Log for #openttd on 19th March 2012:
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00:24:38  <Djohaal> wow
00:24:42  <Djohaal> I just made an overcomplicated network
00:24:45  <Djohaal> and it runs like clockwork
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00:30:50  <Djohaal> ..and that makes absolutely no sense. A chicken coop outputting wool
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00:34:31  <TinoDidriksen> The infamous and rare Wooly Chicken cross-breed.
00:40:35  <Nat_aS> can some platforms only load some cargos?
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00:40:56  <Nat_aS> because Trains seem to be waiting to load at the station but not actualy loading
00:41:12  <Nat_aS> because there is more than one platform type
00:41:51  <sidney60> nao sei ingles
00:45:04  <sidney60> tem algum brasileiro por aqui
00:45:54  <Nat_aS> sorry english only
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00:51:00  <krinn> no but trains could only load cargo if they pull wagons of that cargo
00:51:56  <krinn> ie: trains with passenger wagon loading at a station that only provide goods
00:52:49  <krinn> night all
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01:12:08  <Nat_aS> it was a train with food waggons at a station that has food, but it was stoped at one of the platforms from the japanese set, a passinger platform
01:12:19  <Nat_aS> trains at other platforms in the same station were loading food.
01:12:45  <Nat_aS> sure there is no newgrf option for platforms to not load cargo of specific types
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08:38:15  <dihedral> greetings
08:39:52  <Ammler> Hello Mr D
08:40:16  <dihedral> :-D
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08:56:40  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:58:03  <planetmaker> moin
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09:57:47  <xiong> Good morning.
09:58:45  <xiong> I seem to have trams available that are longer than a single tile. Do I need to construct multi-tile tram stops for them? Will they experience the same penalty as trains too long for their platforms?
09:59:56  <planetmaker> Not entirely sure, but I think so, yes
10:00:08  <planetmaker> besides it looks better :-)
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10:10:03  <peter1138> bah, why doesn't vpnc support certificate authentication? :(
10:15:06  <xiong> Yes, that's true too, planetmaker.
10:18:08  <dihedral> peter1138, because it sucks?
10:23:35  <peter1138> dihedral, sure. and an alternative?
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10:24:13  <dihedral> exactly that is the problem
10:24:25  <peter1138> useful
10:25:15  <dihedral> use the preshared key version for group authentication
10:25:29  <peter1138> sure, but i need certificate authentication
10:25:49  <krinn> hi, what is best to consider for an engine: power or tractive effort to mesure its efficiency ? Or if you prefer, what power and tractive effort does to an engine ?
10:26:20  <dihedral> in the router you can difine multiple groups, perhaps they'd move you to a psk group for the sake of you being able to connect.
10:26:32  <peter1138> no, i need to use certification authentcation
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10:27:29  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: tractive effort is needed for low speeds, power is needed for high speeds
10:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> on slopes, you need both
10:28:34  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, you mean kinda : tractive to start moving, and once reaching a certain speed, keep accelerate until reaching power/speed limit ?
10:28:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
10:30:23  <krinn> there's a method to see if the engine have too low of one or the other (power/tractive) ?
10:30:48  <Eddi|zuHause> the (simplified) formula for the speed limit is min(max_te, power/speed) = resistance + slope_force
10:31:05  <peter1138> oh well, i'll continue using this silly windows pc just for the vpn :p
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10:31:42  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, thank you
10:32:11  <Eddi|zuHause> where slope_force = train_weight * slope_steepness
10:32:46  <dihedral> peter1138, that's what i usually do, too
10:33:21  <Eddi|zuHause> where for so called "small angles" steepness = sin(steepness) = tan(steepness)
10:33:21  <peter1138> i need it to connect to rdp with ssl anyway
10:33:44  <peter1138> (which technically shouldn't be required because it's over the vpn, but, you know...)
10:34:13  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, thx i have base to work on now
10:34:30  <peter1138> well, i suppose there's identification in ssl too, heh
10:34:41  <xiong> krinn, you will read a great deal about both power and TE. Obviously you want more of both. Also, you usually want a higher top speed and, if you play (sensibly) with breakdowns on, higher reliability. Finally, you might consider that shorter engines require shorter platforms.
10:35:25  <xiong> So you want a lot from an engine and you are looking for ways to decide on the tradeoffs. I can give you a rule of thumb or two that may be easier than wading through the math.
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10:35:59  <krinn> xiong: i'm afraid i'm limit to use math :)
10:36:31  <krinn> xiong: it's for an AI that need to consider what engine to use
10:36:53  <xiong> If you are in passenger service, you don't need much power but high TE means you will leave the station quicker and recover faster from breakdowns and jams. High top speed is very important; pax value decays quickly.
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10:38:08  <xiong> If you are in heavy freight you want plenty of power and TE; consider multihead trains. I've often put 4 engines on a train pulling iron ore. TE is less important here, assuming you have good stations; and top speed almost irrelevant.
10:38:45  <xiong> Light freight falls somewhere midway between the two sets of considerations.
10:39:39  <xiong> Since you're not eager to do a lot of math -- and it might be a stinky AI if it burned up a lot of bits scribbling on the back of an envelope -- I'd suggest something heuristic.
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10:39:51  <krinn> my considerations are low: try to not take train X with tractive of 1 because of speed of 10000000 (or invert)
10:40:23  <krinn> and best, try to take one with a not bad ratio of both
10:40:51  <xiong> Pick the "best" engine available according to a very rough guess and see how fast it accelerates and how fast it goes straight ahead. If it's too slow, change engines. If it's still too slow, multihead.
10:41:52  <xiong> If the top speed is too low and it's passenger service, you look for an engine with... a higher top speed. If top speed is too low and it's heavy freight, look for an engine with more power... or you multihead.
10:42:15  <xiong> If acceleration is too slow then you probable need more TE, either way.
10:42:53  <xiong> Is that helpful?
10:43:07  <krinn> not really, because of my case :)
10:43:22  <xiong> Sorry; I don't follow you. What is your case?
10:43:40  <krinn> i cannot take decisions after the engine is running, but prior, can't waste time to analyze how an engine is then doing, i need to "guess" before it is create
10:43:46  <krinn> it's for an AI
10:44:20  <xiong> Of course you can make a decision after the train is in service. Track its performance and, if that sucks, replace the engine at the bottom of its cycle.
10:45:03  <krinn> if you know how the API handle trains, you would know the fewer you try to alter a train or send it to depot, the better
10:45:26  <xiong> Oh, I don't doubt it. And no, I know nothing about AI internals.
10:46:04  <xiong> But the rational approach is heuristic. You can't anticipate every parameter your AI will find on the track.
10:46:06  <planetmaker> krinn, there's no universal answer to your question
10:46:28  <xiong> Say Joe decides to use a freight multiplier of x20. Your calculations are all going bust.
10:46:32  <krinn> planetmaker, yep i know, i'm just trying to find an "accepatble" one
10:46:37  <planetmaker> it (highly) depends on the purpose of the train, the load, amount of wagons it shall pull, track curvature and steepness
10:46:43  <xiong> Say this map is flat... and that one is hilly.
10:47:30  <xiong> "Acceptable"... even at the very low bar of simply covering the route at all... is no easy feat.
10:47:49  <krinn> i see at wiki tractive effort forumla says for power -> P(ower) = F (tractive effort) * v (speed)
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10:48:01  <drac_boy> hi
10:48:18  <xiong> If I wrote an AI, I would have a failsafe routine that detected stalled trains -- going 1 mph for more than a few ticks -- and built a depot right there, ordered the pig off the main, and dealt with it.
10:48:49  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: careful: the wiki means "effective tractive effort" there, not "maximum tractive effort" [what is given in the purchase list]
10:49:04  <krinn> hi drac_boy
10:49:06  <xiong> In fact, I'd want to build the depot *behind* the stall, reverse it, so it's going downslope, and into that depot.
10:49:16  <drac_boy> xiong why did it stall in first place tho?
10:49:20  <drac_boy> hi krinn
10:49:27  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: hence "effective tractive effort" = min("maximum tractive effort", "power"/"current speed")
10:49:53  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: at max speed, the min() usually returns the second parameter
10:50:05  <xiong> Because I didn't anticipate every possible combination of maps, NewGRFs, and settings when I wrote the AI, drac_boy.
10:50:37  <xiong> I've seen otherwise respectable AIs do some real dumb stuff sometimes.
10:51:14  <drac_boy> xiong I don't think theres really any need to. just add up power+weightmultiplier+trainweight=likely limit
10:51:17  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, looks like the power/speed vs tractive effort is what i'm looking for
10:51:24  <drac_boy> doesn't need to know what grf is running
10:51:46  <drac_boy> I've seen one downloadable AI do it just like that before
10:51:58  <xiong> krinn, you can try to work it all out ahead of time and that's bold. But I seriously recommend that you think about *reacting* to actual performance on the fly. That will yield a superior AI instead of just another pig.
10:52:52  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: a real train would also consider braking power, but the game doesn't model that
10:53:05  <xiong> drac_boy, have you seen any AI at all put up a real fight? I mean, every AI I've tried so far is so easy to hose I don't even bother playing them anymore.
10:53:45  <drac_boy> xiong of course the one thing that does have some issues without being coded into the AI specifically in first place is certain trains that are limited to particular wagons or lengths
10:53:50  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: a real train must manage to stop from <max speed> in <signal distance>
10:53:58  <Eddi|zuHause> even downhill
10:54:07  <xiong> How about FIRS?
10:54:10  <drac_boy> such as one of the EMU in dbsetxl having to be at least 3 but no more than 5 coaches
10:54:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that's usually more important than engine power
10:54:22  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, hopefuly it would be scary seen them breaking at 2 tiles at max speed with 10000 wagons attach to them :)
10:54:27  <xiong> An AI that doesn't understand FIRS will fall down miserably.
10:54:52  <drac_boy> xiong....theres no need for the AI to know..the problem would fall to poor industry coding btw
10:54:58  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: well, in openttd, trains stop within 1 tile :)
10:55:00  <xiong> ?
10:55:23  <xiong> I hesitate to sound like a stuck-up ass but... FIRS is, by definition, great industry.
10:55:24  <Eddi|zuHause> (with block signals, and a signal turning red suddenly)
10:55:25  <drac_boy> xiong, let me give you a similar example that I never could understand...
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10:56:43  <drac_boy> ecs animal farm ... already hauling only wools out, it says it accept fibre crops right? well ... if I as an AI saw that there was a farm nearby I would build the route to carry fibre crops. but then there lays the problem...
10:57:13  <drac_boy> the train wouldn't even unload its first load at the animal farm at all for some weird reason..even although the animal farm did not say '0 max' at all
10:58:03  <drac_boy> and theres other weird things like that with both ecs and firs
10:58:07  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the problem there is that the NewGRF spec doesn't offer any sensible AI callback to tell them stuff the player could read from the readme, or the industry window
10:58:10  <drac_boy> so its not really the AI's fault
10:59:02  <Eddi|zuHause> only partially
10:59:03  <xiong> Well, we see things differently... which adds to the fun. I play the cards in my hand, if possible.
10:59:15  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause yeah the stockpile is one of these problem heh
10:59:35  <xiong> Now I'd better shut up or I'll talk myself into writing an AI, which is a horribly complicated task.
11:00:23  <drac_boy> heh heh
11:01:22  <drac_boy> xiong I've been thinking about drawing a few things this week, we'll see what else happens first tho
11:02:35  <xiong> Drawing is easy. I can draw all day. But this is not one game, or even a countable number of games. In a sense, it's very brave to attempt an AI of any kind.
11:02:58  <krinn> lol xiong thank you :)
11:03:01  <drac_boy> well xiong theres one other problem....coding these drawing into the game? :p
11:03:24  <xiong> That's something I'm completely unable to do, drac_boy.
11:04:34  <drac_boy> well I'm hoping for to be able to figure out some of the basics from the wiki then ask someone else to finish the last few problematic line in a day or two worth of time...hopefully
11:04:38  <drac_boy> we'll see what really happens tho
11:04:49  <xiong> drac_boy,
11:06:13  <drac_boy> dunno about that, I always use newsignal all the times :)
11:19:00  <xiong> Link me, please.
11:20:37  <drac_boy> its from MB so you can find it anywhere...although easier to start with the ttdxpatch wiki
11:21:25  <xiong> Anywhere being, for example...?
11:22:46  <planetmaker> at the end of a google search
11:23:06  <planetmaker> obviously using it is not intended as it's not offered on bananas ;-)
11:23:08  <drac_boy> planetmaker or just from a simple wiki grf url
11:23:08  <xiong> That's not even funny, planetmaker.
11:23:15  <planetmaker> I know
11:23:21  <Eddi|zuHause> newsignals is included in openttd.grf
11:23:48  <xiong> I'm searching, right now, for "newsignals". I see an indirect reference but no actual file.
11:24:36  <xiong>
11:26:19  <xiong> Since the half-dweeb who eventually coded bigsig only did half the job... and I do like PBS... I'm still looking for a decent signal set, drac_boy.
11:26:53  <xiong> I cannot for the life of me understand why he didn't do all. Must be more difficult than I was told.
11:27:35  <Eddi|zuHause> (now he's already insulting people who helped him?)
11:27:39  <krinn> planetmaker, you know if the tractive effort report by openttd is one set in the vehicle grf or one return by openttd?
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11:28:06  <planetmaker> eh?
11:28:12  <xiong>
11:28:29  <xiong> "OTTD does not support newsignals and hence does not support this GRF."
11:29:12  <Pikka> eh? @ krinn
11:29:21  <krinn> planetmaker, the one report to an AI (the tractive effort) is a value set by newgrf maker or one report by openttd by some calc
11:29:37  <xiong> ... although given the dates on those posts, who knows now?
11:29:48  <planetmaker> krinn, that question makes no sense to me. A vehicle has one TE. That's it.
11:29:57  <planetmaker> It can be supplied by a vehicle NewGRF, of course
11:30:15  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: it's the value of the "maximum" TE
11:30:48  <krinn> it can ? mean they don't need to, or can alter it ?
11:31:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, yes and yes.
11:31:12  <planetmaker> krinn, the TE is a vehicle property. Of course it varies from vehicle to vehicle
11:31:35  <planetmaker> Whether it's a default vehicle, modified default or completely new vehicle is of no consequence
11:31:51  <planetmaker> it's just a vehicle with certain properties
11:31:53  <peter1138> no
11:32:04  <Pikka> yes
11:32:05  <peter1138> he means is it the TE coefficent, or the actual TE
11:32:06  <krinn> so i could build a 100000000 power, 1000000 spd with a 1 tractive effort engine, right ?
11:32:20  <peter1138> (i.e. the newgrf value, or the returned value)
11:32:21  <Pikka> is that what he means though, peter1138?
11:32:36  <peter1138> 11:31 < krinn> planetmaker, the one report to an AI (the tractive effort) is a value set by newgrf maker or one report by openttd by some calc
11:32:39  <peter1138> seems like it to me
11:32:45  <krinn> and it will gave you a train that could run at amazing speed, pulling an awesome number of wagons, but need zillions km to reach it
11:32:54  <Pikka> yes krinn
11:32:58  <planetmaker> <-- available properties, krinn
11:33:12  <peter1138> planetmaker, that's not the question
11:33:22  <drac_boy> btw hi pikka (if you're the one who owns ukrs that is) :-)
11:33:29  <planetmaker> peter1138, then answer the question as you understand it.
11:33:46  <Pikka> hello drac_boy
11:33:51  <planetmaker> yes.
11:33:51  <planetmaker> no.
11:33:53  <planetmaker> wrong
11:33:54  <planetmaker> boring
11:34:01  <planetmaker> be constructive
11:34:06  <Pikka> spuds!
11:34:07  <Pinkbeast> "Speed in mph*1.6" - who on earth wrote that?
11:34:17  <peter1138> chris sawyer
11:34:26  <peter1138> i don't know what the AI API call is :p
11:34:31  <Pikka> do you think that's wrong, Pinkbeast?
11:34:40  <Pinkbeast> I doubt Chris Sawyer wrote that wiki page
11:34:47  <planetmaker> but he used that unit
11:34:50  <drac_boy> pikka just wondering what made you think to add some of these dual-mode locomotives in ukrs2?  like the JB diesel for example
11:35:01  <Pinkbeast> Pikka: I can think of a more sensible way of phrasing it, one like "Speed in kph"
11:35:09  <Pikka> but it's not, Pinkbeast
11:35:14  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, but it's not
11:35:17  <Pikka> kph is not mph*1.6
11:35:21  <planetmaker> ^^
11:35:22  <Pikka> aliens, drac_boy
11:35:53  <Pinkbeast> It's close enough at OTTD speeds - 100mph is just under 161kph
11:36:01  <Pikka> yes
11:36:19  <Pikka> and if you put 0x160 you'll presumably get 161kph
11:36:24  <Pikka> and people will complain that it's a bug
11:36:25  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, it's not close enough
11:36:26  <Pinkbeast> And surely the intent was kph because otherwise who would pick that unit
11:36:36  <Pikka> chris sawyer would
11:36:40  <planetmaker> people not only will complain. They happily do complain about such difference
11:36:41  <drac_boy> pikka heh why aliens? :-)
11:36:42  <Pikka> because ttd is coded in hex
11:36:56  <planetmaker> quite heatedly one must say
11:37:15  <Pinkbeast> Nah, I guess I'm wrong here, that is the sensible way to express it, although it's a bit demented (but we can't get away from it)
11:37:27  <Pikka> why not, drac_boy?
11:37:44  <drac_boy> pikka you want know my honest thought on it then? :)
11:37:59  <Pikka> certainly
11:38:16  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, it's ugly units, (nearly) all will agree. But that's how TTD did it, thus we're stuck with it, as all newgrfs now rely on this "funny" unit, too
11:38:18  <krinn> planetmaker, found the answer so it's in 1F
11:38:33  <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: yes, I agree; I was wrong.
11:38:59  <drac_boy> ukrs2 would had been much nicer if there was ever an updated version of IS2.5
11:39:10  <planetmaker> IS 2.5?
11:39:42  <drac_boy> since the mix of electrics and non-electrifications would make these sort of dual-mode locomotives much more useful
11:40:23  <drac_boy> planetmaker, never tried it before? you can look up 'infrastructure sharing' on any ottd wiki
11:40:53  <Pinkbeast> drac: I think it's more than it was non-obvious what "IS" stood for
11:41:08  <Pikka> I thought it was industrial stations
11:41:39  <drac_boy> I always call that one jcindust if going by short name
11:41:47  <CornishPasty> I thought it was Information Services... But that has nothing to do with OpenTTD :P
11:42:17  <planetmaker> I rather wondered about the "2.5" ;-)
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11:47:59  <drac_boy> hm anyway pikka do you ever do any more work on nars grf or its pretty much sitting as is?
11:48:11  <Pikka> it needs updating, but not for a while
11:48:45  <drac_boy> I guess the updating would have something to do with the locomotives marked as ! instead of * in your wiki's vehicle list?
11:49:14  <Pikka> unlikely
11:55:01  <xiong> I'm all in favor of redefining the kilometer to be 1.6 miles. Why not? It makes calculation easier. Don't say it's not possible; Apple and Adobe together managed to redefine the printer's point to exactly 1/72 inch.
11:55:15  <drac_boy> heh
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11:56:10  <xiong> It's probably time for me to go to bed, or at least read awhile first. Night all.
11:56:39  * planetmaker is rather in favour to just remove miles everywhere altogether ;-)
11:57:13  <Pikka> yes
11:57:31  <Pikka> everyone knows there's only one sensible unit to measure long distances in
11:57:39  <drac_boy> pikka at least its nice that you left a simple interurban electric coach in nars :)
11:57:40  <planetmaker> Giga-Angrstoms
11:57:47  <planetmaker> Giga-Angstroms
11:57:54  <drac_boy> quebec and ontario had quite a number of them on light routes
11:57:58  <Pikka> NM, planetmaker
11:58:08  <Pikka> I left it in, drac_boy?
11:58:27  <drac_boy> well I meant...add .. or whatever :)
11:58:39  <Pikka> one NM = 18.52 kilometers, so it's a nice round number
11:58:51  <planetmaker> ehm... no
11:58:59  <planetmaker> factor of ten wrong ;-)
11:59:06  <Pikka> yes
11:59:09  <Pikka> 1.852
11:59:13  <Pikka> is what I meant
11:59:19  <Pikka> shush
11:59:33  <Pikka> actually, why are there kno nots in openttd?
11:59:44  <planetmaker> nah, rather equatorial circumference / 40000
12:00:03  <Pikka> 1852 metres
12:00:06  <Pikka> is the official definition
12:00:09  <planetmaker> :-)
12:00:21  <Pikka> feeture request!
12:00:34  <Pikka> separate display units for different vehicle types
12:00:47  <Pikka> so we can have road vehicles in km/h, trains in mph and ships and aircraft in knots
12:00:50  <Pikka> the way it should be!
12:01:17  <planetmaker> he. But how do we handle knots for planes? Do we assume any wind? Any given pressure at sea level?
12:01:29  <Pinkbeast> All kinds of units could be like that. "Capacity: 15 passengers in conditions of hideous discomfort" (but you aren't doing the Pacer :-)
12:01:31  <Pikka> it's no different from how we handle km/h and mph
12:01:37  <Pikka> it's ground speed
12:01:48  <planetmaker> ground speed makes no sense for aircraft
12:01:58  <Pikka> of course it does
12:02:02  <krinn> sound speed :P
12:02:18  <Pikka> if you want to know how fast you're getting from A to B, ground speed is all that makes sense for aircraft
12:02:35  <planetmaker> engine and plane design can only be designed for indicated (or if you want true) air speed
12:02:56  <Pikka> yes
12:03:07  <Pikka> but TAS = ground speed in openttd
12:03:24  <Pinkbeast> But since there's no wind in OTTD (and planes are not the vehicles that need it most)...
12:04:04  <Pikka> and knots are just a unit of speed, so "how we handle knots for aircraft" is no different from "how we handle km/h for aircraft"...
12:04:54  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, ever observed the wind sack or the power plant's smoke?
12:05:09  <planetmaker> and now you come and tell us there's no wind?
12:05:10  <planetmaker> :-P
12:05:30  <Pinkbeast> Yeah, but I've also observed sailing ships make the same speed in every direction, which implies... actually, I'm not sure what that implies.
12:05:41  <krinn> never seen my aircraft landing on water when out of fuel :)
12:05:54  <planetmaker> they simply crash in that case
12:06:05  <planetmaker> (yes, that *can* happen)
12:06:18  <peter1138> only if you're silly
12:06:30  <Pikka> what do you mean "if", peter1138?
12:06:34  <peter1138> :D :D
12:06:35  <krinn> they shouldn't if i put an *Hudson* sign over the river
12:06:49  <peter1138> hmm, power: 40%
12:06:59  <peter1138> acceleration smells
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12:07:12  <peter1138> we have two engine states
12:07:16  <peter1138> on and off
12:07:25  <peter1138> and the change is instant
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12:12:14  <CornishPasty> planetmaker: btw, most aircraft above a certain size have IAS and GS indicators
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12:19:08  <Pikka> all aircraft which have a mobile phone in them have a GS indicator
12:19:14  <Pikka> welcome to the 21st century :P
12:25:54  <planetmaker> :-)
12:28:58  <drac_boy> going for a bit now :s
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12:30:24  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone find it annoying that when you work across symlinks, "ls .." and "cd .." may access different directories?
12:30:51  <TinoDidriksen> No they won't...
12:30:58  <Eddi|zuHause> cd goes across the symlinks that you came from, but ls only works on the actual physical location
12:31:24  <Pikka> a bit of what, I wonder...
12:34:01  <TinoDidriksen> Oh, yes they will. Huh, never noticed. I guess I don't do ls .. ever...
12:36:59  <Eddi|zuHause> need to reorganize my disks... i never have free space on the one that i actually need...
12:37:55  <Pinkbeast> The behaviour of cd depends on the shell
12:43:30  <CornishPasty> Eddi|zuHause: use cd - instead then
12:44:19  <krinn> never notice, and i think he more complain about ls weird behavior than cd
12:44:43  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes, it's annoying. Know a solution? (I don't)
12:44:58  <Eddi|zuHause> CornishPasty: what does that do?
12:45:20  <krinn> i think Eddi|zuHause expect that -> ls .. == ls `cd -`
12:45:21  <CornishPasty> Eddi|zuHause: returns to the last folder you were in
12:45:37  <Eddi|zuHause> CornishPasty: how does that help?
12:45:42  <planetmaker> ^
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12:45:52  <CornishPasty> Well if you were in the parent directory, then went inside, you can get back :P
12:46:11  <planetmaker> I usually were not in the parent dir
12:46:25  <CornishPasty> Hm, fair enough
12:46:32  <CornishPasty> I just tend to know where I am on my systems
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12:47:24  <Eddi|zuHause> CornishPasty: cd already works "properly"
12:47:44  <Eddi|zuHause> CornishPasty: it's ls that is "schitzophrenic"
12:47:46  <CornishPasty> Well you were moaning about ls .. and cd .. not working the way you expect...
12:47:50  <CornishPasty> Heh
12:48:23  <Eddi|zuHause> CornishPasty: the "problem" in this case was "ls .." and subsequent "cd ../something" didn't exist, even though it was shown in ls
12:48:34  <krinn> you may solve it with ls `cd .. && pwd`
12:49:11  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: but that's no generic solution
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12:49:42  <krinn> yep, but i don't know a switch that would do that in ls
12:51:00  <krinn> but you can easy detect a ls .. and hack it in your bashrc to do ls `cd .. && pwd` instead
12:51:58  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: but that won't work on "ls a/../../b"
12:52:07  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: or even "ls ../.."
12:53:12  <krinn> yep
12:53:17  <krinn> it won't
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12:54:46  <krinn> you better not use rm like that then :)
12:57:37  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, i think you should keep the way ls is working, else rm .. usage might do you a pitty
12:58:02  <Pinkbeast> cd is the one that's odd (in some shells).
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13:00:32  <krinn> the bash expansion is as weird as cd
13:07:28  <peter1138> oh, i made trains go too fast :(
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13:12:45  <krinn> peter1138, gave the trains names then :)
13:21:43  <Belugas> hello
13:24:15  <peter1138> :D
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13:48:23  <krinn> never saw that before, but now using a PBS if any train pass the PBS all tracks are reserved until another signal
13:49:46  <krinn> but if you cross a road: the bus/truck is stuck until the train reach the signal <end> and the path isn't reserved: for a long rail track with hills and breakdown, it could be a lot
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13:57:20  <Eddi|zuHause> not quite sure what you're saying
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14:02:09  <krinn> put a rail line
14:02:17  <krinn> add 2 pbs before the stations
14:02:40  <krinn> now cross the rail with a road : as soon as train pass one PBS and upto until it pass the other PBS
14:03:04  <krinn> the road station crossing line signals are red and any truck/bus will wait because a train is coming
14:03:57  <krinn> but for long long distances with hills and breakdown: the time until the train reach that point could be a lot and the truck is stuck until it reach it
14:04:16  <Pikka> put another signal closer to the crossing then
14:04:49  <krinn> if you are kind yes
14:04:58  <krinn> but what if the crossing road isn't yours ?
14:05:06  <Pikka> then don't
14:05:26  <Pinkbeast> There is very little that can be done about the way that if X runs RVs up a road, Y can mess that up by running trains across it.
14:07:53  <krinn> it gave a priority to trains vs road, but as i said, if the train line is real long, the road vehicle could be stuck for quiet a long time for nothing as the train is far from reaching them and distroy them
14:08:33  <Pikka> so how would you change it?
14:09:16  <CornishPasty> MOAR SIGNALS
14:09:37  <krinn> dunno: change road vehicle signal to get red if a train is near and not if the train has reserve the tracks only
14:10:40  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: but there is no sane "is near" check. that's why the reservation was used in the first place
14:11:15  <Pikka> Eddi|zuHause: I was going to say, while he's working on that, can we have "realistic deceleration" too, that's been on the want list for a long time. :)
14:11:31  <krinn> there's a maybe less safer is near way, but one could be made easy
14:11:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: michi_cc wanted to do that :)
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14:12:03  <Pikka> since they both involve testing how far a train is from a target, it seems logical to do them both together ;)
14:12:29  <Pinkbeast> There was that first stab at prototypical colour-aspect signalling a while back (and indeed I'd like prototypical semaphore signalling, but I recognise that's a Hard Problenm)
14:12:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: but i imagine that also would only work on a singnal-to-signal basis
14:13:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i.e. "if distance to reservation end < X and extend reservation failed => decelerate"
14:14:09  <Pikka> hmm
14:14:18  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, a rought check would be when signal is red: check a square retangle of tiles for any train presence : yes, keep red, no set green
14:14:32  <Eddi|zuHause> where "X" is a somewhat crude way to estimate the braking distance
14:14:43  <Eddi|zuHause> and a reservation can only end on a signal or end of line
14:14:51  <Pikka> yes
14:15:35  <Pikka> although at present it doesn't try to extend the reservation until it hits the tile with the signal, does it?
14:15:44  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
14:15:58  <Eddi|zuHause> the tile before the signal, afair
14:16:02  <Pikka> attempted reservation will have to be extended to two blocks :)
14:16:09  <Pikka> which I guess is no bad thing
14:16:28  <Pikka> and will make the signals look more realistic if they're going green a block ahead of the train
14:22:56  <peter1138> yes
14:22:58  <peter1138> do it
14:23:08  <peter1138> i tried but it didn't work
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14:23:28  <Pikka> krinn is going to do it
14:23:53  <peter1138> cool
14:23:58  <krinn> i won't :)
14:24:11  <peter1138> of course, openttd's braking force is ... meh
14:24:25  <krinn> i won't touch any openttd code, as i will only put nightmare if i do that
14:24:33  * Pinkbeast ain't persuaded anything can handle the general case of, say, a 300mph maglev approaching a crossing with a 5mph HEQS crawler on it...
14:26:22  <krinn> just to show it's a bit bad for road vehicle
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14:27:39  <krinn> look at "Vue1" the crossing near molaix hauteurs is red because train has reserve tracks entering the PBS at LeMans Central
14:27:52  <Pikka> we understand the concept, krinn
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14:28:28  <krinn> oh, i have just discover it, never used PBS before
14:30:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: use a trackset that disables level crossings for high speed rail
14:30:39  <peter1138> heh
14:30:45  <Pinkbeast> Eddi: yes. I just mean, the OTTD code can't get it right in the general case.
14:30:48  <V453000> or just dont build those crossings? :D
14:30:50  <peter1138> what's worse, road vehicles waiting, or road vehicles being crashed?
14:31:17  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: waiting road vehicles being crashed (-> PBS double track)
14:31:26  <peter1138> :D :D
14:31:52  <Eddi|zuHause> ... i have a patch for that :p
14:32:09  <krinn> peter1138, i'm not sure, for a human a crash road vehicle will get his attention, while a waiting road vehicle will not get it until the wait is so long the vehicle isn't making profit
14:32:13  <Pikka> 7+(13*3)
14:32:23  <Pikka> 39
14:32:51  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 7+(13*3)
14:32:51  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 46
14:32:56  <Pikka> yes
14:33:05  <peter1138> hmm
14:33:09  <peter1138> power level 1%
14:33:21  <peter1138> doesn't take much to keep a train up to speed
14:33:33  <Pikka> 46, that's what I said
14:33:53  <Pikka> anyway, in unrelated news, do you know what are tremendously ugly?
14:34:05  <Pikka> track overlay junctions
14:34:09  <peter1138> sacro?
14:34:16  <Pikka> him too
14:34:35  <Pikka> but I would very much like to be able to optionally provide tile sprites for the overlay junctions
14:35:08  <Pikka> of which there are, possibly, 46 :)
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14:43:36  <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with the overlay junctions?
14:44:19  <Pikka> they look hideous.  especially when you're using tracks that aren't 18-foot-gauge and so can't have holes in the middle of the track for the other tracks to show through.
14:44:52  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 18*12*2.54
14:44:52  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 548.64
14:44:57  <peter1138> was there a variable with the trackbits?
14:45:29  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: there wasn't any variables, because *someone* decided that there should not be any variables
14:45:44  <Pikka> someone(tm)
14:46:29  <peter1138> that was more about neighbouring tiles
14:46:48  <Eddi|zuHause> there aren't any variables about the same tile either
14:46:55  <peter1138> none at all?
14:47:44  <Eddi|zuHause>
14:48:05  <peter1138> so there are 5 variables
14:48:10  <peter1138> you just said there wasn't any
14:48:33  <peter1138> crazy fool
14:48:45  <Eddi|zuHause> none that are useful :)
14:48:46  <Pikka> hyperbolee
14:49:10  <peter1138> all you need is one variable
14:49:13  <Pikka> yes
14:49:15  <peter1138> and a lot of empty sprites
14:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> one variable to rule them all
14:50:30  <peter1138> (lol, changing vehicle data in GetAcceleration() :p
14:50:31  <peter1138> )
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17:48:52  <andythenorth> Pikka: the toddler likes choppers
17:48:57  <andythenorth> both kinds
17:49:05  <Pikka> uhoh
17:49:35  <Pinkbeast> Please, what in PJ1K is 9/8 long on the sprite template? The 9F?
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17:49:51  * andythenorth used to see choppers when he was tiny
17:50:03  <Pikka> nothing, Pinkbeast
17:50:47  <Pikka> the largest non-articulated steam locos in NARS are 9/8
17:51:09  <andythenorth> in our first house (lived there until I was 2), I could see choppers go into the mine every day
17:51:25  <Pikka> 20s, andythenorth?
17:51:28  <andythenorth> yup
17:51:34  <andythenorth> blue, double headed, 16t minerals
17:51:45  <Pikka> I doubt I've ever seen one
17:51:57  <andythenorth> then in our next house, there was another colliery line ran next to our school
17:52:36  <andythenorth> in fact, nearly every school I attended had a train line within sight
17:52:55  <andythenorth> how odd
17:53:06  <Pinkbeast> Huh, OK. Sorry, I should have tried matching a few up to the template first
17:53:14  <Pikka> there's a lot of them about, andy
17:53:36  <andythenorth> not so much anymore
17:53:45  <Pikka> true
17:53:54  <andythenorth> most of them got ripped up and turned into bike paths after the miners strike ;)
17:54:10  <Pikka> Pinkbeast: in fact, there are no 8/8 steam engines in NARS.  the pacifics and 9F are 7/8.
17:54:31  <Pinkbeast> So 1/8 is about 5ft of wheelbase?
17:54:54  <Pikka> the steam engines are drawn longer than the diesels
17:55:01  <Pikka> it's mostly just whatever looks right.
17:55:30  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, 1/8 length is 1/16 tile. Where 1 tile is 600km ;-)
17:55:36  <Pinkbeast> I was pondering how to make the Hush-Hush look different to an A4
17:57:16  <Pinkbeast> Easier at the front end, though.
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18:10:09  <Scuddles> pikka doesn't have an unhealthy attraction to dualheaded class 20s
18:11:21  <andythenorth> unhealthy?
18:11:23  <andythenorth> :P
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18:13:42  <Scuddles> apparently
18:14:25  <Pikka> double headed class 20s is like the logical opposite of a bubblecar
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18:16:11  <Scuddles> you should reimplement those 121s soon so I can doublehead them and be ridiculous
18:18:14  <andythenorth> double headed choppers with a mk1 coach in the middle
18:18:23  <Pikka> sounds more like it
18:18:47  <andythenorth> a 121 at each end of 36 mgr hoppers
18:18:52  <andythenorth> ^ rubbish idea
18:20:27  <Scuddles> that's genius
18:20:41  <Scuddles> but only downhill unless you like only 2 cars
18:21:32  <Scuddles> also why don't quad class 20s get arranged back to back
18:21:57  <Scuddles> as of now they are mostly forwards except one of them like filthy american loco
18:21:58  <Pikka> for reasons
18:22:07  <Pikka> yse
18:22:09  <Pikka> also
18:22:22  <Scuddles> it's slated for next release guys
18:22:41  <andythenorth> wtf scrubblecar? :o
18:23:08  <Scuddles> scrubblecar.grf more like
18:23:17  <Pikka> obviously it is a bubblecar A-Train
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18:24:07  <Wolf01> hello
18:30:01  <andythenorth> bah
18:30:06  <andythenorth> editing makefiles is very hard
18:30:18  <andythenorth> [when your editor is set to turn tab into 4 spaces, for python]
18:30:41  <planetmaker> yeah. you need tabs
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18:44:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24047 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
18:44:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:44:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by KorneySan, Wowanxm
18:44:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 2 changes by Eskymak
18:44:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by telk5093
18:44:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 57 changes by Parastais
18:44:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 23 changes by Stabilitronas
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18:44:29  <drac_boy> hi
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18:54:15  <Scuddles> women shoops
18:55:16  <drac_boy> heh?
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19:06:51  <Scuddles> pikka it's way past your bedtime, go to bed wallyweb
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19:10:38  <drac_boy> don't want sound dumb but how do hp and kN affect locomotives in term of train consists basically?
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19:15:02  <Rhamphoryncus> The practical effect is hp is more relevant to reaching high speed and TE is more relevant to low speeds and heavy loads.  How that works I haven't yet figured out
19:15:30  <drac_boy> hmm that helps a bit still thanks Rhamphoryncus
19:15:34  <Sacro> peter1138: :(
19:15:39  <Rhamphoryncus> np
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19:16:12  <drac_boy> so I guess something like say 2000hp 100kN would be a self-powered express coach while something with oh I dunno 1400hp 300kN would do nice on a long wagon string of lumbers :)
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19:17:01  <morph`> Question - how can I install both 1.1.5 and 1.2.0-RC3 on my Debian server?
19:17:14  <andythenorth> drac_boy:
19:17:17  <morph`> If I try to install RC3, it kinda wants to overwrite the "old" one
19:17:24  <drac_boy> morph` you tried seperate folders?
19:17:59  <morph`> Well, if I use the precompiled one from site, it installs the executable to /usr/games/openttd
19:18:17  <drac_boy> thanks andythenorth
19:18:19  <morph`> Is there a way to "make it go where I want" ?
19:18:42  <drac_boy> morph` I dunno. always had enough trouble with just the source on either windows or linux
19:18:59  <drac_boy> especially when I can't get the two seperate openttd folders to stop wrecking each others' cfg atm -_-
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19:19:22  <morph`> Well, what I did was make like 2 folders
19:19:30  <drac_boy> thanks andythenorth will finish reading the rest of that soon :)
19:19:39  <morph`> What I did was 2 folders - /server1 /server2
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19:19:48  <morph`> Put autopilot+ CFGs in each of them
19:19:55  <morph`> Then just run them seperately
19:20:00  <morph`> Easy like that
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19:23:18  <morph`> I don't get one thing - my temperate server has many people sometimes
19:23:24  <morph`> Tropic server - none
19:23:27  <morph`> Wth?
19:24:03  <drac_boy> morph` hm whats the name of the server you run? just curious
19:24:15  <morph`> mmopenttd #1 and #2
19:24:22  <morph`> Just some usual ones w/o newgrf
19:24:32  <morph`> Newgrf server = 0 joined per 48 hours
19:24:33  <morph`> :(
19:25:15  <drac_boy> hm one sec
19:25:35  <drac_boy> oh had to ask, they up or not atm? :)
19:25:48  <morph`> #1 is, #2 im changing to the winter one
19:25:56  <morph`> what was the name of climate - arctic?
19:26:19  *** kais58_ is now known as kais58
19:26:32  <drac_boy> morph` hmm well since I can't look I'm curious which grfs the tropical or arctic one is using?
19:26:40  <morph`> None
19:26:42  <rane> is there a hotkey for replying to private message?
19:26:51  <morph`> I couldn't get people to join the ones with newgrfs
19:27:14  <morph`> I left one newgrf as an experiment (opengfx trees)
19:27:16  <morph`> 0 joined
19:27:22  <morph`> removed it - 5 joined at start
19:27:39  <morph`> I think automatic download should be added to OpenTTD
19:27:54  <morph`> since many just dont know how to press 2 buttons to add newgrfs or something :(
19:28:31  <drac_boy> morph` I dunno..unless you meant it'll only download as soon as user clicks 'connect' rather than at the lobby screen
19:28:42  <morph`> Yes
19:28:57  <morph`> When you connect to a server with newgrf, you automatically connect the required ones
19:29:05  <morph`> Like maps in various shooters etc.
19:29:15  <morph`> (nice comparison - openttd vs shooters)
19:30:34  <peter1138> Sacro <3
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19:32:19  <drac_boy> morph` i guess that could be something for you to put up as a debate to the ottd coders then
19:32:45  <morph`> Maybe, I dont really know
19:32:47  <drac_boy> morph` either way tropical with no grfs .. I probably wouldn't had joined ... a bit less if basecost was missing (considering how flat the land can be at times etc)
19:32:54  <drac_boy> just so you know :)
19:33:07  <morph`> Well, yea
19:33:14  <morph`> I like mountains and whatnot, too
19:33:36  <morph`> And basecost where you DO NOT SIMPLY BUILD UNTO WATER
19:35:55  <drac_boy> morph` haha...actually I've known to redo minor shorelines at times seriously tho
19:36:13  <drac_boy> you have to when you're stuck with the sloped mountain on one side and the water on other side and absolutely no flat tiles in the middle
19:36:22  <drac_boy> but then :)
19:36:32  <morph`> I like basecosts on openttdcoop stable
19:36:39  <morph`> Ship - 3k
19:36:46  <morph`> Running cost / year - 300 million
19:36:50  <morph`> So yea, no ships
19:37:17  <drac_boy> morph` for my own games I usually have basecost set toward high plane/airport cost, higher buy but lower runcost for ships, and slight increasement in all train costs.  thats more or less it
19:38:55  <drac_boy> morph` btw I like the two servers (afaik) that have better terraforming only can do 30 tiles per year
19:39:27  <drac_boy> so that way minor adjustment to squeeze track in works under the limit but anyone trying to blow up a hill just because they want their stupid "flat straight tracks" are in for a big slap in the face :)
19:40:32  <morph`> :)
19:40:52  <morph`> Yesterday I had like LLLLRRRR track and like 16 bridges over some pond
19:41:16  <morph`> After a while and few hundred millions, I was like FK it and bulldozored (lol @ this word) all of it
19:41:20  <morph`> BAM -300 million
19:41:22  <morph`> :D
19:41:34  <morph`> Anyways, off to play some TTD
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19:41:41  <drac_boy> morph` the way it goes is...these that really need a few tiles out of way to get workable tracks in don't pay through the nose for it ... but these that have no clue about relastic gets a slap
19:41:52  <drac_boy> oh...sure is a funny one him ... oh well :)
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19:59:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r24048 /trunk/ (readme.txt src/misc_gui.cpp): -Cleanup: Sync credits in readme and ingame information
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20:07:44  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: If I understand that page correctly.. TE = HP/speed, limited by Max TE (weight of the locomotive, etc)?
20:07:54  <andythenorth> dunno
20:07:59  <andythenorth> but Al Krug knows his onions
20:08:16  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
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20:08:45  <Rhamphoryncus> It occurs to me how oblivious I've been to this when playing before
20:09:10  <__ln__>  (sfw, nsf brain)
20:11:57  <valhallasw> Rhamphoryncus: something like that, yes
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20:12:36  <valhallasw> Rhamphoryncus: essentially: there is a maximum force (TE) (=force = added velocity per unit time) and a maximum power (=added energy per unit time)
20:12:54  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, I get that
20:13:07  <valhallasw> and because energy scales witn v^2, the acceleration is limited by TE at low speeds and power at high speeds
20:13:51  <valhallasw> so indeed acceleration = min(max TE, HP/speed)
20:14:03  <valhallasw> with some prefactors ;-)
20:14:15  <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm.  Are you saying that it's not TE=HP/speed, but rather *required* TE=TE*speed?
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20:15:43  <valhallasw> er.. no
20:16:31  <valhallasw> your statement was correct; I'm just calling it acceleration instead of TE
20:17:30  <Rhamphoryncus> The energy output of the engine is constant though, the HP, so why is it reduced with speed?
20:18:04  <valhallasw> Rhamphoryncus: because the energy required to speed up, say, 1 km/h, increases with the velocity
20:18:39  <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, so it is "required TE"
20:19:04  <valhallasw> I'm not quite sure what you mean with 'required TE'
20:20:16  <Rhamphoryncus> me either :)
20:22:20  <Rhamphoryncus> max TE of 420 kN, that I get.  Engine output of 2.5 MJ/s (2.5 MW).  Those I get.
20:22:41  <Rhamphoryncus> Resistance increasing with the square of the velocity, that I get.
20:23:10  <valhallasw> this is all without friction
20:23:31  <valhallasw> friction just makes the headache slightly heavier
20:23:44  <Rhamphoryncus> alright
20:23:56  <valhallasw> the maximum acceleration with 420 kN of TE = 420 kN / <mass of train>
20:24:21  <Rhamphoryncus> I can use the formula but I don't understand why the TE drops with velocity
20:24:27  <valhallasw> the maximum acceleration with 2.5MW of power = 2.5MW * <the amount of velocity increase per unit power>
20:25:08  <valhallasw> <the amount of velocity increase per unit power> = 1/(<mass> * <velocity>)
20:25:37  <valhallasw> this is because the energy in the moving train E = 0.5*<mass>*<velocity>^2
20:26:10  <Rhamphoryncus> Maybe that's what my brain is choking on
20:26:15  <valhallasw> thus <the energy increase per unit velocity> = <mass>*<velocity> and <the amount of velocity increase per unit power> = 1/(<mass>*<velocity>)
20:28:23  <Rhamphoryncus> If you accelerate by 1 m/s/s for 10 seconds then your velocity is 10 m/s.  That's a linear increase in energy, not quadratic
20:28:37  <valhallasw> no
20:28:49  <valhallasw> it's a linear increase in velocity
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20:32:27  <Rhamphoryncus> I'll have to read up more later and straighten out my brain
20:33:04  <valhallasw> good luck
20:33:20  <valhallasw> my headache doesn't help in explaining it, sorry :-)
20:35:33  <Rhamphoryncus> Naw, you helped lots
20:35:52  <Rhamphoryncus> This is basic physics I have screwed up, which is carrying over into locomotives and cars
20:37:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r24049 /branches/1.2/ (readme.txt src/misc_gui.cpp):
20:37:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.2] -Doc: Add credits for title game
20:37:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Cleanup: Sync credits between readme and ingame information (r24048)
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20:50:39  <Ammler> Rubidium: (or someone else), could you help me here:
20:51:17  <Ammler> it is about timidity
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20:53:46  <Ammler> wha is useful on the  building for openttd?
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21:00:03  <planetmaker> Ammler: it's useful to build a sound driver into OpenTTD, not?
21:00:31  <frosch123> iirc ottd can use both libtimidity and the external timidity thingie
21:00:33  <rane> is there a hotkey for replying to a private message?
21:00:46  <planetmaker> maybe we should re-consider the fluidsnyth patch :-)
21:01:50  <Ammler> frosch123: the guy on the ticket just said, it didn't work
21:01:55  <krinn> Ammler, from what i see in my ebuild: openttd need aplaymidi, and alsa-utils can provide it, but timidity also, timidity will also add ability to make an external midi device playing the tunes
21:02:09  <Ammler> if it would work, it would make much sense to build midi player in
21:04:20  <Ammler> planetmaker: afaik, I asked about this 1? week ago, the answer was that timidity coul also be sued as sound driver
21:05:04  <Ammler> or see my comment I just made
21:05:10  <Ammler> #5
21:06:11  <krinn> look at comment in the ebuild, it answer your question imo
21:08:02  <Ammler> krinn: your comment does not say, why or why not
21:08:27  <Ammler> I know, openttd works without
21:09:17  <Ammler> anyway, wouldn't it make sense to build the player in, so a external midi player is not needed?
21:09:38  <krinn> and then someone with external devices couldn't use them ?
21:10:08  <planetmaker> Ammler: openttd works without sound. sure
21:10:11  <Ammler> another issue is also the missing fonts
21:10:21  <planetmaker> but you obviously want sound. Thus you should compile it with at least some sound support...
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21:10:31  <Ammler> planetmaker: don't confuse sound and midi
21:11:05  <Ammler> you don' need timidty for sound
21:11:13  <krinn> but you need it for music
21:11:20  *** lmergen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:11:22  <Ammler> but not in openttd
21:11:58  <krinn> how u do, last time i try i didn't get the music
21:12:33  <Ammler> planetmaker: or maybe with it, you are able to control volume?
21:13:06  <planetmaker> I think not
21:13:13  * planetmaker tests
21:13:26  <Ammler> krinn: music works fine just havin timidty installed
21:14:00  <Ammler> I also wonder, how it works on windows
21:15:39  <rane> where's the issue tracker for feature requests?
21:15:53  <Ammler>
21:16:18  <Ammler> or tt-forums suggestions
21:17:08  <planetmaker> Ammler: sound and music volume control work for me
21:17:27  <frosch123> midi only work for windows when using a deprecated sdk, or so .)
21:17:37  <planetmaker> though the sound volume is... not ideal
21:17:42  <planetmaker> ideal to control
21:17:58  <krinn> sound volume works great, music volume doesn't work for me
21:18:08  <planetmaker> he :-)
21:18:17  <Ammler> krinn: did you build openttd with timidity?=
21:18:17  <planetmaker> so different sound drivers handle that obviously differently
21:18:29  * planetmaker used CoreAudio framework
21:18:40  <krinn> yes Ammler
21:19:00  <Ammler> ok, then I don't needto test that
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21:19:28  <krinn> USE="iconv lzo openmedia png timidity truetype -aplaymidi -debug -dedicated -icu -zlib"
21:19:47  <Ammler> krinn: tat is not what I mat
21:19:51  <Ammler> meant*
21:20:07  <Ammler> sorry, my keyboard is broken :-P
21:20:11  <krinn> :p
21:20:37  <Ammler> krinn: did you build openttd with timididy(-devel)
21:20:48  <Sacro> grr
21:20:59  <Sacro> why deos it try to write to /usr/locall/share/pixmaps  on make install
21:21:35  <Ammler> Sacro: you can configure that
21:21:40  <Sacro> Wtf
21:21:49  <Sacro> why do half the people on the AUR symlink audio files ><
21:21:52  <krinn> the configure flags are : --without-allegro --without-libtimidity
21:22:10  <planetmaker> --without-allegro?
21:22:12  <Ammler> krinn: so your answer should have been no
21:23:02  <krinn> Ammler, yep, it's a trick: always build with it off, then add timidity as dependency if you enable the use flag
21:23:29  <krinn> # there is an allegro interface available as well as sdl, but
21:23:29  <krinn> 	# the configure for it looks broken so the sdl interface is
21:23:29  <krinn> 	# always built instead.
21:23:29  <krinn> 	local myopts="${myopts} --without-allegro"
21:23:39  <rane> Ammler: ty, made a task
21:23:55  <krinn> planetmaker, as you see, this one always set too --without-allegro
21:24:01  <Ammler> krinn: we do not ask you what your configure script says, we wonder why
21:24:26  <Rhamphoryncus> Okay, useful numbers: To accelerate from dead stop on a slop has an upper limit of 9 tonnes/grade/kN.  By 9.5 tonnes/grade/kN you get nowhere, but even at 9 it's very slow.  5 or 6 is a much better value.  HP has no effect at these speeds.
21:29:59  <frosch123> Ammler: in gentoo everything is "-devel"
21:30:17  <frosch123> gentoo has no non-"-devel" packages
21:30:30  <Rhamphoryncus> So take your 2-2-0 planet, it has 12 kN.  12*9/1% = 108 tonnes max.
21:31:28  <Ammler> frosch123: read again :-P
21:31:44  <Ammler> he compiles with --without-timidity
21:32:06  <frosch123> yes, without the libtimidity
21:32:19  <Ammler> and I get the USE="timidity" to install it like require
21:32:35  <frosch123> i cannot say for sure, but iirc the external player is recomended
21:32:40  <frosch123> while libtimidity had issues
21:33:14  <Ammler> well, the author of the ticket wrote tha openttd buids with it, but h go no musi
21:33:56  <valhallasw> Rhamphoryncus: the HP gives you the max speed on the incline (or rather: the asymptotic limit, as you might already have a speed that's higher than that speed)
21:34:09  <Rhamphoryncus> valhallasw: yes
21:34:09  <krinn> well, even with alsa+timidity you won't get any music until you setup alsa correctly
21:34:45  <krinn> i suppose your user build timidity and openttd but didn't setup alsa midi
21:35:03  <Rhamphoryncus> valhallasw: but it's worth repeating that's not a small effect at low speeds.  It's *no* effect at low speeds.
21:35:35  <krinn> env | grep ALSA
21:35:35  <krinn> ALSA_OUTPUT_PORTS=128
21:35:35  <krinn>  here to make the music works
21:35:48  <Rhamphoryncus> Hum, my 2-2-0 didn't want to go with 102 tonnes.  91 tonnes worked though.
21:35:57  <krinn> from aplaymidi -l
21:36:05  <krinn>  Port    Client name                      Port name
21:36:05  <krinn> 128:0    TiMidity                         TiMidity port 0
21:36:12  <Ammler> krinn: with timidity installed, there is no issue
21:36:29  <Ammler> but it would be nice to have it working without timidity
21:36:37  <valhallasw> Rhamphoryncus: well, sort of. if the HP is low enough, that's of course not the case ;-)
21:36:38  <krinn> with it install there's issue still, if alsa doesn't output to the right port
21:36:51  <Rhamphoryncus> Of course :)
21:36:56  <Ammler> I meant, we have no issue with it
21:37:06  <Ammler> our issue is that timidity is needed
21:37:15  <valhallasw> but with typical numbers, you're completely right
21:37:45  <Rhamphoryncus> But there's a transition point and a low enough HP makes the transition very early.  A low enough TE makes the transition very late
21:38:06  <valhallasw> yep
21:38:27  <Ammler> I can't imagine how it could work without, in that case you would also need the fonts in the openttd build
21:38:49  <krinn> if i trust the ebuild, only aplaymidi is need, timidity provide it, but alsa-utils too
21:39:26  <michi_cc> TE as used by OpenTTD is simply the amount of force that can be transmitted from wheels to the rails.
21:39:55  <Ammler> krinn: stop thinking how gentoo does it and try to explain how openttd should work :-P
21:40:40  <krinn> Ammler, that would be guess, i won't try to explain how openttd work to someone like you no :)
21:40:55  <Ammler> afaik, you should not trust the gentoo packager according to openttd
21:41:37  <krinn> well, i trust what works, and it works, but i admit i didn't tests all ebuild cases, in my config, at least it works
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21:42:01  <Ammler> hmm, didn' you just say, you can't control volume?
21:42:14  <krinn> yep i can't control the music volume
21:42:20  <Ammler> but it works :-P
21:42:33  <krinn> you may consider that an issue, that's not one for me
21:42:38  <krinn> :P
21:43:31  <Rhamphoryncus> Hum.  On the old little steam engines the threshold is more like 8 tonnes/grade/kN
21:46:12  *** ccfreak2k [] has joined #openttd
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21:49:58  <Sacro> Why does "!fish" not work :(
21:51:59  <andythenorth> what should it do? :P
21:53:46  <planetmaker> <planetmaker> !fish
21:53:46  <planetmaker> <PublicServer> planetmaker: Today's fish is smoked eel on toast with horseradish cream.
21:53:56  <planetmaker> or something like that ;-)
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22:03:13  <Wolf01> 'night
22:03:20  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
22:08:20  *** Zuu [] has joined #openttd
22:08:34  <Sacro> Grr, I can't get my GRF files right
22:08:55  <Zuu> Hmm, so you got a Grrr File? ;-)
22:09:34  *** Chris_Booth [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 12.0/20120314195616]]
22:10:58  <Sacro> perhaps
22:11:08  <Sacro> ignoring invalid NewGRF 'vast_station_tiles-0.2.0\vast.grf': not found
22:11:10  <Sacro> etc
22:11:54  <Sacro> they are in /usr/share/openttd-chillpp/data/content_download/data
22:12:30  *** xiong [] has joined #openttd
22:13:06  <Sacro> should that not be right?
22:16:44  <Sacro> trying to fix this via strace isn't easy :(
22:17:13  *** TWerkhoven [] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into]
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22:17:31  <Rhamphoryncus> Sacro: why is it \vast.grf rather than /vast..grf?
22:18:24  <Sacro> er
22:18:30  <Sacro> because I got the config from windows :P
22:18:46  <Rhamphoryncus> :)
22:19:44  <Sacro> FUUUUUUUUUUU
22:19:45  <Sacro> ><
22:20:21  <Rhamphoryncus> I bet / would work on windows too.  Works most of the time.
22:20:30  <Sacro> Yeah
22:21:33  <xiong> Anybody know how to get hold of swissfan91?
22:21:43  <Sacro> take hand
22:21:47  <Sacro> place around him
22:21:50  <Sacro> close hand
22:22:28  <xiong> No joke. We were supposed to work together Sunday afternoon but I had connectivity issues. Still do, for that matter.
22:22:31  <__ln__> although if the fan is spinning, you might hurt your hand
22:23:01  <Sacro> __ln__: true
22:23:13  <Sacro> now why are you missing some
22:24:20  <Sacro> arrg]
22:24:42  <Sacro> Dear WinSCP, when I click "Cancel" don't give me the question "Cancel current operation" and the button "Cancel"
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22:27:46  <Yexo> xiong: haven't seen him that much in here (at least not that I remember), more on the forums
22:27:49  <Yexo> so try a pm there
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22:36:43  <Sacro> How do I get autopilot to load a game
22:36:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24050 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: Realsprites inside the action 11 block were not skipped correctly.
22:38:07  <Ammler> Sacro: !rcon load game.sav
22:38:10  <Sacro> Ah yes
22:38:14  <Sacro> I think it hated the sapced
22:38:17  <Sacro> *spaces
22:38:35  <Ammler> hmm, try with quotes
22:38:41  <Sacro> Nah, renamed it
22:39:27  <Ammler> Sacro: you can also use the number
22:39:47  <Ammler> !rcon ls
22:39:47  *** Ammler was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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22:40:32  <Ammler> glx: !rcon is not a command someone should try in #openttdcoop :-P
22:41:17  <V453000> I accidentally did just today :D
22:41:20  <glx> it doesn't work here anyway
22:43:01  <Ammler> well, my !rcon here was no mistake
22:43:24  <Rhamphoryncus> valhallasw: So, using my newfound knowledge, I'm looking at the trains and.. there's only a 10% or 20% increase in TE for a freight locomotive vs a pax one, with at least that much loss in HP and often a huge loss in max speed.  What gives?
22:44:42  <Rhamphoryncus> The running cost is often lower, which in the real world is great, but in openttd the payment different trumps that (nevermind the throughput)
22:45:02  <michi_cc> Rhamphoryncus: What kind of trains did you look at? Real world trains, maybe modern ones?
22:45:25  <Rhamphoryncus> ukrs2 in this case.  It's the same experience I had with NARS but I don't know the numbers there
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22:46:36  <valhallasw> Rhamphoryncus: 10 to 20% increase in TE means you can haul 10-20% heavier trains up a hill
22:46:44  <valhallasw> but I have to agree it's not that much
22:47:36  <valhallasw> Rhamphoryncus: but also IRL electric locos are often used for both passenger and freight trains
22:48:16  <Rhamphoryncus> Heavier from a dead stop.  If your entire route is uphill both ways then maybe.  In practice it's not, so you'll get more high speed on the flat with the pax locomotive AND it'll have enough momentum to be faster on the hill anyway
22:48:47  <Rhamphoryncus> The only place it matters is if you get stopped, and I've never been able to understand the hard limit there before this conversation
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22:49:19  <michi_cc> It's different for older engines, but basically almost all modern engines with variable-frequency electric motors (which includes e.g. diesel-electrics) TE is only limited by the friction coefficient for steel on steel and weight on axles. The motor itself can basically do whatever TE you want.
22:49:20  <valhallasw> Rhamphoryncus: it also matters if you're not stopped, as you will slow down
22:50:02  <Rhamphoryncus> The pax still ends up faster because it started at a higher speed
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22:50:13  <drac_boy> hi
22:50:16  <valhallasw> if there are no red signals: yes
22:50:27  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24051 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: Comment.
22:50:56  <michi_cc> This is the explanation why e.g. most modern German electric engines all have a TE of ~300 kN, because that is the friction maximum for a four-axle engine with German max axle weights.
22:51:21  <drac_boy> hi again valhallasw :)
22:51:27  <Rhamphoryncus> michi_cc: yeah, I saw that
22:51:50  <Rhamphoryncus> Steam engines are more complicated but does openttd bother?
22:52:51  <michi_cc> TE of real-world steam engines OTOH is mostly determined by boiler pressure and cylinder diameter, which both can't be increased infinitely, so even a special freight engine can only have so much more TE.
22:53:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24052 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf_sound.cpp newgrf_sound.h sound.cpp): -Fix (r23883) [FS#5107]: Imported GRF sounds were inserted into the wrong slots.
22:53:31  <valhallasw> so.. that's typically ~3.5kN/metric tonne loco weight
22:53:48  <Rhamphoryncus> Weight on the drive wheels being a limiter too, especially with debris on the track
22:54:43  <drac_boy> michi_cc isn't it also re axles too?
22:55:23  <drac_boy> like I mean 4 low-sized axles might have something over 2 or 3 high-wheeling when it comes to nonsensitive freights
22:57:18  <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: the rails are limited in the weight they can handle (both for immediate failure and long-term wear), which is why a 6 axle diesel has more TE than a 4 axle.  It's allowed 50% more weight
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22:57:41  <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus I was talking about steam locomotives and axles in general but :)
22:57:51  <michi_cc> More axles means more possible friction weight, so yes, it can help.
22:58:41  <Rhamphoryncus> The same applies to steam.  Spread out your weight on your drive wheels
22:58:54  <drac_boy> michi_cc and I'm sure that 32 inch can start at low speed a bit better than 62 inch too
22:59:33  <valhallasw> drac_boy: that doesn't matter at all. the contact area is determined by elasticity (yielding), not by the shape of the weels
23:00:21  <drac_boy> valhallasw haven't you thought about the pistons? surely it'll work better at higher a limit
23:00:31  <michi_cc> Irrelevant for OpenTTD though, as modeling real steam engine behaviour would require variable power and TE, and OTTD supports neither.
23:00:39  <drac_boy> yeah
23:00:47  <valhallasw> drac_boy: ah, right. yes, then smaller wheels are better because it's a smaller force to deliver
23:00:52  <valhallasw> you're right
23:00:57  <valhallasw> er
23:01:27  <drac_boy> valhallasw heh you didn't mean 'smaller' I'm sure :)
23:01:47  <michi_cc> High piston velocity is not good actually, because time for proper steam exchange in the piston chambers gets too short. One of the reasons high-speed engines had to have those big wheels.
23:02:07  <valhallasw> but it's good for slow speeds, I'd say
23:02:19  <valhallasw> except that I just realised it doesn't matter
23:02:47  <drac_boy> michi_cc true..i was just talking about seeing the piston barely move an inch due to trying to shove at large wheels at low speed ... verus smaller wheels being .. hmm well I dunno how to really finish explaining that
23:02:51  <valhallasw> because the relevant number is ((the distance between axle and piston attachment)/(axle radius)) squared
23:03:33  <valhallasw> so as long as you connect the piston as far outside as you can, small and large wheels ask for the same forces
23:03:41  <drac_boy> and michi_cc yeah .. aside to large wheels don't forget the valve system ... I always did wonder how the poppet would had worked out had steam not be killed off so early as it was in north america tho
23:03:53  <drac_boy> these poor T1 and Q2's being scrapped after a short life :-/
23:05:52  *** Moopf [] has joined #openttd
23:06:07  <Moopf> hi
23:06:18  <drac_boy> michi_cc one of the other thing I always thought that seem difficult to emulate into TE was the 3 and 4 piston locomotives of various configuration
23:06:34  <Moopf> is there any site, to get custom compiled ottd versions?
23:06:42  <drac_boy> especially when in some cases the 3-piston one had higher tractive at starting and smoother curve than with an alike 2-piston version
23:07:10  <Moopf> i need a version for multiplayer with "time until restart" Message
23:07:31  <drac_boy> or how about we go into mallet (aka compound) verus simple articulated locomotives :p
23:08:40  <Terkhen> good night
23:09:02  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:10:29  <drac_boy> bye Terkhen
23:11:05  <drac_boy> anyway valhallasw what you doing by now?
23:15:26  <peter1138>
23:17:19  <Moopf> Anyone knows how to compile ottd in MVS10
23:17:54  <Moopf> always getting: "table/strings.h": No such file or directory
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23:19:35  <valhallasw> drac_boy: hm?
23:23:10  *** torkil [] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
23:24:27  <drac_boy> just asking thats all :)
23:24:44  <valhallasw> I'm not quite sure what the 'by now' context is ;-)
23:24:51  <drac_boy> heh ... now? :P
23:24:55  <valhallasw> as in: the last five minutes, the last year, the last five :P
23:25:17  <drac_boy> valhallasw have you ever seen the silly parody movie Spaceballs? there's one scene pretty much exactly just like this now :p
23:25:25  <valhallasw> nope.
23:25:38  <valhallasw> in any case, I was on wikipedia browsing random french rolling stock :p
23:26:39  <drac_boy>  do a find for "when does this happen in the movie"
23:26:49  <drac_boy> and you can see the major confusions there :)
23:27:53  <drac_boy> why french wagons? you not too interested in sncf are you?
23:28:39  <jazzyjaffa> Does the git repo at auto-update after an svn commit? Or is there a lag? I just did a pull and it seems behind.
23:29:18  <valhallasw> drac_boy: because.... wikipedia
23:29:29  <valhallasw> you start somewhere and end up somewhere completely else
23:29:45  <Moopf> noone here ever compiled ottd on a windows system?
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23:30:20  <drac_boy> valhallasw heh ok, well if you ever want to go check out the Nohab :-)
23:30:33  <drac_boy> its a classical diesel locomotive, with at least one GM one in preservation too
23:30:43  <valhallasw> NOHAB (Nydqvist & Holm AB) was a manufacturing company based in the city of TrollhÀttan, Sweden.?
23:31:13  <valhallasw> so, er, which one? :P
23:32:08  <krinn> Moopf, q1: no idea q2: no never
23:32:30  <Moopf> hm
23:32:48  <valhallasw> Moopf: check the repository for that folder/file
23:32:58  <michi_cc> Moopf: You need to compile the whole solution, not just the openttd project.
23:33:07  <Moopf> is it true, that you have to compile addons into your ottd?
23:33:21  <valhallasw> or, you know, google for the error you get
23:33:22  <valhallasw>
23:33:31  <drac_boy> valhallasw hmm odd.. only thing I know is that its gm-nohab .. might have to find the preservation's website to check again
23:34:02  <valhallasw> as glx states there (and what michi_cc states above): "rev.cpp is generated by "version" project and table\strings.h is generated by "langs" project. But they should be compiled in the correct order automatically unless you explicitely asked for "openttd" project only."
23:34:38  <drac_boy> valhallasw well if you want something else now...I'll just point you to Bullet 0 Series? :-) heh
23:35:34  <michi_cc> And only if the Windows Scripting Host is installed, but I don't know if it is even possible to have it not installed for XP/Vista/7.
23:36:07  <Moopf> i own visual studio c++ 2010
23:37:32  <valhallasw> drac_boy: meh :p
23:37:42  <drac_boy> valhallasw :-p
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23:43:03  <drac_boy> valhallasw either way I'm often interested in smaller trains....usually anything to do with 2ft to metre gauge .. although some little standard/broad gauge things are in too
23:49:42  <glx> Moopf: always open the solution
23:49:53  <glx> not only the project file
23:58:09  <Rubidium> Ammler: libtimidity support was added for some exotic system that doesn't support timidity. I have no clue whether it works, but if it doesn't... good luck fixing it as I can't install it
23:58:58  <Rubidium> also gentoo uses aplaymidi or so

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