Log for #openttd on 24th March 2012:
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07:57:05  <Terkhen> good morning
08:00:23  <Rubidium> good aftermidmorning ;)
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08:52:06  <Alberth> moin
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08:56:43  <andythenorth> bonjour
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08:57:30  <Zuu> morning
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09:23:10  <Wolf01> 'morning
09:23:28  <Alberth> moin
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11:22:45  <frosch123> haha, i don't know what distinguishes dbset 0.4 from later releases. but that someone prefers a ancient newgrf over less ancient grfs is interesting :)
11:22:57  <frosch123> ( )
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11:25:58  <Rubidium> frosch123: I know someone who'd prefer anything Russian over anything "western" hardware wise
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12:52:43  <Pikka>
12:52:45  <Pikka> oh dear
12:54:09  <frosch123> pretty cheap
12:54:19  <Pikka> pretty high capacity
12:55:02  <Pikka> about 200 billion times the population of the earth...
12:55:21  <Pikka> don't set it to full load, you'll be waiting a while :)
12:55:36  <Terkhen> we should ditch earth and get us one of those
12:55:44  <Hirundo> Noah's Ark 2.0 ?
12:57:27  <telanus> :-D, that's mighty huge
12:58:15  <frosch123> Pikka: is there already a aircraft grf downloadable, which uses range?
12:58:35  <Pikka> not as far as I know, frosch, except the test grf attached
12:58:46  <frosch123> oh, silly me :p
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13:28:34  <Zuu> Great to see that you are working on including max ranges in av8.
13:30:05  <Pikka> and found two bugs so far, Zuu :)
13:30:46  <Zuu> Only when actually using an API/feature you'll find out and fix some bugs.
13:31:22  <Pikka> yep
13:32:08  <Pikka> although obviously the pain is working out if it's a bug in the feature or in your own code
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14:02:57  <planetmaker> that's a pretty large capacity, Pikka ;-)
14:03:19  <planetmaker> full load might take some time :-P
14:03:34  <Pikka> didn't I already say that? :}
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14:04:09  <Pikka> I also like the way you can freeze aircraft in mid-air, that's a fun thing to do
14:07:19  <planetmaker> yes, you probably did
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14:13:19  <SpComb> what happens if a plane runs out of range?
14:14:05  <Pikka> it will stop on the ground at the previous airport in the order
14:14:18  <Pikka> if forced by order-skipping to fly to an airport out of range, nothing.
14:14:18  <SpComb> if you skip orders in mid-flight?
14:14:27  <SpComb> pffl
14:14:33  <SpComb> next someone writes an av8 order-skipping AI
14:15:15  <Pikka> and if you skip orders while the plane is still climbing from the runway, it freezes in mid-air. :)
14:15:33  <SpComb> that sounds like a good feature indeed
14:17:42  <SpComb> but I could see people being crazy enough to order-skip optimize their planes in multiplayer
14:18:23  <Pikka> if you're willing to babysit every plane, yes
14:19:05  <SpComb> people did it with trains, I gather
14:19:23  <SpComb> sell off the train at the destination, re-buy it at the source
14:35:04  <frosch123> i know an ai which does that, but people? :o
14:38:09  <Alberth> does testing count? :p
14:41:09  <Arafangion> Accountants probably do.
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15:14:51  <Eddi|zuHause> [23.03.2012 19:38] <Nat_aS> I think there are more examples of train companies that fund industries than there are of train companies that are also airlines. <-- actually, the german airline "Lufthansa" did run a train line, and there's a standing agreement that airplane tickets are valid on DB trains on the same route
15:16:56  <Alberth> hi Eddi|zuHause, running the 3.3 kernel already? Fedora has a 3.3 rpm :)
15:18:49  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24058 /trunk/src/ (43 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#5124]: Wrong numbering of string parameters.
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15:20:29  <Pikka> thanks frosch :)
15:20:37  <frosch123> thanks as well :)
15:20:47  <Alberth> now you have to find new bugs :p
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15:43:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: already downloaded the proper rpms, didn't get to install them yet
15:44:40  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> haha, i don't know what distinguishes dbset 0.4 from later releases. but that someone prefers a ancient newgrf over less ancient grfs is interesting :) <-- i wouldn't even know where to get such an ancient version. i have only ever seen 0.5 and 0.82 downloads
15:45:26  <Eddi|zuHause> 0.5 is offered as "the last version for 'stable' TTDPatch"
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16:18:45  <Nat_aS> morning
16:18:56  <Alberth> moin
16:19:23  <Nat_aS> Eddi|zuHause, yes, but most oil companies operate there own tanker lines.
16:21:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that it's very common that ship owners coincide with cargo owners
16:21:38  <Nat_aS> Except for oil companies.
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16:23:30  <Eddi|zuHause> oil companies are very well known for their vertical monopolies ;)
16:24:12  <Nat_aS> yeah, I just think it's silly that horizontal minopolies are encouraged in this game but vertical ones aren't.
16:24:42  <Nat_aS> it might even be an interesting mechanic if the regional inspector could start to complain if you fund too many industries,
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16:25:57  <Nat_aS> this is in response to Andy's "IT'S NOT TRANSPORTATION" Argument.
16:30:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not really about "it's not transportation", it's more about "it needs a proper economy model"
16:31:07  <Nat_aS> yes
16:31:27  <Eddi|zuHause> and no current developer wants to invest time in that
16:31:32  <Nat_aS> although the way you can already buy stock and take ovet other transport companies gives precident for it
16:31:38  <Nat_aS> just allow the same option for factories
16:31:54  <Eddi|zuHause> the last one was Celestar, and that was like 5 years ago
16:32:09  <Nat_aS> there stock price could be based on whether they are delivering or receiving cargo.
16:32:32  <Nat_aS> a more detailed economy could also make lategame less godmode.
16:32:40  <Eddi|zuHause> it's universally agreed that the current stock market concept is flawed and needs to be replaced
16:32:52  <Alberth> Nat_aS: there are a zillion proposals like that
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16:33:26  <Alberth> listing another one is very useless, not in the last place because nobody reads an IRC log to find a new economic model
16:33:35  <Nat_aS> i mean the history of railways is full of horrible corruption and monopolies.
16:33:39  <Nat_aS> true
16:35:19  <Alberth> if you mean business, start a patch. Economic models need a LOT of balancing, basically you have to start from scratch, so it will take a long time to get the patch right
16:35:51  <Nat_aS> not a coder
16:36:23  <Nat_aS> but it should probably be exploitable, and balanced by the regional inspector trying to shoot you down at every turn.
16:36:27  <Alberth> so what, I am not a graphic artist, yet I play with blender
16:36:50  <Alberth> and I am getting better at it :p
16:38:29  <Nat_aS> art is easier to get into than coding.
16:38:37  <Nat_aS> well 3d art might be as hard.
16:40:17  <Pikka> I've never even worked out how to make a box in blender
16:40:45  <Pikka> it seems to have the most non-standard and illogical user interface of any program I've ever used.
16:40:49  <Nat_aS> oh I got that far
16:40:56  <Nat_aS> there is actualy a comand to make, exactly that
16:41:05  <Nat_aS> making more complex shapes is harder though.
16:41:14  <Nat_aS> and yes the UI is, in a word, illogical.
16:43:29  <Nat_aS> but that seems to be a problem with a lot of free software, it made sense to the person who coded it. and nobody paid him to make one that would make sense to others.
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17:05:16  <Alberth> the UI is geared towards professional users, which means you have a steep learning curve
17:06:06  <valhallasw> Alberth: a professional UI can still be intuitive or not
17:06:15  <Nat_aS> yes
17:06:21  <Nat_aS> I am not implying it can't be.
17:06:24  <valhallasw> s/professional UI/UI for professionals
17:06:31  <Pikka> Alberth: I'm not unexperienced in 3d graphics, and there are some fairly standard conventions across most programs
17:06:44  <Alberth> valhallasw: it probably is, to them.   but a newbie does other things than a professional
17:07:06  <Pikka> blender is like a word processor where the authors have decided that all the keys will produce a different letter from usual
17:07:06  <Nat_aS> but in the free software market(Ha market for free things) UI for something even as simple as say a video player can be a mess of buttons
17:07:37  <Nat_aS> a good example of pro softwhere that makes no sense however would be the new MS word
17:07:45  <Nat_aS> all the MS programs have a fucked up interface now.
17:07:59  <valhallasw> Nat_aS: are you talking about the 2007 change or the upcoming one?
17:08:11  <Nat_aS> and the free alternatives... well they all look like what there MS equivlent looked like pre 2007
17:08:13  <Nat_aS> the 2007 change
17:08:14  <valhallasw> because the office 2007 change is backed by a lot of UI research
17:08:18  <Nat_aS> what does the new one look like?
17:08:30  <Nat_aS> you mean some people managed to rip MS off?
17:08:40  <valhallasw> no, I mean you're wrong
17:09:15  <valhallasw> the research proves the interface makes sense to the target audience
17:09:16  <Alberth> valhallasw: 'research' doesn't mean anything
17:09:33  <Alberth> you can buy any research result you want
17:09:41  <Nat_aS> the target audience of MS softwhere is everyone and there cousin.
17:09:46  <Nat_aS> and lots of people dislike the change
17:09:54  <Nat_aS> hence the research is worthless.
17:10:00  <valhallasw>
17:10:17  <valhallasw> 'I dislike the result, so the research is useless'
17:10:19  <Alberth> one unified UI for all is doomed to fail no matter what
17:10:32  <Alberth> valhallasw: I never even used the program
17:10:47  <valhallasw> I was referring to Nat_aS' comment
17:11:05  <valhallasw> I agree with you that 'one UI for all' will never be good for every user
17:11:17  <Alberth> s/every/any/ :)
17:11:23  <valhallasw> but you comment about research is just nonsense
17:11:29  <Nat_aS> oh, apparently office 2007 was designed for touch screens
17:11:32  <Nat_aS> that makes sense now
17:11:49  <valhallasw> it's not that you hire someone to tell you you're doing the right thing
17:11:59  <valhallasw> you're trying to find out what 'the right thing' is by measuring stuff
17:12:36  <Alberth> valhallasw: there is a positive correlation between a research question, the answer, and the answer that a client would like to have
17:13:28  <Nat_aS> throwing money at researchers is not the end all. Yes it is important, but just because the people you paid tell you what you want to hear, does not mean it's right
17:13:33  <Nat_aS> no matter how much you pay them.
17:13:40  <valhallasw> jesus christ
17:13:45  <valhallasw> did you guys even read what I wrote?
17:13:46  <Nat_aS> Even global superpower nations make this mistake.
17:13:54  <valhallasw> 18:14 < valhallasw> it's not that you hire someone to tell you you're doing the right thing
17:13:57  <valhallasw> 18:14 < valhallasw> you're trying to find out what 'the right thing' is by measuring stuff
17:14:43  <Nat_aS> yes, and measuing stuff told us that new coke was a good idea.
17:15:48  <Nat_aS> I will admit however, that people complain about change no matter what, esp if it's cosmetic change
17:16:05  <Nat_aS> because that's the most noticeable
17:17:34  <Nat_aS> and free software is not immune, look at ubuntu's new unity desktop
17:18:10  <valhallasw> Nat_aS: of course, there is a difference in marketing research ('what do people like') and UI research ('what allows people to do things efficiently')
17:18:35  <Nat_aS> well only one of them will increase sales and make the customer happy.
17:18:44  <valhallasw> I don't know if MS did marketing research on the new UI, and/or how they interpreted changes
17:18:54  <valhallasw> er, negative reponses
17:19:09  <valhallasw> No. Because the end-user is generally not the one buying the software.
17:19:15  <Chris_Booth> guess what
17:19:18  <Nat_aS> good point
17:19:19  <valhallasw> Especially in the case of Office
17:19:24  <Nat_aS> that is a very good point
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18:42:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24059 /trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt:
18:42:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:42:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 36 changes by Parastais
18:45:54  <Nat_aS> speaking of UIs, does OTTD need an update to it's menus?
18:46:11  <Nat_aS> like the depot menu was not designed for trainsets like the 2cc set
18:49:39  <__ln__> *its
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18:58:49  <Nat_aS> thank you
19:04:13  <rane> __ln__: ... lol
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19:07:58  <__ln__> np
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19:20:01  <drac_boy> hi
19:27:37  <Alberth> hi
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19:36:15  <drac_boy> hi Alberth how doing?
19:41:00  <Alberth> bored :)
19:41:21  <Alberth> wrote code all day, but not enough to get it running
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19:45:04  <drac_boy> what kind of code?
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19:49:55  <Alberth> c++ code: guests in parks, and aircraft going from X to Y :)
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19:51:03  <drac_boy> heh ok
19:51:14  <drac_boy> sounds like fun anyhow
19:51:32  <Nat_aS> is there any way to place specific buildings in the scenerio editor?
19:51:35  <Alberth> oh, and I tried drawing some lines with agg, but it's complicated :p
19:51:57  <Nat_aS> I've seen some scenerios with cities that look really handmade.
19:52:16  <Alberth> Nat_aS: the only way I know is by building random, and if it's the wrong house, remove it again
19:52:53  <Nat_aS> then whoever made this scerio is insane.
19:52:54  <Alberth> not something I'd want to do
19:54:07  <Nat_aS> look up the scenario called Cindini
19:54:16  <frosch123> yes, they are insane
19:54:21  <zooks> its done with expand and delete
19:54:28  <Nat_aS> it's huge, has detailed neiborhoods for all the cities, and is probably unplayable.
19:54:47  <zooks> there is a patch for placing buildings manually but in its current state it's not compatible with trunk
19:54:48  <Nat_aS> it has industries, but it's so hilly I can't imagine building networks on it.
19:55:12  <drac_boy> nat_as is it too hilly for even a 4-tiles station?
19:55:20  <Nat_aS> possibly
19:55:28  <Nat_aS> and 4 tiles stations on a map that huge would be sad.
19:55:31  <drac_boy> hmm sounds like something more for trams/roads perhaps
19:55:34  <drac_boy> :)
19:55:39  <Nat_aS>
19:56:02  <drac_boy> oh or water too yeah
19:56:06  <Nat_aS> it has an extensive highway network
19:56:06  <zooks> Ive played the cindini map quite some time and it is possible to get a nice network by carefully deleting some urban areas
19:56:12  <Zuu> Hmm, inserting something with eg priority 1490042763 breaks Fibonacci Heap. It only accepts priorities < 268435455 or it crashes.
19:56:16  <Nat_aS> so busses might work
19:56:28  <drac_boy> hmm I'll have to try that map now that you mentioned it
19:56:47  <frosch123> Nat_aS: <- take a look at the real screenshots .p
19:57:21  <Nat_aS> but I blame the inability to place trains docks in airports for this kind of developer's neglecting of the posibility of train networks
19:57:42  <Nat_aS> I wish this kind of energey could be harvested to making gameable maps
19:58:22  <drac_boy> umm what you mean by 'trains docks in airports'?
19:58:28  <Nat_aS> and airports
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19:58:46  <drac_boy> oh
19:58:48  <Nat_aS> I mean you can't make a scenario with preexisting networks
19:58:52  <Nat_aS> and companies.
19:59:04  <drac_boy> nat_as well its meant that way because theres no 'player' in the sense
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19:59:28  <Nat_aS> well you could make a company that gets taken over by the player at the start of the game.
19:59:49  <Nat_aS> or competitor companies that start out with full networks.
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20:01:32  <Nat_aS> what we have right now is not so much a scenerio editor but a map editor
20:01:50  <Nat_aS> a scenario usually has more complex circumstances in it.
20:02:28  <Nat_aS> like "Take over this failing company and make it profitable" or "Compete with these existing companies and eventually buy them out" or
20:02:36  <Nat_aS> "Deal with these pre-scripted disasters"
20:03:01  * Zuu tries the Fibonacci from NoCAB
20:03:06  <drac_boy> thats not a tycoon company game..more like stragety game? :)
20:03:17  <Nat_aS> ...
20:03:19  <Nat_aS> not really
20:03:26  <Nat_aS> lots of tycoon company games have scenerios like that
20:03:28  * Alberth points Nat_aS to goal scripts
20:03:41  <Nat_aS> and yes those are a step in the right direction.
20:03:52  <drac_boy> nat_as even Railroad Tycoon is listed as a stragety game fyi
20:04:00  <Nat_aS> but the ability to place company infrastructure in the editor would be nice.
20:04:14  <Nat_aS> drac_boy, all tycoon company games are strategy games.
20:04:19  <drac_boy> not really
20:04:53  <Nat_aS> anyways, games made by chris sawyer frequently have scenerios like that.
20:05:09  <Nat_aS> you are kind of being silly here.
20:06:10  <Nat_aS> most of the maps in roller coaster tycoon featured existing infrastructure for your to build off of. And almost always had a winning condition.
20:06:23  <Nat_aS> actually they all had winning conditions.
20:06:43  <Ammler> afaik, the "old" scenarios had companies in it, clearing companies in sceanrios is a openttd feature
20:07:02  <drac_boy> hmm true but btw it depended on which cd it was. one of the expansion pack was pretty much almost all blank maps
20:07:40  * drac_boy had RCT with two expansions. only kept one of the latter tho
20:07:41  <Ammler> well, I meant the old openttd scenarios, clearing companies was introduced around 0.7
20:08:11  <drac_boy> mm
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20:08:44  <Ammler> can't you just make saves instead?
20:08:56  *** mahmoud [] has joined #openttd
20:09:03  <Ammler> might not be banananble
20:09:22  <Nat_aS> yes, but the argument that A) Tycoon games are distinct from strategy games, and B) that scenario scenerios are not found in them is such a terrible argument.
20:09:32  <Nat_aS> and yes Ammler that is a workaround, but it's not really a good one
20:09:59  <Nat_aS> allowing placement of companies in the scenario editor would add a lot of powerful options.
20:10:10  <Ammler> I guess, clearing companies was an accident by an other feature :-)
20:10:19  <Nat_aS> also it would allow the scenario editor to be used as a sandbox mode.
20:10:47  <Eddi|zuHause> good news everybody!
20:11:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i can now say with definity, that r23703 breaks the 32px depot flag
20:11:15  <Nat_aS> banananble?
20:11:29  <Ammler> you can't upload saves to bananas
20:11:56  <Eddi|zuHause> he meant bananaable
20:12:04  <Nat_aS> yeah what does that mean?
20:12:11  <Ammler> hmm, you could try to simply reanme a sav to scn
20:12:35  <Nat_aS> that sounds like it would crash things a lot.
20:12:49  <Ammler> should not, that is the way, how you edit a save
20:13:00  <Nat_aS> oh
20:13:03  <Nat_aS> really?
20:13:34  <Ammler> yes, just do not laod it into the scenario editor as that would clean the companies
20:13:48  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Interesting, but quite surprising.
20:14:11  <Nat_aS> oh
20:15:44  <Nat_aS>
20:15:51  <Nat_aS> this is chris sawyer's house
20:15:52  <Nat_aS> :o
20:16:34  <Nat_aS> this is chris sawyer's university.
20:16:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: yes, we all saw that page before :)
20:20:00  <Alberth> Ammler: hi, I tried to update the hg hook script, but I failed, it seems fundamentally broken :(
20:20:29  <Alberth> which means I have to start from square 1 :(
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20:21:22  <Ammler> the one on our server?
20:21:33  <Ammler> hmm, that should still work
20:22:11  <Ammler> feel free to use the repo test for it
20:22:22  <Alberth> maybe because you don't have the hook script in the repo itself, or because you have a checked-out copy of the repo?
20:22:49  <Alberth> I could not get info from a file in the repo, which is bot at the disk as checked out copy
20:22:51  <Ammler> we link directly to the script in the repo checkout
20:23:01  <Ammler> ah
20:23:04  <Alberth> *not
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20:23:47  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: yeah, i see that the commit touches that function, but i see no (obvious) functionality change
20:25:30  <Ammler> remote: error: changegroup.notify hook raised an exception: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '.devzone/hooks/notify.ini'
20:25:43  <Ammler> Alberth: tried to push a commit with a file .grf
20:25:48  <Ammler> oh
20:25:52  <Ammler> I see
20:26:02  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: try to compile without optimisation
20:26:06  <Ammler> that is the "Eddi|zuHause" Hook
20:27:11  <frosch123> or put a breakpoint at newgrf.cpp:6694
20:27:19  <frosch123> when _cur.grffile->traininfo_vehicle_width is assigned
20:27:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it "works" when i revert that commit on current trunk
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20:28:20  <Ammler> Alberth: but the current hook still works, you have issues to get the casecheck working, right?
20:28:29  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no idea how to work with breakpoints
20:28:37  <Ammler> remote: File ".devzone/test.blub" may not be added to the repository.transaction abort!
20:28:39  <Ammler> remote: rollback completed
20:28:40  <Ammler> remote: abort: pretxnchangegroup.check hook failed
20:28:44  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: only ever used those in an IDE
20:28:58  <Alberth> Ammler: I created a test setup, but cannot get a value different from the defaults, even if I set a value in the config file. Debugging showed it does not load the file from the repo
20:29:26  <Ammler> we have global rule to forbid .grf
20:29:45  <Ammler> but we can still have local rule to allow it
20:30:18  <Ammler> global:
20:30:41  <Alberth> loading from disk works
20:30:45  <Ammler> repo:
20:31:01  <Eddi|zuHause> [24.03.2012 21:28] <Ammler> that is the "Eddi|zuHause" Hook <-- what's that have to do with me?
20:31:14  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause:
20:31:26  <frosch123> the best gui i know for gdb is "ddd"
20:31:32  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: email notify for commits
20:31:41  <frosch123> it's quite old and has some weird things, but i have not seen any better
20:31:52  <Ammler> Alberth: repo test has no checkout on the server
20:32:03  <Ammler> so you read the local config from repo, not file
20:32:06  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: works correctly with --enable-debug=3
20:32:11  <Alberth> Ammler: weird
20:32:49  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: so we have a optimiser bug in your compiler?
20:32:55  <Ammler> Alberth: I am specially suprised that you were able to make such a hook, but the "official" notify hook for Eddi needs a checkout :-)
20:33:04  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: quite possibly
20:33:40  <frosch123> unless you have a uncommon compiler version, that's bad :s
20:33:43  <michi_cc> MSVC debug seems to work as well, checking release now. But yes, suspect compiler bug.
20:33:53  <Alberth> Ammler: documentation is very much absent, I am not surprised
20:34:14  <Ammler> but your hook works very nice
20:34:41  <Ammler> no need of server side checkout but still customizeable per repo
20:34:49  <Alberth> running hg 1.9.3 ?
20:35:10  <Ammler> on the server, should be 2.1.1, let me check
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20:35:29  <Ammler> hmm, no, 1.9.3 only
20:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: (gdb) b newgrf.cpp:6694 No source file named newgrf.cpp.Make breakpoint pending on future shared library load? (y or [n])
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20:35:46  <Ammler> that is strange
20:36:00  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: if i press 'y' there, then nothing happens upon opening the depot window
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20:36:30  <Alberth> Ammler: yes it is. I don't understand it at all.  Maybe I messed up somewhere
20:36:36  <Eddi|zuHause> > g++ --version g++ (SUSE Linux) 4.6.2
20:36:49  <bremerjoe> good evening y'all
20:36:58  <Ammler> Alberth: maybe try again with the script from our server
20:37:55  <Alberth> I thought I did that (knowing myself, I have run a diff between both versions), but I can try again
20:38:16  <Ammler> I check again, if we really run unmodified version
20:38:36  <Alberth> bremerjoe: y'all  does not seem to be present, but welcome
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20:40:17  <Ammler> pretxnchangegroup.check = python:/home/hg/misc/mercurial/hooks/ <-- definitly unchanged and tip
20:40:19  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: MSVC release looks good as well, so compiler I guess :(
20:40:37  <Ammler> changeset:   155:71887afdcf39
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20:41:20  <Ammler> Alberth: as said, feel free to use repo test
20:41:27  <Ammler> cd
20:41:51  <Ammler> hg@dev:~/test> hg id
20:41:52  <Ammler> 000000000000
20:43:09  <Alberth> I'd like to have a local test setup. I am running a checkout over localhost, with hg serve. I think that should be equivalent
20:43:11  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you need to compile at least with --enable-debug
20:43:42  <frosch123> anyway, you can also try to put a "external" in front of the definition of the var in newgrf.cpp
20:43:51  <Ammler> just meant to compare answers
20:44:00  <frosch123> maybe that tells the optimizer more explicitly that the var can be modified elsewhere
20:44:06  <michi_cc> extern, not external :)
20:44:15  <frosch123> yeah :)
20:44:24  <Alberth> Ammler: will try your setup, that at least should work :p
20:44:32  <michi_cc> Or even volatile :)
20:44:38  <Ammler> hg serve?
20:44:51  <Ammler> it should also work with simple push via file
20:45:06  <frosch123> michi_cc: safe the bigger hammer for later :p
20:45:06  <Ammler> I pushed via ssh
20:45:34  <Ammler> but I am quite sure, also the http variant worked
20:45:50  <Alberth> until it works, I like to eliminate as many causes as possible
20:46:08  <Alberth> I would be very sad if I have to run ssh
20:46:54  <Ammler> well, locally, you do it that way (just without ssh) :-)
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20:47:13  <Ammler> you don't use serve usually
20:47:42  * Alberth nods
20:47:59  <Alberth> but the normal ways didn't work either
20:47:59  <Ammler> you do? :-o
20:48:28  <Ammler> Alberth: maybe you simply forgot to setup the hook?
20:48:38  <Ammler> hgrc
20:48:58  <Alberth> nope, I got errors from it :p
20:49:22  <Alberth> and output, just not the right output ;)
20:49:34  <Ammler> the script and global ini is checkout
20:49:54  <Alberth> well, I'll try again
20:51:00  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: gdb output (repeated several times with the same values)
20:51:47  <frosch123> Ammler: is there an update to that pastebin thingie available?
20:52:04  <frosch123> it always breaks when reading replies, and you have to clear the cookies
20:54:38  <Ammler> hmm, true, this is another todo :-/
20:55:28  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: well, not exactly what i wanted, but it also shows the problem: _misc_grf_features != res
20:56:08  <Ammler> frosch123: in this case, I don't see the advantage to make a replay, though
20:56:15  <Ammler> -a
20:56:42  <frosch123> what?
20:57:00  <frosch123> eddi replied to my paste, and i wanted to read it
20:57:16  <Ammler> well, he replied and replaced everything
20:57:50  <Ammler> I just meant, an alternative would be to remove reply at all
20:58:25  <Ammler> as nobody yet was able to tell me how to fix it :-)
20:58:28  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- with --enable-debug=3
21:00:28  <frosch123> does the "extern" thingie help?
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21:03:16  <Eddi|zuHause> src/newgrf.cpp:68:13: warning: ‘_misc_grf_features’ initialized and declared ‘extern’ [enabled by default]
21:04:14  <Eddi|zuHause> no change
21:06:09  <Eddi|zuHause> but "volatile" seems to do something
21:10:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm gonna screw up my system now, might take a while...
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21:38:59  <Nat_aS> bough locomotion on GOG
21:39:07  <Nat_aS> why are there no advanced signal types?
21:39:08  <Nat_aS> :c
21:39:47  <Nat_aS> realistic turning was intresting, but I can't make any kind of network using only normal signals
21:40:32  <peter1138> lomo smells
21:40:59  <peter1138> sad but true
21:41:36  <Nat_aS> also it's almst as ugly as sumutrans
21:41:40  <Nat_aS> ALMOST
21:42:12  <Nat_aS> Somehow pre-rendered sprites worked in RTC (RTC would probably be imposible to do with pixel art), but not in locomo
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21:50:11  <Nat_aS> it's strange because RTC was going to be an updaited engine for TTD
21:50:22  <Nat_aS> but apparently it sucks for that sort of thing
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21:54:14  <Nat_aS> sucks because I'd say 3d networks are the most wanted feature out of TTD
21:54:19  <Nat_aS> and the hardest to implement.
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21:58:15  <MNIM> 3d networks?
21:58:33  <frosch123> railtrack going vertically to the moon
21:59:27  <Terkhen> good night
21:59:33  <Wolf01> night Terkhen
22:00:04  <Eddi|zuHause> so... at least it booted :)
22:01:07  <Wolf01> I would like to have just the map rotation and the unlinked terrain blocks, for the other things OTTD is really better than LoMo
22:01:08  <Nat_aS> Elivated rails and subways
22:01:19  <Nat_aS> more complex bridges and tunnels
22:01:44  *** FLHerne [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:01:52  <Nat_aS> would require firstly a change in the way TTD stores memory, and secondly, all buildings to have a height variable.
22:01:58  <Eddi|zuHause> mÀh... forgot to recompile the taskbar...
22:02:25  <Nat_aS> the last would also add other interesting possibilities such as airplanes colliding with tall buildings :P
22:02:40  <Nat_aS> it's funny to watch them clip right now though.
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22:20:02  <k-man> hello
22:20:36  <k-man> is 32bbp useable with osx and openttd 1.2.0-rc3?
22:24:11  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, openttd 1.2.x on OSX can use 32bpp. no, no existing 32bpp pack can be used with openttd 1.2.x
22:25:42  <k-man> so - its not for users yet?
22:25:54  <MNIM> oh, like that 3d networks.
22:26:50  <MNIM> yeah, lomo style building would be nice. map rotation is pretty meh to me, and would requires a ton of new sprites, which is harder to make than changing the way ottd saves stuff.
22:27:12  <Eddi|zuHause> it's for users yet. but the 32bpp pack has not followed up with the development yet
22:27:47  <k-man> Eddi|zuHause, so when a pack is made, then it will be easier to use?
22:27:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
22:41:21  <k-man> thanks Eddi|zuHause
22:41:35  <k-man> i turned on some double pixel ui once, how do i turn it off?
22:42:42  *** zooks [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:42:43  <frosch123> zoom out
22:42:56  <frosch123> oh, you mean the gui
22:43:06  <frosch123> go to newgrf settings and remove the extra large gui
22:43:06  <k-man> yeah the icons in the gui
22:43:19  <frosch123> can only be done in main menu for new games though
22:44:21  <k-man> oh - so once its in a game, its in the game for ever?
22:48:26  *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@] has quit [Quit: DANGER is OFFLINE DANGER]
22:48:46  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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22:52:04  <k-man> whats the keyboard shortcut to increase land height?
22:57:54  <frosch123> q, w, e
22:58:09  <k-man> thanks frosch123
22:58:14  <frosch123> one of those, never can remember. it's always the second one i try :)
22:59:29  <bremerjoe> good night everybody
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23:26:16  <k-man> can i convert entry signals to combo?
23:26:28  <k-man> or do i just remove and rebuild them?
23:26:47  <frosch123> either use the convert tool, or ctrl+click on the signals
23:27:02  <frosch123> (ctrl+click with the signal tool)
23:27:17  <k-man> ah thanks
23:27:41  <frosch123> ctrl+click will rotate though signal types, which you can define in advanced settings
23:28:11  <k-man> whats the prefered way of making a roro exit?
23:28:16  <k-man> in terms of signaling
23:28:55  <frosch123> check the wiki or openttdcoop
23:29:02  <frosch123> there is no simple answer :)
23:29:10  <frosch123> to such a general question
23:30:25  <k-man> ok yeah it was a bit general
23:30:45  <k-man> two platform station , roro, going out to one exit track
23:31:10  <frosch123> one exit track? err... i think everything will work
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23:34:23  <Nat_aS> Hmm, the snow line setting is not seeming to work when I try to load a heightmap
23:34:26  <frosch123> <- i think it only gets interesting with more than 2 exits
23:34:32  <Nat_aS> preventing me from making farms
23:34:58  <frosch123> s/more than 2/more than 1/
23:35:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: sure you have not loaded a NewGRF with variable snowline?
23:36:54  <Nat_aS> oh?
23:37:14  <Nat_aS> the map I am stealing a heightmap from, had no snow in it
23:37:18  <Nat_aS> dispite being artic
23:38:50  <Nat_aS> it's a rather flat map
23:39:33  <Nat_aS> like only 5 levels to it
23:39:44  <Nat_aS> and snow always stats on the 3rd reguardless of setting
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23:42:26  <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_aS: double check that you have no newgrf's loaded
23:43:01  * frosch123 prepared the time machine
23:43:03  <frosch123> night :)
23:43:08  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:43:15  <Nat_aS> i do have newgrifs loaded
23:43:18  <Nat_aS> let me see
23:43:35  <Nat_aS> OpenGFX landscapes mess with the snowline?
23:43:41  <Rhamphoryncus> Yes
23:43:54  <Rhamphoryncus> That was my next suggestion, to use it for a work around :)
23:43:56  <Nat_aS> oh there is an option there to adjust it based on time of year.
23:44:40  * Rhamphoryncus closes mental ticket: NOTABUG ;)
23:46:38  <Nat_aS> darn, apparently I can't have fields one level below snow
23:47:05  <Nat_aS> I wanted to have farms on the foothills above the city in the valley
23:47:14  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, you need it a level higher
23:47:57  <Rhamphoryncus> Also, be aware that variable snowlines means it annually rebuilds, then destroys fields that are too high
23:48:13  <Nat_aS> which might be an intresting effect.
23:48:21  <Nat_aS> will farms still produce without fields?
23:48:25  *** Phoenix_the_II [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:49:06  <Rhamphoryncus> yup
23:49:11  <Nat_aS> in other news, I just thought of a killer comeback when Andy comes back
23:49:48  <Nat_aS> Fishing boats are not transportion, Fishing fleets are owned by food companies.
23:50:32  <Nat_aS> if he wants to be strict about what is and is not transportation, he should just make fishing harbors be priamary producers that create food.
23:50:44  <Wolf01> 'night all
23:50:51  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
23:53:09  *** Devroush [~dennis@] has quit []

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