Log for #openttd on 21st April 2012:
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03:04:24  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: get the more height levels up to trunk standard
03:04:44  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: or split your head about newgrf state machines
03:06:46  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: did you look at the nice-to-have patches in our wiki?
03:07:04  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: or devise NewGRF bridges
03:07:15  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: or NewGRF road types
03:07:25  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: you wanted the hard stuff, did you? :-)
03:08:56  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: also, there's the long-standing issue with how settings / options / difficulty /... are scattered
03:09:20  <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: and ... presets for settings (similar to newgrf presets) come to mind there, too
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05:09:37  <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: number of bugs in the bug tracker to 0, cargo destinations, proper implementation of basically 'corners in bridges' (together with signals, crossings, also on the bridge heads, and the same underground)
05:09:52  <Rubidium> that should keep you busy ;)
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05:55:14  <Alberth> moin
06:05:41  <telanus> morning
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06:41:50  <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker, Rubidium: :)
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07:00:39  <Terkhen> good morning
07:00:57  <andythenorth> hola
07:01:18  <andythenorth> can I haz pony please?
07:01:19  <andythenorth>
07:01:29  <andythenorth> [I promise to take feed it well]
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07:07:04  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: which could fix issues I've seen in both FIRS and ECS..
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07:11:51  <andythenorth> it makes randomising initial production trivial
07:12:19  <andythenorth> just randomly return one of: -1, 0, +1 for production multiplier value
07:12:41  <Rhamphoryncus> Does that include the "farms produce too little" thing?
07:13:05  <andythenorth> it would allow farms to produce a wide range of amounts on game start
07:13:30  <andythenorth> e.g. the production multiplier could be adjusted in a range [-2..2]
07:13:35  * Rhamphoryncus nods
07:13:59  <Rhamphoryncus> or -2..0 if you want them to start low, without limiting the top end
07:14:36  <andythenorth> yes
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07:28:38  <Rhamphoryncus> Bah.  Decorative station tiles should not have such a high property maintenance cost :(
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07:39:18  <Eddi|zuHause> code them as objects
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07:43:47  <Rhamphoryncus> indeed
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08:36:16  <andythenorth> so add a new cargo unit in FIRS: 'bales'
08:36:19  <andythenorth> or a silly idea?
08:36:26  <andythenorth> used for wool, plant fibres
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08:38:15  <planetmaker> didn't you add that long ago? Or was that 'crates'?
08:38:31  <planetmaker> but as it has 'crates' already a unit 'bales' doesn't hurt
08:38:50  <planetmaker> makes it sound better after all
08:39:00  <telanus> does sound better
08:39:28  <andythenorth> so now I have to figure out how to add it :)
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08:46:13  <Wolf01> morning o/
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08:48:45  <Zuu> Is the company limit 16 or is there a slot in 4 bytes for a "no company"?
08:52:25  <planetmaker> Zuu: 15 companies
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08:52:38  <Zuu> planetmaker: thanks
08:52:39  <planetmaker> 15 player / AI companies
08:52:50  <planetmaker> the 16th is for other purposes like 'none'
08:52:57  <planetmaker> (e.g. for road)
08:53:41  <planetmaker> there's also CompanyID 255, which is the spectators
08:53:41  <Jupix2> pm any particular reason you're ignoring GeekToo? and is it temporary or permanent?
08:53:53  <planetmaker> I'm not ignoring him?
08:54:25  <Jupix2>
08:54:34  <Jupix2> please comment
08:54:35  <peter1138> Zuu, bits. 4 bytes would allow 4 billion players...
08:54:42  <planetmaker> what shall I comment?
08:54:59  <planetmaker> it feels to me like the upteens iteration of the same discussion
08:55:09  <planetmaker> I feel like I have said all I could argue
08:55:10  <SpComb> peter1138: 2 billion, not counting negative players!
08:55:35  <Zuu> planetmaker: hehe yep good spot :-)
08:55:38  <Jupix2> planetmaker: it's a prototype for a solution to a deadlocked discussion
08:55:53  <Jupix2> planetmaker: if it works, then it's a release for that deadlock
08:55:54  <Zuu> So I created a short draft for SCP
08:56:06  <Jupix2> planetmaker: you need to say either it works, or it doesn't, because X
08:56:54  <planetmaker> he has to prove it works
08:57:03  <planetmaker> it's not my duty to disprove it
08:57:07  <Jupix2> the .grf in there is proof?
08:57:30  <Jupix2> what else do you need?
08:57:36  <Jupix2> a fork of the whole of ogfx?
08:58:22  <Jupix2> as far as i can understand GT can't actually make modifications to the real ogfx+, so making that prototype was pretty much all he could do
08:59:13  <planetmaker> everyone can clone, fork and modify everything found on the devzone. Licenses allow it.
08:59:33  <planetmaker> but of course for a showcase that's not necessarily needed
08:59:48  <andythenorth> Zuu: your idea is functionally similar to my idea of allowing nogo and industry to communicate via the town :P  (which was dismissed as insanse) :)
09:00:15  <planetmaker> Jupix2: but what he does is "here's a few ground sprites coded, now please test every contingency"
09:00:27  <planetmaker> But testing that and showing that it works for all of them is HIS task. Not mine
09:00:53  <planetmaker> He's doing it way too easy by "outsourcing" the lengthy, boring proof of HIS idea to the ones he wants to convince
09:00:56  <planetmaker> sorry.
09:01:09  <Jupix2> what makes you think he hasn't done that?
09:01:17  <planetmaker> I see nothing. I only see the grf
09:01:24  <planetmaker> No screenshots of the problematic things
09:01:26  <planetmaker> nothing
09:01:29  <Zuu> andythenorth: read the backlog of yesterday night to see me and krinn discuss the idea.
09:01:33  <planetmaker> no testgame where all that shows
09:01:38  <planetmaker> or could be checked
09:01:43  <Jupix2> planetmaker: so you need screenshots of those contingencies?
09:02:35  <planetmaker> Jupix2: to put it blunt: I'm currently not willing to invest time in disproving something which I'm convinced to not be a good solution
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09:03:19  <planetmaker> especially as I got much to do in RL
09:03:21  <Jupix2> planetmaker: yeah, but what do you need proven?
09:03:51  <Jupix2> GT can't do stuff for you that you don't specify as needing doing
09:03:53  <planetmaker> why his solution is the magic "all is fine thing" while it the "as is" is so much worse
09:04:59  <planetmaker> And I'm very very tired of this "discussion". It really is not more than "it must be done differently"
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09:05:21  <planetmaker> Rarely arguments are brought and things really compared ad exemplum
09:05:56  <Jupix2> that may be because you're ignoring the example because "effort"
09:06:07  <planetmaker> with emphasis on where the differences really matter (Like foundations, half-tile slopes, shores, water, rivers, dead-end roads,...)
09:06:30  <planetmaker> Jupix2: I coded the fields myself already... one, two weeks before he coded them.
09:06:48  <planetmaker> No, I did nowhere release that or post that
09:07:19  <planetmaker> other than maybe
09:07:40  <Jupix2> with the technique that he used for the grf he posted on april 8th?
09:07:52  <planetmaker> no, just the sprites as they were
09:07:59  <planetmaker> with their faulty offsets etc
09:08:02  <Jupix2> then yours is irrelevant
09:08:06  <planetmaker> good
09:08:20  <Jupix2> for now what's important is what he posted
09:08:48  <Jupix2> and it's not being considered by the people who can modify ogfx+ which is not good
09:09:10  <Jupix2> so either they need to "wake up" or they need to give privileges to GT who does care
09:09:42  <Jupix2> radio silence does not work
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09:10:17  <Jupix2> even if it is based on some actual real argument. because when that argument is not posted, the discussion doesn't move anywhere and no solution is ever reached
09:10:33  <planetmaker> so you basically ask me to cheerio and suddenly change to "oh, that is all fine"?
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09:11:12  <Jupix2> that's up to you. i'd rather you do that if the grf works fine
09:11:20  <Jupix2> and not ignore it because of principles
09:11:29  <planetmaker> I don't ignore it because of principle
09:11:37  <Jupix2> and if you can't be arsed, then give privileges to someone who can
09:13:12  <planetmaker> But I'm very tired of the "zoom level ground sprites must be changed" "discussion". He has a grf there. Ok
09:13:17  <planetmaker> So... what does it improve?
09:13:21  <planetmaker> Where do I see that?
09:13:30  <planetmaker> Is there any comparison done and shown anywhere?
09:13:33  <planetmaker> I see none. Please do
09:13:39  <Alberth> Jupix2: you don't need privileges, and even he'd give them to someone else, that person has the same problem, namely, doing the next long and boring step of checking everything, and demonstrating all is fine
09:13:43  <planetmaker> Otherwise I consider trunk behaviour fine
09:15:16  <planetmaker> I'm really not sure what your argument is. And what conclusion you draw from GT's posting.
09:16:03  <planetmaker> There's a test grf. Ok. He's talking about compromise. But... doesn't show it
09:16:12  <planetmaker> Leaves all the "find out work" to the readers
09:16:32  <Jupix2> Alberth: if he was even recognized, then it would be his baby, and he would most certainly test it (or be ridiculed)
09:16:46  <planetmaker> It's not convincing to tell people "please convince yourself that I am wrong by investing several hours of your work while I sit back and watch what arguments you can come up with"
09:17:20  <Jupix2> planetmaker: ok, you don't need to convince me any more that you don't want to test, i'll relay what you're saying to him
09:17:48  <Jupix2> as for what the argument is and what the .grf stands for technically, that's something for GT to explain, not me
09:17:53  <Jupix2> the problem i'm solving is the radio silence
09:17:55  <Alberth> Jupix2: so what stops him from doing that now, he needs a pat on the back "good job, now please proof your claims"?
09:18:19  <planetmaker> thanks Alberth :-)
09:18:20  <Jupix2> Alberth: he thought the .grf he posted would do as proof
09:18:38  <Alberth> Jupix2: it is notr radio silence, it is "everything has been said, and nobody has new arguments"
09:18:45  <planetmaker> exactly
09:18:47  <zooks> quick question: is there a way to found towns in nogo? and/or found industries? Or will this ever be added?
09:19:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it's 21°C but i feel cold...
09:19:38  <planetmaker> Alberth is better with explaining what I mean than I am :-)
09:20:00  <Jupix2> Alberth: *sigh* i think a prototype is a pretty heavy argument. we are both pretty astonished that a full ogfx+ fork will be needed
09:20:20  <planetmaker> Jupix2: it's not an argument. It's a tool to make his point. But he stopped making his point
09:20:44  <planetmaker> leaving the hard part of *his* argument to the others
09:20:48  <Alberth> Jupix2: it's like having a patch, and claiming "it works".
09:20:51  <planetmaker> making the actual proof. It's not done
09:21:06  <Jupix2> he just didn't anticipate he'd need screenshots
09:21:19  <Jupix2> he thought you were invested enough to test for yourself and see for yourself
09:21:20  <Alberth> Jupix2: to claim "it works", you have to demonstrate why, and how it looks
09:22:05  <Jupix2> ok, my final point: next time, all that has been said during the last 5 mins, you need to post in a similar situation
09:22:14  <Jupix2> and not go silent
09:22:33  <planetmaker> it was and is his turn to continue...
09:22:39  <Jupix2> you didn't tell him that
09:22:43  <Alberth> Jupix2: he knows we are here, and he has not come to ask either
09:22:44  <planetmaker> does he need you as his spokes man? Can't he talk himself?
09:22:45  <Jupix2> he can't anticipate what you need or want
09:23:05  <Alberth> Jupix2: but he can ask
09:23:15  <Jupix2> 02:26  * GT wonders why is completely ignored.
09:23:21  <Jupix2> last night here on this channel
09:23:35  <Jupix2> GMT+3 timestamp
09:24:03  <Alberth> I think we were both very much asleep at that time :)
09:24:04  <planetmaker> so, is he here?
09:24:08  <planetmaker> no.
09:24:12  <planetmaker> Was I around then? No
09:24:38  <Jupix2> *sigh*
09:24:50  <Jupix2> anyway, i'll relay what you need to him
09:25:02  <Jupix2> next time, read the thread, and reply if you're satisfied, and reply if you'
09:25:07  <Jupix2> re not satisfied
09:25:23  <Jupix2> and i'll tell him to come here more
09:25:23  <planetmaker> errm... I reply when I feel that I can add something new to a discussion
09:25:34  <Jupix2> no
09:25:37  <planetmaker> Just generating white noise in threads is not my style
09:25:40  <peter1138> meanwhile i'm loving all the content that doesn't rely on tile edges
09:26:23  <Jupix2> planetmaker: "affirmative" as a work exists for a reason
09:26:26  <Jupix2> word*
09:26:30  <andythenorth> can anyone quickly convert all my grfs to 32bpp?
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09:27:26  <Sara> hi
09:27:30  <Alberth> hi
09:27:41  <Sara> can someone give me tips how to start play ?
09:27:46  <Sara> any tutorials?
09:28:01  <Alberth> the wiki tutorials perhaps?
09:28:09  <planetmaker> there might be some on YouTube and we have a decent wiki with a tutorial
09:28:10  <Sara> im on it
09:28:28  <Alberth>
09:28:53  <Alberth> unfortunately, no youtube list at the wiki until now :(
09:29:00  <Sara> ok, starting to learn
09:29:08  <Sara> is it worth it? is this game cool ?
09:29:20  <Alberth> and you ask here?  :D
09:29:31  <Sara> yea, you right :P
09:29:59  <Alberth> it's takes time to get into it
09:30:08  <planetmaker> Sara, it might be worth also to join an MP serer and also see how others play it
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09:30:44  <Sara> u can play at one world with others?
09:30:54  <Alberth> yes
09:31:03  <Sara> wow
09:31:05  <planetmaker> of course
09:31:25  <Sara> and then everybody has one city or what?
09:31:37  <Alberth> that's one form
09:31:59  <Sara> but u have to work together to get this going ?
09:32:03  <Alberth> you can play against other people, or *with* other people. The latter is coop style
09:32:26  <Sara> oh,ok
09:32:35  <planetmaker> #openttdcoop Welcome Server </shameless plug> :-P
09:33:06  <Alberth> one of the servers I need to look into one day :)
09:33:11  <Zuu> There is also a in-game tutorial that covers road and aircraft building
09:33:19  <Sara> oh, where?
09:33:29  <Sara> i have openttd 1.2.0
09:33:34  <Zuu> In online content, search for "beginner tutorial"
09:33:37  <Alberth> oh, good point Zuu. Is that at the tutorial wiki already?
09:34:06  <Zuu> After you have downloaded it, you click on play scenario and select the beginner tutorial.
09:34:37  <Zuu> Alberth:
09:34:39  <Sara> ok,thx
09:34:52  <Sara> i see that here are some kind of srcipts too
09:34:54  <Sara> cool
09:35:08  <Zuu> Alberth: The article isn't much more than showing that it exists :-)
09:36:02  <Alberth>   doesn't show it, I think
09:36:28  <Alberth> perhaps the page is even wrong, you'd expect a kind of index page first, I'd say
09:36:53  <Sara> NAVIGATION -TODO :P
09:36:58  <Sara> tutorial
09:37:08  <Eddi|zuHause> what's this crazy talk about charging money for "shipping lanes"?!?
09:37:28  <Alberth> someone is trying to sneak IS into the game
09:37:54  <Eddi|zuHause> but for _anything_ ... just not "shipping lanes"
09:38:00  <Alberth> sounds like a nice money machine, you just claim all water, et voila :p
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09:39:43  <Alberth> I sort of like having lanes, it may work for path finding, but in an automatic way managed by the game, imho
09:39:58  <Alberth> and none of this IS stuff :)
09:40:12  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
09:40:23  <Alberth> Hmm, how to convince a town to grow? :p
09:40:35  <Eddi|zuHause> fund new buildings :)
09:40:45  <Zuu> Sara: Yes, it is not complete yet. Hopefully it can help someone, but there is for historic reasons more coverage in the wiki tutorials.
09:41:21  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: for 7,000 pound?   not going to happen :)
09:41:24  <Sara> ok, i just built an airport :D
09:41:49  <Alberth> now another one :)
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09:42:00  <welshdragon> What's with the extra zoom levels on 1.2.0?
09:42:39  <Alberth> it's for showing how ugly the current sprites are at high zoom levels
09:43:19  <Alberth> alternatively, you can use it at a high resolution screen, or when your eye-sight is non-optimal
09:43:26  <planetmaker> 11:44 Alberth: I sort of like having lanes, it may work for path finding, but in an automatic way managed by the game, imho <-- you want to become my spokes person? Or do you got a mind reader hidden somewhere?
09:43:45  <Jupix> welshdragon: it's for this: ;)
09:44:27  <welshdragon> oh, and with the depots being re-nameable, could the name be put in a sign automagically?
09:44:38  <Alberth> planetmaker: I have hidden a little box in your house during my last visit; I have had some troubles connecting to it, but it seems to work nicely now :p
09:44:48  <planetmaker> :-O
09:45:24  <planetmaker> probably somewhere in the fridge. Made it break down, I guess...
09:45:28  <welshdragon> Jupix: oh yeah, 32bpp xD
09:45:30  <Alberth> (no worries, my mind reader says you won't find it :) )
09:45:37  <planetmaker> :-)
09:46:02  <Rhamphoryncus> Alberth: if you have no money to spend but want to scum up town growth.. two truck stops on the edge of town, preferably even touching, with one truck going rapidly between them
09:46:24  <planetmaker> you could also use a bus. Might even be better
09:46:37  <planetmaker> as it gives some money ;-)
09:47:01  <Rhamphoryncus> afaik they'll grow the same, but a bus will get higher volume and eventually be problematic
09:48:13  <Eddi|zuHause> use trams :)
09:48:16  <Alberth> I have 0 houses, so buses won't do much good :)
09:48:18  <Jupix> planetmaker: also can you please reply to my forum pm, thanks :P
09:48:49  <Alberth> but another town also had 0 house, and now it has 4
09:48:51  <peter1138> Forum PMs generally get ignored. Especially the crap from pervertedmonkey.
09:49:24  <Rhamphoryncus> When demolishing towns for experiments I've often seen them regrow.  Dunno why
09:49:50  <Rhamphoryncus> Presumably a "town is NOT growing" is not so literal
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09:50:16  <planetmaker> indeed, that I honestly forgot, Jupix :-) sorry
09:50:27  <Jupix> np
09:50:49  <Rhamphoryncus> and once you have the 1 house you can plaster it with 20 stations.  So long as they get frequent service you'll get growth
09:50:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: yes, even completely unserviced towns grow at a ridiculously low speed
09:51:08  <Rhamphoryncus> Well, there might be a cap somewhere below 20 :)
09:51:09  <planetmaker> I had it even half-written... I'll forward it to you now
09:52:37  <planetmaker> in essence: we got the idea to somewhat totally modify the 'community' section of the main webpage with links to all related, like forums, facebook, google+
09:53:19  <Jupix> are there any problems with that?
09:53:20  <planetmaker> As the stuff there is quite under-represented. Also a nice introduction / show-case video or so would need be picked etc
09:53:22  <peter1138> welshdragon, extra zoom levels are there so that there are extra zoom levels. Quite simple ;-)
09:53:35  * Alberth puts more roads down so the town does not have to do that
09:54:02  <peter1138> 32bpp or 8bpp is irrevelant, we had both of them for a good few years already.
09:54:49  <planetmaker> the question wrt facebook is how to treat the different facebook pages. Dunno whether they can or should be merged or what can be done there. I'm not much into facebook
09:55:14  <Jupix> i've got that. no need for you to worry about it
09:55:26  <Jupix> in a nutshell: they can be merged
09:56:22  <Jupix> when you're implementing the community page the important part is to link to the right one, which is the one i linked before
09:56:27  <planetmaker> I shall be happy about that. But it might need the other people to agree.
09:56:49  <planetmaker> and might need talking to facebook
09:57:02  <Jupix> yeah, i've already started talking with facebook
09:57:05  <Sara> is there a shortcut to close the active window?
09:57:14  <planetmaker> ok, sweet
09:57:37  <Jupix> out of curiosity, has anyone been actually working with the html? or is it just a plan for now
09:58:25  <Alberth> Sara: not really, except delete closes all windows
09:58:43  <Sara> maybe a sricpt
09:58:46  <Rhamphoryncus> Sara: not afaik, but there's an idea: have middle click close the targeted window (shift-middle click for pinned)
09:59:18  <planetmaker> Jupix: the website itself is written in Django
09:59:19  <Sara> thats useful
09:59:53  <Sara> what should i do when a plane has smoke ?
10:00:22  <planetmaker>
10:00:35  <Jupix> planetmaker: well, yeah.. i was just using "html" as an equivalent to whatever cms you guys were using :P
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10:02:22  <drac_boy> hi
10:03:36  <Alberth> Sara: not much, it shows 'breakdown'. If it happens often, you may want to consider sending it more often for servicing
10:03:54  <Sara> ok,thx
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10:13:24  <welshdragon> seeing as nobody answered my second question: with the depots being re-nameable, could the name be put in a sign automagically?
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10:17:27  <drac_boy> I'll prefer not to, especially with depots next to station and having overlapped labels
10:17:40  <drac_boy> unless you can find a way to turn on or off selective labels which I doubt it :)
10:19:20  <Alberth> I turn station labels already off :)
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10:21:00  <drac_boy> I always have it on...but then I always have everything renamed...except trains themself
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10:25:47  <andythenorth> bah
10:25:51  <andythenorth> alberth beat me
10:26:02  <Alberth> :)
10:26:26  <Alberth> the game is a bit slow, so I have time to browse the forum :)
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10:40:57  <Sara> ok, done the tutorial
10:41:04  <Sara> now i started a game
10:41:10  <Sara> whats the first thing to do ?
10:42:55  <Eddi|zuHause> many people start with a route from a coal mine to a power station
10:44:07  <FLHerne> Are you using any grfs, or just default everything?
10:44:36  <Sara> grfs?
10:45:32  <FLHerne> Basically, you can replace/improve pretty much anything in the game
10:46:08  <FLHerne> Links..." target="_blank">
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10:47:11  <FLHerne> They can do everything from replacing the graphics for trees to adding about 20 new industries :P
10:49:34  <Alberth> first just play with the default settings :)
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10:53:03  <FLHerne> Alberth: Possibly good advice ECS/FIRS can be a bit daunting  ;)
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10:54:19  <Alberth> are you trying to scare off new players?? :)
10:54:44  <Sara> trying to connect the power station
10:55:10  <FLHerne> Alberth: Nah, but explaining the existence of NewGRFs is probably a good idea :D
10:55:36  * Alberth agrees
10:55:57  <drac_boy> heh FLHerne I dunno, I'll rather not
10:56:05  <drac_boy> :)
10:57:38  <FLHerne> Once tried to show a friend OTTD but didn't remove my standard (huge) grf list...
10:58:25  <FLHerne> Luckily he stuck around long enough to remove them and start another game :D
11:01:05  * FLHerne wanders off
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11:05:39  <andythenorth> ooh
11:05:45  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause made a tutorial for pixa :)
11:05:46  <andythenorth> thanks
11:13:50  <andythenorth> no frosch :(
11:14:21  <andythenorth> is there a peter1138?
11:14:37  * andythenorth is thinking of hacking this in:
11:17:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so why make a flag, when you could just as well make a industry-construction-callback?
11:18:08  <andythenorth> because I'm not sure a new cb is needed?
11:18:17  <andythenorth> it could gain a new cb number and do the same thing though
11:20:00  <Eddi|zuHause> new callbacks are cheap ;)
11:20:30  <andythenorth> brb
11:33:09  <peter1138> cheepcheep
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11:38:37  <Sara> is there a shortcut for pause?
11:39:48  <Eddi|zuHause> F1 or Pause
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11:40:16  <Sara> thx
11:41:29  <Eddi|zuHause> F2, F3 and so on operate the other keys in the menu bar. except fast forward
11:42:08  <Sara> ok, is there a way to delete only trafficlight on the railroads, not whole tracks?
11:42:58  <Eddi|zuHause> select build signal, and then the bulldozer (or "R" key)
11:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause> works the same way with individual rail bits, or single station tiles
11:43:54  <Sara> ok, that saved me a lot of money :P
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11:45:46  <Eddi|zuHause> also "A", "S", "Q"/"W"/E" and "D" are important keys for me :)
11:47:01  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and the most important of all: "X"
11:49:04  * drac_boy would had also noted T to build tunnels too except that ottd treats it badly wrong :)
11:49:06  <drac_boy> heh heh
11:49:16  <Zuu> and Ctrl+X
11:49:45  <Zuu> (to gain better control over the transparency)
11:51:23  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so the flag is intended to be a cb flag, not a special flag (dunno if that was clear)
11:51:55  <andythenorth> and I guess the cb would need a new number so it can be explicitly handled in the grf
11:52:37  <andythenorth> but in other respects it just runs the production change cb
11:52:48  <andythenorth> I don't see any reason to make it more complex...
11:54:54  <Sara> how to remove two broke trains, they run into each other?
11:57:12  <drac_boy> wait for it to self-cleanup
11:57:15  <drac_boy> thats all you can do
11:57:25  <drac_boy> why did you crash them in first place tho? heh heh
11:59:06  <Sara> :p i have  2 trains
11:59:14  <Sara> they go to the same power station
11:59:29  <Sara> i cant figure out the signals right
12:00:34  <Sara> how do i make screenshots ?
12:00:43  <Sara> i can show u what ive done :P
12:02:08  <planetmaker> ctrl+s
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12:09:49  <Sara> Wielki Transport, 28my Lis 1954.png
12:10:51  <Sara> i want the trains to go only if they can
12:13:33  <planetmaker>  that image doesn't load for me... nor does the main webpage of that host appear here
12:13:58  <planetmaker> maybe try
12:14:45  <Alberth> you need to copy the entire line :)
12:14:59  <drac_boy> sara you need more than one tile for stations
12:15:11  <drac_boy> otherwise over-lengthed trains = takes a long time to load at all
12:16:00  <planetmaker> Alberth, I did... but my browser was connecting to the host for minutes...
12:16:16  <Alberth> place a two-way block signal at the left-green and the red dot
12:16:24  <planetmaker> or rather waiting for
12:16:25  <Sara> ok, but how do i coordinate the two trains to wait for each other
12:16:54  <Alberth> they do that by themselves
12:17:36  <Alberth> there can be only one train in a 'block', an area of tracks that has no signal in them
12:17:54  <telanus> planetmaker:
12:18:14  <telanus> uloaded sara's pic
12:18:17  <planetmaker> works, thx, telanus
12:18:33  <Sara> which one is the two way?
12:18:45  <Sara> number from the left ?
12:19:06  <planetmaker> Sara, in the setup as you show, I'd set a signal each at the red dot and the left green dot. Both facing towards the junction, if they're path signals. Or two-way block signals
12:19:32  <planetmaker> two-way is the one with two signals. You switch between one-way and two-way by clicking on the built signal
12:19:45  <planetmaker> or shift-clicking. Don't recall :-P
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12:23:20  <Alberth> Sara:
12:23:47  <Alberth> at the right are two-way block signals, at the left are path signals
12:24:22  <Sara>
12:24:27  <Sara> i did it wrong :(
12:24:50  <planetmaker> no, you didn't do it wrong, sara
12:24:51  <Alberth> sorry, my image is wrong
12:25:16  * Alberth has trouble with left and right :)
12:25:19  <planetmaker> depends on where your powerplant is, Alberth :-)
12:25:31  <planetmaker> in the upper left: also correct :-)
12:25:45  <planetmaker> I like your rail NewGRF ;-)
12:26:31  <Alberth> image updated, sorry for the confusion
12:26:42  <andythenorth> so what number should this new cb have?
12:26:48  <planetmaker> n+1
12:27:10  <Sara> i still dont know how to do it in my case
12:27:17  <planetmaker> you did it right, Sara !
12:27:29  <Sara> its not working
12:27:42  <Sara> the trains are w8 in front of each other
12:27:42  <planetmaker> the image you posted shows that it works...
12:27:57  <planetmaker> unless they go to the same two stations...
12:28:37  <andythenorth> cb 15F - production change on industry construction
12:28:45  <andythenorth> now how to add it? :P
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12:30:04  <planetmaker> there's already a production change callback. Its code should just be re-used
12:30:14  <andythenorth> yes, that's my proposal ;)
12:30:26  <planetmaker> thus check how the 256 tick, ... callbacks are implemented
12:30:29  <andythenorth>
12:30:43  <andythenorth> what I don't know is if I can reuse IndustryMonthlyLoop()
12:30:55  <andythenorth> or if I have to duplicate everything in that to a new function
12:31:06  <andythenorth> L2681 in industry_cmd.cpp
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12:31:17  <Sara> i have to start over
12:31:23  <andythenorth> I would literally be duplicating it just to prevent the name being wrong afaict :P
12:31:25  <Sara> it dosnt work
12:32:00  <andythenorth> hmm
12:32:18  <andythenorth> maybe not, IndustryMonthlyLoop() does all industries, whereas during construction one industry is in scope
12:32:19  <andythenorth> I assume
12:32:49  <planetmaker> IndustryMonthlyLoop() surely also calls somewhere the prod. change CB of the industry - if defined
12:33:01  <andythenorth> yes.  The puzzling bit is I don't know if I need to do the stuff like backup company etc
12:33:03  <planetmaker> the rest is - from your perspective - clutter
12:33:18  <andythenorth> unless it's essential for reasons I don't understand :P
12:33:45  <andythenorth> UpdateIndustryStatistics should be meaningless at this point, as it's just been constructed
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12:34:08  <andythenorth> SetWindowDirty might be needed
12:34:58  <andythenorth> or maybe not, maybe DoCreateNewIndustry() handles that already
12:34:59  <andythenorth> meh
12:35:06  <andythenorth> :)
12:35:22  <andythenorth> this is a worthwhile patch though
12:35:29  <planetmaker> that's where you want to check for the callback being needed, yes.
12:35:56  <andythenorth> ok, I'll try it and see what goes wrong
12:36:00  <andythenorth> nobody has said it's stupid
12:36:11  <planetmaker> "it's stupid"
12:36:15  <andythenorth> ok
12:36:15  <planetmaker> to not want it :-P
12:36:19  * andythenorth place bet that reasons will be found to not include it
12:36:39  <andythenorth> but anyway, patch first, moan later :P
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12:41:47  <planetmaker> Sara, you'll also find after many years of playing constructions where you'll think "wth, why doesn't it work like I thought" :-)
12:42:10  <Sara> :)
12:42:14  <planetmaker> building intricate networks is on of the major fun in this game. For me at least
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12:42:28  <planetmaker> there's a zillion ways to play this game, though
12:42:56  * drac_boy usually plays in the style of individual lines tho
12:43:04  <drac_boy> but thats to our own habit/style I guess :)
12:44:48  <Sara> i get back to this later
12:44:51  <Sara> thx for all
12:44:52  <Sara> bye
12:45:04  <Alberth> bye
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12:45:41  <drac_boy> andythenorth have fun btw :-P  I'm going for a while now. got two things to do -_-
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12:52:34  <andythenorth> ok
12:52:40  <andythenorth> this not nearly so easy as I thought
12:52:42  <andythenorth> :(
12:52:51  * andythenorth needs help from actual....developer
12:53:27  <andythenorth> ChangeIndustryProduction assumes either monthly or random production change cb
12:53:33  <andythenorth> I can't just reuse it elsewhere
12:53:40  <andythenorth> has to be unpicked :P
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13:01:19  <andythenorth> checking for the cb twice seems stupid
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13:13:09  <andythenorth> if I have
13:13:09  <andythenorth> 	bool callback_enabled = HasBit(indspec->callback_mask, monthly ? CBM_IND_MONTHLYPROD_CHANGE : CBM_IND_PRODUCTION_CHANGE);
13:13:30  <andythenorth> can I simply append ': CBM_IND_PROD_CHANGE_BUILD' with another
13:13:57  <andythenorth> another / it /s
13:18:03  <andythenorth> looks a bit like an OR to me :P
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13:22:12  <andythenorth> quak
13:23:27  <andythenorth> uncanny timing :P
13:24:02  <andythenorth> so how do I write this so it *will* compile?
13:24:02  <andythenorth> 	bool callback_enabled = HasBit(indspec->callback_mask, monthly ? CBM_IND_MONTHLYPROD_CHANGE : CBM_IND_PRODUCTION_CHANGE : CBM_IND_PROD_CHANGE_BUILD);
13:24:05  <andythenorth> currently fails :P
13:27:31  <andythenorth> so this is the ternary operator?
13:27:34  <frosch123> not enough information
13:27:39  * andythenorth might need some comp sci boot camp :P
13:28:28  <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm trying to patch to add an industry cb which will call ChangeIndustryProduction() from DoCreateNewIndustry()
13:28:40  <andythenorth> e.g. call production change on industry construction
13:30:07  <andythenorth> I've added CBM_IND_PROD_CHANGE_BUILD and CBID_INDUSTRY_PROD_CHANGE_BUILD to newgrf_callbacks.h
13:31:33  <andythenorth> and I've added 	ChangeIndustryProduction(i, false); to DoCreateNewIndustry()
13:32:44  <NGC3982> hm, i think i need a tip on train- or bus grfs
13:32:47  <NGC3982> <1950
13:32:58  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: can't have two :
13:33:12  * andythenorth learns something
13:33:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so what is the logic you are trying to write?
13:33:38  <andythenorth> if (cb = monthly or cb = random or cb = on_build)
13:34:31  <andythenorth> L2456 in industry_cmd.cpp
13:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's an "if-then-else" operator. ite(a) { if (a) { return b; } else {return c; } }
13:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause> err.. ite(a,b,c)
13:35:22  <andythenorth> ah
13:35:33  <andythenorth> I was reading the purpose of that wrong then
13:35:50  <andythenorth> so that's evaluating if it's the monthly cb or not
13:35:56  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so what you probably rather want to say is "for bit in [bit1, bit2, bit3]: result |= HasBit(mask, bit)"
13:36:30  <Eddi|zuHause> or did i understand you wrong?
13:36:34  <andythenorth> I'm not sure
13:36:53  <andythenorth> I thought I knew what this block of code did, but I read it again and maybe I don't
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13:37:39  <Chris_Booth> andythenorth that is so often the case!
13:38:12  <andythenorth> nothing I've learnt in 15 years of scripting prepares me for C++ :P
13:39:17  <andythenorth> so the bool 'monthly' is passed to ChangeIndustryProduction() so it knows what cb is in use
13:39:35  <andythenorth> but adding a third possible cb value won't work their
13:39:37  <andythenorth> there /s
13:39:44  <andythenorth> so either not a bool, or another bool
13:40:24  <andythenorth> can I safely pass around the actual CB number and check that as a case?
13:43:31  <Eddi|zuHause> turn the bool into an enum
13:43:40  <andythenorth> enum is a list type?
13:43:52  <Eddi|zuHause> no, a named numerical type
13:44:18  * andythenorth googles
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13:44:34  <Eddi|zuHause> enum Colours { RED = 1, YELLOW = 2, GREEN = 3}
13:44:43  <andythenorth> so I don't need a named type?
13:45:09  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can assign "colour = 1" or "colour = RED"
13:45:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and do "colour = colour + 1"
13:45:42  <andythenorth> and when I want to do something conditional with the value?
13:45:54  <planetmaker> they're just values
13:46:09  <andythenorth> so I have to write 'if foo == 1'
13:46:10  <andythenorth> ?
13:46:14  <Eddi|zuHause> switch (colour) { case RED: blah; case GREEN: blah2; default: blah3; }
13:46:19  <andythenorth> or 'if foo == RED'
13:46:23  <planetmaker> both work
13:46:24  <Eddi|zuHause> you can do both
13:46:48  <andythenorth> ¿ and I don't want to mix this up with values like CBM_IND_MONTHLYPROD_CHANGE
13:46:55  <andythenorth> that would be wrong?
13:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
13:47:40  <andythenorth> so enum CallbackType { MONTHLY = 0, RANDOM = 1, BUILD = 2}
13:47:40  <andythenorth> ?
13:48:04  <Eddi|zuHause> almost
13:49:09  <andythenorth> can I declare the enum inside the function parameters for ChangeIndustryProduction()?  Or does it have to be outside the function?
13:49:10  <Eddi|zuHause> probably something like "typedef enum IndustryCallbackTypes { ICT_MONTHLY, ICT_RANDOM, ICT_CONSTRUCTION } IndustryCallbackType;"
13:49:24  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it has to be in a header file
13:49:33  <Eddi|zuHause> (or it should be)
13:50:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you can leave out the = 0, =1 etc. if it starts with 0 and increments by 1 each time
13:50:43  <Eddi|zuHause> the typedef is an ease of use thingie
13:51:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the type can be either named as "enum IndustryCallbackTypes" every time you declare a variable, or "IndustryCallbackType", saving you the "enum"
13:52:56  <andythenorth> k
13:53:32  <andythenorth> any clue which header file it should be in?  I'm modifying industry_cmd.cpp
13:53:39  <andythenorth> there's no accompanying industry_cmd.h
13:53:54  <andythenorth> industry.h?
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13:57:44  <Eddi|zuHause> industry_type.h
13:57:56  <Eddi|zuHause> because it's a type
14:02:01  <andythenorth> ta
14:02:33  * NGC3982 loves the NUTS trainset.
14:03:03  <Chris_Booth> NGC3982 thank V453000 for that
14:03:36  <NGC3982> i just started using it
14:03:47  <NGC3982> ive been longing for a very early set like that
14:03:55  <NGC3982> starting at 1920 makes a whole new feel
14:04:02  <NGC3982> Chris_Booth: what, he made it? :)
14:04:09  <Chris_Booth> yes he did
14:04:19  <Chris_Booth> read the NewGRF thingy
14:04:25  <NGC3982> neat!
14:04:39  <NGC3982> V453000: great work with the NUTS train set.
14:05:50  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: This is C++, not C :) No need for the typedef stuff or an "enum" in front of variable declarations.
14:06:02  <Chris_Booth> have you played it all the way to 3000 NGC3982?
14:06:08  <NGC3982> Chris_Booth: nope, just started.
14:06:14  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: hm... then i remember old things :)
14:06:45  <andythenorth>
14:06:54  <andythenorth> so I've added that to industry_type.cpp
14:06:57  <andythenorth> oops .h
14:07:08  *** fonsinchen [] has joined #openttd
14:07:09  <V453000> :) thanks NGC3982
14:07:33  <andythenorth> so I want to change this from 'bool monthly'
14:07:33  <andythenorth> static void ChangeIndustryProduction(Industry *i, bool monthly)
14:07:39  <Chris_Booth> well NGC3982 it goes all the way to 3000 and you get a train every few years
14:07:45  <V453000> lol
14:07:51  <andythenorth> static void ChangeIndustryProduction(Industry *i, enum CallbackType)
14:07:52  <andythenorth> ?
14:07:58  <NGC3982> Chris_Booth: neat^googolplex.
14:08:39  *** kkb110 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:09:02  *** kkb110 [] has joined #openttd
14:09:22  <NGC3982> V453000: when do you feel it suitable to start using the electical engines in the NUTS grf?
14:09:53  <michi_cc> andythenorth:
14:10:05  <andythenorth> Internal Server Error :P
14:10:20  <planetmaker> delete you cookies
14:10:21  <michi_cc> Ah, the 'reply' error :)
14:10:40  <andythenorth> does that pastebin require cookies?
14:10:46  <planetmaker> works for me, the link, michi_cc
14:10:53  <V453000> NGC3982: depends what your network looks like :)
14:10:55  <planetmaker> andythenorth, it has some session cookie
14:11:06  <andythenorth> does it have a cookies statement?
14:11:10  *** goodger [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:11:18  <planetmaker> a what?
14:12:11  <andythenorth> under EU law, enforceable from May (in the UK), users have to give explicit permission for cookies
14:12:26  <planetmaker> UK law is not applicable to me
14:12:32  <andythenorth> EU law will be
14:12:33  <planetmaker>
14:12:34  <andythenorth> where is the server?
14:12:46  <andythenorth> (there is an exemption for session cookies, but a clear cookie statement is still required)
14:13:14  <andythenorth> anyway
14:13:19  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Expanded example:
14:13:22  <andythenorth> it's an insane law and hardly anyone is going to comply :P
14:13:37  <andythenorth> michi_cc: thanks
14:13:59  <andythenorth> currently I have a non-compiling openttd, and a toddler sitting on me saying 'make choo choo'
14:13:59  <michi_cc> CBID_IND_PROD_CHANGE_BUILD actually, not CBM_IND_PROD_CHANGE_BUILD (Assuming you named the stuff properly)
14:14:11  <andythenorth> he knows the terminal window builds openttd :P
14:14:42  <michi_cc> Always have a second checkout around :)
14:16:44  <NGC3982> V453000: i guess.
14:16:52  <NGC3982> V453000: tis' be really neat, anyhow.
14:17:19  <V453000> all train classes are useful in some way. You just have the ability to choose the best one for your network
14:20:25  *** Sara [] has joined #openttd
14:20:49  <Sara> hi again :)
14:21:19  <Mazur> Hello.
14:22:12  <andythenorth> michi_cc: look plausible?
14:22:25  <andythenorth> sorry I had to paste long code to avoid breaking context :P
14:22:48  <andythenorth> L1 and L15-25 are the changes
14:23:24  <michi_cc> "bool callback_enabled = (cb != NOT_REACHED);" doesn't make sense. NOT_REACHED isn't some assignment, but a macro that will bomb you out to an error message :)
14:24:06  <andythenorth> ok
14:24:08  <andythenorth> hmm
14:24:30  <andythenorth> isn't something like 'if cb == None' better there?  but I'm thinking python
14:26:33  <Mazur> michi_cc, != is not an assignment, either, it's a comparison, with a result, that presumably can be assigned.
14:27:01  <michi_cc> "default: NOT_REACHED();" doesn't do anything, it is only there to a) raise an assert if somebody passes garbage in type, and b) to prevent warnings on some compilers.
14:28:02  <michi_cc> Anyway, the switch I pasted is only the the callback param to GetIndustryCallback and should be inside "if (callback_enabled)". The callback enabled stuff needs a second switch.
14:29:01  <andythenorth> ok
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14:29:34  <andythenorth> that would check CBM_ rather CBID_
14:29:36  <michi_cc> Instead of cb = ... you'd use callback_enabled = HasBit(... there.
14:31:34  <andythenorth> do I check for any valid cb being enabled?
14:31:50  <andythenorth> or do I have to check for each of the known prod. cbs specifically?
14:32:31  <andythenorth> i.e. 'callback_enabled = true if (monthly or random or build)'
14:32:45  <andythenorth> or 'if build (check bitmask for build)' etc
14:33:35  <Saraa> what do i do with wheat?
14:34:30  <michi_cc> You have to check for the CB you want to execute, checking for some other CB doesn't make much sense.
14:34:40  *** Sara [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:35:58  *** Saraa [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
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14:36:36  <planetmaker> Saraa, check the industry tree. click the industry you got it from and you'll find that button
14:37:31  * NGC3982 tries a load loop.
14:37:37  <planetmaker>
14:38:42  <NGC3982>
14:38:49  <NGC3982> should that improve rating?
14:41:15  <Saraa> ok, got it
14:41:25  <Saraa> why is my train button noe enabled ?
14:41:30  <Saraa> why is my train button not enabled ?
14:42:26  <Alberth> train button?
14:42:31  <andythenorth> so I need to wrap 'cb_enabled = ( cb = ICT_MONTHLY && if hasbit = CBM_IND_MONTHLYPROD_CHANGE) || (other checks)'
14:42:40  <Saraa> the button where u build rails
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14:43:00  <Alberth> too early in game years?
14:43:11  <Saraa> oh
14:43:15  <Saraa> right :)
14:43:20  * andythenorth should find pseudo code that *doesn't* look like bad C++ :P
14:44:16  * Alberth hopes some =-es are actually == :)
14:44:30  <Saraa> what do i do now
14:44:35  <Saraa> i cant build anything
14:44:36  <Saraa> :P
14:44:45  <andythenorth> Alberth indeed
14:45:05  <andythenorth> CallbackID seems magical
14:45:12  <Alberth> either wait until the game has progressed enough, or regenerate with a better starting year
14:45:21  <andythenorth> there's nothing that assigns declares it as the value of the parameter IndustryCallbackType
14:45:27  <andythenorth> +or
14:45:29  <Alberth> where 'wait' can be done with the fast-forward >> button
14:45:55  <Alberth> default starting year is 1950
14:46:06  <Alberth> I think a bit before there are vehicles
14:47:14  <Alberth> newgrf_callbacks.h   22:enum CallbackID {   <-- like here? :)
14:48:20  <Alberth> or maybe I don't understand your question :)
14:48:41  <andythenorth> hmm
14:48:50  <andythenorth> hard to phrase whilst entertaining a toddler
14:49:04  <andythenorth> currently ChangeIndustryProduction is passed a bool for 'monthly'
14:49:10  <andythenorth> which I'm replacing with an enum
14:49:15  <andythenorth> it's used to figure out the cb type
14:49:25  <Alberth> ok
14:49:26  <andythenorth> but then I'm using it to check the cb type?
14:49:31  <andythenorth> seems confusing
14:49:56  <Alberth> more like the cb to call would be my first guess
14:50:02  <andythenorth> ah
14:50:27  <Mazur> Goddamn the popes asses!
14:50:30  *** kkb110 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:50:43  <Alberth> it's a cb from newgrf perspective, and a function to call from openttd perspective :)
14:50:51  <Mazur> The cabinet has gone the way of all cheap furniture.
14:50:53  * andythenorth is assisting with watering the garden
14:50:59  *** Tanguy [~tanguy@2a01:e34:ee8f:150:208:9bff:febe:e3d3] has joined #openttd
14:51:02  <Tanguy> Hello.
14:51:03  <Mazur> Rejoice, one and all!
14:51:05  <NGC3982> programming and gardening
14:51:05  <andythenorth> my laptop is being rained on :P
14:51:08  <NGC3982> what a life <3.
14:51:32  <andythenorth> yes, the toddler is watering the garden in the rain
14:51:33  <Alberth> hi Tanguy
14:52:01  <Tanguy> I have heard that the new version 1.2.0 has some kind of support for 32bpp graphics (although I am quite sure that I already heard something like that quite before that last release).
14:52:02  <Alberth> andythenorth: of course his water is much better than the stuff from the sky :p
14:53:03  <Alberth> Tanguy: yep, and yep
14:53:10  <Tanguy> I went through the wiki and saw quite a lot of distinct, sometimes incompatible explanations on where to download files to get [32 bit graphics, perhaps extra zoom levels?] and what to do to enable them.
14:53:35  <NGC3982>
14:53:38  <Alberth> having support != have graphics :)
14:53:50  <Tanguy> Sure.
14:54:00  <NGC3982> the moment when you forget you added a swedish house set and notices your country flag everywhere on the map.
14:54:43  <Tanguy> Now, somehow I got a file called 32bit-gfx-nightly-megapack-2011-04-16.tar, which I put to my ~/.openttd/newgrf, and defined [misc] blitter = 32bpp-simple in openttd.cfg.
14:55:03  <Tanguy> Which changed absolutely nothing. I guess this is not the way to go?
14:55:15  <Alberth> Tanguy: there was a patch for 32bpp graphics + extra zoom. A little while before 1.2 was a similar idea merged into trunk, and it is now in the 1.2 release
14:55:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i kinda doubt that will work
14:55:27  <Alberth> the old patch does not work any more
14:55:43  <Tanguy> Okay. I am using OpenTTD 1.2.0 from Debian sid.
14:56:08  <Alberth> and so far nobody has made a useful new graphics newgrf
14:56:57  <Tanguy> Okay, so I guess I should just forget that for now.
14:57:01  <Alberth> but much more important, there are not many graphics yet
14:57:20  <Alberth> so that's where help is needed
14:58:06  <Tanguy> Well, too bad I suck at graphics then.
14:58:23  <Alberth> this is your chance to get good at it :p
14:59:21  <Mazur> 3 cheers for the Dutch cabinet!
15:00:37  <Mazur> Gone to pieces like a softboard dining table.
15:00:42  <Mazur> Yay!
15:05:08  <andythenorth>
15:05:10  <andythenorth> L16-20
15:05:10  <andythenorth> ??
15:05:13  <andythenorth> might work?
15:05:45  <andythenorth> I assume that ICT_MONTHLY etc are magically in scope
15:06:41  *** Devedse [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:07:45  <andythenorth> doesn't compile :P
15:07:57  <andythenorth> 10 errors
15:08:21  * andythenorth really hoped that if stat was enough
15:08:33  <andythenorth> agh, typing with toddlers :P
15:08:50  <frosch123> <- hmm, who would be offended if i would post that doing 1000 useful posts is indeed a challenge? :p
15:10:43  <FLHerne> Tanguy: About the only new-style 32bpp grf is the 8/32bpp Trains one
15:12:47  *** Devedse [] has joined #openttd
15:14:34  <michi_cc> andythenorth: You want to check if the callback type is ICT_MONTHLY and the monthly CBM is set, or ....., don't you? Which translates directly to "type == ICT_MONTHLY && HasBit(...) || ....". Alternatively, and better readably especially if there every would be a forth type, use a switch as well, replacing e.g. "cb = CBID_INDUSTRY_MONTHLYPROD_CHANGE" with "callback_enabled = HasBit(this->callback_mask, CBM_IND_MONTHLYPROD_CHANGE)" and so on.
15:14:58  <Saraa> where do i deliver houses?
15:16:21  <andythenorth> michi_cc: I prefer the switch ;)
15:16:54  <andythenorth> so in this line "static void ChangeIndustryProduction(Industry *i, IndustryCallbackType type)"
15:17:03  <andythenorth> is type a keyword, or a variable name?
15:17:26  <michi_cc> A variable name, like always in C(++).
15:18:14  <michi_cc> [storage class] Type [additional specifiers] Name [= Initializer];
15:18:59  <andythenorth> k
15:19:42  <FLHerne> Saraa: Deliver houses??
15:19:50  <Saraa> i produce houses
15:19:57  <Saraa> what do i do with that ?
15:20:19  <michi_cc> The only ugly thing in C++ variable/paramenter declarations is the * operator, because it is right-associative. It means "pointer to type" (i.e. "Industry *i" means that i is a pointer to an variable of type Industry), but it binds to the name, not the type.
15:20:55  <FLHerne> Saraa: Do you mean passengers?
15:20:59  * FLHerne is confused
15:21:08  <Saraa> i have a factory
15:21:11  <michi_cc> So contrary to what you might except "int * a, b;" to do, it does not declare *two* pointers, but just one. "int * a, * b;" would do that instead.
15:21:21  <Saraa> and its producing smth
15:21:27  <Saraa> what do i do with that
15:22:21  <michi_cc> Saraa: You find and industry that accepts it, except if it is Goods, Mail or Passengers, which have to be delivered to a town.
15:22:45  <Saraa> i have goods
15:22:49  <michi_cc> (and Food if you play in tropical or artic climate).
15:23:05  <Saraa> just transport to the town ?
15:24:29  <michi_cc> You need a station that accepts Goods, which in turn means a station that has enough big houses in its converage. If you are building a station, you should see two lines for what the station would accept and supply (I hope, unless that is for whatever reason not enabled by default).
15:25:45  <michi_cc> Like in
15:26:24  <Saraa> i just transport the goods to a station in the town
15:26:30  <Saraa> where it is attached to houses
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15:28:54  <michi_cc> A station doesn't need to be attached to anything, you can see what is covered if you turn on the coverage are highlight. A station will accept Goods if enough houses that accept goods are in the coverage area. Small towns might not have enough such houses, but bigger towns generally have.
15:31:48  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:32:51  * andythenorth now has only 4 errors :P
15:33:24  <andythenorth> gah
15:33:31  <andythenorth> wtf is 'monthly' also being used for?
15:33:44  <andythenorth> it's a bool, yet seems to be able to store value of economy type :P
15:33:49  <andythenorth> L2500 in industry_cmd.cpp
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15:35:02  * andythenorth figures that one out
15:37:03  *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
15:37:34  <andythenorth> how do I put 'ChangeIndustryProduction()' in scope for 'DoCreateNewIndustry()'
15:37:34  <andythenorth> ?
15:39:35  <andythenorth> In function ‘void DoCreateNewIndustry(Industry*, TileIndex, IndustryType, const IndustryTileTable*, byte, Town*, Owner, uint16)’:
15:39:44  <andythenorth> src/industry_cmd.cpp:1722: error: ‘ChangeIndustryProduction’ was not declared in this scope
15:39:50  * NGC3982 watches the matrix and wants a new map type.
15:42:45  <andythenorth> hmm
15:43:05  <andythenorth> is ChangeIndustryProduction() only in scope if an industry object is in scope?
15:43:14  <frosch123> oh no, i found a typo in a 4 years old post of mine, now i cannot edit it to fix it :p
15:43:16  <NGC3982> i cant decide if a matrix or tron map type would be preferable.
15:43:34  <NGC3982> a 01 map would be really, really cool
15:43:50  <andythenorth> oh
15:43:50  <NGC3982> since the matrix universe has quite detailed info on harversters and battery fields.
15:44:07  <andythenorth> in C++ does a function have to be declared before any call to it?
15:44:16  <andythenorth> similar to...other languages :P
15:44:22  <NGC3982> it does in C#, afaik.
15:44:34  * NGC3982 thinks.
15:45:09  <andythenorth> frosch123 can I call ChangeIndustryProduction() from L1722 if it's declared on L2442? :P
15:46:18  <frosch123> why are you actually using that function?
15:46:33  <frosch123> 80% of its return values make no sense on construction
15:46:42  <andythenorth> to avoid duplication?
15:47:07  <andythenorth> the only value that I thought didn't make sense was 'close'
15:47:09  <frosch123> better create a new callback to set production rate (and multipliers!) as well as spawning custom news messages for opening instead of the default ones
15:47:12  <andythenorth> and even that could be valid
15:47:31  <andythenorth> which other values did I miss being invalid? :)
15:47:51  <frosch123> it makes no sense to spawn two news messages at the same time
15:48:00  <frosch123> one about being opened, one about a production change
15:48:16  <andythenorth> I was going to suppress the news message depending on cb type...
15:48:21  <frosch123> also you would likely change the news item depending on the funding method
15:48:28  <andythenorth> true
15:48:29  <frosch123> though i guess there is already a variable for that
15:48:42  <andythenorth> I don't mind an entirely new cb...
15:48:54  <andythenorth> I'm just hacking as the best way to get opinions :P
15:49:00  <andythenorth> seems to beat pondering
15:49:12  <frosch123> oh, i thought custom news was the idea behind using a similiar callback :s
15:49:25  <frosch123> without news it makes even less sense to use the same return values
15:50:50  <andythenorth> in my case, all I need is the ability to shift current production multiplier (rate?) by some value)
15:51:01  <andythenorth> if it's done cleanly, and there are other cases in future...
15:51:07  <andythenorth> ...they could be added as return values?
15:51:50  <frosch123> you could just return the value directly
15:52:06  <andythenorth> is the current value available to me during construction?
15:52:12  <andythenorth> or is it always 16 at build?
15:52:13  <frosch123> why so complicated case for double/half/custom value?
15:52:22  <frosch123> yes, it's always 16
15:52:31  <andythenorth> I thought it would just be simpler to reuse existing code :P
15:52:35  <andythenorth> hence modify ChangeIndustryProduction()
15:52:44  <andythenorth> if it's not .... then it's not
15:53:34  *** tokai|mdlx [] has joined #openttd
15:54:23  * andythenorth hacks
15:54:42  <frosch123> so, i think something like: bits 0-7 production rate, bit 8: use custom news message from register 100 or so
15:55:18  <andythenorth> something like this, in DoCreateNewIndustry?
15:55:19  <andythenorth>
15:55:33  <andythenorth> with error checking and bit unpacking
15:55:49  <frosch123> likely you want 7 or 8 bits, not 4
15:55:57  *** Chris_Booth [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 12.0/20120411064248]]
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15:57:19  <andythenorth> what error checking do I need to do?
15:57:54  <frosch123> i guess clamp the returned range
15:58:00  <frosch123> similar to ChangeProduction
15:58:08  *** Devedse [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:58:09  <frosch123> maybe you also need to calculate the production rate
15:58:50  <frosch123> i.e. call RecomputeProductionMultipliers();
15:59:12  <frosch123> i->prod_level = Clamp(GB(GetRegister(0x100), 16, 8), PRODLEVEL_MINIMUM, PRODLEVEL_MAXIMUM); <- i guess do something like that for the return value
15:59:38  *** tokai|noir [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:00:38  * andythenorth tests a compile
16:01:28  <frosch123> maybe also call ErrorUnknownCallbackResult if the returned value is too big
16:02:51  <NGC3982> how much can i expect town growth to increase if i add roads to it?
16:03:25  <NGC3982> is there some irrational value to how easy new buildings form around adjacent roads?
16:03:33  <NGC3982> rational*
16:03:51  <frosch123> iirc everytime a town decides to grow it either plants a road or a house
16:04:02  <andythenorth> something like?
16:04:02  <andythenorth> 			if (GB(res, 8, 11) != 0) ErrorUnknownCallbackResult(indspec->grf_prop.grffile->grfid, CBID_INDUSTRY_PROD_CHANGE_BUILD, res);
16:04:03  <frosch123> so, if there are already roads, it is more likely to plant houses
16:04:06  <andythenorth> with correct values?
16:04:32  <frosch123> yup, with correct values :)
16:04:33  <andythenorth> does it need to break?
16:04:42  <andythenorth> some cbs seem to break on error, some don't
16:04:51  <frosch123> they break loops
16:05:02  <frosch123> but you won't be able to cancel construction at that point
16:05:04  <NGC3982> frosch123: thus, adding roads myself doesnt help the town grow? or do i help it choose between roads or houses (since the roads is already there, in that extent)? :)
16:05:16  <frosch123> yes, the latter
16:05:39  <andythenorth> hmm
16:05:43  <andythenorth> correct values
16:05:47  <frosch123> basically you can increase the house construction by the amount a town builds roads without you
16:06:29  <NGC3982> frosch123: ah, i see.
16:06:32  <NGC3982> frosch123: thank you.
16:07:07  <frosch123> you're welcome
16:08:44  <andythenorth> frosch123: I should check if res > PRODLEVEL_MAXIMUM ?
16:08:50  <andythenorth> and < PRODLEVEL_MINIMUM ?
16:08:51  <V453000> it is possible to grow a town to about 2 million population if you provide enough roads
16:09:05  <V453000> above 2 millions, but it is very hard afterwards
16:09:30  <Saraa> If i have a simple cross in rails what signals should i use ?
16:10:57  <frosch123> andythenorth: yeah, might be useful as well
16:11:18  <frosch123> V453000: the population is meaningless
16:11:28  <frosch123> a town growth in number of houses
16:11:37  <V453000> true
16:11:39  <frosch123> how much population a house is depends on the grf
16:11:49  <NGC3982> i fail to see how the size can be relevant
16:12:02  <NGC3982> unless station spread is set to some kind of witchcraft.
16:12:04  <frosch123> if you use something stupid like ttrs with only skyscrapers, all towns become big very fast
16:12:35  <Saraa> If i have a simple cross in rails what signals should i use ?
16:12:43  <V453000> idk I feel like all town sets give the same amount of population
16:12:55  <frosch123> Saraa: if you do not know, try them all :)
16:13:33  <andythenorth> Saraa: a bridge ;)
16:14:13  <FLHerne> Saraa: If you're not using double track already I suggest you do - it's far easier to signal :P
16:15:55  <FLHerne> If you know which way trains will be going on each piece of track, you can just use mnodirectional path signals for everything ;)
16:18:57  <welshdragon> I've found a bug...
16:19:04  *** TWerkhoven2[l] [] has joined #openttd
16:19:21  <welshdragon> Groups display the wrong number in the overview window
16:19:25  <Saraa>
16:19:28  <Saraa> its just this
16:20:51  *** pugi [] has joined #openttd
16:21:01  <NGC3982> wagon towarowy!
16:22:16  <Saraa> is there a simple signal which shows when its safe to cross
16:23:40  <FLHerne> Saraa: I think a bidirectional path signal on the red dot near the factory would work
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16:24:43  <FLHerne> Perhaps on both green dots too, although I don't think that's necessary
16:25:03  <FLHerne> Andythenorth was right though, a bridge would be easier :P
16:25:33  <Saraa> its says 'no signals'
16:26:05  <Saraa> ok, nvmd :P
16:26:11  <FLHerne> You have the 'convert' tool selescted. Unselect it :P
16:26:13  <frosch123> welshdragon: then figure out which action made it go wrong
16:26:52  <frosch123> a screenshot or savegame is useful for that kind of bug, as those values are not saved
16:28:10  <Saraa> it works :)
16:28:52  <FLHerne> Saraa: good :D
16:33:37  <Saraa> can i assign specific depos for a specific train ?
16:35:12  <FLHerne> If you give a train an order to goto or service at a depot, it won't go to others, if that's what you mean
16:36:37  <welshdragon>
16:36:43  <welshdragon> frosch123: ^
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16:37:08  <FLHerne> The difference being that 'service at' will only send the train to the depot when it thinks it needs servicing
16:38:18  <frosch123> welshdragon: so, what did you do?
16:38:31  *** fonsinchen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:38:43  <frosch123> if you cannot reproduce it with some clear actions, we have to close it as unreproducible
16:40:37  <welshdragon> frosch123: added reproduvtion steps
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16:41:58  <frosch123> oh, so it is broken recently
16:42:44  <welshdragon> i suspect so
16:42:53  <welshdragon> it woeks in earlier versions
16:42:56  <frosch123> it's the drag/drop thingie
16:43:07  <frosch123> and the command accepting moving vehicles from ALL_GROUP to some other group
16:45:15  <frosch123> welshdragon: so you are playing nightly, not trunk?
16:45:26  <frosch123> err, nightly, not 1.2
16:45:46  <welshdragon> 1.2
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16:48:22  <frosch123> hmm, no, i cannot reproduct it
16:52:51  <NGC3982> V453000: i kind of giggled when T1000 was introduced.
16:58:43  * andythenorth goes adventuring into production level, production rate, production multiplier etc
16:59:25  <andythenorth> frosch123: someone's going to have a valid case for adjusting production_rate[0] and production_rate[1] (from action 0 props) ?
17:00:36  <frosch123> that would be a lot of work for something which you can do with the production callback
17:01:05  <andythenorth> true
17:01:11  <andythenorth> let's ignore it then
17:01:59  <andythenorth> so I want to adjust i->prod_level, how do bytes 0-7 in this new cb adjust it?
17:06:29  <andythenorth> similar to existing production changes?
17:06:48  <frosch123> <- what was wrong with that one?
17:06:53  <frosch123> except the number of bits?
17:08:01  <andythenorth> nothing, I failed to understand it :P
17:08:11  <andythenorth> I've just read ChangeIndustryProduction again
17:08:14  <andythenorth> now I understand it
17:08:15  <andythenorth> :P
17:08:42  <andythenorth> so the desired level just gets stuffed in register 0x100 if I've understood correctly
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17:15:34  <andythenorth> hmm
17:15:40  <andythenorth> I have to patch nml to test this :P
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17:25:38  <andythenorth> in nml, is register 0x100 address 1
17:25:41  <andythenorth> ?
17:26:02  <andythenorth> i.e. to push 128 into 0x100 I use "STORE_TEMP(128, 1)"
17:26:02  <andythenorth> ?
17:28:47  <frosch123> unlikely
17:29:59  <frosch123> i would think STORE_TEMP(128, 0x100)
17:30:20  <andythenorth> let's try that
17:40:57  <andythenorth> interesting
17:41:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24157 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
17:41:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:41:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 45 changes by telanus
17:41:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 10 changes by Wowanxm
17:41:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 3 changes by chenwt0315
17:41:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 12 changes by VoyagerOne
17:41:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 12 changes by planetmaker
17:43:06  <andythenorth> frosch123: I wanted to be sure this approach was going to I brute force set prod_level to 128 on build
17:43:11  <andythenorth> it makes no difference to production
17:44:12  <andythenorth> I've checked it's not just a newgrf case - it's not being hidden by the production cb
17:48:18  <frosch123> did you call RecomputeProductionMultipliers() ?
17:48:33  <andythenorth> I tried, but it throws errors
17:49:30  <andythenorth> this suggests to me that "	i->prod_level = PRODLEVEL_DEFAULT;" on L1654 isn't doing anything useful :P
17:49:34  <frosch123> ah, right, you have to disable smooth economy if that cb is used
17:49:43  <frosch123> also change UsesSmoothEconomy
17:51:30  <andythenorth> L1612 looks interesting
17:52:12  <frosch123> don't look at it
17:52:18  <andythenorth> so that's how default industries are randomised?
17:52:21  <frosch123> smooth economy is not compatible with newgrfs
17:53:35  <andythenorth> it was more for reference ;)
17:54:12  <andythenorth> L1639-1640
17:54:16  * telanus hates translation errors, that one only see for a split second before it pops out of existance :(
17:54:23  <andythenorth> if I'm adjusting production rate on build, I need those to be updated
17:55:03  * andythenorth ponders moving the cb up
17:55:14  <andythenorth> and also having it recalculate production_rate directly :P
17:58:49  <andythenorth> ha
17:59:22  <andythenorth> frosch123: this is obviously stupid, but proves at least my nml patch works :P
17:59:23  <andythenorth>
18:05:08  <NGC3982> what happend to the trains in amsterdam?
18:05:17  <NGC3982> bad TCMS and a reversing engine?
18:05:32  <andythenorth> hmm
18:05:47  * andythenorth can't find where prod_level is actually used to produce output
18:09:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: afaict returning prod_level is pointless
18:09:55  <andythenorth> I can't see how it works even for the existing cbs...which it must, obviously ;P
18:11:29  <andythenorth> nvm
18:11:34  <andythenorth> I found the obvious
18:13:33  <andythenorth> hmm
18:13:39  <andythenorth> ottd compiles much faster than FIRS
18:15:27  <Eddi|zuHause> reimplement gcc in python :)
18:15:41  <Alberth> dependency checking and partial compiling works :)
18:15:55  <Eddi|zuHause> and multithreading
18:16:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and efficient expression evaluation
18:16:30  <Alberth> we need nml2 :p
18:17:57  * andythenorth needs to know how to stick something in register 0x100 with nml :P
18:18:12  <andythenorth> appears not to work:
18:27:05  <andythenorth> yay
18:27:20  <andythenorth> ok, so apart from handling edge cases / errors...this appears to work :o
18:27:25  <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ ;)
18:29:25  <andythenorth> tempting to allow each prod. rate to be set directly, so they can be varied more easily, e.g. for farms
18:29:38  <andythenorth> where there are 2 outputs
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18:33:18  <frosch123> they are strictly tied via prod_level
18:34:02  <andythenorth> if I reset them before calling RecomputeProductionMultipliers()...
18:34:16  <andythenorth> oh no
18:34:19  <andythenorth> they're indspec :P
18:34:20  <andythenorth> k
18:34:25  <andythenorth> nvm
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18:34:45  <andythenorth> so I have no idea what to do with ErrorUnknownCallbackResult()
18:34:52  <andythenorth> or what edge cases I should be handling
18:35:14  <frosch123> you should check the return value of the cb for validness
18:35:35  <frosch123> to prevent grfauthors from returning a mess, which then returns in broken grfs if we enhance ottd
18:36:29  <andythenorth> so currently there a no specific return values, and something valid has to be in register 0x100
18:36:39  <andythenorth> and other registers aren't checked
18:36:44  <andythenorth> so must return 0?
18:41:03  <frosch123> why do you use register 100 anyway?
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18:43:19  <andythenorth> hmm
18:43:38  <andythenorth> I thought that was your advice ;)
18:43:41  <andythenorth> maybe I misread earlier
18:43:44  <andythenorth> I got up at 5am ;)
18:44:07  <andythenorth> does pushing values onto registers make this more flexible in future?
18:45:16  <frosch123> registers usually only get optional results
18:45:34  <frosch123> like stuff for a news item :)
18:45:52  <michi_cc> No, his advice was to put the production into the result and an optional message string into the register.
18:46:36  <andythenorth> oops :)
18:47:22  <andythenorth> I just pasted this in ;) i->prod_level = Clamp(GB(GetRegister(0x100), 16, 8), PRODLEVEL_MINIMUM, PRODLEVEL_MAXIMUM);
18:48:44  <andythenorth> so I should change that to use result?
18:48:47  <frosch123> that line is from the prod change cb
18:49:10  <frosch123> i meant to copy the clamping of the result
18:49:20  <frosch123> but checking the range of the result for the Error thingie is even better
18:49:31  <andythenorth> ach, ok :)
18:49:43  * andythenorth thought he was done :P
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18:54:28  <ToxicFrog> So, someone linked me to Chill's patchpack earlier, which incorporates a huge list of patches ranging from the very simple (option to color-code town names based on how much they like you) to the very complex (cargodist).
18:55:13  <ToxicFrog> I was looking through the incoporated patches a while ago and most of them date from 2008-2009, with comments like "this is probably too late for 0.7, but hopefully it can be tested and merged in time for 0.8"
18:55:29  <ToxicFrog> Is it seriously the case that none of these have been merged into openttd?
18:55:55  <andythenorth> hmm
18:55:57  <andythenorth> so this works
18:55:58  <andythenorth> 			i->prod_level = Clamp(res, PRODLEVEL_MINIMUM, PRODLEVEL_MAXIMUM);
18:56:19  <andythenorth> so I should try and handle that with the Error thingie?
18:56:28  <andythenorth> does anyone know how the Error thingie works? :P
18:57:46  <Alberth> ToxicFrog: yes, that's why they are in the patchpack
18:58:03  <andythenorth> this might work
18:58:03  <andythenorth> 			if (res < PRODLEVEL_MINIMUM || res > PRODLEVEL_MAXIMUM) ErrorUnknownCallbackResult(indspec->grf_prop.grffile->grfid, CBID_INDUSTRY_PROD_CHANGE_BUILD, res);
18:58:28  <frosch123> andythenorth: you likely need both lines
18:58:38  <frosch123> the error and the clamping to somehow continue anyways
18:58:40  <Alberth> ToxicFrog: oh, we had a lot of simple patches added very recently in trunk, so maybe my claim is not entirely true
18:58:49  <andythenorth> frosch123: I concluded the same :)
18:58:59  <ToxicFrog> Alberth: is there any particular reason why? Some of these patches are really simple, and some of the complicated ones have been around for a while and tested very extensively
18:59:00  <andythenorth> C++ is easy when you have 3-5 people to help you ;P
18:59:51  <frosch123> ToxicFrog: maybe the extensive testing resulted in a decision to not include them
19:00:08  <Alberth> ToxicFrog: for the simple ones, I am not sure; for the complicated ones, yes, but each patch has its own reason why
19:00:18  <andythenorth> yay
19:00:29  <frosch123> the interesting part of testing is the result of it :p
19:00:37  <Alberth> :)
19:01:12  <ToxicFrog> Is there a "patch inclusion status" thing somewhere? It would be nice if I could distinguish between "patches I need to merge in myself" and "patches that will probably show up in trunk if I'm patient".
19:01:45  <Alberth> other than the distinction between "is in trunk" and "is not in trunk", no
19:01:53  <frosch123> waiting on others is never a good strategy
19:03:03  <ToxicFrog> frosch123: on the other hand, managing my own private branch is a pain in the ass
19:03:31  <frosch123> then decide for the patches which are important for yourself
19:03:33  * andythenorth is about to test the viability of getting a patch into trunk :P
19:03:41  <frosch123> don't try to include every single marginal feature
19:03:58  <frosch123> which might only be handy every 20th game
19:04:16  <NGC3982>
19:06:09  <ToxicFrog> frosch123: the thing is, AFAICT, my choices are basically "maintain my own patchset" (which is annoying even with a small number of patches), "play vanilla, waiting for features that I have no idea if they're even being considered because there's apparently no feedback on any of this", or "use someone else's build, which is probably very out of date"
19:06:19  <ToxicFrog> And I don't like any of those options, so I was wondering if there was a better one.
19:07:18  <Alberth> work on putting them in trunk?
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19:08:29  <frosch123> Alberth: that does not help for features which are considered more bloat than useful
19:08:39  <frosch123> e.g. the town rating display in the town name
19:09:19  <frosch123> (because there were like 3 patches which wanted to display something in the label, turning the map into a spreadsheet)
19:09:38  <andythenorth> frosch123 / whoever might be interested :) :P
19:09:43  <Alberth> good point
19:09:44  <frosch123> also i doubt any amount of work on a patch would succeed in getting any copy&paste or statistics patch into trunk :)
19:10:20  <frosch123> there are just numerous patches which have no chance because none of the devs like the feature, resp. are even strongly opposed to it
19:10:26  <Alberth> and cargod*st is terribly complicated to get right
19:10:42  * andythenorth waves a patch.  Maybe devs will like it? :D
19:10:48  * andythenorth tests a few more cases on it ;P
19:11:03  *** drac_boy [] has joined #openttd
19:11:05  <drac_boy> hi
19:11:08  <Alberth> ih
19:11:13  <frosch123> well, the patches where the authors themself do not consider them ready for trunk are even another case :)
19:11:46  <frosch123> andythenorth: doesn't that still assert with smooth economy?
19:11:47  <ToxicFrog> Alberth: the thing is, presumably the patch developers have already worked on putting them in trunk. Were they rejected? Rejected pending modifications? Still undergoing testing? Planned for inclusion in 1.3? There's no way to tell!
19:11:55  <andythenorth> frosch123: not sure
19:11:57  <andythenorth> I'll test
19:12:03  <andythenorth> I'm testing min values right now
19:12:06  <frosch123> also fix your whitespace :)
19:12:09  <andythenorth> I've tested max values
19:12:16  <andythenorth> stupid XCode :P
19:12:45  <ToxicFrog> I would rather not spend a weekend working on merging something into trunk only to get back "you're the sixth person to submit this this month, it's not being included because it conflicts with <planned feature X>" or something.
19:13:03  <andythenorth> 'planned feature' :o
19:13:11  <andythenorth> that's one of the less likely objections :P
19:13:15  <Alberth> ToxicFrog: so ask first
19:13:35  <Alberth> didn't know we even had planned features :p
19:13:42  <andythenorth> frosch123: I have smooth economy enabled
19:13:43  <andythenorth> seems to work
19:14:49  <frosch123> well, maybe because you patched a industry which uses the other prodchange cbs already, and thus already disables smooth economy
19:15:02  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: my 2¢: the bit in industry_cmd.cpp should have a comment explaining that it's calling the CB on creation to set initial production
19:15:14  <frosch123> check IndSpec::UsesSmoothEconomy
19:15:35  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: you mean 'documentation' :P
19:15:45  <frosch123> andythenorth: you also call the cb too early
19:15:47  <Rhamphoryncus> eh?
19:15:50  <frosch123> most of the variables are not set up yet
19:16:06  <frosch123>  /* Call callbacks after the regular fields got initialised. */ <- put it at least after that line
19:17:31  <andythenorth> if I don't call it early, the industry window reports incorrectly
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19:17:40  <andythenorth> and the industry list wrt production amounts
19:17:59  <frosch123> well, check the depenencies of the variables
19:18:03  <andythenorth> I need to set last_month_production
19:18:09  <andythenorth> maybe I could recompute last_month_production?
19:18:15  <frosch123> you will likely have to put the last_month thingie after it
19:18:15  <andythenorth> sound sane?
19:22:53  <ToxicFrog> Alberth: ask where, in here?
19:23:04  * Alberth nods
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19:25:10  <andythenorth> meh
19:25:15  * andythenorth looks for whitespace issues
19:25:21  <andythenorth> my editor doesn't reveal them
19:26:06  <Rhamphoryncus> The two blank lines in industry_cmd.cpp have trailing whitespace
19:26:14  <andythenorth> meanwhile
19:26:15  <andythenorth> yay
19:26:17  <andythenorth> assert :P
19:26:46  <Rhamphoryncus> the other blank in newgrf_callbacks.h does too
19:26:53  <Rhamphoryncus> My editor will do the same thing.  Drives me nuts.
19:27:48  <andythenorth> ok
19:27:51  <andythenorth> seen them now thanks
19:29:11  <Rhamphoryncus> The trick to finding them is to play with drag-select.  Indentation will go 4 at a time if tabbed, 1 if spaced.  Trailing will only highlight the last line without wrapping to the next
19:29:41  <andythenorth> hmm
19:29:50  <andythenorth> "* This function is only valid when not using smooth economy."
19:29:55  <andythenorth> for RecomputeProductionMultipliers()
19:30:09  <andythenorth> which means I can't use that function?
19:30:13  <andythenorth> I have to write my own?
19:30:50  <ToxicFrog> Hmm. Well, the patches I'm most interested in are more height levels; cargodist; buy land; select trains in tunnels; and automatic timetable tuning.
19:31:46  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: doesn't sound right to me..
19:32:25  <ToxicFrog> Although buy land looks like it was broken by a change in 1.0 and then never updated by the author, so no mystery there.
19:32:54  <frosch123> i doubt more-height-levels or cargodist will make it in any near future
19:33:33  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: 	assert(!indspec->UsesSmoothEconomy());
19:33:40  <andythenorth> seems to rule out relying on that function :P
19:34:29  <frosch123> drag&drop buy-land might have a chance if it is done like the clear-land/terraform limit (see fs#5156)
19:34:37  <Rhamphoryncus> frosch123: more height levels might, if the only issue is code quality
19:34:40  <ToxicFrog> frosch123: given that both have already been around for three years I'm going read that as "ever"; what's the reason?
19:35:10  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: yeah, but I think that's an invariant of using a production callback
19:35:27  <Rhamphoryncus> Trying to find the specific code now
19:35:48  <andythenorth> this existing comment makes no sense to me - wrt the actual code:
19:36:01  <andythenorth> the code is nothing to do with cbs in use
19:36:21  <frosch123> ToxicFrog: more-heightlevels is more complicated than the patchers up to now were able to handle. various preparations went into 1.2 with newgrf v8
19:36:26  <frosch123> but since then noone worked on that patch
19:36:52  <andythenorth> k, so I need to add to UsesSmoothEconomy
19:36:59  <andythenorth> as frosch123 said about 7 hours ago :P
19:37:10  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: IndustrySpec::UsesSmoothEconomy() returns false is you have a production callback set
19:37:17  <frosch123> i am not much involved with cargod*st. but afiak performance was a major issue
19:37:26  <Rhamphoryncus> So that particular industry always uses non-smooth economy
19:38:37  <Rhamphoryncus> Since you're adding a new flag it should either only activate if one of the existing ones does or should itself make it non-smooth
19:39:06  <andythenorth> fixing
19:39:25  <andythenorth> assert gone
19:39:54  <Rhamphoryncus> :)
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19:43:33  <andythenorth> fortunately TextWrangler is smarter than XCode :P
19:43:37  <andythenorth> and strips whitespace
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19:44:13  <Rhamphoryncus> s/\s+//g
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19:46:03  <andythenorth> patch updated
19:46:09  <frosch123> Rhamphoryncus: i don't think andy wants to remove so much spaces :)
19:46:38  <Rhamphoryncus> You're right.  This is C.  s/\s+/ /g
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19:47:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: i think you also need to add it to the debug gui
19:47:37  <andythenorth> andythenorth wants to immediately make the next FIRS release incompatible with the most recent ottd stable :P
19:47:37  <frosch123> it = the new callback and mask bit
19:47:40  <andythenorth> k
19:47:44  <drac_boy> heh
19:47:48  <andythenorth> I'll have to find the debug GUI :P
19:48:05  <andythenorth> sensibly named it seems
19:48:31  <frosch123> maybe it's a trap
19:48:44  <frosch123> and we named something entirely different that way
19:48:53  <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: your next trick can be boosting the 3/2 limit to 8/8 or 16/16 }:>
19:49:09  <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: nah, it would break the design of the game
19:49:14  <andythenorth> limitations are useful
19:49:15  <Rhamphoryncus> wha?
19:49:26  <andythenorth> we should re-insert some limitations :P
19:49:35  <Rhamphoryncus> Having had a cluster of 14 farms.. wha?!
19:49:51  <andythenorth> ?
19:49:55  <Rhamphoryncus> in FIRS
19:50:06  <Rhamphoryncus> 14 farms all near each other
19:50:07  <andythenorth> sometimes you get epic clusters
19:50:23  <andythenorth> if 2 or 3 types each locate a cluster near the same spot...
19:50:28  <Rhamphoryncus> They're amusing for pickup.  For farmsup they *SUCK*
19:50:34  <andythenorth> well yes
19:50:55  <andythenorth> especially because of shenanigans with having to build 3 separate roadstations at each farm
19:51:02  <Rhamphoryncus> They're part of why I've the lame farmsup feeders before
19:51:05  <andythenorth> due to queuing problems :P
19:51:09  <Rhamphoryncus> 3?
19:51:42  <andythenorth> one pickup for each cargo is required
19:51:52  <andythenorth> and one for drop off, as the others will be usually contended
19:52:15  <andythenorth> and with trams, drive-through stops are required.  inefficient on space :P
19:52:29  <Rhamphoryncus> Ahh, I did trains
19:52:35  <andythenorth> and enough room for significant queuing is also required, so in a dense cluster, it's hard :P
19:52:45  <andythenorth> at least pickup can overlap farms :P
19:53:01  <andythenorth> it's a bit better with YACD, the overlap is handled for dropoff as well
19:53:12  <frosch123> andythenorth: you can queue a lot of vehicles in a depot :p
19:53:24  <andythenorth> only if they know to go there, RVs don't afaict
19:53:34  <andythenorth> they'll come out and gridlock
19:53:40  <andythenorth> RV gridlock is easily achieved :)
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19:53:59  <andythenorth> hmm
19:54:05  <andythenorth> how does this debug gui work?
19:54:16  <andythenorth> I thought cbs would be in newgrf_debug.h
19:54:22  <Rhamphoryncus> My trick was to have a single tile of the train station at each farm (the center of the station), then have a single platform tile interleaved with a common transfer station platform
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19:54:36  <Rhamphoryncus> So one train would go in a tight loop alternating pickup farmsup/dropoff farmsup
19:54:51  <Rhamphoryncus> Also, you can give an RV an order for a specific depot
19:55:13  <andythenorth> might be I only need to provide a string for cb 15F, then maybe it works? :o
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19:59:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24158 /trunk/src/subsidy.cpp: -Fix (r23408): Town producing no cargo at all could spawn passenger subsidies.
19:59:32  <andythenorth> hmm
19:59:36  * andythenorth is puzzled by debug gui
19:59:54  <frosch123> take a look at the other industry cbs
20:00:03  <frosch123> i would expect you only have to add one line into some table
20:00:23  <frosch123> in table/debug_data_something_something.h
20:00:48  <andythenorth> ho
20:00:52  <andythenorth> yes
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20:02:21  <andythenorth> done
20:03:22  <andythenorth> updated
20:04:55  <Rhamphoryncus> mode=edit?
20:05:03  <Rhamphoryncus> It wants a password from me :)
20:05:35  <andythenorth> ?
20:05:37  <andythenorth> :o
20:05:45  <andythenorth>
20:08:47  <Alberth> andythenorth:  some quick comments
20:09:58  <frosch123> he, albert seems to be the only one checking comments :)
20:10:27  <Alberth> I first read comments, then read the code to confirm :)
20:11:09  <Alberth> a few lines comments is faster to read then all code of a function ;)
20:11:39  <Eddi|zuHause> he's the master of comments :)
20:11:50  <frosch123> i think i am not used to commented code :)
20:12:39  <frosch123> i am rather used to reading code, since comments are either wrong or do not state the important things
20:13:13  <frosch123> (of course not in ottd :) )
20:14:41  * andythenorth always assumes comments are approximate :P
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20:25:32  <andythenorth> Alberth: one of the comments on comments conflicts with neighbouring comments :P
20:25:43  <andythenorth> they are not capitalised nor have full stops
20:25:56  <andythenorth> sure that one isn't a foolish consistency?
20:27:10  <andythenorth> newgrf_callbacks.h has a variety of comment styles ;)
20:27:23  <frosch123> yeah, coding is art :p
20:27:28  <Alberth> I change the comments when I change the line for some reason, but ymmv.
20:27:48  <Alberth> not changing it is also fine if you feel it is better
20:28:14  <Alberth> then one day, they may all get aligned :p
20:28:27  <andythenorth> foolish consistency ;)
20:28:29  <andythenorth> but I changed it
20:29:58  <andythenorth> comments fixed
20:30:09  <andythenorth>
20:30:29  <andythenorth> ship it? :)
20:31:53  <Alberth> newgrf_callbacks.h has surprisingly few spelling errors :p
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20:36:05  <Alberth> good night all
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20:49:09  <Terkhen> good night
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21:03:56  <andythenorth> bye
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21:21:24  <NGC3982> hm
21:22:30  <NGC3982> im still trying to find an industry grf that allows me to stimulate growth a bit further
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21:56:58  <krinn> hi all
21:57:18  <krinn> Zuu answer sent
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23:05:23  <krinn> night all
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23:54:01  <Nat_aS> why is there no open source sim-city clone?
23:54:17  <Nat_aS> (before somebody sugests lin city, that game has almost nothing to do with sim city)
23:54:22  <Nat_aS> i mean sim city 2000 clone
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