Log for #openttd on 1st June 2012:
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00:48:51  <NataS> are there any trainsets that are like Tropic set, only better?
00:49:14  <NataS> Tropic set has a lot of cool trains, but it lacks a lot of important niches.
00:49:32  <NataS> and it's rolling stock is lame, just refit the same boxcar for everything
00:49:52  <NataS> and upgrade all cars ever 20 years because fuck you that's why.
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01:41:39  <MinchinWeb> I'm running Linux and my AI won't load; how do I get the list of errors?
01:41:55  <MinchinWeb> on Windows I can use  "openttd.exe -d ai=5"...
01:45:11  <glx> same on linux
01:47:44  <MinchinWeb> it starts the game, but the only output to the console is "Unknown debug level 'ai=5'"
01:49:30  <MinchinWeb> seems you have to use 'misc' rather than 'ai'
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01:52:13  <MinchinWeb> ...maybe not; that just lists the files as it find them, but not why it won't load them
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07:21:32  <dihedral> greetings
07:22:34  <Rubidium> moin dih
07:24:00  <dihedral> hello sir, how are you?
07:25:39  <Rubidium> at ~20% of my work month ;)
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07:40:41  <dihedral> either you have a very short work month, or you have way to much to do :-P
07:44:54  <dihedral> desync was not mentioned for a while in changelogs ;-)
07:46:04  <planetmaker> 8 weeks or so? :-P
07:46:12  <planetmaker> hi dihedral & moin all
07:46:39  <planetmaker> actually... 4 weeks
07:46:46  <planetmaker>
07:47:27  * NGC3982 tries office libraries for C#.
07:47:30  <NGC3982> this will be a treat.
07:47:41  <planetmaker> or a threat?
07:47:50  <NGC3982> ;)
07:48:21  <Rubidium> why do you want to use something with sharp edges?
07:48:29  <Rubidium> (or something that's hashed)
07:48:52  <planetmaker> at least make sure to add some salt ;-)
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07:55:57  <NGC3982> hehe ;)
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10:34:34  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24307 /trunk/src/ (widgets/dropdown.cpp window.cpp window_gui.h): -Codechange: Move all interaction of the dropdown window with widgets of the parent window to a method of the parent window.
10:35:35  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24308 /trunk/src/widgets/ (dropdown.cpp dropdown_type.h): -Add: ShowDropDownListAt() for drawing dropdown windows independent of dropdown widgets.
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10:36:30  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24309 /trunk/ (12 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: Split some functions from gui.h to settings_gui.h
10:48:59  <Hazzard> Dammit
10:49:38  <lugo> Janet!
10:53:17  <Hazzard> When I export as PNG in gimp the console says "Invalid palette; does not contain 256 entries."
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11:01:45  <Hazzard> saving as pcx seems to work though
11:02:37  <Hazzard> nvm, it doesnt
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11:04:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Hazzard: you must make sure that you check the option "do not remove unused colours"
11:04:38  <Hazzard> Yes, the colormap shows all the colors, even the unused ones
11:04:50  <Hazzard> gimp seems to be failing to export the paletter
11:05:02  <Hazzard> *palette
11:07:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, because you didn't check the option...
11:07:46  <planetmaker> and... you need to have a paletted image in the first place. You cannot export an rgb image to a paletted one
11:12:19  <Hazzard> I have a properly paletted gimp file (.xcf) and export it into .png. When I try to compile, it gives me the error.
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11:14:48  <planetmaker> how do you know it's properly paletted? :-)
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13:32:57  <planetmaker> @seen smatz
13:32:57  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: smatz was last seen in #openttd 13 weeks, 1 day, 17 hours, 48 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <SmatZ> beer!
13:33:00  <planetmaker> :-(
13:33:35  <NGC3982> 13 weeks, jeez.
13:34:41  <planetmaker> yes... and he's one of the kindest people around...
13:36:24  <NGC3982> how can one measure an orbit with arbitrary feelings?
13:36:27  * NGC3982 trollface.
13:45:18  <Belugas> hello
13:47:32  <frosch123> it's a whale, no troll
13:47:55  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a whaleface then?
13:51:35  <Belugas> a fishy one :)
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14:32:53  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24310 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Add named constants for the dimensions of settings buttons, and generally make their usage more consistent.
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14:33:31  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24311 /trunk/src/ (settings_gui.cpp settings_gui.h): -Add: DrawDropDownButton() to draw dropdown buttons independent of actual widgets.
14:34:04  <planetmaker> but... a whale is a mammal... not a fish ;-)
14:34:33  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24312 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp newgrf_gui.cpp): -Change: Center the settings buttons in the AI and NewGRF config windows.
14:35:26  <frosch123> planetmaker: not when he is trolling :)
14:35:38  <frosch123> obviously a trolling whale makes a fish face
14:35:40  <frosch123> :p
14:35:47  <planetmaker> :-D
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14:49:38  <Eddi|zuHause> what happened to the days when "trolling" meant "walking away"?
14:51:15  <planetmaker> troll Dich doch :-P
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14:55:00  <frosch123> well, the usual trollface looks actually more like a ogre-face
14:55:14  <frosch123> so, i guess some wannabe fantasy author messed it up somehwen
14:55:18  <planetmaker> and during day quite stone-like ;-)
14:56:01  <frosch123> some trolls are always stone
15:00:24  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24313 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp newgrf_gui.cpp settings_gui.cpp): -Fix: Some obiwans wrt. clicking on setting buttons.
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15:04:38  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24314 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix: Editing NewGRF parameters using the query window showed wrong values, if there was no direct relation between parameter index and parameter register.
15:05:18  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24315 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Fix: Make the AI settings window behave more like the other settings window by closing the query window whenever selecting a different row.
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15:11:22  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24316 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Feature: Allow setting adv. settings with limited range using a dropdown list.
15:11:43  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24317 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: Add dropdowns to AI configurations, if all values have labels.
15:12:02  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: frosch * r24318 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_config.cpp newgrf_config.h newgrf_gui.cpp): -Feature: Add dropdowns to NewGRF configurations, if all values have labels.
15:12:11  <planetmaker> quite a feature spree today :-)
15:12:40  <frosch123> feature inflation :)
15:12:54  <planetmaker> pfffff.....t :-P
15:13:08  <frosch123> you should put some good old features into your pillow
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15:22:05  <Eddi|zuHause> how about an action14 value that hides a setting from the gui if newgrf-developer is not set?
15:22:21  <Eddi|zuHause> (not that i have a specific use for that at the moment)
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15:23:40  <frosch123> aren't newgrf settings hidden enough? :p
15:24:01  <frosch123> but well, yes, there are some things which ai parameters have, and newgrfs don't
15:24:11  <frosch123> e.g. the option to just put a random value into a parameter
15:29:24  <Eddi|zuHause> random values in newgrfs are tricky
15:30:20  <Eddi|zuHause> they need to be randomized on the main gui, and then stay constant while setting up the rest of the game (including random seed)
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15:35:39  <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: You could also claim that there is already a such setting for AIs/Scripts to hide settings for non-developers :-)
15:35:56  <Zuu> (there is one, if I was not clear enough)
15:36:03  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123 said that
15:36:25  <Zuu> Oh, I typed quicker than reading backlog :-)
15:36:41  <frosch123> but wrt. unifying them i would first add descriptions to ai settings
15:37:08  <frosch123> though maybe it is clever to add translation support even before that
15:37:32  <Zuu> And drop dificulties for AIs? Or add that legacy stuff to NewGRFs too? (or is that already in NewGRFs?)
15:38:10  <frosch123> well, recently we discussed dropping difficulties completely from the game
15:38:12  <Zuu> Eg. to have 4 default values for settings. One for each difficulty level and custom.
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15:38:58  <Zuu> I wouldn't mind it being dropped. While I like the idea, it doesn't work currently and only adds complexity rather than any benefits.
15:40:35  <Zuu> If we ever get (adv.) setting presets, easy/medium/hard could be added back as presets later.
15:41:11  <Zuu> possible through bananas and thus on the task of the community to maintain them.
15:42:32  <frosch123> yeah, but it would be questionable whether those contain also ai and newgrf settings :)
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15:52:03  <welshdragon> i think the devzone server is broken
15:52:39  <welshdragon> I'm on 110mb connection, and it times out when I try to download something
15:53:23  <welshdragon> it won't let me download anything
15:53:40  <frosch123> ogfx+trains?
15:53:56  <welshdragon> oh wow, that was some epic lag
15:54:06  <welshdragon> no, Chilli's PP
15:55:55  <frosch123> yeah, the http download does not work at all
15:56:10  <welshdragon> really?
15:56:11  <welshdragon> :(
15:56:21  <frosch123> Ammler: ^^ any idea?
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15:57:20  <frosch123> it stops after 16112 byte :)
15:57:57  <welshdragon> it stops after 0 byte
15:58:00  <welshdragon> for me anyway
15:58:17  <frosch123> i geot 16112 byte of 6.4MB and they even look correct
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16:12:13  <Ammler> oh super :-)
16:13:39  <Ammler> I have no clue what happen :-)
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16:15:17  <Ammler> well, bundles is not proxied with nginx
16:15:25  <Ammler> so it isn't related with the hg issue
16:16:08  <Ammler> "There were 107 failed login attempts since the last successful login." :-)
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16:16:39  <andythenorth> lo
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16:35:10  <Eddi|zuHause>
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16:37:37  <andythenorth> that tram is not on the tracks
16:38:12  <andythenorth> looks like the coder has specified the wrong sprite for that angle?
16:40:25  <frosch123> i think they changed newgrfs in game
16:40:38  <frosch123> replaced a rv with a tram while it was turning around
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16:49:09  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: what happend?
16:50:04  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that wasn't really mentioned... i guess the switch was not in the correct position...
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16:59:27  <andythenorth> Fish on Fridays!
16:59:35  <andythenorth> @seen pikka
16:59:35  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 6 days, 10 hours, 33 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Pikka> hello Alberth
16:59:38  <NGC3982> can someone please clean my apartment.
16:59:39  <NGC3982> thank you.
16:59:40  <andythenorth> but no bird :P
16:59:48  <andythenorth> NGC3982: move out
16:59:49  <andythenorth> easier
16:59:58  * NGC3982 needs his mother again.
17:00:42  <andythenorth> @seen zuu
17:00:42  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: zuu was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 19 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <Zuu> possible through bananas and thus on the task of the community to maintain them.
17:11:52  <NGC3982> being a teacher is fairly easy in sweden
17:11:54  <NGC3982> or so it seems
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17:12:17  <NGC3982> a teacher took a full class of kids up on this bridge to do some fishing
17:12:17  <NGC3982>
17:12:36  <NGC3982> a train arrived, and the driver was able to stop in time.
17:12:41  <NGC3982> imagine the disaster.
17:12:41  <CornishPasty> WAT?
17:12:53  <CornishPasty> Think of the train's reliability!
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17:31:05  <andythenorth> k
17:31:17  <andythenorth> so I have between 1 and 3 days where I can probably do ottd stuff
17:31:23  <andythenorth> what shall I do?
17:31:40  <andythenorth> - next FIRS release?
17:31:48  <andythenorth> - make BANDIT compile on devzone?
17:32:03  <andythenorth> - work on CHIPS?
17:32:16  <andythenorth> can't do anything on HEQS
17:34:58  <FLHerne> Adjust the capacity of Tyskebuska Freighters, then add wherries and narrowboats to FISH :P
17:35:38  <andythenorth> FLHerne: I considered your request
17:35:42  <andythenorth> but life is not tidy ;)
17:36:27  <andythenorth> are you shipping stuff at sea, or inland?
17:37:33  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: translators * r24319 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
17:37:33  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:37:33  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 19 changes by telanus
17:37:33  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by Wowanxm
17:37:33  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: dutch - 11 changes by habell
17:37:35  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
17:37:35  <CIA-17> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 30 changes by RunisLabs
17:37:35  <FLHerne> Land->Sea->Land, normally
17:37:46  <FLHerne> Or from oil-rigs inland
17:38:46  <andythenorth> could do a 180t river boat
17:39:05  <Ammler> andythenorth: as bundles is broken, Only "work on CHIPS" is supported ;-)
17:39:26  <andythenorth> Ammler: I can't see any tickets either :)
17:39:27  <FLHerne> Why have the one boat that doesn't quite fit the pattern anyway?
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17:39:36  <andythenorth> because life is imperfect
17:39:55  <andythenorth> it does fit a pattern, it's twice the size of the small trader
17:40:07  <Ammler> andythenorth: then you need to make a break
17:40:27  <Ammler> I guess at least until tomorrow, not sure, I will get it working tonight
17:40:33  <andythenorth> I can live with that :)
17:40:34  <FLHerne> Why not make the small one 90 then? :P
17:40:51  <andythenorth> in fact, it's not twice the size of the small one, that's 85t
17:41:58  <FLHerne> Well, make it 180t, and the small one 90t. Then it'll all match better :D
17:42:10  <andythenorth> no, it's unamusing to do that
17:43:11  <FLHerne> Unamusing?
17:43:23  <FLHerne> The coding, or the actual idea?
17:43:45  <andythenorth> having everything neatly fit together is unamusing
17:46:43  <FLHerne> Oh?
17:46:55  * FLHerne wanders off to get sme fish&chips
17:47:12  <frosch123> you mean fish&ottd ?
17:47:39  <Eddi|zuHause> could offer for each ship a refit option, e.g. 180t, 185t, 190t
17:47:49  <Eddi|zuHause> for "finetuning" of capacities
17:49:04  <andythenorth> ships should have holds :P
17:49:10  <andythenorth> and a magical auto-refit
17:50:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, mixed cargo ships
17:51:35  <andythenorth> I could convert FISH to nml
17:51:54  <andythenorth> and python and such
17:53:25  <Eddi|zuHause> only if that means that afterwards, code is shared 90%
17:53:32  <andythenorth> with?
17:53:44  <NataS> so how WOULD a make a boat speed factor newgrf that speeds up FISH ships?
17:53:47  <NataS> or any ship
17:54:01  <andythenorth> you wait until I convert it to python with a config file
17:54:07  <andythenorth> then you patch it yourself :P
17:54:12  <andythenorth> [only works for FISH]
17:54:48  <NataS> lol
17:55:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: with BANDID, HEQS and FIRS
17:55:58  <NataS> andythenorth, what about cargo aircraft?
17:56:04  <Eddi|zuHause> NataS: don't speed up boats, tune the cargo decay rate instead
17:56:21  <NataS> could you tune cargo decay rate for things in boats?
17:56:43  <NataS> my problem is boats can take years to reach there destination, they still earn money, but only once ever 3 years
17:56:45  <Eddi|zuHause> so e.g. a boat would earn the same money on a trip as a train with twice the speed
17:56:53  <NataS> which is really inconvenient.
17:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause> (only that the train will arrive twice in that time, so you need two boats)
17:57:09  <andythenorth> they'd still be reported as losing money each year
17:57:13  <andythenorth> violating the game goals
17:57:32  <Eddi|zuHause> that's an accounting problem
17:57:38  <Eddi|zuHause> not a newgrf problem
17:57:42  <andythenorth> it's an ottd problem :P
17:57:43  <NataS> i know
17:57:57  <NataS> but it's easier to fix with a newgrf than to change how the UI displays income
17:57:59  <NataS> :V
17:58:00  <Eddi|zuHause> so solve the problem in ottd's accounting code
17:58:33  <Eddi|zuHause> NataS: no, it's not "easier". you just dismiss all the side effects
17:58:49  <NataS> i'm being lazy here
17:58:50  <andythenorth> making boats stupid to fix a problem with P&L periods is silly
17:59:09  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
17:59:18  <Eddi|zuHause> even if i didn't understand half of that sentence :)
17:59:19  <NataS> I don't know how to program, and It seems easier to learn how to code newgrfs than to learn how to tinker with OTTD
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18:00:18  <NataS> also, it's anoying watching boats be so slow
18:00:23  <NataS> compaired to trains
18:00:27  <NataS> I know there speeds are realistic
18:00:32  <NataS> but the scale of OTTD is not realistic
18:00:36  <Eddi|zuHause> NataS: you don't need to program to develop an accounting scheme that is flexible enough to handle very long roundtrip times, and at the same time detects anomalies on short routes
18:01:37  <Eddi|zuHause> once you actually have that scheme, you can think of finding someone to implement it
18:01:57  <NataS> add a lifetime profit display that shows the total groas profit for the vehicle from the moment it was built, including the cost of purchasing the vehicle and any subsequent refits/upgrades/rollingstock
18:02:13  <NataS> Hmm, maybe not rolling stock, that would get complicated
18:02:20  <NataS> considering how cars get moved around.
18:02:36  <NataS> also, multihead engines might get complex
18:02:51  <NataS> Damn
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18:06:54  <NataS> well it could work, vehicles already store the cost of purchase, and you could just add the cost of refits and upgrades to that.
18:07:02  <NataS> it would be complicated, but it could work
18:07:24  <NataS> the lifetime profit would just fluctuate when you recombine trains.
18:07:40  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: not sure how I'd unify code across newgrfs
18:07:46  <andythenorth> I could provide some packages
18:07:49  <andythenorth> one for 'vehicle'
18:08:01  <andythenorth> one for 'render nml templates'
18:08:07  <andythenorth> and then subclass those per set
18:08:25  <andythenorth> I could provide classes for 'ship', 'rv' etc too
18:08:29  <andythenorth> (sub-classes)
18:08:54  <andythenorth> hard to make it: generic; simple; and useful
18:08:56  <NataS> a less complicated idea would just be to include a dropdown menu for the profit display to show last year/2 years, 3 years, ect
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18:09:27  <LordAro> testing, testing, 1, 2, 3...
18:09:48  <andythenorth> vehicle P&L is a stupid concept anyway
18:10:39  <andythenorth> P&L per unit of cargo is the platonic ideal, but completely impossible to determine :P
18:10:42  <FLHerne> me comes back with some fish-n-chips :D
18:10:56  <FLHerne> ./me, even
18:11:00  <NataS> Pay and Loss?
18:11:08  <NataS> Profit rather
18:11:11  <LordAro> hai all
18:11:51  <NataS> i understand that cargo payment is a complex vodo, but faster things pay more. And some cargos are more valuable
18:12:06  <NataS> so just put the most cargo onto the fastest train you can
18:12:14  <NataS> and send it as far as is practical
18:12:24  <NataS> but in the most direct route
18:26:17  <andythenorth> hmm
18:26:25  <andythenorth> what's gained by converting FISH to nml?
18:27:18  <FLHerne> Easier improvement later, presumably?
18:27:46  <andythenorth> yes
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18:33:09  <NataS> why is the fastest FISH boat one of the older ones?
18:33:23  <NataS> well fastest cargo ship
18:33:36  <NataS> not counting the passenger ferries or the hovercraft.
18:36:00  <andythenorth> which one?
18:36:40  <andythenorth> ho, drop down menus \o/
18:36:45  <andythenorth> @frosch123 ^ :)
18:36:54  <NataS> the paddle wheel steamer
18:37:06  <NataS> is the fastest large cargo ship
18:37:33  <frosch123> :)
18:37:43  <andythenorth> it's a side effect of it being intended as a passenger ship
18:38:03  <andythenorth> depending on the world economy, ships have been faster and slower at different points in history
18:38:09  <andythenorth> or at least, as far as I can tell
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18:38:31  <NataS> for game balance, why not fast modern/future ships?
18:38:52  <NataS> asside from a few outliers, FISH ships don't seem to have much date distribution.
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18:39:37  <andythenorth> dates are unfinished
18:39:50  <andythenorth> most are quite wrong
18:40:19  <andythenorth> what would make CHIPS docks better?
18:40:22  <andythenorth> are they too wide?
18:40:31  <NataS> I have not seen CHIPS docks
18:40:57  <NataS> I prefer ISR because it has more eyecandy
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18:41:07  <NataS> even though CHIPS has more advanced features
18:41:39  <andythenorth> FIRS farming chains are still stupid
18:41:54  * andythenorth [is playing a game and thinking aloud]
18:42:39  <NataS> when I was playing around in FIRS, I noticed there was an awquard distribution of the cargos produced by the farm types
18:42:50  <andythenorth> expand...?
18:42:56  <NataS> but I don't remember what the details were
18:43:01  <NataS> I haven't tried it lately
18:43:23  <NataS> I rarely use FIRS because I hate random maps and there are no scenerios for it
18:43:33  <NataS> I like maps with lots of priamaries and few secondaries
18:43:46  <NataS> and intresting/relistic (non random) terrain
18:50:08  * andythenorth makes CHIPS docks smaller
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19:00:03  <Wolf01> evenink
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19:02:13  <Knogle> hmm, can't you do: local knogle = ((popu / goal) * 100); ?
19:02:44  <Knogle> is GS
19:03:09  <Knogle> it returns 0, even though popu is 500 and goal is 10000
19:04:26  <frosch123> might it do a integer divison?
19:05:07  <frosch123> so, swap the / goal with the * 100
19:05:15  <frosch123> if you want a integer result
19:05:25  <frosch123> or add a +0.0 in the middle if you want a float result
19:06:25  <Knogle> I wanna get % of goal
19:06:41  <Knogle> so I want it to do exactly what I typed :P
19:06:52  <frosch123> float or integer?
19:07:17  <Knogle> int
19:07:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Knogle: 500/10000 is 0.05, but this is immediately rounded down, so 0
19:07:46  <Eddi|zuHause> and 0*100 stays 0
19:07:52  <Knogle> oh
19:08:05  <Eddi|zuHause> if you instead do 500*100, you get 50000, and then 50000/10000 is 5
19:08:37  <Knogle> so my math is wrong?
19:09:00  <Eddi|zuHause> not "wrong"... "naive" :)
19:09:46  <Eddi|zuHause> in school you learn that a/b*c is the same as a*c/b, but for computers, it sometimes isn't
19:09:46  <Knogle> so..  local knogle = ((popu * 100) / goal);
19:09:52  <Knogle> would be right
19:09:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:10:06  <Knogle> thanks a lot Eddi|zuHause :)
19:10:15  <Eddi|zuHause> but all brackets there are redundant
19:10:55  <Knogle> would it work without brackets?
19:10:57  <Knogle> nice
19:11:19  <Knogle> thanks a lot guys, I'm still fairly new to this :)
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19:22:11  * andythenorth ponders
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19:22:20  <andythenorth> was the original game better without this newgrf stuff?
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19:35:33  <Knogle> yes :P
19:36:57  <Rubidium> andythenorth: the original game being better has little to do with newgrfs ;)
19:37:37  <andythenorth> is the vanilla (no newgrf) game a better game?
19:37:49  * andythenorth is having newgrf remorse
19:38:26  * Zuu enjoys playing with the original industries as that means less time spent figuring out how the industries work and more to play with tracks.
19:39:01  <Rubidium> andythenorth: can't really tell. Last time I really played OpenTTD, NewGRFs weren't really hot yet
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19:42:18  <andythenorth> hello Zuu
19:42:29  <andythenorth> I like your sign idea wrt scenarios and GS
19:44:00  <Zuu> Great. I see that some of the "old" OpenTTD folks like it. I wonder if any of the target group of scenario developers without programming knowledge have seen it yet or if they are scared by the topic title. :-)
19:44:14  <andythenorth> as far as I can tell, the scenario scripting in Railroad Tycoon 3 used a similar concept of seed points
19:44:27  <andythenorth> so some areas of the map get mines, some textile mills etc
19:44:49  <andythenorth> but there would be some random-ness each time the scenario was played, which was good
19:46:12  <NataS> oh, that sounds cool
19:46:30  <NataS> I just want a secnerio that shows of FIRS though
19:46:32  <NataS> :P
19:46:54  <Zuu> As with most ideas, it need some sort of specification of what sign commands it should handle and an idea on the overview level on how it should be implemented. Then it needs someone familar with the AI/GS system to implement it. :-)
19:49:40  <NataS> but in general, what i'm really looking for is clusters of producing industries separated from single secondary industries located closer to cities.
19:49:45  <Zuu> If I had unlimited of spare time, I would probably do it, but now I already got plenty of spare time projects that wants some love.
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19:51:22  <Zuu> A GS can construct industries the same way as a player can fund industries, but for free. However, NewGRF restrictions still apply.
19:51:58  <Zuu> So you could make a scenario/game with no generation of new industries, and then have a GS that builds industries according to some strategy.
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19:52:33  <NataS> and that stratagy could involve many producers and few secondaries?
19:52:41  <Zuu> Yep
19:52:59  <Knogle> A GS can construct industries for free?, I thought you'd have to use CompanyMode, and the "selected" company would pay.
19:53:04  <Zuu> As the GS have information about if an industry type is a raw industry or not.
19:53:34  <Zuu> Knogle: If you don't use the company mode, you operate as DIETY.
19:53:53  <andythenorth> DIETY is a thin god?
19:54:01  <Knogle> DIETY?
19:54:10  <Zuu> andythenorth: Yes
19:54:25  <NataS> that's a technical term that exists in the game?
19:54:35  <Knogle> so you could in fact, make a script that build a water tower in every town?
19:54:45  <Zuu> Some API functions state in the pre-condition that you must have a company mode active for them to work. So for example the API to construct a HQ can't be used in DIETY mode, only when executing commands under the name of a company.
19:54:54  * NataS just uses manual industries
19:55:22  <NataS> well it makes sense that a non company could not produce an HQ
19:55:23  <Zuu> Knogle: As long as you figure out which industry is the water tower and there is no NewGRF imposed restrictions for the water tower.
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19:57:04  <Knogle> GSIndustryType::BuildIndustry -> Precondition: Valid GSCompanyMode active in scope.
19:57:22  <Zuu> Then, you cannot do that as diety.
19:57:36  <Knogle> so you can't build industries
19:57:41  <Zuu> Which I wonder why there is such a restriction.
19:57:52  <Knogle> because someone has to pay for it :P
19:58:20  <Zuu> Maybe someone though that its the domain of NewGRFs to decide on where to spawn random industries.
19:58:35  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds stupid
19:58:56  <Knogle> it is stupid indeed
19:59:00  <Zuu> But if you get a dev to agree, I think that restriction would make sense to remove.
19:59:07  <andythenorth> the respective domains of newgrf and GS is completely unagreed (unfinished discussion)
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19:59:22  <Zuu> You might want to build some specific industry for your scenario at some given year etc.
19:59:49  <Knogle> I don't care for newgrfs at all, I'd like to be able to control everything with GS :P
19:59:57  <andythenorth> you can't
20:00:01  <Knogle> I know.
20:00:02  <andythenorth> the newgrf spec pre-exists
20:00:11  <andythenorth> for right or wrong
20:00:12  <Knogle> one can dream though
20:00:23  <Zuu> Knogle: It makes no sense to control the amount of smoke from steam trains via GS
20:00:35  <Knogle> Zuu: Ah well, anything map related.
20:00:40  <andythenorth> I did propose removing most of newgrf except graphics
20:01:03  <Knogle> Like I'd love to be able to stop someone from building in a certain town for example.
20:01:34  <Knogle> newgrf should be graphics only, makes more sense to me.
20:01:54  <Zuu> There has to be border when resposibility to provide vehicles, game objects etc. gives NewGRFs control over their things. Although from the GS perspective it would be nice if one is allowed to play god and override the NewGRF rules. :-p
20:02:39  <andythenorth> I got shouted down about my proposal to remove newgrf stuff :P
20:02:59  <Knogle> aw, I support you andy, that gotta count for something :P
20:03:07  <Knogle> hehe
20:03:26  <Zuu> Knogle: Shouldn't NewGRFs also provide some specifications on how the objects they provide work. Eg. the max speed, tractive effort etc. of an engine?
20:03:37  <Zuu> Eg. its more than just graphics.
20:03:58  <Knogle> Zuu: anything related to said graphics, yes, of course.
20:04:08  <andythenorth> depends whether you want GS to be able to adjust that stuff
20:06:43  <Knogle> nah, not if its custom made graphics
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20:34:35  <andythenorth> how long has the default steel mill been broken?
20:34:41  <andythenorth> it can can build on slopes
20:34:58  <andythenorth> I'd raise a FS, but my eyes won't stay open :|
20:35:10  * andythenorth has been needing sleep for weeks :P
20:35:28  <frosch123> i think you can autoslope below them
20:35:50  <frosch123> but it is unlikely to build on a slope
20:36:03  <andythenorth> I had one in a game just now
20:36:06  <andythenorth> broken graphics
20:36:09  <andythenorth> no newgrfs in that game
20:36:26  <andythenorth> also the ground tile for coal mines was incorrect I think
20:36:45  <andythenorth> I have r24319
20:37:09  <frosch123> well, as said, after it is constructed, anyone can terraform below it
20:38:01  <andythenorth> this was a fresh game
20:38:08  <andythenorth> coal mine was correct, that was just my eyes
20:40:09  <andythenorth> can't replicate the steel mill
20:40:23  <Knogle> more company colors should be added, yellow and orange looks the same, and dark blue looks like rivers :/
20:41:55  <frosch123> lol, you mean adding more colours makes it less likely that some look similar? :p
20:42:20  <andythenorth> we need to invent new colours
20:42:26  <andythenorth> add infra-red
20:42:43  <frosch123> you should implement some more types of cones into your eye instead
20:42:45  <andythenorth> it would make you warm
20:42:50  <andythenorth> add uv
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20:44:32  <NataS> some colors could be smart colors
20:44:34  <NataS> or something
20:44:52  <NataS> like I think Simutrans which has day and night, has a specific pallet reserved for lights
20:45:01  <NataS> all this means is they don't become darker at night,
20:48:54  <frosch123> games with day and night are an excellent example why adding too much realism results in total crap
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21:07:41  <frosch123> night
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21:49:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i always disable day/night cycle in simcity
21:49:57  <NGC3982>
21:50:34  <CornishPasty> NGC3982: lol
21:50:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that is really not funny
21:50:58  <CornishPasty> Eddi|zuHause: why? :(
21:51:13  <NataS> well, here's a question
21:51:27  <NataS> how do you model comuters without a day night cycle?
21:52:03  <CornishPasty> NataS: a city that never sleeps, obviously
21:52:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't
21:52:36  <NataS> abstract day/night, which each day lasting a month or a year of game time might be intresting
21:52:42  <Eddi|zuHause> commuter cycles would either be too fast to notice, or too long to fit in with the date
21:53:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and, it has nothing to do with visually making things dark
21:53:13  <NataS> there are days which determine the cycle of passinger traffic, and years which determine technological progress and intrest rates
21:53:26  <NataS> I'm not talking about that though
21:53:35  <NataS> I'm talking about commuters
21:54:10  <NataS> would passingers existing on a different time scale than the rest of the game work.
21:54:11  <Eddi|zuHause> you were talking about special palette colours
21:54:26  <NataS> yeah but the topic creeped.
21:54:29  <NataS> it happens.
21:54:36  <NataS> I was talking about that about 2 hours ago
21:54:58  <Eddi|zuHause> that was just 5 lines ago
21:55:07  <NataS> more than that if you count join/parts
21:55:59  <NataS> anyways, the present is more important than the past
21:56:12  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, that is easily implemented
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21:56:24  <Eddi|zuHause> but the game lacks the management functions
21:56:31  <Eddi|zuHause> so gameplay suffers
21:56:51  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. "go to depot, and wait there 4 hours with reduced running costs"
21:56:51  <NataS> you would need to tie passingers to houses and jobs
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21:57:11  <NataS> for commuters to even make sense
21:57:36  <Eddi|zuHause> that's just a minor adjustment to cargodist
21:58:09  <Eddi|zuHause> besides, it quickly goes up in noise in the statistics, so it doesn't really matter
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22:07:22  * NataS shrugs
22:07:48  <NataS> in general, tieing passingers to homes and workplaces would be more important than making a defined rush hour
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22:25:53  <Wolf01> 'night all
22:25:57  *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
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22:56:35  *** NataS is now known as Nat_AFK
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23:05:34  <Snake956> Hey, I need help!
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23:07:13  <Hazzard> lol
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23:31:08  <FLHerne> That was pointless  8-)
23:31:13  <FLHerne> 'night
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