Log for #openttd on 29th March 2012:
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08:57:55  <GBerten2936> #Bend it, bend it, just a little bit. And take it easy, show you're likin' it.
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08:58:44  <lugo> ah well andythenorth isn't here anyways..
08:58:49  * lugo stops singing
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10:06:11  <Terkhen> hello :)
10:07:15  <Eddi|zuHause> why does a program (that ran before (long ago)) say that msxml4 is not installed, but winetricks says it is installed?
10:08:46  <Rhamphoryncus> ahoy
10:09:03  <Rhamphoryncus> different wine configs?
10:09:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i gave the proper WINEPREFIX
10:09:26  <Eddi|zuHause> both times
10:09:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and i checked, winetricks does give different results when leaving it out
10:10:38  <Eddi|zuHause> but there doesn't seem to be a "force" option
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10:23:19  <MNIM> I dunno, eddi, but in my personal experience wine is a roulette.
10:23:28  <MNIM> one day it works, the other day it doesn't.
10:27:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i find it quite rare that something stops working, after it worked once
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10:27:31  <MNIM> muh. every day experience to me.
10:27:50  <Rhamphoryncus> My success rate with wine is probably.. 25%?
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10:29:57  <Terkhen> I had some success, but it was my 0% success rate with new game releases what drove me back
10:32:45  <Rhamphoryncus> Usually it's ones that are listed as working too
10:34:46  <Eddi|zuHause> that may depend on graphics card and stuff
10:35:39  <Rhamphoryncus> Could very well
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10:36:43  <Eddi|zuHause> and most problems are (still) due to copy protection mechanisms failing
10:38:19  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i just try installing it again
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10:44:12  <Eddi|zuHause> "cool" ... the installer fails also :)
10:45:47  <Eddi|zuHause> err:msi:ITERATE_Actions Execution halted, action L"ISVerifyScriptingRuntime" returned 1603
10:46:01  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever that means
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10:50:44  <Peping> Hello, if I want to create a new disaster object, like Zeppelin or so, using NewGRF, what feature do I specify it as?
10:51:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you can specify new disasters via newgrf
10:51:15  <Peping> I thought it should be FEAT_OBJECTS but I'm not so sure.
10:51:20  <Peping> really?
10:51:52  <Eddi|zuHause> FEAT_OBJECTS is for lighthouses and stuff
10:52:20  <Peping> I know... And that's my other question. Can these move around?
10:52:25  <Eddi|zuHause> no
10:52:35  <Peping> alright. Thanks.
10:52:44  <Eddi|zuHause> you can animate them, but only within the tiles you placed them on
10:53:59  <__ln__> so there is something newgrfs can't do?!?!
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11:59:43  <planetmaker> Peping, most probably the "correct" way to implement new disasters might be via game scripts. Though it might need extension on the source code side of OpenTTD, too
12:00:32  <Eddi|zuHause> but you can't bundle graphics with a game script
12:01:12  <Eddi|zuHause> (maybe game scripts could force-activate a grf?)
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12:07:41  <planetmaker> you can't. But iirc you can on bananas set respective dependencies. If that works (I didn't quite test that), a force-selection (or disabling the game script in the NewGRF's absence) would be an option.
12:07:47  <planetmaker> probably rather the latter
12:09:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it would definitely need GUI support to activate the grf when selecting the game script, and to tell people that removing the grf will deactivate the game script
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12:09:33  <Eddi|zuHause> just a bananas dependency won't work
12:10:40  <Eddi|zuHause> and an action14 entry to hide the GRF from the general public
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12:21:25  <planetmaker> yes, such support would make sense. though I think it can work without, oo
12:21:28  <planetmaker> *too
12:24:34  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24078 /trunk/src/ (pbs.cpp train_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#5093,FS#5130] (r24071): A fix that breaks all other cases isn't really a fix. Redo it to make sure that reservations of trains entering or exiting depots are properly made and freed.
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12:59:35  <Peping_> Any ideas where to get started on Game Scripts?
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13:07:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the wiki, i suppose
13:08:51  <planetmaker> or one of the existing projects on the DevZone
13:09:10  <Peping> I found Wiki very vague. It took me some time to realize that NoGO is a synonym for Game Scripts. Found this:
13:09:53  <planetmaker> OpenTTD has a history of nice acronyms :-)
13:10:07  <planetmaker> the API is documented at
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13:26:45  <Belugas> hello
13:31:17  <SpComb> yags
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14:32:10  <ffpp> does anyone who plays pax games and cargo dist actually use buses and trams inside of towns ?
14:32:50  <SpComb> yes
14:33:14  <ffpp> is there a trick to it to not get the roads crowded like stupid ? ^^
14:33:25  <SpComb> use big trams
14:33:39  <SpComb> and keep your level of service down enough that you don't get too many pax at your stations :)
14:33:58  <ffpp> even with those I had only limited success, maybe it's me
14:34:40  <ffpp> since I discovered 2cc metros I tend to demolish a line of road through the city and just send in some metros, they usually do the job, but it looks ugly
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14:41:01  <ffpp> btw, how do you keep the service level down on stations ?
14:42:16  <SpComb> provide bad service :P
14:44:03  <ffpp> when I tried that (implicitly) I just had people piling up on the station and the whole network got less efficient due to the wait times I think
14:44:40  <planetmaker> (big) trams often server a good purpose
14:45:01  <planetmaker> like those from the Japanese set. Or also the generic tram set
14:45:14  <planetmaker> s/server/serve/g
14:45:27  <planetmaker> and use many of them
14:45:46  <SpComb> but of course, some people hacked their openttd to generate fewer passengers..
14:46:50  <planetmaker> even some people hacked openttd to implement destinations or distribution of cargo ;-)
14:47:20  <planetmaker> 'fewer people' could probably be achieved by using an appropriate house NewGRF
14:50:25  <ffpp> well, the issue only came up since cargodist for me ;) since then my roads have been regularly stuffed with RVs
14:50:52  <ffpp> I just wanted to know if I'm the only one ^^
14:50:54  <Eddi|zuHause> well, without cargodist you never were interested whether hundreds of people piled up at the station
14:51:01  <ffpp> true
14:51:42  <Eddi|zuHause> congestion of lines should probably have feedback on station rating
14:53:20  <ffpp> yes, and over the course of time this should generate less passengers
14:55:29  <ffpp> one expirement once was: send huge local trains (7 tiles or so) around the town in two circles, one clock-wise and one ccw, but then the loading times of the trains where so long that the whole system still collapsed
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15:04:30  <Eddi|zuHause> in my yacd game (,%205.%20Nov%201988.png 12MB) i just barely managed to get the passengers transported
15:06:59  <SpComb> it's fairly impossible with the steam trains unless you flatten the entire map
15:07:26  <SpComb> but if you limit town growth, then it becomes manageable once you get modern trains (dbsetxl)
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15:09:49  <ffpp> I'm using ukrs2 at the moment, starting 1850 but also with very small towns
15:10:05  <ffpp> eddi, is this 128 x 512 mapsize ?
15:10:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it was 256x512
15:10:30  <Eddi|zuHause> or 128x256
15:10:49  <Eddi|zuHause> more than 1:2 ratio makes the terrain generator look bad
15:10:51  * ffpp measures at screen with hand
15:11:07  <ffpp> 256x512 seems fitting
15:13:04  <Eddi|zuHause> lets see if i have a version which can load this game...
15:13:57  <ffpp> how many stops are included in one cycle of a bus ?
15:14:23  <Eddi|zuHause> yacd/loisachkirchen_r22434.diff that sounds right...
15:14:28  <keky___> oi
15:14:48  <Eddi|zuHause> hey that actually worked
15:19:25  <__ln__>
15:19:34  <Eddi|zuHause> ffpp: of a few random lines, my longest seems to be 7 stations (from end to end, so 12 in a roundtrip)
15:21:39  <ffpp> I'm surprised this is working so well ;) but it has been a while since I played a game with really large towns
15:21:40  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: "JavaScript and ActiveX must be enabled to view the image gallery"
15:21:49  <SpComb> we need an extended .psav savegame format that bundles the diff against trunk with the savegame data :)
15:22:14  <Eddi|zuHause> ffpp: the trams are manageable. the trains are struggling
15:22:16  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: lol
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15:23:34  <Eddi|zuHause> ffpp: the longer the line, the less of an issue is the loading time, actually
15:24:30  <ffpp> wrt to trams ?
15:24:47  <ffpp> -to
15:25:16  <ffpp> it takes less of a portion out of the overall travel time I guess
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15:27:03  <Eddi|zuHause> ffpp: key element is to timetable the trams so they do not bunch up
15:28:25  <Eddi|zuHause> ffpp: planes are near hopeless
15:28:41  <ffpp> the automatic timetable and separation patch was a blessing for that
15:29:27  <ffpp> and yes, planes seem to spend large portions of time blocking each other on airports, as I remember them at least
15:32:09  <jazzyjaffa> Eddi|zuHause: Is that save available? I'd like a large comlex net like that for testing some performance changes to yacd
15:32:50  <Eddi|zuHause> jazzyjaffa: i can give you the game and the patch
15:33:05  <Eddi|zuHause> jazzyjaffa: it's a slightly modified yacd 1.1
15:33:25  <jazzyjaffa> Eddi|zuHause: Ah ok, thanks. Would still be useful.
15:33:26  <Eddi|zuHause> (some backported yacd 2.x patches)
15:33:46  <jazzyjaffa> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah I can hack it to get it loaded
15:34:30  <ffpp> would one need many newgrfs to load it properly ?
15:36:51  <michi_cc> jazzyjaffa: together with (close to 2.3 with a few modifications and fixes).
15:37:44  <michi_cc> Some NewGRFs aren't on bananas, but the coop pack should have them.
15:38:21  <jazzyjaffa> michi_cc: Nice, thanks. So far I was just using a few AI's, but that doesn't make for good nets.
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16:03:57  <ffpp> is there a way to retrieve what newgrfs are used by a savegame ?
16:04:13  <ffpp> never mind ...
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16:07:38  <planetmaker> :-)
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16:29:54  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I made you some damnest lies (in the chilpp thread)
16:31:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it's not that simple. some things were backported from trunk
16:33:08  <Rubidium> but anywhere near the magnitude as the rest of the changes?
16:39:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
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17:08:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Assertion failed at line 1867 of /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/yacd/src/vehicle.cpp: this->IsGroundVehicle()
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17:09:59  <planetmaker> sounds like something fixed already?
17:10:17  <Eddi|zuHause> quite possibly...
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17:13:25  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: was that just a guess or do you have any information about that?
17:13:40  <Eddi|zuHause> like the bug report, or the fixing commit
17:13:56  <Eddi|zuHause> or whether this is a trunk bug or a yacd bug
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17:15:29  <Eddi|zuHause> note: when this happened, i just rerouted some aircraft from one airport to another
17:15:48  <planetmaker> I seem to recall seeing this assertion. Thus it must have occured before
17:15:59  <planetmaker> But I can't give you a rev which fixed it
17:16:12  <planetmaker> (or actually whether it was in trunk indeed)
17:17:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it definitely doesn't appear in the channel logs
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17:20:09  <planetmaker> I also tend to read all bug entries on flyspray ;-) But that has no convenient way to be searched for anything like this
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17:22:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that seems close enough to be relevant
17:24:22  <Eddi|zuHause> r22492 seems easy enough to "backport" then
17:24:24  <planetmaker> indeed
17:26:05  <planetmaker> makes it sadly visible how old yacd already is.
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17:30:14  <Eddi|zuHause> similar calculation as chillpp applies here :)
17:32:05  <planetmaker> yeah...
17:33:58  <ffpp> you should have put it into trunk as long as it was still hot :)
17:34:11  <ffpp> but that is probably easier said than done
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17:36:00  <planetmaker> would have been easy.
17:36:07  <planetmaker> And slowed down OpenTTD considerably
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17:36:54  <Matulla> Hi question will the area of a town expend as the town growes or will it stay as the beginning
17:37:42  <planetmaker> it will grow, too
17:37:50  <Matulla> Thanks
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17:38:23  <Wolf01> evening
17:38:30  <Matulla> isent there a cheed or tool that markes the tiles of the town s
17:41:26  <michi_cc> Simply bringing YACD up to current trunk isn't hard, the parts it's interacting with didn't change much. I just don't see a point without any real improvments, and that's waiting on me having sufficiently long free time.
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17:42:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24079 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt latvian.txt polish.txt):
17:42:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:42:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by OliTTD
17:42:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 7 changes by Parastais
17:42:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
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17:43:25  <Eddi|zuHause> having destinations makes it really easy to do multi-terminal airports :)
17:43:40  <planetmaker> :-)
17:44:38  <ffpp> would have been easy.  <<  had every patch of the pack been reviewed already ?
17:44:53  <Nat_aS> having destinations makes moving passingers worthwhile
17:45:12  <planetmaker> ffpp, yes
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18:02:14  <Eddi|zuHause> GermanRV seriously needs to balance length vs. capacity
18:02:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i replaced a tram with a more modern tram with the same capacity. but it's longer, so fewer fit into a station. now my entire network deadlocked
18:02:59  *** mkv` [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:04:31  <oskari89> Why there's some places where some vehicles have 100% loaded, but aren't going anywhere, intresting..
18:04:42  <oskari89> (Has a lan game with his wife here) ):
18:04:43  <oskari89> *:)
18:05:07  <oskari89> Just stuck on that "loading" stage..
18:05:14  *** Markavian [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:05:42  <Alberth> time table?
18:05:50  <oskari89> Whoops.
18:06:24  <oskari89> Shared orders...
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18:06:46  <oskari89> How to cancel all timetables from shared orders?
18:07:34  <Alberth> no idea, does the wiki tell ?
18:07:34  <oskari89> Oh, i see...
18:08:43  <oskari89> No problem anymore :P
18:09:25  * Alberth likes people self-solving their problems :p
18:09:53  <Nat_aS> Eddi|zuHause that sounds really bad, most of the time vehicles get more capacity for the same/less length over time.
18:10:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: the problem of GermanRV is that it sticks quite literally to the "realistic" capacity, but the vehicle lengths don't match.
18:11:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: in one instance, two vehicles have the same "realistic" length, but the ingame length is twice
18:11:33  <Nat_aS> that can be a problem with "realistic" sets
18:11:37  <V453000> realism :-D
18:11:51  <Nat_aS> they are rarely balanced, and often important quirks cannot be modeled.
18:12:29  <Nat_aS> This new train is super expensive but statisticly worse than other trans, in real life it's price is justified by some fancy gimic that has no baring on a video game.
18:13:55  <Nat_aS> i kind of noticed that in the North american pack, although you could probably fudge features like "Enviromentaly friendly" as lower operating costs and reduced breakdowns.
18:14:11  <oskari89> Nah, sometimes it's good to have realistic capacities, such as in Finnish Trainset MU:s..
18:14:44  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, the size / passenger ratio might be "realistic" though :-)
18:14:51  <Nat_aS> MUs?
18:14:53  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, it's not
18:15:20  <oskari89> and
18:15:24  <Nat_aS> I do like gimics like faster loading, steam power units, and mandatory cabooses.
18:16:03  <Nat_aS> but I don't think it's a good idea to base train stats 100% on real life, it's better to make a set where all the trains can be potentially profitable
18:16:19  <oskari89> Some stations in certain cities have extraordinary busy passenger stats, so no problem..
18:16:39  <Nat_aS> lol yes
18:16:50  <Nat_aS> passinger boom can make anything draw a profit
18:17:12  <Nat_aS> I actualy use the red devil from tropic refurbishment set for inner city passenger service
18:17:23  <Nat_aS> on the same line as Electrics
18:17:25  <Nat_aS> :V
18:17:39  <Nat_aS> and imagine it as a musiem piece.
18:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's one of the reasons i decided that CETS should not modify capacity over time, and to not base anything on "realistic" capacities, but use pure length/capacity ratio
18:17:52  <Nat_aS> (I think even then it's too expensive)
18:18:27  <Nat_aS> i actualy do think it's fun to have one or two "I dare you to try to find an instance where you can use this" engines.
18:18:34  <Nat_aS> because how cool it is when you do.
18:20:04  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, probably good choice. Realistic capacities make little sense
18:22:18  <Nat_aS> well it make sense for capacity to increse over time
18:22:27  <Nat_aS> but that should mean trains getting shorter.
18:22:30  <Nat_aS> not longer
18:22:40  <Nat_aS> and not by much
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18:54:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: the only net capacity increase will be the introduction of commuter/metro trains
18:54:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: other than that you have the choice between slow/high capacity and fast/low capacity trains
18:55:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: only speed will increase over time, not capacity
18:55:27  <Eddi|zuHause> (that's of course completely different for freight wagons)
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19:05:12  <Nat_aS> i was talking about freight waggons
19:05:21  <Nat_aS> passinger trains are limited by type
19:05:43  <Nat_aS> like double decker and metro trains will increase capacity at cost of speed.
19:06:04  <Nat_aS> but normal passinger cars ought to stay the same by lenght
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19:16:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: freight wagons are depending mainly on axle weight
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19:20:05  <Nat_aS> which does improve over time yes?
19:21:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:21:44  <Eddi|zuHause> and that is also roughly oriented along the real capacities
19:23:30  <Eddi|zuHause> man, i have no idea how i can fit another transrapid track onto this map...
19:23:42  <Nat_aS> screenshot?
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19:28:39  <Eddi|zuHause>,%205.%20Nov%201988.png <-- 12MB (earlier version)
19:29:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a transrapid from Wiedhus Airport to Wörnitzkirchen Airport
19:30:00  <Eddi|zuHause> but i need another one from Wiedhus to Loisachkirchen
19:30:14  <Eddi|zuHause> which is kinda diagonal, so placing tunnels is problematic
19:30:22  <Eddi|zuHause> especially with a large enough curve radius
19:30:50  <Nat_aS> Dem boats
19:31:01  <Nat_aS> Dem Islands
19:31:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and bridges are not fast enough
19:31:27  <Nat_aS> Dem multi-platform stations
19:32:57  <Nat_aS> so what part of the map?
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19:34:28  <Eddi|zuHause> from the left to the center
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19:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause> center/right
19:35:21  <frosch123> if you cannot build a diagonal track
19:35:33  <Eddi|zuHause> preferably without lowering any mountain top :)
19:35:35  <frosch123> then build a rectangular connection
19:36:11  <frosch123> it will only take around 1.4 times longer
19:36:21  <Nat_aS> found it
19:36:22  <frosch123> resp. 0.4
19:36:59  <Nat_aS> Hmm, yeah the inproved speed of transrapids would make the ineficency of a rectangular route less of a problem
19:37:15  <Nat_aS> and it could have more stops
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19:38:32  <Nat_aS> i love the land reclamation airports
19:38:53  <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: what grf is supplying those trees?
19:39:23  <Nat_aS> that brick factory in the far upper right,
19:39:27  <Nat_aS> it's so lonely
19:39:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it's called "treesw.grf" which is a modified variant of "stolentreesw.grf"
19:39:41  <Nat_aS> hidden away in a valley, with no connections to anything
19:39:51  <Nat_aS> so third hand trees?
19:40:02  <goodger> ta
19:40:37  <Nat_aS> connect that brick factory to something
19:40:39  <Nat_aS> it's so lonely
19:41:01  <Nat_aS> or what is it?
19:41:06  <Nat_aS> a textile mill?
19:41:11  <Eddi|zuHause> indeed
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19:42:46  <Nat_aS> wow the station at Havelkirchen is intresting
19:42:51  <Nat_aS> made me doubletake
19:42:57  <Nat_aS> trains go under it
19:43:52  <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean?
19:43:56  <Nat_aS> Havelkirchen is not importent enough for the main line to stop at it?
19:44:04  <Nat_aS> there is a tunnel under the station
19:44:49  <Nat_aS> small town outside of Wiedhus
19:46:12  <Nat_aS> it seems the station is only for grain, passinger trains bypass it entirely
19:46:14  <Eddi|zuHause> oh that one you mean. that's an industry station
19:46:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it serves the farm
19:46:38  <Nat_aS> oh that's not even a whole town
19:46:46  <Nat_aS> it's just a suburb of another town
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19:47:07  <Nat_aS> dispite being in it's own valley
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19:55:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but nothing of that answers the question :)
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20:14:15  <Nat_aS> how to expand your transrapid?
20:14:31  <Nat_aS> i don't know, you are a tighter network designer than I
20:14:52  <Nat_aS> but this is a nice map
20:15:16  <Nat_aS> hilly enough to be chalanging, but with flat areas so you can actualy build things.
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20:25:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't usually build this tight. but i wanted to have a small map so i could quickly play a full game
20:26:39  <Eddi|zuHause> but because of the sheer amount of passengers, i neglected the industry part
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20:28:47  <supermop> hi
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21:24:32  <Terkhen> good night
21:25:14  <Wolf01> 'night
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