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00:04:37 <Mazur> morten: Have you looked at /usr/local/bin ? 00:04:48 <Mazur> Oh, he;s already gone. 00:14:35 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d8208e5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:14:51 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d8208e5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 00:16:43 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-89-176-205-158.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 00:17:51 *** Mek_ [~quassel@marijnalexwedding.com] has joined #openttd 00:20:28 *** Mek [~quassel@marijnalexwedding.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:21:30 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.114.232.248.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd 00:23:19 *** Mek_ is now known as Mek 00:39:51 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:39:56 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:39:56 *** Ammler [~ammler@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:40:21 *** xQR [xor@the.x-base.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:40:42 *** xQR [xor@the.x-base.org] has joined #openttd 00:41:49 *** Ammler [~ammler@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 00:42:19 *** XeryusTC [~XeryusTC@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 00:42:49 *** planetmaker [~planetmak@178.63.83.101] has joined #openttd 00:43:21 *** planetmaker is now known as Guest1005 00:48:54 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d8208e5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us] 00:56:53 *** bb10X [~bb10@bb10x.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:58:53 *** bb10 [~bb10@bb10x.org] has joined #openttd 01:02:57 *** Stimrol_ [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 01:02:57 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6D81.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:03:27 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 01:06:23 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6D81.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 01:10:47 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-069-005.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 01:25:18 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6D81.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 01:29:29 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6D81.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38:05 *** brambles [brambles@79.133.200.49] has quit [Quit: leaving] 01:38:50 *** brambles [brambles@79.133.200.49] has joined #openttd 01:43:53 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.114.232.248.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:55:30 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6CFAB.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 02:01:53 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6D81.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:28:57 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:3046:2b93:3f65:51db] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:46:42 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:53:39 *** KouDy [~KouDy@175.137.102.249] has joined #openttd 03:04:19 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-121-60.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 03:08:14 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-250-2-219.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 03:22:14 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:27:38 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 03:59:34 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-250-2-219.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 04:38:35 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 04:40:24 <DDR> Heck yeah... random refinery just built up opposite to where I was shipping oil to another refinery, so I switched the truck feeders to that refinery to transfers and now my ships are taking oil both ways for double profit! :D 04:42:12 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 04:49:32 <Rhamphoryncus> oh nice 04:51:14 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC67AD9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 04:51:30 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC679A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:07:33 *** telanus [~Barney_Er@196.215.173.27] has joined #openttd 05:21:40 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e09ee84.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:24:48 *** roadt__ [~roadt@60.168.94.103] has joined #openttd 05:53:03 *** KouDy [~KouDy@175.137.102.249] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:55:43 *** KouDy [~KouDy@175.137.102.249] has joined #openttd 06:00:00 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-89-240.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 06:05:54 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6CFAB.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:15:31 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:24:46 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-89-176-205-158.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 06:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> [11. April 2012] [21:35:05] <__ln__> http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ <-- http://www.flickr.com/photos/raindrift/sets/72157629492908038/ 06:27:56 <Rhamphoryncus> Eddi|zuHause: words escape me 06:28:09 <Rhamphoryncus> Well actually, I can think of a few words, but none I want to say ;) 06:29:22 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 06:30:57 *** roadt__ [~roadt@60.168.94.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:33:35 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-19-234.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 06:38:32 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-89-240.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:42:41 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:49:28 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:00:47 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-89-176-205-158.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:16:06 <Rhamphoryncus> fun fact: evil mode can be cleared by imposing a temporary speed limit 07:16:48 <Rhamphoryncus> This spaces out the trains that aren't there yet, letting the backlog clear and full speed resume 07:17:44 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: haha 07:21:40 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-19-234.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:21:48 *** krinn [~krinn@114.54.71.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 07:24:24 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 07:35:27 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 07:49:31 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:53:52 *** roadt__ [~roadt@60.168.94.103] has joined #openttd 08:00:27 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-121-60.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:19:12 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 08:26:59 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:29:26 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 08:38:42 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:43:48 *** mal2 [~mal2@z529a.pia.fu-berlin.de] has joined #openttd 08:50:40 *** goodger [~ben@94-30-43-248.xdsl.murphx.net] has joined #openttd 09:09:14 *** ffpp [~me@dslb-188-097-084-128.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 09:17:07 *** mal2 [~mal2@z529a.pia.fu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:20:46 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:35:54 <NGC3982> ah, NGC3982 has some competition. 09:36:32 <NGC3982> NGC4258 (M106) is fantasticly profiled by CXC with the blue x-rays and red IR 09:36:42 <NGC3982> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Messier_106_by_Spitzer.jpg 09:38:24 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:50:47 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 10:06:16 *** mal2 [~mal2@z529a.pia.fu-berlin.de] has joined #openttd 10:06:33 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-035-157.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 10:09:11 *** ffpp [~me@dslb-188-097-084-128.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:11:00 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@bas1-ottawa08-1177643171.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd 10:11:05 <drac_boy> hi 10:11:36 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:23:10 *** Guest1005 is now known as planetmaker 10:23:36 <planetmaker> @op 10:34:33 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 10:37:05 <drac_boy> hi FLHerne :) 10:50:44 *** APTX [APTX@89-78-217-144.dynamic.chello.pl] has joined #openttd 11:04:51 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6CFAB.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 11:05:41 *** mal2 [~mal2@z529a.pia.fu-berlin.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:14:07 *** zooks [~zooks@131.174.33.183] has joined #openttd 11:26:46 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 11:38:59 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-43-55.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 11:41:24 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 11:52:03 *** Firartix [~artixds@147.215.81.100] has joined #openttd 11:55:35 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-19-234.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 11:58:37 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-43-55.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:00:16 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:3dd9:1ef1:4c78:8333] has joined #openttd 12:00:19 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:19:04 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 12:53:45 <Ammler> [14:56] <vuntz> grr, tarball is openttd-1.2.0-source.tar.xz (not the usual scheme) <-- just you know, I am not the only guy not liking the uncommon -source 12:54:13 <planetmaker> what is usual? *-src-* 12:54:17 <Ammler> none 12:54:31 <Ammler> the source bundle is usually called package-version.tar.gz 12:56:19 <planetmaker> aha. And how do you distinguish it from a binary package? 12:56:38 <Ammler> the binary package does have a arch in the bundle name 12:56:41 <peter1138> by the lack of a binary indicator 12:57:37 <peter1138> but we've done it this way since forever 12:57:49 <peter1138> don't think it makes a big difference :) 12:58:36 <Ammler> well, it needs custom config 12:59:53 <Ammler> the question is, is more complicated to fix it and so current configs needs to change to default or always need to setup special config for openttd 13:00:05 <peter1138> custom config of what? 13:00:39 <Ammler> to get upstream version 13:00:48 <Ammler> to prepare source bundle 13:00:52 <peter1138> huh? 13:01:10 <peter1138> you're talking about something specific without saying what 13:01:21 <peter1138> i don't require any 'config' to grab the latest source and compile it 13:01:33 <Ammler> e.g on rpm, you need to specify the package name as it is not default 13:02:08 <Ammler> like %setup -n openttd-version-source instead just %setup 13:02:30 <peter1138> once that line is there, how many times do you need to reenter it? 13:03:27 <Ammler> as said, hat is the question, what is easier to change existing configs or keep "wrong config" 13:03:46 <Rienzilla> hmm 13:03:55 <Rienzilla> can a dedicated server go on pause if there's no client connected? 13:03:55 <peter1138> it's not "wrong" 13:03:59 <peter1138> Rienzilla, yes 13:04:08 <Rienzilla> how? 13:04:09 <Ammler> s/wrong/uncommon/ 13:04:18 <peter1138> it's not that uncommon either 13:04:33 <peter1138> Rienzilla, check the settings 13:04:41 <Ammler> you know a 2nd project using that uncommon file sheme? 13:08:50 <Rienzilla> ah 13:08:57 <Rienzilla> foudn it 13:08:58 <Rienzilla> thanks 13:09:16 *** zooks [~zooks@131.174.33.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:19:24 <blathijs> Ammler: planetmaker: I am also slightly discontent with the -source postfix, FWIW 13:20:04 <blathijs> Though it just means that I manually need enter the package version whenever I import a new OpenTTD version, since git-buildpackages autodetects the version as 1.2.0-source 13:34:23 <Ammler> wow, that is even worse as for us :-) 13:34:50 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:23 <Ammler> well, the lack of customation for such version grep is prove to me that it _is_ uncommon 13:38:13 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 13:40:38 <Terkhen> hello 13:42:03 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 13:46:05 <blathijs> Ammler: Well, it's not so bad. I can handle a few extra keystrokes every few months, really :-) 13:48:31 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:53:28 <Ammler> it is less for me, it is just that evryone who setup it needs to customize it 14:01:04 *** Sacro_ [~ben@150.237.48.99] has joined #openttd 14:01:05 *** Sacro_ [~ben@150.237.48.99] has quit [] 14:04:26 <blathijs> Ammler: You mean everyone who wants to compile the rpm? 14:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> more like everyboy who writes a specfile 14:06:29 <Eddi|zuHause> which i don't think happens often... people will just copy an existing one 14:06:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think i fully understood the problem anyway 14:13:59 *** Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20:05 <Ammler> blathijs: no, everyone who setup build 14:20:14 <Ammler> or monitoring version change etc,. 14:21:08 <blathijs> Ah, so no big deal 14:22:43 <Ammler> well, if you fix it, it is work for me, but still I would prefer it :-) 14:48:15 *** Firartix [~artixds@147.215.81.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:52:36 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e09ee84.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 14:59:16 <drac_boy> zzz? heh 15:03:11 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 15:04:45 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BCD3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:16:58 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:19:00 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-32.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 15:29:32 <drac_boy> hmm vineyards or not 15:30:02 *** mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-102-165.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 15:35:28 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:44:05 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@bas1-ottawa08-1177643171.dsl.bell.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 15:53:08 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-114-19.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 15:53:11 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 15:57:32 <andythenorth> vineyards 15:57:37 <supermop> yes 15:57:53 <supermop> more alcohol in ottd 15:58:13 <supermop> better throw in poppy fields and marijuana plantations too 15:58:56 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-102-231.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:01:39 <NGC3982> :D 16:05:13 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:05 *** oskari89 [~oskari89@213-186-253-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 16:09:33 <telanus> just making certain: da{P g e} would give me dag and dae depending on singular vs multiple 16:11:09 <glx> yes 16:12:10 <telanus> thank You 16:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause> vineyards produce fruit, not alcohol :) 16:14:55 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db0f49e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:16:56 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: depends on how ripe you pick the grapes ;-) 16:19:41 <FLHerne> I've had grape juice accidentally ferment in my fridge before...the carton burst in the end, made a sticky mess :P 16:22:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i've had juice ferment outside the fridge... but IN the fridge? how many years did it stand there?! 16:24:36 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 16:26:18 <supermop> well lager yeast could work at fridge temperature 16:26:35 <supermop> not sure i'd want a fruit just fermented with them though 16:26:44 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-129-125-202.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 16:29:13 <NGC3982> FLHerne: oh fod.. 16:29:29 <NGC3982> or god.. 16:29:42 *** Chris_Booth is now known as Guest1087 16:29:47 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-35-89.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 16:30:08 *** ffpp [~me@dslb-188-097-244-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 16:30:50 <FLHerne> how many years did it stand there?! Not that long actually. The fridge is a bit unreliable though...# 16:31:51 <ffpp> does anybody else think that it would be very helpful to have additional information on cargo you deliver in the game ? like average travel time on a given multi-hop route or something like this 16:32:25 <NGC3982> how can cargo affect average travel time? 16:33:00 <ffpp> not because it affects it, just to see how long it takes for it to travel 16:33:09 <NGC3982> i see. 16:33:44 <ffpp> in large networks where cargo has to take many hops, I find it often difficult to judge which routes lack efficiency 16:34:21 <ffpp> vehicle income and profit is always skewed by transfer vs. final income percentages 16:34:42 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-35-89.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120411064248]] 16:35:20 *** Guest1087 [~chatzilla@host81-129-125-202.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:44:37 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 16:48:06 <FLHerne> stupid plasma-desktop 16:49:13 <Terkhen> too hot? 16:50:45 <FLHerne> I try to move one icon, and then the whole thing goes berserk again :@ 16:54:04 <supermop> yeah don't touch a plasma 16:54:19 <supermop> im sure it will ionize your skin 16:55:31 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 16:55:35 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 16:57:22 <supermop> i desperately need to find someone to go with me to the opera tomorrow 16:58:46 <andythenorth> supermop: this may not be the best place to advertise ;) 16:58:53 <andythenorth> unless friend-of-a-friend kicks in ;) 16:59:02 <andythenorth> tried Facebook :o 16:59:14 <andythenorth> Alberth: o/ 16:59:38 <Alberth> hi andy 17:00:32 <supermop> also need someone to go to record store day in my place 17:03:51 *** TWerkhoven2[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:08:04 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd 17:08:33 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-035-157.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 17:10:34 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5153E8CC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 17:10:38 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:11:24 <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1009347#p1009347 17:11:34 <andythenorth> ^ this is happening because I removed some strings for station names? 17:11:39 <andythenorth> thereby breaking savegames? 17:12:06 <andythenorth> hmm 17:12:09 <andythenorth> he's changed the bug report :P 17:14:04 <Alberth> self-solving bug :) 17:14:28 <andythenorth> maybe not 17:14:38 * andythenorth might have broken all savegames 17:14:52 <andythenorth> and in my experience, removing strings causes ottd crashes 17:15:02 <andythenorth> [unreproducibly] 17:15:26 <Alberth> how can you change a newgrf sitting at my harddisk? 17:16:13 <planetmaker> spooky action at the distance, of course! 17:16:49 <Alberth> especially, as it was only virtually at my disk :p 17:17:03 <andythenorth> I can break your game with the aid of bananas :P 17:18:26 <planetmaker> andythenorth: nope. OpenTTD won't update existing savegames 17:18:33 <planetmaker> unless you manually force that 17:19:09 <Eddi|zuHause> in that case, change at least the min-compatible-version 17:19:49 <Eddi|zuHause> btw. openttd should try harder to prevent you from (manually) updating to a not compatible version 17:21:19 <Alberth> nah, you have to be able to shoot yourself in the foot every now and then :p 17:21:42 <Alberth> like I just did, my 'hg fetch' of firs is broken 17:22:04 <andythenorth> so ottd won't update a FIRS 0.7.2 savegame to 0.7.3 ? 17:22:10 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: how should it do that? 17:22:15 * andythenorth never plays the game so doesn't pay attention 17:22:36 <planetmaker> doesn't it prevent you already quite hard to update to an incompatible one? 17:22:43 <planetmaker> just reload_newgrfs won't do it 17:22:50 <planetmaker> if you overwrite the file 17:22:57 <Alberth> andythenorth: it tries to find an exact match first 17:23:05 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no. i mean if you edit the newgrf config from the gui 17:23:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it curently makes no difference if you change to a compatible or incompatible grf 17:23:35 <planetmaker> on a running game? Why should it? You're then a developer and know what you do 17:23:38 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-035-157.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 17:23:42 <planetmaker> by definition ;-) 17:23:50 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, why would i know that? it doesn't say in the GUI 17:23:53 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has joined #openttd 17:23:53 <andythenorth> so I don't have to leave all the legacy strings in place? 17:24:02 <Wolf01> hello 17:24:22 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: a non-developer can't change it in the GUI 17:24:30 <planetmaker> (on an existing map) 17:24:32 <Alberth> andythenorth: I don't think so, the savegame contains the exact version newgrf that is used, and it will reload that 17:24:32 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but i'm a developer 17:24:36 <planetmaker> exactly 17:24:41 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm talking specifically about me 17:24:44 <Alberth> hello Wolf01 17:24:59 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Make sure to bump the compatible version, and then you can just respond with 'changing NewGRFs in game is not supported'. 17:25:03 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i get no notice whether my replacement now is to a compatible or incompatible version, even though the game could easily test it 17:25:08 <planetmaker> andythenorth: legacy strings are only useful for people who want to update the grf on a running game 17:25:29 <planetmaker> Like you. And maybe a couple of other people 17:25:41 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: perhaps you should protect you from yourself and refrain from using the newgrf dev setting 17:25:43 <planetmaker> "Normal" users don't update NewGRFs on existing maps 17:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that's not the point 17:26:02 <planetmaker> But removing the strings, of course, requires you to up the min_compatible_version, andythenorth 17:26:11 <Alberth> planetmaker: "Normal" devs also don't :) 17:26:15 <andythenorth> hmm 17:26:32 <andythenorth> savegame compatibility is confusing :P 17:27:01 <andythenorth> why do I attempt to preserve compatibility if the game ignores that? 17:27:03 <Alberth> andythenorth: just make every version incompatible with every other version :) 17:27:23 <andythenorth> I try quite hard to not require version bumps, on the basis that it doesn't ruin people's saves 17:27:30 <andythenorth> seems to be incorrect assumption 17:27:43 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5153E8CC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 17:28:07 <Alberth> andythenorth: it only becomes important if I don't have the exact version, I guess 17:28:22 <planetmaker> andythenorth: ^^ 17:28:26 <TWerkhoven> doesnt openttd automatically retrieve old versions (if available on bananas) if a savegame/server requires it? 17:28:32 <planetmaker> (and if the exact version is not on bananas) 17:28:40 <Alberth> which is a non-issue, as every version is at bananas 17:28:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it is important for people who play with nightly versions or who actually DO change newgrfs on their savegames 17:28:57 <Alberth> TWerkhoven not automatically 17:29:30 <Alberth> but you can click 'find missing content' :) 17:29:32 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you might want to do that to do the favour for yourself. To keep your testing savegames 17:29:49 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the game should make it easier for non-developers to "update" (not add) grfs? 17:31:27 * Alberth is not getting within 20 miles from that can of worms 17:32:08 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-35-89.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 17:32:32 <TWerkhoven> well, thats what i meant 17:32:54 *** Biolunar_ [~mahdi@blfd-4db0f49e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 17:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause> well, currently the min-compatible-version has exactly no use 17:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> non-developers can't use it because they can't change newgrfs, and developers can't use it because it's completely hidden from them 17:35:55 <Alberth> so what remains is removing it entirely :p 17:36:06 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:36:34 <andythenorth> I don't really understand the system 17:36:37 <andythenorth> I have grfid 17:36:40 <andythenorth> min-compatible version 17:36:46 <andythenorth> md5 17:36:55 <andythenorth> [shrug] :) 17:37:23 <andythenorth> I understand the core issue, but not the solutions we have 17:37:40 <supermop> i overheard two people on the street last night talking about lawyers using github 17:38:01 <supermop> for domething? i guess drafting documents? 17:38:26 <planetmaker> andythenorth: savegame: grfID + md5sum --> identical file, if accessible 17:39:16 <planetmaker> grfID + version + not matching md5sum --> use the file with the highest rev which still has the min_compatible_version which is lower than version 17:39:43 <planetmaker> will only be used if a newgrf with matching md5sum can't be found nor downloaded 17:39:47 <andythenorth> so...I should leave the legacy strings in? 17:39:48 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4db0f49e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:39:51 <andythenorth> for maximum compatibility 17:39:54 <planetmaker> yes 17:40:03 <andythenorth> I can leave them in english only? 17:40:10 <andythenorth> it might cause bug reports, but not crashes 17:40:20 <planetmaker> Remove all or none IMHO 17:40:25 <andythenorth> hmm 17:40:27 <planetmaker> but not translations only. That sucks 17:40:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24156 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt italian.txt): 17:40:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:40:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 36 changes by telanus 17:40:30 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 12 changes by lorenzodv 17:40:37 <planetmaker> it'll show as untranslated strings, also 17:40:42 <planetmaker> and would be very annoying 17:40:43 <andythenorth> now I have to go and find a changeset and forward merge it somehow :( 17:41:25 <andythenorth> r2734 17:41:31 <andythenorth> and it's a big commit, not atomic :P 17:46:04 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:46:10 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:49:16 *** Miguelzinho [~Miguelzin@201.77.177.82] has joined #openttd 17:50:04 <Alberth> hmm, zou een language file met line wrapping niet veel handiger zijn? 17:50:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that is very borderline amount of english in that line :p 17:51:19 <Alberth> transl: Would'nt a language file with multi-line wrapping be much more usueful? 17:51:35 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I realized that too 30 seconds after entering it :p 17:54:16 <telanus> andythenorth: is there an afrikaans translation of FIRS? 17:55:26 <andythenorth> telanus: dunno 17:55:29 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:55:31 <planetmaker> telanus: not currently. But you're certainly free to provide it 17:55:51 <andythenorth> Alberth: wrapping lang files :o 17:55:53 <andythenorth> imagine :P 17:56:01 <andythenorth> freedom from horizontal scrolling :P 17:56:55 <planetmaker> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/nightlies/LATEST/log/ <-- see there, telanus. And get the language files from http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/show/lang 17:57:17 * andythenorth bumps the savegame 17:57:25 * Alberth bumps andy 17:58:21 <andythenorth> I need a commit prefix for 'broke your savegames' :P 17:58:34 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 18:00:31 <Alberth> -Change: Let's not support old games any more. 18:00:48 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 18:02:46 <andythenorth> yeah that's roughly what I chose :P 18:03:27 <telanus> Thank Planetmaker 18:03:44 <andythenorth> "Change: broke all your savegames because I can't be bothered to diff a changeset" :P 18:05:25 <Alberth> :) 18:07:08 *** ffpp [~me@dslb-188-097-244-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: ffpp] 18:07:24 * andythenorth wonders what he started with this FIRS US / Brit English thing 18:10:05 <Alberth> 'prevent opening' <-- what string is used for that text? 18:10:31 <Alberth> nvm 18:14:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: US and GB english have two different language IDs, so you can offer both 18:15:29 <andythenorth> I know :) 18:15:39 <andythenorth> but all the rivet counters have popped up with opinions :) 18:16:01 <andythenorth> is there a language ID for 'northish'? 18:16:53 <Alberth> or 'pirate language'? :) 18:17:02 <andythenorth> bork bork bork 18:17:09 <andythenorth> google has a number of silly languages 18:18:36 <FLHerne> andythenorth: US v UK English is because there are differences :P 18:19:20 <FLHerne> And people sometimes find it irritating when the 'wrong' spelling/name is used 18:20:18 *** snack23 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 18:21:58 <Alberth> indeed, pirate language should be default!! :p 18:23:12 <andythenorth> um 18:23:12 <andythenorth> yeah 18:23:12 <andythenorth> I've been through that debate ;) 18:23:12 <andythenorth> I've made the set mostly US, it irritates people 18:23:12 <andythenorth> [shrug] 18:23:18 *** ctibor [~ctibor@77.48.229.61] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:24 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-32.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:23:32 *** ctibor [~ctibor@77.48.229.61] has joined #openttd 18:24:05 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You did, yes. It irritates me sometimes :P 18:24:28 <Alberth> FLHerne: make a better industry newgrf 18:24:52 <planetmaker> nah, just help PaulC sort out the differences BE / AE / AU :-) 18:25:00 *** th_gergo [~thiering@2E6B2A8B.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd 18:25:11 <andythenorth> declare yourself your own language 18:27:27 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:27:33 * andythenorth can't make FIRS tickets be 'fewer' 18:27:38 <andythenorth> I close one, write 4 more :P 18:28:15 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590feded.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:28:42 <andythenorth> so how do I add new translations? 18:28:53 <planetmaker> to FIRS? 18:28:55 <andythenorth> yes 18:28:59 <planetmaker> Just copy the lng file to the folder 18:29:01 <planetmaker> add it. 18:29:03 <planetmaker> commit 18:29:04 <planetmaker> done 18:29:08 <andythenorth> I don't need to do any quality control? 18:29:14 <planetmaker> make sure the language header is right 18:29:23 <planetmaker> well. sure. You should test it for sanity 18:29:46 <planetmaker> i.e. become a native speaker of that language and start the game with it :-) 18:30:00 <planetmaker> you may skip the pre-requisit with knowledge of the language ;-) 18:30:08 <planetmaker> but not the deduction :-P 18:30:23 * andythenorth envisages someone trolling the grf with lots of 'your mum' jokes instead of industry names :P 18:30:33 <planetmaker> lol :-) 18:31:02 <andythenorth> we're very trusting about all this code we share around freely :P 18:31:14 <andythenorth> I'll compile e.g. patches without reading them 18:31:50 <andythenorth> be trivial to do something like a makefile attack with rm * -r 18:31:54 <andythenorth> I'd run it :P 18:32:00 <planetmaker> who says that they're not read? 18:32:47 <andythenorth> I don't read things I apply ;) 18:32:54 <andythenorth> I just curl and patch :P 18:34:09 * Alberth check whether he can add his trollings into the FIRS repo 18:35:08 <andythenorth> hmm 18:35:12 <andythenorth> italian doesn't compile 18:35:22 <andythenorth> @seen Snail 18:35:22 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: I have not seen Snail. 18:35:27 <andythenorth> @seen snail 18:35:27 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: I have not seen snail. 18:35:29 <andythenorth> meh 18:35:51 <andythenorth> issues with plurals 18:36:28 <Alberth> updated 18:36:44 <Alberth> @seen snails 18:36:44 <DorpsGek> Alberth: I have not seen snails. 18:37:09 <andythenorth> why would my shell crash :P How silly 18:37:57 <Alberth> it shouldn't :) 18:38:17 <andythenorth> stupid mac 18:38:40 <FLHerne> http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php :P 18:39:19 <CornishPasty> FLHerne: wat? 18:39:24 <FLHerne> Linux on Apple hardware - Apple build quality, Linux not-awful-ness :D 18:39:26 <andythenorth> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1335/ 18:39:36 <andythenorth> one day Linux will be done 18:39:40 <CornishPasty> My mac works just fine on OS X 18:39:47 <andythenorth> the problem with OS X is, it's done, but is being undone 18:39:53 <CornishPasty> Hmm, true 18:39:57 <CornishPasty> Feature creep 18:39:57 * andythenorth has become a conservative crusty in his old age 18:40:03 <FLHerne> My macs work just fine on Linux :D 18:40:07 <andythenorth> Feature uncreep :P 18:40:30 <CornishPasty> 2154 is the year of Linux on the desktop 18:41:09 <Alberth> andythenorth: mine builds ok, but I didn't clean it first 18:41:31 <Alberth> CornishPasty: yes, at the two desktops that still exist then :p 18:41:40 <CornishPasty> EXACTLY! 18:41:42 <FLHerne> CornishPasty: 2012 is :P 18:41:42 <andythenorth> Alberth: your copy of snail's translation? or your translation? 18:41:48 <CornishPasty> FLHerne: lolrofl 18:41:56 <Alberth> andythenorth: firs trunk 18:42:04 <andythenorth> k 18:42:10 <andythenorth> I didn't commit italian yet 18:42:14 <andythenorth> as it's broken :( 18:42:34 <FLHerne> Linux derivatives are already the dominant OS on smartphones; soon will be on tablets 18:42:49 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-35-89.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:43:16 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 18:45:59 <andythenorth> I have no idea how to fix plurals, esp. for a language I can't read :) 18:46:00 <CornishPasty> They're the dominant OS on smartphones because Android is the new Symbian 18:46:21 *** krinn [~krinn@114.54.71.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 18:46:28 <andythenorth> Android is, according to my friends who have to develop for it, a low-quality raging mess 18:46:36 <krinn> hi all 18:46:51 <andythenorth> whereas iOS is a relatively stable predictable environment 18:47:00 *** KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-245-152.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 18:47:07 <andythenorth> except that Apple will shaft you at any point with an update that breaks your app 18:47:31 <CornishPasty> Or by not allowing your app onto the app store for <insert arbitrary reason> 18:47:52 <andythenorth> at least there are only 2 predictable problems 18:47:53 <andythenorth> w 18:48:07 <andythenorth> whereas some of them now have over 1,000 variants to QA for 18:48:14 <andythenorth> which is obviously impossible :P 18:49:05 <krinn> querying if (!vehlist.IsEmpty()) print("aircraft="+cEngine.GetName(vehlist.Begin())+" r_dist="+distance+" e_dist="+AIEngine.GetMaximumOrderDistance(vehlist.Begin())); <<<-- i get e_dist=495616 for name=Douglas DC-8 so... bug ? 18:49:16 <Eddi|zuHause> "it's stable. except when they break it on purpose" 18:49:32 <andythenorth> yeah 18:49:39 <andythenorth> that 18:49:46 <andythenorth> rock, hard place 18:49:48 <krinn> thru gui this model is set to 704 cases 18:50:17 <planetmaker> @calc 704**2 18:50:17 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 495616 18:50:21 <planetmaker> get it? :-) 18:50:26 <krinn> :) 18:51:02 <krinn> yep easy like that 18:52:37 <krinn> just it's more than origin->target as this is a full go and back 18:52:46 <andythenorth> ach 18:52:57 <andythenorth> if I'm breaking savegames, 0.8.0 makes more sense than 0.7.3 18:54:23 <krinn> planetmaker, i now understand what you mean with the a->b->c trouble that a->c is too far 18:54:36 <planetmaker> :-) 18:54:49 *** oskari892 [~oskari89@213-186-253-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 18:55:01 <krinn> but this is awful, this then not limit aircraft distance, this limit aircraft usage 18:55:10 *** telanus1 [~Barney_Er@196.215.173.27] has joined #openttd 18:55:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth: not necessarily 18:55:20 <planetmaker> I'd do versions by features 18:55:27 <andythenorth> really? 18:55:28 <andythenorth> ok 18:55:34 *** telanus [~Barney_Er@196.215.173.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:55:36 <planetmaker> depends on how you want to do it 18:55:49 <andythenorth> I'm kind of easy, but I'd expect 0.x.y to be compatible with other 0.x 18:55:50 <planetmaker> you could just break things in trunk and not do it in 0.7 branch 18:55:52 <planetmaker> is it used? 18:56:00 <planetmaker> I'd expect that, too :-P 18:56:06 <andythenorth> no branches are in use afaik 18:56:17 <andythenorth> except default 18:56:35 <andythenorth> so 0.7.3 or 0.8.0? 18:56:39 <andythenorth> I am writing changelog now 18:57:07 <planetmaker> so what's new compared to 0.7.2? 18:57:17 <planetmaker> I'd think not much? 18:57:22 *** oskari89 [~oskari89@213-186-253-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:57:30 <andythenorth> not much 18:57:31 <krinn> planetmaker, just to make it clear : having an aircraft range of 10 cases, i suppose i could jump from airport to airport if they are within limit of 10, but will in fact fail at the 3rd airport because total range would be 20, outside the aircraft range 18:57:51 <planetmaker> krinn: yes. 18:58:01 <planetmaker> unless you make orders to fly back the same way 18:58:07 <krinn> so it's not a distance limit, it's a usage limit: i could only use 2 airports 18:58:21 <planetmaker> no, it's not 18:58:48 <planetmaker> if your airports have a mutual distance of 15 in a triangle, you'll have no issue with a plane range of 20 18:58:54 <krinn> oh i get it, your explain, i have take as a->b->c a-c fail when in fact c->a might fail 18:59:06 <planetmaker> but if they're in a line, the distance c->a is 30, thus 20 will not suffice 18:59:12 <planetmaker> yes 18:59:37 <andythenorth> 0.7.3 smells better :P 18:59:43 <andythenorth> or 0.7.5 18:59:50 <planetmaker> nah, 0.7.3 19:00:05 <krinn> planetmaker, i won't as i have already spent all my amount of time to cry yesterday, else i would again ! 19:01:27 <planetmaker> krinn: it's not hard to also check distance of last order -> first order, is it? 19:01:47 <planetmaker> it's a ring anyway 19:01:47 <krinn> no, it's easy 19:02:29 <andythenorth> for i in orders 19:02:33 <krinn> does openttd take 495616 or the 704 as a->b check ? 19:02:44 <andythenorth> if i.delta > foo, raise :P 19:03:30 <krinn> andythenorth, except if i.delta < foo because foo= foo**2 :) 19:04:35 <andythenorth> sounds fun :P 19:04:56 <krinn> sounds only :) 19:05:28 <frosch123> krinn: both AIOrder::GetOrderDistance and AIEngine::GetMaximumOrderDistance() return squared euclidian distance 19:05:38 <frosch123> so, you can compare them without any conversion 19:05:54 <krinn> except i'm not comparing them 19:06:03 <frosch123> (for aircraft; for ships it is actually manhattan distance) 19:06:19 <krinn> as i compare the max distance an aircraft could do vs my manhattan distance from airport a to b 19:07:43 *** roadt__ [~roadt@60.168.94.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:07:46 <planetmaker> still, easier to compare squares 19:07:54 <frosch123> use AITile::GetDistanceSquareToTile then :) 19:08:11 <frosch123> but, granted, we should document the unit of those vehicle/order distance functions 19:08:44 <krinn> yep, my fisrt thinking as you see would be compare ab bc ca and not check abc 19:09:05 <krinn> hmmm i mean abca 19:09:57 *** flaa [~flaa@089-101-093077.ntlworld.ie] has joined #openttd 19:13:52 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 19:17:50 <NGC3982> someone said rusty 19:19:02 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 19:21:53 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 19:23:42 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 19:27:19 <Alberth> I have not seen someone for a long time 19:27:37 <TrueBrain> I have seen many people not for a long time 19:31:15 <michi_cc> krinn: Always use AIOrder::GetOrderDistance to query the distance.You can pass tiles that either are part of a station or are not, it will automatically calculate the right thing. 19:32:09 <krinn> you can solve the problem in two ways: force a bad distance and check AIOrder validity next. Or check the distance and not force AIOrder as you already know the distance will be reject 19:32:14 <krinn> i'm trying the 2nd way 19:32:58 <krinn> because the 1st one is rought, while the 2nd way allow me to pickup an aircraft that will indeed be able to travel that distance 19:32:59 <michi_cc> AIOrder::GetOrderDistance does not depend on the actual orders of any vehicle. You pass two tiles to it. 19:34:12 <krinn> 2s, checking it 19:34:44 <michi_cc> AIEngine::GetMaximumOrderDistance and AIOrder::GetOrderDistance complement each other, and you can always use > or < on the returned values without knowing if it is square, manhatten or whatever that is applicable for the vehicle type. 19:35:52 <TrueBrain> its like someone thought about it when designing it :D (wasnt me, thats for sure; I dont think things through in general :D) 19:35:58 <krinn> well, except i need to know the two points, while knowing the distance is easy 19:36:18 <krinn> eheh i know this might looks weird at first ok 19:36:34 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:36:42 <TrueBrain> your loking for a place to put your second <whatever> down? 19:36:48 <michi_cc> How do you build an airport at the destination without knowing a tile? :) 19:37:34 <michi_cc> But if you really want to emulate it, for aircraft the distance is the squared distance between the northern tile of each airport. 19:37:41 <krinn> that's that, i don't have the airport, it's just to handle the engine, so the X & Y aren't important and not pass, only x->y is useful 19:38:16 <krinn> but the solve appears easy, just compare distance**2 and i'm done 19:40:00 <michi_cc> Anyway, only AIOrder::GetOrderDistance is guaranteed to have the right result of something changes in the future, for anything else you have to watch out yourself. 19:40:24 <frosch123> "I personally prefer FIRS, but that's mainly because it only takes 1 GRF slot while ECS can take up to 7, and the total number of GRFs one can load at once is rather limited." <- haha 19:41:08 <krinn> well, i'm not making magic there, and i don't really see why only the AIOrder::GetOrderDistance is guaranteed vs the MaxOrderDistance michi_cc 19:41:26 <Terkhen> we need 255 NewGRFs per game :P 19:41:37 <krinn> vehlist.Valuate(AIEngine.GetMaximumOrderDistance); + vehlist.KeepValue(distance*distance) 19:42:01 <frosch123> Terkhen: yup, and 256 cargos with 512 industry types or so 19:42:28 <Terkhen> I agree, otherwise the game feels unnecessarily limited 19:42:31 <krinn> but we certainly need more than just 1 nogo... 19:42:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you load single-aircraft and single-object grfs, plus every station set out there, you really get to the limit fast 19:44:07 <krinn> if you think about all nogo scripts as "funny script", 1 is enough, you run that mode or that mode of playing, but if you think of nogo helper script, 1 is clearly too limited 19:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: the script author can load use the other scripts as modules 19:45:31 <glx> it's a goal script, not a helper script 19:46:12 <krinn> well, nogo helper script could do wonder, even better than some newgrf as it leave a chance for AI to speak with a NOGO script, while newGRF don't 19:47:15 <krinn> I've seen Eddi|zuHause speak in forum with someone (wow him again!) about newGRF limit per aircraft type, a newGRF that will do that will broke all AI, a NOGO script can do that easy and can speak to AI to tell them what are the limits 19:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> *hÌstel* callback 18! 19:47:32 *** SilPho [~silpho@109.224.143.169] has joined #openttd 19:47:49 <frosch123> krinn: i don't understand your latest question about GetTownAuthority. that functions doe not return a bool 19:48:41 <krinn> frosch123, ah yes my bad, but the it return the townID, and the bool in my mind was compare result vs your check town :/ 19:49:15 <SilPho> Not sure if this is a bug on my end or a general bug: Buying land doesn't seem to have a cost. Only the cost of bulldozing. Is that right? 19:49:16 <frosch123> still i don't get your question. are there maybe some negations too few or too many? 19:49:30 <krinn> frosch123, i'll try to make myself clearer 19:49:53 <frosch123> maybe you have an example ai :) 19:50:00 <krinn> frosch123, i wish find a tile that townX handle, so if i build my airport at that tile i then must get sure townX own the airport 19:50:14 <krinn> frosch123, plenty, any AI using airport get the problem 19:50:41 <frosch123> why do you actually want to find a tile within the authority of a town? 19:50:53 <frosch123> i could understand the reverse, but not this way 19:51:04 <krinn> because i just want build an airport for townX and not for townY 19:51:14 <krinn> this cause a lot of trouble else 19:51:38 <frosch123> but townauthority is about town rating 19:51:44 <frosch123> not about "belonging to a town" 19:51:56 <Eddi|zuHause> so you want to valuate a tile list by which town a station would get 19:52:08 <krinn> then that's what i'm seeking, a belonging to a town 19:52:25 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, yes, just that, but this is impossible to get 19:52:28 <Rubidium> SilPho: that sounds about right 19:52:30 <Eddi|zuHause> make a delaunay triangulation :) 19:52:46 <frosch123> you can use GetClosestTown 19:52:50 <Eddi|zuHause> (i have code :)) 19:52:52 <krinn> doesn't work frosch123 19:52:54 <frosch123> that will tell you the name which the station will have 19:53:12 <Eddi|zuHause> (it isn't quite up to date though) 19:53:15 <frosch123> well, i have no idea what you want then :) 19:54:02 <SilPho> Rubidium: Really? Just seems strange that you can "buy" bulldozed land for free 19:54:25 <krinn> frosch123, i just want build an airport in a town, and make sure it will belong and be handle by that town 19:55:01 <krinn> that's seem so easy, but in fact, anything i have try end with a "could chance it work" 19:55:06 <frosch123> what do you mean with "belong" and "handle"? 19:55:51 <krinn> i mean says townX: when built the airport should affect townX 19:56:09 <frosch123> affect what? 19:56:28 <krinn> town and station affect each over you know :) 19:56:32 <Rubidium> SilPho: buying land is a nuisance anyway 19:56:58 <krinn> airport affect noise and rating in the town 19:56:58 <frosch123> krinn: you are asking way to broad. i have no idea what kind of affection you mean 19:57:10 <frosch123> ah, so you want to know about noise 19:57:27 <krinn> :( 19:57:27 <SilPho> Rubidium: For the buyer or for other players? 19:57:52 <krinn> i know that already frosch123 19:58:02 <Rubidium> everyone (for other reasons) 19:58:17 <frosch123> ... what? 19:58:21 <krinn> frosch123, you never build an airport for townX that was in fact affecting townY ??? 19:58:41 <frosch123> again... affect what? 19:58:55 <frosch123> an airport affects a town in about a dozen ways 19:58:56 <SilPho> Rubidium: I guess I'm not really disputing that, but I'm sure there used to be a cost for it. Maybe it was intentionally removed 19:59:04 <frosch123> iirc noise even affects multiple towns, not a single one 19:59:17 <krinn> frosch123, in all the ways you wish, i don't care the way, i only care WHO it will affect 19:59:31 <frosch123> then your question is ill-formed 19:59:44 <krinn> and you cannot get it, when per example, two towns are close each other, and might share same tile influence 19:59:55 <frosch123> the various effects on towns all have different radii and rules 20:00:52 <krinn> ok let me try the other way, think about an AI 20:01:39 <krinn> you check AITile.IsWithinTownInfluence for townX 20:01:55 <krinn> it take the tile and townID as param 20:02:12 <krinn> you have sometimes return value > 0, mean townX influence that tile ok 20:02:56 <krinn> but if you try to build the airport, you may per example get "Error too many station" or "townY doesn't accept more noise" for that tile 20:03:18 <krinn> see the problem: that tile is influence by townX, but in fact, an airport at that tile will belong to townY 20:03:52 *** th_gergo [~thiering@2E6B2A8B.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:04:06 <krinn> while there's 0 station in townX (to explain the "too many station" error), and townY indeed as too many stations 20:06:14 <frosch123> so, about noise: the town affected by building an airport is returned by AIAirport::GetNearestTown. you can check the effect using GetNoiseLevelIncrease and GetAllowedNoise 20:06:30 <frosch123> wrt. town rating, the town being asked is returned by GetTownAuthority 20:07:02 <frosch123> and AIAirport::GetNearestTown may indeed return a different town than GetTownAuthority or GetClosestTown 20:07:17 <krinn> please look at the airport sample in the screenshot in the bug report, you might understand better visually see it 20:07:29 <frosch123> no 20:07:51 <frosch123> your screenshot does not help me about understanding what you actually want 20:08:04 <frosch123> you now asked me twice about town noise, which i answered 20:08:18 <krinn> i told you twice i know how to handle noise 20:08:20 <frosch123> if you want to know some other town effect you have to ask a proper question 20:08:39 <frosch123> there is no such thing as "airport belongs to town" 20:08:45 <frosch123> it is different for each effect 20:09:01 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe that is already the biggest bug 20:09:40 <krinn> that's it Eddi|zuHause, as is, i endup trying to build two airports in the same town because openttd mistake me about the tile owner 20:10:20 <krinn> i cannot get a valid answer from GetTownInfluence, nor from GetTownAuthority, nor from GetClosestTown! 20:10:21 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: so you only care about which label the station will get? 20:10:45 <krinn> yes! as this really mean that town will handle that station 20:10:59 <frosch123> nope :p 20:11:13 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:11:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that would mean GetClosestTown should handle it 20:11:26 <Rhamphoryncus> SilPho: think of it this way: bulldozing itself buys, but unless you plant a sign you soon abandon it 20:11:27 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, it doesn't :( 20:11:41 <frosch123> krinn: because your assumptions are wrong 20:11:49 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, you sometimes have a small town next to a big town that have expand close to it 20:11:58 <frosch123> GetClosestTown is the correct answer wrt. name in the station sign 20:12:06 <frosch123> but it is not the correct answer for noise 20:12:21 <SilPho> Rhamphoryncus: I could think of it that way, I'm just wondering if this is desired behaviour. The wiki seems to disagree 20:12:49 <Rhamphoryncus> SilPho: I can think of behaviour I'd like better, but this isn't a bug, no 20:12:51 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: which effect is wrong when you rely on GetClosestTown? 20:13:06 <SilPho> Rhamphoryncus: Fair enough. Thanks :) 20:13:14 <Rhamphoryncus> np :) 20:14:22 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, all effects that influence a town: if you remove something there, townY will get crazy, while you are handling townX, same, you have check noise for townX, but anytime you try build it there, townY keep yelling it doesn't want more noise... 20:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: so you need to loop over all tiles of the station layout? 20:15:32 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no, he just has to use two functions 20:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause> ... 20:16:23 <frosch123> GetClosestTown and AIAirport::GetNearestTown are two functions he wants 20:16:40 <krinn> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5161/getfile/8302/authority.png look at this screenshot Eddi|zuHause 20:17:12 <krinn> see the airport, it's name is Chateauroux Est while i was expecting build one for Babyonne (all the 2 are influence tile found for bayonne) 20:17:37 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: so which function did you use there? 20:18:15 <krinn> 2: all 2 are influence over bayonne, all 3 in the screenshot are town authority for over bayonne 20:18:24 <krinn> as you see the 3 are only a few 20:18:52 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, town authority is smaller than the town for very large cities 20:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> as it does not grow with city size 20:19:04 <frosch123> krinn: your screenshot lacks GetClosestTown 20:19:47 <krinn> yes frosch123 20:20:01 <Rhamphoryncus> So what you want is one that incorporates the rings? 20:20:29 <krinn> a way to find a tile in that ring that really belong to the target town and not another town ! 20:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: if you didn't use GetClosestTown, then why do you think it is wrong? 20:20:56 <krinn> because i have test it already, and it fail too 20:21:10 <krinn> getclosesttown could tell you the closest town is X while you will have airport build for Y 20:21:49 <Rhamphoryncus> Conceptually, take the distance for each town, subtract the size from the largest ring from each, then take whichever is closest. Note that the distance may be negative 20:22:12 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: like frosch123 said. GetClosestTown will tell you which name it will get, Airport::GetNearestTown will tell you which noise is affected 20:22:43 <andythenorth> anyone want to build FIRS 0.7.3 and tell me the md5? 20:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: so you need to check both to get the "right" airport 20:24:03 <andythenorth> I have 01a3ed84fc554101c44cc5de1a4f7956 20:24:08 <krinn> I can limit it by checking them both, but still both can mistake 20:25:38 <andythenorth> bah 20:25:46 <andythenorth> md5s don't match the bundle server 20:25:50 <andythenorth> again :( 20:25:53 *** Miguelzinho [~Miguelzin@201.77.177.82] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:26:07 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 20:26:09 <drac_boy> hi 20:27:33 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-35-89.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 20:27:43 <andythenorth> why so many md5s? 20:28:09 <andythenorth> if I use grfid -m I get one md5 20:28:19 <andythenorth> make bundle_zip has written a different md5 20:28:25 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-121-60.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 20:28:27 <andythenorth> and the bundle server has yet another 20:29:01 <drac_boy> andythenorth I dunno what to tell you, I have *never* ever used these ever :-/ sorry 20:29:11 <andythenorth> I can't release while they're different 20:29:21 <andythenorth> as it tells me the grf is broken 20:29:26 <andythenorth> how / why I have no idea 20:29:28 <andythenorth> :( 20:30:04 <andythenorth> frosch123: would you mind md5-ing FIRS 0.7.3? 20:31:18 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: I'll do it 20:31:31 <andythenorth> ta 20:31:41 <frosch123> i am already building :) 20:31:51 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm doing a fresh clone 20:32:32 <andythenorth> 2 data points :) 20:33:03 <frosch123> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1337/ 20:33:14 <Rhamphoryncus> unrelated: how much of firs' design is dictated by the 3 in/2 out limit for industries? 20:35:05 <Rhamphoryncus> Where's grfid? 20:35:07 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: quite a lot of it 20:35:23 <frosch123> Rhamphoryncus: grfcodec 20:36:07 <andythenorth> frosch123: so none of my md5s match yours :( 20:36:28 * andythenorth updates nml 20:36:41 <frosch123> oh, i can update nml as well 20:37:24 <frosch123> wow, i was on nml 0.2 branch 20:37:43 <frosch123> hmm, no i was not 20:39:27 <andythenorth> 95bc342fc014a0ce1a91e996cd449f11 matches yours now 20:39:45 <frosch123> no changes for me after nml update 20:39:55 <frosch123> the 2 changesets it pulled did not affect the result 20:40:20 <andythenorth> did for me 20:40:22 <andythenorth> how odd 20:40:26 <andythenorth> anyway, release time 20:40:50 <Rhamphoryncus> Guess I have to update nml too 20:42:17 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 20:42:17 <Rhamphoryncus> I also make sure to make clean every time. FIRS' makefile is not so reliable :/ 20:42:23 <andythenorth> no 20:42:28 <frosch123> Rhamphoryncus: hg purge --all 20:42:34 <andythenorth> I have aliased a 'make clean && make install 20:42:40 <frosch123> but make sure to not have any diffs or similar in the firs directory 20:42:48 <frosch123> it will delete everything not from the repo 20:43:08 <Rhamphoryncus> I do make || make clean when working on firs itself, as that seems to work right. However, this is an update of nmlc 20:43:14 * telanus1 think it's cool 20:43:16 <andythenorth> building without the makefile is often much faster 20:43:47 <Rhamphoryncus> I match now too :D 20:44:11 <Rhamphoryncus> You can build without the makefile? 20:44:18 <telanus1> when I started Afrikaans was 95% translated, now 99.4% translated 20:44:28 <Rhamphoryncus> telanus1: woot :) 20:44:44 <telanus1> just 21 lines, then 100% 20:45:01 <frosch123> quick! add new strings :p 20:45:20 <drac_boy> heh 20:45:30 <telanus1> Then FIRS translation (hopefully) 20:45:39 <Rubidium> Afrikaans used to be 100% translated 20:45:47 *** TWerkhoven2[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: by google translate :) 20:46:29 <telanus1> a lot by google translate 20:47:33 <frosch123> telanus1: do you maybe also speak traditional chinese? 20:47:37 <andythenorth> most of FIRS 0.7.3 is patches by other people :P 20:47:46 * andythenorth has become a patchpack maintainer, not an author :P 20:48:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: or a boss :p 20:48:12 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: you can build without the makefile if you're only updating graphics :P 20:48:17 <frosch123> only holding a speech when it is done 20:48:18 <andythenorth> using grfcodec 20:48:22 <andythenorth> it's *way* faster 20:48:28 *** oskari892 [~oskari89@213-186-253-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 20:48:37 <andythenorth> 1.7s 20:48:41 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: That's what happens when you have a good quality, interesting project that's open to outside help :) 20:48:50 <Rhamphoryncus> ah, never done graphics 20:49:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but if you stopped using "make clean", the makefile would figure out that you're only doing graphics, and only call grfcodec 20:50:12 <andythenorth> yeah 20:50:25 <andythenorth> but I have to use make clean because the dep check doesn't work reliably 20:50:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you're doing it wrong then 20:51:04 <andythenorth> I have to do a mental dep check instead "what did I change" 20:51:11 <telanus1> frosch123: I only speak Afrikaans & English, and understand Dutch 90% of the time, and able to read very-basic german 20:51:18 *** th_gergo [~thiering@2E6B2A8B.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd 20:52:11 <frosch123> well, traditional chinese would have been 94.1 % :) 20:53:05 <frosch123> maybe ottd was banned from the chinese web 20:53:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure it was due to the controverse copyright :p 20:55:18 <frosch123> too sad that we cannot reach 1/3 of the earth population because the marathi translation is incomplete 20:55:59 <frosch123> hmm, maybe i should suggest that in the "marketing"-topic 20:56:11 <Rubidium> frosch123: interestingly Traditional Chinese has zh_TW 20:56:24 <frosch123> oh, did i confuse them? 20:56:32 <frosch123> i though simplified was TW 20:56:38 <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm. This map will be very profitable once setup.. industries are scattered quite well. Unfortunately starting is looking almost impossible ;) 20:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: i've had that problem with YACD... it's really only sensible to start with passengers. 20:58:05 <Rhamphoryncus> What YACD? XD 20:58:13 <Rhamphoryncus> This is a 512x512 with 5 towns 20:58:54 <andythenorth> does YACD build against trunk currently? 20:59:43 <Rubidium> andythenorth: ofcourse it does 20:59:58 * andythenorth hasn't tried for some time :P 21:00:11 <Rubidium> ... for the right revisions of trunk 21:00:25 <frosch123> andythenorth: you should ask on the forums whether someone can build 1.2+yacd for you :p 21:00:46 <Rubidium> frosch123: that's easy 21:01:17 <frosch123> :p 21:01:44 <andythenorth> does YACD build against trunk tip *right now* ? :P 21:01:46 <frosch123> sounds like you applied distributive law 21:01:53 <frosch123> +the 21:02:18 <Rubidium> after all, the last version of YACD was against 1.2.0.22532 (or something similar) 21:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause> didn't someone do an update? 21:04:08 <krinn> ah i found why i get mad with it, i remember now, basically any town north another town invalidate mostly all tiles within both town if you check getclosesttown, because the station sign is north too 21:05:10 * andythenorth ponders a python conversion of FIRS 21:05:16 <krinn> that's game mechanic liimit 21:05:32 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: how much could be converted? 21:05:39 <andythenorth> tradeoff: codebase I don't understand (current), but others do (but are busy) 21:05:47 <andythenorth> versus: codebase *only* I understand :P 21:06:27 <supermop> how can a newgrf be written in python? 21:06:29 <Rhamphoryncus> But most of it would still be in nml? 21:06:33 <andythenorth> absolutely 21:06:37 <Terkhen> with lot sof workarounds, probably :P 21:06:39 <Terkhen> lots of* 21:06:53 <Rhamphoryncus> So you'd be replacing the CPP with python? 21:06:56 <andythenorth> yes 21:07:04 <krinn> andythenorth, do it in squirrel, you will love other newGRF doing crazy things you cannot see :) 21:07:11 <Rhamphoryncus> With a vague possibility of hacking into nmlc later since it's also written in python.. 21:07:32 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: meh 21:07:34 <andythenorth> not needed 21:07:38 <Rhamphoryncus> very very vague? :) 21:07:53 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 21:08:01 <andythenorth> could be done 21:08:12 <andythenorth> nml modules can be loaded 21:08:18 <andythenorth> CETS does it 21:08:20 <andythenorth> iirc 21:08:23 <Rhamphoryncus> huh 21:08:45 <Rhamphoryncus> The question is if it gains anything, since you're still limited to the underlying newgrf API 21:08:54 <Rhamphoryncus> or VM as I should say 21:08:55 <Zuu> krinn: I hear your pain with airport tiles. I haven't really found the problem that you have, but probably just because I haven't seen it yet. As it should for sure manifest in probably both PAXLink and CluelessPlus. 21:09:35 <andythenorth> I gain code I can work on 21:09:49 <andythenorth> I lose the other developers and/or annoy them :( 21:10:01 <Rhamphoryncus> I should mention that I have LOTS of experience in python 21:10:03 <andythenorth> I also gain a new round of conversion bugs to fix 21:10:35 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: have you looked at how BANDIT works? Or CETS? 21:10:38 <Rhamphoryncus> nope 21:10:42 <andythenorth> both python, both different but viable 21:10:43 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:11:10 <andythenorth> CETS compiles directly, BANDIT uses templating 21:11:13 <krinn> Zuu, the real problem appears with big airports, by this time, places are short, towns are bigger and many town have "shared" influence tiles, once there, the problem get so tied, because town have many stations and refuse your while you have check some other town noise/rating... 21:11:33 * Rhamphoryncus browses bandit 21:11:55 <andythenorth> BANDIT has a main build script that creates first class python objects for each vehicle 21:11:59 <Zuu> krinn: Good news skip the intercontinental as the international is better 21:12:07 <andythenorth> these are then in scope for the templater that writes out nml 21:12:15 * Rhamphoryncus grumbles about dev.openttdcoop.org wanting flash 21:12:45 <krinn> Zuu, well, the size increase chance of failure, but even the smallest one can endup bad 21:13:39 *** SilPho [~silpho@109.224.143.169] has quit [Quit: SilPho] 21:13:45 <Zuu> well, I guess that is the joy of all complexity of OpenTTD :-) 21:14:07 <Zuu> Noone has said that making an AI for OpenTTD is easy. :-) 21:14:15 <krinn> at least, it's game mechanic, something "strong written" 21:14:28 <krinn> not like this newGRF hell :) 21:14:52 <Zuu> heh, though also NoGos currently are a black box to AIs I think. 21:15:20 <krinn> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=59476 look this one, if anyone does this with newGRF, poof, all AI gone mad 21:15:50 <krinn> no Zuu i already think about it ! NoGo can take over an AI, so nogo can "speak" with an AI 21:15:59 <krinn> so the AI will not get blind like with a newGRF 21:16:15 <andythenorth> krinn: you're on a losing battle ;) 21:16:30 <andythenorth> the default approach to features is 'that should be done in newgrf' wherever possible 21:17:03 <andythenorth> so newgrf has an enormous capability to create insanity for AI authors 21:17:06 <krinn> say you make a NoGo script that limit chopper to 20: your AI can put a sign at his HQ, says "nogo chopper" and nogo read it, and alter it to "chopper 20" -> now your AI know chopper limit is set to 20 21:17:17 <Zuu> krinn: Though, I don't know if NoGo know if a given company is an AI. Placing cryptic signs that are part in NoGo<->AI communication for players would be wierd. 21:17:26 <krinn> with newGRF: your AI will get an error after the 20rd choppers without an explain 21:17:56 <krinn> Zuu, nogo doestn't place the sign, the AI place it to query nogo, nogo check it exist and answer 21:18:19 <krinn> nogo and AI can speak, AI & nogo cannot speak with newGRF 21:18:22 <supermop> an unnamed social site i used just made me a moderator without my input.... 21:18:27 <Zuu> yes, with your proposal it is like that. I wrote the message before reading your proposal. 21:18:37 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: I hate to say it but bandit looks inscrutable :( 21:18:49 <andythenorth> which parts did you try to scrute? 21:18:59 <Rhamphoryncus> nml is inscrutable to begin with, and templating just adds more confusion 21:19:07 <supermop> there seems to be some script whereby if you've been around long enough and no one complains about it makes you a moderator? 21:19:10 <krinn> of course the AI need to handle it, but at least, you can (and i would say) easy made it, maybe some better communication could be even made 21:19:42 <krinn> but with newgrf, you cannot even know one is load :) 21:19:48 <Zuu> krinn: For that query system to work, it would help greatly to have a common protocol. 21:19:51 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: templates mostly 21:19:57 <andythenorth> read build_bandit.py 21:20:07 <Zuu> Or AIs would have to try all different hand shaking messages until NoGo responds :-) 21:20:23 <krinn> that's just a standard to set 21:20:36 <andythenorth> specifically the two main Classes 21:20:58 <krinn> but it could be done, that's why nogo & AI can work really good, while nogo & AI cannot with newgrf and are blind 21:21:52 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: that and the cfg are good 21:22:03 <krinn> this is also why i think nogo limit to 1 script will show its limit fast, or we should build one big nogo that could do anything 21:22:11 <andythenorth> newgrf has a defined spec, but no defined ways to use it, so it won't ever be reliable in the way you want 21:22:55 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: truck_template.pynml is straightforward 21:23:15 <andythenorth> specifically the item{} block 21:23:16 <Rhamphoryncus> Yep, that one's good 21:23:17 <krinn> andythenorth, right now, for AI & nogo, it would be like if newGRF have no callback with openttd : blind 21:23:33 <andythenorth> it will stay blind 21:23:47 <andythenorth> there's simply no way to specify what a newgrf is doing reliably 21:23:56 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido] 21:24:18 <andythenorth> you could extend the hinting system and hope authors use it.... 21:24:29 <Zuu> krinn: A such protocol would probably need either to cover all possible NoGo usages, or it could have a rather slim standard behaviour and leave the rest up to the NoGo to define. 21:24:59 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-35-89.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:25:12 <Zuu> Basically there could be "nogo shortname" to get the short name of the NoGo and "nogo version" to get the version and then leave the rest up to the NoGo to decide. 21:25:38 <krinn> Zuu, i was thinking a basic protocol that define how to speak with each other, and a reserved word someone took and we add it as a valid word, a bit like event, if AI doesn't know it, it won't be able to query it anyway 21:26:01 <Zuu> It should then be packed as an AI and GS library :-) 21:26:24 <krinn> Zuu, this would also gave nogo a chance to register who is AI and who is human 21:26:45 <andythenorth> if Newgrf authors could bundle a helper script, then that could interface with AI + NoGo the same way 21:26:46 <andythenorth> :P 21:26:58 <Zuu> Though, only AIs that have the AI beacon active :-) 21:26:59 <krinn> and this could be valuable info for nogo, don't ask human what AI can do, don't ask AI what only human can do 21:27:35 <Zuu> Sounds like an interesting project :-) 21:27:36 <krinn> Zuu, yes of course, but most AI would handle it fast i think, just they would handle more or less fast the new "api" 21:28:04 <krinn> i'm pretty sure anyone would agree to add the "speak" part, specially because we could just made a lib that handle it :) 21:28:35 * andythenorth -> sleep 21:28:39 <andythenorth> good night 21:28:46 <Zuu> night 21:28:51 <krinn> we could try define the easy, register your AI with a nogo script part to see if you wish ? 21:29:01 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 21:29:07 <krinn> and see the number of AI agreeing to handle it 21:29:58 <Zuu> I just scanned the nogo list and though that perhaps add it to the TransportGoal GS for starter. It is a very simple GS that is more a proof of concept than anything. Could be a good start. 21:30:50 <Zuu> An AI aware of it could value cargo capacity of engines higher for example. 21:31:26 <krinn> yep, also make some GS that dosn't ask goal to AI but only human... 21:31:44 <Zuu> One problem I realize, is that it is common for NoGo to put messages to players on the HQ, so probably a different tile has to be used. 21:32:02 <Zuu> One could use (1, 1 + company ID) 21:32:17 <Zuu> Eg, put the signs in a corner of the map 21:32:20 <krinn> well, we could define to put the sign at tile 0 per example, as the sign is per player 21:32:35 <krinn> they don't overlap no ? 21:33:07 <krinn> i mean player 1 build sign at 0, if player2 build one also at 0, you can see one or the other but both exist right ? 21:33:18 <Zuu> Hmm, yes, in plain OpenTTD I think you can put several signs ontop of each other. 21:33:34 <Zuu> Its only in SuperLib where I have tried to work around that and limit it to one sign per tile. 21:33:56 <krinn> and nogo can already knows the owner of the sign, so it should works 21:34:25 <Zuu> So we could put it at tile 0, only thing to watch out for is that depending on some advanced setting the border of the map is reserved for storage. 21:34:35 <Zuu> So using (1, 1) is probably safer. 21:35:01 <Zuu> Though some dev could probably inform us if we use a dangerous tile, and that is easy to tweak. 21:35:39 <krinn> i think as long as the sign are close to an edge it won't disturb too much 21:35:55 <krinn> and the AI/lib should discard it when read 21:36:31 <Zuu> And for those who have a problem with AIs giving "wierd" names to things, there is now a setting to hide competitor signs :-) 21:37:11 <krinn> Ah good, so we could use station names for saving so :) 21:37:24 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:07 <Zuu> hehe, and a NoGo could easily identify AIAI and CluelessPlus based on station names. 21:38:16 <krinn> i also notice the good, remove all sign on AI reload, nice 21:38:42 <krinn> Zuu, well, i have put (dictatorai) in my name for that, i don't think AI should hide their status 21:38:54 <krinn> But i suppose cluelessplus would register itself with nogo :) 21:39:21 <Zuu> Yes, I would update my AIs and NoGos to use this when we have invented the library. :-) 21:39:49 <krinn> sounds a good thing to do 21:40:14 <krinn> the faster it will be done, the faster new nogo script will handle it, AI will follow, i think at good speed 21:40:19 *** telanus1 [~Barney_Er@196.215.173.27] has left #openttd [] 21:40:43 <krinn> specially nogo & AI share their forum 21:41:22 <krinn> once nogo & ai can speak, we could make them yell both at newGRF :) (kidding) 21:41:29 <Zuu> hehe 21:41:46 <Zuu> So, first we need a name :-) 21:42:16 <Zuu> IOLib? 21:42:33 <Zuu> QueryLib 21:42:47 <Zuu> SocialLib? 21:43:07 <Zuu> ANT - Ai Nogo Talk 21:43:15 <krinn> oh i like ANT 21:43:42 <krinn> the idea, each ant work for the group :) 21:43:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's either AI and Goal or NoAI and NoGo 21:43:47 <Zuu> ANSI = Ai Nogo Standard Interface 21:44:08 <krinn> lol you're good at finding name zuu 21:44:08 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Good point 21:44:31 <Zuu> well, andy has set the standards high on that point 21:44:56 <supermop> tag? 21:45:41 <Terkhen> good night 21:45:47 <krinn> night Terkhen 21:46:14 <Zuu> NoCom 21:46:28 <krinn> :) aren't trying to do the opposite 21:46:48 <Zuu> No worse than NoAI :-) 21:46:59 <krinn> ah yes :P 21:48:10 <krinn> ComPro just the short for communcation protocol 21:48:43 *** snack23 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 21:49:03 <Zuu> In the end, I kind of like library names that actually describe what they do :-) 21:49:32 <Zuu> ComPro make me think of HiPro, an interface to program hearing aids. 21:49:39 <krinn> NT (No-aigo talk) 21:49:49 <krinn> if MS don't sue us :) 21:50:59 <krinn> hihi SCP script communication protocol (and people will think they could copy using ssh with nogo/noai) 21:51:11 <Zuu> hehe 21:51:25 <Zuu> I like that one 21:51:38 <krinn> in fact, i like it too, it's simple 21:51:55 <krinn> and script include both nogo & noai 21:52:09 <Zuu> and future additional scripts that might be supported 21:52:31 <krinn> You never know with those mad devs ! 21:52:36 <Zuu> hehe 21:53:28 <Zuu> Though, none of them shown any mad behaviour at the r20k party. 21:54:09 <Eddi|zuHause> not mad behaviour? were you at the same party as me? 21:55:09 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Not mad as in angry. But perhaps mad as in crazy people takling about OpenTTD in a garden all night? :-) 21:56:00 *** Mazur [~mazur@5ED04965.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 21:57:49 <krinn> Zuu, two bytes should be enough for base : one to query/answer, another one for the query itself, and then anything need to feel the needs of the query 21:58:04 *** MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd 21:58:51 <Zuu> krinn: I will not have much time to start coding this weekend, so if you want to start coding this weekend you can do so. 21:59:06 <krinn> i work this weekend 21:59:17 <krinn> but break on monday 21:59:48 <Zuu> Sounds nice with some vacation. 22:00:06 <krinn> but i think i could start this weekend to read nogo API better 22:01:00 <Zuu> A similar libary to what we want to do, but still not really is TileLabels. 22:01:23 <krinn> it's in openttdcoop? 22:02:07 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BCD3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:02:07 <Zuu> It reads all signs at start that match a pattern and store them in memory (and remove the signs from the map). It then provides an interface for the GS to ask for the tile index that has a given name/label. 22:02:11 <Zuu> Yes 22:02:45 <krinn> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ailib-tile 22:02:49 <krinn> this one? 22:02:52 <Zuu> I use it to have signs in the Tutorial save game to declare the location of where the user should build the canal rather than hard coding the tile indices into the NoGo. 22:03:37 <Zuu> No, this one: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/gslibrary-tilelabels 22:04:01 <krinn> oh you made that one 22:04:21 <Zuu> If we write the library for AIs and then just translate it to GS, we can re-use the translation script of SuperLib, though it is not really rocket sciense to translate between NoAI and NoGo. 22:05:22 <Zuu> But that we'll see if it is easiest to use a single code base or two separete code bases. Though I would guess a single code base for both AI and GS will help. 22:05:41 <krinn> i was thinking two would be easier 22:05:57 <krinn> with a shared file that record/define the keywords 22:06:32 <krinn> but we could do one for both yes 22:06:48 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 22:07:14 <Zuu> it needs a script to "bake" the other version, but that is how I do it for SuperLib and it works quite well. 22:07:55 <krinn> so we will do like that, specially that both should shared a lot of code 22:08:05 <Zuu> Though in our case we'll probably want to have at least one source file that is unique for each library defining the specific behaviour of the AI / Goal script edition. 22:08:59 <krinn> maybe, or we could also fake the functions and redefine them 22:09:04 <Zuu> But if you see that it is hard to do and feel like you want to do it the other way, its up to you if you start coding it. :-) 22:10:30 <Zuu> Here you see the nogo_translator.py of SuperLib: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/superlib/repository/entry/nogo_translator.py 22:12:09 <krinn> isn't it easier to just extends the class ? 22:12:55 <krinn> class NCPAccounting extends AIAccounting and another file with extends GSAccounting 22:13:11 <krinn> so we just use any function with NCP in front 22:13:31 <Zuu> You need to substitute the API calls with the other prefix. 22:13:50 <krinn> yes, but we will make the call :) 22:13:52 *** Elu [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 22:14:26 <Zuu> You could of course define APIRoad <- AIRoad etc. for AI and with <- GSRoad for NoGo and load the correct defition depending on scipt type. 22:14:45 <Zuu> However, that pollutes the global scope so it should probably be _SCP_APIRoad or so. 22:15:31 <krinn> yep, but it would be easy, we need just two different files that define the GS or AI extends 22:16:08 <Zuu> Hmm, actually the code that reads/writes signs should probably be different as they need to be different enough as NoGo need to handle companies etc. while AI not. 22:16:24 <Zuu> Lots of possibilities... 22:16:28 <Zuu> :-) 22:16:37 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:16:41 <krinn> this could be easy handle, with default 22:17:09 <Zuu> I trust you to come up with a solution :-) 22:17:47 <krinn> function NCPSign.GetName(SignID, companyID=NCSCompany.COMPANY_SELF) 22:18:23 <krinn> nogo will pass companyID, AI won't and it will be COMPANY_SELF) 22:19:52 *** Elu [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 22:20:15 <Zuu> I think the SCP library should abstract away sign ids etc. and just allow a query interface. So the library will need to adress that the NoGo edition contains a scan-function that probes for incomming messages which will need to loop over all companies. 22:22:04 <Eddi|zuHause> LEX/YACC or FLEX/BISON? 22:22:12 <krinn> ah yes, so both could share the same GetName(SignID) and the nogo part lookup the company itself 22:22:50 <Wolf01> 'night 22:22:51 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:26:13 <Zuu> Both ends might use some sort of callback mechanism to register a function to be called when the Scan method finds a message. This way a NoGo can register queries with a function to call when there is a message. I know some AIs use a callback mechanism. The GS Tutorial have a CodeStep that uses a callback function. But these things are extra when the basic library is there. 22:28:16 <Zuu> For the NoGo-side the callback could return the response. 22:28:28 <Zuu> Then the NoGo will after seting up the library only need to call the Scan function in the main loop and it should be able to handle all registred commands. 22:29:07 <krinn> well, i'm not sure of what you have in mind there 22:29:23 <krinn> the scan function can just trigger some parsing function 22:30:05 <krinn> ah yes, sorry, i see now, yes, a callback so the ai and nogo can directly handle the event 22:31:37 <krinn> you want leave the user to choose himself what name the function will be when trigger 22:33:45 <krinn> ok i'm going bed, the big lines are there, i will think about it this we, and start monday 22:35:35 <krinn> last even it appears good, the gslib-tilelabels doesn't have a license 22:35:35 <Zuu> great, have a good night 22:35:49 <krinn> if we reuse it... 22:36:15 <Zuu> TileLabels should be GPL v2. and I've written all code so it shouldn't be a problem. :-) 22:36:52 <krinn> ok seen, it's in the headers of the files 22:37:10 <Zuu> You can see it here too: http://bananas.openttd.org/en/gslibrary/ 22:37:18 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-125-94.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #openttd 22:37:41 <krinn> ok Zuu night then 22:37:49 *** krinn [~krinn@114.54.71.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 22:39:47 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.114.232.248.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd 22:41:00 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 22:41:33 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:42:57 <frosch123> night 22:43:00 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590feded.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:50:06 * drac_boy is still having a hard time making sense of some of that topic 22:50:09 <drac_boy> maybe its just me -_- 22:52:03 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:55:04 * drac_boy goes back to more sprites work 22:56:22 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 22:59:56 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-32.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 23:01:54 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-89-176-205-158.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 23:08:01 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-32.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:12:06 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-02.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 23:13:30 *** GT [~GT@rt-scb-9f41.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 23:19:48 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 23:21:15 * GT wonders why http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1006438#p1006438 is completely ignored. 23:29:33 * drac_boy has no idea? :) 23:30:53 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-02.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:32:40 <GT> In general, or about this post 23:35:18 <drac_boy> a bit of both maybe, 8bpp here forever :) 23:44:18 *** kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 23:44:22 <Rhamphoryncus> GT: it's a bikeshed argument 23:44:48 <GT> Well, 32bpp can deliver stunning graphics, but 8bpp has its own, nostalgic atmosphere. Everyone is free to choose what he likes best. 23:45:34 <GT> What does a bikeshed argument mean? 23:45:58 <Rhamphoryncus> Google for it, but basically it's an analogy about a bike shed for a nuclear reactor 23:46:33 <Rhamphoryncus> Everybody understands a bikeshed so they all have their 2¢ to put in. Very few understand the nuclear reactor so they all stay quiet 23:46:59 <Rhamphoryncus> Yet the nuclear reactor is extremely important to get right, the bikeshed is harmless 23:48:12 <Rhamphoryncus> In this case everybody can nitpick the art (I can too), but few are capable of actually doing it 23:48:14 <drac_boy> GT I have another reason but I don't know about going into it here tho :p 23:50:51 *** theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:52:33 *** zpmorgan [~zpmorgan@cpe-065-188-165-086.triad.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 23:55:50 <GT> @Rhamphoryncus, I did google for the bikeshed argument, and understand what you mean now. Thanks for your reply, I learned a new expression, and you gave me a new insight, one that I really thought of. Thanks a lot for that. 23:55:59 <Rhamphoryncus> :) 23:56:22 <GT> s/really thought/ really never thought/ 23:56:42 <Rhamphoryncus> I've done it way too much in here, but you often don't see all the bikeshed discussions that come before 23:57:24 <Rhamphoryncus> speaking of 23:58:02 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: do you have any sort of wishlist for 1.3? Stuff you'd like to do, and especially stuff you'd like other people to look into?