi|zuHause> ok... *installing*
13:14:26  <andythenorth> audacity
13:14:31  <andythenorth> oh you said that
13:14:32  <andythenorth> :P
13:14:47  <Pikka> the only problem with audacity is the echoes
13:21:09  <Pikka> and re before andy, I haven't drawn a eurostar either :P
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13:24:46  <andythenorth> you can draw one based on the Hitachi :)
13:25:03  <andythenorth> ever considered raiding BROS? :)
13:25:21  <Pikka> not in the slightest
13:44:31  <__ln__>,5276001
13:47:44  <andythenorth> why does printing the output from a generator change the result of other calls to the generator?
13:48:13  <Eddi|zuHause> uninitialized variables?
13:48:18  <andythenorth>
13:48:37  <andythenorth> if I remove the first 'for sx, sy, scol' etc, and the print, this code fails
13:49:37  <Eddi|zuHause> need "bigger picture"
13:50:20  <andythenorth>
13:50:35  <andythenorth> I could paste the whole call chain, but it's probably more than you want to look at[
13:50:50  <andythenorth> maybe I should learn to use pdb instead of printing out vars to debug failures
13:51:08  <Eddi|zuHause> no, mostly the get_recolouring function
13:51:38  <Alberth> andythenorth: using dicts or sets?
13:51:56  <Eddi|zuHause> also, you print "dcol" while you loop over "scol"
13:52:28  <Alberth> dict key order changes between run
13:52:34  <Alberth> *runs
13:52:46  <andythenorth> oops
13:53:10  <andythenorth> dcol was a mistake :P but the issue persists
13:53:47  <andythenorth>
13:53:56  <andythenorth> I need to learn pdb anyway sometime
13:54:01  <andythenorth> might as well be today
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13:55:42  <andythenorth> my error is that I'm trying to set values for pixels with indexes > image width or image height
13:55:55  <andythenorth> but I can't get the values of those indexes to figure out what I've done wrong :P
13:56:51  <Eddi|zuHause> x+dx may get out of range?
13:57:13  <Alberth> add an assert just before putting the pixel
13:58:30  <Eddi|zuHause> also, what happens if you move the print to the second loop, and remove the first loop?
13:58:40  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: same issue
13:59:04  <andythenorth> afaict in that case, using sx, sy, scol will cause another set of values to be yielded by generator?
13:59:07  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you turn the second loop into a print as well
13:59:14  <Eddi|zuHause> and compare the output?
13:59:52  <andythenorth> good idea
13:59:55  <andythenorth> first I have to change nappies
14:00:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and if printing "dcol" works while you're looping over "scol", then you've got a variable scope fault...
14:01:00  <andythenorth> indeed :)
14:03:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that was the point where i split my generator into functions and modules
14:04:08  <Eddi|zuHause> makes it less likely that spurious temp variables live on for too long
14:05:20  <andythenorth> hmm
14:05:21  <andythenorth> solved
14:05:33  <andythenorth> +ve offset instead of -ve
14:05:46  * andythenorth didn't learn pdb though :(
14:06:39  * Alberth doesn't know pdb either :)
14:07:51  <Eddi|zuHause> my usual use of pdb is "oh i have an exception" - "hmm.. traceback alone is inconclusive" - "python -i" - "import pdb;" - "up/down/p <expression>"
14:08:34  <Eddi|zuHause> haven't done "live" debugging yet
14:11:07  <andythenorth> kaboom
14:11:22  * andythenorth now has load sprites comped onto vehicles, in a useful way
14:12:03  <andythenorth> where 'useful' means there are spritesheets of loads, which are opened, cropped, and applied to the vehicle
14:12:30  <andythenorth> cargo spritesheets can be generated...or hand drawn, for cases where it's easier to just draw
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14:34:39  <Alberth> is it still quicker than draw by hand (starting when you first opened the text-editor for this project)?
14:35:17  <_maddy> trying to use the rail pathfinder in my AI, it never returns from the FindPath function
14:35:42  <Yexo> how long did you run the test?
14:35:56  <Yexo> and what is the distance (in tiles) between the endpoints of the route?
14:36:02  <Yexo> are you sure there even is a valid pad?
14:37:03  <_maddy> it's been running few minutes, not sure the arguments are valid (how to check?), the distance is less than 500 tiles
14:37:14  <Yexo> 500 tiles is very long
14:37:22  <Yexo> try to limit the route to less than 200 tiles
14:38:00  <Yexo> you can tune some of the parameters to increase performance (but decrease the quality)
14:41:22  <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> is it still quicker than draw by hand (starting when you first opened the text-editor for this project)? <-- such generalizations take some time to amortize
14:41:51  <_maddy> Yexo: it's not working
14:42:31  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I know :)
14:42:33  <_maddy> nevermind, seems it's actually just really slow
14:42:57  <Alberth> _maddy: the true optimal path takes a lot of time
14:44:04  <_maddy> Alberth: yeah, when in reality I probably wouldn't need the optimal path, but just a path that is "good enough"
14:45:17  <Yexo> _maddy: try modifying the Estimate() function to return the estimated result times 1.1 or so
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14:47:16  <_maddy> Yexo: in the ai lib?
14:47:33  <Yexo> you can override that function from your AI code
14:47:42  <Yexo> you can see in the forums how to do that
14:50:34  <Yexo> see for example
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14:59:06  <_maddy> yeah, now it's faster
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15:12:47  <_maddy> still pretty slow tho :)
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15:21:40  <_maddy> might try to make my own pathfinder later which is simpler, at least I got as far as to build stations and connect them now
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15:40:42  <frosch123> wow, youtube's error 500 page is cool
15:41:01  <frosch123> i wonder whether it really contains information, or whether it is just some nerdy trolling :)
15:41:24  <frosch123>
15:43:05  <Eddi|zuHause> tried to un-base64 it?
15:45:17  <Eddi|zuHause> hm no, that doesn't seem to be it
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15:47:51  <frosch123> yeah, looks like it uses 64 characters
15:48:02  <frosch123> 26 lowercase, 26 uppercase, 10 digits, - and _
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15:50:11  <Eddi|zuHause> but "base64 -d" says it's garbage
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15:51:09  <valhallasw> maybe it has been rot13'ed
15:51:28  <valhallasw> or <random other method to obfuscate text>
15:52:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i once heard that google puts in riddles like this to find new employees :)
15:52:27  <valhallasw>
15:53:11  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, so sed-ing stuff will make it work
15:56:16  <Eddi|zuHause> so why has nobody patched base64 for that then?
15:58:01  <Eddi|zuHause> output looks like random data, though
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16:13:46  <andythenorth> Alberth: for the amount of time I've actually spent coding, pixa is much faster so far
16:13:54  <andythenorth> and will allow a much better set
16:14:03  <andythenorth> it would have been boring to carry every cargo in box trailers :P
16:18:33  <frosch123> as soon as ai build airports, they lose :p
16:19:11  <Pikka> hooray for infrastructure maintenance costs :P
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16:22:06  <frosch123> 8000 £ to build a small airport 60000/year to keep it :)
16:22:57  <andythenorth> sounds plausible
16:24:41  <frosch123> ouch, now they ask me to take over the company for 100000 :p
16:24:44  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: is there even an API to query the maintenance cost?
16:24:50  <frosch123> i think it is not even worth 0
16:25:12  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no idea, but this ai is certainly older than infrastructure cost
16:26:08  *** tokai|noir [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:26:33  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, there is
16:26:42  <frosch123> AIAirport::GetMaintenanceCostFactor
16:27:27  <frosch123> problem is that av8 is no balanced for that.
16:27:45  <frosch123> the ai had only a signle plane, and it was not even making a profit
16:28:17  <Pikka> frosch123: next version of av8 has balanced maintenance costs for the airports
16:28:28  <frosch123> i read that :)
16:28:31  <Pikka> (optional via parameter)
16:28:35  <Pikka> it works much better now
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17:08:24  * andythenorth wonders what happens when one module calls another which calls first module again :P
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17:09:25  <Eddi|zuHause> a module is only loaded once, the other imports are just references
17:10:56  <andythenorth> a better question would be: recursive functions, where no break or end condition is reached
17:11:13  <SpComb> andythenorth: depending on how the modules reference eachother, it may or may not work
17:11:23  <SpComb> the import will get an incomplete modeule
17:11:41  <SpComb> if you're really careful it might kinda work, but
17:11:47  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it throws an exception after some recursion depth
17:12:30  <SpComb> python has a stack limit
17:12:55  * andythenorth must sound like a live edition of 'programming for dummies' :P
17:13:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in theoretical computer science, a "recursive" function is one that always terminates
17:13:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: everything else is called "partial recursive"
17:14:20  <Chris_Booth> programming for dummies is a great book
17:14:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then it usually goes on about how the function to determine whether a function is recursive is not recursive
17:15:32  <andythenorth> :)
17:16:46  <andythenorth> I can't decide whether to automate dep checking (building one png requires another), or just throw errors and leave it to the user to figure out :P
17:16:56  <andythenorth> which do you think is easier?
17:17:19  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: throw an error, and let the makefile handle the dependencies
17:17:57  <andythenorth> not sure if I'll have a makefile or not
17:18:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: possibly make a (fast!) mode that just lists the dependencies without calculating the images
17:18:12  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: +1 to fast mode
17:18:14  <andythenorth> -M or such
17:18:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: let the user figure out the makefile
17:18:49  <andythenorth> maybe it's time to move this to the pixa repo
17:18:52  <andythenorth> and let others loose on it
17:18:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: nml's -M mode is totally _not_ fast
17:19:07  <andythenorth> pixa is lacking docs right now
17:19:30  <Rubidium> talking about dummy: which is then easily linked back to pixa via ;)
17:19:36  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: in a typical context, I think you'd want your set generator to create the filenames anyway
17:19:46  <andythenorth> the set is canonical afaict
17:20:11  <andythenorth> only the newgrf code knows if a png is required or not
17:21:39  <andythenorth> -M is slow for nmlc?  let's see
17:23:29  <andythenorth> hmm
17:23:34  * andythenorth can't figure out how to use it
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17:36:25  <andythenorth> nmlc -M --MF=foo.txt bandit.nml
17:36:30  <andythenorth> results in an empty foo.txt
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17:43:41  <andythenorth> hmm
17:43:45  <andythenorth> -MT works
17:43:53  <andythenorth> so what's --MF for then?
17:44:27  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 4s for BANDIT with -M
17:44:35  <andythenorth> how long do you get with CETS?
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18:04:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something around 2 minutes
18:05:04  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: give me 2 mins more, I have something dumb
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18:05:24  <Eddi|zuHause> <- the two linked revisions give some numbers
18:06:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i might move the template magic into the generator script, that may speed up stuff
18:06:49  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: stupidest thing ever:
18:06:49  <andythenorth> real	0m0.053s
18:09:04  <andythenorth> brb
18:09:15  <Eddi|zuHause> well, could make a proper parser, or a grfcodec -M patch instead
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18:13:35  <morph`> Why is my server without any NewGRFs more popular than the one with NewGRFs? NoGrf = constatly 5+ players, NewGrf = 0/10
18:13:37  <morph`> :(
18:14:03  <Rubidium> laziness
18:16:54  <Eddi|zuHause> # this is the night when we call for the moon
18:16:55  <Eddi|zuHause> # this will lead into timeless space
18:16:57  <Eddi|zuHause> # take a ride to a place without gravity
18:16:58  <Eddi|zuHause> # all we do need for this trip is to just let go
18:17:00  <Eddi|zuHause> # of all the logic - let's go
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18:26:08  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: patching grfcodec - beyond me...
18:26:20  <andythenorth> proper parser - I'd like to learn that...
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18:27:45  <Eddi|zuHause> need to learn grammar. and how to think in trees :)
18:32:33  <NGC3982> hm
18:33:09  <NGC3982> we have this transfer system: wheat is being loaded with a huge boat from a station. the boat takes a long ride to a transfer train station. trains take the goods to the proper industry.
18:33:40  <NGC3982> is there any way for me to make the trains stay in the depot until the boat has loaded the goods onto the transfer train station?
18:33:52  <Eddi|zuHause> timetable?
18:34:00  <andythenorth> full load?
18:34:19  <NGC3982> ive been looking at making a timetable, but the time it takes for the boat to load is not constant.
18:34:36  <NGC3982> and really, it doesnt ever take the same route (wich makes it take different time to get to the transfer station)
18:34:45  <Eddi|zuHause> make the boat not full load, but take anything it can get within a fixed time?
18:34:58  <Eddi|zuHause> use YAPF for ships
18:35:21  <NGC3982> YAPF is travel alghoritms, right?
18:35:28  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
18:35:53  <NGC3982> would be neat to use "if <station> = visited"
18:35:53  <NGC3982> <3.
18:36:11  <NGC3982> a bit too easy, perhaps.
18:37:57  <andythenorth> build an escape depot before the station, block the station with a single train?
18:40:30  <xiong> NGC3982, your situation is conventional and common. Your requirement doesn't make much sense.
18:41:32  <xiong> A vehicle -- any vehicle -- drops cargo -- any cargo -- at a station -- any station. Another vehicle picks it up, boom.
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18:42:43  <xiong> The dropping vehicle is ordered to 'transfer and leave empty'; the pickup vehicle to 'full load'. There are fine distinctions between 'any' and 'all'.
18:44:22  <xiong> The pickup vehicle does not wait in depot; it waits in station, so it can pick up. I can think of a few reasons why you might not want a vehicle in station for a long time; but you should plan to have some wait.
18:45:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24025 /trunk/src/lang/ (14 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: basque - 14 changes by HerrBasque
18:45:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 15 changes by arnau
18:45:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
18:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
18:45:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by Jogio
18:47:21  <xiong> I build intermodal stations with plenty of platforms since I anticipate that some will be tied up by waiting trains. Docks are less of an issue since multiple ships appear willing to overlap. With trucks, I tend not to 'full load' at all; I let them circulate merrily, empty or not, and just add more of them to the loop.
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18:49:04  <xiong> If you think about it, you must solve the waiting-for-cargo problem anyway, since primary industries produce it slowly and over a period of time. You need to be there in station picking it up, and waiting to pick it up, continuously -- for best performance.
18:51:08  <xiong> An approach used by the somewhat cautious is *not* to order 'full load' but just run the vehicle through station and pick up what it can; then conditional-jump on percentage of load, going right back to the same station. You can put a maintain-at-depot order in that loop.
18:52:37  <xiong> Another tactic is the *exit depot*. Full-load the vehicle and order it, always, to depot as it exits the transfer station, hoping for a smooth ride to the final destination.
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18:55:27  <morph`> Couldn't you press left mouse on the "eye-icon" in train's window to follow the train movement ?
18:55:43  <Nat_aS> it's ctrl click
18:55:55  <morph`> Nice, thanks :)
18:55:57  <morph`> Missed that
18:56:05  <Nat_aS> took me TOO LONG to find that
18:56:09  <Nat_aS> also it has to be medium zoom
18:56:20  <Nat_aS> Hey I have a question, why can't you zoom out farther?
18:56:42  <Nat_aS> playing really huge maps seems difficult when you can't zoom out all the way.
18:58:23  <Alberth> the smallmap gives you an overview
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19:09:52  <Nat_aS> even that's not as good as being able to zoom out and see how things look from up high
19:10:03  <Nat_aS> also i think some maps are even too big for the smalmap
19:10:15  <SpComb> zooming out is expensive
19:10:15  <Nat_aS> the wonders of modern memory sizes
19:10:49  <Alberth> in CPU :)
19:10:58  <Alberth> single-core ;)
19:11:43  <Nat_aS> it just seems kind of unfair to scale one element of the game (Max map size) to accommodate modern hardware. but not others (Max zoom level)
19:11:47  <Alberth> and we need a 10,000 sprites for one extra zoom-level
19:12:16  <Nat_aS> but then aggain some things scaler easier than others
19:12:30  <Nat_aS> maybe veichiles would vanish at higher zooms?
19:12:37  <Nat_aS> or be replaced by symbols?
19:13:18  <Nat_aS> kind of like what supreme commander does, when you zoom all the way out, it basicly just becomes a large map.
19:13:26  <NGC3982> xiong: i see.
19:13:33  <NGC3982> xiong: thank you for the input.
19:13:48  <xiong> Hope I helped, NGC3982.
19:15:24  <xiong> Nat_aS, That's the smallmap. Yes, the smallmap could be bigger.
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19:17:45  <Nat_aS> well I'm saying not only should the smallmap be bigger, you should be able to zoom the regular map out into the smallmap
19:17:48  <Nat_aS> for easier viewing
19:17:59  <Nat_aS> and eyecandy
19:18:59  <Nat_aS> to save CPU, anything that moves would be removed at the higher zoom levels, but you would still be able to see the terrain instead of just a flat noncolored map
19:19:13  <SpComb> iirc there's a patch for that
19:19:18  <Alberth> there is
19:19:19  <Nat_aS> oh?
19:19:31  <Nat_aS> is it compatible with the cargodist patch?
19:19:41  <Nat_aS> how do you apply patches anyways? I just download the completed versions
19:19:50  <SpComb> it's difficult
19:20:17  <SpComb> as a user, you should just concentrate on pressuring patch devs and trunk devs to work together :)
19:20:27  <Nat_aS> lol
19:20:34  <Alberth>
19:20:40  <Nat_aS> we need an interface like the newgrif loader for patches
19:20:47  <Nat_aS> so we can just toggle them like newgrifs
19:20:58  <Nat_aS> (Even more ways for users to horribly corrupt there save files)
19:21:06  <Nat_aS> (just what we need)
19:21:12  <Alberth> install a compiler, and a copy of the repo, and you can build them easily
19:21:23  <SpComb> patches are for developers, not users
19:21:28  <SpComb> and patchpacks are forks
19:21:34  <SpComb> and forks are death!
19:21:36  <Nat_aS> Progamer easy or user easy?
19:21:50  <Nat_aS> because these are different things :P
19:21:59  <Alberth> depends on your definition of programmer :)
19:23:08  <Alberth> if you patch against the revision the patch was created for, and you don't try combining them, compiling is pretty much straight forward,
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19:24:10  <Nat_aS> put things in the same folder and run the compiler?
19:24:19  * Nat_aS is just guessing, he's never done anything like this
19:24:34  <Alberth> almost; you 'apply' the patch to the source code.
19:24:46  <Alberth> a patch is a list of instructions how to change the code
19:25:02  * Nat_aS is spoiled by windows and Ubuntu, executable installers and package loaders
19:25:12  <Nat_aS> Although I have applied mods to STALKER by hand
19:25:25  <__ln__>  (warning: canada)
19:25:28  <Nat_aS> copying and pasting things into the games directory
19:25:42  <Alberth> yeah, most users are clueless beyond downloading & installing :(
19:26:04  <Nat_aS> Package loaders are probably the best idea ever in terms of user friendlyness
19:26:12  <Nat_aS> and preventing users from messing up
19:26:20  <Alberth> __ln__: it's also from; does not look good to me :)
19:26:48  <Nat_aS> but it's yet another layer between the user and the computer.
19:26:48  <Alberth> Nat_aS: too bad windows doesn't have them for the entire system
19:27:02  <valhallasw> direct url for __ln__s post
19:27:16  <Nat_aS> so a new generation of computer users who grew up using tablets instead of PCs might be even more clueless compaired to people who lived in the 90s
19:27:24  <valhallasw> although you won't dodge the cookies ;-)
19:27:36  <Nat_aS> anyways, Back to trains
19:27:42  <Nat_aS> that picture makes me kind of sad
19:27:42  <Alberth> Nat_aS: oh definitely
19:28:29  <Nat_aS> because in games like OTTD and simutrans it's hard to ever get enough finished goods to make giant container trains
19:29:14  <Nat_aS> container cars have a higher capacity than raw materials cars, and there will always be more raw materials being moved than finished goods in this kind of simulation
19:29:34  <Nat_aS> so mile long trains of doublestack container cars are not worth it
19:29:35  <Nat_aS> ;_;
19:31:05  <Alberth> make different industries ;)
19:31:32  <andythenorth> so how do I package this pixa thing?
19:31:41  <andythenorth> installable python module -> pypi?
19:32:18  <Nat_aS> Hmm, perhaps the game ough to be adjusted so that goods are less dense cargo wise?
19:32:41  <Alberth> distutils was the standard way, don't know what they have nowadays; have a look in the library reference
19:32:50  <Nat_aS> lots of them are produced, and they take up lots of room, but weigh less than raw materials.
19:32:55  <Nat_aS> and also pay less
19:32:58  <andythenorth> is an installable module wise?
19:33:08  <Nat_aS> so you need large trains to ship them effectively.
19:33:16  <andythenorth> how would it be updated?  how would sample project(s) be distributed?
19:33:37  <Alberth> only the fixed part should be installed imho
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19:34:13  <Alberth> the other stuff can be added in the package but not installed, or just copied to some 'example'-like directory perhaps
19:34:22  <andythenorth> it's very convenient to be able to 'hg pull -u' nml
19:34:31  <andythenorth> and to be able to revert to previous versions
19:34:37  * Alberth nods
19:35:12  <Alberth> I tend to just work from trunk versions for openttd-related software
19:35:31  <andythenorth> I don't understand how a newgrf project could include something from another hg repo
19:35:38  <andythenorth> svn uses externals for that?
19:35:56  <Alberth> hg has subrepo iirc
19:36:13  <andythenorth> if it was a newgrf project using buildout, it would just rebuildout
19:36:20  <Alberth> but I only used it for vcs-ing patches of an mq and it was highly confusing
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19:37:06  <andythenorth> a newgrf project could add pixa's location to the search path?
19:37:16  <andythenorth> and maintain, e.g. one level up the directory tree?
19:37:19  <Alberth> I would just soft-link the projects probably
19:37:53  <Alberth> if it is in the search path, the location is not relevant
19:38:08  <andythenorth> ok
19:38:35  <Alberth> that's why it's in the search path ;)
19:38:47  <andythenorth> code is currently in BANDIT repo.  Should I just add to pixa repo?  Or do I need to do a hg import somehow?
19:39:34  <Alberth> no idea, really
19:39:52  <andythenorth> duck tape says copy it in
19:40:00  <andythenorth> as I have no idea how to import
19:40:08  <andythenorth> and I don't find the history useful at this stage
19:40:14  <Alberth> you may be able to copy history for some subset of files, but whether is really possible, or how to do it then, no clue whatsoever
19:41:19  * Alberth would just copy the file as-is
19:41:35  <Alberth> and not bother about history :)
19:41:45  <Alberth> it's overrated anyway :p
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19:52:38  <Nat_aS> too bad the manual industry newgirf is not compatible with anything
19:53:06  <Nat_aS> I kind of need it to be always on because I play in scenarios with specific industries and it sucks when they just disafuckingpear.
19:53:30  <Nat_aS> but I'd love to be able to have new industries and things
19:55:13  <Alberth> play with FIRS, it has a 'do not close industries' setting
19:55:35  <Alberth> and opengfx+industries may also have it, don't know
19:55:50  <andythenorth> I think ECS may have that setting too
19:56:07  <andythenorth> hmm
19:56:13  <andythenorth> pixa is file :P
19:56:18  <andythenorth> and a GPL notice
19:56:18  <Nat_aS> oh it does?
19:56:35  <Alberth> however, the best way to get new things is to let unused industries close; growth is very slow
19:56:38  <Nat_aS> I really wish "Do not close industries" could be a settings switch.
19:56:52  <Alberth> openttd has no control over closure
19:57:04  <Nat_aS> well in a secnerio, I don't want new industries forming or old ones vanishing
19:57:39  <andythenorth> Nat_aS: a setting is never gonna happen, on the basis that one of the newgrf industry developers (all 4 of them) might get their underpants twisted
19:57:51  <andythenorth> 'omg you broke the newgrf spec'
19:57:58  <andythenorth> yeah, ok :P
19:58:38  <Alberth> nah, we fixed the spec :D
19:58:48  <Nat_aS> "Go update your code then" :P
19:59:13  <Nat_aS> in minecraft, all the mods get broken with each new update
19:59:17  <Nat_aS> reguardless of what changes
19:59:25  <Nat_aS> and they have to be rebuilt each time
19:59:39  * andythenorth sees no obvious reason why 'industries don't close' is not a setting
19:59:39  <Nat_aS> (which sucks because the updates almost never add anything of value compaired to the mods)
19:59:47  <andythenorth> so many other apparently pointless things are settings
19:59:54  <andythenorth> and this one causes a lot of support requests
20:00:07  <andythenorth> 'write your own grf' is not a valid answer
20:00:20  <Alberth> the only way to do it I think is by adding a flag 'this industry has no interest in controlling closure'
20:00:31  <andythenorth> simply refuse to handle closure
20:00:37  <andythenorth> I could look up the code :P
20:01:04  <Alberth> oh, the industry has that option already ?
20:01:15  * andythenorth adventures in industry_cmd.cpp again
20:01:22  <andythenorth> my most favouritest openttd file :P
20:01:40  <Alberth> one of the more readable ones :p
20:02:14  <andythenorth> afaict, just extend the conditions for CheckIndustryCloseDownProtection
20:02:22  <andythenorth> to check a setting
20:02:40  <andythenorth> the problem with industry code is that it's squirrely
20:02:51  <andythenorth> and has many conditions around economy, industry type, newgrf :P
20:02:53  *** Pikka [] has joined #openttd
20:02:59  <Pikka> they're waiting for you, Gordon
20:03:01  <Nat_aS> i can understand things like prices being a newgrif, but industry closure should be a setting
20:03:11  <Pikka> in the tesssssssst chamberrrrrr
20:03:17  <Pikka> possibly, Nat_aS
20:03:45  <Pikka> but closure can be part of a more complex behaviour
20:04:06  <Alberth> Nat_aS: it's mostly historical, I think. In TTDP it is sort of logical to move it to NewGRF
20:04:11  <andythenorth> L2593
20:04:21  <andythenorth> would seem the most relevant here
20:04:50  <Nat_aS> well it could be controlled by both
20:04:55  <Alberth> Pikka: unfortunately, it interferes with global control of industries in the world
20:05:01  <Nat_aS> like by default it's a setting, but newgrifs could over-ride it
20:05:22  <andythenorth> no no that would be bloody awful
20:05:45  <Pikka> what's so good about global control of industries in the world again?
20:05:48  <andythenorth> already you're over-riding the newgrf closure, now you want the newgrf to be able to over-ride the over-ride
20:05:52  <andythenorth> 'please close'
20:05:54  <andythenorth> 'no'
20:05:57  <andythenorth> 'please close, really'
20:05:59  <andythenorth> 'oh, ok'
20:06:01  <andythenorth> :P
20:07:14  <Alberth> Pikka: the game has an overview of what industries live at the entire world; it can open new ones or close unused / obsolete ones.
20:07:56  <Pikka> but what defines "unused / obsolete" if not the grf?
20:07:57  <Alberth> an industry does not have that overview
20:08:37  <Alberth> an industry does not know whether it is the last one, or one of 500
20:08:52  <Pikka> I'm pretty sure it does
20:09:00  *** Devroush [] has joined #openttd
20:09:12  <Pikka> 67		Supported by OpenTTD Supported by TTDPatch	Count of industry, distance of closest instance
20:09:26  <andythenorth> tried that
20:09:53  <andythenorth> can't remember why it sucked
20:10:04  <Alberth> does it take map size into accont?
20:10:34  <Alberth> does it take next / previous industries into account?
20:10:41  <Alberth> (in the chain)
20:11:01  <Pikka> it can do, it's count of any given industry
20:11:08  <Pikka> not necessarily this one
20:11:16  <Alberth> nice
20:11:33  <Nat_aS> andythenorth, my idea is that most newgrifs would not specify closure, and that the game would, BUT if the newgtif did specify closure, it would overide the game.
20:11:44  <andythenorth> Nat_aS: that's silly
20:12:11  <andythenorth> what problem are you trying to solve? :)
20:12:33  <Nat_aS> I am trying to solve being stuck with the manual industries newgrif which is compatible with nothing
20:12:46  <andythenorth> why are you stuck with that?
20:12:53  <Nat_aS> although you said other industry grifs have that option so i should try it
20:13:11  <Alberth> andythenorth: due to not reading the manual ;)
20:13:56  <frosch123> the problem with industry closure is, that it is tied to production changes (for primary industries)
20:13:59  <Alberth> Nat_aS: btw it's NewGRF, there is no "i" in it
20:14:21  * Nat_aS pronounces it Grif as in the name
20:14:46  <andythenorth> I can't remember why it sucked, but when we tried solving this for FIRS, and running long headless test games logging stats, we found that industries can't really work for this
20:14:48  <andythenorth> ha
20:14:50  <andythenorth> I remember
20:16:01  <andythenorth> Pikka: so assuming you want to prevent the mass extinction of industries (I do)....
20:16:19  <andythenorth> it seems smart to say, check var 67 every so often and store it persistently
20:16:27  <andythenorth> then check the count when you're thinking of closing
20:16:43  <andythenorth> if the count hasn't changed for (some time), ok, close
20:16:46  <andythenorth> no mass die off?
20:17:11  <andythenorth> unfortunate problem: multiple industries of type x have a habit of closing in the same month :P
20:17:21  <Pikka> yes, well
20:17:26  <andythenorth> on larger maps, the same mass die off happens
20:17:33  <andythenorth> we logged it for a bit
20:17:33  <Pikka> that seems to be a problem with your implementation rather than the concept :P
20:17:59  <andythenorth> it was better than default behaviour, but could still be pathologically stupid some months
20:18:10  <andythenorth> if you can solve it, I'll steal it :P
20:18:16  <Pikka> lol okay
20:18:31  <andythenorth> I tried random offsets, referencing the town id, tricks with map x, y
20:18:38  <andythenorth> it was all blearch
20:18:38  <Pikka> I don't think I've even touched secondary industry closures yet though
20:18:50  <Alberth> Pikka: the concept by andy is flawed I think, in the sense that you just delay closing rounds by (some time)
20:19:04  <Pikka> tbh I only play small-normal maps so it's not an effect I've noticed much
20:19:43  <andythenorth> I spent a couple of weekends on it, concluded you need a global overview
20:19:50  <andythenorth> or change industry spec
20:19:54  <andythenorth> or newgrf-global storage
20:20:05  <andythenorth> remind me, what's so evil about newgrf global storage?
20:22:22  <Eddi|zuHause> [GRFCODEC] cets.grf
20:22:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Error: Insufficient meta-data.
20:22:25  <Eddi|zuHause>         While reading sprite:38
20:22:26  <Eddi|zuHause> wtf?
20:22:28  *** pjpe [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
20:22:52  <Pikka> you broke it, Eddi|zuHause
20:23:41  <Eddi|zuHause> ah i see... i need to update grfcodec to grfv2
20:25:37  <Eddi|zuHause> works (tm)
20:27:09  <andythenorth> \o/
20:28:54  <Eddi|zuHause> but why does grfcodec not throw up when it reads "info version 32"?
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20:36:07  <Alberth> it does not want to make your new carpet dirty ?
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21:02:22  *** germanplayer [] has joined #openttd
21:02:33  <germanplayer> guten abend
21:03:15  <germanplayer> good evening
21:03:17  <andythenorth> how do I tell python to search further up the directory tree?
21:03:30  <SpComb> andythenorth: PYTHONPATH=... python ...
21:03:35  <andythenorth> do I need to use an abs path, rather than basing on os.curdir?
21:03:52  <andythenorth> [this is for module import]
21:03:56  <Eddi|zuHause> it should work to put ".." into the path
21:04:00  <germanplayer> can someone help me?
21:05:03  <germanplayer> irgentwer aus der deutsch spricht?
21:05:25  <Yexo> germanplayer: this channel is english-only. We can only help you if you actually ask a question
21:05:27  <__ln__> ^ is that grammatical?
21:05:38  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: no
21:05:38  <Yexo> there is a german forum at
21:05:39  <frosch123> __ln__: nope :p
21:05:53  <__ln__> thought so, it looked so weird
21:06:26  *** germanplayer [] has quit []
21:07:22  * andythenorth is doing something probably stupid
21:07:45  <andythenorth> so a newgrf project (e.g. BANDIT) would need a way to add pixa to the python search path
21:07:54  <andythenorth> pixa being a hg checkout somewhere
21:08:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no. pixa would be installed to site-packages
21:08:13  <andythenorth> and the location will vary depending on how the user has things setup
21:08:20  <frosch123> is it intentional that pixa looks like pikka ?
21:08:24  <andythenorth> nope
21:08:38  <andythenorth> I think it was intentional by Rubidium to cause false highlights for pixa though :)
21:08:42  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ?
21:08:43  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: we also have a guy named Pixa here :)
21:09:09  <frosch123> yeah, but likely he disabled highlights or put andy on ignore :p
21:09:10  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so it would be installed to system python?
21:09:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: pixa will be installed properly. then it's in the python path
21:09:27  <andythenorth> so how is it updated then?
21:09:37  <Eddi|zuHause> by installing a new version
21:09:39  <andythenorth> I need to package it with Distribute or such?
21:09:58  <Eddi|zuHause> with a
21:10:03  <Eddi|zuHause> or something
21:10:04  <andythenorth> why don't we install nml this way?
21:10:19  <Eddi|zuHause> no nml doesn't want to be used as module
21:10:24  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a standalone tool
21:10:26  <frosch123> you should have called it pyxa
21:10:32  <andythenorth> frosch123: too late :)
21:10:51  * andythenorth is so not used to spewing things all over system python
21:10:52  *** Devedse [] has joined #openttd
21:10:55  <andythenorth> but doesn't know how to avoid it
21:11:00  <frosch123> hmm, i think i was already too late the last time a project was named
21:11:27  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it's karma. for always leaving too early for anyone to reply :p
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21:13:28  <andythenorth> pixa is here if anyone wants to package it :P
21:13:28  <andythenorth>
21:13:39  <germanplayer1> someone from germany here
21:14:03  <SpComb> andythenorth: `mkdir pixa; mv *.py pixa`
21:14:17  <SpComb> andythenorth: then read
21:14:50  <SpComb> and/or
21:15:46  <germanplayer1> :(
21:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "from distutils.core import setup" or something
21:16:42  <andythenorth> SpComb: thanks
21:16:45  <SpComb> you can't have an in a hg repo root, it has to be in a directory, and then that directory has to be in the VCS
21:16:55  <SpComb> for the directory is an important part of it being a package
21:17:00  <SpComb> as opposed to two random .py modules
21:17:16  <FLHerne> 21:07: Yexo: there is a german forum at
21:17:57  <andythenorth> SpComb: k
21:18:24  *** germanplayer1 [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
21:18:27  * SpComb learned that bit the hard way
21:18:51  *** pjpe [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
21:18:54  <frosch123> that there is a german forum?
21:19:03  <frosch123> yes, it is a very cruel place
21:19:05  <SpComb> andythenorth: but as to other, separate projects then using that stuff, hmm..
21:19:20  <SpComb> then whole `sudo install` thing is pretty heavyweight
21:19:28  <andythenorth> seriously
21:19:34  <andythenorth> I refused to do it for nml
21:19:43  <andythenorth> you don't sudo things if you can avoid it
21:19:54  <andythenorth> I live in a world of buildout, no sudo required
21:19:56  <SpComb> quite, and installing random's as root is kind of iffy
21:20:11  <valhallasw> virtualenv \o/
21:20:18  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: such a thing will be required if you want the devzone to build it
21:20:22  <SpComb> if you have a package manager, your system site-packages belongs to it
21:20:25  <andythenorth> I'm going to figure out how to make a buildout for BANDIT, which will pull pixa
21:20:34  <SpComb> zc.buildout?
21:20:34  <andythenorth> but that's just me :P
21:20:37  <andythenorth> yup
21:20:50  <andythenorth> overkill for many cases
21:20:54  <SpComb> never used that, but I do use virtualenv for developing/deploying wsgi stuff
21:21:20  <andythenorth> zc.buildout creates a set of local eggs and sets local paths
21:21:32  <Eddi|zuHause> why do compilations always fail after i tested locally that they wouldn't?
21:21:34  <andythenorth> so the directory for your project is then self-contained
21:21:36  <valhallasw> (I only install deb packages in the global site-packages; everything else goes into a virtualenv)
21:21:49  <andythenorth> valhallasw: similar approach, different tool
21:21:52  <SpComb> valhallasw: yeah, that's more or less the right way to do it
21:22:01  <SpComb> although /usr/local/ is kind of so-so
21:22:09  <SpComb> and distutils defaults to /usr/local/
21:22:18  <andythenorth> nobody I know who writes python commercially installs to global site-packages if they can avoid
21:22:34  <andythenorth> it tends to incur delays in getting to the pub
21:22:41  <SpComb> it kind of depends on what the package is for
21:22:50  <SpComb> if it's a wsgi site, no, /usr/local/ is the wrong place
21:23:05  <SpComb> if it's some command-line utils intended to be used by users and such, might be the right place
21:23:26  <SpComb> but internal scripts can still live in an /opt/foo virtualenv
21:24:35  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: of course distutils must install to /usr/local, in /usr only the packet manager may install stuff
21:25:08  <SpComb> distutils didn't always default to /usr/local/
21:25:35  <andythenorth> so in this right answer?
21:25:45  <andythenorth> 'the state of python packaging' :P
21:25:51  <SpComb> mixed
21:26:06  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just that you provide a doesn't mean that everybody must use it
21:26:12  <andythenorth> Ammler seems very pleased with PIP
21:26:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but it's way easier than adding to sys.path
21:26:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or "external" repos in a subdirectory...
21:26:55  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'm fairly convinced by your case
21:27:01  <SpComb> andythenorth: write it as a hosted web/cloud service \o/
21:27:13  <andythenorth> SpComb: far too plausible :P
21:27:19  <andythenorth> I just move it into pyramid
21:27:29  <andythenorth> might be...slow :P
21:28:08  <andythenorth> I'm kinda relying on being able to tie up a lot of CPU for a short time
21:28:35  <andythenorth> so I'll read about
21:30:17  <andythenorth> meanwhile I moved it into a pixa dir
21:30:55  <SpComb> congrats, you have a package
21:31:10  <andythenorth> not exactly
21:31:15  <SpComb> and your redmine is 500ISE'ing
21:31:29  <andythenorth> I copied my license.txt in there, which is bad :P
21:31:38  <Eddi|zuHause> a "package" is a directory with an
21:31:46  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: and a name
21:31:50  <SpComb> andythenorth: myes, that's project stff
21:32:00  *** Nat_aS [] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
21:32:04  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: the name of the dir the is in is part of the api/code
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21:32:08  <andythenorth> wtf
21:32:13  <andythenorth> how did I break the repo?
21:32:33  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: which is why a bunch of .py files and an lying in your repo root is not a package :)
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21:33:22  <frosch123> night
21:33:25  <frosch123> night eddi :p
21:33:27  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:33:30  <andythenorth> repo is back
21:33:30  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
21:34:11  <Alberth> andythenorth: you can install a distutils package locally as well
21:34:56  <andythenorth> in that case I just add to the path?
21:35:06  <Alberth> yep :)
21:35:07  <andythenorth> or distutils has an install option flag thing?
21:35:23  <andythenorth> praps not
21:35:33  <Alberth> install --help
21:36:11  <andythenorth> I should license GPL v2?
21:36:22  <andythenorth> or dual-license v3 also?
21:36:40  * Alberth does not know what v3 does or not does
21:36:55  <andythenorth> ach I'll do v2
21:37:14  <andythenorth> can add v3 later, it's my code (and quite a bit of yours too Alberth) :)
21:37:38  <Alberth> hmm, nml has a buildout thingie :(
21:37:43  <Eddi|zuHause> just say v2 or later
21:37:51  <andythenorth> nml's buildout needs removing, it's broken
21:38:07  * Alberth gives andy permission for any license he likes to use
21:38:28  <andythenorth> thanks :)
21:38:52  <Alberth> something open source would be nice though :)
21:39:07  <SpComb> or no license at all
21:39:29  <Alberth> some countries do not accept that
21:40:33  <Alberth> so we have the wtfpl :)
21:45:58  <andythenorth> bah
21:46:09  <andythenorth> can't get distutils to see my LICENSE.txt correctly
21:46:16  <andythenorth> even though I follow the tutorial exactly
21:47:46  <andythenorth> :P
21:48:33  <andythenorth> solved
21:49:39  <andythenorth> there we go: can haz package :)
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21:55:44  <andythenorth> TODO: get pypi account :P
21:59:55  <Alberth> only one small hurdle towards world fame, and riches :p
22:00:37  <Alberth> good night
22:00:41  <andythenorth> I'll donate a share to tt-forums :P
22:00:45  <andythenorth> +1
22:00:48  * andythenorth -> bed
22:01:00  *** Alberth [] has left #openttd []
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22:24:02  <Nat_aS> hey
22:24:08  <Nat_aS> I figured out the industry closing thing
22:24:52  <Nat_aS> two options in the advanced settings "Allow industry closure/creation" which defers to the newgrf, and "Do not allow industry closure/creation" which overrides.
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22:25:16  <Nat_aS> if it's important to the newgrif, it can just have a note in the documentation telling the user to change the setting
22:29:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: that doesn't work
22:29:51  <Nat_aS> why not?
22:29:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: since the newgrf can change production levels, you'll just end up with lots of industries producing nothing
22:30:19  <Nat_aS> oh, industries die when there production level reaches zero?
22:30:26  <Nat_aS> can't you override that too though?
22:33:46  *** Devedse [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:37:38  *** JVassie [~James@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:39:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: just ask your favourite industry grf to implement a "never close industries" switch
22:42:00  <Nat_aS> i guess so
22:42:14  <Nat_aS> it just seems like that behavior ought to be conrolled by advanced features
22:42:26  <Nat_aS> I mean aircraft speed factor is in advanced options
22:42:30  <Nat_aS> (options not features)
22:42:42  <Nat_aS> and AV8 always bugs you to toggle it.
22:47:53  <NGC3982> that never close industries switch would be neat as a feature
22:47:57  <NGC3982> option/banana
22:48:29  <Nat_aS> never close and never decrees
22:48:39  <Nat_aS> if on, it would override the grfs
22:48:46  <Nat_aS> of off, it would let the grifs do there thing
22:48:58  <Nat_aS> any grif that needs it off, would tell the user to switch it.
22:49:26  <Rubidium> though... it breaks NewGRFs
22:51:28  <Nat_aS> yes, lots of updates break mods, it's up to the modding community to keep up.
22:51:40  <Nat_aS> plenty of games do this
22:52:01  <Nat_aS> minecraft is notorious for it, esp since the updates rarely have as much content as the mods they break.
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23:02:17  <Terkhen> good night
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23:22:12  <Eddi|zuHause> File "/usr/bin/nmlc", line 6, in <module>
23:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause> MemoryError
23:22:17  <Eddi|zuHause> wtf?!?
23:22:50  <Eddi|zuHause> especially since i actually didn't change any functionality...
23:24:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i exchanged some existing files with the same number of automatically generated ones with virtually the same content
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