Log for #openttd on 20th April 2012:
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00:04:37  <Mazur> morten: Have you looked at /usr/local/bin ?
00:04:48  <Mazur> Oh, he;s already gone.
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04:40:24  <DDR> Heck yeah... random refinery just built up opposite to where I was shipping oil to another refinery, so I switched the truck feeders to that refinery to transfers and now my ships are taking oil both ways for double profit! :D
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04:49:32  <Rhamphoryncus> oh nice
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06:25:05  <Eddi|zuHause> [11. April 2012] [21:35:05] <__ln__> <--
06:27:56  <Rhamphoryncus> Eddi|zuHause: words escape me
06:28:09  <Rhamphoryncus> Well actually, I can think of a few words, but none I want to say ;)
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07:16:06  <Rhamphoryncus> fun fact: evil mode can be cleared by imposing a temporary speed limit
07:16:48  <Rhamphoryncus> This spaces out the trains that aren't there yet, letting the backlog clear and full speed resume
07:17:44  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: haha
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09:35:54  <NGC3982> ah, NGC3982 has some competition.
09:36:32  <NGC3982> NGC4258 (M106) is fantasticly profiled by CXC with the blue x-rays and red IR
09:36:42  <NGC3982>
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10:11:05  <drac_boy> hi
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10:23:36  <planetmaker> @op
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10:37:05  <drac_boy> hi FLHerne :)
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12:53:45  <Ammler> [14:56] <vuntz> grr, tarball is openttd-1.2.0-source.tar.xz (not the usual scheme) <-- just you know, I am not the only guy not liking the uncommon -source
12:54:13  <planetmaker> what is usual? *-src-*
12:54:17  <Ammler> none
12:54:31  <Ammler> the source bundle is usually called package-version.tar.gz
12:56:19  <planetmaker> aha. And how do you distinguish it from a binary package?
12:56:38  <Ammler> the binary package does have a arch in the bundle name
12:56:41  <peter1138> by the lack of a binary indicator
12:57:37  <peter1138> but we've done it this way since forever
12:57:49  <peter1138> don't think it makes a big difference :)
12:58:36  <Ammler> well, it needs custom config
12:59:53  <Ammler> the question is, is more complicated to fix it and so current configs needs to change to default or always need to setup special config for openttd
13:00:05  <peter1138> custom config of what?
13:00:39  <Ammler> to get upstream version
13:00:48  <Ammler> to prepare source bundle
13:00:52  <peter1138> huh?
13:01:10  <peter1138> you're talking about something specific without saying what
13:01:21  <peter1138> i don't require any 'config' to grab the latest source and compile it
13:01:33  <Ammler> e.g on rpm, you need to specify the package name as it is not default
13:02:08  <Ammler> like %setup -n openttd-version-source instead just %setup
13:02:30  <peter1138> once that line is there, how many times do you need to reenter it?
13:03:27  <Ammler> as said, hat is the question, what is easier to change existing configs or keep "wrong config"
13:03:46  <Rienzilla> hmm
13:03:55  <Rienzilla> can a dedicated server go on pause if there's no client connected?
13:03:55  <peter1138> it's not "wrong"
13:03:59  <peter1138> Rienzilla, yes
13:04:08  <Rienzilla> how?
13:04:09  <Ammler> s/wrong/uncommon/
13:04:18  <peter1138> it's not that uncommon either
13:04:33  <peter1138> Rienzilla, check the settings
13:04:41  <Ammler> you know a 2nd project using that uncommon file sheme?
13:08:50  <Rienzilla> ah
13:08:57  <Rienzilla> foudn it
13:08:58  <Rienzilla> thanks
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13:19:24  <blathijs> Ammler: planetmaker: I am also slightly discontent with the -source postfix, FWIW
13:20:04  <blathijs> Though it just means that I manually need enter the package version whenever I import a new OpenTTD version, since git-buildpackages autodetects the version as 1.2.0-source
13:34:23  <Ammler> wow, that is even worse as for us :-)
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13:35:23  <Ammler> well, the lack of customation for such version grep is prove to me that it _is_ uncommon
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13:40:38  <Terkhen> hello
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13:46:05  <blathijs> Ammler: Well, it's not so bad. I can handle a few extra keystrokes every few months, really :-)
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13:53:28  <Ammler> it is less for me, it is just that evryone who setup it needs to customize it
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14:04:26  <blathijs> Ammler: You mean everyone who wants to compile the rpm?
14:05:42  <Eddi|zuHause> more like everyboy who writes a specfile
14:06:29  <Eddi|zuHause> which i don't think happens often... people will just copy an existing one
14:06:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think i fully understood the problem anyway
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14:20:05  <Ammler> blathijs: no, everyone who setup build
14:20:14  <Ammler> or monitoring version change etc,.
14:21:08  <blathijs> Ah, so no big deal
14:22:43  <Ammler> well, if you fix it, it is work for me, but still I would prefer it :-)
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14:59:16  <drac_boy> zzz? heh
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15:29:32  <drac_boy> hmm vineyards or not
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15:57:32  <andythenorth> vineyards
15:57:37  <supermop> yes
15:57:53  <supermop> more alcohol in ottd
15:58:13  <supermop> better throw in poppy fields and marijuana plantations too
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16:01:39  <NGC3982> :D
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16:09:33  <telanus> just making certain: da{P g e} would give me dag and dae depending on singular vs multiple
16:11:09  <glx> yes
16:12:10  <telanus> thank You
16:14:25  <Eddi|zuHause> vineyards produce fruit, not alcohol :)
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16:16:56  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: depends on how ripe you pick the grapes ;-)
16:19:41  <FLHerne> I've had grape juice accidentally ferment in my fridge before...the carton burst in the end, made a sticky mess :P
16:22:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i've had juice ferment outside the fridge... but IN the fridge? how many years did it stand there?!
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16:26:18  <supermop> well lager yeast could work at fridge temperature
16:26:35  <supermop> not sure i'd want a fruit just fermented with them though
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16:29:13  <NGC3982> FLHerne: oh fod..
16:29:29  <NGC3982> or god..
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16:30:50  <FLHerne> how many years did it stand there?! Not that long actually. The fridge is a bit unreliable though...#
16:31:51  <ffpp> does anybody else think that it would be very helpful to have additional information on cargo you deliver in the game ? like average travel time on a given multi-hop route or something like this
16:32:25  <NGC3982> how can cargo affect average travel time?
16:33:00  <ffpp> not because it affects it, just to see how long it takes for it to travel
16:33:09  <NGC3982> i see.
16:33:44  <ffpp> in large networks where cargo has to take many hops, I find it often difficult to judge which routes lack efficiency
16:34:21  <ffpp> vehicle income and profit is always skewed by transfer vs. final income percentages
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16:48:06  <FLHerne> stupid plasma-desktop
16:49:13  <Terkhen> too hot?
16:50:45  <FLHerne> I try to move one icon, and then the whole thing goes berserk again  :@
16:54:04  <supermop> yeah don't touch a plasma
16:54:19  <supermop> im sure it will ionize your skin
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16:57:22  <supermop> i desperately need to find someone to go with me to the opera tomorrow
16:58:46  <andythenorth> supermop: this may not be the best place to advertise ;)
16:58:53  <andythenorth> unless friend-of-a-friend kicks in ;)
16:59:02  <andythenorth> tried Facebook :o
16:59:14  <andythenorth> Alberth: o/
16:59:38  <Alberth> hi andy
17:00:32  <supermop> also need someone to go to record store day in my place
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17:11:24  <andythenorth>
17:11:34  <andythenorth> ^ this is happening because I removed some strings for station names?
17:11:39  <andythenorth> thereby breaking savegames?
17:12:06  <andythenorth> hmm
17:12:09  <andythenorth> he's changed the bug report :P
17:14:04  <Alberth> self-solving bug :)
17:14:28  <andythenorth> maybe not
17:14:38  * andythenorth might have broken all savegames
17:14:52  <andythenorth> and in my experience, removing strings causes ottd crashes
17:15:02  <andythenorth> [unreproducibly]
17:15:26  <Alberth> how can you change a newgrf sitting at my harddisk?
17:16:13  <planetmaker> spooky action at the distance, of course!
17:16:49  <Alberth> especially, as it was only virtually at my disk :p
17:17:03  <andythenorth> I can break your game with the aid of bananas :P
17:18:26  <planetmaker> andythenorth: nope. OpenTTD won't update existing savegames
17:18:33  <planetmaker> unless you manually force that
17:19:09  <Eddi|zuHause> in that case, change at least the min-compatible-version
17:19:49  <Eddi|zuHause> btw. openttd should try harder to prevent you from (manually) updating to a not compatible version
17:21:19  <Alberth> nah, you have to be able to shoot yourself in the foot every now and then :p
17:21:42  <Alberth> like I just did, my 'hg fetch' of firs is broken
17:22:04  <andythenorth> so ottd won't update a FIRS 0.7.2 savegame to 0.7.3 ?
17:22:10  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: how should it do that?
17:22:15  * andythenorth never plays the game so doesn't pay attention
17:22:36  <planetmaker> doesn't it prevent you already quite hard to update to an incompatible one?
17:22:43  <planetmaker> just reload_newgrfs won't do it
17:22:50  <planetmaker> if you overwrite the file
17:22:57  <Alberth> andythenorth: it tries to find an exact match first
17:23:05  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no. i mean if you edit the newgrf config from the gui
17:23:30  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it curently makes no difference if you change to a compatible or incompatible grf
17:23:35  <planetmaker> on a running game? Why should it? You're then a developer and know what you do
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17:23:42  <planetmaker> by definition ;-)
17:23:50  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, why would i know that? it doesn't say in the GUI
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17:23:53  <andythenorth> so I don't have to leave all the legacy strings in place?
17:24:02  <Wolf01> hello
17:24:22  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: a non-developer can't change it in the GUI
17:24:30  <planetmaker> (on an existing map)
17:24:32  <Alberth> andythenorth: I don't think so, the savegame contains the exact version newgrf that is used, and it will reload that
17:24:32  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but i'm a developer
17:24:36  <planetmaker> exactly
17:24:41  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm talking specifically about me
17:24:44  <Alberth> hello Wolf01
17:24:59  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Make sure to bump the compatible version, and then you can just respond with 'changing NewGRFs in game is not supported'.
17:25:03  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i get no notice whether my replacement now is to a compatible or incompatible version, even though the game could easily test it
17:25:08  <planetmaker> andythenorth: legacy strings are only useful for people who want to update the grf on a running game
17:25:29  <planetmaker> Like you. And maybe a couple of other people
17:25:41  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: perhaps you should protect you from yourself and refrain from using the newgrf dev setting
17:25:43  <planetmaker> "Normal" users don't update NewGRFs on existing maps
17:26:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that's not the point
17:26:02  <planetmaker> But removing the strings, of course, requires you to up the min_compatible_version, andythenorth
17:26:11  <Alberth> planetmaker: "Normal" devs also don't :)
17:26:15  <andythenorth> hmm
17:26:32  <andythenorth> savegame compatibility is confusing :P
17:27:01  <andythenorth> why do I attempt to preserve compatibility if the game ignores that?
17:27:03  <Alberth> andythenorth: just make every version incompatible with every other version :)
17:27:23  <andythenorth> I try quite hard to not require version bumps, on the basis that it doesn't ruin people's saves
17:27:30  <andythenorth> seems to be incorrect assumption
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17:28:07  <Alberth> andythenorth: it only becomes important if I don't have the exact version, I guess
17:28:22  <planetmaker> andythenorth: ^^
17:28:26  <TWerkhoven> doesnt openttd automatically retrieve old versions (if available on bananas) if a savegame/server requires it?
17:28:32  <planetmaker> (and if the exact version is not on bananas)
17:28:40  <Alberth> which is a non-issue, as every version is at bananas
17:28:54  <planetmaker> andythenorth: it is important for people who play with nightly versions or who actually DO change newgrfs on their savegames
17:28:57  <Alberth> TWerkhoven not automatically
17:29:30  <Alberth> but you can click 'find missing content' :)
17:29:32  <planetmaker> andythenorth: you might want to do that to do the favour for yourself. To keep your testing savegames
17:29:49  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the game should make it easier for non-developers to "update" (not add) grfs?
17:31:27  * Alberth is not getting within 20 miles from that can of worms
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17:32:32  <TWerkhoven> well, thats what i meant
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17:35:08  <Eddi|zuHause> well, currently the min-compatible-version has exactly no use
17:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> non-developers can't use it because they can't change newgrfs, and developers can't use it because it's completely hidden from them
17:35:55  <Alberth> so what remains is removing it entirely :p
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17:36:34  <andythenorth> I don't really understand the system
17:36:37  <andythenorth> I have grfid
17:36:40  <andythenorth> min-compatible version
17:36:46  <andythenorth> md5
17:36:55  <andythenorth> [shrug] :)
17:37:23  <andythenorth> I understand the core issue, but not the solutions we have
17:37:40  <supermop> i overheard two people on the street last night talking about lawyers using github
17:38:01  <supermop> for domething? i guess drafting documents?
17:38:26  <planetmaker> andythenorth: savegame: grfID + md5sum --> identical file, if accessible
17:39:16  <planetmaker> grfID + version + not matching md5sum --> use the file with the highest rev which still has the min_compatible_version which is lower than version
17:39:43  <planetmaker> will only be used if a newgrf with matching md5sum can't be found nor downloaded
17:39:47  <andythenorth> so...I should leave the legacy strings in?
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17:39:51  <andythenorth> for maximum compatibility
17:39:54  <planetmaker> yes
17:40:03  <andythenorth> I can leave them in english only?
17:40:10  <andythenorth> it might cause bug reports, but not crashes
17:40:20  <planetmaker> Remove all or none IMHO
17:40:25  <andythenorth> hmm
17:40:27  <planetmaker> but not translations only. That sucks
17:40:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24156 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt italian.txt):
17:40:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:40:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 36 changes by telanus
17:40:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 12 changes by lorenzodv
17:40:37  <planetmaker> it'll show as untranslated strings, also
17:40:42  <planetmaker> and would be very annoying
17:40:43  <andythenorth> now I have to go and find a changeset and forward merge it somehow :(
17:41:25  <andythenorth> r2734
17:41:31  <andythenorth> and it's a big commit, not atomic :P
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17:50:04  <Alberth> hmm, zou een language file met line wrapping niet veel handiger zijn?
17:50:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that is very borderline amount of english in that line :p
17:51:19  <Alberth> transl: Would'nt a language file with multi-line wrapping be much more usueful?
17:51:35  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I realized that too 30 seconds after entering it :p
17:54:16  <telanus> andythenorth: is there an afrikaans translation of FIRS?
17:55:26  <andythenorth> telanus: dunno
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17:55:31  <planetmaker> telanus: not currently. But you're certainly free to provide it
17:55:51  <andythenorth> Alberth: wrapping lang files :o
17:55:53  <andythenorth> imagine :P
17:56:01  <andythenorth> freedom from horizontal scrolling :P
17:56:55  <planetmaker> <-- see there, telanus. And get the language files from
17:57:17  * andythenorth bumps the savegame
17:57:25  * Alberth bumps andy
17:58:21  <andythenorth> I need a commit prefix for 'broke your savegames' :P
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18:00:31  <Alberth> -Change: Let's not support old games any more.
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18:02:46  <andythenorth> yeah that's roughly what I chose :P
18:03:27  <telanus> Thank Planetmaker
18:03:44  <andythenorth> "Change: broke all your savegames because I can't be bothered to diff a changeset" :P
18:05:25  <Alberth> :)
18:07:08  *** ffpp [] has quit [Quit: ffpp]
18:07:24  * andythenorth wonders what he started with this FIRS US / Brit English thing
18:10:05  <Alberth> 'prevent opening' <-- what string is used for that text?
18:10:31  <Alberth> nvm
18:14:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: US and GB english have two different language IDs, so you can offer both
18:15:29  <andythenorth> I know :)
18:15:39  <andythenorth> but all the rivet counters have popped up with opinions :)
18:16:01  <andythenorth> is there a language ID for 'northish'?
18:16:53  <Alberth> or 'pirate language'? :)
18:17:02  <andythenorth> bork bork bork
18:17:09  <andythenorth> google has a number of silly languages
18:18:36  <FLHerne> andythenorth: US v UK English is because there are differences :P
18:19:20  <FLHerne> And people sometimes find it irritating when the 'wrong' spelling/name is used
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18:21:58  <Alberth> indeed, pirate language should be default!! :p
18:23:12  <andythenorth> um
18:23:12  <andythenorth> yeah
18:23:12  <andythenorth> I've been through that debate ;)
18:23:12  <andythenorth> I've made the set mostly US, it irritates people
18:23:12  <andythenorth> [shrug]
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18:24:05  <FLHerne> andythenorth: You did, yes. It irritates me sometimes :P
18:24:28  <Alberth> FLHerne: make a better industry newgrf
18:24:52  <planetmaker> nah, just help PaulC sort out the differences BE / AE / AU :-)
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18:25:11  <andythenorth> declare yourself your own language
18:27:27  *** snack2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:27:33  * andythenorth can't make FIRS tickets be 'fewer'
18:27:38  <andythenorth> I close one, write 4 more :P
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18:28:42  <andythenorth> so how do I add new translations?
18:28:53  <planetmaker> to FIRS?
18:28:55  <andythenorth> yes
18:28:59  <planetmaker> Just copy the lng file to the folder
18:29:01  <planetmaker> add it.
18:29:03  <planetmaker> commit
18:29:04  <planetmaker> done
18:29:08  <andythenorth> I don't need to do any quality control?
18:29:14  <planetmaker> make sure the language header is right
18:29:23  <planetmaker> well. sure. You should test it for sanity
18:29:46  <planetmaker> i.e. become a native speaker of that language and start the game with it :-)
18:30:00  <planetmaker> you may skip the pre-requisit with knowledge of the language ;-)
18:30:08  <planetmaker> but not the deduction :-P
18:30:23  * andythenorth envisages someone trolling the grf with lots of 'your mum' jokes instead of industry names :P
18:30:33  <planetmaker> lol :-)
18:31:02  <andythenorth> we're very trusting about all this code we share around freely :P
18:31:14  <andythenorth> I'll compile e.g. patches without reading them
18:31:50  <andythenorth> be trivial to do something like a makefile attack with rm * -r
18:31:54  <andythenorth> I'd run it :P
18:32:00  <planetmaker> who says that they're not read?
18:32:47  <andythenorth> I don't read things I apply ;)
18:32:54  <andythenorth> I just curl and patch :P
18:34:09  * Alberth check whether he can add his trollings into the FIRS repo
18:35:08  <andythenorth> hmm
18:35:12  <andythenorth> italian doesn't compile
18:35:22  <andythenorth> @seen Snail
18:35:22  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: I have not seen Snail.
18:35:27  <andythenorth> @seen snail
18:35:27  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: I have not seen snail.
18:35:29  <andythenorth> meh
18:35:51  <andythenorth> issues with plurals
18:36:28  <Alberth> updated
18:36:44  <Alberth> @seen snails
18:36:44  <DorpsGek> Alberth: I have not seen snails.
18:37:09  <andythenorth> why would my shell crash :P  How silly
18:37:57  <Alberth> it shouldn't  :)
18:38:17  <andythenorth> stupid mac
18:38:40  <FLHerne> :P
18:39:19  <CornishPasty> FLHerne: wat?
18:39:24  <FLHerne> Linux on Apple hardware - Apple build quality, Linux not-awful-ness :D
18:39:26  <andythenorth>
18:39:36  <andythenorth> one day Linux will be done
18:39:40  <CornishPasty> My mac works just fine on OS X
18:39:47  <andythenorth> the problem with OS X is, it's done, but is being undone
18:39:53  <CornishPasty> Hmm, true
18:39:57  <CornishPasty> Feature creep
18:39:57  * andythenorth has become a conservative crusty in his old age
18:40:03  <FLHerne> My macs work just fine on Linux :D
18:40:07  <andythenorth> Feature uncreep :P
18:40:30  <CornishPasty> 2154 is the year of Linux on the desktop
18:41:09  <Alberth> andythenorth: mine builds ok, but I didn't clean it first
18:41:31  <Alberth> CornishPasty: yes, at the two desktops that still exist then :p
18:41:40  <CornishPasty> EXACTLY!
18:41:42  <FLHerne> CornishPasty: 2012 is :P
18:41:42  <andythenorth> Alberth: your copy of snail's translation?  or your translation?
18:41:48  <CornishPasty> FLHerne: lolrofl
18:41:56  <Alberth> andythenorth: firs trunk
18:42:04  <andythenorth> k
18:42:10  <andythenorth> I didn't commit italian yet
18:42:14  <andythenorth> as it's broken :(
18:42:34  <FLHerne> Linux derivatives are already the dominant OS on smartphones; soon will be on tablets
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18:45:59  <andythenorth> I have no idea how to fix plurals, esp. for a language I can't read :)
18:46:00  <CornishPasty> They're the dominant OS on smartphones because Android is the new Symbian
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18:46:28  <andythenorth> Android is, according to my friends who have to develop for it, a low-quality raging mess
18:46:36  <krinn> hi all
18:46:51  <andythenorth> whereas iOS is a relatively stable predictable environment
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18:47:07  <andythenorth> except that Apple will shaft you at any point with an update that breaks your app
18:47:31  <CornishPasty> Or by not allowing your app onto the app store for <insert arbitrary reason>
18:47:52  <andythenorth> at least there are only 2 predictable problems
18:47:53  <andythenorth> w
18:48:07  <andythenorth> whereas some of them now have over 1,000 variants to QA for
18:48:14  <andythenorth> which is obviously impossible :P
18:49:05  <krinn> querying if (!vehlist.IsEmpty())	print("aircraft="+cEngine.GetName(vehlist.Begin())+" r_dist="+distance+" e_dist="+AIEngine.GetMaximumOrderDistance(vehlist.Begin()));  <<<-- i get e_dist=495616 for name=Douglas DC-8 so... bug ?
18:49:16  <Eddi|zuHause> "it's stable. except when they break it on purpose"
18:49:32  <andythenorth> yeah
18:49:39  <andythenorth> that
18:49:46  <andythenorth> rock, hard place
18:49:48  <krinn> thru gui this model is set to 704 cases
18:50:17  <planetmaker> @calc 704**2
18:50:17  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 495616
18:50:21  <planetmaker> get it? :-)
18:50:26  <krinn> :)
18:51:02  <krinn> yep easy like that
18:52:37  <krinn> just it's more than origin->target as this is a full go and back
18:52:46  <andythenorth> ach
18:52:57  <andythenorth> if I'm breaking savegames, 0.8.0 makes more sense than 0.7.3
18:54:23  <krinn> planetmaker, i now understand what you mean with the a->b->c trouble that a->c is too far
18:54:36  <planetmaker> :-)
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18:55:01  <krinn> but this is awful, this then not limit aircraft distance, this limit aircraft usage
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18:55:11  <planetmaker> andythenorth: not necessarily
18:55:20  <planetmaker> I'd do versions by features
18:55:27  <andythenorth> really?
18:55:28  <andythenorth> ok
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18:55:36  <planetmaker> depends on how you want to do it
18:55:49  <andythenorth> I'm kind of easy, but I'd expect 0.x.y to be compatible with other 0.x
18:55:50  <planetmaker> you could just break things in trunk and not do it in 0.7 branch
18:55:52  <planetmaker> is it used?
18:56:00  <planetmaker> I'd expect that, too :-P
18:56:06  <andythenorth> no branches are in use afaik
18:56:17  <andythenorth> except default
18:56:35  <andythenorth> so 0.7.3 or 0.8.0?
18:56:39  <andythenorth> I am writing changelog now
18:57:07  <planetmaker> so what's new compared to 0.7.2?
18:57:17  <planetmaker> I'd think not much?
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18:57:30  <andythenorth> not much
18:57:31  <krinn> planetmaker, just to make it clear : having an aircraft range of 10 cases, i suppose i could jump from airport to airport if they are within limit of 10, but will in fact fail at the 3rd airport because total range would be 20, outside the aircraft range
18:57:51  <planetmaker> krinn: yes.
18:58:01  <planetmaker> unless you make orders  to fly back the same way
18:58:07  <krinn> so it's not a distance limit, it's a usage limit: i could only use 2 airports
18:58:21  <planetmaker> no, it's not
18:58:48  <planetmaker> if your airports have a mutual distance of 15 in a triangle, you'll have no issue with a plane range of 20
18:58:54  <krinn> oh i get it, your explain, i have take as a->b->c a-c fail when in fact c->a might fail
18:59:06  <planetmaker> but if they're in a line, the distance c->a is 30, thus 20 will not suffice
18:59:12  <planetmaker> yes
18:59:37  <andythenorth> 0.7.3 smells better :P
18:59:43  <andythenorth> or 0.7.5
18:59:50  <planetmaker> nah, 0.7.3
19:00:05  <krinn> planetmaker, i won't as i have already spent all my amount of time to cry yesterday, else i would again !
19:01:27  <planetmaker> krinn: it's not hard to also check distance of last order -> first order, is it?
19:01:47  <planetmaker> it's a ring anyway
19:01:47  <krinn> no, it's easy
19:02:29  <andythenorth> for i in orders
19:02:33  <krinn> does openttd take 495616 or the 704 as a->b check ?
19:02:44  <andythenorth> if > foo, raise :P
19:03:30  <krinn> andythenorth, except if < foo because foo= foo**2 :)
19:04:35  <andythenorth> sounds fun :P
19:04:56  <krinn> sounds only :)
19:05:28  <frosch123> krinn: both AIOrder::GetOrderDistance and AIEngine::GetMaximumOrderDistance() return squared euclidian distance
19:05:38  <frosch123> so, you can compare them without any conversion
19:05:54  <krinn> except i'm not comparing them
19:06:03  <frosch123> (for aircraft; for ships it is actually manhattan distance)
19:06:19  <krinn> as i compare the max distance an aircraft could do vs my manhattan distance from airport a to b
19:07:43  *** roadt__ [~roadt@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:07:46  <planetmaker> still, easier to compare squares
19:07:54  <frosch123> use AITile::GetDistanceSquareToTile then :)
19:08:11  <frosch123> but, granted, we should document the unit of those vehicle/order distance functions
19:08:44  <krinn> yep, my fisrt thinking as you see would be compare ab bc ca and not check abc
19:09:05  <krinn> hmmm i mean abca
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19:17:50  <NGC3982> someone said rusty
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19:27:19  <Alberth> I have not seen someone for a long time
19:27:37  <TrueBrain> I have seen many people not for a long time
19:31:15  <michi_cc> krinn: Always use AIOrder::GetOrderDistance to query the distance.You can pass tiles that either are part of a station or are not, it will automatically calculate the right thing.
19:32:09  <krinn> you can solve the problem in two ways: force a bad distance and check AIOrder validity next. Or check the distance and not force AIOrder as you already know the distance will be reject
19:32:14  <krinn> i'm trying the 2nd way
19:32:58  <krinn> because the 1st one is rought, while the 2nd way allow me to pickup an aircraft that will indeed be able to travel that distance
19:32:59  <michi_cc> AIOrder::GetOrderDistance does not depend on the actual orders of any vehicle. You pass two tiles to it.
19:34:12  <krinn> 2s, checking it
19:34:44  <michi_cc> AIEngine::GetMaximumOrderDistance and AIOrder::GetOrderDistance complement each other, and you can always use > or < on the returned values without knowing if it is square, manhatten or whatever that is applicable for the vehicle type.
19:35:52  <TrueBrain> its like someone thought about it when designing it :D (wasnt me, thats for sure; I dont think things through in general :D)
19:35:58  <krinn> well, except i need to know the two points, while knowing the distance is easy
19:36:18  <krinn> eheh i know this might looks weird at first ok
19:36:34  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:36:42  <TrueBrain> your loking for a place to put your second <whatever> down?
19:36:48  <michi_cc> How do you build an airport at the destination without knowing a tile? :)
19:37:34  <michi_cc> But if you really want to emulate it, for aircraft the distance is the squared distance between the northern tile of each airport.
19:37:41  <krinn> that's that, i don't have the airport, it's just to handle the engine, so the X & Y aren't important and not pass, only x->y is useful
19:38:16  <krinn> but the solve appears easy, just compare distance**2 and i'm done
19:40:00  <michi_cc> Anyway, only AIOrder::GetOrderDistance is guaranteed to have the right result of something changes in the future, for anything else you have to watch out yourself.
19:40:24  <frosch123> "I personally prefer FIRS, but that's mainly because it only takes 1 GRF slot while ECS can take up to 7, and the total number of GRFs one can load at once is rather limited." <- haha
19:41:08  <krinn> well, i'm not making magic there, and i don't really see why only the AIOrder::GetOrderDistance is guaranteed vs the MaxOrderDistance michi_cc
19:41:26  <Terkhen> we need 255 NewGRFs per game :P
19:41:37  <krinn> vehlist.Valuate(AIEngine.GetMaximumOrderDistance); + vehlist.KeepValue(distance*distance)
19:42:01  <frosch123> Terkhen: yup, and 256 cargos with 512 industry types or so
19:42:28  <Terkhen> I agree, otherwise the game feels unnecessarily limited
19:42:31  <krinn> but we certainly need more than just 1 nogo...
19:42:58  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you load single-aircraft and single-object grfs, plus every station set out there, you really get to the limit fast
19:44:07  <krinn> if you think about all nogo scripts as "funny script", 1 is enough, you run that mode or that mode of playing, but if you think of nogo helper script, 1 is clearly too limited
19:45:20  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: the script author can load use the other scripts as modules
19:45:31  <glx> it's a goal script, not a helper script
19:46:12  <krinn> well, nogo helper script could do wonder, even better than some newgrf as it leave a chance for AI to speak with a NOGO script, while newGRF don't
19:47:15  <krinn> I've seen Eddi|zuHause speak in forum with someone (wow him again!) about newGRF limit per aircraft type, a newGRF that will do that will broke all AI, a NOGO script can do that easy and can speak to AI to tell them what are the limits
19:47:20  <Eddi|zuHause> *hÃŒstel* callback 18!
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19:47:49  <frosch123> krinn: i don't understand your latest question about GetTownAuthority. that functions doe not return a bool
19:48:41  <krinn> frosch123, ah yes my bad, but the it return the townID, and the bool in my mind was compare result vs your check town :/
19:49:15  <SilPho> Not sure if this is a bug on my end or a general bug: Buying land doesn't seem to have a cost. Only the cost of bulldozing. Is that right?
19:49:16  <frosch123> still i don't get your question. are there maybe some negations too few or too many?
19:49:30  <krinn> frosch123, i'll try to make myself clearer
19:49:53  <frosch123> maybe you have an example ai :)
19:50:00  <krinn> frosch123, i wish find a tile that townX handle, so if i build my airport at that tile i then must get sure townX own the airport
19:50:14  <krinn> frosch123, plenty, any AI using airport get the problem
19:50:41  <frosch123> why do you actually want to find a tile within the authority of a town?
19:50:53  <frosch123> i could understand the reverse, but not this way
19:51:04  <krinn> because i just want build an airport for townX and not for townY
19:51:14  <krinn> this cause a lot of trouble else
19:51:38  <frosch123> but townauthority is about town rating
19:51:44  <frosch123> not about "belonging to a town"
19:51:56  <Eddi|zuHause> so you want to valuate a tile list by which town a station would get
19:52:08  <krinn> then that's what i'm seeking, a belonging to a town
19:52:25  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, yes, just that, but this is impossible to get
19:52:28  <Rubidium> SilPho: that sounds about right
19:52:30  <Eddi|zuHause> make a delaunay triangulation :)
19:52:46  <frosch123> you can use GetClosestTown
19:52:50  <Eddi|zuHause> (i have code :))
19:52:52  <krinn> doesn't work frosch123
19:52:54  <frosch123> that will tell you the name which the station will have
19:53:12  <Eddi|zuHause> (it isn't quite up to date though)
19:53:15  <frosch123> well, i have no idea what you want then :)
19:54:02  <SilPho> Rubidium: Really? Just seems strange that you can "buy" bulldozed land for free
19:54:25  <krinn> frosch123, i just want build an airport in a town, and make sure it will belong and be handle by that town
19:55:01  <krinn> that's seem so easy, but in fact, anything i have try end with a "could chance it work"
19:55:06  <frosch123> what do you mean with "belong" and "handle"?
19:55:51  <krinn> i mean says townX: when built the airport should affect townX
19:56:09  <frosch123> affect what?
19:56:28  <krinn> town and station affect each over you know :)
19:56:32  <Rubidium> SilPho: buying land is a nuisance anyway
19:56:58  <krinn> airport affect noise and rating in the town
19:56:58  <frosch123> krinn: you are asking way to broad. i have no idea what kind of affection you mean
19:57:10  <frosch123> ah, so you want to know about noise
19:57:27  <krinn> :(
19:57:27  <SilPho> Rubidium: For the buyer or for other players?
19:57:52  <krinn> i know that already frosch123
19:58:02  <Rubidium> everyone (for other reasons)
19:58:17  <frosch123> ... what?
19:58:21  <krinn> frosch123, you never build an airport for townX that was in fact affecting townY ???
19:58:41  <frosch123> again... affect what?
19:58:55  <frosch123> an airport affects a town in about a dozen ways
19:58:56  <SilPho> Rubidium: I guess I'm not really disputing that, but I'm sure there used to be a cost for it. Maybe it was intentionally removed
19:59:04  <frosch123> iirc noise even affects multiple towns, not a single one
19:59:17  <krinn> frosch123, in all the ways you wish, i don't care the way, i only care WHO it will affect
19:59:31  <frosch123> then your question is ill-formed
19:59:44  <krinn> and you cannot get it, when per example, two towns are close each other, and might share same tile influence
19:59:55  <frosch123> the various effects on towns all have different radii and rules
20:00:52  <krinn> ok let me try the other way, think about an AI
20:01:39  <krinn> you check AITile.IsWithinTownInfluence for townX
20:01:55  <krinn> it take the tile and townID as param
20:02:12  <krinn> you have sometimes return value > 0, mean townX influence that tile ok
20:02:56  <krinn> but if you try to build the airport, you may per example get "Error too many station" or "townY doesn't accept more noise" for that tile
20:03:18  <krinn> see the problem: that tile is influence by townX, but in fact, an airport at that tile will belong to townY
20:03:52  *** th_gergo [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:04:06  <krinn> while there's 0 station in townX (to explain the "too many station" error), and townY indeed as too many stations
20:06:14  <frosch123> so, about noise: the town affected by building an airport is returned by AIAirport::GetNearestTown. you can check the effect using GetNoiseLevelIncrease and GetAllowedNoise
20:06:30  <frosch123> wrt. town rating, the town being asked is returned by GetTownAuthority
20:07:02  <frosch123> and AIAirport::GetNearestTown may indeed return a different town than GetTownAuthority or GetClosestTown
20:07:17  <krinn> please look at the airport sample in the screenshot in the bug report, you might understand better visually see it
20:07:29  <frosch123> no
20:07:51  <frosch123> your screenshot does not help me about understanding what you actually want
20:08:04  <frosch123> you now asked me twice about town noise, which i answered
20:08:18  <krinn> i told you twice i know how to handle noise
20:08:20  <frosch123> if you want to know some other town effect you have to ask a proper question
20:08:39  <frosch123> there is no such thing as "airport belongs to town"
20:08:45  <frosch123> it is different for each effect
20:09:01  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe that is already the biggest bug
20:09:40  <krinn> that's it Eddi|zuHause, as is, i endup trying to build two airports in the same town because openttd mistake me about the tile owner
20:10:20  <krinn> i cannot get a valid answer from GetTownInfluence, nor from GetTownAuthority, nor from GetClosestTown!
20:10:21  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: so you only care about which label the station will get?
20:10:45  <krinn> yes! as this really mean that town will handle that station
20:10:59  <frosch123> nope :p
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20:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that would mean GetClosestTown should handle it
20:11:26  <Rhamphoryncus> SilPho: think of it this way: bulldozing itself buys, but unless you plant a sign you soon abandon it
20:11:27  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, it doesn't :(
20:11:41  <frosch123> krinn: because your assumptions are wrong
20:11:49  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, you sometimes have a small town next to a big town that have expand close to it
20:11:58  <frosch123> GetClosestTown is the correct answer wrt. name in the station sign
20:12:06  <frosch123> but it is not the correct answer for noise
20:12:21  <SilPho> Rhamphoryncus: I could think of it that way, I'm just wondering if this is desired behaviour. The wiki seems to disagree
20:12:49  <Rhamphoryncus> SilPho: I can think of behaviour I'd like better, but this isn't a bug, no
20:12:51  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: which effect is wrong when you rely on GetClosestTown?
20:13:06  <SilPho> Rhamphoryncus: Fair enough. Thanks :)
20:13:14  <Rhamphoryncus> np :)
20:14:22  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, all effects that influence a town: if you remove something there, townY will get crazy, while you are handling townX, same,  you have check noise for townX, but anytime you try build it there, townY keep yelling it doesn't want more noise...
20:15:11  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: so you need to loop over all tiles of the station layout?
20:15:32  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no, he just has to use two functions
20:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause> ...
20:16:23  <frosch123> GetClosestTown and AIAirport::GetNearestTown are two functions he wants
20:16:40  <krinn> look at this screenshot Eddi|zuHause
20:17:12  <krinn> see the airport, it's name is Chateauroux Est while i was expecting build one for Babyonne (all the 2 are influence tile found for bayonne)
20:17:37  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: so which function did you use there?
20:18:15  <krinn> 2: all 2 are influence over bayonne, all 3 in the screenshot are town authority for over bayonne
20:18:24  <krinn> as you see the 3 are only a few
20:18:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, town authority is smaller than the town for very large cities
20:19:00  <Eddi|zuHause> as it does not grow with city size
20:19:04  <frosch123> krinn: your screenshot lacks GetClosestTown
20:19:47  <krinn> yes frosch123
20:20:01  <Rhamphoryncus> So what you want is one that incorporates the rings?
20:20:29  <krinn> a way to find a tile in that ring that really belong to the target town and not another town !
20:20:41  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: if you didn't use GetClosestTown, then why do you think it is wrong?
20:20:56  <krinn> because i have test it already, and it fail too
20:21:10  <krinn> getclosesttown could tell you the closest town is X while you will have airport build for Y
20:21:49  <Rhamphoryncus> Conceptually, take the distance for each town, subtract the size from the largest ring from each, then take whichever is closest.  Note that the distance may be negative
20:22:12  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: like frosch123 said. GetClosestTown will tell you which name it will get, Airport::GetNearestTown will tell you which noise is affected
20:22:43  <andythenorth> anyone want to build FIRS 0.7.3 and tell me the md5?
20:23:08  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: so you need to check both to get the "right" airport
20:24:03  <andythenorth> I have 01a3ed84fc554101c44cc5de1a4f7956
20:24:08  <krinn> I can limit it by checking them both, but still both can mistake
20:25:38  <andythenorth> bah
20:25:46  <andythenorth> md5s don't match the bundle server
20:25:50  <andythenorth> again :(
20:25:53  *** Miguelzinho [~Miguelzin@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:26:07  *** drac_boy [] has joined #openttd
20:26:09  <drac_boy> hi
20:27:33  *** Chris_Booth [] has joined #openttd
20:27:43  <andythenorth> why so many md5s?
20:28:09  <andythenorth> if I use grfid -m I get one md5
20:28:19  <andythenorth> make bundle_zip has written a different md5
20:28:25  *** DDR [] has joined #openttd
20:28:27  <andythenorth> and the bundle server has yet another
20:29:01  <drac_boy> andythenorth I dunno what to tell you, I have *never* ever used these ever :-/  sorry
20:29:11  <andythenorth> I can't release while they're different
20:29:21  <andythenorth> as it tells me the grf is broken
20:29:26  <andythenorth> how / why I have no idea
20:29:28  <andythenorth> :(
20:30:04  <andythenorth> frosch123: would you mind md5-ing FIRS 0.7.3?
20:31:18  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: I'll do it
20:31:31  <andythenorth> ta
20:31:41  <frosch123> i am already building :)
20:31:51  <Rhamphoryncus> I'm doing a fresh clone
20:32:32  <andythenorth> 2 data points :)
20:33:03  <frosch123>
20:33:14  <Rhamphoryncus> unrelated: how much of firs' design is dictated by the 3 in/2 out limit for industries?
20:35:05  <Rhamphoryncus> Where's grfid?
20:35:07  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: quite a lot of it
20:35:23  <frosch123> Rhamphoryncus: grfcodec
20:36:07  <andythenorth> frosch123: so none of my md5s match yours :(
20:36:28  * andythenorth updates nml
20:36:41  <frosch123> oh, i can update nml as well
20:37:24  <frosch123> wow, i was on nml 0.2 branch
20:37:43  <frosch123> hmm, no i was not
20:39:27  <andythenorth> 95bc342fc014a0ce1a91e996cd449f11 matches yours now
20:39:45  <frosch123> no changes for me after nml update
20:39:55  <frosch123> the 2 changesets it pulled did not affect the result
20:40:20  <andythenorth> did for me
20:40:22  <andythenorth> how odd
20:40:26  <andythenorth> anyway, release time
20:40:50  <Rhamphoryncus> Guess I have to  update nml too
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20:42:17  <Rhamphoryncus> I also make sure to make clean every time.  FIRS' makefile is not so reliable :/
20:42:23  <andythenorth> no
20:42:28  <frosch123> Rhamphoryncus: hg purge --all
20:42:34  <andythenorth> I have aliased a 'make clean && make install
20:42:40  <frosch123> but make sure to not have any diffs or similar in the firs directory
20:42:48  <frosch123> it will delete everything not from the repo
20:43:08  <Rhamphoryncus> I do make || make clean when working on firs itself, as that seems to work right.  However, this is an update of nmlc
20:43:14  * telanus1 think it's cool
20:43:16  <andythenorth> building without the makefile is often much faster
20:43:47  <Rhamphoryncus> I match now too :D
20:44:11  <Rhamphoryncus> You can build without the makefile?
20:44:18  <telanus1> when I started Afrikaans was 95% translated, now 99.4% translated
20:44:28  <Rhamphoryncus> telanus1: woot :)
20:44:44  <telanus1> just 21 lines, then 100%
20:45:01  <frosch123> quick! add new strings :p
20:45:20  <drac_boy> heh
20:45:30  <telanus1> Then FIRS translation (hopefully)
20:45:39  <Rubidium> Afrikaans used to be 100% translated
20:45:47  *** TWerkhoven2[l] [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:46:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: by google translate :)
20:46:29  <telanus1> a lot by google translate
20:47:33  <frosch123> telanus1: do you maybe also speak traditional chinese?
20:47:37  <andythenorth> most of FIRS 0.7.3 is patches by other people :P
20:47:46  * andythenorth has become a patchpack maintainer, not an author :P
20:48:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: or a boss :p
20:48:12  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: you can build without the makefile if you're only updating graphics :P
20:48:17  <frosch123> only holding a speech when it is done
20:48:18  <andythenorth> using grfcodec
20:48:22  <andythenorth> it's *way* faster
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20:48:37  <andythenorth> 1.7s
20:48:41  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: That's what happens when you have a good quality, interesting project that's open to outside help :)
20:48:50  <Rhamphoryncus> ah, never done graphics
20:49:58  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but if you stopped using "make clean", the makefile would figure out that you're only doing graphics, and only call grfcodec
20:50:12  <andythenorth> yeah
20:50:25  <andythenorth> but I have to use make clean because the dep check doesn't work reliably
20:50:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you're doing it wrong then
20:51:04  <andythenorth> I have to do a mental dep check instead "what did I change"
20:51:11  <telanus1> frosch123: I only speak Afrikaans & English, and understand Dutch 90% of the time, and able to read very-basic german
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20:52:11  <frosch123> well, traditional chinese would have been 94.1 % :)
20:53:05  <frosch123> maybe ottd was banned from the chinese web
20:53:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure it was due to the controverse copyright :p
20:55:18  <frosch123> too sad that we cannot reach 1/3 of the earth population because the marathi translation is incomplete
20:55:59  <frosch123> hmm, maybe i should suggest that in the "marketing"-topic
20:56:11  <Rubidium> frosch123: interestingly Traditional Chinese has zh_TW
20:56:24  <frosch123> oh, did i confuse them?
20:56:32  <frosch123> i though simplified was TW
20:56:38  <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm.  This map will be very profitable once setup.. industries are scattered quite well.  Unfortunately starting is looking almost impossible ;)
20:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: i've had that problem with YACD... it's really only sensible to start with passengers.
20:58:05  <Rhamphoryncus> What YACD? XD
20:58:13  <Rhamphoryncus> This is a 512x512 with 5 towns
20:58:54  <andythenorth> does YACD build against trunk currently?
20:59:43  <Rubidium> andythenorth: ofcourse it does
20:59:58  * andythenorth hasn't tried for some time :P
21:00:11  <Rubidium> ... for the right revisions of trunk
21:00:25  <frosch123> andythenorth: you should ask on the forums whether someone can build 1.2+yacd for you :p
21:00:46  <Rubidium> frosch123: that's easy
21:01:17  <frosch123> :p
21:01:44  <andythenorth> does YACD build against trunk tip *right now* ? :P
21:01:46  <frosch123> sounds like you applied distributive law
21:01:53  <frosch123> +the
21:02:18  <Rubidium> after all, the last version of YACD was against (or something similar)
21:02:37  <Eddi|zuHause> didn't someone do an update?
21:04:08  <krinn> ah i found why i get mad with it, i remember now, basically any town north another town invalidate mostly all tiles within both town if you check getclosesttown, because the station sign is north too
21:05:10  * andythenorth ponders a python conversion of FIRS
21:05:16  <krinn> that's game mechanic liimit
21:05:32  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: how much could be converted?
21:05:39  <andythenorth> tradeoff: codebase I don't understand (current), but others do (but are busy)
21:05:47  <andythenorth> versus: codebase *only* I understand :P
21:06:27  <supermop> how can a newgrf be written in python?
21:06:29  <Rhamphoryncus> But most of it would still be in nml?
21:06:33  <andythenorth> absolutely
21:06:37  <Terkhen> with lot sof workarounds, probably :P
21:06:39  <Terkhen> lots of*
21:06:53  <Rhamphoryncus> So you'd be replacing the CPP with python?
21:06:56  <andythenorth> yes
21:07:04  <krinn> andythenorth, do it in squirrel, you will love other newGRF doing crazy things you cannot see :)
21:07:11  <Rhamphoryncus> With a vague possibility of hacking into nmlc later since it's also written in python..
21:07:32  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: meh
21:07:34  <andythenorth> not needed
21:07:38  <Rhamphoryncus> very very vague? :)
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21:08:01  <andythenorth> could be done
21:08:12  <andythenorth> nml modules can be loaded
21:08:18  <andythenorth> CETS does it
21:08:20  <andythenorth> iirc
21:08:23  <Rhamphoryncus> huh
21:08:45  <Rhamphoryncus> The question is if it gains anything, since you're still limited to the underlying newgrf API
21:08:54  <Rhamphoryncus> or VM as I should say
21:08:55  <Zuu> krinn: I hear your pain with airport tiles. I haven't really found the problem that you have, but probably just because I haven't seen it yet. As it should for sure manifest in probably both PAXLink and CluelessPlus.
21:09:35  <andythenorth> I gain code I can work on
21:09:49  <andythenorth> I lose the other developers and/or annoy them :(
21:10:01  <Rhamphoryncus> I should mention that I have LOTS of experience in python
21:10:03  <andythenorth> I also gain a new round of conversion bugs to fix
21:10:35  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: have you looked at how BANDIT works?  Or CETS?
21:10:38  <Rhamphoryncus> nope
21:10:42  <andythenorth> both python, both different but viable
21:10:43  *** fonsinchen [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:11:10  <andythenorth> CETS compiles directly, BANDIT uses templating
21:11:13  <krinn> Zuu, the real problem appears with big airports, by this time, places are short, towns are bigger and many town have "shared" influence tiles, once there, the problem get so tied, because town have many stations and refuse your while you have check some other town noise/rating...
21:11:33  * Rhamphoryncus browses bandit
21:11:55  <andythenorth> BANDIT has a main build script that creates first class python objects for each vehicle
21:11:59  <Zuu> krinn: Good news skip the intercontinental as the international is better
21:12:07  <andythenorth> these are then in scope for the templater that writes out nml
21:12:15  * Rhamphoryncus grumbles about wanting flash
21:12:45  <krinn> Zuu, well, the size increase chance of failure, but even the smallest one can endup bad
21:13:39  *** SilPho [~silpho@] has quit [Quit: SilPho]
21:13:45  <Zuu> well, I guess that is the joy of all complexity of OpenTTD :-)
21:14:07  <Zuu> Noone has said that making an AI for OpenTTD is easy. :-)
21:14:15  <krinn> at least, it's game mechanic, something "strong written"
21:14:28  <krinn> not like this newGRF hell :)
21:14:52  <Zuu> heh, though also NoGos currently are a black box to AIs I think.
21:15:20  <krinn> look this one, if anyone does this with newGRF, poof, all AI gone mad
21:15:50  <krinn> no Zuu i already think about it ! NoGo can take over an AI, so nogo can "speak" with an AI
21:15:59  <krinn> so the AI will not get blind like with a newGRF
21:16:15  <andythenorth> krinn: you're on a losing battle ;)
21:16:30  <andythenorth> the default approach to features is 'that should be done in newgrf' wherever possible
21:17:03  <andythenorth> so newgrf has an enormous capability to create insanity for AI authors
21:17:06  <krinn> say you make a NoGo script that limit chopper to 20: your AI can put a sign at his HQ, says "nogo chopper" and nogo read it, and alter it to "chopper 20" -> now your AI know chopper limit is set to 20
21:17:17  <Zuu> krinn: Though, I don't know if NoGo know if a given company is an AI. Placing cryptic signs that are part in NoGo<->AI communication for players would be wierd.
21:17:26  <krinn> with newGRF: your AI will get an error after the 20rd choppers without an explain
21:17:56  <krinn> Zuu, nogo doestn't place the sign, the AI place it to query nogo, nogo check it exist and answer
21:18:19  <krinn> nogo and AI can speak, AI & nogo cannot speak with newGRF
21:18:22  <supermop> an unnamed social site i used just made me a moderator without my input....
21:18:27  <Zuu> yes, with your proposal it is like that. I wrote the message before reading your proposal.
21:18:37  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: I hate to say it but bandit looks inscrutable :(
21:18:49  <andythenorth> which parts did you try to scrute?
21:18:59  <Rhamphoryncus> nml is inscrutable to begin with, and templating just adds more confusion
21:19:07  <supermop> there seems to be some script whereby if you've been around long enough and no one complains about it makes you a moderator?
21:19:10  <krinn> of course the AI need to handle it, but at least, you can (and i would say) easy made it, maybe some better communication could be even made
21:19:42  <krinn> but with newgrf, you cannot even know one is load :)
21:19:48  <Zuu> krinn: For that query system to work, it would help greatly to have a common protocol.
21:19:51  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: templates mostly
21:19:57  <andythenorth> read
21:20:07  <Zuu> Or AIs would have to try all different hand shaking messages until NoGo responds :-)
21:20:23  <krinn> that's just a standard to set
21:20:36  <andythenorth> specifically the two main Classes
21:20:58  <krinn> but it could be done, that's why nogo & AI can work really good, while nogo & AI cannot with newgrf and are blind
21:21:52  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: that and the cfg are good
21:22:03  <krinn> this is also why i think nogo limit to 1 script will show its limit fast, or we should build one big nogo that could do anything
21:22:11  <andythenorth> newgrf has a defined spec, but no defined ways to use it, so it won't ever be reliable in the way you want
21:22:55  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: truck_template.pynml is straightforward
21:23:15  <andythenorth> specifically the item{} block
21:23:16  <Rhamphoryncus> Yep, that one's good
21:23:17  <krinn> andythenorth, right now, for AI & nogo, it would be like if newGRF have no callback with openttd : blind
21:23:33  <andythenorth> it will stay blind
21:23:47  <andythenorth> there's simply no way to specify what a newgrf is doing reliably
21:23:56  *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido]
21:24:18  <andythenorth> you could extend the hinting system and hope authors use it....
21:24:29  <Zuu> krinn: A such protocol would probably need either to cover all possible NoGo usages, or it could have a rather slim standard behaviour and leave the rest up to the NoGo to define.
21:24:59  *** Chris_Booth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:25:12  <Zuu> Basically there could be "nogo shortname" to get the short name of the NoGo and "nogo version" to get the version and then leave the rest up to the NoGo to decide.
21:25:38  <krinn> Zuu, i was thinking a basic protocol that define how to speak with each other, and a reserved word someone took and we add it as a valid word, a bit like event, if AI doesn't know it, it won't be able to query it anyway
21:26:01  <Zuu> It should then be packed as an AI and GS library :-)
21:26:24  <krinn> Zuu, this would also gave nogo a chance to register who is AI and who is human
21:26:45  <andythenorth> if Newgrf authors could bundle a helper script, then that could interface with AI + NoGo the same way
21:26:46  <andythenorth> :P
21:26:58  <Zuu> Though, only AIs that have the AI beacon active :-)
21:26:59  <krinn> and this could be valuable info for nogo, don't ask human what AI can do, don't ask AI what only human can do
21:27:35  <Zuu> Sounds like an interesting project :-)
21:27:36  <krinn> Zuu, yes of course, but most AI would handle it fast i think, just they would handle more or less fast the new "api"
21:28:04  <krinn> i'm pretty sure anyone would agree to add the "speak" part, specially because we could just made a lib that handle it :)
21:28:35  * andythenorth -> sleep
21:28:39  <andythenorth> good night
21:28:46  <Zuu> night
21:28:51  <krinn> we could try define the easy, register your AI with a nogo script part to see if you wish ?
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21:29:07  <krinn> and see the number of AI agreeing to handle it
21:29:58  <Zuu> I just scanned the nogo list and though that perhaps add it to the TransportGoal GS for starter. It is a very simple GS that is more a proof of concept than anything. Could be a good start.
21:30:50  <Zuu> An AI aware of it could value cargo capacity of engines higher for example.
21:31:26  <krinn> yep, also make some GS that dosn't ask goal to AI but only human...
21:31:44  <Zuu> One problem I realize, is that it is common for NoGo to put messages to players on the HQ, so probably a different tile has to be used.
21:32:02  <Zuu> One could use (1, 1 + company ID)
21:32:17  <Zuu> Eg, put the signs in a corner of the map
21:32:20  <krinn> well, we could define to put the sign at tile 0 per example, as the sign is per player
21:32:35  <krinn> they don't overlap no ?
21:33:07  <krinn> i mean player 1 build sign at 0, if player2 build one also at 0, you can see one or the other but both exist right ?
21:33:18  <Zuu> Hmm, yes, in plain OpenTTD I think you can put several signs ontop of each other.
21:33:34  <Zuu> Its only in SuperLib where I have tried to work around that and limit it to one sign per tile.
21:33:56  <krinn> and nogo can already knows the owner of the sign, so it should works
21:34:25  <Zuu> So we could put it at tile 0, only thing to watch out for is that depending on some advanced setting the border of the map is reserved for storage.
21:34:35  <Zuu> So using (1, 1) is probably safer.
21:35:01  <Zuu> Though some dev could probably inform us if we use a dangerous tile, and that is easy to tweak.
21:35:39  <krinn> i think as long as the sign are close to an edge it won't disturb too much
21:35:55  <krinn> and the AI/lib should discard it when read
21:36:31  <Zuu> And for those who have a problem with AIs giving "wierd" names to things, there is now a setting to hide competitor signs :-)
21:37:11  <krinn> Ah good, so we could use station names for saving so :)
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21:38:07  <Zuu> hehe, and a NoGo could easily identify AIAI and CluelessPlus based on station names.
21:38:16  <krinn> i also notice the good, remove all sign on AI reload, nice
21:38:42  <krinn> Zuu, well, i have put (dictatorai) in my name for that, i don't think AI should hide their status
21:38:54  <krinn> But i suppose cluelessplus would register itself with nogo :)
21:39:21  <Zuu> Yes, I would update my AIs and NoGos to use this when we have invented the library. :-)
21:39:49  <krinn> sounds a good thing to do
21:40:14  <krinn> the faster it will be done, the faster new nogo script will handle it, AI will follow, i think at good speed
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21:40:43  <krinn> specially nogo & AI share their forum
21:41:22  <krinn> once nogo & ai can speak, we could make them yell both at newGRF :) (kidding)
21:41:29  <Zuu> hehe
21:41:46  <Zuu> So, first we need a name :-)
21:42:16  <Zuu> IOLib?
21:42:33  <Zuu> QueryLib
21:42:47  <Zuu> SocialLib?
21:43:07  <Zuu> ANT - Ai Nogo Talk
21:43:15  <krinn> oh i like ANT
21:43:42  <krinn> the idea, each ant work for the group :)
21:43:42  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's either AI and Goal or NoAI and NoGo
21:43:47  <Zuu> ANSI = Ai Nogo Standard Interface
21:44:08  <krinn> lol you're good at finding name zuu
21:44:08  <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Good point
21:44:31  <Zuu> well, andy has set the standards high on that point
21:44:56  <supermop> tag?
21:45:41  <Terkhen> good night
21:45:47  <krinn> night Terkhen
21:46:14  <Zuu> NoCom
21:46:28  <krinn> :) aren't trying to do the opposite
21:46:48  <Zuu> No worse than NoAI :-)
21:46:59  <krinn> ah yes :P
21:48:10  <krinn> ComPro just the short for communcation protocol
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21:49:03  <Zuu> In the end, I kind of like library names that actually describe what they do :-)
21:49:32  <Zuu> ComPro make me think of HiPro, an interface to program hearing aids.
21:49:39  <krinn> NT (No-aigo talk)
21:49:49  <krinn> if MS don't sue us :)
21:50:59  <krinn> hihi SCP script communication protocol (and people will think they could copy using ssh with nogo/noai)
21:51:11  <Zuu> hehe
21:51:25  <Zuu> I like that one
21:51:38  <krinn> in fact, i like it too, it's simple
21:51:55  <krinn> and script include both nogo & noai
21:52:09  <Zuu> and future additional scripts that might be supported
21:52:31  <krinn> You never know with those mad devs !
21:52:36  <Zuu> hehe
21:53:28  <Zuu> Though, none of them shown any mad behaviour at the r20k party.
21:54:09  <Eddi|zuHause> not mad behaviour? were you at the same party as me?
21:55:09  <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Not mad as in angry. But perhaps mad as in crazy people takling about OpenTTD in a garden all night? :-)
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21:57:49  <krinn> Zuu, two bytes should be enough for base : one to query/answer, another one for the query itself, and then anything need to feel the needs of the query
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21:58:51  <Zuu> krinn: I will not have much time to start coding this weekend, so if you want to start coding this weekend you can do so.
21:59:06  <krinn> i work this weekend
21:59:17  <krinn> but break on monday
21:59:48  <Zuu> Sounds nice with some vacation.
22:00:06  <krinn> but i think i could start this weekend to read nogo API better
22:01:00  <Zuu> A similar libary to what we want to do, but still not really is TileLabels.
22:01:23  <krinn> it's in openttdcoop?
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22:02:07  <Zuu> It reads all signs at start that match a pattern and store them in memory (and remove the signs from the map). It then provides an interface for the GS to ask for the tile index that has a given name/label.
22:02:11  <Zuu> Yes
22:02:45  <krinn>
22:02:49  <krinn> this one?
22:02:52  <Zuu> I use it to have signs in the Tutorial save game to declare the location of where the user should build the canal rather than hard coding the tile indices into the NoGo.
22:03:37  <Zuu> No, this one:
22:04:01  <krinn> oh you made that one
22:04:21  <Zuu> If we write the library for AIs and then just translate it to GS, we can re-use the translation script of SuperLib, though it is not really rocket sciense to translate between NoAI and NoGo.
22:05:22  <Zuu> But that we'll see if it is easiest to use a single code base or two separete code bases. Though I would guess a single code base for both AI and GS will help.
22:05:41  <krinn> i was thinking two would be easier
22:05:57  <krinn> with a shared file that record/define the keywords
22:06:32  <krinn> but we could do one for both yes
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22:07:14  <Zuu> it needs a script to "bake" the other version, but that is how I do it for SuperLib and it works quite well.
22:07:55  <krinn> so we will do like that, specially that both should shared a lot of code
22:08:05  <Zuu> Though in our case we'll probably want to have at least one source file that is unique for each library defining the specific behaviour of the AI / Goal script edition.
22:08:59  <krinn> maybe, or we could also fake the functions and redefine them
22:09:04  <Zuu> But if you see that it is hard to do and feel like you want to do it the other way, its up to you if you start coding it. :-)
22:10:30  <Zuu> Here you see the of SuperLib:
22:12:09  <krinn> isn't it easier to just extends the class ?
22:12:55  <krinn> class NCPAccounting extends AIAccounting and another file with extends GSAccounting
22:13:11  <krinn> so we just use any function with NCP in front
22:13:31  <Zuu> You need to substitute the API calls with the other prefix.
22:13:50  <krinn> yes, but we will make the call :)
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22:14:26  <Zuu> You could of course define APIRoad <- AIRoad etc. for AI and with <- GSRoad for NoGo and load the correct defition depending on scipt type.
22:14:45  <Zuu> However, that pollutes the global scope so it should probably be _SCP_APIRoad or so.
22:15:31  <krinn> yep, but it would be easy, we need just two different files that define the GS or AI extends
22:16:08  <Zuu> Hmm, actually the code that reads/writes signs should probably be different as they need to be different enough as NoGo need to handle companies etc. while AI not.
22:16:24  <Zuu> Lots of possibilities...
22:16:28  <Zuu> :-)
22:16:37  *** Elukka [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:16:41  <krinn> this could be easy handle, with default
22:17:09  <Zuu> I trust you to come up with a solution :-)
22:17:47  <krinn> function NCPSign.GetName(SignID, companyID=NCSCompany.COMPANY_SELF)
22:18:23  <krinn> nogo will pass companyID, AI won't and it will be COMPANY_SELF)
22:19:52  *** Elu [] has quit []
22:20:15  <Zuu> I think the SCP library should abstract away sign ids etc. and just allow a query interface. So the library will need to adress that the NoGo edition contains a scan-function that probes for incomming messages which will need to loop over all companies.
22:22:04  <Eddi|zuHause> LEX/YACC or FLEX/BISON?
22:22:12  <krinn> ah yes, so both could share the same GetName(SignID) and the nogo part lookup the company itself
22:22:50  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:26:13  <Zuu> Both ends might use some sort of callback mechanism to register a function to be called when the Scan method finds a message. This way a NoGo can register queries with a function to call when there is a message. I know some AIs use a callback mechanism. The GS Tutorial have a CodeStep that uses a callback function. But these things are extra when the basic library is there.
22:28:16  <Zuu> For the NoGo-side the callback could return the response.
22:28:28  <Zuu> Then the NoGo will after seting up the library only need to call the Scan function in the main loop and it should be able to handle all registred commands.
22:29:07  <krinn> well, i'm not sure of what you have in mind there
22:29:23  <krinn> the scan function can just trigger some parsing function
22:30:05  <krinn> ah yes, sorry, i see now, yes, a callback so the ai and nogo can directly handle the event
22:31:37  <krinn> you want leave the user to choose himself what name the function will be when trigger
22:33:45  <krinn> ok i'm going bed, the big lines are there, i will think about it this we, and start monday
22:35:35  <krinn> last even it appears good, the gslib-tilelabels doesn't have a license
22:35:35  <Zuu> great, have a good night
22:35:49  <krinn> if we reuse it...
22:36:15  <Zuu> TileLabels should be GPL v2. and I've written all code so it shouldn't be a problem. :-)
22:36:52  <krinn> ok seen, it's in the headers of the files
22:37:10  <Zuu> You can see it here too:
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22:37:41  <krinn> ok Zuu night then
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22:42:57  <frosch123> night
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22:50:06  * drac_boy is still having a hard time making sense of some of that topic
22:50:09  <drac_boy> maybe its just me -_-
22:52:03  *** Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:55:04  * drac_boy goes back to more sprites work
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23:21:15  * GT wonders why is completely ignored.
23:29:33  * drac_boy has no idea? :)
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23:32:40  <GT> In general, or about this post
23:35:18  <drac_boy> a bit of both maybe, 8bpp here forever :)
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23:44:22  <Rhamphoryncus> GT: it's a bikeshed argument
23:44:48  <GT> Well, 32bpp can deliver stunning graphics, but 8bpp has its  own, nostalgic atmosphere. Everyone is free to choose what he likes best.
23:45:34  <GT> What does a bikeshed argument mean?
23:45:58  <Rhamphoryncus> Google for it, but basically it's an analogy about a bike shed for a nuclear reactor
23:46:33  <Rhamphoryncus> Everybody understands a bikeshed so they all have their 2¢ to put in.  Very few understand the nuclear reactor so they all stay quiet
23:46:59  <Rhamphoryncus> Yet the nuclear reactor is extremely important to get right, the bikeshed is harmless
23:48:12  <Rhamphoryncus> In this case everybody can nitpick the art (I can too), but few are capable of actually doing it
23:48:14  <drac_boy> GT I have another reason but I don't know about going into it here tho :p
23:50:51  *** theholyduck [~holyduck@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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23:55:50  <GT> @Rhamphoryncus, I did google  for the bikeshed argument, and understand what you mean now. Thanks for your reply, I learned a new expression, and you gave me a new  insight, one that I really thought of. Thanks a lot for that.
23:55:59  <Rhamphoryncus> :)
23:56:22  <GT> s/really thought/ really never thought/
23:56:42  <Rhamphoryncus> I've done it way too much in here, but you often don't see all the bikeshed discussions that come before
23:57:24  <Rhamphoryncus> speaking of
23:58:02  <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: do you have any sort of wishlist for 1.3?  Stuff you'd like to do, and especially stuff you'd like other people to look into?

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