Log for #openttd on 14th April 2012:
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01:32:54  <Endymion_Mallorn> Hey all.  I have a crazy question.  Especially in 1.1.1 and 1.1.5, is there any way to preview the length of a particular engine or car without purchasing it?
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04:29:03  <Endymion_Mallorn> Sorry for disconnecting earlier right after asking the question, my 'net went out.  Allow me to reiterate.  Is there any way for me to tell the length of a particular car or engine before purchase?
04:30:17  <Endymion_Mallorn> (I mean from within OpenTTD during gameplay, not by viewing the NewGRF outside the program.)
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04:35:01  <Pikka> no, Endymion_Mallorn
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04:41:23  <Endymion_Mallorn> Well, that sucks.  Any way you could whip up a patch/NewGRF to do that?
04:44:12  <Eddi|zuHause> NewGRFs can put in additional purchase information
04:44:32  <Eddi|zuHause> ask the developer of the GRF in question to do it
04:45:26  <Endymion_Mallorn> Well, it's not like it could be added to every train. What I want is just for the game (or the hack) to simply read the train length and report it along with the cost and so on.
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04:52:12  <andythenorth> Pikka: herr bird!
04:52:26  <Pikka> andrew!
04:52:57  <andythenorth> ciao
04:53:21  <Pikka> oui!
04:53:53  <Pikka> "to simply read the train length" does not compute, Endymion_Mallorn
04:54:14  <Endymion_Mallorn> I meant car or engine.
04:54:25  <Pikka> likewise
04:54:56  <Endymion_Mallorn> And how does it not compute?  Doesn't every car, either default or in a NewGRF, have a length variable set somewhere?
04:55:06  <Pikka> yes
04:55:16  <Pikka> but that is not necessarily the length you'll get when you build the vehicle
04:55:31  <Endymion_Mallorn> Huh?
04:55:40  <andythenorth> eh?
04:55:43  <Pikka> indeed
04:55:45  <andythenorth> should I read the logs?
04:56:05  <Pikka> the question is "Is there any way for me to tell the length of a particular car or engine before purchase?", andy
04:56:48  <Endymion_Mallorn> So what you're saying is that somehow, if I purchase the 4-4-0 Edwardian (Steam), there's a way for it to not have a length of 0.4?
04:56:50  <andythenorth> what's the case for it?
04:57:14  <andythenorth> you want to build trains of certain length?  [to fit stations?]
04:58:11  <Endymion_Mallorn> Partly that, and partly to get as close to 7.0 (which is the longest a train can move?)
04:59:12  <andythenorth>
04:59:14  <andythenorth> 1.4.4
05:00:32  <Pikka> Endymion_Mallorn: the "shorter vehicles" property will tell you that the 4-4-0 Edwardian in UKRS2 is 6/8 of a full vehicle length.
05:00:46  <Pikka> when you build it, it is 9/8 of a full vehicle length
05:01:11  <Pikka> thus reporting the "length variable set somewhere" is not very useful to you :)
05:01:46  <andythenorth> and also, the length can be 1/8 on all Tuesdays, but 3/8 on Thursdays if it's raining
05:02:02  <Pikka> yes
05:02:27  <Endymion_Mallorn> So the length rules for trains are based on Fizzbin.
05:02:32  * Endymion_Mallorn headdesks
05:02:56  <Pikka> Endymion_Mallorn: build the train you want to build
05:03:07  <Pikka> and when it ends up 6.8 tiles long instead of 7 tiles long, don't care.
05:03:11  <Pikka> problem solved.
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05:07:08  <Endymion_Mallorn> See, there's the rub - that whole 'don't care' bit.
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05:07:38  <Pikka> so you pick train locomotives based on the fact that they'll give you a nice round number, rather than power, speed, etc?
05:07:55  <Endymion_Mallorn> Honestly?  I usually pick by reliability.
05:08:14  <Endymion_Mallorn> I don't play multiplayer very often, so...
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05:08:48  <andythenorth> use the original train set
05:08:57  <Pikka> everything's the same length there
05:08:58  <andythenorth> all lengths are consistent
05:09:14  <andythenorth> you're stuck on an MP server with someone else's rules?
05:12:20  <Endymion_Mallorn> Nope.  Just playing my own game with a bunch of NewGRFs for variety.
05:13:55  <Pikka> !seen danmack
05:13:59  <Pikka> or something like that
05:14:08  <Pikka> how do you work these bots
05:14:51  <andythenorth> @seen danmack
05:14:51  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 12 hours, 35 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <DanMacK> WB Andy
05:14:58  <andythenorth> I haz seen him
05:15:26  <Pikka> buying vegetables
05:16:49  <andythenorth> Pikka: tried CHIPS?
05:17:00  <Pikka> not lately, andy
05:17:21  <andythenorth> nvm
05:17:57  <xiong> Endymion_Mallorn, it's not clear to me... but what do you mean by the statement that a length-7 train is the "longest a train can move"??
05:19:10  <xiong> Trains can be of great length. The critical relationship is between train and platform; trains loading at platforms shorter than they are, load very slowly and this is Bad.
05:20:01  <Pikka> andy, you should recruit Andrew350 for FISH too.
05:20:08  <xiong> The station-building GUI only has lengths up to 7 but you can build much longer stations in sections, limited only by station spread.
05:21:17  <xiong> In fact, I strongly urge long trains. The longer a train, the more cargo it carries per train. Many network costs are per-train -- for instance, breakdown disruptions.
05:22:02  <xiong> A given length of straight track, no matter how signaled, carries more cargo per unit time if long trains are employed.
05:23:12  <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah, but that requires changing a setting. The default maximum is 7, is it not?
05:23:17  <xiong> Note that this is made possible by multiheading. To test out my statement, simply combine trains in an existing network by pairs -- drop Train 2 onto the back of Train 1 with the same orders.
05:23:37  <xiong> I have no idea what the default is for most things; I've changed all that I find inconvenient.
05:23:56  <xiong> I can't even *see* the default game; the font is too small.
05:24:02  <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah.  I see.  So essntially, the reason it can't move more than 7 cars is a lack of HP?
05:24:11  <xiong> Oh no.
05:24:18  <Endymion_Mallorn> So you use OpenGFX+ BigGUI?
05:24:31  <xiong> You may well have engines that can haul far more than 6 tiles' worth of cars.
05:24:46  <xiong> No, I tried BigGUI, it was too big. I just changed the font.
05:25:06  <Endymion_Mallorn> ...Okay...
05:25:47  * Endymion_Mallorn is still basically a newb, so, try to be a little specific, what I would need to change to enable this, etc.
05:25:48  <xiong> The "standard" length of an engine or unpowered car is 1/2 tile; so 14 such is 7 tiles.
05:26:30  <xiong> Does the small font annoy you, too? Screens are bigger now and higher resolution; that kind of font made sense in the era of 640x480.
05:26:32  <Endymion_Mallorn> Things like 2cc, UKRS, NARS, and the like add in longer and shorter cars then?
05:27:07  <Endymion_Mallorn> Not at all, actually.  I'm usually running 640X480 16bit.  When needed I go up to 1024X768 32bit.
05:27:14  <xiong> Yes, various train sets have cars with various lengths. It was hairy for a time but now the game itself supports decimal train lengths, to one decimal place, clearly.
05:27:48  <xiong> I cannot imagine how to run more than a rudimentary layout at low res.
05:28:34  <xiong> I'm at 1280x960 and thinking how much I'd rather have... about four times as many pixels.
05:29:02  <Endymion_Mallorn> Good grief.
05:29:25  <xiong> I get into exactly the same thing that drove me, when running graphics editors on the Mac back when, to go to a second monitor. I put the main drawing on one monitor and all the menus and palettes on the other.
05:29:58  <xiong> I find it convenient to keep open a large number of windows -- vehicle, station, depot.
05:30:53  <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah, I see.  I don't have that issue.  Then again, I hate multi-display setups with a passion.  I like doing one thing at one time.
05:31:03  <xiong> Um, as for how to change the font, if you don't have a large screen, you may run into difficulty quickly. The larger font means larger windows, because they are proportioned... in some way... from the title bars and button texts.
05:31:15  <andythenorth> Pikka: I should.  WSF were on the 'todo' list
05:31:37  <xiong> Multiple displays are a pain but it was a solution. Today, you can buy flat panels of any arbitrary size, depending on wallet.
05:31:39  <Endymion_Mallorn> I don't change the font.  When my eyes wouldn't go back from double-vision for a while, I used BigGUI.
05:31:56  <Endymion_Mallorn> I use an old IBM T42 laptop.
05:32:16  <xiong> Sorry; about what should I be specific? I love to be specific.
05:33:22  <Endymion_Mallorn> What you already were, about the standard length and so on.
05:33:28  <xiong> Ah.
05:33:42  <Endymion_Mallorn> Though I also would like to know if you're running with different options for max vehicle length.
05:33:57  <xiong> Well, you'll eventually settle into your own groove; but I can recommend some things I consider pretty basic, if you like.
05:34:54  <xiong> There's only one setting for max train length; "very long" or not.
05:35:20  <Endymion_Mallorn> Settings-wise or NewGRF-wise?  Because I've found a couple of different ways to do NewGRFs that I find both fun and challenging.  Though I am sorely tempted to start trying FIRS and ECS Vectors again.
05:36:01  <xiong> Sorry no, I'm wrong. Now it's a number. I have it set at the maximum, 64 tiles. I don't run trains of that length, though.
05:36:29  <xiong> FIRS, I consider core. Without it, you may as well just play pax only.
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05:37:19  <Endymion_Mallorn> Sorry about that, I just *love* Wi-Fi.
05:37:39  <xiong> AV8, FISH, eGRVTS are all mandatory. I have Sailing Ships since I start in 1850.
05:38:24  <xiong> I'm fussy about stations so I have several station sets installed: ISRS, Canadian, Japanese, US, CHIPS, Czech...
05:38:55  <xiong> New Fences is good; if you have a lot of stuff loading, fiddle with the loading order.
05:39:20  <xiong> TTRS is great, so is (unrelated) TBRS.
05:39:43  <xiong> You want to pick out a train set you like. For me, that's NARS.
05:39:47  <Endymion_Mallorn> I'm not sure I've seen Sailing Ships, I run with 1.1.5 at the moment.  I'll go to 1.2 when it gets done by
05:40:15  <xiong> Well, Sailing Ships is a NewGRF; not related to game version.
05:40:43  <xiong> You can run 1.2.0-RC4; it's no more buggy than 1.1.5, IMO.
05:40:50  <Endymion_Mallorn> Let me check to see if it's there in my Online Content...
05:40:54  <xiong> Hardly bleeding edge.
05:41:17  <Endymion_Mallorn> Having checked, it's not there.
05:41:33  <xiong> Well, no point in Sailing Ships unless you're starting a lot earlier than 1950.
05:41:42  <xiong> Um, check again?
05:41:43  <Endymion_Mallorn> I like to start in '20.
05:41:52  <xiong> Sailing Ships has been around a long time.
05:42:02  * Endymion_Mallorn reloads the "Check Online Content" window again....
05:42:19  * Endymion_Mallorn types "Sail" in Tag/Name filter
05:42:25  <Endymion_Mallorn> Blank.
05:42:55  <xiong> It seems to be sailing_ships-0.5; try GRFcrawler.
05:43:17  <xiong> It may not be something I got from Bananas.
05:43:38  <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah, I tend to only do the ones I can just click on in-game.
05:43:42  <xiong> There are far, far more NewGRFs out there than are on Bananas.
05:44:21  <xiong> Installing outgame is not hard. Basically, you just download and drop it in. You don't usually even need to untarball.
05:44:40  <Endymion_Mallorn> Yes, but it still requires restarting the game.
05:45:26  <xiong> Um, no, sorry, I don't think so. Not restarting the game program, openttd. Obviously, changing NewGRF settings at all during game play is a highly questionable activity.
05:46:32  <xiong> It can be done, mind you. Lots of people do it, nobody will endorse it.
05:47:08  <Endymion_Mallorn> ... It's in BaNaNaS, but doesn't show up in the Online Content service.
05:47:43  <Endymion_Mallorn> Really? Wow.  (Understand, typically when I say restart the game, I mean actually close the process)
05:49:03  <xiong> Normally, NewGRFs installed ingame... are installed ingame, while the program is running.
05:49:12  <xiong> So this is not an issue.
05:49:50  <xiong> I don't shuffle this stuff around a lot so don't take my word for any particular thing. I've stabilized.
05:50:03  <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah.
05:50:48  <xiong> As for settings: I think it's important to prohibit town from growing on its own. Town growth is cute at first but I'm uninterested. It's cheap enough to build my own "city street" roads and I retain control.
05:51:31  <xiong> I'm not sure which are default now and which not so I'm reluctant to blather on with a whole list.
05:52:06  <Endymion_Mallorn> See, I like letting the town grow - it is interesting to me.
05:52:12  <xiong> Signals, build path signals by default; cycle only through path signals.
05:52:48  <andythenorth> try searching 'ships' it will produce 'Sailing Ships' on bananas
05:52:52  <xiong> All the talk about block signals I consider a form of machismo. At one time, there were no path signals so players learned to do hard things with difficult tools.
05:53:16  <xiong> I have not yet found anything I want to do, that I can do with block signals and not with path signals.
05:53:20  <Endymion_Mallorn> On Bananas, yeah, andy.  But not from within OpenTTD.
05:53:56  <Endymion_Mallorn> Personally, I've never really understood either.  I just stick with one-ways and two tracks at a time with two trains running on 'em.
05:53:57  <xiong> Autorenew: Turn it on, turn it to -12, and lower the money threshold.
05:54:18  <xiong> Path signals become important in interlocking areas.
05:54:59  <xiong> Maint intervals in percents. I find 15-20 a good idea.
05:55:27  <Endymion_Mallorn> Alright.
05:55:37  <xiong> If you want to get mileage out of a train set, then Freight Multiplier to at least 5x.
05:56:13  <xiong> Then the early, weak engines really are weak and you will need to multihead in order to get any kind of throughput. Later, more powerful engines really will pull more cars.
05:56:46  <xiong> Without the freight multiplier, even a crummy engine will pull a great many heavily loaded trains.
05:57:21  <xiong> New orders are 'non-stop' by default. I don't know why you would want random stopping.
05:57:34  <Endymion_Mallorn> Me either.
05:58:17  <xiong> This setting is irritating. Every order in every order list is prefixed by non-stop. If this is the default, then the *other* alternative should be noted, if so ordered.
05:59:11  <xiong> Um, if you install the latest AV8 then you are told to set plane speed factor to 1/1; the speeds of aircraft in the set have all been properly adjusted for this.
06:00:01  <xiong> Stations: Cargo handling: I think I'm using the defaults here but I'm not sure. Improved loading and load gradually are good.
06:00:44  <xiong> Key are Allow building adjacent and allow building nonadjacent.
06:01:34  <xiong> I've set station spread pretty high; it doesn't slow the game as much as feared. But it leads to reductionist game play: One Big Station.
06:02:18  <xiong> Now, I'm playing with a spread of 16, which is much more challenging; and stations with a max platform length of 12. That's not a distinct setting, just a player decision.
06:03:04  <xiong> Smaller than that and it's hard to run enough trains to carry away cargo available.
06:03:44  <xiong> I mean, if your spread is 8, then no matter how you do it, your biggest station is 8x8. And that allows nothing for feeders.
06:05:46  <xiong> Most of the difficulty settings are a matter of taste; I like to play with a max loan of 0K, which imposes a little discipline early. But for some reason, train reversing is here, not in Advanced.
06:06:16  <xiong> I suggest you do not want trains reversing at stations. I can see some situations where this might be an advantage... but mostly, not.
06:06:40  <xiong> I have never turned disasters on. Life is tough enough.
06:07:24  <xiong> So, Endymion_Mallorn, that's about the key settings, IMO.
06:09:38  <Endymion_Mallorn> Alright.
06:09:55  <Endymion_Mallorn> And you know what, I wasn't even aware of a disaster setting!
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06:12:55  <Endymion_Mallorn> But I gotta run.  Pleasure talking to you - I'll be back.
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06:15:54  <xiong> A pleasure; anytime.
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06:39:57  <Alberth> moin
06:40:16  <Pikka> hello Alberth
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06:47:07  <Someus> I need good tutorial for building more than one train
06:48:31  <Someus> Should I update to 1.2.0?
06:49:03  <Someus> That traffic light thing
06:50:21  <Someus> OK i found in the wiki
06:54:21  <Alberth> signals :)
06:54:42  <andythenorth> smoke!
06:54:47  * andythenorth updates his patch
06:55:28  <Alberth>
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07:01:16  <Someus> Should I update to 1.2.0?
07:01:42  <andythenorth> hmm
07:01:58  <andythenorth> think my smoke patch pays no attention to game's smoke setting
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07:09:28  * andythenorth has no idea what Chance16 does, but seems to work
07:13:36  <Terkhen> good morning
07:14:07  <andythenorth> o/
07:14:43  <Pikka> andy is the new patchman
07:15:15  <peter1138> pikka is the new pikka
07:15:37  <andythenorth> pikka is also the old pikka
07:15:39  <andythenorth> how strange
07:15:46  <andythenorth> peter1138: smoke!
07:15:52  <peter1138> don't mind if i do
07:15:55  * peter1138 lights one up
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07:18:22  <andythenorth> so how do I prevent terraforming under industry tiles?
07:18:31  <andythenorth> it causes a quite nasty bug
07:18:31  <andythenorth>
07:18:53  <andythenorth> I can't find anything in the spec about it
07:19:00  <Pikka> it's there, andy
07:19:43  <andythenorth> where?
07:19:43  <andythenorth> :P
07:20:13  <Pikka> hang on.. :P
07:20:29  <Pikka> cb 14F
07:20:48  <Pikka>
07:21:27  <andythenorth> ah
07:21:31  <andythenorth> 'autoslope'
07:21:32  <andythenorth>
07:21:52  <andythenorth> but surely
07:21:53  <andythenorth> 		autoslope:    return CB_RESULT_NO_AUTOSLOPE;
07:21:54  <Pikka> and that "bug" I'm guessing is because cb 14E is disabling drawing the default foundations?
07:22:07  <andythenorth> yes foundations are turned off
07:22:11  <Pikka> well
07:22:16  <andythenorth> this was all solved in the old codebase
07:22:21  <Pikka> :)
07:22:22  <andythenorth> but now there is a new codebase
07:22:42  <Pikka> NML, it's all welsh to me
07:23:13  * andythenorth wonders if NML is broken
07:23:14  <andythenorth> let's see
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07:25:53  <andythenorth> hmm
07:26:02  <andythenorth>     'CB_RESULT_NO_AUTOSLOPE'                : 0x01,  # callback 0x3C
07:26:06  <andythenorth> looks correct
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07:27:11  <andythenorth> hmm
07:27:13  <andythenorth> smells fishy
07:27:14  <andythenorth>     'autoslope'           : {'type': 'cb', 'num': 0x3B, 'flag_bit': 6},
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07:28:20  * andythenorth should stop blaming FIRS code for bugs in nml
07:30:32  <Alberth> :)
07:31:39  <andythenorth> fixed
07:32:06  <andythenorth> that means all grfs compiled with previous nml are bugged :P
07:32:12  <andythenorth> what larks :)
07:34:17  <Alberth> only ones that use the cb :)
07:34:24  <andythenorth> well yes
07:34:27  <andythenorth> which is probably FIRS
07:34:30  <andythenorth> and no others
07:35:50  <peter1138> hmm, i might try migrating my vservers to lxc
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08:39:51  <andythenorth> MB would like freely customisable effect vehicles
08:39:57  <andythenorth> which seems fair
08:40:08  * andythenorth can't code that :|
08:43:58  <peter1138> DO IT
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08:46:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: an effect vehicle pool, a newgrf feature, a property for an effect vehicle ID, a callback for effect vehicle trigger (e.g. based on animation state), and a callback returning a vehicle ID (and x/y/z offset in register)
08:47:06  <Eddi|zuHause> (where "x" is in travel direction, "y" is orthogonal to travel direction)
08:47:11  <peter1138> effect vehicle pool? why?
08:47:17  <andythenorth> and then a full set of varaction 2 vars
08:47:19  <andythenorth> and optional cbs
08:47:30  <andythenorth> and performance concerns
08:47:41  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: for newgrf effect vehicles?
08:47:47  <andythenorth> and having to provide all smoke myself, rather than have the game do it :P
08:47:59  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i meant an "effect engine pool"
08:48:08  <peter1138> oh right, for the engines, not the vehicles
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09:07:14  <Alberth> moin Zuu
09:07:53  <Zuu> Hello Alberth
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09:10:19  <Rubidium> is definitely a realistic track layout ;)
09:10:49  <peter1138> oh my god those graphics are so blocky and ugly!
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09:11:49  <Pikka> ez
09:12:38  <Pikka> I wonder how much work it would be to redraw every single sprite in UKRS2 at 4x the size
09:13:03  <peter1138> load -> scale -> 400% -> save
09:13:07  <peter1138> ;)
09:13:10  <Pikka> yesbut
09:13:18  <Pikka> that would not make it sufficiently fancy
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09:13:42  <Pikka> and yes, I've already tried hx and all the algorithms, they don't produce anything worthwhile.
09:14:04  <NGC3982> <@peter1138> oh my god those graphics are so blocky and ugly!
09:14:08  <NGC3982> no they are not :,(
09:14:18  <peter1138> Pikka, indeed, which is exactly the reason that we didn't use it ingame either :)
09:14:24  <peter1138> NGC3982, i was joking :)
09:14:28  <NGC3982> peter1138: ;)
09:14:47  * NGC3982 highly respects the ottd game community look on graphics.
09:14:50  <peter1138> some of the old 32bpp-ez crowd don't like it though
09:14:57  * NGC3982 also cant spell.
09:15:37  <peter1138>
09:15:42  <Rubidium> proves is a realistic track layout ;)
09:15:42  <peter1138> that was probably the best effort
09:15:53  <peter1138> but... it doesn't look like ttd anymore
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09:16:08  <NGC3982> uhm
09:16:10  <NGC3982> true
09:16:12  <NGC3982> i dont like that
09:16:19  <peter1138> Rubidium, only if it's in a station ;)
09:16:49  <peter1138> hmm, junctions in stations...
09:17:04  <Rubidium> signals in stations!
09:17:59  <V453000> signals everywhere!
09:18:07  <Pikka> hmm
09:18:11  <Eddi|zuHause> multiple trains stopping on one platform, alternating with one long train stopping at the same platform!
09:18:38  <Pikka> signals on signals
09:18:48  <Eddi|zuHause> signals on tile borders
09:18:56  <Pikka> signals on custom bridgeheads hur hur
09:19:02  <V453000> underwater signals?
09:19:06  <peter1138> signals on aircraft
09:19:10  <Pikka> mixed signals
09:19:11  <Rubidium> dwarf signals
09:19:24  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, train splitting at platforms
09:19:33  <Pikka> splitting distant signals!
09:19:37  <Eddi|zuHause> trains driving backwards
09:19:38  <Pikka> the best kind of signal
09:19:59  <Rubidium> ETCS!
09:20:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: is that something like spitting distance?
09:20:13  <peter1138> model railway mode:
09:20:27  <peter1138> if two trains collide at low speed, they become joined together
09:20:34  <peter1138> and you have to lift them off the track to separate them
09:20:39  <Eddi|zuHause> double track on one tile!
09:21:03  <peter1138> contra-fine scale
09:21:08  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: you can uncouple models without picking them up
09:21:21  <peter1138> yes but it's fiddly
09:23:50  <peter1138> drwxr-xr-x 9 mcc mcc 37933056 Apr 14 10:27 backups
09:23:53  <peter1138> that's quite scary
09:24:38  <Alberth> quite :)
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09:33:05  <Wolf01> hello
09:35:00  <__ln__> ave lupus
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09:52:18  <andythenorth> he's back
09:52:24  <Pikka> who he?
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09:52:28  <V453000> run away!
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09:52:31  <drac_boy> hi
09:52:39  <Pikka> andy, when you say "MB wants", you meant to say "everyone wants"
09:56:42  <andythenorth> if the class of 'everyone' does not include andythenorth
09:56:51  <andythenorth> it's a bit like roadtypes :P
09:57:01  <andythenorth> we could do them correct in theory
09:57:08  <andythenorth> or we could actually...have them in the game :P
09:57:27  <andythenorth> Pikka: do you have inventive new smoke ideas? :o
09:57:35  <Pikka> yes
09:57:41  <Pikka> we could bodge them into the game
09:57:43  <Pikka> like trams
09:57:49  <Pikka> and then when the time comes to do them properly, we can't
09:57:52  <Pikka> because the bodge is in the way
09:58:10  <Pikka> and isn't allowed to be undone
09:58:47  <planetmaker> invent 1/8 articulated vehicles which has crazy offsets and looks like smoke
09:59:04  <Pikka> invent articulated ships, planetmaker
09:59:18  <drac_boy> hmm why articulated?
09:59:46  <drac_boy> only thing I can think of that would need to would be tug+barge combo but how many of these would players really know of :)
09:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause> we need 0lu articulated parts
10:00:40  <planetmaker> with non-zero bounding boxes
10:00:52  <peter1138> articulated smoke particles?
10:01:12  <planetmaker> of course!
10:01:32  <Eddi|zuHause> make the bounding box size separate property from vehicle length
10:01:32  <peter1138> Pikka, what's the plan with trams then
10:01:43  <Pikka> there isn't one, peter
10:01:45  <Pikka> it's too hard
10:01:50  <peter1138> ikr
10:02:34  <Pikka> my preferred option would be to convert all tram tracks to road
10:02:41  <Pikka> but that's not good enough apparently
10:03:06  <andythenorth> tis too
10:03:33  <andythenorth> hmm
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10:03:45  <andythenorth> also newgrf effect vehicles = layered sprites
10:03:56  <Pikka> also andy seems to think that I am going to code it, when I wouldn't know where to begin ;)
10:04:11  <Pikka> and have plenty of other projects which I do know how to do to be getting on with
10:04:18  <andythenorth> Pikka: you have stolen my words
10:04:23  <andythenorth> in both lines
10:04:34  <Pikka> well I think this is why peter1138 needs to do it
10:04:38  <andythenorth> I have © on "I would do it, but I don't know how and I'm busy"
10:04:45  <andythenorth> peter1138 should do it
10:04:59  <Pikka> see if you can get stevenh back to help
10:04:59  <andythenorth> just to show off
10:05:05  <Pikka> since trams are all his fault in the first place
10:06:01  <drac_boy> heh
10:07:10  <andythenorth> effect vehicles would be an easy way to do load sprites :P
10:07:23  <andythenorth> and other things
10:07:26  <andythenorth> meh
10:10:09  <andythenorth> why are newgrf effect vehicles needed?
10:10:32  <andythenorth> why not just make vehicle varaction 2 with child sprites instead of a single sprite
10:10:53  <planetmaker> composing wagons from wagon rear, cargo and wagon front would certainly be nice. And probably slow
10:10:59  <planetmaker> but yes
10:11:05  <planetmaker> childsprites might be easier
10:11:10  <planetmaker> and established
10:14:19  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: smoke as childsprite would turn when the vehicle turns
10:14:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: once emitted, the effect vehicle stays at the same place
10:15:55  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: no, the newgrf author would write code to handle that
10:16:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, he can't
10:17:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you would have to remember the last positions, and you don't have enough storage for that
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10:17:01  <andythenorth> why?
10:17:07  <andythenorth> hmm
10:17:12  <andythenorth> good point
10:17:22  <andythenorth> but vehicles need storage anyway
10:17:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but specialized game storage, not universal newgrf storage
10:19:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. if you want to use child sprites, the storage must be allocated for every vehicle, even if they don't use it
10:19:34  <Eddi|zuHause> while the storage for effect vehicles is only used when you actually have effect vehicles
10:19:40  <andythenorth> but I can use an effect vehicle as a child sprite
10:19:57  <andythenorth> [fake]
10:20:03  <andythenorth> same net result
10:20:05  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you can't
10:20:18  <andythenorth> why?
10:20:21  <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot access the effect vehicle from the emitting vehicle
10:20:32  <Eddi|zuHause> so you cannot move it parallel to the vehicle
10:20:39  <andythenorth> I don't need to
10:20:45  <andythenorth> emit on every frame
10:20:51  <andythenorth> 1 frame cycke time
10:20:57  <andythenorth> cycle /s
10:21:18  <andythenorth> position 0,0,0 or whatever
10:21:22  <Eddi|zuHause> and: effect vehicle creation may be skipped as the game pleases
10:21:46  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. when the vehicle pool is full
10:22:10  <andythenorth> k so a spec might mention that
10:22:20  <Eddi|zuHause> effect vehicles and child sprites are entirely different things. don't mix the two
10:22:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it makes no sense
10:23:19  <andythenorth> technically yes
10:23:31  <andythenorth> but they will be (ab)used
10:23:46  <andythenorth> for unexpected purposes
10:26:11  * andythenorth ponders flags on ships as effect vehicles
10:26:18  <andythenorth> also wake sprites
10:26:51  <andythenorth> vehicles are going to need a full bounding box specified
10:27:05  <andythenorth> is that a newgrf version bump?
10:30:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: flags, cargo -> child sprites
10:30:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sparks, smoke -> effect vehicles
10:30:44  <andythenorth> hmm....log trucks emit steam when braking
10:31:34  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: +1, but we don't have child sprites, probably won't any time soon
10:31:47  <andythenorth> so ev will be used insteas
10:31:54  <andythenorth> instead /s
10:31:55  <drac_boy> andythenorth probably from burning out their brakes... or its the water tank emptying out onto the tires as they were meant to :p
10:31:56  <Eddi|zuHause> we don't have (newgrf) effect vehicles either...
10:32:03  * oskari89 thinks that when some trucks and buses are running on sandy/gravel roads, they should lift some dust into air :)
10:32:12  <andythenorth> +1
10:32:32  <oskari89> When roadtype is sand.
10:32:37  <andythenorth> newgrf particle emitters?
10:32:47  <oskari89> Sth like that :P
10:32:50  <drac_boy> oskari89 problem is that I don't know how you would code that..especially with different vehicle weight and lengths
10:33:13  <oskari89> Vehicles rearmost point automatically?
10:33:18  <drac_boy> plus at 40km/h it probably shouldn't be making much of any dust compared to someting at 70+km/h
10:33:21  <andythenorth> the vehicle handles it
10:33:27  <andythenorth> it's nfo
10:33:34  <oskari89> Ok.
10:33:54  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: child sprites for vehicles are problematic, because currently the sprite of the vehicle is cached in the vehicle struct, which allows only one (or a constant number) of sprites
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10:34:09  <planetmaker> oskari89: what's the rearmost vehicle point? :-)
10:34:24  <drac_boy> planetmaker my question exactly :p
10:34:57  <oskari89> Can it be digged from sprite alignment data? :)
10:35:02  <planetmaker> do you take the bounding box? Or the last non-transparent vehicle? At which y and z-offset?
10:35:21  <oskari89> ....
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10:35:47  <oskari89> I understand.
10:36:37  <planetmaker> "last non-transparent pixel" I meant. But yes :-)
10:37:00  <planetmaker> Of course, if it's define, a newgrf author can work with it. After all it need not be used. But well :-)
10:37:17  <planetmaker> but there we are again at andy's smoke offsets :-P
10:37:56  <andythenorth> which incidentally, if done right, don't block a future newgrf effect vehicle spec
10:38:03  <andythenorth> at least if the spec is sane :)
10:38:46  <andythenorth> the offsets go in a register, along with an effect type
10:38:56  <andythenorth> in future, an effect vehicle ID goes in a register
10:42:16  <NGC3982> i wonder
10:42:23  <NGC3982> i so want openttd on my android phone :(
10:42:54  <drac_boy> run an emulator for now?
10:43:00  <drac_boy> sorry if thats not a very good answer :)
10:43:01  <NGC3982> oh, that exists?
10:43:02  <NGC3982> :D
10:47:43  <NGC3982> drac_boy: that is a fantastic answer.
10:47:48  * NGC3982 googles for the life of his.
10:47:49  <andythenorth> steam ships steam ships steam ships
10:47:50  <andythenorth>
10:47:52  <NGC3982> -his + him
10:48:07  <NGC3982> andythenorth: cute.
10:48:12  <drac_boy> NGC3982 you're a strange would had been obvious to anyone else..if its not on the platform ..emulate the other platform then :p
10:49:03  <NGC3982> drac_boy: well, since ive only had a decent android phone for about 12 hours, im quite new in the community.
10:52:42  <NGC3982>
10:52:49  <NGC3982> what, its already on there?
10:53:08  <NGC3982> first comment: "Doesn't work with Galaxy S II."
10:53:09  <NGC3982> :E
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10:58:38  <Terkhen> to my knowledge no one bothered to create an android port and try to get it into trunk, therefore all android ports are unofficial
10:59:09  <NGC3982> well, i can see that.
10:59:48  * NGC3982 sticks to pc.
10:59:57  * NGC3982 tries to emulate tropico 2 instead.
11:00:37  <zooks> I made this heightmap using some random fractals and other algorithms, tell me what do you guys think:
11:01:26  <drac_boy> hm NGC3982 I just had to look it up now and Tropico seem interesting from the screenshots so far
11:01:33  <drac_boy> zooks doesn't look too bad
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11:02:19  <zooks> It needs rivers though
11:05:47  <drac_boy> think I already have enough retail games to not want to bother with that one yet tho
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11:19:22  <planetmaker> is blathijs around for a chat concerning build or clean targets?
11:19:58  * drac_boy is thinking a bit too much about rivers now for some reason :-s
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11:20:03  * drac_boy looks at zooks
11:20:42  <zooks> heh
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11:22:23  <drac_boy> hi Rhamphoryncus
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11:23:15  <Rhamphoryncus> ahoy drac_boy
11:24:06  <drac_boy> so I don't think you had told me before, what kind of train grf would you had thought of if you started one?
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11:25:29  <Rhamphoryncus> One focused on gameplay.  Large sweeps on the stats to give them clear specialities
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11:25:59  <Rhamphoryncus> With regular upgrades available
11:26:36  <Rhamphoryncus> With a transition to some stupid maglev ideas I have :)
11:26:38  <drac_boy> hmm not too sure I can follow but I guess I'll wait for you to eventually actually do it :)
11:26:53  <Rhamphoryncus> Don't hold your breath ;)
11:26:57  <drac_boy> heh :p
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11:27:45  <Rhamphoryncus> Most of the train sets have only a handful of "best" engines.  The rest fill real life niches that don't apply to openttd
11:28:31  <drac_boy> what kind of niches do you mean btw?
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11:29:51  <Rhamphoryncus> Well there's hilly vs flat terrain
11:30:19  <drac_boy> if you meant by low speed coupled with high tractive. I like to use these actually
11:30:37  <Rhamphoryncus> Which can be done by having a *slightly* lower top speed with twice the TE
11:30:49  <drac_boy> 'slightly' as in 60km/h? :)
11:30:55  <Rhamphoryncus> 10 km/h
11:31:07  <Rhamphoryncus> The real life version is only to satisfy accountants :P
11:31:42  <drac_boy> 10km/h is too slow for the game heh
11:31:55  <Rhamphoryncus> I mean 10 km/h slower than the flat engine
11:32:09  <drac_boy> does that still make it 60km/h tho?
11:32:39  <Rhamphoryncus> Earliest might be 60 km/h.  There will be regular upgrades to both flat and hilly engines
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11:33:39  <drac_boy> ok I probably wouldn't mind it seeing that it wouldn't waste a lot of its time trying to not fly off the curve with a short train :)
11:34:00  <Rhamphoryncus> hmm?
11:34:03  <zxbiohazardzx> ohi ohi
11:34:17  <drac_boy> hi zxbiohazardzx I was wondering when I'll ever see you again :P
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11:35:50  <zxbiohazardzx> haha
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11:36:22  <zxbiohazardzx> meh i usually forget to pop in the OTTD IRC while bouncing around in the TrinityCore (WOW-emulation) ones
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11:37:45  <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx :-p
11:39:19  <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus what I think about at times is this kind of curves which is not meant to be done at any sort of high speeds :p
11:39:26  <drac_boy> just so you get the idea :)
11:39:54  <Rhamphoryncus> heh
11:40:10  <Rhamphoryncus> Which doesn't exist in openttd.  You just go straight up the hill
11:40:31  <drac_boy> actually it does, you not seen the screenshots where they really do have S curves .. sometimes even with 90 degree corners
11:41:47  <drac_boy> but anyway zxbiohazardzx how're you?
11:43:06  <Rhamphoryncus> You mean the ones with the fake curve sprite?
11:44:10  <zxbiohazardzx> im fine
11:44:15  <zxbiohazardzx> just read i missed out on some IRC fun :(
11:45:04  <zxbiohazardzx> @drac_boy those spiral-curves form no problem at all. as long as the banking is sufficient, i recon you could go through @ 50-80 kmph
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11:46:51  <Rhamphoryncus> What happens if you stop with such banking?
11:46:57  <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx yeah
11:47:13  <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus nothing, except that any diner cars would have a very tiny slant in the glasses set on table
11:47:29  <Rhamphoryncus> Ah, not so much banking then
11:47:33  <drac_boy> but then I have never ever heard of diner waiters actually filling cups all the way for obvious reason
11:47:56  <Rhamphoryncus> How much curve do you need for 200 km/h? XD
11:48:59  <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus way too much more than what ottd has
11:49:18  <Rhamphoryncus> huh?  Openttd doesn't have banking
11:49:31  <zxbiohazardzx> @Rhamphoryncus depends on the radius
11:49:41  <Rhamphoryncus> zxbiohazardzx: see pic
11:49:53  <zxbiohazardzx> but 200 kmph would mean roughly 85 deg
11:49:59  <zxbiohazardzx> and then you still pull insane G's
11:50:05  <zxbiohazardzx> so no go on designing it
11:50:05  <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus point is the normal 45 degree curves are relastically not meant for such speed ... you need something a lot more gentler than that
11:50:10  <zxbiohazardzx> @ 200 kmph you want a straight line
11:50:14  <zxbiohazardzx> or as straight as you can
11:50:17  <drac_boy> but it figures
11:50:22  <zxbiohazardzx> with R > 10km
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11:50:42  <Someus> Hi
11:50:46  <planetmaker> hi
11:50:48  <Someus> I have cloned trains
11:50:49  <zxbiohazardzx> hi
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11:50:51  <drac_boy> hi someus
11:50:54  <zxbiohazardzx> cool?
11:51:03  <zxbiohazardzx> i have shared-order cloned trains
11:51:04  <Someus> And they cloned trains do the same orders
11:51:11  <Someus> How can i give them seperate orders?
11:51:18  * Rhamphoryncus gene splices trains
11:51:19  <zxbiohazardzx> shared orders or actually different
11:51:22  <planetmaker> just give it separate orders?
11:51:26  <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus heh
11:51:26  <Someus> Yes
11:51:32  <zxbiohazardzx> Someus if you clone it, you can just remove existing orders and add new ones
11:51:34  <Someus> I can`t figure
11:51:37  <planetmaker> yeah, well. Just give them separate orders
11:51:37  <Rhamphoryncus> If they're shared click on the bottom order line that says "shared orders" then click unshare
11:51:57  <Someus> When i give seperate orders, it applies also for second train
11:51:59  <zxbiohazardzx> if you intentionally want to keep them the same then control+clone or make it share orders with the other train. to stop sharing, click stop sharing :P
11:52:00  <planetmaker> or did you never change the orders of an existing train before?
11:52:01  <Someus> :)
11:52:02  <zxbiohazardzx> yeah they are shared
11:52:04  <Rhamphoryncus> They're shared then
11:52:10  <zxbiohazardzx> so click on "end of shared orders"
11:52:11  <Someus> How can i unshare?
11:52:17  <zxbiohazardzx> and click on -> "stop sharing"
11:52:18  <planetmaker> Someus: don't clone, but copy the train (ctrl+click vs. click)
11:52:34  <Someus> hmm
11:52:43  <Someus> Where is that "end of shared orders"?
11:52:51  <zxbiohazardzx> on the end of the order list
11:53:02  <zxbiohazardzx> it should say either -- End of Orders
11:53:07  <zxbiohazardzx> or -- End of Shared Orders
11:53:15  <zxbiohazardzx> 1 destination A
11:53:16  <Someus> Oooo
11:53:19  <zxbiohazardzx> 2 destination B
11:53:19  <Someus> YEs yes
11:53:23  <zxbiohazardzx> 3 Destination C
11:53:25  <Someus> Ok
11:53:27  <zxbiohazardzx> -- End of <>
11:53:36  <Someus> Yes i user CTRL + Click
11:53:40  <Someus> i used
11:53:40  <zxbiohazardzx> does it say end of shared ?
11:53:45  <Someus> Yes
11:53:54  <zxbiohazardzx> for simply copying but not sharing orders use normal cick
11:54:02  <Someus> oh
11:54:04  <zxbiohazardzx> to stop sharing, click that end of shared orders and stop sharing
11:54:14  <Someus> But will it copy orders as well?
11:54:46  <zxbiohazardzx> if you simply copy then it will copy orders
11:54:47  <Someus> I remember when i played this game a long ago :)
11:54:56  <zxbiohazardzx> but if you click it then then you will see they do not share orders
11:54:58  <zxbiohazardzx> they just copied it
11:55:02  <Someus> I was amazed :)
11:55:29  <Someus> Ok nice
11:56:12  <Someus> I like old graphics tough
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11:56:22  <Someus> They have more contrast
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11:57:59  <zxbiohazardzx> i prefer some of the new graphics :P
11:58:12  <drac_boy> Someus well you more or less still could get that...just put the original grf files into the 'data' folder
11:58:27  <Someus> yeah i did it already
11:58:54  <Someus> Any suggestions for new player?
11:59:04  <Someus> Tips & Tricks?
11:59:27  <drac_boy> I dunno, I'm sorta the anti-massnetworks type so maybe you might want someone else
11:59:54  <Someus> What are your tactics?
12:00:08  <Someus> trains, cars, plains, ships?
12:00:14  <zxbiohazardzx> trains
12:00:16  <zxbiohazardzx> always
12:00:19  <drac_boy> individual lines .. mixed cargos a lot of the times on trains .. etc
12:00:19  <zxbiohazardzx> find coal and link it
12:00:25  <zxbiohazardzx> try to max out a coal line
12:00:34  <zxbiohazardzx> after that its your play as income is so big you dont have to worry :P
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12:00:41  <planetmaker> as long-distance as you ca afford
12:00:45  <zxbiohazardzx> but low-money starts == haul coal over the map
12:00:46  <Someus> So coal is money maker?
12:00:54  <zxbiohazardzx> as bigga distance as you can without going bankrupt
12:00:55  <planetmaker> it's a viable strategy
12:01:04  <Someus> What about oil?
12:01:04  <zxbiohazardzx> yes, 50k in 1 haul isnt uncommon :P
12:01:06  * drac_boy rarely starts with coal :)
12:01:12  <zxbiohazardzx> tropical maps you go for water/oil
12:01:21  <Someus> Actually i alwais start with passengers :):)
12:01:26  <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy only supercitys & passengers beat it
12:01:36  <zxbiohazardzx> but only if you can link up 2 nicely sized towns
12:01:45  <zxbiohazardzx> and if your not playing with reduced pax-payment :P
12:02:13  <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx actually I do run between small towns first on some maps... with two trains of 1-3 cars each
12:02:36  <Someus> How to get better rating?
12:02:48  <drac_boy> Someus don't let cargo sit for long time
12:02:50  <zxbiohazardzx> more trains waitint on the station
12:03:00  <zxbiohazardzx> simply have a train load all the time works for cargo's
12:03:09  <zxbiohazardzx> for pax just make alot of connections
12:03:15  <Someus> drac_boy what is better - full load or just avaible?
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12:04:00  <drac_boy> someus..depends on train so I dunno :)
12:04:03  <zxbiohazardzx> depends again
12:04:11  <Someus> Yeah it depends
12:04:11  <zxbiohazardzx> for cargo --> full load it
12:04:18  <zxbiohazardzx> for pax --> just go
12:04:19  <Someus> I can`t balance this thing very well
12:04:35  <Someus> what is pax? passengers?
12:04:39  <zxbiohazardzx> Someus for better tips, join a multiplayer game and ask help there
12:04:43  <zxbiohazardzx> pax = passengers & mail imo
12:04:49  <zxbiohazardzx> the passenger/city generated stuff :P
12:04:54  <drac_boy> nope..I consider mail a freight cargo :p
12:04:54  <Someus> Is it interesting to play multi?
12:04:55  <planetmaker> pax = passengers
12:04:57  <zxbiohazardzx> cargo is everything from industries
12:04:58  *** Devroush [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:05:06  <planetmaker> and not mail
12:05:09  <zxbiohazardzx> Someus yeah its not bad to learn
12:05:21  <Someus> Are you playing now?
12:05:30  <zxbiohazardzx> planetmaker true, but i prefer to see mail as part of my passenger networks, easier to keep track of stuff
12:05:40  <zxbiohazardzx> im not Someus, but i could join in one :P
12:05:48  * drac_boy thinks zxbiohazardzx has never heard of mail trains then :)
12:05:51  <zxbiohazardzx> lemmy see what ottd verison i have
12:05:56  <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: that's a different thing. But pax is a commonly used abbreviation for passengers
12:06:03  <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy ow i do have mail trains, and seperate terminals for them
12:06:04  <drac_boy> especially Fast Mail or Royal Mail etc (name always varies in different areas)
12:06:06  <planetmaker> And it has not what-so-ever the meaning to also include mail
12:06:07  <zxbiohazardzx> i just put them on same network
12:06:16  <zxbiohazardzx> yeah true planet :)
12:06:26  <zxbiohazardzx> blegh
12:06:30  <zxbiohazardzx>
12:06:34  <drac_boy> anyway afk for a while
12:06:40  *** drac_boy [] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!]
12:07:03  <Someus> Which is better AI for beginner?
12:07:06  <zxbiohazardzx> Machiavelli are those new? and did Aokromes check them out yet or should i go fix them?
12:07:17  <planetmaker> Someus: that depends on the definition of 'good'
12:07:37  <Someus> I experienced a very smart AI, whenever i built a way from city to city, AI immediately used this way :D
12:07:54  <zxbiohazardzx> eehm last 2 lines should have been in the other IRC my bad
12:07:57  <Someus> Like parasite
12:07:57  <zxbiohazardzx> Someus: none :P
12:08:16  <zxbiohazardzx> if you dont want AI to play against then soloplay is still good to see what you can/cant do etc
12:08:33  <zxbiohazardzx> AI can be used to make the game more challenging
12:08:40  <Someus> I want AI
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12:08:58  <zxbiohazardzx> then just check the forums, most AI's have a topic explaining what they do etc
12:09:15  <zxbiohazardzx> some only build busses, others do certain lines only, forums offer some extra details on that
12:09:16  <Someus> I downloaded from openttd launcher
12:09:19  *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:d917:d87c:c050:1296] has joined #openttd
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12:09:34  <zxbiohazardzx> yeah but most of those also have a topic on the forums with extra info
12:09:36  <Someus> Also i downloaded all newGRF :)
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12:09:55  <Someus> Haven`t activated them yet
12:10:01  <zxbiohazardzx> jeej for compatibility issues then
12:10:02  <zxbiohazardzx> :P
12:10:14  <Someus> I hope to see something intereting
12:10:16  <zxbiohazardzx> in b4 errors of multiple conflicting sets
12:10:31  <Someus> Shouldn`t i use them
12:10:31  <Someus> ?
12:10:44  <planetmaker> Someus: you should not use all newgrfs. They will conflict
12:11:01  <planetmaker> Choose some small selection which work well together
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12:11:09  <planetmaker> try them possibly one by one
12:11:14  <Someus> Yeah sure
12:11:29  <pete1> where are the openttd datafiles save by default in linux?
12:11:36  <Someus> What are plans for openttd?
12:11:42  <planetmaker> readme, section 4, line 188, pete1
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12:12:17  <glx> planetmaker: you know it by heart ?
12:12:22  <frosch123> he, i would also have known section4, but you can already the line number?
12:12:40  <Someus> :)
12:12:47  <Someus> Because he is developer
12:12:48  <zxbiohazardzx> i recon he used quicksearch for that glx
12:12:59  <zxbiohazardzx> and i recon that this aint the first time someone asked
12:13:04  <Someus> That`s nothing special :)
12:13:15  <Someus> He is into it
12:14:22  <zxbiohazardzx> thats what she said
12:14:40  <Someus> she?
12:14:53  <planetmaker> frosch123: yes, I meanwhile know. I remember it from my browser's URL. It has lines encoded :-)
12:15:01  <planetmaker>
12:15:15  <planetmaker> for those who don't find it alongside their own openttd
12:15:50  <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: no, I really know by heart
12:16:00  <planetmaker> I answer that question about every 3 days or so
12:17:32  <planetmaker> though I feel very friendly giving that URL now, given the abuse I got from pete1 in private
12:20:30  <Rhamphoryncus> Okay, there's train fans, then there's this:
12:21:17  <Rhamphoryncus>
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12:24:08  <zxbiohazardzx> Aokromes --> SELECT * FROM `gameobject_loot_template` WHERE `entry`=10961 returns anything on your db?
12:24:43  <planetmaker> wth do you do, zxbiohazardzx?
12:24:44  <frosch123> wrong channel :)
12:24:56  <zxbiohazardzx> meh wrong one planetmaker :P
12:25:10  <zxbiohazardzx> i have like 10 channels open, missed the trinitycore channel and hit the ottd one :P
12:25:46  <planetmaker> don't do that with your girl friends. It has more sever consequences ;-)
12:26:17  <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, sever is about right
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12:26:38  <zxbiohazardzx> planetmaker nah they know about eachother, its ok
12:32:59  <Someus> Now i am shiping passengers
12:40:40  <planetmaker> all to an oil rig? ;-)
12:41:16  <zxbiohazardzx> haha epic
12:41:26  <zxbiohazardzx> just send pax trains to your HQ
12:41:38  <zxbiohazardzx> i can send ALOT of ppl to my HQ in that way
12:41:54  <zxbiohazardzx> HQ is 2x2 tiles, yet should house about 1 gazillion ppl in some maps :P
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12:45:27  <SquireJames> Hello all
12:45:56  <planetmaker> HELO
12:46:02  <SquireJames> I was wondering if someone might do me a small favour
12:46:06  <Rhamphoryncus> Hmm.  Another thing to explore on my hypothetical trainset is differential running cost to simulate track wear for different track types
12:46:28  <SquireJames> I can't seem to download any version of OTTD off the site. It times out no matter whether I choose a Nightly, Stable or Testing
12:46:39  <SquireJames> Does the same on my wifes laptop, so I am wondering if the site is down
12:47:03  <zxbiohazardzx> helo? in caps? tsss
12:47:20  <zxbiohazardzx> SquireJames ill try downloading 1 sec
12:47:22  <planetmaker> SquireJames: what URL does resolve to for you?
12:47:32  <planetmaker> if you enter it in your browser
12:47:37  <Rhamphoryncus> SquireJames: connects just fine for me
12:47:49  <SquireJames> Latest nightly url is
12:47:51  <SquireJames>
12:47:57  <NGC3982> i have been looking at the nick all this time, reading "SquirrelJames".
12:48:15  <zxbiohazardzx> works for me (University of Twente mirror)
12:48:20  * NGC3982 feels horrible.
12:48:28  <planetmaker> SquireJames: I mean the link I posted. Put that in your browser and hit enter
12:48:30  <zxbiohazardzx> if you click it, what FTP does it point to
12:48:32  <SquireJames> Hmm, i've tried it on both Firefox and IE, no go
12:48:43  <planetmaker> not the one you pasted
12:49:00  <SquireJames> oh okay, one moment
12:49:07  <frosch123> SquireJames: that url resolves to different servers depending on your location, so we need to know *which* mirror you are directed to
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12:49:51  <SquireJames> Right, I copy and pasted into my browser
12:49:59  <planetmaker> yes
12:49:59  <SquireJames> timed out still, but resolved to this
12:50:01  <SquireJames>
12:50:18  <planetmaker> ok. that's the info we need. peter's server. And he's not online. Thanks
12:50:31  <Someus> I like this game :)
12:50:34  <SquireJames> Is there a way to direct to a different server?
12:50:36  <Rhamphoryncus>
12:50:40  <frosch123> SquireJames: now just replace that "uk" with someting else
12:50:43  <frosch123> e.g. nl
12:50:44  <SquireJames> ah okay
12:50:50  <Rhamphoryncus> which doesn't work lol
12:51:04  <zxbiohazardzx> nl works fine
12:51:15  <planetmaker> hm, us neither?!
12:51:26  <Rhamphoryncus> Just the nightly isn't there
12:51:33  <planetmaker> yes. still. It should
12:51:45  <Rhamphoryncus> So it's a totally different problem XD
12:51:50  <SquireJames>
12:51:53  <SquireJames> that one worked for me
12:52:00  <zxbiohazardzx> dutch one works for me
12:52:39  <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, my fault, URL is wrong
12:53:16  <Rhamphoryncus> ->
12:53:19  <SquireJames> phew, well at least I know its not my ISP or my antivirus blocking stuff arbitrarily
12:53:33  <Rhamphoryncus> both us. and /binaries added
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12:54:30  <drac_boy> hi
12:55:37  <SquireJames> Hello there
12:56:36  <drac_boy> how're you squire? :)
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12:59:17  <SquireJames> No bad :) finally got over my flu bug
12:59:27  <SquireJames> just in time for work.. *sigh*
12:59:32  <drac_boy> ic, thats good
13:01:04  <drac_boy> work? meh no fun is it?
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13:01:55  <SquireJames> Particular my job. Feels like I accomplish nothing but there we go
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13:04:48  <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm.  I wonder if flat vs hilly should only apply to older engines.  Modern ones sound like they're converging on 6 axle with TE limited only by the tracks
13:04:54  *** Pikka_ is now known as Pikka
13:05:46  <drac_boy> metro trainset with 1000+ passenger capacity and 110km/h ..hmm
13:05:50  <zxbiohazardzx> on the chrill patchpack my landscape generation is screwed
13:06:00  <zxbiohazardzx> has 2 extremes and more smoothness options
13:06:04  <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus depends on which 'grades' you are using
13:06:14  <zxbiohazardzx> but that screwed up the whole generator, but then again its the patchpack version i dunno
13:06:24  <zxbiohazardzx> stable ottd at least generated the map i expected it to :P
13:06:24  <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: hmm?
13:07:20  <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus there was one direct line (now its sitting weedy) that was rather steep that even your modern diesel-ac locomotive only could take barely 900 tonnes up.  and thats 3000+hp you have on six axles ^_^
13:07:37  <drac_boy> but if you're only going with 1% setting I guess maybe yeah it wouldn't matter
13:08:10  <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: HP is irrelevant in that situation.  It's all about TE, which is limited by the track design and the number of axles
13:08:30  *** duality [] has joined #openttd
13:08:57  <drac_boy> well yeah I don't know what the listed tractive is for many of these recent emd/ge locomotives .. just know that they're usually with ac drive tho
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13:11:56  <Rhamphoryncus> A few of the wikipedia pages list it.
13:14:02  <SquireJames> So this hypothetical train set, I assume its a US-themed set?
13:14:15  <Rhamphoryncus> No theme
13:14:27  <Rhamphoryncus> It's meant to explore gameplay, not realism
13:17:33  <SquireJames> Ah I see
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13:20:44  <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy:
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13:32:36  <drac_boy> how do you make it that a train can't even leave the depot if it does not have a caboose on it btw? just wondering about something else related to that now
13:32:51  <Rhamphoryncus> I've no idea how that works
13:34:14  <zxbiohazardzx> you can make the engine check for a vehicle ID in its list?
13:34:32  <drac_boy> hmm good guess...
13:34:41  * drac_boy checks the newgrf for something to do with id limit
13:35:42  <Rhamphoryncus> They can change appearance and such when you reorganize a train.  Presumably that's what checks for the caboose
13:35:57  <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm.  Maybe without a caboose the engine is marked as not supporting any track types?
13:36:58  <planetmaker> drac_boy: you set a specific bitmask_vehicle_info for the caboose. You then check for the bitmask to have the caboose's bit set and disallow leaving depot when not set
13:37:16  <planetmaker> (e.g. by setting max speed to 0 in that case)
13:37:39  <planetmaker> probably there are other solutions, too
13:38:24  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: you cannot change the tracktype to not supported probably. Otherwise you couldn't build the engine in the first place
13:38:40  <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: *nod*
13:39:02  <Rhamphoryncus> But the principle is the same: check when the caboose is added and make the engine unusable somehow
13:39:38  <planetmaker> Thus with bitmask_vehicle_info set you can query the variable bitmask_consist_info in the speed callback
13:39:47  <planetmaker> (which is called upon consist change)
13:39:58  <drac_boy> hmm looks like it'll be a bit too much for me, thanks for the name tho planetmaker
13:40:54  <planetmaker> I quoted NML names. In NFO they might be called slightly different
13:41:28  <michi_cc> No need for hacks like setting the speed to zero, just use callback 31 (Vehicle Start/stop check).
13:41:58  <planetmaker> you also would want to make use of vehicle_is_in_depot in that CB
13:42:23  <planetmaker> ah, right, much better, michi_cc :-)
13:43:09  <planetmaker> start_stop in NML
13:44:16  <drac_boy> hmm thanks michi_cc, might think about it after all then
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13:47:58  <Poorunfortunatesouls> hey guys, can I ask a question please?
13:48:20  <Alberth> try it
13:48:40  <drac_boy> hi Alberth :)
13:48:50  <Poorunfortunatesouls> i've got some grfs and all that - but I want to load a game without them installed as I want the normal ingame things
13:49:04  <Alberth> not possible
13:49:09  <Poorunfortunatesouls> not at all?
13:49:32  <Alberth> a game contains the grfs that it needs, so if you load a game, you also load the grfs
13:49:48  <Alberth> you have to remove all grfs from the main menu, and then start a new game
13:49:51  <Poorunfortunatesouls> so I can't select which grfs I want in one game compared to another?
13:50:34  <Alberth> sure you can, but only before you start a new game, you can decide what grfs you want
13:50:47  <Alberth> once you started, the set of grfs is fixed for that game
13:50:52  <Poorunfortunatesouls> yeah that's what i'm asking - how do I do that?
13:51:01  <Alberth> go to the main menu
13:51:03  <Poorunfortunatesouls> I can't seem to select and deselect which ones I want
13:51:11  <Alberth> then newgrf settings
13:51:35  <Alberth> main menu = the screen that openttd starts with
13:51:41  <Alberth> ie not from within a game
13:51:44  <Poorunfortunatesouls> mmhmm
13:53:20  <zxbiohazardzx> there is a hacky way but its on your own risk, so go with alberths way
13:53:39  <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: that's only for newgrf developers, not for players
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13:56:34  <Poorunfortunatesouls> what do I do next Alberth?
13:56:57  <Alberth> what do you want to do?
13:57:18  <Poorunfortunatesouls> I want to take out the suspended monorail, and japanese trains and ukfinescale which it keeps saying is broken
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13:58:04  <Alberth> make a (mental) note that this combination is not working, and abort the game
13:58:20  <zxbiohazardzx> Alberth meh as a player i have it on
13:58:28  <Alberth> make a better newgrf setup, and start a new game
13:58:28  <zxbiohazardzx> if my game breaks then i know i fucked up, my risk
13:58:30  <zxbiohazardzx> :P
13:58:46  <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: living at the edge eh?  :)
13:58:46  <drac_boy> why japset+ukrails? :P
13:58:47  <zxbiohazardzx> mental note, paper note, notepad note, :P
13:58:54  <Poorunfortunatesouls> so remove the grfs I don't want to use from the menu
13:58:57  <Poorunfortunatesouls> close the game
13:58:58  <zxbiohazardzx> partially Alberth
13:58:59  <Poorunfortunatesouls> and reload?
13:59:09  <Alberth> reload won't work
13:59:14  <zxbiohazardzx> some additions are considered safe anyway if i read planets post correctly
13:59:23  <Alberth> you cannot change newgrfs in a running game
13:59:24  <zxbiohazardzx> and again if i fucked it up, then I fucked it up :P
13:59:43  <zxbiohazardzx> XD
13:59:57  <Poorunfortunatesouls> it's still not working :(
14:00:01  <Alberth> if you want to continue to play this game, you're stuck with the current grfs
14:00:27  <Poorunfortunatesouls> no
14:00:29  <Poorunfortunatesouls> it's a new game
14:00:35  <Poorunfortunatesouls> i've made a scenario
14:00:57  <Poorunfortunatesouls> and I want to play that scenario, but without the suspended monorail, japanese trains, etc etc
14:00:58  <Alberth> a scenario = a game
14:01:03  <Poorunfortunatesouls> I haven't played it yet
14:01:06  <Poorunfortunatesouls> it's brand new
14:01:07  <Alberth> unfortunately :(
14:01:36  <Poorunfortunatesouls> but i haven't played it yet?
14:01:48  <drac_boy> alberth what if he deleted the company .. went back to scenario editor, change grf and correct any landscape bugs ... and start a new game?
14:01:53  <zxbiohazardzx> meh strip it :P
14:02:00  <Alberth> you saved the file, that's enough to get stuck with the choices made by the scenario author (ie you)
14:02:29  <Alberth> drac_boy: in general won't work
14:02:45  <Poorunfortunatesouls> are you shitting me? Lol. So let me get this straight...
14:02:53  <Alberth> Poorunfortunatesouls: you can reload in the scenario editor, and save it as height-map
14:03:00  <Alberth> then start from that height map
14:03:15  <zxbiohazardzx> what is he trying to remove anyway?
14:03:17  <Poorunfortunatesouls> I need to remove the grfs, then create a scenario, and it should work then?
14:03:42  <Poorunfortunatesouls> zxbiohazardzx - Suspended monorail, japanese train sets, UK Finescale
14:03:50  <Alberth> then you have a scenario without grfs, and you won't have them for the entire game
14:04:07  <Poorunfortunatesouls> no, because I'll only remove the ones I don't want...
14:04:20  <Alberth> unfortunately, scenarios are very broken at the moment
14:04:22  <zxbiohazardzx> only the trainset will cause problems if you have any trains
14:04:30  <zxbiohazardzx> if you dont have trains then all 3 can be removed safely
14:04:40  <zxbiohazardzx> monorail only adds a railtype, removing it is "safe"
14:04:47  <Alberth> lol
14:04:48  <zxbiohazardzx> uk finescale similar story
14:04:50  <Poorunfortunatesouls> my dissertation wasn't this flipping confusing.
14:05:09  <zxbiohazardzx> if you have 0 trains then you can actually kill them out
14:05:22  <zxbiohazardzx> thats how i recovered a savegame of my own with some bad newgrfs
14:05:26  <Poorunfortunatesouls> but I base my transport systems around trains
14:05:34  <Alberth> Poorunfortunatesouls: it's not confusing, the scenario author controls which newgrfs you must use
14:05:36  <zxbiohazardzx> simply remove all trains then you can "safely" remove grfs related to them
14:05:53  <zxbiohazardzx> @Poorunfortunatesouls you cannot remove a GRF that is still in use;)
14:06:16  <zxbiohazardzx> just ask yourself: if i remove the train-graphics, what will the game show on my train...?
14:06:20  <teggi> any newgrf that by default sets cargocreation to max on all industries?
14:06:30  <drac_boy> whats cargocreation?
14:06:37  <teggi> bad english. :D
14:06:39  * Alberth ponders removing the option entirely, as users continue spreading their use
14:06:40  <Poorunfortunatesouls> When I say 'remove' I mean 'remove' in the newgrf settings panel
14:06:54  <zxbiohazardzx> yes same here
14:06:55  <teggi> drac_boy: meant production of cargo on e.g forests etc
14:07:13  <zxbiohazardzx> Alberth lolwut?
14:07:24  <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: you heard me
14:07:29  <drac_boy> teggi there is I think a particular grf (or was it just ottd advanced option in the cfg?) that lets you set outputs to whatever you want to between 32 to 2000+ tonnes
14:07:36  <zxbiohazardzx> im not sure i got it though :)
14:07:37  <drac_boy> its a silly idea I think but then whatever :)
14:07:50  <teggi> to each his own :p
14:07:58  <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: THE OPTION IS FOR NEWGRF DEVELOPERS ONLY
14:08:07  <drac_boy> I mean a lumber mill clearly can't produce 2000+ tonnes if theres almost no trees around :p
14:08:08  <zxbiohazardzx> Alberth whats life  without a little risk
14:08:19  <zxbiohazardzx> if your willing to accept the concequences then the option is for everyone
14:08:21  <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: that you life at the edge, fine
14:08:24  <zxbiohazardzx> but dont come crying along
14:08:34  <teggi> drac_boy i'd only like to change iron ore mines, coal mines etc, not the factories ++
14:08:40  <zxbiohazardzx> there are more options in a computer that have that behaviour
14:08:43  <Alberth> but don't continue spreading it to other users
14:08:45  <zxbiohazardzx> delete a huge file
14:08:53  <zxbiohazardzx> omg qq i accidentally did this
14:08:54  <drac_boy> teggi.. factories are not output industries .. they're secondary industries :)
14:09:11  <teggi> yeah, it just seemed you meant the secondaries aswell
14:09:13  <zxbiohazardzx> there is stilla "are you absolutely sure, all warrenty is lost etc" huge warning
14:09:21  <zxbiohazardzx> i dont see the problem with letting ppl know it exists
14:09:37  <zxbiohazardzx> the fact that it exists is good, and if ppl want to risk it to see if they can benefit from it in any way then let them
14:09:43  <Alberth> they don't read it, or don't understand it, and come crying to us
14:09:47  <zxbiohazardzx> save the file, try the change, if it crashes, load the old
14:09:59  <Alberth> crash is the good way of dying
14:10:09  <zxbiohazardzx> @Alberth yeah the QQ folks will always stay, regardless of what you do
14:10:30  <Alberth> normally it corrupts the file, and act 'weird' later
14:10:38  <zxbiohazardzx> i dont even understand why the NewGRF data isnt saved along the savegame in that case
14:10:45  <zxbiohazardzx> then you dont have "version" issues either
14:10:47  <Poorunfortunatesouls> I honestly don't understand a word being said. Can someone tell me, step-by-step, how to create a scenario, that I can play, without the ones I don't want?
14:10:53  <Alberth> hence my consideration of remving it entirely. End of discussion
14:10:59  <Alberth> game over
14:11:09  <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx problem is... newgrf can be 10+MB while a save would be only a few hundred kbs at the worst
14:11:16  <zxbiohazardzx> yes drac_boy
14:11:18  <drac_boy> so its a pointless idea..especially ever more if autosave is on
14:11:27  <Rhamphoryncus> Poorunfortunatesouls: Set the newgrf options you want from the start menu, start game
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14:11:37  <zxbiohazardzx> if the NewGRF cannot be "hot-swapped" then yes they should be integrated in the savegame
14:11:41  <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus I think thats already been mentioned
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14:11:49  <planetmaker> 16:08 Poorunfortunatesouls: zxbiohazardzx - Suspended monorail, japanese train sets, UK Finescale <-- I know that removing those three WILL 100% leave you with cruft which will not work as it should
14:11:56  <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx I do NOT want 20+mb saves...especially when theres more than ten of them
14:11:58  <drac_boy> ok?
14:12:03  <zxbiohazardzx> aka anything that makes the game unplayable after removal (and again, not all GRFs make it unplayable)
14:12:15  <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: too many things have been mentioned
14:12:17  <planetmaker> any NewGRF removal will break it.
14:12:18  *** zooks [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:12:19  <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy , you prefer having 20 versions of eg 2CC set in your grflist?
14:12:20  <planetmaker> or can break it
14:12:20  <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus heh :)
14:12:46  <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: that's what one does have, yes. Nothing bad with that
14:12:49  <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx why are you trying to play so many different games at once than finish one all the way?
14:12:54  <planetmaker> But you only get shown the newest one usually
14:13:09  <zxbiohazardzx> nah my list of grfs hates me bigtime :P
14:13:11  <planetmaker> when selecting newgrfs for a new game
14:13:16  <Alberth> Poorunfortunatesouls: in short, start again.  You can get the heightmap from your old scenario if you like
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14:13:39  <planetmaker> but you cannot update the newgrfs on an existing scenario without screwing up majorly
14:13:44  * drac_boy only has like about 15-20 grfs for all four climates anyhow. and two cfg files
14:13:48  <zxbiohazardzx> hmmz i tried
14:13:52  <zxbiohazardzx> it fails on the trainsets indeed
14:13:59  <zxbiohazardzx> but some town & trees updated just fine
14:14:01  <planetmaker> that's what I'm saying
14:14:03  <zxbiohazardzx> same for road/rails
14:14:12  <zxbiohazardzx> so its tricky
14:14:14  <planetmaker> town update fails, too
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14:14:21  <zxbiohazardzx> hmmz then i got lucky :P
14:14:30  <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: we are not kidding by discouraging its use!
14:14:51  <zxbiohazardzx> dont get me wrong im not saying you shouldnt discourage its use
14:15:00  <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx another thing do YOU think orudge would feel when the savegame uploads on forum suddenly goes from 4mb/day average to 30+mb/day average?
14:15:13  <drac_boy> thats a lot of bandwidth useage for "duplications"
14:15:20  <zxbiohazardzx> but do allow me to risk shit myself, im nt a wintendo user who needs a hand while peeing like a 5 year old
14:15:34  <zxbiohazardzx> if you dont want to read a huge red warning text before changing anything
14:15:35  <Alberth> drac_boy: and a good way to make sure any newgrf will never disappear :)
14:15:38  <planetmaker> newgrfs need not be part of savegames. But they're uniquely identified in the savegames
14:15:40  <zxbiohazardzx> then your not eligible for anything
14:15:43  <Rhamphoryncus> I have.. 48 GRFs I typically use
14:15:53  <drac_boy> planetmaker yeah that I could agree with for a change :)
14:16:00  <planetmaker> and bananas ensures that you can always retrieve the correct one. If you use those only which are thereon
14:16:06  <zxbiohazardzx> fair enough plantemaker, but not all the GRFs are on banana's
14:16:24  <planetmaker> yeah. Nor will ever be all there.
14:16:25  <zxbiohazardzx> specially Romazoon had a habit of picking the beta/nightly/whatever version of a GRF that is not and will never be on banana's
14:16:28  * drac_boy points zxbiohazardzx to download opencoopgrf then if you want only one secondary source
14:16:30  <planetmaker> but that's your risk
14:16:31  <zxbiohazardzx> try getting those files XD
14:16:35  <zxbiohazardzx> same risk, same game
14:16:42  <zxbiohazardzx> if i try to update them to banana versions
14:16:49  <drac_boy> planetmaker yeah
14:16:57  <zxbiohazardzx> then thats my risk, the big red warning is enough for most ppl
14:17:05  <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: don't use non-bananas in the first place, if you fear to loose the newgrfs
14:17:11  <zxbiohazardzx> im not affraid :P
14:17:34  <zxbiohazardzx> as i said, i love that "i know the risk, let me play and see if it crashes" option
14:17:38  <zxbiohazardzx> its like a minigame inside the game
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14:18:00  * planetmaker doesn't like that
14:18:15  *** Lachie [] has joined #openttd
14:18:18  * zxbiohazardzx wonders why
14:18:21  <V453000> well if you migrate all your openttd data including savegames, newgrfs and other stuff every time you change pc, you are ok with any newgrfs
14:18:29  <zxbiohazardzx> haha
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14:18:38  <planetmaker> I get the bugs which you produce by forcefully screwing it, zxbiohazardzx
14:18:39  <zxbiohazardzx> thats my issue mainly V453000
14:18:48  <zxbiohazardzx> nope you dont planetmaker
14:18:50  <planetmaker> and then spend my time figuring out only to see that you wanted it to crash
14:18:52  <V453000> but of course having newgrf on bananas is absoutely amazing
14:18:58  <zxbiohazardzx> any bugs in the marked games are not reported :P
14:19:07  <planetmaker> that's what she says
14:19:10  <zxbiohazardzx> i cant recall i reported anything anyway but still
14:19:14  <zxbiohazardzx> XD
14:19:31  <zxbiohazardzx> im using chrill patchpack on some of those saves as well
14:19:49  <zxbiohazardzx> << must.have.signals_in_tunnels&on_bridges >> :P
14:20:09  <zxbiohazardzx> high traffic networks + superlong bridges/tunnels == musthave patch :p
14:20:18  <zxbiohazardzx> but yeah
14:20:25  <zxbiohazardzx> i do see your pov planetmaker
14:20:40  <zxbiohazardzx> but i like to add some stuff i "forgot" to add
14:20:50  <Rubidium> signals on tunnels and bridges is a bad concept
14:20:54  <zxbiohazardzx> or remove 1-2 station GRFs that flooded the list (is there still a limit?)
14:21:00  <drac_boy> planetmaker I have to agree, pointless bugs are a annoying WASTE OF TIME
14:21:06  <zxbiohazardzx> Rubidium the patch is hacky and bad, the general idea is good
14:21:09  <drac_boy> thats why I always turn off auto-bugreport in any oses I use
14:21:45  <Rubidium> zxbiohazardzx: no, it's not. The idea should be: build infrastructure on bridges/in tunnels in the same way you do at ground level
14:22:20  <zxbiohazardzx> Rubidium that would also allow stations & waypoints for example?
14:22:32  <zxbiohazardzx> and thus introduce underground stations & layers, hell even bends and curves
14:22:37  <Rubidium> yes, and different kinds of signals at different locations on the bridge
14:22:39  <zxbiohazardzx> but since that wont happen any day soon
14:22:48  <Rubidium> and possibly even crossovers in tunnels
14:22:58  <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: thus we should make it impossible for all future?
14:23:05  <zxbiohazardzx> not at all
14:23:11  <zxbiohazardzx> but untill you release all that fancy shit
14:23:17  <zxbiohazardzx> im playing with something that works for now :P
14:23:26  <zxbiohazardzx> hacky & bad yes, but functional for now :)
14:23:27  <planetmaker> adding hacks makes good solutions sometimes impossible
14:23:33  <zxbiohazardzx> i know about that
14:23:38  <zxbiohazardzx> <-- trinitycore Wow
14:23:46  <zxbiohazardzx> i know that in trunk you cannot accept it
14:23:50  <Rubidium> not "hasn't blown up in my face yet"?
14:24:04  <zxbiohazardzx> Rubidium what?
14:24:24  <Rubidium> instead of the "works for now"
14:24:40  <drac_boy> hmm could I be missing any other english/translated-to terms here? subway, metro, tube, underground railway
14:24:42  <Rhamphoryncus> hey, the start of a 32bpp newgrf is on bananas XD
14:24:43  <zxbiohazardzx> haha
14:24:50  <drac_boy> its just for as general term btw
14:24:58  <zxbiohazardzx> hasnt blown up yet, nor smoked enough for me to worry too much about it
14:25:13  <zxbiohazardzx> what about IS sharing?
14:25:21  <zxbiohazardzx> i know the flaw with income sharing
14:25:31  <zxbiohazardzx> but imo thats seperate patch/issue
14:25:41  <zxbiohazardzx> infra sharing makes it possible to share the infra, not income :P
14:26:04  <Rubidium> if you want station sharing, then you must fix the income sharing issue first
14:26:15  <zxbiohazardzx> why that?
14:26:23  <planetmaker> to avoid bug reports
14:26:44  <planetmaker> as people *will* complain that they don't get income for their vehicles while they should
14:26:54  <zxbiohazardzx> ofc
14:27:07  <Eddi|zuHause> zxbiohazardzx: it's a separate patch, but it's a prerequisite
14:27:08  <planetmaker> so first fix the money distribution if you transfer fright via oil rigs
14:27:17  <planetmaker> *freight
14:27:27  <planetmaker> maybe also fright, though
14:27:29  <zxbiohazardzx> so first you have to adress income sharing / money transfer before you can share other stuff
14:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
14:28:02  <zxbiohazardzx> lame but fair enough :P
14:28:06  <Eddi|zuHause> if you fix transfer payment in the process, that's fine too
14:28:11  <zxbiohazardzx> <-- lacks coding skills :(
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14:31:29  <drac_boy> oh well I think I'll just go with a few fixed consists, too much trouble figuring out the callbacks
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14:39:07  <drac_boy> taking a break now..been at this for too long now -_-
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14:45:37  <andythenorth> Alberth: how would you remove the option to change newgrf?
14:45:41  <andythenorth> it's already 'removed' :P
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14:46:08  <Alberth> throw out all code related to the option
14:47:15  <andythenorth> hmm
14:47:18  <andythenorth> tempting
14:47:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: and how is a developer supposed to debug changes?
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14:47:26  <andythenorth> is the problem :P
14:47:28  <Alberth> restart
14:47:36  <andythenorth> ha
14:47:48  <andythenorth> how about compile own version with a compiler flag set?
14:48:01  <andythenorth> restart is unacceptable :P
14:48:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: you realize that one of the biggest problems in debugging is getting to a state where you can reproduce the effect?
14:49:08  <Alberth> you familiar with the save game concept, I hope? :p
14:49:13  <Alberth> +are
14:49:35  <Alberth> but yeah, it sucks in a very major way for newgrf developers
14:51:14  <andythenorth> but being a newgrf developer sucks anyway :P
14:51:19  <andythenorth> no gratitude
14:51:21  <andythenorth> no fanbase
14:51:29  <andythenorth> no  download fees
14:51:33  <andythenorth> and no newgrf smoke
14:51:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: yes, but a savegame won't help me if i can't alter the GRF in that savegame, to reload the changes i made
14:52:33  <planetmaker> indeed as newgrf developer I rely on being able to update or change newgrfs in existing games
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14:53:06  <andythenorth> ach I solved this last week
14:53:10  <andythenorth> deprecate newgrf
14:53:19  <andythenorth> it also demonstrably improves game performance
14:53:36  <andythenorth> and removes the main source of support / feature requests
14:54:35  <zxbiohazardzx> lol @ andythenorth
14:54:49  <zxbiohazardzx> so much hate on an option that is already well hidden and pops huge warning
14:55:20  <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: the warning means nothing, we had it before and yet we had to take additional action
14:55:46  <andythenorth> all we get now is pointless requests to put a sticky at the top of the forums
14:55:54  <andythenorth> explaining how to circumvent the check
14:55:55  <zxbiohazardzx> hehe
14:56:03  * andythenorth has an idea
14:56:07  <zxbiohazardzx> apparently ppl like to walk on the edge like i do?
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14:56:39  <andythenorth> the savegame already has a flag for 'newgrfs were screwed with'?
14:56:41  <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: I don't know, I never need it
14:56:46  <zxbiohazardzx> in general we lack a way of hot-swapping content in/out game. only allow removal of train grfs if 0 trains are ingame
14:56:56  <zxbiohazardzx> if you have 0 trains then afaik swapping trainsets etc is safe?
14:56:59  <zxbiohazardzx> stuff like that
14:57:01  <andythenorth> zxbiohazardzx: no
14:57:01  <Alberth> 0 trains is not enough
14:57:07  <andythenorth> nothing is safe
14:57:08  <zxbiohazardzx> if unused then change=allowed?
14:57:11  <andythenorth> no
14:57:13  <andythenorth> nothing is safe
14:57:15  <zxbiohazardzx> why is it not safe?
14:57:34  <andythenorth> because grfs can change their behaviour based on presence / absence / version of another grf
14:57:36  <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: stuff is added in the game structures, eg the list of engines you can buy
14:57:47  <zxbiohazardzx> yes but if you dont have anything like that open
14:57:47  <andythenorth> grf A can disable if grf B is found
14:58:05  <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: the structure exists no matter whether you have the window open
14:58:08  <andythenorth> ach
14:58:13  <andythenorth> I'm not going to argue this one
14:58:17  <andythenorth> here's what we should do:
14:58:17  <zxbiohazardzx> and why is that structure so hardcoded/solid
14:58:26  <zxbiohazardzx> and can it not be more variable/changeable
14:58:32  <andythenorth> (1) expose a 'newgrfs were changed' flag to newgrf
14:58:41  <andythenorth> (2) have all newgrfs disable themselves if changed
14:58:44  <Alberth> because all graphics etc come from newgrf, upto the base set
14:58:45  <andythenorth> end of problem
14:59:08  <andythenorth> we already have make targets for newgrfs
14:59:17  <zxbiohazardzx> the structure will always consists of a GUI element that fills with "trains" from "whatever source of trains
14:59:26  <Alberth> andythenorth: euhm, that would defeat the option, wouldn't it?
14:59:29  <andythenorth> my solution is the best so far
14:59:45  <andythenorth> Alberth: makefile would have a 'make dev' target
14:59:47  <zxbiohazardzx> structure there can be variable, load/unload of the variable list is safe as long as the variable link isnt used?
14:59:54  <zxbiohazardzx> haha
14:59:54  <andythenorth> zxbiohazardzx: no
15:00:08  <zxbiohazardzx> ofc not as im just thinking out loud :P
15:00:22  <andythenorth> it's really simple, I tried what you're trying lots of times :P
15:00:30  <zxbiohazardzx> probably
15:00:31  <andythenorth> any grf can break because another grf was changed
15:00:36  <andythenorth> that's all you need to know
15:00:47  <zxbiohazardzx> your saying that its impossible to change the game after you initially started it?
15:00:50  <andythenorth> yes
15:00:52  *** Sacro is now known as Sacro_
15:00:54  <andythenorth> nfo spec insists on it
15:00:58  <zxbiohazardzx> bad design?
15:01:01  <andythenorth> and the spec is golden and may never be changed
15:01:03  <andythenorth> yes bad design
15:01:11  <andythenorth> but the spec may never be changed
15:01:13  <zxbiohazardzx> and why can it not be changed?
15:01:18  *** Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
15:01:18  <andythenorth> because that is how it is
15:01:34  <andythenorth> because the spec says 'the spec won't be changed' :P
15:01:48  <andythenorth> it's kind of tautological :P
15:01:57  <zxbiohazardzx> lame bullshit is lame
15:02:06  <zxbiohazardzx> its code, so it can be changed
15:02:13  <zxbiohazardzx> its not desirable because of a ton of reasons
15:02:15  <zxbiohazardzx> but it can be done :P
15:02:20  <Rhamphoryncus> The only safe way to change would be saving locations of towns/industries/stations, creating a new game, and rebuilding them in the new places
15:02:28  <andythenorth> not true
15:02:30  <andythenorth> not safe
15:02:36  <andythenorth> this really isn't going to happen
15:02:41  <andythenorth> ask Rubidium :P
15:02:51  <planetmaker> that's actually the suggested way to work for scenarios...
15:02:57  <andythenorth> the 'correct' answer is to bin newgrf, but nobody dares do it
15:02:58  <zxbiohazardzx> and yes i seriously think that the inability to add newgrfs to an existing game is lacked hardcore
15:03:02  <Rhamphoryncus> Not reliable you mean.  There's no guarantee they'll let you put them back where they were :)
15:03:04  <zxbiohazardzx> even when creating a scenario
15:03:17  <zxbiohazardzx> you cannot change newgrfs at ANY point unless you generate landscape
15:03:21  <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: I'm thinking specifically about scenarios, yes
15:03:26  <planetmaker> It's not 100% reliable. But you change NewGRFs, so you don't want 100% the same
15:03:26  <zxbiohazardzx> and yes that is EXTREMELY lame
15:03:35  <andythenorth> Alberth: my suggestion about having newgrfs disable is deadly serious
15:04:02  <andythenorth> if some of the most popular newgrfs disable when others are changed, people will stop doing it
15:04:03  <zxbiohazardzx> andy disabling newgrfs is just as bad then?
15:04:08  <andythenorth> yes
15:04:10  <Alberth> andythenorth: oh, you mean without the option
15:04:11  <zxbiohazardzx> if i can disable it, then why can i not remove it?
15:04:37  <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: the only issue coming to mind (for scenario work) is providing the same random bits to the industry placement, so it produces the same variation
15:04:45  <zxbiohazardzx> adding & removing newgrfs is something that imo should be possible during scenario building and gameplay
15:04:55  <zxbiohazardzx> and yes i do understand that that will never happen
15:04:59  <Alberth> andythenorth: I had this idea:
15:05:03  <zxbiohazardzx> but dreaming is good
15:05:12  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: that won't work. But you can save the industry locations as well as road and house locations
15:05:14  <zxbiohazardzx> sounds nice
15:05:22  <planetmaker> and try to re-generate as close-as-possible houses and industries
15:05:25  <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: why won't it work?
15:05:27  <zxbiohazardzx> if you modify the files then add that red stuff
15:05:31  <planetmaker> going by their respective newgrf properties
15:05:37  <zxbiohazardzx> maybe make an option to hide it
15:05:41  <zxbiohazardzx> ugly red bad is ugly :P
15:05:46  <andythenorth> Alberth: that's just a variant on 'warning'
15:05:50  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: the generation code might change between revisions
15:05:51  <andythenorth> my suggestion is brute force
15:05:59  <zxbiohazardzx> or make it appear on load and exit
15:06:00  <Alberth> andythenorth: it's permanentin the screen
15:06:07  <planetmaker> getting the original industry props is more reliable
15:06:22  <zxbiohazardzx> Alberth how about making it show even bigger and on loading/closing of game
15:06:38  <andythenorth> if FIRS / FISH / CHIPS / UKRS2 / HEQS / OpenGFX+ / CETS / AV8 etc disable when grfs are changed
15:06:41  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: and it also would allow to switch from e.g. ECS to FIRS by matching closest 'friends'
15:06:44  <andythenorth> people will stop changing grfs
15:06:44  <Alberth> andythenorth: but it would trigger on many scenarios, causing false reports
15:06:49  <andythenorth> ?
15:06:55  <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: This is scenario editing.  Expose the random bits to the user, keep a list of which were used while making the scenario
15:06:58  <andythenorth> why is changing grfs on a scenario safe?
15:07:08  <zxbiohazardzx> anydy lol
15:07:18  <zxbiohazardzx> andythenorth disabling them makes stuff even worse
15:07:18  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: yes. I'm talking about changing NewGRFs in scenarios
15:07:29  <zxbiohazardzx> disabling GRFS based on other actions is bad and you know it
15:07:35  <zxbiohazardzx> i prefer alberths uber red bar
15:07:48  <andythenorth> the spec encourages me to do it
15:07:48  <zxbiohazardzx> and maybe extra confirmation before closing it :P
15:07:58  <zxbiohazardzx> fuck the spec your talking about
15:08:00  <Rubidium> changing NewGRFs is like walking on railway tracks. If you know what you're doing, and you're doing it right, then the chance of something going wrong is significantly lower than when you have no clue what you're doing. That's mostly the reason why it's forbidden for the mere 'mortals' to walk on railway tracks
15:08:04  <zxbiohazardzx> the spec is evil rom now on :P
15:08:16  <andythenorth> please can the 'newgrfs were changed' flag be exposed to newgrf
15:08:34  <zxbiohazardzx> Rubidium true to above, but the question is why is it a railway track, and not pavement
15:08:40  <zxbiohazardzx> aka why do newgrfs root so deep
15:08:50  <planetmaker> andythenorth: no. It will only make it worse
15:08:57  <andythenorth> how so?
15:09:01  <andythenorth> it will socially prevent the issue
15:09:03  <zxbiohazardzx> ^^ as i said planetmaker
15:09:11  <Rubidium> because they were never developed to be changed while running the game
15:09:21  <zxbiohazardzx> andythenorth no, grf designers may want to change it, but your changes will screw up the game?
15:09:27  <andythenorth> make it an action 7 / 9 environment var
15:09:34  <andythenorth> zxbiohazardzx: I don't care
15:09:37  <andythenorth> I really don't
15:09:46  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: you're proposing to cripple FIRS if I change a newgrf?
15:09:49  <andythenorth> yes
15:09:50  <zxbiohazardzx> andythenorth Alberths suggestion was way neater
15:09:51  <andythenorth> absolutely
15:09:54  <zxbiohazardzx> he was
15:09:55  <planetmaker> andythenorth: then it should be forbidden right in OpenTTD.
15:10:03  <andythenorth> then we can't develop grfs
15:10:06  <andythenorth> end of game
15:10:09  <Rubidium> and handling *all* the states where stuff can go wrong when changing a NewGRF will be an ever going battle
15:10:12  <Rhamphoryncus> asshole :P
15:10:13  <zxbiohazardzx> he was proposing to cripple whatever he created solely if smeone edits (maybe even their own) GRF
15:10:18  <zxbiohazardzx> and imo you cant do that :P
15:10:24  <planetmaker> andythenorth: so... and if you disable the NewGRF when things change, it becomes easier to dev newgrfs?
15:10:36  <zxbiohazardzx> you can cripple FISH if you edit FISH but the rest i think is different story
15:10:56  <Eddi|zuHause> people have been known to cripple their grfs just for loading them in openttd
15:11:04  * andythenorth really doesn't see the problem
15:11:18  <zxbiohazardzx> Eddi yes and i disapprove that as much as i do with andy's suggestion
15:11:20  <andythenorth> there would be a compile-time flag on the grf to enable / disable the chechk
15:11:25  <zxbiohazardzx> its pointless and lame and selfish only
15:11:28  <V453000> what is the problem with how it works now? :o
15:11:31  <andythenorth> zxbiohazardzx: fuck that
15:11:49  <andythenorth> it's lame and selfish to have to keep handling bad newgrf bug reports from people who have changed their grfs
15:11:53  <andythenorth> it's a waste of time
15:11:58  <zxbiohazardzx> andythenorth yes and no
15:12:05  <zxbiohazardzx> yes you shouldnt handle them
15:12:08  <planetmaker> no-one cares about if authors cripple their newgrfs. It's by design and we should not worry about that
15:12:11  <zxbiohazardzx> no i think crippling your file is horrible
15:12:17  <andythenorth> ach
15:12:21  * andythenorth is going to do other stuff
15:12:22  <zxbiohazardzx> planet as i said
15:12:23  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: it's a passive-aggressive way of saying "changing newgrfs is broken by design", sabotaging the user because openttd's own developer-tools flag is not harsh enough to satisfy you
15:12:25  <planetmaker> just don't use bogus or bad stuff
15:12:28  <andythenorth> this is remarkably stupid
15:12:31  <zxbiohazardzx> he may cripply his work if i touch his work
15:12:43  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
15:12:47  <zxbiohazardzx> but cripple his work if i modify my own work etc is just bad estetically
15:12:51  <planetmaker> quite what Rhamphoryncus says...
15:12:53  <Eddi|zuHause> zxbiohazardzx: the problem is that you only learn that they changed their grfs after you already spent significant time on the bug report
15:13:00  <zxbiohazardzx> the red warning from Alberth is way neater solution
15:13:08  <zxbiohazardzx> Eddi yes i know
15:13:17  <zxbiohazardzx> welcome to the horrible job of bugchecking & fixing
15:13:23  <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: red warning? Has anyone ever read it?
15:13:29  <zxbiohazardzx> morons and jerks report ghost issues
15:13:35  <V453000> why not just make a check if newgrfs were changed and flag the bugreports with that?
15:13:37  <zxbiohazardzx> planetmaker scroll up, see his suggestion
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15:13:39  <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: but it's no bug. It's abusing a developer setting
15:13:52  <Rubidium> V453000: that's what currently happens
15:14:04  <zxbiohazardzx> i know it is planetmaker
15:14:06  <Rubidium> also regarding crippling other NewGRFs... that's near trivial
15:14:16  <planetmaker> disable cross-talk
15:14:17  <Rubidium> you only need to know the other GRFIDs
15:14:34  <planetmaker> return false on any newgrf availability check
15:14:54  <Zuu> Am I just stupid, or why is it so complicated to figure out how to make a USB install drive for debian? Maby it is just easier to take the disk and put it in a old computer with a CD-drive and install debian there.
15:14:58  <planetmaker> but that's meh, too
15:15:16  <planetmaker> anyway... g2g. See you tomorrow folks
15:15:22  <zxbiohazardzx> haha cya
15:15:31  <zxbiohazardzx> but yeah i think NewGRFs are great
15:15:41  <Rubidium> there's less than a thousand used GRFIDs, so with 4 action Es you've disabled all current NewGRFs
15:15:49  <zxbiohazardzx> but if you forget 1 or want to add one then sometimes its a pain to go back to scratch
15:15:51  *** cypher [] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
15:16:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: any sane distribution lets you just put the CD image on a stick (via dd) nowadays
15:16:35  <zxbiohazardzx> specially on my "short" games where i dont intend on playing it too long then the "risk" is acceptable for me, and a bar like Alberth suggested would be sufficient
15:17:00  <zxbiohazardzx> anyway gonna get myself some foods
15:17:21  <Rhamphoryncus> Eddi|zuHause: so fix that.  Have a debug info window in the help menu that shows all the version info
15:17:21  <Rhamphoryncus> step 1 of reporting bug: C&P info from debug window
15:17:27  <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: That assums that you have linux installed on an non-virtual machine already. (which I do have, so maybe I should boot up that)
15:17:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: there's dd for windows
15:17:59  <Zuu> Oh, didn't knew that.
15:18:09  <Eddi|zuHause> although i don't know how that can access raw devices
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15:19:36  <Alberth> who cares, it's the wrong OS anyway ;p
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15:40:41  <oskari89> Well, should it be time for recolouring/texturing/shading something.
15:40:55  <oskari89> Let's see, some Russian hoppers :)
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15:48:06  <andythenorth> HMM
15:48:19  <andythenorth> finescale tracks grf looks a bit interesting with CHIPS
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15:59:50  <oskari89> andythenorth: Why all FISH ships are available from 1860's?
16:00:04  <oskari89> Isn't it a bit unrealistic?
16:00:15  <Eddi|zuHause> SHHH... we don't talk about this.
16:00:29  <oskari89> :D
16:01:20  <oskari89> FISHmaster. Hmm.
16:01:22  <oskari89>
16:02:01  <andythenorth> oskari89: it's because you don't have the finished version
16:03:49  <oskari89> Okay.
16:04:45  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: do *you* have the finished version?
16:06:34  <Rhamphoryncus> Question: if providing a high res 32bpp sprite is that in addition to the traditional res 8bpp sprite, with the game choosing the right one?
16:07:32  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: no, I don't :P
16:07:41  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: XD
16:08:00  <Eddi|zuHause> baaaah... i'm so utterly annoyed by this...
16:08:18  <andythenorth> quoi?
16:08:18  <Eddi|zuHause>
16:08:21  <Rhamphoryncus> bah ram ewe!
16:08:24  * Rhamphoryncus explodes
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16:10:55  <Eddi|zuHause> how did these lines ever pass a review?
16:12:07  <Eddi|zuHause> oh... revision 1 :p
16:22:33  <oskari89> Idea: Could wagon have a running sound?
16:22:44  <oskari89> Like in MSTS?
16:23:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure they could
16:23:02  <oskari89> Or it is too resurce-consuming?
16:24:26  <oskari89> Thought of this:
16:24:57  <andythenorth> mm
16:25:12  <andythenorth> < Rubidium> there's less than a thousand used GRFIDs, so with 4 action Es you've disabled all current NewGRFs <- this interests me
16:25:57  <andythenorth> gah
16:26:08  <andythenorth> varaction 2 has no access to ttdp vars iirc
16:26:24  <andythenorth> hmm
16:26:25  <Eddi|zuHause> no, why would they?
16:26:31  <andythenorth> wouldn't work anyway
16:26:38  <andythenorth> can't disable there :P
16:26:57  * andythenorth was trying to work out if a grf can store which other grfs are present
16:27:04  <andythenorth> and then disable everything if they change
16:27:26  <andythenorth> but exposing the flag would be best
16:27:44  <Eddi|zuHause> with all due respect, it would be horrible...
16:27:56  <oskari89> Yes it would.
16:28:22  <oskari89> Nonsense-idea, which is all but just ruining things :P
16:28:24  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why?
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16:29:12  <andythenorth> toddler kicked me out of the room :P
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16:29:51  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you compile your own ottd right?
16:30:04  <oskari89> Because if you are newgrf dev, such as i am and upgrade for example, Finnish Trainset in a middle of a game, there will be a mess of things :P
16:30:39  <oskari89> FIRS is good, but i will not use it if would behave like you plan :P
16:30:40  <andythenorth> so compile your own ottd, remove the 'newgrf changed' flag in the savegame
16:30:54  <andythenorth> I'm bored of this issue, it needs a brute force solution
16:31:06  <oskari89> Just ignore those reports :P
16:31:12  <andythenorth> ignore how exactly?
16:31:26  <andythenorth> hmm
16:31:31  <andythenorth> maybe I overlook something
16:32:29  <andythenorth> if I open the savegame in a text editor, where is the flag?
16:32:50  <andythenorth> I can't see it
16:33:09  <andythenorth> format looks encoded, nothing plain english or obvious hex in there
16:35:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: is this the point where i say "you're overthinking this"?
16:35:36  <andythenorth> might as well
16:35:36  <oskari89> Andythenorth: When do you plan to release FIRS 0.7.2?
16:35:50  <andythenorth> oskari89: when the compile farm has the correct version of NML
16:36:05  <oskari89> Ok.
16:36:16  <andythenorth> Ammler: when will the CF have the latest NML?
16:36:20  <andythenorth> is it a daily update?
16:36:37  <oskari89> andythenorth: Nonchanged industries, just language updates? :)
16:36:42  *** mal2_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:36:50  <oskari89> If so, i'm happy :)
16:36:59  <andythenorth> few graphics changed
16:37:05  <andythenorth> fixed an NML bug
16:37:17  <oskari89> But no industry chain changes?
16:37:28  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: +0.5 to overthinking
16:37:43  <andythenorth> but how do I check that flag manually?  I miss it
16:38:04  <oskari89> Hmm..
16:39:03  <oskari89>
16:39:07  <oskari89> Does that help?
16:39:28  <andythenorth> don't think so
16:39:34  <andythenorth> this an ottd-specific thing
16:40:37  <andythenorth> I'm looking for the easy way to ignore savegames where grfs have changed
16:42:19  <oskari89> Sounds good.
16:43:09  <Zuu> The "minimal" debian installer is 40 MB large. To large for my USB drives, so I ended up mounting the disk of my new computer in an old one to install the OS. Hopfully it will work fine. :-)
16:44:24  <Zuu> The new computer don't replace my desktop but will rather be a low-power additional linux toy. :-)
16:44:27  <SpComb> a 32MB USB drive?
16:46:11  <Zuu> My usb drives are 0.5 and 2 GB.
16:46:38  <SpComb> sounds like a 40MB installer would fit :)
16:46:43  <SpComb> or even the normal netinst CD version
16:47:23  <Zuu> Oh, my bad, I got it wrong by factor 1000 :-p
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16:49:12  <andythenorth> oskari89: if you get latest NML, you can build your own FIRS
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16:49:24  <frosch123> Zuu: neither a 40GB installer nor a 500kB USB stick sound correct :)
16:49:41  <SpComb> the full DVD set is probably like 40GB
16:50:15  <Zuu> frosch123: I though 40MB was more than 0.5 GB, but that was plainly wrong :-)
16:50:15  <frosch123> hmm, maybe zuu means a live system instead of a installer
16:50:40  * oskari89 thinks that #openttd is more on topic than #tycoon
16:50:41  <frosch123> so you were off by factor 10 :)
16:50:48  <Zuu> To little coffe I guess
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16:50:53  <frosch123> oskari89: nothing new
16:51:15  <__ln__> oskari89: oh, what can we do here to fix that?
16:51:22  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:51:32  <Zuu> __ln__: I'm trying my best :-)
16:51:34  <frosch123> #tycoon is occupied by the forum off-topic section for years
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16:51:58  <oskari89> __ln__: Nothing, it's just a stress-dumping channel :P
16:52:03  <oskari89> Or ot or so.
16:52:16  <SpComb> #tycoon, tt-forums off-topic section?
16:52:17  <SpComb> nein
16:52:35  <frosch123> i.e. those forum members you do not know, but who have 10000 posts nevertheless :p
16:52:59  <oskari89> :D
16:53:10  <oskari89> Place for veterans.
16:53:32  <SpComb> correct
16:54:16  <SpComb> the full debian dist is 52 images, it seems
16:54:24  <SpComb> CD's, I mean
16:54:57  <SpComb> that's a little over 30GB
16:55:15  <SpComb> I think you can  buy USB sticks that it would fit on comfortably, although it would probably take a day to copy it there :P
16:57:07  <frosch123> some years ago the complete content of a gentoo mirror was around 40GB
16:57:20  <SpComb> source dist?
16:57:28  <frosch123> yes
16:57:37  <SpComb> hmm, I wonder if the debian release CD sets include source as well
16:57:54  <frosch123> i had no internet at home, but a 100mbit connection to a gentoo mirror
16:58:02  <frosch123> so i copied it completely onto a usb disk
16:58:07  <frosch123> and then installed offline :p
16:58:42  <frosch123> [19:02] <frosch123> i had no internet at home, but a 100mbit connection to a gentoo mirror <- + "at university"
17:00:52  <SpComb> `make world`
17:01:03  <frosch123> emerge world
17:01:26  <SpComb> right
17:01:36  * SpComb is rusty on the gentoo stuff
17:02:03  <SpComb> I once updated a gentoo server, but then it broke itself and it's been debian ever since
17:02:21  <Rhamphoryncus> yay, unreproducible performance problem x_x
17:04:24  *** Chris_Booth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04:51  <NGC3982>  hilight!
17:05:04  * NGC3982 has the real life nick name rusty from time to time
17:09:45  *** Chris_Booth [] has joined #openttd
17:10:02  <Rhamphoryncus> The game is bogging severely when I scroll over a town.  This is a game I've been playing  awhile, it's pretty much done.  It was in 2012 but I cheated forward to 2100 just to see the last couple engines
17:10:29  <Rhamphoryncus> Saving and reloading in a seperate copy of openttd has no problems, neither does using the previous save and cheating forward the year again
17:11:30  <Rhamphoryncus> Attaching gdb and repeatedly interrupting for a bt is showing it spend a lot of time in GetRawSprite/ReadSprite
17:11:54  <Rhamphoryncus> But it's not a debug build so I don't have much to work with
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17:22:21  <Rhamphoryncus> GetSpriteCacheUsage() -> 52781584
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17:24:18  <Rhamphoryncus> That's where my instinct is pointing but I have no idea what else to poke at
17:28:04  <Alberth> in openttd.cfg, you can poke at sprite cache sizes
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17:28:19  <Alberth> o/ andy!
17:28:22  <andythenorth> o/
17:28:37  <Rubidium> oi
17:29:43  <Rhamphoryncus> Alberth: It doesn't have a problem when I load a save.  I only have the running copy of openttd exhibiting it, which isn't even a debug build
17:31:02  <andythenorth> the game does bog over cities
17:31:14  <Alberth> sprite stuff depends on what you look at, of course
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17:31:38  <Rhamphoryncus> This is not a little bogging.  This is 0.3 fps
17:31:42  <supermop> i have one game with a large city, with meticulously timetabled commuter trains and trams
17:31:57  <supermop> game almost stops when its on screen
17:32:06  <Rhamphoryncus> hmm, maybe closer to 1 fps on average
17:32:12  <andythenorth> may or may not be related to this
17:32:14  <Rhamphoryncus> If I hit x it immediately goes back to normal
17:32:33  <andythenorth> what town newgrf?
17:32:55  <Rubidium> nah, it smells like there are too many different sprites to draw in the viewport(s), so it doesn't fit in the cache and it needs to refetch them repeatedly
17:33:04  <Rhamphoryncus> total town replacement 2.13
17:33:07  <Rhamphoryncus> err 3.13
17:33:18  <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: so why does it work fine if I load a save?
17:33:22  <Rubidium> you might try changing the advanced setting for the maximum zoom in level (decrease it to 1x)
17:33:52  <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: different town? different buildings?
17:33:58  <Rubidium> or the cache got corrupted
17:34:04  <Rhamphoryncus> I think it's corrupted
17:34:24  <Rhamphoryncus> I take the game, pause it over the town, save, fire up a second copy of openttd, load that save, runs fine
17:36:18  <Rhamphoryncus> I did upgrade all the vehicles, which I haven't yet tried in the second copy, but throwing them into a depot didn't help
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17:41:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24115 /trunk/src/lang/polish.txt:
17:41:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:41:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: polish - 27 changes by Kilian
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18:00:41  <andythenorth> xiong: does this bug persist?
18:02:24  <xiong> andythenorth, M?
18:02:26  * xiong looks
18:03:02  <xiong> Persist after what change?
18:03:15  <xiong> Persist into RC4?
18:03:23  <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: reducing the max zoom level does indeed fix the performance.  I had no idea that's what the option was for
18:03:56  <Rubidium> it reduces the strain on the sprite cache
18:04:29  <xiong> I really need 2x zoom in; one of the best features to come around recently.
18:04:41  <xiong> I might try dispensing with 4x.
18:05:06  <Rubidium> roughly speaking increasing one zoom level requires 4 times more memory, so two does that by 16 times
18:05:07  <andythenorth> persists as in 'still exists'
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18:06:58  <Rhamphoryncus> Isn't the point of a cache to keep what's actively being used?
18:07:38  <xiong> andythenorth, In my current play, no Lumber Yard has been built; so the bug is indeterminate. I can create a game with such an industry... and the chemical chain to exercise it... and I'm happy to do so. But with what conditions? Has FIRS been updated? What shall I set up?
18:08:10  <Rhamphoryncus> Zooming in to 4x runs fine
18:08:15  <Rubidium> yes, but what zoom level of a sprite is used?
18:08:43  <xiong> I thought I heard that zooming *out* required more... something.
18:08:57  <xiong> Perhaps it's demanding either way.
18:09:02  <Rhamphoryncus> I don't understand the question
18:10:12  <Rubidium> for simplicity OpenTTD assumes a few things
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18:10:20  <Rubidium> 1) the sprite cache is usually big enough
18:10:39  <Rubidium> 2) you're likely too zoom in/zoom out
18:10:51  <andythenorth> xiong: nothing has changed in FIRS that would affect that bug
18:10:57  <Rubidium> so filling the sprite cache is generally a one time thing
18:11:12  <andythenorth> I thought you might be able to verify it faster than me, I don't have any games to hand
18:11:35  <andythenorth> apparently same issue exists for
18:11:45  <xiong> Um, then would you like me to attempt to replicate it under RC4? Would you perhaps like a veryclean test case?
18:11:48  <Rhamphoryncus> Ah, so regular misses are very, very expensive
18:11:52  <Rubidium> furthermore you need to know the sprite offsets and stuff to be able to know the right size (in memory) of the sprite (they all have to have the same size (after scalling) for scaling/zooming/drawing issues)
18:12:15  <xiong> I can remove most of my NewGRFs.
18:12:38  <Rubidium> which means to even load a single sprite and make sure it adheres to the requirements you need to load the other sprites as well
18:12:54  <Rubidium> so why not cache them then?
18:13:01  * xiong looks
18:13:08  <andythenorth> xiong: RC4 would be good
18:13:10  <Rubidium> especially as you can have all zoom levels of a sprite visible at the same time!
18:13:14  <andythenorth> newgrf interaction is...unlikely
18:13:24  <Rhamphoryncus> Is that the entire newgrf at once?  Or a smaller number of related sprites?
18:13:36  <Rubidium> and that's what my question regarding the 'used zoom level' of a sprite was about
18:13:45  <xiong> I've never had any Paper Mill issue I can recall. But it's easy enough to test that, as well.
18:14:18  <xiong> Let me make some coffee, andythenorth. I do have chores to do today but I'll see if I can't crank out something with the weird stuff isolated.
18:14:24  <andythenorth> it's most likely to be an issue with all secondary industry
18:14:37  <andythenorth> they have shared production code
18:14:41  <xiong> Dunno. Never seen an issue elsewhere.
18:14:45  <andythenorth> but might also just be a few isolated cases
18:15:11  <andythenorth> in both reports, chemicals is involved, but cargos should be a black box to the code
18:15:42  <oskari89> Andythenorth: Is there any tractor on your HEQS set?
18:15:48  <andythenorth> yes
18:16:23  <xiong> I seem to recall seeing something... somewhere... suggesting that not all FIRS cargoes are alike. That, for instance, in the case of the Lumber Yard, lumber is the main input and chemicals secondary; so while chem gives a boost, it's not expected to produce output on its own, despite the window saying different.
18:16:23  <oskari89> Can Finnish Trainset have one on Snps wagon? :)
18:16:28  <andythenorth> is it GPL?
18:16:38  <oskari89> Yes.
18:16:44  <andythenorth> go ahead :)
18:16:49  <oskari89> Thanks :)
18:16:53  <xiong> This is one reason I was hesitant to file a bug on this; I wasn't sure what was wrong: behavior or documentation.
18:16:59  <andythenorth> xiong: all cargos should result in output
18:17:17  <andythenorth> the codebase was significantly rewritten, and this is likely introduced by that
18:17:27  <xiong> I'm not arguing, andythenorth; I only note that "should" is a loaded word.
18:17:39  <oskari89> andythenorth: Graphics with them are for FIRS farm equipment refit ;)
18:17:45  <Rhamphoryncus> s/should/are supposed to/
18:17:45  <xiong> I'll certainly be happy to crank out a solid test case.
18:17:50  <andythenorth> thanks
18:17:52  <oskari89> Hauling tractors :)
18:17:59  <andythenorth> oskari89: you've got the HEQS repo checked out?
18:18:00  <xiong> No problem. But coffee....
18:18:09  <oskari89> Not yet.
18:18:20  <andythenorth> easiest way
18:18:22  <oskari89> You got link there?
18:18:32  <andythenorth>
18:18:38  <oskari89> Thanks :)
18:18:40  <andythenorth> or you can browse online
18:18:53  <andythenorth> the tractors are a little oversized for most train sets :P
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18:18:57  <andythenorth> but nvm
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18:20:28  <andythenorth> FIRS probably has a bug where some cargo is discarded under certain conditions.  Likely in this file:
18:20:28  <andythenorth>
18:20:40  <andythenorth> but I can't read that code, so I can't check by inspection :P
18:21:07  <oskari89> Hmm, the front wheels should be more front on the third last row :P
18:21:21  <oskari89> Otherwise good tractor.
18:21:41  <andythenorth> it's an early HEQS sprite
18:21:46  <andythenorth> they're not the best :P
18:22:34  <oskari89> Is there something newer than that?`
18:22:54  <andythenorth> no
18:23:06  <andythenorth> ah the 3rd last row - that's an articulated tractor that I never finished :P
18:23:27  *** KouDy [~KouDy@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:23:41  <oskari89> Okay..
18:24:02  <oskari89> I'll modify it a little bit :)
18:25:07  <oskari89> Front axle 3 px forward, that's more like it :)
18:25:49  <oskari89> Oh, but its an.... combine harvester? :D
18:27:29  <Rhamphoryncus> "How are we getting to work on the oil rig?"  "We're going to fly, then catch a ride on a combine harvester."
18:28:21  <telanus> Quick Question:STR_SORT_BY_RANGE The Range means distance? I'm translating it too Afrikaans and not sure what Afrikaans word to use, as we use different word for different meaning
18:29:01  <telanus> And don't want to use the wrong word in OpenTTD
18:29:56  <Rhamphoryncus> telanus: that's for aircraft and means how far they can go on one tank of fuel.  I don't believe it's currently used
18:30:07  <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: it's used with the new av8
18:30:10  <Rhamphoryncus> Rather, the text is used, but there's no functionality behind it
18:30:12  <Rhamphoryncus> oh nevermind XD
18:30:27  <Rhamphoryncus> Apparently my av8 just isn't new enough
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18:34:05  <Rhamphoryncus> telanus: specifically noun #7 here:
18:34:46  <andythenorth>
18:34:49  <andythenorth> Agro XXL
18:39:52  <telanus> Rhamphoryncus: Thanx :D
18:40:03  <Rhamphoryncus> telanus: glad to help :)
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18:47:09  <oskari89> andythenorth: Should i turn off the headlights of tractor when it's on wagon, or it's battery will run dry ;)
18:51:26  *** supermop [] has quit [Quit: supermop]
18:53:28  <andythenorth> sounds wise
18:54:30  <oskari89> Dunnit :)
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19:06:24  * Rhamphoryncus is looking at NUTS
19:06:28  * Rhamphoryncus is now afraid of V453000
19:08:20  *** Zeknurn [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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19:13:19  * andythenorth ponders installing smalltalk
19:13:30  *** TWerkhoven [] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into]
19:13:48  * telanus is fixing very bad translation errorsO:-)
19:16:26  <V453000> Rhamphoryncus: nothing to be afraid of :)
19:16:45  <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: you are completely batshit insane.  I respect that ;)
19:17:01  <V453000> :D I take that as a compliment, thanks
19:17:15  <Rhamphoryncus> hehe
19:17:55  <Rhamphoryncus> The wide disparity in stats is exactly what I've been looking for
19:18:43  <V453000> :) awesome
19:19:00  <V453000> that is the core idea of the set
19:19:12  <Rhamphoryncus> The uhh.. theme choice makes me cringe ;)
19:19:58  <V453000> I wrote an article about it a long time ago ... not all info fits now, but the general ideas remain
19:20:39  <V453000> nuts also has a readme ... which is actually outdated as well but it mentions some points too :)
19:21:57  *** tegro [] has joined #openttd
19:22:25  <tegro> I'm trying to download OpenTTD I keep getting a 404.
19:22:29  <tegro> Is there a mirror available?
19:23:05  <Rubidium> I guess it's the actual mirror giving you the 404
19:23:12  <Eddi|zuHause> tegro: <country-code>
19:24:13  <tegro> Eddi|zuHause: Perfect. :D Thanks. Where is that linked to on the homepage? I couldn't find it.
19:24:20  <tegro> Rubidium: I guess so too : )
19:24:48  <Rubidium> do you actually get a 404 or some other error?
19:24:57  <Rubidium> and what do you try to download exactly?
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19:25:27  <tegro> Rubidium: I click Download Stable, I select Windows64 and click the installer link.
19:25:32  <Rubidium> V453000: I would've chosen different names for the trains, e.g. Chestnut or Almond
19:26:07  <tegro> Rubidium: Then it times out and I get a 503.
19:26:16  <tegro> It's trying to connect to
19:26:53  <V453000> meh :)
19:27:21  <Rubidium> tegro: try again
19:27:56  <tegro> Rubidium: It now appears to be working. :)
19:27:57  <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: Skimmed over it.  I agree with it all except wagon length.  Even then I understand the reason for it.
19:28:18  <Rubidium> removed the GB mirror from the balancer
19:28:58  <V453000> well the wagons are still visually 4/8 or 8/8
19:29:30  <Eddi|zuHause> tegro: btw. the mirrors are listed on the links section of the homepage
19:29:35  *** Someus [~am@] has joined #openttd
19:29:38  <Someus> Hi
19:29:45  <Someus> Want to play online with me?
19:30:56  <Someus> I can`t make my for trains to deliver coal in right way
19:31:01  <Someus> four trains
19:31:15  <Someus> That signal thing
19:33:39  <Wolf01> 'night all
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19:54:20  <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: no autorefit :O
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20:03:35  <V453000> no, retarded featuer
20:03:48  <V453000> only takes away all kind of why refit is interesting
20:08:15  <Rhamphoryncus> Depots are retarded :P
20:08:20  <Rhamphoryncus> I love autorefit
20:09:54  <V453000> well ... if you do a refit game, it is interesting by being specific and building a refit station is a very interesting task. While if you do it with autorefit, it is totally the same as building an ordinary station
20:10:46  <Rhamphoryncus> Not everybody plays the same way you do ;)
20:11:05  <Rhamphoryncus> Refit stations would be interesting.. if they actually existed rather than being depots
20:11:47  <V453000>
20:12:03  <V453000> it can be a lot smaller of course
20:12:06  <oskari89> andythenorth: I have a FIRS cargo request :)
20:12:09  <oskari89> Peat :)
20:12:23  <V453000> but it is a category of building, which is just simply killed with autorefit
20:12:26  <V453000> which I refuse
20:12:40  <oskari89> It can be shipped to power station, instead of coal.
20:12:48  <FLHerne> Is autorefit optional?
20:13:14  <V453000> yes, the newgrf must allow it FLHerne
20:13:36  <Rhamphoryncus> It'd be easy to make as a newgrf config option
20:13:57  <Rhamphoryncus> What about boats?  Do you refuse to use them? ;)
20:14:14  <V453000> yes
20:14:21  <V453000> nothing interesting in doing so
20:14:43  <Rhamphoryncus> Autorefit being a very different building style
20:15:03  <V453000> not quite, what exactly is different?
20:15:21  <V453000> autorefit is automatizing normal stations to do something else, but you build the same as normally
20:15:23  <Rhamphoryncus> Very different from your refit station
20:15:36  <V453000> how is it different from a normal station
20:15:47  <Rhamphoryncus> Naw, you have to actually use one station, unlike normal openttdcoop
20:15:59  <V453000> ?
20:16:28  *** Poorunfortunatesouls [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
20:16:32  <Rhamphoryncus> .. the whole reason you object to it?  It doesn't need a depot in the middle of every platform?
20:16:51  <V453000> it doesnt matter of what the refit station consists
20:17:17  <V453000> My problem is that an autorefit station is a totally ordinary station without anything specific
20:17:20  *** drac_boy [] has joined #openttd
20:17:22  <drac_boy> hi
20:17:31  <Rhamphoryncus> So?  Try to find a way to fix that
20:17:43  <V453000> not use autorefit
20:17:45  <V453000> only way
20:18:02  <V453000> the point of the feature is exactly that
20:18:13  <Rhamphoryncus> urgh
20:18:34  <Rhamphoryncus> So what is the license on NUTS?
20:18:54  <V453000> all rights reserverd of course
20:18:59  <Rhamphoryncus> blah
20:19:12  <Rhamphoryncus> Infighting is such fun
20:19:16  <V453000> yes exactly, no messing with and adding stupid features
20:19:36  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't actually forbid that
20:20:06  <drac_boy> eddi at least he can make sure it isn't included in the offical release of his own tho no?
20:20:11  <V453000> well the license forbids pretty much anything doesnt it
20:20:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you always have the right to reverse-engineer and modify a program "for compatibility"
20:20:32  <andythenorth> today appears to be a day of strong opinions :P
20:20:40  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: indeed
20:20:40  <Eddi|zuHause> as long as you have a license
20:20:52  <andythenorth> V453000: it's ok, when I get my way any of my grfs will disable yours anyway :P
20:21:00  <andythenorth> I have upgraded my plan
20:21:04  <Eddi|zuHause> and you can pass along all information needed to make the modifications to all other people with a valid license
20:21:19  <andythenorth> I'm aiming to now persuade grf authors to include a feature in their grfs
20:21:25  <andythenorth> that will disable all grfs used
20:21:34  <andythenorth> thereby solving all problems with newgrf
20:21:36  <andythenorth> no bug reports
20:21:36  <V453000> lol
20:21:41  <andythenorth> no feature requests
20:21:55  <andythenorth> it's like rm *
20:22:07  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth really needs to get some sleep
20:22:08  <andythenorth> except we can still say 'hundreds of newgrfs made by the community'
20:22:14  <Eddi|zuHause> a whole week or so
20:22:16  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: + 0.7999
20:22:38  <andythenorth> and also I stopped taking codeine
20:22:41  <Prof_Frink> Newgrfs are evil anyway. We should all play TTD as Lord Chris intended.
20:22:42  <andythenorth> for the obvious reasons :P
20:23:14  <andythenorth> where's monsieur bird?
20:23:15  <V453000> what is the point of this discussion anyway? Rhamphoryncus just refuses to accept that I have good reasons why not to include auto-refit and even considers to add it to my set knowing that I disagree? That is royally rude even if the license allowed it.
20:23:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: you mean without Win2k compatibility?
20:23:25  <andythenorth> monsieur stops me saying silly things
20:23:28  <drac_boy> Prof_Frink heh well I wouldn't mind that considering its easy to exchange the sprites in the original grf to get a non-uk presence anyway :)
20:23:32  <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: no, that's the entire POINT of having an open source license
20:23:39  <drac_boy> eg replace the pannier 0-6-0T with a normal slim tank black 0-6-0T
20:23:41  <Prof_Frink> drac_boy: Blasphemy!
20:24:04  <V453000> Rhamphoryncus: make your own set?
20:24:05  <drac_boy> Prof_Frink well I already have a heavily modified ttd grf mind you
20:24:29  <Rhamphoryncus> I've pondered that.  It'll end up remarkably similar in stats to yours :/
20:24:34  <Rhamphoryncus> (same goals)
20:24:44  <V453000> too bad
20:24:50  <Prof_Frink> Burn the heretic!
20:24:56  <Rhamphoryncus> Lots of duplicated effort, unfortunately
20:25:14  <V453000> nah you will have the almighty autorefit
20:26:26  * telanus think it's enough translating for one evening, 20 new translations and about the same if not more fixed
20:26:48  * NGC3982 sets up a network game just so he can play singelplayer with lots and lots of monitors.
20:27:10  <NGC3982> the game gets fantasticly intricate with one monitor for the <what i see>, and one for the statistics and map.
20:28:14  <drac_boy> heh
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20:28:33  <drac_boy> telanus heh I still have to sort out some translatings here .. still have a few difficult words left :-s
20:30:27  <drac_boy> how many languages you working with telanus?
20:30:33  <drac_boy> me just only one at least :)
20:30:38  <telanus> Yip know that feeling, especially if there is 5 different meanings for the same word, and when translated it can be up to 12 different words, depending on what meant
20:30:51  <telanus> I'm only busy with one ATM
20:31:26  <Rhamphoryncus> I only know english, and even that I argue with people about
20:31:58  <telanus> As I only know Afrikaans and English
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20:32:25  <drac_boy> afrikaans.... africa or I'm wrong?
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20:32:48  <frosch123> drac_boy: netherlands
20:33:00  <telanus> yip: South Africa
20:33:25  <Alberth> good night all
20:33:28  <telanus> Netherlands = Dutch If I remember correctly
20:33:39  <telanus> Night Albetth
20:33:43  <Alberth> telanus: correct
20:33:47  <drac_boy> bye Alberth
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20:33:59  <frosch123> yeah, but aren't africaan and dutch almost the same?
20:34:08  <drac_boy> telanus ... deutsch? :)
20:34:17  <telanus> They are closely related
20:34:40  <telanus> Deutsch = German
20:34:55  <drac_boy> yeah thats what I'm working with btw
20:35:04  <drac_boy> lot of things were easy to figure out, a few I had to ask here about
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20:35:20  <telanus> Afrikaans was once called kitchen dutch
20:35:20  <drac_boy> but theres a few more thats a bit stumping .. some train related and some not
20:35:43  <__ln__> so if i write dutch by mixing german + english while spelling the words in a funny way, what should i do more to get afrikaans?
20:36:05  <andythenorth> can anyone build FIRS 0.7.2 and tell me the md5 sum?
20:36:12  <andythenorth> it needs the latest NML
20:38:22  <frosch123> grfid -m firs.grf
20:38:25  <frosch123> 9d9fe152fbfab57313a7e88509015518
20:38:56  <telanus>  __ln__: a lot more is needed, like we use double negatives, (like I didn't do it would be ek het dit nie gedoen nie)
20:39:10  <andythenorth> hmm
20:39:13  <andythenorth> doesn't match
20:39:15  <andythenorth> I have 9d9fe152fbfab57313a7e88509015518
20:39:16  <andythenorth> :(
20:39:20  <andythenorth> oops
20:39:26  <andythenorth> I have fbc1ce3202e6914c9312bf32384588b6
20:39:27  <andythenorth> :)
20:39:56  <andythenorth> compile farm has 857e59929e676a933bf5fd91f23ded31
20:41:06  <frosch123> [22:43] <andythenorth> I have fbc1ce3202e6914c9312bf32384588b6 <- that is the md5sum of the whole file
20:41:11  <frosch123> you should use grfid -m
20:42:12  <andythenorth> where / how?
20:42:15  <andythenorth> :o
20:42:26  <frosch123> in the grfcodec package :)
20:42:51  <frosch123> grf container 2 files compute the md5sum only for the data part, not for the sprite part
20:43:15  <frosch123> that way you can strip 32bpp or zoom sprites from a grf without changing the md5sum
20:43:52  <frosch123> so, what md5sum does the devzone generate?
20:43:59  <frosch123> maybe for the whole bundle? :p
20:47:15  <andythenorth> so my md5 matches yours
20:47:28  <andythenorth> so I can probably release
20:54:01  <frosch123> night
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20:54:39  <NGC3982> when was tractive effort introduced?
20:56:32  <Terkhen> for trains? years ago, along with realistic acceleration
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20:59:39  <andythenorth> bye
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21:01:59  <NGC3982> Terkhen: i see.
21:02:19  <NGC3982> for some reason, i have never seen it.
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21:04:45  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: it's only shown when realistic acceleration is enabled
21:05:19  <NGC3982> ah, that explains it.
21:17:52  <Terkhen> good night
21:19:08  <NGC3982> Terkhen: night
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22:24:40  <drac_boy> hmm what would be a 'marketplace' in german
22:25:41  <NGC3982> marktplatz?
22:26:18  <drac_boy> oh...should had seen that one coming
22:26:23  <drac_boy> thanks
22:27:09  <NGC3982> im not really sure
22:27:21  <NGC3982> that is just the litteral translation of market and place.
22:27:22  <NGC3982> :)
22:28:18  <drac_boy> heh I'll start with it for now tho :)
22:32:40  <NGC3982>
22:32:47  <NGC3982> what am i missing here? :)
22:35:08  <drac_boy> full != 50
22:35:10  <drac_boy> :p
22:35:43  <NGC3982> if i set it to load normally it just takes the amount in the station and leaves
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22:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. that is what that means
22:37:29  <NGC3982> can i make it wait until 50% is loaded?
22:37:36  <Eddi|zuHause> no
22:37:46  <NGC3982> ah, i see.
22:37:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you can only make it go a small loop if it's not 50%
22:38:15  <Eddi|zuHause> to get back to the same station
22:38:30  <NGC3982> ok
22:39:10  <Eddi|zuHause> in other notes: "exactly" 50% will almost never happen
22:39:51  <NGC3982> i see. well, better make more trains instead :)
22:39:52  <NGC3982> thank you.
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22:57:01  <drac_boy> hmm just realized something
22:57:27  <drac_boy> many decent laptops are oem from uniwill which turns out to be a branch of ECS ... makes me wondering if its even trusty or not
23:03:06  <drac_boy> oh well maybe rather not
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23:27:38  <Zuu> NGC3982: The AI AIAI uses the conditional order trick to make vehicles load at least some cargo before departuring to the destination. It causes the vehicles to drive around in a loop at the source station untill they get some cargo.
23:29:14  <drac_boy> heh sounds like the old AI as usual, not even knowing how to think :)
23:29:26  <Zuu> CluelessPlus toggles full load for town to town connections on and off under certain conditions. Eg. if all vehicles end up loading at one end so that the rating drops under some limit at the other side. Though, this is more of a workaround to the problem that it buys to large aircrafts for some connections.
23:33:51  * drac_boy just never had wanted to bother with the AI in any sort of ways :/
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23:46:48  <Zuu> I never used to play with AIs until I wrote one.
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