Log for #openttd on 25th March 2012:
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00:17:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: it's not like we never had this discussion before
00:18:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: i think the biggest argument was "i already have the sprites" :p
00:18:35  <Nat_aS> oh that's an even sillier argument, because sprites are the easiest thing to change.
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00:18:48  <Nat_aS> although I admit the fishing harbor sprites are pretty
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00:23:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it was more about the fishing boats, not the fishing harbors
00:23:35  <Nat_aS> lol
00:23:46  <Nat_aS> anyways I was intending my argument to go the other direction
00:23:58  <Nat_aS> that things should not be excluded for not being strictly transportion
00:24:19  <Nat_aS> the strongest argument being that no company operates trains, ships, trucks and airplanes at the same time.
00:24:28  <Nat_aS> (although many operate two or three to some extent)
00:24:49  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not an argument at all...
00:25:25  <Nat_aS> well what is a better one?
00:25:35  <Eddi|zuHause> it's often not really apparent for an "outsider" to even know who owns a company
00:26:08  <Nat_aS> ???
00:26:45  <Eddi|zuHause> do you know whether your breakfast cereals and your toothbrush are produced by the same company?
00:27:13  <Eddi|zuHause> or whether these companies are owned by the same corporation?
00:27:30  <Nat_aS> yes
00:28:31  <Nat_aS> vertical and horizontal monopolies exist. Saying something should not be in the game because it's not strictly transportation is leaving out one of the most important things raillway companies do
00:29:52  <Nat_aS>,_Chicago
00:29:57  <Nat_aS> funding towns IRL
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00:39:00  <Eddi|zuHause> so? funding towns is part of the game... what exactly is your point?
00:42:35  <Nat_aS> no, Andy was saying that funding towns and industries should not be in the game because they are "Not transportation"
00:43:21  <Nat_aS> it started with him saying that replanting trees in tropic maps were useless micromanagement of something that is "Not transportation"
00:45:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. and you're talking in circles all day long...
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00:47:59  <Nat_aS> i just said it would be a comeback for when andy comes back.
00:48:07  <Nat_aS> you are the one talking in circles around me.
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00:50:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm saying your discussion has not been, is not, and will not lead anywhere
00:51:23  <Eddi|zuHause> s/lead/be leading/
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01:16:25  <Eddi|zuHause> someone stole me an hour!!
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06:10:22  <__ln__> good morning, rememmer to adjust your clocks
06:10:50  <__ln__> remember
06:13:03  <telanus> why?
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06:41:13  <andythenorth> morning
06:43:26  <Rhamphoryncus> ahoy andy
06:45:10  <Nat_aS> evening.
06:48:33  <telanus> Hi
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08:11:18  <Terkhen> good morning
08:11:24  <andythenorth> hola Terkhen
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08:12:32  <Terkhen> stupid DST, tomorrow I'll be a zombie
08:12:49  <andythenorth> can go to bed earlier though ;)
08:13:03  <Terkhen> that would be boring :P
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08:46:43  <Eddi|zuHause> why remember when the clocks do that themselves?
08:48:51  <andythenorth> hmm
08:48:55  <andythenorth> all this talk of MP is fine
08:49:11  <andythenorth> but ottd, on ffwd, doesn't max out one thread unit on my CPU
08:49:24  <andythenorth> even though it's relatively slow, and runs the fans, and drains the battery
08:52:24  <andythenorth> hmm
08:52:27  * andythenorth ponders stations
08:52:46  <andythenorth> when over-building the same tile, can variations be provided deterministically?
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08:57:40  <Alberth> hi hi
08:58:08  <andythenorth> moin
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08:58:36  <FLHerne> hi hi hi
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09:36:40  <Wolf01> hello!
09:39:55  <Alberth> hi
09:40:15  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: If it rotates through them that would be nice
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09:40:52  <Rhamphoryncus> Although.. that would be done much better with a hierarchical menu
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09:58:12  <andythenorth> hierarchical menus smell
09:59:24  <Rhamphoryncus> well, in general I agree.  For this I'd only want a special case: category/automatic/specific
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10:20:44  * andythenorth saw a suggestion recently that was not bad.  Where was it? :P
10:21:11  <Alberth> at the Internet ;)
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10:26:34  * andythenorth didn't find it there
10:26:35  <andythenorth> nvm
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10:30:41  <Alberth> check the house!   It seems to leak suggestions
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10:59:38  <__ln__> congrats Spain
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11:06:06  <Zuu> What did Spain do?
11:07:44  <andythenorth> snow for stations? +1 or -1?
11:08:08  <planetmaker> +1
11:08:17  <planetmaker> hello andy & Zuu :-)
11:08:40  <planetmaker> Zuu, I just sent you a forum mail :-)
11:08:40  <__ln__> Zuu: won the malaysia Formula 1 race
11:08:59  <Zuu> planetmaker: A second one?
11:09:11  <planetmaker> no
11:09:25  <planetmaker> sorry, then you read it already. Like 5 or 10 minutes ago
11:09:59  <planetmaker> what can I say more than "you may do whatever you want" :-P
11:10:29  <Zuu> I got a new one now.
11:10:35  <planetmaker> he :-)
11:11:09  <planetmaker> 2nd one depends probably one the time base used ;-)
11:11:17  <planetmaker> and we all know it changed during the night
11:12:14  <Zuu> the second one I mean the one where you quote part of my reply :-)
11:12:40  <Zuu> But yea thanks for trusting me to update it.
11:13:18  <Terkhen> yes, what did we do?
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11:15:12  <Alberth> hi Terkhen, some cars drove around a closed circuit really fast, and some spanish guy was the best at it
11:15:47  <Terkhen> oh, good for him... I did nothing to help though
11:16:32  <Zuu> not paying anything for him via tax?
11:17:22  <Terkhen> I don't know, I hope not... but we pay for other unrelated stuff so probably yes
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11:22:34  <Alberth> is there an AI that will transport oil from oil rigs?
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11:26:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24060 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5123] (r23504): Do not freeze aircraft mid-flight when skipping to an out-of-range destination.
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11:33:10  <Zuu> Alberth: <--- wmDOT
11:34:27  <Alberth> thanks Zuu!
11:35:26  <Zuu> Alberth: Here you can see a list of which transport modes that are supported by each AI:
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11:41:31  <planetmaker> is that up to date, Zuu ?
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11:44:56  <Pikka> gentlemen
11:45:06  <Zuu> planetmaker: I think it is somewhat up to date. I would question some "no" answers in the save/load column.
11:45:19  <Zuu> Eg. Convoy.
11:45:43  <planetmaker> ok
11:45:46  <planetmaker> hi Pikka
11:45:48  <Pikka> was a way to have different vehicle sprites in different windows introduced a couple of months ago, or have I gone completely mad?
11:46:00  <planetmaker> both :-P
11:46:23  <Pikka> point me in a direction?  I can't find it.
11:46:36  <Zuu> Most AI authors that add a new transport mode and know about the table should be eger to update it.
11:46:41  <Yexo> Pikka:
11:46:54  <planetmaker> ^
11:46:55  <Pikka> oh
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11:47:18  <Pikka> I see.  I didn't look there, I was expecting a variable.
11:47:32  <planetmaker> it is a variable ;-)
11:47:39  * Pikka reads
11:48:10  <Pikka> hmm
11:48:10  <Eddi|zuHause> you check extra_callback_info1 during the normal graphics callback
11:48:35  <Pikka> "normal graphics callback" D;
11:48:50  <Yexo> to be safe you should check (extra_callback_info1 & 0xFF)
11:48:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the no-callback callback :)
11:49:14  <planetmaker> yeah, better check 0x10 & 0xFF :-)
11:49:19  <planetmaker> or it might break at some stage
11:50:02  <Pikka> very peculiar.  why put it in var 10 and not some new variable?
11:50:12  <Yexo> because it's not available for any callbacks
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11:50:53  <Eddi|zuHause> it seemed the logical point from a programming point of view
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11:51:55  <Alberth> Zuu: I knew about that page, but never realized it could have such information too. Doh!     Thanks :)
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11:52:33  <frosch123> Pikka: the same is done for stations
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11:52:45  <Pikka> fair enough
11:52:48  <frosch123> with custom foundations / extra a123 chains for the spritelayout
11:53:04  <Pikka> but I still don't understand why on the wiki it's on the action2 page and not the varaction2 page :)
11:54:06  <frosch123> <- it's also there
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11:55:05  <Pikka> still doesn't necessarily make sense to me, but thanks for the pointers :)  I was starting to think I'd imagined the whole thing.
11:57:11  <planetmaker> Pikka, feel free to add a link in the VarAction2 page then
11:57:25  <Pikka> I will, ta
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12:01:01  <Alberth> ricky26: already decided whether you want to stay?
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12:11:46  <planetmaker> nope ;-)
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12:32:48  <__ln__>  (sfw)
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12:43:42  <Draco320> hi
12:43:45  <Draco320> :P
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12:45:00  <planetmaker> ho
12:46:51  <Draco320> HI
12:46:57  <Draco320> finally some1 talks
12:47:09  <Draco320> is this forum still alive or it's dead?
12:48:19  <__ln__> or resting?
12:48:43  <Draco320> i dont think soo LOL
12:48:47  <frosch123> which forum?
12:48:54  <Draco320> the TTD forum
12:49:05  <Draco320> this chat isnt from there?
12:49:36  <frosch123> if you mean tt-forums you can easily take a look at the number of posts made every day
12:49:51  <frosch123> no idea, who or what forum links you here
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12:50:16  <Draco320> sorry guys i dont talk english... new idiom for me...
12:50:24  <Draco320> i come from OpenTTD
12:50:33  <planetmaker> Draco320, you're in the channel, say 'hi' and someone answers in less than a minute and you go like "finally"?!
12:50:48  <planetmaker> on what world do you live?
12:51:08  <planetmaker> Do you respond to some arbitrary person chatting up to you in less than a minute at any given time of day?
12:51:18  <frosch123> this is no dating channel were everyone is actively chatting and nothing else
12:51:21  <planetmaker> esp. when the reason of the conversation is unknown.
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12:51:45  <planetmaker> good :-P
12:51:51  <telanus> :-D
12:52:53  <Rubidium> geocentric? Or do we need to swap the first pair of characters?
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13:22:39  * Rhamphoryncus tries to survive his first encounter with a dual resource industry in ECS
13:23:28  * Alberth sends some luck
13:25:43  <Rhamphoryncus> On the plus side I'd already built the second source station, enough tracks to bodge it together, and had a third train from my first industry I could refit
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13:27:05  <Rhamphoryncus> ... and the coal mine will run out of resources in 2 years.
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13:28:00  <frosch123> yeah, ottd can be very easy according to forums :p
13:28:42  <Rhamphoryncus> If I'd done this second station a little earlier I would have dodged the bullet
13:28:59  <planetmaker> openttd is way too easy and the mean devs don't do anything about that as they care *** and rather make artists' life a hell and throw away all their hard work ;-)
13:29:12  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
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13:32:30  <frosch123> planetmaker: yeah, but what annoy me most about the devs is there constant whining about the valid user complains :p
13:32:42  <Rhamphoryncus> exactly!
13:32:43  <frosch123> *their
13:33:07  <Rhamphoryncus> If they'd just do what I told them we'd have it all fixed by now
13:33:38  <frosch123> yeah, instead they sleep way into the afternoon
13:34:32  * Rhamphoryncus sleeps whenever his body tells him to
13:34:50  <frosch123> can be dangerous
13:36:43  <Rhamphoryncus> I've no choice in the matter
13:36:59  <planetmaker> yeah. they're real whiners
13:37:06  <frosch123> you should not drive any cars then
13:37:38  <Rhamphoryncus> Fortunately it's not a random occurance
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13:40:47  <Rhamphoryncus> oh yeah, wrestling with a mattress to put a sheet on is always a good way to relax before bed
13:43:08  <Alberth> if you win, that is :)
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13:54:07  <Rhamphoryncus> The coal mine has refused to die and I have tons of money x_x
13:56:21  <frosch123> it is likely subsidised by the government
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13:57:25  <Rhamphoryncus> Naw.  They turned left in the mine rather than right and found a bunch more coal
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14:18:07  <MNIM> Rhamphoryncus: did that yesterday.
14:18:15  <MNIM> that's when I found out it was /pink/
14:18:36  <Rhamphoryncus> your sheet?
14:18:42  <MNIM> it used to be yellow,  but it got washed with something red
14:18:44  <MNIM> yea
14:18:47  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
14:21:00  <MNIM> could be worse. it's just a bit "did I drink too much?" pink.
14:21:15  <MNIM> it could have been atrociously girly gay neon pink.
14:31:36  <Rhamphoryncus> Either way it won't kill you :)
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14:41:19  <MNIM> well, Im not so sure about the latter...
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14:42:09  <Zuu> You fear an epeleptic attack from too much pink?
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14:46:11  <Alberth> it could attack in the middle of the night :p
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14:56:09  <Eddi|zuHause> when an epileptic attacks you at night, you probably have other problems than your sheets being pink :p
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15:50:09  * Rhamphoryncus dresses as a pink ghost and attacks Alberth in his sleep.  Not Alberth's sleep, his own sleep.  G'night ;)
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16:19:46  <zooks> Can anyone recommend a good book/tutorial on c++? I'm very competent in python and java and familiar with the very basics in c++
16:20:26  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't learn programming by reading books...
16:20:40  <Eddi|zuHause> you learn programming by programming
16:22:47  <andythenorth> doh
16:22:53  <andythenorth> that's where I've been going wrong :o
16:23:02  <valhallasw> although a hint on the do and don'ts with c++ can be very helpful
16:23:38  <zooks> yes I do not need to learn programming, I need to get some insights in c++ to start learning that
16:24:03  <valhallasw> the 'don't forget to add a copy constructor if you have a destructor' stuff
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16:31:12  <Yexo> ^^ that rule is too general and not always applicable
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16:34:54  <Alberth> zooks:  is another thread about switching to c++
16:38:15  <zooks> Alberth: cheers, that seems usefull information for me, I will check it out
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16:54:32  <WASD_> Hello. I designed my own cloverleaf-like 4way junction and would like feedback.
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16:55:57  <MNIM> hmmmh, well, it should be able to handle pretty high loads
16:56:21  <MNIM> one thing that worries me though, you used PBS signals
16:56:21  <WASD_> nice
16:56:34  <WASD_> I'm not experienced with signals
16:56:49  <MNIM> well, if Im not mistaken trains can reverse at a PBS signal
16:56:57  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... pirates 7,7%, fdp 1,3%
16:56:57  <WASD_> yeah I think so
16:57:04  <Alberth> these ones are two-way indeed
16:57:17  <MNIM> but they do not stop at the pbs coming from the wrong side.
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16:57:31  <MNIM> ...which means... ah well, you can fill that in.
16:57:31  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: finally a result which values the importance of ftp
16:57:33  <WASD_> should i use the one with a horizontal yellow line?
16:57:42  <MNIM> Eddi|zuHause: what polls?
16:57:50  <frosch123> saarland
16:57:50  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: saarland elections
16:57:56  <MNIM> no, the one with three lights and a white and red sign at the back
16:58:07  <WASD_> Ok
16:58:28  <WASD_> brb
16:58:59  <MNIM> that has repercussions on national levels, doens't it
17:00:42  <Eddi|zuHause> not really...
17:00:58  <Eddi|zuHause> saarland is the smallest country
17:01:30  <MNIM> either way, the only other thing I can come up with other than the signs is that Id rather use tunnels than bridges, which isn't much of a change, and that the clover leaves are rather tight and don't allow for very high speeds, WASD_
17:01:38  <Eddi|zuHause> the elections in schleswig-holstein and especially in nordrhein-westfalen will be more important
17:01:44  <MNIM> ah.
17:02:02  <MNIM> am I correct in thinking that it does mean a trend, though?
17:02:15  <frosch123> hmm, the only way to get more than 50% of seats with less than 4 parties is spd/pds and spd/cdu
17:02:35  <frosch123> (well, and cdu/pds, but well)
17:02:41  <Eddi|zuHause> haha :p
17:03:08  <MNIM> lol
17:03:19  <MNIM> ask our prime, Mark Rutte, he has experience :P
17:04:41  <Eddi|zuHause> well, they had a 3-party coalition which blew up prematurely
17:05:26  <frosch123> hmm, actually none of the 4-party things make sense as they would supersets of the possible 2-party things
17:07:54  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the greens might not make it after all
17:08:07  <frosch123> good point
17:08:13  <frosch123> that might change things
17:08:47  <frosch123> no, it does not add new options
17:09:11  <WASD_> MNIM: Yeah I noticed I could make them one step bigger to the southwest and northeast
17:10:56  <WASD_> Which I then can use to improve another thing that would be hard to say with text. So I'm gonna do some upgrades and maybe post a new screenshot later
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17:11:25  <MNIM> well, that wouldn't help much, since you'd still have 90 degree turns within a single tile, which severely limits the speed with realistic acceleration
17:12:42  <WASD_> yeah i can't fix that
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17:28:47  <Nat_aS> hey andythenorth do building supplies increase the rate at which towns Grow?
17:28:50  <Nat_aS> because that would be cool
17:28:52  <Nat_aS> (In FIRS)
17:29:12  <Terkhen> you would need a gamescript for that
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17:30:41  <andythenorth> ^ what Terkhen said
17:31:18  <andythenorth> I don't know how it would be done though
17:32:00  <Eddi|zuHause> the game script would count the cargos with town effect
17:34:17  <Nat_aS> but it's not possible with just trunk and a newgrf though
17:34:21  <Nat_aS> ?
17:35:09  *** Chris_Booth[ph] [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:37:36  <Eddi|zuHause> no
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17:42:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24061 /trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt:
17:42:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:42:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 101 changes by Parastais
17:44:10  <Alberth> Nat_aS: a goal script is writen in Squirrel, just like an AI
17:48:11  <Zuu> GameScripts can grow towns based on anything, by manually calling an API function to make the town grow now.
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17:48:34  <Zuu> If it want to have GUI support (in town window) it is limited to four cargoes.
17:49:53  <Zuu> Well not exactly. But you are limited to the TownEffect enums:
17:50:04  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a cargö?
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17:50:58  <Zuu> I guess some NewGRF could contain multiple cargos that provide the same TownEffect. In that case the town can only listen for the sum of those cargos.
17:51:36  <Nat_aS> so you'd have to replace water or something?
17:52:03  <Zuu> If you want to have the goal visible in the town window.
17:52:21  <Zuu> (and also have the GS just call to set the limit)
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17:52:49  <andythenorth> what happened to the magical new town effect classes or such?
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17:53:25  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody wanted new town effects
17:53:44  <Terkhen> to my knowledge they are used by the default town growth... I don't know if GS can rely on them too
17:53:48  <andythenorth> I want them, I just didn't understand the spec
17:54:16  <Zuu> But you can also use GSTown::GetLastMonthSupplied(town_id, cargo_id) and GSTown::ExpandTown(town_id, houses) to grow based on any cargo id. In which case it requires some more work by the GS.
17:54:51  <andythenorth> I never understood whether GS are supposed to be tied to one newgrf, or (abstracted from) and universal for all newgrfs
17:55:10  <Eddi|zuHause> the latter, usually
17:56:00  <Zuu> Generally I guess they are supposed to be universal. But you can hide a GS from showing up in the GS list for evryone but those with the GS developer setting active.
17:56:38  <Zuu> Thus one can bind a GS and NewGRFs to a scenario and use that as a distribution method for a highly specialized scenario.
17:58:52  <andythenorth> is there a definition of getter/setter interfaces from GS to newgrf yet?
18:00:25  <Zuu> Something unrelated. In AIs/GSs I as developer can specify which settings that can/cannot be changed ingame. Would it be feasible to add something similar to NewGRFs (action 14?) where a newGRF author can mark a setting as safe to be changed in game? Or is that filed under the case where a NewGRF can influence another NewGRF to disable itself?
18:00:42  <andythenorth> the latter unfortunately :/
18:01:19  <andythenorth> I can provide a parameter to make my trucks red, and 'you', who thinks you know best about trucks ('they are blue'), can disable your newgrf
18:01:35  <andythenorth> or otherwise break it
18:02:01  <Zuu> andythenorth: No direct interface to communicate between NewGRF and GS. It might be possible to invent something creative by abusing eg. an engine property for NewGRF => GS communication.
18:02:19  <andythenorth> and also no spec for behaviour
18:03:13  <andythenorth> so probably, right now a mix of 'dead end' and 'work in progress'
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18:03:57  <andythenorth> the sanest approach for newgrf authors is to refuse to support GS
18:04:06  <andythenorth> that might hold true in the long term too actually
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18:05:18  <Eddi|zuHause> there's an AI callback, which could be extended to GS. but only if someone develops a sane spec...
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18:09:08  <andythenorth> it might be better to refuse to
18:09:28  <andythenorth> if GS is abstracted, then perhaps prevent GS <-> NewGRF communication entirely
18:09:58  <andythenorth> thereby forcing constraints onto GS authors, which provokes creativity
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18:10:29  <andythenorth> otherwise we just get n horribly specific, endlessly crafted, possibly pointless "GS + scenario + newgrf" offerings
18:10:39  <andythenorth> and 10 new kinds of whining when somebody in the chain breaks something
18:10:50  <andythenorth> I forgot AI :P
18:10:59  <andythenorth> "GS + scenario + newgrf + AI"
18:11:50  <andythenorth> I forsee a future where I'm not allowed to do as much as change an industry layout, because some poor dear has spent a weekend writing a specific GS requirement around that
18:12:08  <andythenorth> plus....stupidly convoluted bug reports
18:12:58  <andythenorth> "recreating this is simple: start the scenario in 1870, then achieve goals B, D, and E by 1912, in that order, then achieve goal A by 1923, but not before 1917, and THEN the bug might appear"
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18:15:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24062 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#5097]: immediately start querying the last joined server instead of waiting for the requery loop (adf88)
18:15:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24063 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#5125]: with certain versions of GCC and compiler flags the compiler could reorder some code badly causing the 32bpp depot flag not working
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18:16:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24064 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5121]: make the full snowedness level of houses the same as roads and rails
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18:28:40  <andythenorth> but in general, I'm a big NoGo fan :P
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18:38:02  <Zuu> andythenorth: So far, there have been very few GS posted.
18:38:48  <Zuu> Might be a few that are developed by someone to run on their server without sharing it with the world. Or people keeping it secret until 1.2 is released.
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18:55:42  <Nat_aS> what is the best teragen settings to get realistic looking islands?
18:56:03  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no such thing as "the best"
18:56:05  <Nat_aS> All I ever seem to get is a squareish continent with strange looking lakes.
18:56:10  <Nat_aS> the least horrible
18:56:15  <Nat_aS> :P
18:56:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i had a great inland-sea once
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18:57:04  <Nat_aS> a better map making algorithm would be neat.
18:57:16  <Nat_aS> like Dwarf Fortress or Minecraft has
18:57:23  <Nat_aS> or Alpha Centari
18:57:34  <Nat_aS> with erosion and rain shadows.
18:58:13  <MNIM> hmmmh
18:58:39  <MNIM> personally I just cheat the heck out of it and form my own mountain ranges and sea straits out of maps.
18:59:24  <Nat_aS> you mean by hand?
18:59:35  <Nat_aS> or by using imported heightmaps?
19:00:19  <MNIM> hand
19:02:39  * Nat_aS is lazy
19:02:52  <Nat_aS> I wonder if there are any good procedural heightmap makers online though
19:03:58  <Alberth> 'good' is sufficiently ambiguous to answer that question with yes :p
19:04:05  <Nat_aS> lol
19:04:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24065 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Feature-ish [FS#5101]: debug option for showing the redrawn dirty blocks/rectangles
19:04:34  <Nat_aS> ones that will consistently make formations resembling real islands or continents.
19:05:23  <Nat_aS> also, studding statistics tells me that "Good" "Approximately" and "Close enough" are unambiguous and totally valid answers.
19:05:30  <Nat_aS> :P
19:05:43  <Alberth> :)
19:06:23  <Alberth> I never looked for such programs, but I have no doubt they exist
19:06:38  <Nat_aS> I think I found one
19:06:42  <Nat_aS>
19:07:17  <Nat_aS> this looks almost exactly what I am looking for, but it seems to output in colors
19:07:25  <Nat_aS> I hope there is an option to export to grayscale
19:07:54  <Terkhen> someone at tt-forums was creating one, but I don't remember the name
19:09:55  *** vb [~antigay@] has joined #openttd
19:10:00  <vb> help
19:10:06  <vb> how do i stop a station from giving goods?
19:11:23  <Alberth> euhm, you once asked for them, and now they keep appearing?
19:12:47  <vb> kinda off
19:12:50  <Alberth> if so, not, other than by destroying the station (and optionally building a new one with a new name, so wait for the name to disappear or do ctrl+build)
19:13:10  <vb> meh, there's too many trains i will have to modify if i change the station
19:13:22  <vb> 24 to be exact
19:13:32  <Alberth> no shared orders?
19:13:35  <vb> i'm playing on a server, i'm first atm
19:13:37  <Zuu> 24 with each having its own unique order?
19:13:43  <vb> kinda off
19:13:48  <vb> something like 4 trains/station
19:14:09  <Zuu> Then you could have 6 shared order groups instead.
19:14:30  <Alberth>
19:14:44  <Zuu> => only needing to modify the orders of 6 trains.
19:15:14  <Zuu> (after having set up shared orders, which is very easy to do when you clone trains)
19:15:37  <Alberth> even making them shared afterwards is quite easy :p
19:15:45  <vb> i know but i might loose the lead
19:15:51  <Nat_aS> actualy it seems like this is no better than GIMP
19:16:06  <Nat_aS> most advanced image editor programs already have the ability to create noise.
19:16:42  <Eddi|zuHause> vb: you're better off just to ignore the goods
19:16:43  <Alberth> vb: experiment the next time, when you are last then :)
19:17:39  <vb> i replaced it with a new station
19:17:46  <vb> and it now added implicit route to trains
19:18:05  <vb> should i let it be like that?
19:19:28  <vb> hmm, nope
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19:21:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24066 /trunk/src/texteff.cpp: -Change: do not redraw the text effect when nothing changed (Rhamphoryncus)
19:21:50  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24067 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Change/fix: do not redraw up to 25% of the map when making a new vehicle visible for the first time
19:22:32  <vb> i'm doing it manually
19:26:17  <vb> i don't see a train on the replace train list
19:26:24  <vb> and i have like 14 of those
19:26:37  <vb> nvm, it was set on electrified
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19:27:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24068 /trunk/src/ (texteff.cpp viewport.cpp viewport_type.h): -Change/fix [FS#5103]: significantly reduce the area that is redrawn for text effects (Rhamphoryncus)
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19:28:23  <Nat_aS> oh I think I found a good one
19:28:27  <Nat_aS> lots of complex options though
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19:28:33  <Nat_aS> but it simulates errosion and stuff
19:28:38  <Nat_aS>
19:28:42  <vb> did i do this right?
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19:29:09  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not :)
19:29:27  <vb> i thought so
19:29:40  <Eddi|zuHause> try [?]->Zoomed-in screenshot for more details
19:29:59  <Nat_aS> Hmm, is there any way to adjust the sea level when loading heightmaps?
19:30:04  <frosch123> don't put path signals behind junctions
19:30:27  <frosch123> Nat_aS: no, but it is on the public todo list
19:30:32  <Nat_aS> because this program gave me a wonderfull landscape, BUT the scale is wrong
19:30:44  <vb> why frosch123 ?
19:30:56  <Nat_aS> it has nice natural looking hills, but I wanted nice natural looking islands :P
19:31:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: adjust the brightness in your favourite image editor
19:31:06  <frosch123> a train shall only be allowed to stop in places where it does not block a junction
19:31:22  <Nat_aS> I'll do that, or see if the options can be tweeked in the program i am using
19:31:42  <Nat_aS> but there should be ab option to invert grayscale and set sea level when importing heightmaps
19:32:44  <Eddi|zuHause> we accept your patch :)
19:33:12  <vb> are there any mods for nicer graphics?
19:33:16  <vb> 32p thing
19:33:20  <vb> b
19:33:42  <Eddi|zuHause> nicer graphics, yes. 32bpp, not finished
19:34:08  <vb> will 32bpp replace all the trains and stuff?
19:34:32  <vb> will it have curves?
19:34:35  <Nat_aS> also, will rivers/lakes ever look less square?
19:34:41  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it will not have curves
19:34:56  <vb> :(
19:35:05  <vb> but i like curves
19:35:13  <Eddi|zuHause> get a woman then :p
19:35:26  <Nat_aS> i mean angles
19:35:26  <vb> :D
19:35:36  <Nat_aS> like if you have a diagonal river it looks all zig zaggy
19:35:41  <vb> t
19:35:45  <Nat_aS> as opposed to a diagonal coastline which is straight
19:35:48  <vb> took a screenshot of the whole map and i got kicked :(
19:35:51  <Nat_aS> makes lakes look strange
19:36:01  <vb> i wish there were diagonal bridges
19:36:15  <vb> it would make the game more realistic
19:36:19  <vb> and nicer
19:36:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: maybe.
19:36:43  <Rubidium> then play locomotion ;)
19:37:01  <Nat_aS> also, who made the river algorithm. because that's actually cool
19:37:10  <Rubidium> "it's more realistic" is not a reason to implement something
19:37:20  <vb> Rubidium, what if i want to play openttd?
19:37:33  <vb> what's your problem with diagonal bridges?
19:37:34  <Nat_aS> they seem to follow the contours of the map as opposed to be random
19:39:00  <Rubidium> the amount of code that has to be changed and the fact that it breaks certain NewGRFs
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19:40:04  <vb> Rubidium, no pain, no gain
19:40:30  *** Chris_Booth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:40:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24069 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Fix (r24062): crash when not having a valid last joined address
19:40:54  <vb> it could also be developed in a separate version, and those who own the newgrfs can change them accordingly, and then release it in a stable version with everything working
19:40:55  <Nat_aS> I'd rather see subways and elevated railway than just try to make the current bridges diagonal.
19:41:10  <Nat_aS> vb, and that is how most new features get developed
19:41:15  <Nat_aS> like cargodist
19:41:42  <vb> i don't think diagonal bridges are too hard to be implemented in the game
19:41:47  <Rubidium> good luck finding a 'willing' victim for implementing it
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19:42:33  <vb> Nat_aS, sepparate water lvls and finite water would also be nice
19:42:35  <vb> :D
19:43:03  <Nat_aS> finate water?
19:43:05  <vb> could you give me an example of elevated railway?
19:43:11  <vb> finite, that is not infinite
19:43:24  <Nat_aS> Seperate water levels kinda already work, but I don't know what you mean by non infiante water?
19:43:37  <Nat_aS> do you want it to flow like in Dwarf Fortress?
19:43:37  <vb> yeah, with waterway construtions
19:43:47  <Nat_aS> well you can build cannals, and rivers/lakes
19:43:53  <Nat_aS> although the latter need better graphics.
19:44:04  <Nat_aS> just new sprites really
19:44:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24070 /trunk/src/network/ (4 files): -Fix [FS#5098]: the 'last joined' server was not properly selected anymore (adf88)
19:44:41  <Nat_aS> as for elivated raillways, I mean like
19:45:00  <Nat_aS>
19:45:15  <Nat_aS> unfortunatly OTTD's engine does not support maps with 3d elements
19:45:20  <Nat_aS> it's psudo3d like doom
19:45:35  <Nat_aS> height is just a variable pasted on top, things can't actualy exist above or below each other
19:45:45  <Nat_aS> (Correct me if I am wrong)
19:45:45  <vb> also, boats shouldn't be able to go uphill
19:45:49  <vb> it should use locks for that
19:45:56  <Nat_aS> vb, locks already exist
19:46:01  <vb> they do?
19:46:02  <Nat_aS> cannals with locks exist.
19:46:03  <Nat_aS> yes
19:46:13  <Nat_aS> I have never used them, but they exist
19:46:15  <Alberth> Nat_aS: you can build a long bridge :)
19:46:31  <Nat_aS> I think you can even build cannal bridges
19:46:37  <Nat_aS> (which exist IRL)
19:46:38  * Alberth nods
19:46:47  <Nat_aS> (as stupid as that sounds)
19:46:56  <vb> natas, not that kind of lock that's ingame
19:47:12  <Nat_aS> well mechanicly what would the diffrence be?
19:47:17  <Nat_aS> do you want it to be animated?
19:47:21  <vb>
19:47:28  <vb> locks get filled with water so it raises the water lvl
19:47:35  <Alberth> vb: implement state machines in airports, after that ship locks is trivial
19:47:38  <vb> and then the boat continues at a sepparate lvl
19:47:55  <Nat_aS> I know how a lock orks, but all you are talking about is adding a funky animation
19:47:59  <vb> the "lock" that is in the game is just water on diagonal
19:48:03  <Nat_aS> and nobody uses locks anyways.
19:48:13  <Nat_aS> yeah but it's a lot of work for little gain
19:48:20  <vb> i suppose so
19:48:25  <Nat_aS> although the code could be used for other things
19:48:27  <Alberth> Nat_aS: all canals ending in sea :)
19:48:27  <vb> diagonal bridges are more important
19:48:37  <Nat_aS> convince a programer to do it
19:48:42  <Nat_aS> and make sprites for him
19:48:47  <Alberth> become a programmer :)
19:48:53  <Nat_aS> Alberth i mean who uses cannals :P
19:49:04  <Nat_aS> if you want to move cargo on land, build a train
19:49:24  <andythenorth> it is a train game after all
19:49:28  <Eddi|zuHause> if there's a river nearby
19:49:37  <andythenorth> I don't see why there are other transport type included tbh
19:49:43  <vb> what if you want to get oil to a upper oil refinery?
19:50:08  <Alberth> load it in a train :)
19:50:11  <Nat_aS> anyways, as for subways and more intresting bridges, The game can't have things on top of each other, it cheats when it uses tunnels and bridges by storeing the trains data in the bridge's tile, and then moving the sprite over the bridge. The train does not actualy occupy the tiles it moves over
19:50:13  <Nat_aS> (I think)
19:50:21  <Nat_aS> (Correct me if I'm wrong)
19:50:25  <vb> andythenorth, it's not a train game, it's a Transport Tycoon game
19:50:55  <Alberth> andythenorth: sid meier already wrote a train game
19:51:42  <Nat_aS> if this game had layers like Simutrans (which is a shitty game dispite having some cool features) you could have bridges that actualy exist above the ground and thus could turn corners or have things built on them
19:51:46  <Nat_aS> it could also have real subways
19:52:07  <Nat_aS> but that would require changing the way memory is stored, and giving all buildings a height value.
19:52:12  <vb> you could use a button to chose surface or ground view
19:52:17  <Nat_aS> and probably other things I can't think of
19:52:18  <vb> right?
19:52:28  <vb> underground*
19:52:48  <Nat_aS> vb, you have to understand, the game needs to store data about above and below ground objects. right now it has no method of doing that.
19:53:16  <vb> it would have to work in 3d
19:53:33  <Nat_aS> yes
19:53:37  <Nat_aS> and that would be a lot of work
19:53:49  <Nat_aS> but I'd say it would be worth it if anybody was willing to invest time.
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19:56:09  <LordAro> it's quite hard to develop OTTD without a c++ compiler installed... :)
19:57:09  <Nat_aS> the problem with free softwhare is that it's free, people program what they want to program, or what's easy for them to program, and there is no real way to incentivise them to something specific short of doing it yourself.
19:57:26  <Rubidium> LordAro: yeah, ask Belugas ;)
19:57:31  * Nat_aS states the oubvious.
19:57:40  <LordAro> "error: no video driver development files" <-- what do i need?
19:58:04  <LordAro> Rubidium: is that why he hasn't commited anything for months? :P
19:59:08  <Rubidium> LordAro: some -dev package for one of the supported video driver?
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20:00:38  <vb> ok, so what else do you guys want in openttd?
20:00:44  <vb> any interesting features being worked on?
20:01:24  <LordAro> Rubidium: not sure what that is :L
20:01:45  <Alberth> vb: ever looked in the development forum?
20:01:53  <vb> nop
20:02:16  <Rubidium> LordAro: might have the information you need
20:02:28  <Rubidium> no clue what linux you installed
20:03:43  <Alberth> LordAro: assuming you use SDL, sdl-dev or so?
20:04:14  <LordAro> quite possibly, installing the sdl-dev package now
20:04:34  *** PaulYnome [PaulYnome@] has joined #openttd
20:05:05  <PaulYnome> Good evening. What is the name of the default font of the game please?
20:05:42  <Alberth> it's a built-in sprite font
20:06:05  <Alberth> or rather, it gets loaded from a NewGRF :p
20:06:14  <Nat_aS> oh wow, this program lets me edit and preview maps in 3d
20:06:15  <Rubidium> it's not a font in the sense of a font that you can just use in another application
20:06:43  <Rubidium> you might be able to create an useable font file from the graphics, but that's far from trivial
20:07:00  <PaulYnome> OK here's my problem. I want a bigger font, so I've edited my openttd.cfg. But it requires a name of font, and I just love the default one.
20:07:01  <Alberth> or a font in the sense that you have some *.ttf file for it, or so
20:07:23  <PaulYnome> Is there an another way to get the default font bigger?
20:07:29  <Rubidium> PaulYnome: the default font has basically only one size
20:07:54  <PaulYnome> Such a bad news.
20:08:07  <LordAro> someone should make a .ttf openttd font :)
20:08:13  <Rubidium> if you want it bigger, you have to redraw all characters (and create a proper font file from it)
20:08:18  <Rubidium> @seen someone
20:08:18  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: someone was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 23 weeks, 0 days, 2 hours, 30 minutes, and 39 seconds ago: <Someone> indeed
20:08:42  <Rubidium> there, even someone agreed with you... 1.5 years ago
20:09:07  *** pugi_ [] has joined #openttd
20:09:26  <Ammler> :-)
20:11:39  <vb> @seen jews
20:11:39  <DorpsGek> vb: I have not seen jews.
20:12:30  <Ammler> PaulYnome: good news is that the font (opengfx) is gpl and you could make fully free ttf from it :-)
20:12:49  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:13:15  <Ammler> hmm, which might have other extension as ttf then
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20:14:12  <PaulYnome> thanks Ammler, but I haven't neither the skills, nor the time
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20:16:23  <LordAro> why does ottd still need libtimidity? it doesn't exist even on the debian unstable repos :L
20:16:54  <Ammler> lol, why does this question arise that often lately?
20:17:00  <Nat_aS> man this program is awesome
20:17:05  <vb> crysis have nicer graphics than this game
20:17:08  <Nat_aS>
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20:17:17  <vb> crysis have nicer graphics than this game
20:17:27  <Nat_aS> vb Crysis have nicer graphics than anything
20:17:32  <Nat_aS> but this game is not crysis
20:17:33  <Ammler> LordAro: why do you think, it is needed?
20:17:36  <vb> and in battlefield3 you can destory buildings
20:17:43  <vb> with rocket launchers
20:17:48  <Nat_aS> you can destroy buildings in this game.
20:17:55  <vb> in minecraft you can dig in the ground
20:17:57  <Nat_aS> with dynamite.
20:18:00  <Nat_aS> and flooding
20:18:37  <LordAro> Ammler: yes, but its so old it doesn't exist anymore. can't ottd be changed to use timidity or something similar?
20:20:20  <Ammler> LordAro: Why
20:20:46  <LordAro> " its so old it doesn't [barely] exist anymore"
20:20:57  <Ammler> no, I mean, why do you think, it is needed
20:20:57  <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: this game does not need libtimidity at all
20:21:27  <LordAro> does not 'need' it, but 'would be nice if it did'
20:21:34  <Ammler> why
20:21:40  <Eddi|zuHause> no
20:21:44  <LordAro> and i don't like seeing the 'not found' message at configure
20:21:48  <LordAro> :P
20:22:33  <Rubidium> LordAro: don't forget to install the cocoa video driver then ;)
20:23:05  <LordAro> thats different, it says "not OSX, skipping"
20:23:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't ever pay attention to configure messages
20:23:08  <LordAro> :P
20:23:20  <Eddi|zuHause> unless it has nonzero exit code
20:25:19  <Ammler> well, it would be nice, if you could modify the music volume
20:25:34  <LordAro> "i386 architecture of input file `alloc_func.o' is incompatible with i386:x86-64 output" <-- umm, help?
20:26:21  <LordAro> while linking strgen
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20:28:48  <Rubidium> does a make clean help?
20:28:52  <Eddi|zuHause> used an old checkout from your previous computer?
20:29:10  <LordAro> indeed :L
20:29:17  <LordAro> sorry, i should have thought of that
20:30:08  <vb>
20:30:11  <vb> i made this in sketchup
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20:30:16  <vb> :D
20:33:13  <vb> i have to nail it
20:34:12  <Nat_aS> how complicated is an erosion algorithm?
20:34:28  <Nat_aS> it seems to be time consuming, but what does the actual code look like?
20:34:45  <vb> a+b=c
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20:35:42  <frosch123> night
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20:36:09  <Nat_aS>
20:36:30  <Nat_aS> i might want to even learn how to program just to figure out how to make a better terrain creator.
20:38:38  <Nat_aS> this math goes over my head already though.
20:47:13  <Nat_aS> hmm, a gradation level might also be a good idea, for importing heightmaps
20:47:26  <Nat_aS> to make hills less steep
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20:54:51  <Eddi|zuHause> if anything, hills need to be steeper
20:55:17  <Nat_aS> well I'm talking about importing heightmaps made by another program
20:55:27  <Nat_aS> and it tends to give me no flat areas at all to work with
20:55:56  <Nat_aS> a map needs intresting terrain features, but it also needs places where things can be built.
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20:56:23  <Nat_aS> the document I linked says it more eloquently.
20:56:28  <Nat_aS> or more wordily rather
20:57:34  <Nat_aS> dump incoming
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20:58:52  <Nat_aS> In most computer games and VR environments using large-scale outdoor terrain, persons or vehicles move around on the terrain, and various structures are placed on the terrain. Movement and structure placing is often restricted to low incli-nations, which means that a low average value of a height map’s corresponding slope map is desirable. This rule alone would make a perfectly flat height map ideal, which is why a second rule is added
20:58:53  <Nat_aS> saying the greater the standard deviation of the slope map, the better. The ideal for eroded terrain is therefore a height map whose corresponding slope map has a low mean value (reflecting the overall flattening of the terrain due to material deposition) and a high standard deviation
20:59:55  <Nat_aS> in other words we need steep hills to serve as obstacles, and wide valleys to place things inside of.
21:00:12  <Wolf01> 'night
21:00:17  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
21:00:26  <Nat_aS> but most terrain generators can only seem to make either huge plains or jaggy mountain ranges.
21:02:10  *** pugi [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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21:03:03  <Nat_aS> just noise or fractals wont give that kind of control without another algorithm layered on top of it.
21:03:38  <Nat_aS> how does teragenisis' "Variety distribution" work anyways, i'm not really sure what effect it has on the maps.
21:04:19  *** pugi_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:06:54  <MNIM> you also need river generation.
21:07:11  <Nat_aS> actualy, I don't have as much of a problem with that
21:07:17  <Nat_aS> teragenisis seems to do that well
21:07:19  <MNIM> most features on earth are caused by water flow.
21:07:23  <Nat_aS> all we need are better river tile sprites
21:07:26  <MNIM> like valleys and such.
21:07:32  <Nat_aS> although it does do thoes backwards.
21:07:53  <Nat_aS> makes rivers follow the contours instead of contours follow the rivers.
21:08:32  *** peteris [~peteris@] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
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21:13:24  <Nat_aS> this program lets me mess around with the map in 3d though, it's so cool
21:13:34  <Nat_aS> I wish I had some of these options in SC4
21:14:01  <Terkhen> good night
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21:23:30  <vb> yay
21:23:32  <vb>
21:24:27  <Nat_aS> those are some rusty tracks
21:24:40  <Nat_aS> also, the sleepers appear to be made out of particleboard
21:24:48  <Nat_aS> or rather fiberboard
21:25:04  <Nat_aS> whatever you call that fake wood made out of recycled plastic.
21:26:13  <Nat_aS> this is the kind of map I get from that program, it looks really realistic, but is completly unplayable
21:27:55  <MNIM> Im kindof reminded of RCT
21:28:01  *** FlyingFoX [] has joined #openttd
21:28:13  <MNIM> ...which is not too odd considering what RCT actually is. :P
21:29:18  <Nat_aS> hmm?
21:29:33  <FlyingFoX> hi what is the best way to install the newest openttd version under ubuntu? if possible with automatic updates through my package manager, or is that not possible
21:30:49  <FlyingFoX> i just tried to install through the package manager, but that only gives me 1.0.4
21:33:37  <zooks> you can download the latest version from the site itself, installing is pretty straightforward
21:33:49  <FlyingFoX> hm yeah ok
21:33:54  <FlyingFoX> im gonna do that then
21:34:15  <FlyingFoX> i just thought there might be a custom repository or something
21:34:21  <zooks> you can even select the ubuntu package there
21:34:21  <FlyingFoX> so i can get automatic updates :)
21:34:40  <zooks> oh no idea if someone did a custom repo
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22:09:41  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: added plugin for you to devzone, you find send diff mail on your account settings
22:10:09  <Eddi|zuHause> thanks. i'll try it tomorrow
22:10:38  *** pugi [] has quit []
22:10:55  <Ammler> and I can tell it works, stupid me tried it and refetched opengfx, so I got 1000 mails :-)
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23:32:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i once got a 100MB email from such a tool
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23:40:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24071 /trunk/src/ (pbs.cpp train_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#5093]: Reversing trains while they were entering or leaving a depot could lead to stuck trains.
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