Log for #openttd on 22nd April 2012:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:02:02  <Eddi|zuHause> because you did not make one...
00:02:36  <FLHerne> I want one too!
00:02:45  <FLHerne> Waaah! :P
00:03:19  <FLHerne> But seriously, that would be cool, I used to play SC2K on my old PowerBook :D
00:05:10  <Eddi|zuHause> the difference between SC2K and TTD is that SC2K has a worthy 21st century successor with SC4. while TTD has not
00:05:27  <FLHerne> SC4 is not a worthy successor, though :P
00:05:45  <Eddi|zuHause> all the people making mods for SC4 are not available for making an SC2K clone
00:05:56  <FLHerne> It changed the idea so much that it's not really the same game :-(
00:09:06  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever. i did enjoy SC4 very much
00:09:16  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea how SC5 will be, though
00:09:35  <FLHerne> SC4 v SC2k is much like Lomo v TTD, actually - that we have OTTD [i]and[/i] a Lomo modding community proves it's possible :D
00:10:27  <FLHerne> Locomotion is at least as much a TTD successor as SC4 is an SC2k one...
00:11:28  <Eddi|zuHause> successor? sure. worthy? maybe, maybe not. 21st century? certainly not...
00:12:15  <FLHerne> Released 2004?
00:12:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but with totally outdated technology
00:12:42  <Eddi|zuHause> 8bpp? sprite-based?
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00:12:53  <Eddi|zuHause> that has absolutely nothing to do with 21st century
00:13:37  <Eddi|zuHause> OpenTTD practically only exist, because Lomo is no significant improvement over TTD
00:14:04  <FLHerne> Are you sure LoMo is both sprite-based and 8bpp?
00:14:09  * FLHerne goes to check
00:14:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
00:14:42  <Mazur> I am sprite-based and 8 bpp.
00:15:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i prefer fanta.
00:16:53  <FLHerne> It certainly manages not to look it then; better than OTTD 32bpp EZ in some ways...
00:17:57  <FLHerne> I just assumed it wasn't sprite-based because of the sheer number of angles  '<
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01:30:54  <Nat_aS> oh man I missed the discussion I started :c
01:31:04  * Nat_aS hopes some of the people there are still awake
01:31:30  <Nat_aS> I think SC3000 was a good sequel, and added some nice things, but it also got rid of a lot of cool features
01:31:37  <Nat_aS> and SC4 went in a bad direction
01:31:40  <Nat_aS> way too fiddly.
01:31:47  <Nat_aS> too hard to earn money
01:32:04  <Nat_aS> terrain became too complex while the basic building mechanic remained simple.
01:32:24  <Nat_aS> Cities XL half fixes a bunch of problems SC4 had, but it'
01:32:30  <Nat_aS> it's not perfect either
01:32:43  <Nat_aS> road layouts in that game can become a mess quickly.
01:33:15  <Nat_aS> you can build roads in any direction, even curves, but buildings are always perfect squares.
01:34:22  <Nat_aS> perfect squares, but not bound by any sort of grid, so good luck building something efficient.
01:36:16  <Rhamphoryncus> shhh,  you're making me want to build my own engine from scratch
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01:38:52  <Nat_aS> honestly, an engine that looks and works like sim city 2000 would be perfect
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01:39:23  <Nat_aS> just taking advantage of modern computing power for more detailed simulations, but keeping hand sprited isometric graphics.
01:40:05  <Nat_aS> I'd add garbage and agricultural zones from Sim City 3000, and take advantage of modern computing power to have an overcomplex traffic simulation.
01:40:37  <Nat_aS> IE, each sim has a house and work, and travels between them using a pathfinding algorithm.
01:40:51  <Nat_aS> which is much less ludicrous these days than it was in the 90s.
01:43:55  <Nat_aS> it's a damn shame that Sim city classic is open source, but SC2k is not
01:44:03  <Nat_aS> and EA probably wont let go of it
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06:17:10  <andythenorth> bongiorno
06:17:22  <Nat_aS> hi
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06:37:49  <andythenorth> industry tile 'animation_info' - the frame_count parameter is exact?
06:38:46  <andythenorth> it's not a frame number, zero-indexed or other things that would cause unexpected results?
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07:45:19  <Alberth> moin
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07:57:35  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:13:06  <NGC3982> top o' the mornin lads
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08:33:21  <Wolf01> hello
08:36:56  <Alberth> hello
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10:10:19  <drac_boy> hi
10:10:48  <Alberth> hi
10:11:09  <drac_boy> how're you?
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10:20:16  <Alberth> pretty good, and you?
10:20:54  <drac_boy> doing ok, just trying to look a bit into laptops again. hopefully finding something this time -_-
10:21:05  <drac_boy> not much progress to say on my grf project atm tho :p
10:23:03  * drac_boy just wanted a simple laptop for daily work on the go
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10:31:18  <Alberth> don't set requirements, and you're done in about 10 minutes ;)
10:32:24  <drac_boy> Alberth problem is...if you do that you're going to end up with something that can't do more than notes taking which isn't even a laptop at all
10:32:39  <drac_boy> :)
10:33:14  <Alberth> hmm, not good :(
10:36:31  <drac_boy> need to pick something :)
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10:42:19  <drac_boy> what you doing now Alberth?
10:42:44  <Alberth> answering your highlight :p
10:43:50  <drac_boy> heh so being lazy? :P
10:43:51  <Alberth> I am deciding how to break up a patch into a patch-sequence
10:45:18  <Alberth> trouble is I wrote that patch a month ago, so trying to remember its structure at the same time :)
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10:48:13  <drac_boy> have fun :p
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11:29:21  <Alberth> o/ andy
11:30:53  <andythenorth> hi hi
11:33:24  <andythenorth> so....drawing railtypes *over* a station tile
11:33:28  <andythenorth> what stops it?
11:33:50  <andythenorth> because the method of drawing the station as overlays on the track is bonkers and provably broken
11:34:29  <drac_boy> heh
11:34:31  <planetmaker> andythenorth: railtypes *are* drawn on top...
11:34:38  <drac_boy> always finding something to break every single hour are you? :P
11:35:00  <andythenorth> hmm
11:35:02  <planetmaker> or what in particular do you mean?
11:35:04  <andythenorth> that means CHIPS is doing it wrong
11:35:39  <andythenorth> I found this issue recently...others are reporting it too
11:35:39  <andythenorth>
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11:35:43  <planetmaker> yexo surely knows it better than me. But iirc it's like "ground tile, station background, rail track, station foreground"
11:36:01  <andythenorth> iirc 'ground tile' has to be the magic 'track' tile
11:36:12  <planetmaker> no
11:36:29  <planetmaker> but you might want to define a building part (which is also ground)
11:36:33  <planetmaker> maybe
11:36:37  <andythenorth> I can fix the issue by making the overlays bigger - like so (mud):
11:36:46  <planetmaker> but I should shut up before I talk bullshit
11:36:48  <andythenorth> but then they start to overlap default tracks
11:37:00  <andythenorth> if anyone wants to do broad gauge, this is all going to fail horribly
11:37:10  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I haven't read the spec either :P
11:37:17  <andythenorth> at least, not recently enough to remember it properly
11:37:20  * drac_boy is at least doing narrow rails thankfully
11:37:29  <drac_boy> tunnel portals is one small issue I need to check yet tho
11:38:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: code the gravel as ground tile, not as platform?
11:39:36  <andythenorth> lets see
11:39:52  <planetmaker> oh, I thought it was laready coded as ground
11:39:57  <planetmaker> of course you'll want that
11:40:15  <planetmaker> it *is* a ground tile after all :-)
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11:46:16  <andythenorth> hmm
11:46:21  <andythenorth> hacking at it did solve it :P
11:46:33  <andythenorth> didn't /s
11:58:45  <andythenorth> hmm
11:59:00  <andythenorth> so there must be a sprite number that returns 'current railtype sprite' for each angle
12:00:03  <andythenorth> the newgrf specs make absolutely no sense to me
12:00:11  <andythenorth> they may as well be written directly in nfo, undocumented
12:00:19  * andythenorth looks for railtype code :P
12:05:12  <Eddi|zuHause> station specs are always somewhat of a mystery
12:05:17  <frosch123> planetmaker: it's grass, rail overlay, station stuff
12:05:20  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why nml doesn't suppor them yet
12:05:46  <planetmaker> frosch123: but... the grass is a groud tile which can be defined by the layout?
12:06:06  <planetmaker> *ground
12:06:11  <frosch123> no, the layout must use the default rail sprite, which ottd then replaces by grass + overlay
12:06:12  <planetmaker> or is it really the grass?
12:06:18  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but is the rail overlay also drawn for the default rail type?
12:06:20  <planetmaker> oh, meh
12:06:34  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no, then it draws only the original rail sprite
12:07:12  <andythenorth> frosch123: so it is the magic sprite number?  (I forget the number :P )
12:07:34  * andythenorth was reading src/ to figure it out; src makes a lot more sense than newgrf wiki for stations :/
12:07:42  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i guess what andy needs is "draw grass" - "draw gravel" - "draw rail" - "draw platform stuff"
12:07:57  <Eddi|zuHause> for old and new railtypes alike
12:08:00  <andythenorth> [me and every other station set that needs to work with railtypes]
12:08:33  <andythenorth> it's similar issue to the tram-crossings issue too
12:08:34  <frosch123> well, not possible currently, and not easily done :)
12:09:07  <andythenorth> so the answer is "don't use pikka's tracks" :P
12:10:03  <V453000> thanks for the response Eddi :) already found that yesterday, I apparently need to read more than just NML documentation :)
12:10:29  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: what response?
12:10:31  <planetmaker> Sad but true: yes, that can help.
12:10:49  <V453000> the univ railtype in nuts thread
12:11:05  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, right
12:11:50  <Eddi|zuHause> question: is setting the compatible/powered rail type list "cumulative"?
12:12:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. if different grfs set it to different values, will one overwrite the other, or will both lists be combined?
12:12:35  <michi_cc> This is probably some kind of blasphemy, but IMNSHO the new finescale tracks look too fuzzy and bumpy.
12:12:58  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. if two track sets modify the "RAIL" railtype
12:13:03  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, they are all cumulative (which the specs state) :)
12:13:28  <Eddi|zuHause> fine. one less problem to worry about :)
12:14:27  <andythenorth> michi_cc: don't tell pikka, but I might agree :
12:14:29  <andythenorth> :o
12:15:05  <andythenorth> I thought of something else wrt industry prod change on build
12:15:06  <andythenorth>
12:15:07  <michi_cc> They would probably look quite good a 2x zoom if they had sprites forthat.
12:15:26  <andythenorth> ^^ possible extension to spec, dunno if it's needed.  Could be added later?
12:18:03  <andythenorth> basically allow cb 15F to also set 'last month production' when industry is built
12:18:43  <andythenorth> for sets using production cb for primary industry, the industry window / list might have very wrong production values during first month of play
12:21:59  <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't that value default to 0?
12:22:54  <frosch123> would be stupid on map generation
12:23:37  <andythenorth> currently defaults to 8 * prod_rate[n]
12:23:41  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: those values would be filled during the "run a few ticks" phase?
12:24:05  <frosch123> we likely fail for ecs :p
12:24:09  <frosch123> *would
12:24:29  <andythenorth> it's not been a massive source of problems so far :)
12:24:45  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: since that is purely aesthetic, it would be easy to change
12:24:49  * andythenorth assumes ECS uses production cb for primary production
12:25:05  <andythenorth> [FIRS doesn't]
12:25:33  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the question is whether the industry's state is messed up when the production is called, but the date does not advance
12:25:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but if prod_rate the return value of cb 15E, then where is the problem?
12:26:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: not sure I understand the question exactly? :)
12:26:50  <andythenorth> 15F would return prod_level
12:27:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that i meant
12:27:19  <andythenorth> prod_rate[n] for previous month is recalculated when cb 15F is called...
12:27:45  <andythenorth> but the recalculation assumes industry is not using production cb to produce cargo
12:27:58  <andythenorth> that's an unsafe assumption :P
12:28:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but the GRF author knows that, and take that into account?
12:28:21  <andythenorth> currently?
12:28:27  <andythenorth> grf author does nothing currently :P
12:28:28  <Eddi|zuHause> ideally :)
12:28:34  <andythenorth> nor has anyone moaned about it so far afaik
12:28:52  <andythenorth> simply running the production cb when cb15F is called is one option, but highly unsafe imho :
12:29:23  <andythenorth> production cb can do all kinds of things with storage that might not be valid during cb 15F
12:29:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't understand the problem. callback 15F is called exactly once for the industry. and the grf author knows whether production callback is used for his industry.
12:30:09  <andythenorth> hmm
12:30:12  <Eddi|zuHause> so he can simply return a "sane" value for 15F
12:30:15  <andythenorth> yes
12:30:32  <Eddi|zuHause> no need for production callback
12:30:35  <andythenorth> but isn't there a proposal somewhere above to also run the production cb at game start (or on cb 15F)?
12:31:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: we might be arguing same side of the case :P
12:31:30  <andythenorth> my proposal is: if author cares about last month production, allow them to return a value for that
12:31:45  <andythenorth> they have to calculate it themselves
12:31:56  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't understand what you want to _add_ as functionality, because all use cases i already see as possible with the current implementation
12:32:14  <andythenorth> you see the case for cb15F though?
12:32:21  <andythenorth> to set prod_level?
12:32:48  <Eddi|zuHause> set initial production, initialize storage, ...
12:32:50  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
12:33:12  <andythenorth> k
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12:33:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but returning previous production separately makes only sense if you have a case where it should differ from current production...
12:34:34  <andythenorth> yes
12:34:36  <andythenorth> that's the case
12:34:54  <Eddi|zuHause> then you have not explained it properly yet
12:34:55  <andythenorth> current production is determined as:
12:34:57  <andythenorth> 	this->production_rate[0] = min(CeilDiv(indspec->production_rate[0] * this->prod_level, PRODLEVEL_DEFAULT), 0xFF);
12:35:21  <andythenorth> hmm - ignore that one :P
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12:37:11  <andythenorth> k here we go.  I was searching src, for my new code, but I'd reverted it all :P
12:37:13  <andythenorth> 	i->last_month_production[0] = i->production_rate[0] * 8;
12:37:24  <andythenorth> ^ that simply doesn't hold for industries where author uses production cb
12:37:37  <andythenorth> it could be wildly wrong
12:37:50  <andythenorth> so the production in industry list would be misleading
12:38:10  <andythenorth> which will cause players to build the wrong routes
12:38:15  <andythenorth> which is annoying to them ;)
12:38:27  <andythenorth> [for the first month only]
12:38:53  <andythenorth> I don't have this case in FIRS, dunno about ECS, so might be a straw man case :P
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12:40:19  <andythenorth> can't find any FS about it
12:42:26  <andythenorth> strikes me it could be added to cb 15F later if someone *does* need it
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12:48:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but i still understand it. what use is prod_level if you use production callback? so what prevents you from returning a "fake" production level then?
12:48:28  <Eddi|zuHause> +don't
12:48:49  <andythenorth> k
12:49:12  <andythenorth> it doesn't meet the case where you vary cargo 0 and cargo 1 according to [some rules]
12:49:24  <andythenorth> but otherwise yes, I see your point and am +1
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12:51:08  <andythenorth> I'll add a comment on the thread about it
12:54:20  <andythenorth> so ignore that case.  Any other cases that should be met? :)
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13:48:11  <Skau1> hi, question about openTTD.. are there any way to store for example oil?
13:48:45  <Skau1> like if i have a ship traveling a far distance to get oil, can i store the oil so that trains can pick it up?
13:49:01  <Alberth> oh, yes, they are called transfer orders
13:49:11  <Skau1> yeah, ive been using them
13:49:15  <Alberth> read about feeder systems at the wiki
13:49:18  <Skau1> but if it unloads to a trainstation
13:49:30  <Skau1> it will just pick it back up if there are no trains waiting
13:49:35  * Alberth nods
13:49:41  <Alberth> do 'no loading' :)
13:50:05  <Skau1> and then the oil will just stay on the track waiting for the train?
13:50:17  <Alberth> ie unloading and loading are completely separated, so you need to specify both
13:50:28  <Alberth> at the station actually, but yes
13:50:44  <Alberth> except it decays if you don't provide good enough service
13:51:52  <frosch123> someone knows the dutch furniture set?
13:51:59  <frosch123> wth are "matrix activators"?
13:52:19  <Skau1> Alberth: how so?
13:52:47  <Alberth> to prevent you from storing oil forever at the station
13:52:58  <Skau1> ah
13:53:05  <Skau1> so it just dissapears after a while?
13:53:23  <Alberth> if you don't pick it up regularly, yes
13:53:45  <frosch123> it gets slowly stolen if the rating is below 25% or so
13:53:51  <frosch123> (not sure about the exact number)
13:54:04  <Skau1> ok sweet, thanks.. i should have know to use "no unloading" .. dunno why i didnt think of that :P
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13:54:49  <Alberth> frosch123: ?
13:54:55  <Skau1> tbh.. airtraffic is way too easy to earn money on imo
13:55:14  <Alberth> Skau1: the map you use is too large
13:55:21  <Skau1> i cant ever lose money after ive set up like 10 planes carrying 300 people
13:55:30  <Skau1> back and forth
13:55:31  <Skau1> or 400..
13:55:51  <Skau1> i just keep populating the two cities and keep adding more planes
13:56:11  <Alberth> original game was on 256x256, and perhaps the aircraft were smaller too
13:56:33  <Alberth> that's why the reduced speed was introduced
13:56:37  <Skau1> we're playing multiplayer on a 1024x1024 map i think
13:56:49  <Alberth> but many servers don't even enable aircraft
13:57:21  <Skau1> still, you can earn alot by just traveling from one side of the map to another
13:57:24  <Skau1> with trains
13:57:37  <Alberth> so you have 16 times as much map, so you also get 16 times as much money
13:57:59  <Alberth> (not entirely, but as an optimistic upperbound) :)
13:58:30  <Skau1> so bigger map should also use diffrent settings to balance stuff?
13:58:47  <drac_boy> Skau1 play with a relastic basecost parameters basically
13:59:09  <Skau1> we're thinking of restarting anyway because i just started playign yesterday.. so i wanted to learn stuff before we started something serious
13:59:14  <drac_boy> you'll never get away with lots of jetplanes on my games ever, unless you had more than 100 million DEM to go through first
13:59:24  <drac_boy> ;)
13:59:29  <Skau1> non of us know alot about this game
13:59:31  <Skau1> DEM?
13:59:51  <Alberth> Deutsch Mark :)
14:00:22  <planetmaker> I'd not recognize DEM as its abbreviation, tbh
14:00:27  <planetmaker> More common was "DM"
14:00:40  <planetmaker> A DEM is for me a digital elevation model :-P
14:00:46  <Alberth> :)
14:02:20  <Skau1> or.. really.. we dont have that much money
14:02:36  <Skau1> ive got 1,300,900,000 NOK now
14:02:57  <Skau1> 1GBP = 12 NOK ish
14:03:05  <Skau1> i think..
14:03:30  <Skau1> since when you have loan your company is worht 12NOK which i think means £1
14:06:30  <Alberth> @calc 1300900000 / 12
14:06:30  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 108408333.333
14:06:45  <Alberth> it's more :)
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14:07:40  <NGC3982> hm
14:07:51  <NGC3982> still no new news about how they manage to collide the trains in amsterdam?
14:08:03  <NGC3982> im qurious on how on earth it could happend in the first place.
14:10:09  <andythenorth> systems go wrong
14:10:13  <Alberth> two trains wanted to be at the same point at the world, at the same point in time
14:10:17  <NGC3982> tcms?
14:10:21  <andythenorth> not a great explanation, but a true one :P
14:10:24  <Skau1> if you have more than one depot
14:10:28  <NGC3982> looking at the pictures tells me someone tried to brake.
14:10:28  <Skau1> in your order list
14:10:36  <Skau1> will it choose the next one to maintance when needed?
14:10:42  <Skau1> if you set maintance on all
14:11:31  <NGC3982> if maintenance is due, it doesnt matter if a train depot is in the list or not
14:11:42  <NGC3982> as far as i know, the train should as usual choose the very next depot
14:11:51  <Skau1> whats the point of setting the depot in the orderlist then?
14:12:27  <NGC3982>  personally, i use it to make ways for other trains on single lines.
14:12:30  <Alberth> adding a depot in the orderlist disables the train looking for a depot for servicing when it wants it
14:12:37  <NGC3982> oh
14:12:44  <NGC3982> never mind what i said, then.
14:12:53  <Skau1> so.. its kinda dumb?
14:13:24  <Alberth> depends on your playing style
14:14:35  <Alberth> if you disable breakdowns and disable servicing, yeah, you don't need depots
14:15:07  <Alberth> but imho disabling breakdowns is making it too easy :p
14:16:02  <Skau1> so breakdowns wont make it go to maintance?
14:16:09  <Skau1> if yo udont have it in orderlist
14:16:12  <Skau1> only if maintance is due
14:17:20  <drac_boy> I usually treat depots as engine/freightyards on my individual lines heh :)
14:17:22  <Skau1> omfg.. something si not workign like i want it to here..
14:17:28  <drac_boy> might not need that so much anymore with the NewObject thing tho
14:17:57  <Alberth> Skau1:
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14:18:39  <Skau1> another question.. if you use the bomb in the water.. exampble by mistake
14:19:13  <Skau1> nothing happends.. except you have to pay like close to half 0k
14:19:27  <Alberth> false
14:19:38  <Alberth> you created a bit of land, and it got flooded again
14:19:44  <Skau1> lol
14:21:35  <Skau1> are there ever any kind of "disaster" in openttd?
14:21:54  <Skau1> i remember in sim city it could either be started a war, or there was a tornado or .. floods and shit
14:21:57  <Alberth> if you have disasters enabled, yes
14:22:17  <Skau1> hmm.. i gotta tell my friend to enable it
14:22:22  <Skau1> its no fun when you play with no risk
14:22:46  <Alberth> the server owner controls such settings
14:22:55  <Skau1> yeah i know
14:23:01  <Skau1> its our server
14:27:13  <Skau1> diffrent train lights and sings are logicals etc, right?
14:27:18  <Skau1> like IF OR AND etc
14:27:34  <Skau1> are there anywhere i can se a overview explaining simply what each light means?
14:27:55  <Skau1> i dont really understand all the descriptions of each
14:29:02  <Alberth> at the wiki, at the Signals page
14:30:28  <Alberth> although the set of logical operators is not complete, as some do not serve any purpose with signals
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14:35:12  <NGC3982>
14:35:14  <NGC3982> oops
15:01:18  <andythenorth> meh
15:01:25  * andythenorth is re-animating the FIRS cement kiln
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15:25:49  <NGC3982>
15:26:08  <NGC3982> any way i can make orders like that be set a bit easier?
15:27:15  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have to pass through the stations anyway, what sense does it make to skip the stations?
15:27:50  <NGC3982> doesnt take as much time if i skip them.
15:28:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i suggest a central feeder station
15:29:02  <NGC3982> four independent trains > feeder station > big ass train between the feeder and recieving industry?
15:29:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:29:15  <Eddi|zuHause> or road vehicles for the feeders
15:29:21  <NGC3982> i guess thats more profitable
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16:17:49  <Skau1> but i never got an answer on my question .. :P if i add 2 depots to orders, will it use the next one if it has broken down?
16:18:02  <Skau1> or will this be a bad idea?
16:18:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Breakdowns and servicing have no direct connection.
16:18:42  <Eddi|zuHause> only an indirect one
16:19:00  <Skau1> if you add maintance to orders, it will go to that depot when it has broken down, right?
16:21:28  <Eddi|zuHause> breakdowns repair themselves. you don't have to go to depot.
16:21:35  <Alberth> it will always visit the depot afaik
16:21:58  <Alberth> but tias
16:22:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24159 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Fix: If you spent hard work on finding an available object ID, you should probably also use it instead of always 0.
16:22:46  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24160 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_object.cpp newgrf_object.h): -Codechange: Split parts of ObjectSpec::IsAvailable() into ObjectSpec::IsEverAvailable().
16:22:50  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24161 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_class.h newgrf_class_func.h): -Add: Method to get a specific NewGRFClass.
16:22:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24162 /trunk/src/ (9 files): -Codechange: Remove NewGRFClass::GetName() and SetName() in favour of using Get() and direct member access (which is needed anyway for GRF string resolving).
16:23:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24163 /trunk/src/newgrf_class.h: -Codechange: Make various members of NewGRFClass private.
16:23:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24164 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_class.h newgrf_class_func.h): -Codechange: Split parts of static NewGRFClass::Reset() into non-static ResetClass().
16:23:10  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24165 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_class.h newgrf_class_func.h): -Codechange: Split parts of static NewGRFClass::Assign() into non-static Insert().
16:23:15  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24166 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Turn NewGRFClass::Get(Tid, uint) and GetCount(Tid) into non-static members GetSpec(uint) and GetSpecCount().
16:23:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24167 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: Rename NewGRFClass::GetCount() to NewGRFClass::GetClassCount()
16:23:24  <andythenorth> busy busy
16:23:24  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24168 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp: -Codechange: Simplify default station class instantiation.
16:23:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24169 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Add: Make NewGRFClass distinguish between defined specs and specs visible for the user.
16:23:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24170 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_class.h newgrf_class_func.h): -Add: Methods for translating between NewGRFClass spec indices and user interface indices.
16:23:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24171 /trunk/src/ (object_gui.cpp terraform_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#4967, FS#5120]: Hide object specs/classes from the GUI, if they will never be available to the user.
16:23:43  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24172 /trunk/src/newgrf_object.cpp: -Cleanup: Lighthouse and transmitter no longer need special treatment to not appear in the object GUI.
16:24:17  <frosch123> sorry for disturbing
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16:25:55  * andythenorth ponders next industry patch
16:26:20  <andythenorth> - set a bit on the industry window text cb to hide all default text
16:26:57  <Alberth> a bit on the cb? you want to switch it on and off?
16:27:09  <andythenorth> on the return value :P
16:28:01  <Alberth> I guessed as much :p    but you want to sometimes display default text and sometimes not?
16:28:14  <andythenorth> yes
16:28:43  <andythenorth> 'cargo waiting to be processed' is often meaningless
16:29:10  <Alberth> ok :)
16:29:15  <andythenorth> should just be a list of 'requires'
16:29:34  <andythenorth> but I guess newgrf should take care of that :P
16:30:06  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and why is a property not enough?
16:30:22  <andythenorth> could be
16:30:33  <Skau1> and is it possible to link a station to a refinery or something without placing the station close enough?
16:30:37  <andythenorth> but the cb will have to be used either wa
16:30:50  <andythenorth> ach typing whilst holding baby :P
16:31:07  <andythenorth> if the prop is set, but text cb not used: FAIL :P
16:31:14  <andythenorth> [was my thinking]
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16:32:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Skau1: use Ctrl+Build Station to only put a small part near the industry, the other part further away
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16:35:20  <hackalittlebit> Hello
16:35:51  <hackalittlebit> Is ingo online
16:36:02  <andythenorth> planetmaker ^
16:36:40  <andythenorth> testing animation with FIRS is like pulling teeth due to compile time :P
16:36:47  <andythenorth> maybe I should comment out most of the grf to do this :)
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16:40:45  <hackalittlebit> planetmaker what do you wan't me to do now? continue discussion in topic that michi_cc gave?(FS5147)
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16:50:44  <frosch123> hackalittlebit: i think the changes in the forum thread are too radical to get started
16:50:52  <frosch123> so, i guess the fs task is more sane for now
16:51:33  <frosch123> he, andythenorth advertises the todo list in his signature :p
16:51:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i feel like i missed half of the conversation
16:51:45  <andythenorth> I discussed it with pm ;)
16:52:01  <andythenorth> frosch123: I could have advertised my pony list instead :)
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16:52:17  <frosch123> yeah, wondered about that
16:52:20  <andythenorth> currently my biggest pony is "is my patch good enough" :)
16:52:38  <frosch123> maybe it is a sneaky try of yours to get your pony list linked from the todo list in return :p
16:53:19  <andythenorth> it's no problem if a grf handles a cb not in stable?  (the cb will never be called?)
16:53:34  <Eddi|zuHause> correct
16:53:36  <andythenorth> hmm
16:53:44  <andythenorth> I need something new in trunk that FIRS can use :P
16:53:53  <andythenorth> so that it breaks against stable :P
16:54:12  <Eddi|zuHause> you really don't
16:54:21  <andythenorth> no really I don't :P
16:54:35  <andythenorth> but it's more fun to have features that are 'wait until 1.3'
16:54:46  <andythenorth> or 'use a nightly'
16:55:10  <andythenorth> hmm
16:55:16  <andythenorth> this is better right?
16:55:28  * andythenorth predicts possible forthcoming sadness :|
16:57:12  <hackalittlebit> andythenorth I see two times same picture in your post, MMMmwwhhahahahaha, Just kidding ;)
16:59:25  * FLHerne pesters andythenorth about windmills :P
17:00:41  <hackalittlebit> frosch123 Ok got it will continue in FS, Radical changes is bad, should be gradual, I would like to see some agreement on color scemes.
17:00:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the animation :p
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17:02:32  <frosch123> hackalittlebit: Alberth once wrote some wiki page about colours
17:02:36  <oskari89> Do i understand right, that current trunk allows NewObjects to have categories in placement window?
17:03:19  <frosch123> oskari89: trunk does not differ from 1.2 if you mean that
17:03:25  <oskari89> On the object gui?
17:03:35  <oskari89> Ok, just thought :P
17:04:32  <Alberth> hackalittlebit: oh, yeah I did, I never finished it properly though, so you should consider it a starting point rather than as a definitive guide
17:04:54  <oskari89> If there could be drop-down menu for subcategories, that would be nice.
17:05:04  <oskari89> For NewObjects.
17:06:12  <Alberth> there exists a list of such subcategories?
17:06:44  <andythenorth> FLHerne: what's the windmill case?
17:06:47  <oskari89> No, but i think it would be nice..
17:07:01  <oskari89> Or is there?
17:07:24  <frosch123> as long as newgrfs categorise objects by newgrfs, there is apparently no need for categories
17:07:33  <frosch123> else they would already create more useful categories
17:09:13  <Alberth> and getting agreement on categories is quite difficult
17:09:30  <andythenorth> FLHerne: is there actually a reproducible bug with the windmill?  You do keep mentioning it :/
17:09:58  <Mazur> Yes, some birds keep fluing into it.
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17:10:03  <Mazur> flying, too.
17:10:09  <FLHerne> Yes :P
17:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it may be a chicken-egg-problem
17:10:26  <andythenorth> FLHerne: have you made a bug report to forums or FIRS issue tracker?
17:10:35  <andythenorth> what's the bug?
17:11:01  <FLHerne> I almost did, but you said you'd just close it :D
17:11:17  <FLHerne> I'll post it on the forum :P
17:11:37  <andythenorth> is it the flapping when zoomed out?
17:11:56  <andythenorth> if so, it's an openttd bug and you should post it to flyspray
17:12:40  <andythenorth> you can mention that the oil well also does it
17:13:02  <hackalittlebit> alberth I need to study it. I have to admit that subcategories also crossed my mind. But as frosch said we have to start at the beginning
17:13:32  <andythenorth> hmm
17:13:40  <andythenorth> so why do sprites bounce in the zoomed out view?
17:13:49  <andythenorth> they have the same size bounding box in newgrf
17:14:31  <FLHerne> andythenorth: If it's the pixel halving, you could do separate sprites for each zoomlevel now :P
17:14:34  <andythenorth> but the cases are animated tiles, where sprites for some frames will have different heights to others (once masked)
17:14:52  <andythenorth> FLHerne: yeah, that's *definitely* going to happen :P
17:15:23  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: <- i doubt there is actually the interest in categorising them useful
17:15:43  <frosch123> that image shows all objects of which i know, half of the categories include the grf name
17:16:49  <frosch123> andythenorth: disable cropping by grfcodec/nml
17:16:58  <frosch123> so that all sprites have the same size
17:17:01  <frosch123> and offsets
17:17:26  <FLHerne> Forum bug report for you anythenorth :P :
17:18:28  <andythenorth> frosch123: presumably that increases filesize?  But not much, as it's mostly blue?
17:18:46  <frosch123> andythenorth: only disable cropping for the animated sprites :)
17:18:53  <andythenorth> hmm
17:19:02  * andythenorth to nml specs
17:19:10  <andythenorth> unless anyone can tell me now how to do it? :)
17:19:28  <frosch123> in nfo32 you need to add "nocrop" or so :p
17:20:00  <frosch123> it's "NOCROP" in nml as well :)
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17:22:29  <andythenorth> my nml doesn't like  NOCROP
17:22:30  <andythenorth> :P
17:22:35  <andythenorth> ach I'll figure it out
17:22:49  <frosch123> the docu says you have to put it in front of the filename
17:23:02  <andythenorth> 	tmpl_building_sprite_filename( 10, 200, 82, -52, NOCROP, "sprites/graphics/industries/grainmill.png")
17:23:36  <andythenorth> I guess I have to do it in the template
17:23:43  <andythenorth> biab
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17:27:25  <andythenorth> ach
17:27:27  <andythenorth> screw that :P
17:27:33  <andythenorth> I'd have to change every industry in FIRS
17:28:13  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Do, then :P
17:28:50  * FLHerne supports disproportionate complication :D
17:30:12  <andythenorth> hmm
17:30:17  <andythenorth> makes no difference to filesize
17:30:27  <andythenorth> frosch123 / Rubidium does using NOCROP on sprites do any harm?
17:30:49  <frosch123> why should it?
17:30:53  <andythenorth> I've just applied it to every building sprite in FIRS
17:31:01  <andythenorth> I assumed it was an optimisation of some sort
17:31:08  <andythenorth> (to use CROP)
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17:31:25  <frosch123> if it makes no different on filesize at all, then it either does not work, or all sprites were already cropped :p
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17:33:05  <andythenorth> 34050 bytes difference
17:33:08  <andythenorth> so some
17:33:15  <andythenorth> on a ~1MB grf
17:33:27  <andythenorth> @calc 34 / 1024
17:33:27  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.033203125
17:33:38  <andythenorth> still 3%
17:33:51  <andythenorth> it does fix the windmill, but not the oil well
17:33:58  <frosch123> well, most bytes in a grf are the pseudo sprites, which are uncompressed
17:34:12  <frosch123> usually the images themself are the minority :p
17:34:13  <andythenorth> I'm committing it
17:34:34  <frosch123> does it actually fix your issue with zooming?
17:34:44  <andythenorth> for the windmill yes
17:34:53  <andythenorth> for oil wells (uses base set sprites), no
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17:36:51  <andythenorth> FLHerne: it's done
17:37:12  <andythenorth> object lesson in 'squeaky wheel gets the oil' :/
17:37:31  <frosch123> hmm, maybe we can change the zooming to be relative to the offset point, instead of top-left corner
17:37:51  <frosch123> michi_cc: ^^ what do you think?
17:38:01  <andythenorth> wouldn't always solve the case I bet
17:38:16  <andythenorth> odd / even values for height width would still jitter
17:38:16  <frosch123> it would make it independent from croppping
17:38:34  <andythenorth> really?
17:38:44  <andythenorth> frame 1 height = 10
17:38:48  <andythenorth> frame 2 height = 11
17:38:59  <andythenorth> won't that cause jitter?
17:39:01  <andythenorth> nvm if not
17:40:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24173 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt latvian.txt):
17:40:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:40:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 39 changes by telanus
17:40:20  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 16 changes by Parastais
17:41:08  * FLHerne looks for other things to nag andythenorth about :P
17:41:51  <andythenorth> nag andythenorth that industries don't randomise production amount when built
17:42:14  <andythenorth>
17:48:28  <michi_cc> frosch123: No problem if you implement it :p
17:50:36  * andythenorth wonders why production cb is used for black hole industries
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18:03:12  <NGC3982> wat
18:03:15  <andythenorth> Pony request
18:03:16  <NGC3982> black hole industries?
18:03:41  <andythenorth> Pony: allow industry to overbuild houses *without* using one of the (unpopular) special flags
18:04:48  <andythenorth> serious request for town-based industry :)
18:05:26  <NGC3982> i have a suggestion on a grf.
18:05:38  <NGC3982> that i just started thinking about
18:05:42  <andythenorth> the two special flags for 'can overbuild houses' are considered limiting as they attach other conditions
18:05:52  <NGC3982> a full chemical grf, with rare earth elements and nuclear/chemical industries
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18:06:13  <NGC3982> and you need special trains and special carts for radioactive elements and such.
18:06:17  <NGC3982> \o/
18:06:20  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if I propose extending a cb, will you point out that it should be a prop? :)
18:06:34  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly :p
18:07:52  * andythenorth proposes adding a bit to result of cb28 or cb2f that allows overbuilding of houses (off by default)
18:08:23  <andythenorth> I think I know where in industry_cmd.cpp it could be used, will have a look once the toddler is asleep :)
18:08:25  <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean with "allow"?
18:08:39  <Eddi|zuHause> there are already industries which overbuild houses
18:08:39  <andythenorth> I mean 'permits overbuilding of houses'
18:08:40  <Alberth> NGC3982: great, one cargo of nuclear material every decade, driving at walking speed to the power plant
18:09:00  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: see lines further up ;)
18:09:28  <Eddi|zuHause> they don't explain anything
18:09:53  <andythenorth> I can't remember the objections, they weren't mine
18:10:10  <andythenorth> but the distance / population limits on the existing flags are considered harmful
18:10:27  <andythenorth> and also they're considered cheating, real men write callback handlers
18:10:33  <andythenorth> :P
18:10:57  <andythenorth> I could be persuaded they're fine, but I wasn't allowed to close FIRS tickets referencing this issue
18:11:05  <andythenorth> and I'm sick of having so many FIRS tickets open
18:12:32  <andythenorth>
18:12:38  <Eddi|zuHause> again: which of the flags do what, and which of these effects do you want to circumvent?
18:12:42  <andythenorth>
18:13:15  <andythenorth> this I think was the main objection:
18:13:16  <andythenorth> "planetmaker: because simply somthing 15 tiles from the centre in 1900 is nicely at the edge. But in 2050 it's in the financial district with high-rise. And it just doesn't fit and is annoying to connect when I have to slash through 30 tiles of town and even make space for a station"
18:14:31  <andythenorth> that's the result of special flag bit 5
18:16:26  <Eddi|zuHause>
18:16:35  <Eddi|zuHause> suggests that you should use bit 4 instead
18:16:49  <andythenorth> bit 4 is too restrictive wrt distance iirc
18:17:10  <andythenorth> hm
18:17:11  <Eddi|zuHause> not according to this documentation
18:17:18  <andythenorth> let's check what's actually used
18:17:19  <Eddi|zuHause> bit 5 has the distance restriction, bit 4 not
18:17:27  <frosch123> bit 4 must replace houses, while bit 5 can
18:18:29  <frosch123> if you want a custom distance check, cb28 has the townzone available
18:18:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that is a too hard restriction
18:20:10  <andythenorth> ach...I'll read the source in a bit
18:20:24  <andythenorth> I don't really care either way
18:20:33  <andythenorth> but the issue won't go away
18:23:09  <andythenorth> ok
18:23:29  <andythenorth> so using bit 4, it's harder to place industries, because they *must* replace houses
18:23:40  <andythenorth> and using bit 5 industries are pegged to 15 tiles or so of the town sign
18:24:07  <andythenorth> neither is really satisfactory
18:27:25  <andythenorth> also... biab, no battery :P
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18:58:46  <NGC3982> Alberth: yes!
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19:07:56  <Eddi|zuHause> why do you have to reboot when the battery is low?
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19:13:26  <frosch123> he does not reboot, he buys a new machine
19:17:14  <andythenorth> mostly I have to shut the lid :P
19:17:56  <andythenorth> although, yes, sometimes I just put the old one in the bin and buy a new one with 100% charge ;)
19:17:57  <andythenorth> 
19:18:43  <Eddi|zuHause> gnah...
19:19:04  <Eddi|zuHause> why does kate's responsivenes decay so much with more than a dozen files open?
19:19:37  <andythenorth> because you haven't patched it to be better? :o
19:20:01  <andythenorth> the benefit of a closed source OS - no obligation to fix it :P
19:22:51  <andythenorth> hmm
19:23:10  <andythenorth> so wrt industry overbuilding the conclusion "get over it, it's a non-problem" ?
19:24:25  <supermop> eminent domain
19:24:45  <supermop> that or the industry ran off the homeowners with hired thugs
19:25:08  <andythenorth> not the answer I was looking for, but thanks ;)
19:25:45  <supermop> basically: i don't think it is a problem whether you want to look at it from gameplay side or realism side
19:28:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think it's a matter of "how much is it really hurting"? you could a) live with the fact that it ends up in the town center. b) live with the fact that it may not appear outside of the town, c) implement a custom population check like ECS, and live with the fact that you cannot overbuild houses, or d) implement a new industry flag that says "may overbuild houses"
19:29:28  <andythenorth> I like a or d
19:29:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd prefer "b" though
19:29:56  <Eddi|zuHause> or "c"
19:30:10  <andythenorth> actually b is better.  andythenorth needs to read more carefully :P
19:30:23  <Eddi|zuHause> seriously, why do you need to overbuild houses?
19:30:23  <andythenorth> I've just changed one of the industries from a to b
19:30:59  <andythenorth> no overbuilding = no industries placed in town
19:31:30  <Eddi|zuHause> the construction callback may check for houses within 3 tile radius or something
19:32:37  <andythenorth> I don't want to require over-building houses
19:32:40  <Eddi|zuHause> then it will almost always be in the outskirts of towns
19:32:56  <andythenorth> fails the case where industry needs to be built in town
19:32:59  <andythenorth> hmm
19:33:16  <andythenorth> I could duplicate industry, same industry twice, different IDs, different placement rules
19:33:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that'll cause all kinds of weird effects
19:34:10  <andythenorth> I feel like I'm not putting the case
19:34:36  <andythenorth> I need to overbuild houses, because there's insanely high probability that there are houses on the tiles where the industry needs to be
19:34:50  <Eddi|zuHause> why?
19:34:58  <andythenorth> because towns have very few gaps
19:35:08  <Eddi|zuHause> there's almost always empty tiles outside the town
19:35:16  <andythenorth> yes
19:35:20  <andythenorth> but that's outside town
19:35:44  <andythenorth> these industries need to build inside town
19:35:54  <Eddi|zuHause> builder's yard: no overbuilding, must have house nearby. shop/hotel: always require overbuilding
19:36:11  <andythenorth> I'm not arguing ;)
19:36:18  <andythenorth> you had me at (b) above :P
19:36:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and what is this then?  <andythenorth> I don't want to require over-building houses
19:36:48  <Eddi|zuHause> looks like arguing to me :)
19:37:25  <andythenorth> I'd rather it was optional to overbuild, rather than required, but if it avoids need for a patch...
19:37:46  <andythenorth> ...means I can close some tickets as 'no change'
19:40:06  <andythenorth> I'm just going to double-check industry_cmd.cpp to be sure there are no distance checks lurking
19:40:20  <andythenorth> sometimes in the past the specs lied wrt industry_cmd.cpp ;)
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20:03:53  <andythenorth> so builders yards replacing houses seems...inverted :)
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20:07:52  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly.
20:08:23  <Eddi|zuHause> ECS has some construction checks that you must have X population nearby. maybe can reuse those
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20:10:12  <andythenorth> for the builders yard, I'm going to try your suggestion of checking neighbouring tiles for houses
20:10:20  <andythenorth> should be adequate
20:11:41  <andythenorth> house within 5 tiles or so
20:11:51  <andythenorth> might be an expensive check, I'll have to walk in all directions :P
20:12:39  <andythenorth> might be wiser to check the town zone, but I never got my brain to understand town zone
20:13:02  <andythenorth>
20:13:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, town zone sounds right
20:13:35  <andythenorth> zone 0 seems plausible
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20:17:50  <andythenorth> good night
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20:32:44  <andythenorth> how to adapt this to use town_zone var?
20:32:46  <andythenorth> CHECK_TOWN_DISTANCE (town_distance,  0, 64, return CB_RESULT_LOCATION_ALLOW)
20:33:42  <andythenorth> I can't find CHECK_TOWN_DISTANCE in nml specs
20:33:44  <Eddi|zuHause> replace the whole thing with "town_zone"?
20:34:25  <andythenorth> sounds plausible
20:35:03  <andythenorth> CHECK_TOWN_DISTANCE must be a cpp macro
20:35:07  <Eddi|zuHause> needs parameters (x,y) relative to northern corner of indutry
20:35:08  <andythenorth> I hate that they look like functions
20:35:21  <andythenorth> yeah, I can write the nml switch fine :)
20:35:43  <andythenorth> I just don't know how FIRS magical codebase works :P
20:36:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, CHECK_TOWN_DISTANCE looks like a cpp macro
20:36:06  * andythenorth greps project :P
20:36:21  <andythenorth> documented cpp macro
20:36:24  <andythenorth> all is well
20:36:36  <andythenorth> cpp does not mix well with nml
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20:36:58  <Eddi|zuHause> prefix all macros with MACRO_?
20:37:01  <andythenorth> maybe :P
20:37:14  <andythenorth> it's totally unreadable, because nml also uses ALL_CAPS_CONSTANTS
20:37:20  <andythenorth> which are valid and useful in lots of places
20:37:42  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but they won't have function-like syntax :)
20:37:49  <andythenorth> well yes
20:38:22  * andythenorth grumbles and goes back to code
20:38:35  <frosch123> night
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20:38:49  <andythenorth> ach, too slow again :|
20:40:26  <andythenorth> gah, I need to pass a variable-length list as parameter option to CPP
20:40:33  <andythenorth> this is a really appalling language :P
20:42:36  <andythenorth> defeated
20:42:42  * andythenorth -> bed :)
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20:49:02  <Terkhen> good night
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21:17:59  <Wolf01> 'night all
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23:30:50  <drac_boy> hi
23:46:18  <Skau1> what is deciding if production is higher or lower?
23:46:32  <Skau1> is there something that can be done to get higher coal productions etc?
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