Log for #openttd on 7th May 2012:
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00:23:23  <Nat_aS> where did biohazard go?
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01:04:24  <DDR> Some guy in a hazmat suit...
01:04:39  <DDR> It was tragic.
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09:29:02  <Lord_Aro> odd browser...
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09:30:39  <LordAro> so, i messed up my debian install :)
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09:31:28  <LordAro> fairly certain i uninstalled my graphics driver, then on fiddling around, messed up gnome and/or xorg :)
09:31:51  <LordAro> in summary, apt-get is now doing a lot of work :D
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10:04:30  <NGC3982> morning
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11:32:39  <swissfan91> can anyone explain why, when creating industry sprites, a snow layer is created for each building rather than just one layer for all snow cover?
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11:33:22  <planetmaker> err what?
11:33:49  <swissfan91> I'm looking at other peoples industries in .psd format, and they all have different layers, for snow etc.
11:34:20  <planetmaker> having snow in a separate layer makes it easy to change the building and generate again a matching snowy sprite
11:34:41  <planetmaker> thus you only change a detail in the non-snowy version and export it once with and once without snow
11:35:28  <planetmaker> it avoids that the building changes when snow falls
11:35:49  <swissfan91> I see. There seem to many layers for snow. E.g. snow layer 1 toggles the snow on the main building. snow layer 2 toggles it on a fence, etc. Why not just have a snow layer that toggles snow on everything?
11:36:35  <planetmaker> again: easier to change. E.g. consider you want to remove the fence...
11:37:09  <planetmaker> consider sprites not as monolithic but as modular things composed of different individual parts
11:37:59  <swissfan91> I see. Thanks!
11:39:07  <swissfan91> also - I am drawing an alpine meadow. Obviously, I want this to be able to go over various types of sloped terrain. Do I just draw meadow sprites for all slope angles, and the coder will make it 'work'?
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11:56:36  <planetmaker> well. Yes.
11:58:20  <swissfan91> in very simple terms :P
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12:58:39  <Belugas> hello
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13:22:19  <Joel_A> what do you guys use for viewing .lng files? I've tried with both Notepad and Notepad++, but they show the files in a rather messy way - not at all as cleanly presented as when I view them in the repository :(
13:23:03  <Eddi|zuHause> what lang file?
13:23:55  <Joel_A> in this case FIRS english.lng, but I don't think it depends on the .lng file itself
13:24:10  <Eddi|zuHause> and what's wrong with it?
13:25:45  <Joel_A> for starters it doesn't show me two separate columns with parameters and values respectively
13:26:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and i have to drag every single bit of information out of your nose??
13:26:41  <Joel_A> it's all a mass of running text with a lot of weird (control?)characters added
13:27:00  <Eddi|zuHause> then it's not FIRS lang file
13:27:03  <Joel_A> actually, it comes through my fingers...
13:27:27  <Joel_A> what is not FIRS lang file?
13:27:54  <Eddi|zuHause> whichever file you are reading
13:28:01  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not from FIRS
13:28:22  <Joel_A> oh, so the lang file from FIRS repository isn't from FIRS?
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13:29:11  <Hazzard> Hi
13:29:20  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever you opened, it's not from the firs repository
13:29:36  <Joel_A> hello Hazzard
13:30:40  <Joel_A> and what makes you (think you) know files downloaded from the repository isn't from the repository Eddi?
13:32:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not questioning you downloading files from FIRS repository, i'm questioning you opening the files you downloaded from FIRS repository.
13:33:12  <FLHerne> Are you trying to open the compiled version or something? That would probably look a bit odd...
13:33:14  <Joel_A> okay, well... I don't have a lot of other lang files lying around
13:37:00  <Joel_A> the r2823 english lang seem to work in Notepad++ now (not in Notepad though, but that's no problem) so I don't know what was wrong earlier
13:37:15  <Joel_A> either way, the problem is gone :)
13:37:52  <Joel_A> thanks for your advice
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14:00:52  <LordAro> debian unstable - a good choice for main desktop?
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14:03:32  <Eddi|zuHause> don't use debian for anything that you touch more than twice a year
14:05:42  <Industrial> Hi. I'm new to TTD though I did play it as a child. I'm reading and I was thinking; can't this illustrated problem be solved by removing the one way signals just before the station?
14:07:42  <Industrial> i'm really looking for examples of T splits etc
14:08:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you can remove the signals before the stations, if you switch the other signal to a path signal
14:14:11  <Industrial> Guess I have some improvement to do? ^^
14:15:30  <NGC3982> that looks neat?
14:16:05  <Industrial> I'm not sure if I should be creating those with bridges/tunnels
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14:16:13  <Industrial> the T splits
14:16:44  <NGC3982> im no pro, but i'd build a circular ring
14:16:53  <NGC3982> so trains never change direction
14:17:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Industrial: these are fine for low traffic
14:18:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Industrial: but you should seriously consider using path signals everywhere
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14:28:05  <NGC3982> Industrial: since it looks you are about to use those railway lines for traffic other then oil, i suggest making a one-way circle system. that way, you will cut the traffic down to >|50%, and with that, the ability to add more trains on the westerlum > helleldam line.
14:28:11  <NGC3982> other then that, it looks nicer.
14:28:15  <NGC3982> but thats just me :)
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14:40:57  <Industrial> k :)
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14:53:27  <andythenorth> lo
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14:53:53  <Eddi|zuHause> you forgot an l :p
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15:12:24  <swissfan91> can anyone point me to the station building tutorial? I can't seem to find it.
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15:14:23  <Eddi|zuHause> tried that way? ->
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15:20:51  <swissfan91> it could have been by Purno :S
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15:29:44  * andythenorth plays openttd
15:30:44  <swissfan91> this may be a stupid question but... when drawing a station tile.. how big a gap do you leave for the tracks?
15:33:11  <andythenorth> swissfan91:
15:33:20  <andythenorth> ^ they are FAIL with railtype newgrfs though
15:33:33  <andythenorth> the only sane answer is to draw for the default tracks
15:33:40  <andythenorth> this will break with railtype newgrfs
15:33:45  <andythenorth> [shrug]
15:35:30  <swissfan91> so, you mean it won't show the loaded rail set, always default tracks?
15:36:12  <andythenorth> it will show the railset
15:36:23  <andythenorth> but the railset may break your station
15:36:39  <andythenorth> by being too wide / too narrow etc
15:37:04  <swissfan91> so nutracks are wider than original tracks?
15:37:14  <andythenorth>
15:37:26  <swissfan91> oh.
15:38:01  <swissfan91> too narrow leading to grass showing through?
15:38:56  <Djohaal> those are very narrow
15:41:17  <swissfan91> from what I remember from the station tutorial, you have to draw stations in two layers, foreground and background, correct?
15:41:38  <andythenorth> yes
15:42:11  <andythenorth> swissfan91: explore the CHIPS source if that helps
15:42:11  <swissfan91> do I do this by creating two separate sprites (e.g. in the example you just sent) or by using the layers function of a drawing program?
15:42:21  <andythenorth> separate sprites
15:42:35  <andythenorth> layers might help your editing
15:42:40  <andythenorth> but makes no difference to the grf
15:43:39  <swissfan91> ah I see.
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15:45:38  <swissfan91> I see the CHIPS sprites are all in 4x4 sprite sheets. Are these the cargo-dependent variations?
15:45:56  <andythenorth> yes
15:46:00  <andythenorth> the layout is up to you
15:46:05  <andythenorth> I just found that one convenient
15:47:04  <swissfan91> it does seem pretty handy. IIRC, station tiles can be coded so that you can click on them to cycle through different variations?
15:48:11  <andythenorth> yes
15:48:18  <andythenorth> hmm
15:48:28  <andythenorth> 256x256 map, industries 'normal'
15:48:32  <andythenorth> I have about 1 of each
15:48:36  <andythenorth> and I'm using pikka grfs
15:48:38  <andythenorth> in 1870
15:48:45  <andythenorth> it's hard to build chains :P
15:48:54  <andythenorth> due to slow expensive vehicles
15:49:11  <andythenorth> no mines next to steel mills :P
15:54:22  <andythenorth> hmm
15:54:26  <andythenorth> FISH needs auto-refit :P
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15:56:26  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and multi-bay ships if you're at it :p
15:56:59  <andythenorth> one is in the spec
15:57:01  <andythenorth> one is not :P
15:57:04  <andythenorth> fix the spec :P
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15:57:13  <andythenorth> then maybe $someone can implement it
15:57:23  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ see he always comes at the right moment
15:57:25  <andythenorth> it's uncanny
15:57:48  <andythenorth> also $someone should make a decent tram set
15:57:51  <andythenorth> are there any?
16:01:20  <swissfan91> Could you look at 'Basic Grey.psd' on here and see if I have the correct idea?
16:03:25  <andythenorth> you need to split it into two sprites for the sprite sorter
16:03:27  <andythenorth> otherwise yes
16:03:46  <andythenorth> [it has to draw some in front of vehicles and some behind, so two split sprites needed]
16:04:14  <swissfan91> indeed, when I publish the sprites anywhere, I'll split them. They're in layers within the .psd, so it will be trivial to do.
16:06:04  <swissfan91> if I draw stations in this manner - they'll take the loaded trackset? There's nothing more annoying than station sets in OTTD that show the default rails all the time.
16:09:17  <Eddi|zuHause> swissfan91: that's a matter of coding
16:09:48  <swissfan91> ah, ok.
16:10:27  <swissfan91> I don't know whether to make a TARS station set (a bit silly, but keeps the TARS thing going), or perhaps do a Swiss Station set, or even merge with DACH.
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16:11:06  <Eddi|zuHause> what would be the difference?
16:11:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you need to actually finish a set, instead of starting ever more ones...
16:11:47  * andythenorth wonders what Pikka thinks the point of the 0-6-0 goods is
16:11:53  <andythenorth> @seen pikka
16:11:53  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 6 days, 2 hours, 25 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <Pikka> nah
16:11:55  <andythenorth> bah
16:12:09  <Eddi|zuHause> imho, we have Enough(tm) station sets.
16:12:57  <andythenorth> you only need one :P
16:13:03  <andythenorth> and I've made it :P
16:13:08  * andythenorth adopts arrogance mode
16:13:49  <swissfan91> yes, I know about all the sets being a bit much. The main problem is a lack of coder. Yes, I could learn it, but that's at least a job until after exams. When I get an urge to draw something, I'd rather just draw it without worrying that it isn't part of the town set, object set etc.
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16:18:30  <swissfan91> at least I'm starting sets with some drawing content, as opposed to just starting loads of sets with just plans.
16:18:53  <andythenorth> ach don't be put off
16:18:59  <andythenorth> if you enjoy drawing, draw ;)
16:19:11  <andythenorth> there's no purpose to any of this anyway
16:20:18  <Eddi|zuHause> swissfan91: i guess the logical next step would be to copy some basic object (or house, industry, ...) code from somewhere, to get your sprites into the game without a lot of functionality.
16:20:43  * andythenorth ponders
16:20:54  <andythenorth> 'logs' instead of 'wood' for GB translation of FIRS?
16:21:17  <swissfan91> hmmm, well I have Wallyweb coding my objects - they're nearly v0.1.
16:21:23  <swissfan91> for towns, yes - perhaps.
16:21:35  <swissfan91> industries - I'm working with George for ECS.
16:21:50  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yes, IMO
16:22:09  <andythenorth> it looks odd to have 'wood' and 'timber'
16:22:16  <andythenorth> 'timber' is lumber - sawn, finished wood
16:22:43  <FLHerne> rename 'timber' then
16:22:48  <FLHerne> :P
16:22:57  <andythenorth> hmm
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16:23:04  <andythenorth> why?
16:23:11  <FLHerne> or wood even, or both...
16:23:31  * FLHerne drifts away from reality again
16:23:35  <andythenorth>  timber is the translated version :P
16:23:54  <andythenorth> is it wrong?
16:24:02  <Nat_aS> morning
16:24:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not an expert, but i'd thought timber was the output of the saw mill
16:24:33  <andythenorth> in GB english, I think so
16:24:47  <andythenorth> so lumber (US / Canadian) was changed to timber
16:24:52  <andythenorth> but that's wrong apparently
16:25:06  * andythenorth is confused
16:31:37  <andythenorth> hmm
16:31:48  * FLHerne now thinks timber is right
16:31:50  <andythenorth> sensible canal costs make a big difference to the gameplay
16:32:28  <FLHerne> Lower or higher than default? I find them rather too expensive normally
16:43:51  <swissfan91> buffer tiles are non-track tiles aren't they? train's can't run half way onto them.. ?
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17:07:59  * andythenorth thinks the FIRS 'improved' station rating might be too generous
17:09:58  <hackalittlebit> Is 'random seed' used only for creating map (height) or is it also used for other stuff? Like position of industries towns etc,
17:12:33  <hackalittlebit> frosch123:
17:12:57  <frosch123> for everything :)
17:13:06  <frosch123> landshape, towns, industries, trees, ...
17:13:29  <hackalittlebit> ok
17:14:08  <hackalittlebit> everytime you open that screen new seed is given
17:14:11  <frosch123> the seed itself is not very useful, everything (all mapgen settings, certain adv. settings, newgrf, ottd version, ..) must be the same to be sure the get the same map
17:14:27  <hackalittlebit> do you need button to generate?
17:14:53  <frosch123> the "rerandomize" button? hmm, maybe not :)
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17:15:16  <hackalittlebit> agreed :) one less
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17:20:35  <andythenorth> it's very annoying when clicking on a dock to add it as an order
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17:20:56  <andythenorth> ...that if a ship is loading there, the click instead is grabbed by the ship
17:20:59  <andythenorth> causing shared orders
17:21:06  <andythenorth> this is new?
17:21:15  <Nat_aS> man, starting with industries that aren't wood is hard
17:21:22  <Nat_aS> takes forever to repay your loan
17:22:05  <andythenorth> don't repay it
17:22:06  <andythenorth> keep it
17:22:48  <Nat_aS> it takes forever to earn enough money to build new lines/trains then
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17:39:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24213 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files): (log message trimmed)
17:39:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:39:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 19 changes by telanus
17:39:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 39 changes by Wowanxm
17:39:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 10 changes by Paragulis
17:39:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 35 changes by habell
17:39:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 39 changes by planetmaker
17:41:17  <Sacro> \o/
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17:43:48  <Terkhen> hello
17:44:03  <Sacro> is a Terkhen a female Turkey?
17:44:15  <Terkhen> last time I checked, no
17:45:23  <Sacro> curious *makes notes*
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17:49:03  <frosch123> Sacro: if you use google's image search, you will notice that "terkhen" is synonymous to "openttd"
17:49:21  <Terkhen> there is other stuff too :P
17:49:37  <frosch123> <- true
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17:55:50  <supermop> Hi all
17:55:55  <Terkhen> I hope that's not associated with my nickname in any way
17:55:56  <Terkhen> hi supermop
17:56:11  <supermop> if I post some borrowed code, can someone tell me why it doesn't work?
17:56:26  <supermop> its nml depot code
17:56:45  <Terkhen> depot?
17:57:12  <supermop> to replace depot graphics depending on railtype
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18:09:16  <Wolf01> evenink
18:12:10  <NGC3982> frosch123: :-O
18:13:21  <supermop> ok I posted what I am trying to work with:
18:13:31  <supermop>
18:24:04  <supermop> can I just delete the parts that check for the other newgrfs, and just check only for the railtypes?
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19:05:57  <Zuu> I've noticed that bin/docs/32bpp.txt is out of date. AFIK the overriding via png files is no longer possible.
19:06:53  <frosch123> fs#5112 :)
19:07:25  <Zuu> hmm, it did not show up when I searched for the filename in th bug tracker.
19:07:40  <Zuu> eg. just "32bpp.txt"
19:08:20  <frosch123> you have to check "search in comments"
19:08:35  <Zuu> oh
19:12:23  <supermop> anyone good with nml around?
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19:28:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24214 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#5159] (r22794): The confirmation window to abort world generation was hidden during world generation, so actually you could not abort it.
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20:02:51  <drac_boy> hi
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20:23:33  <Wolf01> 'night all
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20:23:36  <cypher> Panove, potrebuju nekoho na dust2 spectnout hrace travas cze
20:23:49  <cypher> Wrong room, sry.
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20:56:45  <Yexo> supermop: I'm around now. If you had asked your real question I could have answered it.
21:02:13  <frosch123> Yexo: he posted on the forums
21:07:37  <Terkhen> good night
21:09:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24215 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt luxembourgish.txt polish.txt): -Fix: Translations.
21:09:35  <amelia> nn Terkhen
21:15:04  <frosch123> is there any volunteer to check all scenarios on bananas whether they are completely broken due to removed/changed newgrfs, so we can delete them?
21:15:18  <frosch123> they start to annoy me :s
21:19:34  <Yexo> write a tool that marks all scenarios where any newgrfs have been changed?
21:19:51  <Yexo> perhaps also all scenarios with only firs/ecs newgrfs without any other (so no vehicles)
21:20:08  <Yexo> shouldn't that find the biggest part of the broken ones?
21:20:17  <frosch123> likely :)
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21:24:33  <frosch123> night
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21:43:24  <supermop> Hi, yes I put it up on the forum,
21:43:42  <supermop> I can't understand why it doesn't work with nutracks
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22:06:03  <TrueBrain> miep miep
22:06:07  <TrueBrain> ZOEF
22:06:28  <amelia> ?
22:06:33  <TrueBrain> !
22:06:43  <amelia> !!
22:06:57  <TrueBrain> now you are just spamming
22:07:22  <amelia> You started it.. I am just an innocent caught in the crossfire :P
22:07:49  <TrueBrain> excuses!
22:08:16  <amelia> never!
22:08:26  <TrueBrain> so you admit? :D
22:09:02  <amelia> Nevar!!
22:09:13  <TrueBrain> Surrender, or I will call a duel on you!
22:09:17  <TrueBrain> my train against yours
22:09:27  <TrueBrain> would be the worst game of chicken
22:09:40  <TrueBrain> might not be the best idea :D
22:09:40  <amelia> You wouldn't dare, Patric! My train comes with over 9000 carriages! Never has a platform handled my entire set!
22:09:49  <TrueBrain> OVER 9000?!
22:10:19  <TrueBrain> I have a special card for that .. ah, here it is: 42!
22:10:21  <TrueBrain> ha
22:10:27  <TrueBrain> now all your carriages are pidgons
22:10:27  * amelia :O
22:10:32  <Eddi|zuHause> amelia: you can only have 250 axles on german (and presumably most other european) tracks
22:10:47  <TrueBrain> says who?
22:10:51  <amelia> Eddi|zuHause: they're very long carriages with few axles :)
22:11:03  <TrueBrain> nothing money can't fix
22:11:07  <amelia> TrueBrain: I have a special card for THAT.... my Zero Wing card!
22:11:12  <amelia> All your trains are belong to me!
22:11:27  <TrueBrain> dammit .... told you it would be the worst game of chicken!
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22:12:01  <Eddi|zuHause> amelia: you can't even all your base someone correctly... you fail.
22:12:32  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: this is our battle
22:12:38  <TrueBrain> bugger off :P
22:12:40  <TrueBrain> <3 Eddi|zuHause
22:12:42  <TrueBrain> j/k
22:13:10  <amelia> Eddi|zuHause: shush. you have no chance to survive make your time.
22:13:16  <Eddi|zuHause> it would be "all your train are belong to us!!"
22:13:48  <amelia> it would, except it's my card, so they now belong to me.. I'd say us, but I really have been trying to keep my other personality at bay ;)
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22:16:22  <TrueBrain> pompiedom
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22:17:17  <amelia> Poppadom?
22:17:34  <TrueBrain> correct reply is: lalala
22:20:11  <TrueBrain> waiting for a download to finish ...
22:20:13  <TrueBrain> disk full
22:20:15  <TrueBrain> well, then I can wait for ever
22:20:18  <TrueBrain> *sigh*
22:20:24  <TrueBrain> does it show I am bored? Hmm
22:21:01  <amelia> Indeed
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22:25:06  <Eddi|zuHause> dubdidu
22:26:08  <Hazzard> Hi
22:26:19  <TrueBrain> hello
22:29:37  <Eddi|zuHause> funnily, if you google for "pompiedom lalala", then #openttd logs are one of the first results
22:30:03  <Eddi|zuHause> if you skip all the dutch results
22:30:45  <TrueBrain> I do appoligize for that :D
22:31:28  <Eddi|zuHause> no actual explanation what it means comes up though...
22:31:47  <TrueBrain> honestly, I have no clue either :P
22:32:00  <TrueBrain> to me it is like a marco polo ...
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22:36:03  <Eddi|zuHause> if you google for "palim palim", then the first result is the wikipedia page about it...
22:38:04  <TrueBrain> why would I google that?
22:41:10  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: your post is funny ;) Factories are part of classes .. or objects rather, but meh :P
22:41:14  <TrueBrain> so I don't get how you don't get it :D
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22:41:43  <TrueBrain> other options are stuff like: this->GetInteger(), this->GetShort(), etc
22:41:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. the second part is a later stage of thinking than the first part :p
22:41:48  <TrueBrain> where it fetches from a bitstream
22:42:00  <TrueBrain> but I think via templates it is much nicer
22:42:09  <TrueBrain> we have shown with Squirrel that we can do it with templates
22:43:01  <TrueBrain> but it is kinda intrusive on the current way of doing, so .. will need to make a proof-of-concept etc, and see what others think
22:43:13  <TrueBrain> for sure would improve the readability of commands, as atm ... all the bitpacking .. ugh
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22:46:30  <TrueBrain> but yeah, that was basically what I had in mind ;)
22:46:30  <Eddi|zuHause> some of the bitstuffing is already offloaded into helper functions
22:51:42  <TrueBrain> how I see it, it is just bookkeeping
22:51:53  <TrueBrain> and for that you need a class, so the network knows how many bits/bytes to send
22:51:55  <TrueBrain> ;)
22:52:04  <TrueBrain> force BE over network (as networks are BE)
22:52:07  <TrueBrain> and it should be done :P
22:55:09  <TrueBrain> then again, I might be wrong :D
22:55:11  <TrueBrain> anyway, night all
22:56:53  <Eddi|zuHause> how is BE/LE relevant? should just be the same everywhere
22:57:31  <Eddi|zuHause> probably should use the same as in savegames, as the conversion functions for that could be reused
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