Log for #openttd on 15th March 2012:
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01:18:02  <Pikka> Rubidium: any advance on bananas?
01:19:14  <Pinkbeast> Is there a guide to "drawing locomotives for oafs" anywhere?
01:19:34  <Pikka> one or two
01:21:01  <Pikka> I have sprite templates at , for getting the dimensions correct.  I think purno used to have a general drawing guide somewhere.
01:21:10  <Pinkbeast> Thanks.
01:23:34  <Pinkbeast> Coo, someone's drawing the Leader?
01:24:29  <Pikka> oberhÃŒmer, it would seem
01:26:05  <Pinkbeast> How do you stat up a one-off experimental locomotive that never quite worked?
01:26:21  <Pikka> what locomotive did you have in mind?
01:26:57  <Pikka> Leader?
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01:27:39  <Pinkbeast> It's an example, yeah, or (say) LNER No. 10000 or _Duke of Gloucester_
01:28:49  <Pikka> well, in all those cases I'd say the stats are either known or make-up-able.
01:29:27  <Pikka> never-quite-working is quite hard to represent in OTTD though
01:30:11  <Pikka> all you can do is increase costs, or perhaps increase reliability decay (although since most people play with breakdowns off that won't have much of an effect)
01:31:06  <xiong> Max speed 0.
01:31:29  <Pinkbeast> I noticed the UKRS+ has quite a few things that weren't actually mass produced and I guess we're basically on the honour system not to build a hundred of them. :-)
01:32:51  <Pikka> not necessarily, there's no reason you have to follow reality.  the reasons why things weren't mass produced in real life don't necessarily affect the world of TTD.
01:33:34  <Pikka> but yes, a lot of the more esoteric vehicles in UKRS+ won't make it to the main set even as extended locos, for that reason. :)
01:36:42  <Pinkbeast> Thanks for the pointer to the templates, anyway - I'm off to bed.
01:37:53  <Pikka> seeya
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03:00:29  <Mazur> Oh, great work, guys, now we can't place signs while the server is paused anymore, I can't vote on PS until a second victim stumbles in.
03:01:38  <Mazur> That used to be a great plus during paused state: one could at least plaec signs at problem spots or errors to come back to later.
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04:38:14  <Pikka> what actions to allow while paused is a config option, Mazur.  Don't blame the devs if your server isn't set up correctly. :)
04:38:56  <Mazur> Duly noted, so I apologise for my wrongly directed outburst.
04:40:49  <Mazur> Alas it's not my server, but the Public Server, so I'll jut have to exert patience.
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06:05:04  <Rubidium> Pikka: if support for grf container v2 is advance, then yes
06:18:06  <Pikka> hmm
06:18:16  <Pikka> support for uploading my grf would be nice :)
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06:41:19  <xiong> Pikka, link me.
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07:10:11  <Pikka> wat
07:13:47  <peter1138> wut
07:15:15  <Pikka> I don't know what xiong wanted me to link him to
07:16:58  <xiong> <Pikka> support for uploading my grf would be nice :)
07:17:21  <Pikka> yes, and what am I linking you to?  the grf?
07:17:23  <xiong> If I see it, I might give it my support.
07:17:50  <xiong> I'm assuming you have the development work somewhere online. That might not be true.
07:18:10  <Pikka>
07:18:17  * xiong looks
07:19:39  <xiong> You're talking about UKRS? I'm a Yank, I play NARS; but I'm aware that UKRS is very well respected. In what way might you feel unappreciated?
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07:20:06  <Pikka> in the way that when I try to upload it to bananas, it gives me an error message :)
07:20:16  <Pikka> thanks for the support, but it's more of a technical issue ;)
07:20:23  <Pikka> good morning andy
07:20:26  <xiong> Ah. Wrong support.
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08:00:37  <Pikka> it's not /that/ difficult a concept, it is?
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08:13:57  <andythenorth> anyway, so if infra is ever released, how long before it's pulled in a drama?
08:15:01  <drvanon_> hey people, I've been playing openttd for a while now (bout two months) and ALWAYS lose to AdmiralAI, is it impossible or did anybody beat it?
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08:22:40  <andythenorth> Pikka: what Quast65 has done is exactly what SAC did last year that I had a most dull and upsetting argument with her about
08:22:51  <andythenorth> minus the drama
08:23:10  <andythenorth> he shouldn't really be doing it
08:23:52  <andythenorth> and I'm a hypocrite if I don't say so :P
08:24:05  <andythenorth> it's not really about copyright
08:24:37  <andythenorth> taking graphics that you can't or won't release for reason xyz, modifying them, then posting screenshots all over the forum just creates boring drama
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08:24:56  <Zuu> drvanon_: Yes it is possible.
08:25:33  <Zuu> It is not always the winner in AI battles, so sure it is possible to beat it. :-)
08:25:38  <andythenorth> "it's a source of boring drama" should be enough reason to not do something
08:25:59  <Zuu> Also, I know there are players that complain that all AIs are to easy to beat.
08:26:00  <andythenorth> [except for trolling BROS, which I should be allowed to do]
08:27:34  <planetmaker> drvanon_: it's definitely feasible to beat every existing AI
08:27:38  <dihedral> good morning gents
08:27:51  <planetmaker> offer your services over more than the mere minimum distance
08:28:03  <planetmaker> And don't expect to be better in the first 10 years of gameplay
08:28:12  <planetmaker> (that is ingame years)
08:29:11  * andythenorth -> work
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08:30:00  <planetmaker> Pikka: what quast does is perfectly ok as long as he doesn't release anything but screenshots
08:30:05  <planetmaker> with whatever sprites posted
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09:19:08  <Arafangion> Sad... seems down.
09:19:13  * Arafangion wonders what he should do with his life.
09:24:51  <dihedral> ponder less, do more
09:25:40  <Arafangion> Heh.
09:25:44  <Arafangion> It's been a long day. :)
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09:29:08  <valhallasw> Arafangion: works for me
09:29:28  <valhallasw> try connecting to directly
09:30:02  <Arafangion> valhallasw: I just got in, actualyl - I think at least one of the round-robin servers is down.
09:30:17  <Arafangion> valhallasw: Oddly, it would time out just after the ident check, so it'd /connect/ fine.
09:30:44  <valhallasw> that's weird indeed
09:31:13  <Arafangion> Very.  I'm not sure if the fault is freenode... Or my ISP - I suspect the later. :(
09:31:15  <Arafangion> *latter
09:33:39  <xiong> Sorry; I can't seem to tease this out, though it should be trivial. What's the console command to set the current game year?
09:34:10  <xiong> I know I can do this from the cheat menu but it's quite tedious, especially when moving 50 or 100 years.
09:34:48  <xiong> setdate, setyear, set date, set year -- none work.
09:35:19  <xiong> Also, it seems list_vars is no longer a command!
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09:40:21  <Arafangion> Wow - what works *amzing* in thai curry: anchovies!
09:43:35  <Pikka> there isn't one as far as I know, xiong
09:43:55  <xiong> How odd.
09:44:20  <xiong> Well, not a major issue, merely a missing feature.
09:45:47  <xiong> Now I think I've stumbled on something truly weird. Somewhere along the line, the default rail bridge got weird. When I do not load TTRS, I get a rail bridge of the modern "self-supporting" type, even in 1850, although it's advertised as "suspension".
09:46:16  <xiong> When I do load TTRS and set the parameter to use the TTRS bridges, I get... the same exact thing.
09:46:56  <xiong> When I load TTRS and set the parameter to allow "default" bridges, then I get things that look like suspension bridges... except they're a tad messed up.
09:47:00  <xiong> Bug or feature?
09:47:24  <Pikka> I imagine that the OpenGFX bridges are derived from TTRS
09:47:34  <Pikka> but the "default" sprites in TTRS are original TTD
09:48:27  <Pikka> so without TTRS, you still see TTRS graphics because they were used for OpenGFX, and with the "default" bridges you get bits of the OpenGFX bridges with TTRS's original "default" sprite bits mixed in.
09:49:00  <Pikka> I don't know because I don't use OpenGFX or TTRS. :)
09:50:51  <planetmaker> xiong: TTRS and OpenGFX share some bridges. Pikka's explanation is right to my knowledge
09:51:35  <xiong> Pikka, planetmaker, that is *precisely* what I'd been thinking.
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09:52:44  <planetmaker> technically probably TTRS' assumption of 'default' is kinda flawed or should be renamed to 'TTD bridges'
09:53:16  <xiong> Well, me being a hardnosed basterd, I think I should go look for alternatives to OpenGFX. I've been driving these ancient wood-fired steamers over self-supporting bridges long enough.
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09:54:10  <Pikka> it's not opengfx's fault, it's just TTD's default bridge selection, which don't anticipate start dates of 1850.
09:54:29  <xiong> What interests me, planetmaker, is that TTRS 'default' is a *copy* of some older sprite set; not merely disabling TTRS's own sprites.
09:54:51  <xiong> Well, care to suggest an alternative?
09:55:04  <Pikka> xiong: TTRS dates from before opengfx, when the default graphics were all there was.
09:55:07  <planetmaker> it's probably trying to 'fix' something in the TTD sprites. Or adjust to its own stuff
09:55:22  <xiong> It would be nice if the suspension bridges were suspension bridges... and while I'm at it, if the wooden bridges were wooden.
09:55:43  <planetmaker> xiong: improvements for the bridge sprites are always welcome
09:55:58  <Pikka> or find the TTD graphics somewhere and use those. :)
09:56:07  <planetmaker> tbh, I'm more likely to fix OpenGFX than TTRS. If it's just for the pain of fixing things :-)
09:56:09  <xiong> That's it, eh?
09:56:19  <planetmaker> s/fix/change/
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09:56:54  <xiong> I was afraid that there wouldn't be too many base sets floating around.
09:57:15  <planetmaker> exactly two
09:57:33  <Pikka> xiong: if you don't want suspension bridges in 1850, there's my "Expensive, Short and Slow Bridges" on bananas.  but be warned it does what it says on the tin. :)
09:57:47  <planetmaker> and meanwhile the TTD base set is what makes progress extremely difficult
09:57:48  <Pikka> it doesn't do anything with the graphics, just changes the stats of the bridges.
09:57:57  <planetmaker> it has IMHO become a burden
09:58:16  <Pikka> how so, planetmaker?
09:58:18  <xiong> I'm not sure I follow.
09:58:40  <planetmaker> you can't extent specs easily. As you can't properly adjust those graphics for copyright reasons
09:59:19  <planetmaker> Thinking of things like 45° rotated bridges, rotated stuff for airports, stations and alike
09:59:32  <planetmaker> doing that is very very grayscale at least
10:00:00  <Pikka> rotated airports at least shouldn't be in the base set.  leave it to newgrfs.
10:00:10  <planetmaker> default rotated airports should
10:00:29  <Pikka> the default airports shouldn't be rotated
10:00:35  <planetmaker> as should the game by default support vehicles which refit and alike
10:00:52  <planetmaker> The default experience with OpenTTD is *severely* limited by the backward compatibility to newgrfs
10:01:08  <planetmaker> and it's more so that base sets can't even be extended
10:01:22  <planetmaker> and yes, the default game should allow to rotate airports. Why not?
10:01:36  <planetmaker> newgrfs should define *new* stuff
10:01:52  <Pikka> different airport alignments are new stuff
10:01:56  <planetmaker> (or change existing). But rotations is just...
10:02:01  <planetmaker> but rotation is not alignment
10:02:55  <planetmaker> the point is: the default OpenTTD is kinda crippled wrt what the game can do
10:02:55  <xiong> Um, surely the TTD base set can simply be ignored? It's... very old.
10:03:53  <xiong> Just ship the game with OpenGFX and leave it at that.
10:04:40  <xiong> I mean, what virtue to remain compatible with the older stuff? If OpenGFX is flawed, improve that. No?
10:04:40  <planetmaker> The most important points are that vehicles don't allow refit, tracks have no snow transition, bridges have no snow transition (or snow at all), Stations know no snow, airports know no ground and rotation, default objects know no snow
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10:04:53  <planetmaker> all this should be available when you install OpenTTD out-of-box
10:05:02  <planetmaker> and at the same time this should not break any NewGRF
10:05:52  <xiong> Um. Well, if I talk much longer, I'm going to make a fool of myself. I know nothing about the code. I can imagine but that's not the same. What I do know is graphics.
10:05:58  <Pikka> because it's the base graphics, xiong
10:06:23  <Pikka> the functionality should be identical so that people using different base sets can play together in multiplayer, basically.
10:06:44  <planetmaker> Pikka: yes. But that's exactly where TTD is a burden: we cannot extent the set
10:06:45  <xiong> Well, I wouldn't. I'd just toss the old bad stuff overboard.
10:07:24  <planetmaker> people using those sprites without permission is one thing. Using it in the OpenTTD repository is another
10:07:39  <Pikka> so why does it need to be in the openttd repository?
10:07:51  <Pikka> the current TTD grf files aren't.
10:08:13  <planetmaker> exactly. But these changes I just listed, need new sprites. In openttd.grf. Which is... part of OpenTTD
10:08:20  <xiong> Um, can I ask about something I *might* understand? Why not just draw better graphics for a base graphics set?
10:08:28  <planetmaker> which is the extra newgrf without which the TTD base set would not work at all
10:08:43  <planetmaker> it's an extra grf of several thousands of sprites
10:09:08  <planetmaker> thus the TTD base set actually receives currently extra care by having 1/5 of it directly in the openttd sources
10:09:19  <planetmaker> of those sprites which were not shipped with TTD
10:09:25  <Pikka> yes
10:09:46  <Pikka> but why does any extended original TTD graphics base set need to be in the openttd sources?
10:10:15  <planetmaker> yep. Do you make a TTD base set?
10:10:35  <Pikka> you publish the updated opengfx, someone else takes the TTD base set, adds the required shenanigans and puts it somewhere else.  I feel like I might have just volunteered...
10:10:42  <xiong> Yes, I'm totally confused. Why not just push the old TTD graphics, which aren't even legal, over the cliff? And if OpenGFX needs work, do that.
10:11:02  <planetmaker> the point is, you may not simply use the TTD sprites, and distribute them... but yes, that would work
10:11:46  <planetmaker> xiong: politics :-) You can't imagine the outcry that would cause
10:11:52  <Pikka> xiong: because the old TTD graphics make the game look like TTD, and the OpenGFX graphics make the game look like crap.
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10:12:03  <planetmaker> @kick Pikka (sorry)
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10:12:24  <xiong> What?
10:12:24  <Pikka> just my opinion, of course :)
10:12:38  <planetmaker> sorry to say, but you're a rude ass
10:12:54  <planetmaker> sometimes
10:12:55  <Pikka> well, they do, and I say that as someone who has contributed to opengfx
10:13:27  <Pikka> it's very graphically inconsistent, and a lot of it was rushed for the release.
10:13:33  <xiong> Look, please try to forget I'm an ignorant idiot. Leave aside the issue of whether TTD loyalists will ever assent to having that go away. May I please ask why OpenGFX cannot be fixed?
10:13:39  <planetmaker> well. Why not then help make it better?
10:13:47  <planetmaker> I always hear all kind of people say that.
10:13:51  <xiong> That's what I'm asking!
10:13:52  <Pikka> because I'm quite happy with the TTD graphics, planetmaker.
10:14:00  <planetmaker> But *no one* actually does something about that
10:14:15  <xiong> You're talking as if I'm not even here.
10:14:19  <planetmaker> But as we just found out: they limit what's possible meanwhile
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10:14:35  <Pikka> well
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10:14:45  <xiong> Is the problem drawing or coding?
10:14:48  <planetmaker> xiong: OpenGFX can be fixed. It needs simply people who work on the graphics
10:15:10  <planetmaker> who consistently and persistently work on them
10:15:23  <planetmaker> not like "I fix this sprite and then I'm off again"
10:15:32  <xiong> Well... how many times have I said: I have experience and willingness.
10:15:46  <planetmaker> xiong: so what stops you?
10:15:48  <dihedral> and not people who just complain "it looks like crap" and dont do anything towards it :-P
10:16:07  <xiong> I have no understanding of the code; and, quite honestly, no interest.
10:16:16  <planetmaker> see.
10:16:19  <xiong> I'm willing to draw all day long.
10:16:37  <dihedral> xiong, do a joint work: you draw, someone else codes
10:16:40  <planetmaker> well. For starters I can imagine houses can be improved a lot
10:17:20  <xiong> I'm an experienced engineer and yes, I do have software skills. But I've seen various bits of OpenTTD and NewGRF code and it's just alien. I have no background in that stuff.
10:17:30  <xiong> It's been 25 years since I wrote any C.
10:17:34  <Pikka> dihedral: I do something towards it insofar as when people say "can we use your sprites" I say "yes".  but I don't use opengfx so there's no real interest there for me.
10:17:44  <planetmaker> xiong: opengfx is basically no code. Just sprites
10:18:03  <xiong> Yah well, that's what people told me about NewGRFs.
10:18:08  <planetmaker> and there's no c code in it at all
10:18:16  <planetmaker> xiong: base sets are no NewGRFs
10:18:32  <xiong> Sorry, I don't want to be argumentative.
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10:19:13  <Pikka> planetmaker: well, if orudge is willing to host it, I'm willing to commit to TTD-ifying any changes to the base set you want to make.
10:19:29  <orudge> what what
10:19:35  <Pikka> you heard
10:20:06  <Pikka> discussion on how the TTD base set is holding back openttd because it means base sets can't be expanded.
10:20:20  <orudge> well, I can host anything you may wish to be hosted that is TTD-related
10:20:47  <Pikka> even though it's possibly copyright infringing? (ie, is the original TTD grfs)
10:21:06  <planetmaker> orudge: the (my) argument was more in direction of "the TTD base set is difficult to expand as it requires to make derivatives of the TTD sprites"
10:21:11  <xiong> May I ask if anyone has tried to *fix* the copyright issue? The game is very old.
10:21:23  <planetmaker> which are problematic to put into openttd's repo into openttd.grf in excessive amounts
10:21:41  <planetmaker> xiong: you may. The answer to the implied question is: multiple people have
10:21:47  <orudge> Pikka: oh, so you're wanting to modify the original base graphics?
10:21:56  <Pikka> yes
10:21:57  <dihedral> xiong, i have had contact to the copyright holder
10:21:58  <planetmaker> tried to find someone who is responsible / is the copyright holder
10:22:19  <planetmaker> Pikka: so you're willing to spend time there but not help make the legal alternative better? :-(
10:22:19  <dihedral> or at least the agency that claims to hold the copyright in the name of the client
10:22:35  <Pikka> I quite like the original graphics, planetmaker :)
10:22:45  <Pikka> and have made plenty of derivatives of them of my own (eg, TaI)...
10:23:08  <dihedral> i quite liked my AMD K2 400MHz - but it was time to move on
10:23:21  <orudge> Pikka: well, I don't see that it's especially different to some of the graphics sets in the past that I'm sure have used little bits of TTD sprites, rightly or wrongly. My assumption is you're mostly going to be adding new things, maybe adapting older sprites a little?
10:23:33  <orudge> but well, I'm sure something can be arranged
10:23:39  <xiong> I'd think that would be straightforward. WP says: "The brand (MicroProse) is currently owned by Interactive Game Group."
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10:24:14  <planetmaker> orudge: it might indeed be interesting. It'd get the base sets completely out of OpenTTD's source
10:24:40  <xiong>
10:24:42  <swissfan91> morning all
10:24:58  <Pikka> doesn't mean anything, xiong.  just because they own a brand name doesn't mean they own anything else.
10:25:15  <dihedral> they are not the copyright holder ;-)
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10:26:09  <xiong> I don't mean to be rude... but I do tend to think... at right angles to others. If you were willing to give me a hearing, you might find I'm able to think of a likely line of approach.
10:26:20  <orudge> planetmaker: well, if it's going to work out better for everybody in the end, allowing better developments, then it seems like it may be a plan. But I've not been following the conversation so am not entirely sure as to what is planned to be changed.
10:26:34  <xiong> I'm not smarter than the next guy but I find things he doesn't... sometimes.
10:26:36  <planetmaker> nothing so far, orudge
10:26:42  <planetmaker> Just my very personal thoughts
10:26:59  <swissfan91> I have a problem with the graphics I am drawing - the coder I am using says they are 32bpp True Colours instead of 8bpp... we're using the same palette so I have no idea what to do?
10:27:37  <planetmaker> swissfan91: using the palette image for drawing doesn't mean the graphics file is automatically in a paletted format
10:27:47  <dihedral> i still have an email from the agency of CS - if you are interested
10:28:14  <xiong> Can the base graphics set support the two extra zoom levels?
10:28:22  <planetmaker> you have to explicitly choose to make an image file which uses a particular palette, swissfan91
10:28:30  <planetmaker> how - that depends on the programme you use
10:28:36  <planetmaker> MS Paint is no such programme
10:28:45  <swissfan91> :P
10:28:49  <planetmaker> xiong: yes. Actually all 5
10:28:55  <planetmaker> extra zoom levels
10:28:58  <dihedral> anybody here familiar with google sitemap generator?
10:28:59  <xiong> 5?
10:29:02  <planetmaker> in both 8bpp and 32bpp
10:29:07  <planetmaker> yes. 5.
10:29:18  <planetmaker> 4x, 2x, (1x) 0.5x, 0.25x, 0.125x
10:29:21  <xiong> Now I'm confused. I'm not sure how you count zoom.
10:29:50  <xiong> Okay then; sorry. To me, that's 2 extra zoom (zoom in) levels.
10:30:08  <xiong> I mean, if you zoom out, that's another animal.
10:30:41  <xiong> I ask because I adore the zoom in. My old eyes really benefit... and I've been here to say Thank You to whoever cooked it up.
10:31:25  <xiong> And even with the standard 1x graphics, the extra zoom is great. But if I were to work on new graphics, I'd really prefer to support the extra zoom properly.
10:32:04  <planetmaker> of course. That makes much sense to do so
10:32:34  <swissfan91> how do you mean support the EZ properly?
10:32:49  <xiong> What about the palette issue? I've done a lot of work with indexed color; I can do more. But it is... difficult.
10:33:02  <planetmaker> Actually there's a whole big pile of work waiting on the graphics front: all existing stuff needs a proper 32bpp version. Which probably best is based on a blender object which is rendered in the various zoom levels
10:33:28  <planetmaker> and the 8bpp could need some work on consistency. And extra zoom for at least some sprites, too
10:33:49  <xiong> Well, blender!
10:33:50  <planetmaker> It needs foremost artists work. But for sure I can't code all that alone either
10:34:05  <xiong> Ha ha, in my day we squeezed out each pixel by hand.
10:34:08  <planetmaker> blender is not needed. But rendering might make it easy to get different zoom levels
10:34:21  <planetmaker> mostly artist's choice, I'd say
10:34:40  <swissfan91> planetmaker: as I use what are my options? include a palette with the sprites?
10:34:44  <xiong> No, I'd love to do 3D.
10:35:17  <planetmaker> no idea how that programme works, swissfan91. IIRC it doesn't support palettes properly
10:35:21  <xiong> swissfan91, Chuck that and use The Gimp.
10:35:30  <planetmaker> but I never used it. But failed over two days to go through that with DanMacK
10:35:46  <planetmaker> thus wrong tool, swissfan91 ;-)
10:35:51  <xiong> Yah.
10:36:14  <swissfan91> hmmm, so when tutorials state that a program as simple as mspaint can be used to draw sprites - they'll always result in 32bpp graphics?
10:37:06  <planetmaker> well. I don't know. Obviously they then miss either a manual (where you can look up how to use palettes - you did search there first, did you?!). And / or mentioning it in the tutorial
10:37:13  <xiong> swissfan91, The reason I've been asking about colors and the base graphics set is that indexed color is tricky. You need to use the right tools, you need to use them properly; and you need to have a grasp of underlying color theory.
10:38:10  <xiong> Even with years of experience, I've gotten weird results on occasion. Not everyone sorts the color table the same way.
10:38:20  <swissfan91> planetmaker: I asked various people about palettes before I started drawing. After much stupidity from myself, I was sent a palette that I was told was suitable - so I used that.
10:38:41  <swissfan91> xiong: underlying color theory is something I must lack!
10:38:57  <planetmaker> swissfan91: how "was sent a palette"?
10:39:26  <swissfan91> I was linked to one - I can't remember. All I know is, I have a palette in my drawing folder that I open and use the colours from?
10:39:28  <planetmaker> just using a colour picker on doesn't cut it
10:39:35  <planetmaker> it's an image format which needs be different
10:39:41  <swissfan91> oh..
10:40:11  <xiong> swissfan91, if you install The Gimp I will walk you through indexed color.
10:40:50  <swissfan91> xiong: very kind :)
10:40:53  <xiong> I can't promise you expertise overnight; that comes with experience. But I should be able to get you to the stage of technically acceptable.
10:41:10  <swissfan91> I think I have it installed already
10:41:14  <swissfan91> GIMP 2?
10:41:19  <swissfan91> .6*
10:41:23  <planetmaker> @logs
10:41:23  <DorpsGek> planetmaker:
10:41:54  <xiong> swissfan91, It seems I'm running 2.6, which is probably a bit old.
10:42:13  <xiong> Ah. You've got the same. Well, that's the ticket.
10:42:22  <xiong> There may be a newer version.
10:43:03  <xiong> This is not the best time; it's nearly 4am here. What kind of time are you on, swissfan91?
10:43:40  <swissfan91> I can be free most times for something important :)
10:43:42  <swissfan91> when are you?
10:44:48  <xiong> I'm in San Francisco, -0800 UT. But I work nights; my best time is usually... about 2 hours ago. I often have more time free on Fri and Sat nights.
10:45:34  <swissfan91> well I am in the UK - I could probably get up early and do ~2 hours ago tomorrow?
10:45:34  <planetmaker> gimp 2.6 is not old... it's the current stable
10:45:55  <xiong> Let's not try to nail down a big block of time; that's unrealistic.
10:46:26  <xiong> Let me try to think in terms of London time...
10:46:40  <swissfan91> 8.30am I can be on?
10:46:51  <planetmaker> btw, pikka, wrt your upload issue: it really would help if you could give us a verbatim quote of the error
10:46:54  <swissfan91> so - 12.30am your time
10:47:02  <planetmaker> There's just too many unknowns to poke in the dark otherwise
10:47:12  <Pikka> one sec planetmaker, I'll try it and report back
10:47:56  <planetmaker> ty
10:48:14  <xiong> The thing is, swissfan91, I work nights and my quitting time is unpredictable. I don't want you waiting for me and I'm coming home late... and tired out. Better to shoot for the weekend, if you have time then.
10:48:39  <Pikka> "Unexpected error while uploading."
10:48:54  <planetmaker> hm, that's all?
10:48:57  <Pikka> yep
10:49:05  <swissfan91> I see what you're saying. This weekend, I can do... saturday night/sunday morning
10:49:11  <Pikka> and fwiw andythenorth tried uploading it for me too and got the same error, so it's not on my end.
10:49:23  <swissfan91> unfortunately I have a busy few weekends coming up
10:49:30  <planetmaker> I've no doubt about that. It's something surely in the DB.
10:49:37  <planetmaker> But that's why the exact error matters
10:49:38  <planetmaker> :-)
10:49:43  <Pikka> indeed :)
10:49:44  <xiong> Let's do this: there is already a #gimp channel. Nobody is there so I don't think we'll disturb anyone! /join #gimp and we'll see how we fall out.
10:50:23  <planetmaker> gimp has its own irc server... if you want irc online help
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10:53:56  <swissfan91> planetmaker: I have no idea how much work needs done to me (?) so I can be at a stage when I can open GIMP and start drawing with some colours!
10:54:32  <planetmaker> I don't know either. I just know I learnt the gimp way
10:54:48  <planetmaker> at least sufficiently for me to do some (basic) sprite work
10:55:16  <swissfan91> the coder who I am (gratefully) using has provided me a test grf with some of my graphics in. Although they are in 32bpp - what stops this grf being usable?
10:56:08  <planetmaker> every grf needs 8bpp 1x sprites
10:56:19  <planetmaker> everything else is optional
10:56:41  <planetmaker> thus if the grf works: then the sprites are 8bpp
10:56:53  <planetmaker> or have been converted at some stage from 32bpp to 8bpp
10:56:57  <planetmaker> with the proper palette
10:56:59  <swissfan91> the grf does work - I have placed some pistes ingame.
10:57:13  <planetmaker> then you used the proper 8bpp palette at some stage
10:57:25  <swissfan91> wally must have weaved some magic somewhere :P
10:57:59  <planetmaker> a good graphics programme can convert 32bpp->8bpp without much trouble, if the 32bpp uses the colours of the 8bpp palette
10:58:18  <planetmaker> (exceptions apply)
10:59:00  <swissfan91> I see.
10:59:39  <swissfan91> I wish June would hurry up so I could devote proper amounts of time to this - bloomin' final exams :(
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11:02:15  <swissfan91> planetmaker: are there any specific things you would like to see on a mountain piste ingame? I feel as though I should have a token of thanks for you ingame!
11:03:45  <planetmaker> a hiking hut for the summer?
11:04:26  <swissfan91> I have attempted that before... but they always seem to be too big and look like a barn. Are you thinking of a small hut?
11:04:58  <swissfan91>
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11:06:01  <planetmaker> \o/
11:06:14  <planetmaker> something like that, yes
11:06:41  <planetmaker> something maybe half a dozen or dozen people could stay and have some warmth
11:06:41  <swissfan91> that will definitely be included :)
11:07:11  <Vantalk> Hey guys..srry to interrupt.. game is great but I would like to use the old TT graphics. Is that possible?
11:07:37  <planetmaker> yes. Read section 4 of the readme
11:07:56  <planetmaker> assuming you mean TTD and not TT
11:08:11  <Vantalk> nope.. i really do mean TT and not TTD :(
11:08:42  <planetmaker> then no. You only can use the TTD base sets. Or OpenGFX
11:09:08  <Vantalk> ok thanks for the straight answer :)
11:09:09  <planetmaker> there's somewhere a TTO conversion NewGRF, though
11:09:44  <Vantalk> i shall try to check on that. thank you
11:10:01  <swissfan91> what are your views on a 2x2 newobject that is a mountain peak? so then you can raise a pyramid ingame, flatten the top to 2x2, and place it on top? similar to this:
11:10:03  <swissfan91>
11:10:14  <swissfan91> obviously it would have to be drawn incredibly well..
11:10:39  <planetmaker> mountain top pyramid? Never seen that anywhere
11:10:55  <planetmaker> Rather a summit cross as 1-tile object?
11:11:04  <swissfan91> as in.. if the bottom half of that drawing as OTTD land, and then the top was a newobject.
11:11:27  <planetmaker> you don't need to draw the land. you can just reference there the ground tiles
11:11:41  <swissfan91> so you could say.. have this ingame:
11:11:42  <swissfan91>
11:12:29  <planetmaker> swissfan91: rather than a 2x2 pyramid I'd envision some kind of cliffs, overhangs or steep walls
11:12:44  <planetmaker> as something which is (much) steeper than the normal landscape gradient
11:13:10  <swissfan91> steeper - yes. I may have to draw a quick mock-up to show how I mean..
11:13:16  <swissfan91> maybe start as a 1x1 tile first.
11:15:23  <planetmaker> personally I'd emphasise more smaller steep, stony walls or so which could be placed anywhere on hill sides or slopes
11:15:54  <planetmaker> hm... I maybe should dig out my foot path sprites. They might come in handy for your newgrf.
11:16:07  <planetmaker> they aren't yet finished and need more sprites for all kind of slopes
11:16:21  <planetmaker> (yes, no relation to cliffs, though :-P )
11:16:30  <swissfan91> yes, they would definitely come in handy!
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11:19:58  <planetmaker> hm, seems I have no teaser of that yet
11:23:15  <planetmaker> <-- sprites like these
11:23:24  <planetmaker> I'm not happy with shading, though
11:23:51  <swissfan91> see you're PM planetmaker... that sort of thing I mean
11:23:59  <swissfan91> you could end up with a Peaks of the World object grf
11:24:07  <planetmaker> hm... I might have thought that way too complicated when I worked on it a year ago...
11:25:14  <swissfan91> those footpaths are nice - I have drawn some already but mine are too bright.
11:25:25  <swissfan91> I may steal some colours from yours - is that OK?
11:25:58  <andythenorth> fwiw, if opengfx was the only choice, I'd probably have to figure out how to patch ottd to adjust that :
11:25:59  <andythenorth> :P
11:26:11  <Pikka> andy
11:26:20  <Pikka> you can help me update the TTD grfs then :P
11:26:38  <andythenorth> you know that the correct thing to do is make opengfx better?
11:27:48  <planetmaker> yes, you may use them, if you want, swissfan91
11:28:20  <planetmaker> and wrt the summit: well, maybe yes
11:28:51  <swissfan91> a lot of imagination must be used - especially with that drawing of mine :P
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11:28:59  <swissfan91> but I think as a concept it may have some potential
11:29:07  <planetmaker> but it probably makes sense in a complete landscape tile set for each slope to be stony for mountain ranges
11:29:12  <V453000> hello, how do I upload a newGRF to bananas please?
11:29:28  <planetmaker> as starter you could offer the stony ground sprites for building as new objects additionally to that
11:29:36  <planetmaker> as players can't build the stones ingame
11:29:55  <swissfan91> that's true - but then we lack stoney ground snow transitions..
11:30:35  <planetmaker> well... they're relatively easily created :-)
11:31:12  <swissfan91> I think they may have to be the priority wrt this
11:31:13  <planetmaker> hm... though I don't have yet the stones as separate layer
11:31:42  <planetmaker> I have one big gimp file where most of the landscape sprites are in separate layers
11:31:54  <planetmaker> Thus composing new combinatorical sprites from that is dead easy
11:32:10  <swissfan91> ah, that's good.
11:32:18  <planetmaker> but... no stones in that yet
11:33:38  <V453000> can someone help me with uploading a newGRF to bananas pleasE?
11:34:44  <planetmaker> it's actually all in the OpenGFX repo:
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11:35:06  <planetmaker> but contains also the parts which are needed for OpenGFX+ Landscape
11:35:42  <swissfan91> I see.
11:36:12  <swissfan91> well, I must go to the library and do work. I am skiing next weekend, so I expect I'll come back with all my usual ideas... but this time I'll actually be able to draw them!
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11:36:56  <planetmaker> enjoy
11:37:11  <swissfan91> thanks for your help as always!
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11:41:02  <planetmaker> my pleasure
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12:01:14  <Vantalk> Thank you planetmaker. I tried the TTO full conversion, took a while to understand it and apply. Not 100% converted but i like it a lot better. Thanks again
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13:01:33  <NGC3982> morning.
13:01:36  <NGC3982> oh
13:01:39  <NGC3982> afternoon*.
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15:18:35  <Rhamphoryncus> Noob junction!
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15:37:08  <Nat_aS> that's what junctions look like in the real wold :V
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16:02:59  <swissfan91> afternoon all
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17:43:26  <Terkhen> hello
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18:13:13  <Rubidium> Pikka... where art thee?
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18:14:59  <Eddi|zuHause> plural?
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18:15:59  <__ln__> i wish to register a complaint
18:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause> complaints typically go to "Ablage P" ;)
18:16:22  <planetmaker> or andythenorth does know it, too?
18:16:37  <planetmaker> __ln__: yup, please do. You know. The big round register bin :-P
18:16:59  <__ln__> horizontal scrolling with the mouse does absolutely nothing.
18:17:51  <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be a setting for that
18:17:58  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly only working on MacOS
18:18:04  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: thee is the dative/accusative of thou
18:18:06  <Eddi|zuHause> and possibly buggy there
18:18:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: doesn't make much sense either
18:19:26  <Rubidium> ofcourse not ;)
18:19:34  <Rubidium> where art thou would be more correct ;)
18:19:38  <__ln__> it would make sense to allow panning the map with shift+scrollwheel or something.
18:19:46  <__ln__> on any platform.
18:21:05  <Eddi|zuHause> <Rhamphoryncus> Noob junction! <-- this kind of junction is pretty effective as long as the distance between two vehicles is significantly longer than their length
18:21:14  <SpComb> you have right-click drag for scrolling the viewport
18:21:17  <Rhamphoryncus> Yes yes, I know
18:21:42  <Rhamphoryncus> It's essentially a tram anyway, which does that everywhere
18:21:44  <SpComb> __ln__: or are you trying to use some kind of touch gestures for scrolling?
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18:22:41  <__ln__> SpComb: no, i purchased a logitech mouse which has a tilting scrollwheel which therefore allows horizontal scrolling as well.
18:23:17  <SpComb> two-finger scrolling in viewports might be fun
18:23:38  <SpComb> with the new XInput multitouch extensions!
18:24:19  <Eddi|zuHause>,Berlin&cid=0,0,12235437780684510785&ei=qDNiT9ekEMqQswabp7noBQ&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&ved=0CB0Q_BI <-- can do much more crazy stuff with "real" junctions ;)
18:24:44  <__ln__> yes, i also would like to do something with the horizontal scrolling ability of the apple touchpad.
18:25:24  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: like i said, there should be a setting what the scroll wheel does
18:26:08  <SpComb> but settings are bad :(
18:29:07  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: curiously enough, there is a setting (even on windows), but when i choose the function to be "scroll the map", the mouse wheel doesn't do anything at all anymore -- not even vertically.
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18:43:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24030 /trunk/src/lang/ (danish.txt french.txt lithuanian.txt unfinished/basque.txt):
18:43:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:43:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: basque - 16 changes by Thadah
18:43:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: danish - 16 changes by mgarde
18:43:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 6 changes by OliTTD
18:43:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 47 changes by Stabilitronas
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18:49:52  <__ln__> i can notice how shocked everyone is by this
18:51:10  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: it was never really tested, i guess
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19:15:26  <Eddi|zuHause> <- "this was the last train who drove on these tracks" :p
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19:24:19  <Rubidium> I'm happy that my train didn't drive on such tracks ;)
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19:43:32  <MNIM> *which
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20:24:18  <andythenorth> what am I knowing?
20:24:39  <supermop> maggie gyllenhall is expecting?
20:25:26  <Alberth> the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything.
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21:09:32  <Alberth> we may never know what he knows :)
21:09:35  <Alberth> good night all
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21:47:32  <xiong> Is there an issue with loading too many station NewGRFs? I can imagine some sort of running-out-of-short-integer-ID conflict.
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21:51:45  <frosch123> i think there is a limit of 32 station classes
21:52:02  <frosch123> (station classes are the categories in the station gui)
21:52:33  <frosch123> also there is a limit on the different types of stations graphics you can use within the same stations
21:52:36  <supermop> i think if you go other that stations start to get lumped together in a class?
21:52:46  <supermop> *over that?
21:52:55  <frosch123> no idea
21:53:06  <Yexo> yes, they all go in the default (first) class
21:53:37  <supermop> i had that happen once with my grf+isr+japan stations + something
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22:00:55  <Terkhen> good night
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22:10:27  <peter1138> someone™ needs to increase that limit
22:10:30  <peter1138> it's a gui limit
22:10:54  <Yexo> isn't the station class also stored in the map?
22:11:00  <peter1138> no
22:11:34  <frosch123> i think i was in fact working on it while working on fs#4967
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22:11:58  <peter1138> it's stored in the extra array in the station class
22:12:29  <frosch123> yeah, newgrfs cannot even query it
22:12:33  <frosch123> it is really only gui
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22:14:45  <Yexo> so would be enough?
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22:15:27  <frosch123> likely, unless you want to turn it into a uint32 :)
22:15:51  <peter1138> more than 8 bits would require messing with parameter stuffing
22:16:14  <frosch123> ah, the build command uses it?
22:16:41  <xiong> Well, I seem to have 31 different sets in the GUI. Some NewGRFs provide more than one, of course.
22:16:44  <Yexo> yep
22:17:01  <xiong> ... and it looks as though a couple of them are getting lumped together.
22:17:05  <Yexo> xiong: current limit is 32, but the "waypoints" class is included, so 31 different sets in the gui sounds about right
22:17:36  <xiong> Ah.
22:17:41  <peter1138> oh, that index is never saved
22:17:47  <peter1138> not even on the map
22:17:52  <peter1138> erm
22:17:57  <peter1138> not even in the station, heh
22:18:27  <peter1138> the station spec list keeps a direct reference to the station spec
22:18:44  <xiong> Well, with waypoints that makes 32. But perhaps there's another invisible/default class that puts me over the limit. I guess 'Default Station' should be one.
22:19:09  <peter1138> it's stored as grfid / index within grffile in savegames
22:19:24  <Yexo> as it should :)
22:19:36  <xiong> You say all the excess should get lumped into the first set?
22:19:37  <peter1138> i must've been thinking that day ;p
22:19:41  <peter1138> yes
22:19:43  <peter1138> they do
22:19:52  <peter1138> Yexo, make it 256 ;)
22:20:03  <peter1138> we have scrolling madness these days
22:20:31  <xiong> It seems in the first set I have, besides the tiles that belong there, the Default and also the VAST paths.
22:20:41  <peter1138> there's a "bug"
22:20:54  <peter1138> in that when all the classes are full, the name of the first class is changed
22:21:06  <peter1138> it should stay as Default really
22:21:29  <Yexo> yep, I noticed that too
22:21:45  <Yexo> seems there is a limit of 255 custom station tiles
22:21:52  <Yexo> having 256 classes really makes no sense
22:21:54  <peter1138> no
22:21:54  <xiong> Well, I'm willing to accept that I've been greedy. If the only difficulty is that the various platforms and tiles don't list as they quite should, I shouldn't complain.
22:21:59  <peter1138> 255 *per station*
22:22:10  <Yexo> hmm, oh ;)
22:22:24  <xiong> Perhaps the set limit in the GUI really is 31?
22:22:33  <peter1138> it's 32
22:22:46  <peter1138> but one slot is taken up by the hidden waypoint class
22:22:48  <peter1138> that was already said
22:22:50  <xiong> Okay, well, then why am I overflowing by 2?
22:23:00  <peter1138> ?
22:23:33  <xiong> Yes, 1 for the waypoints and 1 for Default -- the 'basic' station. I accept that. Together with the 31 sets I have loaded, that makes 33. But *2* sets are overflowing.
22:23:48  <peter1138> 31 station sets is not the same as 31 station classes
22:23:57  <peter1138> many sets have a few classes
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22:24:36  <xiong> Okay, let's call them classes. I dislike that word; it's too heavily overloaded. I refer to entries in the station GUI, not subentries; and not to the number of NewGRFs.
22:24:54  <peter1138> the max in the station gui is 31
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22:25:01  <peter1138> (because of the hidden waypoint class)
22:25:14  <peter1138> default is not hidden
22:25:23  <Yexo> xiong: both the newgrf spec and the openttd code refer to that as "station classes", so it makes sense to use that word
22:25:30  <xiong> It's not hidden... but it's not installable. It's builtin.
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22:25:37  <peter1138> it's still in the list
22:25:52  <peter1138> and newgrfs *can* use the default class
22:26:11  <xiong> Ah, but it is *not*. The default station currently shows as a subclass of the Czech station class.
22:26:14  <Ricaz> Hello, can anyone tell me why I can't fund a bank? It just says "... can only be built in towns".
22:26:15  <peter1138> yes
22:26:17  <peter1138> because...
22:26:31  <peter1138> 22:22 <@peter1138> there's a "bug"
22:26:32  <peter1138> 22:22 <@peter1138> in that when all the classes are full, the name of the first class is changed
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22:26:50  <peter1138> "first" == default
22:27:12  <Yexo> Ricaz: you have to build it over some houses
22:27:42  <Yexo> so what's a good station class limit? 64? 128? 256?
22:27:52  <Richard> hello i have a problem
22:28:02  <frosch123> Yexo: what's the limit of the command?
22:28:05  <xiong> Okay... so you're saying that no matter how many classes over the limit I've tried to load, I will only ever see 31 classes in the list... therefore the calculation is moot. I understand.
22:28:11  <peter1138> 256 is the command limit
22:28:15  <Yexo> frosch123: 8 bits, so 256
22:28:28  <Richard> i have 5000 vehicles and i will more
22:28:30  <Ricaz> Yexo: I tried almost all tiles in the town, same message.
22:28:46  <frosch123> so, yeah, 256 makes sense
22:28:49  <Yexo> Ricaz: do you use any industry newgrfs?
22:28:55  <Ricaz> Nope
22:29:05  <Ricaz> Wait
22:29:09  <Ricaz> Ah, now I get it
22:29:14  <Yexo> Richard: I think you mean you "want more", not you "will more"
22:29:19  <xiong> I think the current limit is not wrong. I see the evidence of my greed. I have Japanese, Czech, Canadian, US, and several generic stations -- and that's just for pax.
22:29:34  <Yexo> Richard: and there is currently no way around the 5000-vehicle limit except by changing the source code and recompiling
22:29:47  <frosch123> night
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22:30:05  <xiong> Now I have to go grind. Thanks for the illumination.
22:30:35  * Yexo is going to try and fit as many station newgrfs in one game as possible now, just to see how the gui looks :p
22:31:21  <peter1138> xiong, it's a leftover from when the gui code couldn't handle more than 32 items
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22:35:51  <Ricaz> Somehow, there are no woods in my map. Why is this? Can I fix it?
22:36:35  <Zuu> You can plant trees
22:36:54  <Yexo> Ricaz: you didn't make them invisble by accident? press ctrl+x to check
22:37:15  <Ricaz> No, there are no woods at all.
22:37:21  <Ricaz> Can you harvest wood from regular trees?
22:40:07  <peter1138> what landscape tyoe?
22:40:08  <peter1138> *type
22:40:24  <Ricaz> Temperate
22:40:34  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r24031 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.h: -Feature: increase the station class limit from 32 to 256
22:40:38  <Ricaz> I have lots of paper industries
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22:41:48  <peter1138> paper, in temperate?
22:41:50  <V453000> temperate doesnt sound like paper stuff
22:42:04  <V453000> unless you use some industry newgrf
22:42:05  <Yexo> if you have paper industries in temperate you must have an industry newgrf
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22:44:53  <Yexo> good night all
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