Log for #openttd on 12th March 2012:
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01:14:37  <Eddi|zuHause> srslywtf... i changed something that _reduces_ code complexity, but it _increases_ the memory footprint of nmlc?!?
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07:40:38  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: how much memory would you need?
07:45:21  * andythenorth needs more memory
07:45:25  <andythenorth> I keep forgetting things :|
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08:08:51  <Ammler> building cets likes to break the whole system awesome :-)
08:11:31  <Ammler> maybe memory increase is also related to Hirundos optimations
08:12:02  <andythenorth> Ammler: good to push boundaries ;)
08:13:13  <andythenorth> hmm
08:13:25  <Ammler> boundaries?
08:13:38  <andythenorth> system capabilities ;)
08:13:53  <andythenorth> stretching things causes improvements
08:14:06  <Ammler> yes, I rised limit from 4GB to 6
08:14:25  <Ammler> cets seems to build again
08:15:33  <andythenorth> so now I have my pixa module, but the imports have to be 'from pixa.pixa'
08:15:37  <andythenorth> do I care?
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08:20:37  <planetmaker> wot? compiling cets needs more than 4GB ram?
08:21:52  <planetmaker> that sounds... way too much to me
08:22:06  <SpComb> andythenorth: once you have your code split across more than one module
08:22:30  <SpComb> andythenorth: you can also have stuff in your
08:23:15  <andythenorth> I should probably split the code up logically
08:23:24  <andythenorth> currently it's nice to only have one editor window :P
08:25:03  <Ammler> planetmaker: that is not the limit of the build, that is the limit of the whole system
08:25:27  <Ammler> build host had around 1GB
08:27:34  <andythenorth> meh
08:27:44  <andythenorth> now I have to run everytime I make a change to pixa :)
08:29:52  <Ammler> or use it like nml
08:31:13  <andythenorth> dunno how to do that
08:32:21  <Ammler> or simply exapnd PYTHONPATH
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10:42:45  <dihedral> hello :-)
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11:38:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: if the build itself "only" uses ~1GB, what's using the other 3GB?
11:39:15  <planetmaker> Redmine
11:39:24  <planetmaker> +mysql
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11:58:04  <Ammler> I did not check the real memory usage, just guessing
11:58:15  <Ammler> but around 3GB is always reserved
11:59:37  <Ammler> hmm, gunicorn is quite a memory waster
12:00:03  <Ammler> maybe I should again test uwsgi
12:02:18  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure why the memory usage is so high, anyway. we have ca. 350k loc (~5MB) of sources. that means for every line it uses ~500kB of memory...
12:04:44  <Eddi|zuHause> btw, i have done a new profile run, after i "optimized out" the whole template calculations, now the time spent in dropped from 150s to 12s
12:05:01  <Eddi|zuHause> compare and
12:05:29  <Eddi|zuHause> now the majority of the time is spent in the parser
12:07:33  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i think i misread the numbers, 125k loc, which makes it even worse
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12:48:05  <DanMacK> Hey all
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13:05:38  <Belugas> hello
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14:36:00  <dorfle> does openttd model an economy in an interesting way
14:36:48  <rane> i've been wondering if there are some essential addons that make the game more interesting
14:42:56  <dorfle> salut rane
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15:11:07  <planetmaker> dorfle, rane: define "interesting"
15:11:40  <planetmaker> personally I'll answer 'yes' to both of your questions
15:12:54  <dorfle> i cannot define it, it's a question of opinion :)
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15:16:59  <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: Ironically, binop::reduce spends most of its time optimizing... I guess the optimization needs optimization ;-)
15:17:14  <dihedral> dorfle, yes it is interesting
15:20:37  <rane> planetmaker: no idea
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15:23:17  <planetmaker> rane, then... how can anyone else answer your (implicit) question?
15:23:39  <rane> by recommending addons they've found to be an interesting addition to the game
15:24:13  <planetmaker> My suggestion for you is: look through the tt-forums. You'll find mentioned plenty
15:24:27  <planetmaker> Explore the online content. Try a few. Maybe just in a quick test game
15:24:49  <planetmaker> Or look at games, say, from the public server archive
15:25:00  <planetmaker> or also from the forums
15:25:36  <planetmaker> of course I'll recommend "my" NewGRFs...
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16:03:26  <evdvelde> hi all, what is the easiest way in the game to convert rail types? :-)
16:03:48  <evdvelde> I want to upgrade but converting every piece by hand seems like quite a jobe
16:03:51  <planetmaker> using the convert button
16:03:56  <planetmaker> it's a drag&drop
16:04:09  <evdvelde> planetmaker: that could take ages, not?
16:04:22  <planetmaker> dragging the whole screen is one action
16:04:36  <planetmaker> zoom out, drag whole map with convert tool. done
16:04:41  <evdvelde> and what about the trains?
16:04:45  <planetmaker> send to depot
16:04:54  <planetmaker> and replace by proper type for new track
16:05:05  <planetmaker> or if tracks are incompatible you'll have to build new ones
16:05:10  <planetmaker> in another depot.
16:05:13  <evdvelde> ah ok, so... just replace them all and it should work?
16:05:17  <planetmaker> you could share orders with old trains though
16:05:28  <evdvelde> pfew :)
16:05:34  <Eddi|zuHause> or use the universal railtype
16:06:20  <evdvelde> i have 20+ trains in an fully connected network and would hate to manually have to check each rail :)
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16:07:06  <planetmaker> <planetmaker> zoom out, drag whole map with convert tool. done
16:07:12  <planetmaker> thus no tile needs checking
16:07:43  <evdvelde> ok thanks and then i'll have to see how fast i can change my trains
16:08:07  <TinoDidriksen> ...that's the kind of thing I turn "build while paused" on for.
16:09:22  <planetmaker> TinoDidriksen, I only wish people were upgrading or repairing infrastructure also while "paused" ;-)
16:09:32  <planetmaker> in reallife
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16:11:09  <evdvelde> the other thing that bugged me in my first long openttd game was how fast some industries disappeared
16:16:48  <andythenorth> orly? :)
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16:51:46  <giucam> hi
16:52:42  <giucam> i really like openttd, but mostly the trains. is there an ai that builds and manages buses in the towns and connect them to my train stations?
16:54:53  <dihedral> iirc other companies cannot connect to eachothers stations
16:55:08  <dihedral> it only allows connecting to own stations
16:55:14  <dihedral> and an ai runs its own company
16:55:23  <giucam> ah
16:55:28  <giucam> too bad
16:55:33  <giucam> thanks
16:55:59  <planetmaker> There's no "play me" script for player companies
16:56:12  <planetmaker> :-)
16:56:32  <giucam> well, just "play buses for me" :)
16:56:50  <giucam> it would be a simbyotic relationship
16:56:52  <dihedral> that sounds like a job for TB :-P
16:57:04  <giucam> TB?
16:57:44  <planetmaker> dihedral, that was explicitly rejected
16:58:10  <planetmaker> especially and foremost by TB
16:58:28  <planetmaker> giucam, it's a guy :-)
16:58:37  <giucam> ah :)
16:58:47  <giucam> i though it was a project
16:59:23  <Prof_Frink> I thought it was a disease.
16:59:24  <dihedral> pm: i know ;-)
16:59:37  <planetmaker> he wrote OpenTTD's game script interface
17:01:08  <giucam> btw, is there some paper explaining ottd's pathfinder?
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17:01:30  <giucam> i mean how it's implemented
17:02:06  <planetmaker> no
17:02:12  <planetmaker> There's the source code
17:02:18  <planetmaker> It's the ultimate documentation ;-)
17:02:23  <planetmaker> It's an A* path finder
17:02:52  <giucam> eh, but there are the signals
17:02:58  <giucam> (i'm talking about the trains)
17:03:10  <planetmaker> doesn't change anything of what I said
17:03:21  <planetmaker> it's just how penalties for it are chosen
17:03:32  <planetmaker> and those are in the config file
17:04:39  <giucam> i've been working on a 3d railroad sim. i could write an A* pathfinder to go from point A to point B, but i didn't know how to add in siglans
17:04:44  <giucam> *signals
17:05:26  <planetmaker> Each rail tile gets a penalty.
17:05:30  <planetmaker> Signals are on rail tiles
17:05:44  <planetmaker> Thus their presence, their type and their state may change the rail tile's value
17:05:56  <planetmaker> the path with the least penalties is the best
17:08:06  <planetmaker> path finder is called everytime a train reaches a tile where tracks branch
17:08:10  <giucam> ok, but i was calculating the path when the train starts. this won't work if a signal becomes red after it started
17:08:29  <giucam> when does openttdf calculates the path?
17:08:41  <planetmaker> ^^ :-)
17:08:42  <Rhamphoryncus> Many of those value changes only apply when a train is nearby though.  That's why you can have two tracks and a train will always go along them, regardless of how loaded the other end is, but will pick a nearby one that has the least red signals
17:08:46  <glx> at each junction
17:09:13  <Rhamphoryncus> (it's more complicated than just a count of red signals, but that's the gist of it)
17:09:22  <Eddi|zuHause> <Prof_Frink> I thought it was a disease. <-- no, that's TBC :p
17:09:41  <giucam> planetmaker: oh, i didn't see your last message :)
17:09:42  <Rhamphoryncus> I thought FIRS was a disease?
17:09:43  <planetmaker> yeah. Only the next 20(?) signals or so are considered with their state
17:09:48  <Rhamphoryncus> 10
17:10:05  <Rhamphoryncus> And each is given a different weight
17:10:44  <giucam> ok
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17:11:31  <giucam> i don't know if i will ever continue it, though :P
17:12:06  <Eddi|zuHause> make an OpenTT3D :)
17:12:19  <giucam> that's the idea, more or less :)
17:12:28  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, make an opengl renderer for openttd
17:12:41  <giucam> i'd want an openttd with more track directions and with nicer looking terrain
17:12:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: the _renderer_ isn't really that big of a problem...
17:13:10  <Rhamphoryncus> Which problem? :)
17:13:46  <giucam> it would still be 2d
17:14:51  <Rhamphoryncus> Ahh, openttd is closer to doing that than you realize, at least for the graphics
17:15:20  <giucam> you mean the terrain or the tracks?
17:15:33  <evdvelde> if you look at the overview of e.g. trains, is it possible to autogroup them by something else than All availble and Ungrouped Trains? E.g. all trains with non-electric engines
17:15:40  <Rhamphoryncus> higher resolution and colour depth for all sprites
17:15:52  <giucam> ah yes, i saw that
17:16:03  <giucam> i'm indeed playign with 32bpp
17:16:05  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, it needs roughly 1500 sprites
17:16:13  <Eddi|zuHause> evdvelde: no. the last attempt at making that more flexible didn't go anywhere (yet)
17:16:23  <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: *nod*  I need to install it and see how it works
17:16:32  <evdvelde> Eddi|zuHause: thanks for the answer, pity though :)
17:16:35  <planetmaker> install what?
17:16:38  <giucam> but that's not what i'd want
17:16:55  <Rhamphoryncus> the 32bpp stuff.  Whatever stuff there is.  :)
17:17:07  <planetmaker> that needs WAY more sprites (about 10k)
17:17:11  <Rhamphoryncus> I have tried the 32bpp renderers before.  Sadly a significant performance penalty :/
17:17:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: 32bpp and extra-zoom doesn't make it 3D
17:17:18  <planetmaker> I meant 3D or rather rotation
17:17:42  <Rhamphoryncus> We all have different intentions, heh
17:18:02  <planetmaker> I don't have such intention. I just once did the maths to give people a number who "request" that feature ;-)
17:18:16  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
17:18:40  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if you mean map rotation, what about all the newgrfs?
17:18:46  * Rhamphoryncus will break out MS Paint via wine and start drawing
17:19:07  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, bad luck. Disable rotation feature, if there's a NewGRF which has not set the "allow rotation" bit set
17:19:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: do yourself a favour and start with gimp
17:19:17  <Rhamphoryncus> I was joking :)
17:19:43  <planetmaker> Thus it would require explicit NewGRF support
17:19:59  <planetmaker> One could go fancy and check for features used in the grf.
17:20:24  <planetmaker> It would only need explicit support by houses, industry tiles, airport tiles and objects.
17:20:57  <planetmaker> hm. and stations
17:21:01  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i would definitely vote against such a feature then
17:21:07  <planetmaker> why?
17:21:13  <Rhamphoryncus> For single tile houses you could have a fallback of cheating and just reusing the directions
17:21:23  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, that's ugly
17:21:34  <Rhamphoryncus> Yup, but as a fallback it works
17:21:41  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you basically invalidate all existing newgrfs
17:21:49  <planetmaker> I'd vote against such fallback :-)
17:21:55  <planetmaker> If the NewGRF author makes it so: then it's explicit
17:22:06  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, no, I don't
17:22:11  <planetmaker> They all will continue to work
17:22:29  <planetmaker> And there's no way to add rotation other than this way
17:22:55  <planetmaker> or breaking it completely and adding 3D models. But that's worse wrt breaking stuff
17:22:56  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: then add no rotation at all
17:23:08  <planetmaker> I think that argument is a very weak one, Eddi|zuHause
17:23:17  <planetmaker> As really nothing breaks
17:23:33  <planetmaker> And new features generally are only supported by new NewGRFs
17:23:38  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: transparency and "terrain slicing" can do an eqivalent job, without breaking anything
17:24:13  <planetmaker> as said: nothing breaks
17:24:47  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: using an old newgrf "breaks" the rotation. from the user's point of view
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17:25:26  <planetmaker> it simply supports no rotation ;-)
17:25:32  <Eddi|zuHause> a user doesn't know that
17:25:48  <planetmaker> oh, he can know that. It's a matter of how it's communicated
17:26:10  <Eddi|zuHause> and then he comes to the forum
17:26:12  <Rhamphoryncus> Many dimetric games I've played have reused the same sprite for all directions.  It works fine.  It's not eyecandy, but it works.
17:26:23  <Rubidium> pff... we already have two rotations. Who needs any more?
17:26:24  <Eddi|zuHause> and then we tell him "either newgrf X or rotation. choose"
17:26:34  <planetmaker> yup
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17:26:43  <Eddi|zuHause> and then he will be disappointed
17:26:48  <planetmaker> poor user
17:26:57  <Eddi|zuHause> because the scenario he downloaded was so interesting
17:26:58  <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: two?
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17:27:05  <Eddi|zuHause> but he cannot update the grfs to a newer version
17:27:27  <Eddi|zuHause> because there either isn't one, or even if there was one, updating is disabled
17:27:54  <planetmaker> Current scenarios are no argument really. As they're just savegames with NewGRFs
17:28:31  <Eddi|zuHause> which is another problem. we have this fancy grf versioning, but it's effectively useless, because the GUI doesn't support updating to "compatible" versions
17:28:34  <planetmaker> I really don't like to call them scenarios tbh :-)
17:28:51  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, gtg
17:29:10  <Rhamphoryncus> "compatible" or *compatible*?  ;)
17:29:19  <planetmaker> also... I don't need more rotations ;-)
17:29:57  <Rhamphoryncus> Me either.  In games that rotate I usually stick to just one so I don't get disoriented
17:30:38  <Rhamphoryncus> I do get disoriented easily though
17:31:50  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's another argument for not introducing rotations :p
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17:37:22  <planetmaker> <planetmaker> I don't have such intention. I just once did the maths to give people a number who "request" that feature ;-) <-- I started with that statement, Eddi|zuHause  ;-)
17:38:03  <planetmaker> and I don't think it's a feature out of question. It "just" needs lots of dedication. And it would not invalidate the slicing or whatever you mentioned
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18:10:46  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 'compatible' is no such thing
18:10:58  <andythenorth> :)
18:11:04  <andythenorth> it's a meaningless claim
18:13:03  <andythenorth> for as long as one newgrf can break another...
18:13:30  <andythenorth> or for as long as 'disable self if another newgrf not present' is considered to be desirable behaviour
18:14:28  <andythenorth> I find the last case insane tbh, and think the spec should say so
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18:15:30  <andythenorth> just as it's possible to write unclosed while loops - but if you do, you're considered quite an idiot
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18:44:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24026 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files): (log message trimmed)
18:44:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:44:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by Wowanxm
18:44:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 43 changes by Eskymak
18:44:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 15 changes by habell
18:44:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_AU - 14 changes by tomas4g
18:44:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by OliTTD
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19:32:53  <frosch123> ...
19:33:42  <frosch123> i enter a website, then switch to a german site to get more local information, and i get a latin one ....
19:34:30  <frosch123> oh hmm, every paragraph has the same text, so i guess it just means it's not done :p
19:37:14  <planetmaker> lorem ipsum?
19:37:30  *** flaa [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:37:32  <frosch123> yup
19:39:32  <frosch123> i just did not get it, but thought it was some swedish joke :p
19:40:15  <planetmaker> :-)
19:41:27  <frosch123> though i think it were the finish you refused to publish euroean stuff also in german some years ago, and provided latin translations instead
19:41:34  <frosch123> s/you/who/
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19:47:48  <Terkhen> hello
19:48:11  <dorfle> hi :)
19:48:17  <planetmaker> sounds like a nice idea, frosch123, to "just" provide latin ;-)
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19:55:48  <Zuu_> Any ideas for something to add to neighbours are important?
19:57:43  <__ln__> unable to parse sentence
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19:58:24  <Zuu_> Last three words are the name of a game script.
19:59:17  <frosch123> you should ask somewhere where people actually play :p
19:59:35  <Zuu_> Maybe Im as Andy on picking descriptive names ;)
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20:00:26  <Zuu_> Good point frosh123
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20:18:35  <Zuu_> Hmm those at #tycoon claim that they haven't discused anything TTD related since 2005. I guess I should just use my imagnation or join a game server.
20:19:30  <orudge> Well, that's not quite true.
20:19:37  <orudge> But it's mostly a "chat" channel these days
20:19:41  <orudge> rather than a "TTD chat" channel.
20:19:46  <orudge> Very occasionally TTD discussion occurs. :p
20:21:37  <Zuu_> Okay
20:27:22  <andythenorth> I went in there once
20:27:29  <andythenorth> it didn't seem like my kind of place
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20:27:46  <andythenorth> seemed a fair chance that I might argue with people
20:27:54  <andythenorth> or as I like to call them, 'idiots' :P
20:30:18  <frosch123> lol, zuu tried #tycoon after my comment :p
20:30:29  <frosch123> now i feel really sorry
20:30:40  <frosch123> noone should be sent to #tycoon :p
20:30:51  <Zuu_> :)
20:33:21  <Zuu_> Hehe I thought that they might be playing the game but it turned out to be an equivalent of the off-topic forum.
20:33:54  <frosch123> yup
20:34:21  <Prof_Frink> Zuu_: Don't be a silly. We make *far* less sense.
20:35:44  <Zuu_> Sorry for overestimating you :)
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20:41:45  <Zuu_> Oh,.... so that was a disconnect button. XD
20:43:37  <Zuu_> Did I told you that Im out of ideas on what to kill the last hour at the train with. :p
20:46:55  <__ln__> sounds violent
20:48:24  <Zuu_> Maybe I rephased "to kill some time" badly.
20:49:30  <Rhamphoryncus> uhh.. huh.  Well that's amusingly wrong.  Vertol in aviator set having slings?  Nice.  Having the occasional gmund mog as the sling for engineering supplies?  Also nice.  Delivering a gmond mog to an oil platform?  Not so nice.  ;)
20:49:59  <andythenorth> heh
20:50:04  <andythenorth> blame me for that
20:50:13  <andythenorth> I asked Pikka to add it :)
20:50:18  <Rhamphoryncus> lol
20:51:27  <Pikka> maybe they're using it to plug a hole :)
20:51:55  <Rhamphoryncus> I should join #tycoon.  If you're afraid of having an argument then either I'll be completely fine.. or I'll cause a riot and be banned from the server.
20:51:56  <Rhamphoryncus> lol
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20:53:35  <Rhamphoryncus> Ooh, that one looks like a tractor
20:55:15  <Rhamphoryncus> I need to con someone into making a fantasy ships newgrf.  Nuclear barges that can outrun small aircraft :D
20:56:29  <andythenorth> ask V453000
20:56:50  <V453000> im for sure not making ships newGRF :p
20:57:22  <Rhamphoryncus> hehe
20:57:37  <Rhamphoryncus> Is FISH really supposed to give all ships at 1870 and have them last forever?
20:59:07  <andythenorth> 'supposed'
20:59:09  <andythenorth> hmm
20:59:26  <andythenorth> is your question about an ideal world, or a 'get things done' workd?
20:59:29  <andythenorth> world /s
20:59:52  <Rhamphoryncus> Conscious decision is fine with me :)
21:00:58  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm just going to amuse myself with using ferries and paddle steamers to transport oil
21:01:48  <FLHerne> Hmm..last time I played, UKRS2 Polybulk hoppers carried milk...
21:01:48  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: 1870 gave me ships to play with in my 1870-start games
21:01:57  <andythenorth> ideally I'd draw more ships :P
21:02:03  * Rhamphoryncus nods
21:02:04  <andythenorth> it's not 1.0 yet right?
21:02:11  <andythenorth> all crimes are forgiven < 1.0
21:02:19  <FLHerne> Is this fixed in FIRS 0.7/UKRS Beta?
21:02:21  <Rhamphoryncus> I am using it so I'm not complaining :)
21:02:35  *** LordAro [] has joined #openttd
21:02:44  <andythenorth> FLHerne: you have no idea of how many worms are under that can lid you're opening....
21:02:51  <Zuu_>  Hello Lord
21:02:52  <Rhamphoryncus> I also have sailing ships but they expired a while back
21:02:53  <LordAro> evenings
21:03:15  <FLHerne> Cargo classes do seem a bit odd
21:03:32  <Yexo> you have no idea.... ;)
21:03:38  <FLHerne> Some combinations seem questionable at best...
21:03:52  <Yexo> but yes, you're right, they are questionable
21:04:01  <Yexo> and there have been a lot of very long discussions about the subject
21:04:13  <planetmaker> with emphasis on _long_
21:04:22  <planetmaker> not necessarily resulting in anything ;-)
21:05:00  <Rhamphoryncus> Clearly we need to have more of them
21:05:10  <Rhamphoryncus> (The floggings will continue until morale improves.)
21:06:48  <LordAro> can anyone tell me how to use templates properly?
21:08:04  <rane>
21:08:06  <rane> what's the number?
21:08:06  <Yexo> what is your exact problem?
21:08:18  <Yexo> rane: the length of the train in tiles
21:08:37  <Yexo> if you don't use any newgrfs, the length of every engine and wagon is half a tile
21:08:56  <Yexo> you can use it to easily see whether a vehicle fits in a certain station or not
21:09:17  <Yexo> <Yexo> what is your exact problem? <- LordAro: that was for you
21:09:31  <rane> cool thanks
21:11:53  <Zuu_> It used to be a bit more complicate, but now it just shows the length in tiles.
21:12:25  <LordAro> Yexo: "...settings_gui.cpp:124:72: error: wrong number of template arguments (2, should be 3)"
21:12:44  <Yexo> which line is that?
21:13:59  <LordAro> "const BaseSet<class Tbase_set, size_t Tnum_files, bool Tsearch_in_tars>* baseset; ///< View the textfile of this BaseSet."
21:15:30  <Yexo> I'll apply your patch and make some fixes
21:15:50  <LordAro> thanks :)
21:18:43  <LordAro> note that my usage of the 'templates' differs throughout the patch, due to my attempted fixes :)
21:19:47  <LordAro> sorry :)
21:21:25  <Yexo> I'll apply your patch and make some fixes
21:23:17  <Yexo> LordAro: this compiles, I didn't test it
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21:24:22  <LordAro> thank ye kindly :D
21:24:42  <LordAro> it did work before i tried to use the templates (for sound + music), so it should be fine
21:24:50  <LordAro> _should_
21:24:59  <Yexo> the testing part is for you :)
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21:25:51  <morph`> 1.2.0 coming out tomorrow omg omg?
21:26:18  <Yexo> where did you hear that myth?
21:26:46  <morph`>
21:27:25  *** Zuu_ [] has quit [Quit: Bye]
21:28:02  <morph`> I hoped someone would respond with "Omg how did you know?"
21:28:03  <morph`> :(
21:28:09  <morph`> Was worth a try
21:28:35  <Yexo> look at the release dates for 1.1, 1.0 and 0.7
21:28:42  <Yexo> might give you a clue :p
21:29:35  <morph`> OMG, I just found OpenTTD+Yogscast
21:29:40  <morph`> 2 of my favorite things
21:30:46  <morph`> Damn, April Fools day is so far away
21:30:48  <morph`> :(
21:31:09  <planetmaker> you know... there's an 1.2.0-RC2...
21:31:17  <planetmaker> and there are always nightly builds
21:31:23  <planetmaker> so... why do you wait?
21:31:30  <planetmaker> why do you care for a release date? :-)
21:31:38  <morph`> Because Im a caring person
21:31:47  <morph`> I cuddle stuff
21:32:02  <morph`> I cuddle this-
21:32:12  <morph`> Nothing cuter on deviantart
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21:35:26  <andythenorth> planetmaker: wrt classes, the discussion *did* result in agreeing they're "done" for FIRS :)
21:35:44  <andythenorth> and that we don't mangle them to support legacy vehicle sets
21:36:12  <planetmaker> yes. Actually it also led to deprecate the two related properties in NML
21:36:16  <andythenorth> and that labels are the only guaranteed support method :)
21:36:28  <andythenorth> and that classes are for future, unknown cargos, not known cargos :)
21:36:33  <planetmaker> so it had some positive effect
21:36:54  <andythenorth> and that the XOR mask was fricking insane for normal humans, however sane it seemed at the time
21:37:41  <andythenorth> but probably, milk still goes by covered hopper in UKRS 2 ;)
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21:42:46  <LordAro> Yexo: it works! :D
21:43:45  * LordAro submits patch to flyspray
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21:53:36  <LordAro> @fs 5099
21:53:36  <DorpsGek> LordAro:
21:53:41  <LordAro> ^ there you go :)
21:54:22  <frosch123> :)
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21:54:51  <planetmaker> :-)
21:55:02  <planetmaker> Someone found frosch's list of wanted features :-)
21:55:14  <LordAro> indeed :P
21:55:33  <frosch123> yeah, proscription also seems to work for patches :p
21:56:03  <planetmaker> haha :-)
21:56:07  <LordAro> only took me a couple of evenings :)
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22:04:14  <andythenorth> I don't much like this:
22:04:23  <andythenorth> from pixa.pixa import ham, eggs, foo, bar
22:04:31  <andythenorth> pixa.pixa seems redundant
22:04:46  <andythenorth> :P
22:04:50  <valhallasw> andythenorth: it is.
22:05:05  <andythenorth> other than splitting all my code (undesirable)
22:05:08  <andythenorth> what can I do?
22:05:15  <valhallasw> andythenorth: you can solve it by having    from pixa import ham, eggs, foo, bar    in pixa/
22:05:35  <valhallasw> at least, I'm guessing you have in a subdir called pixa
22:05:43  <andythenorth> yup
22:05:46  <valhallasw> or even   'from pixa import *' in the
22:05:54  <andythenorth> import * is bad form?
22:06:11  <valhallasw> it's ok for an
22:06:19  <valhallasw> although I prefer the explicit import
22:06:49  <valhallasw> but especially if it's a single import it's OK, as it is clear where the names in the namespace are imported from
22:07:27  <andythenorth> \o/
22:11:26  <frosch123> night
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22:14:24  <andythenorth> bed pour moi
22:14:34  <andythenorth> ciao
22:18:35  <Arafangion> valhallasw: Trouble is... *today* it's a single import, *tomorrow* you need a new module.
22:19:34  <LordAro> night all
22:20:00  <Arafangion> 'import *' is generally very much frowned upon.
22:21:23  *** LordAro [] has quit [Quit: "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."]
22:21:58  <valhallasw> Arafangion: import * is very generally used for
22:23:58  <valhallasw> the stdlib always uses explicit import as far as I can see, but e.g. django uses import * very often for __init__s
22:24:35  <Arafangion> valhallasw: Ah, django - I don't have much experience with that, but I'll conceed you could do far worse than have import * in
22:25:24  <valhallasw> it's somewhat annoying if you don't have a good debugger/IDE, but it's not that much of a pain - and it's significantly less maintenance effort
22:25:30  <valhallasw> for django, that is
22:26:02  <valhallasw> then again, explicit is better than implicit [/zen of python]
22:26:41  <Arafangion> valhallasw: If there are lots of things I want from a given python module, I tend to prefer the 'import whatever as wh', and optionally followed by: 'foo, bar, baz =,, wh.baz', although I'm undecided about the latter.
22:27:34  <valhallasw> Arafangion: I generally do 'import whatever' followed by 'from whatever import foo, bar, baz' in those cases
22:28:11  <Arafangion> That's not so bad either, I should find out just how much slower that is.
22:29:35  <Arafangion> A big concern with 'import *''s, is what if they define a global you have come to expect, or redefine something from another module that you expected to have.
22:31:02  *** Rhamphoryncus [] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus]
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22:31:13  <Arafangion> Eg, you could confuse os.walk with os.path.walk.
22:31:30  <valhallasw> Arafangion: I'm guessing it's not much slower, as a second import does not run any code. It might be different if you use import hooks, though.
22:31:44  <Arafangion> valhallasw: Yeah, I have all my code in a .zip :)
22:32:20  <Arafangion> But the second import does more stuff, it differs if eg, foo, bar, baz are submodules.
22:32:27  <Arafangion> My form wouldn't import them, but yours would.
22:34:37  <valhallasw> yep, that's true
22:35:13  <Arafangion> But my biggest, biggest concern, really, is that * imports tend to cause too much confusion.
22:35:21  <Arafangion> Especially with duplicate symbol names.
22:35:57  <Arafangion> Especially if someone, somewhere redefines str(), which gets import *'ed into a module, which you then import *.
22:36:04  <Arafangion> Just gets really messy.
22:36:49  <valhallasw> Yep. But again, that mainly is a problem for generic code, not so much for __init__s.
22:39:34  <Arafangion> True, but do consider that the main thing that brought this on is the annoyance of having a pixa.pixa setup.
22:40:06  <Arafangion> Which is a somewhat...  Odd setup.
22:40:12  <Arafangion> Yikes, look at the time!
22:40:20  * Arafangion gets ready for work! Thanks for the chat! :)
22:40:30  <valhallasw> *grin*
22:40:33  <valhallasw> time for bed here :-)
22:40:40  <valhallasw> have a nice day!
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22:46:02  <Terkhen> good night
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23:15:51  <Eddi|zuHause> why not just rename pixa/ to pixa/
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