Log for #openttd on 9th June 2012:
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05:50:24  <Vadtec> for multi-headed trains: does OpenTTD take into account that putting an engine at the back of a train helps with hill climbing and acceleration more than having two engines at the head of the train, as in real life?
05:50:55  <Kylie> bed :)
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06:34:00  <planetmaker> Vadtec: it does not account for that. Only important things are tractive effort, power, weight, air resistance, curve radius (if applicable),
06:34:41  <planetmaker> but please explain how having an engine in a particular place in a train matters in RL :-)
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07:50:31  <Terkhen> good morning
07:54:22  <andythenorth> hola
07:55:24  <Nat_aS> >air resistance
07:55:30  <Nat_aS> this game models AIR RESISTANCE?
07:56:15  <andythenorth> somewhat yes
07:56:29  <andythenorth> or is that ttdp only?
07:56:37  * andythenorth forgets
07:56:53  <Nat_aS> how?
07:57:44  <andythenorth>
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07:59:57  <Terkhen> if by "models air resistance" you mean "it has an arbitrary (speed ^2) reduction called air resistance" then you are right :)
08:00:08  <Nat_aS> lol
08:00:10  <Terkhen> good morning Alberth
08:00:14  <Nat_aS> that's what I was assuming
08:00:24  <Alberth> moin Terkhen
08:00:37  <Nat_aS> but it sounds funny to say it as "air resistance"
08:00:58  <Terkhen> well, it works somewhat like air resistance
08:00:58  <Alberth> call it 'drag' :)
08:01:06  <Terkhen> true, the official name is air drag :P
08:01:07  <Nat_aS> it can be altered though?
08:01:10  <Nat_aS> for Vactrains?
08:01:17  <Terkhen> IIRC vactrains set it to zero
08:01:24  <Nat_aS> Hmm
08:01:35  <Nat_aS> if there is a realistic acceleration patch
08:01:41  <Nat_aS> what about realistic deceleration?
08:02:02  <Nat_aS> buy trains with better breaks or they will crash
08:02:08  <Nat_aS> also, a reason to use cabooses.
08:02:36  <Terkhen> well, the purpose of the "realistic" acceleration is to make vehicle behavior different on slopes
08:02:48  <Nat_aS> actualy, do some trains in a set have lower drag stats than others? like some trains are more streamlined?
08:03:02  <Terkhen> for example, before realistic acceleration, a huge HEQS truck would climb slopes as fast as a small truck
08:03:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is possible
08:03:20  <Terkhen> so, the gameplay purpose of realistic acceleration is to differenciate vehicles a bit
08:03:32  <Terkhen> I don't see any valid gameplay purpose for realistic decceleration besides realism
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08:03:35  <Nat_aS> Trains not breaking magically, or trains being aerodynamic?
08:04:06  <Terkhen> Nat_aS: trains can define how aerodinamic they are
08:04:13  <Terkhen> if they don't, a "default" value will be used for them
08:04:20  <Nat_aS> I just think trains crashing would be lulzy, and it would add another layer of depth, as well as give a real use for cabooses.
08:04:35  <Terkhen> I don't know of any sets besides vactrains that change the air drag
08:05:02  <Terkhen> I think that would be a micromanaging task that only serves a purpose created specifically for that task :P
08:05:26  <Nat_aS> Express trains with overrides for PAX cars could have a 30% reduction in drag or something
08:05:29  <Nat_aS> that would be neat.
08:06:35  <Terkhen> yes, that's currently doable
08:06:37  <Nat_aS> >This property allows to modify the period in ticks after which cargo carried by the vehicle is aged. By default, cargo is aged every 185 ticks. A value of 0 disables ageing of cargo. This property can be modified via callback 36.
08:06:44  <Nat_aS> You can make reefer cars?
08:06:46  <Nat_aS> that's awesome.
08:06:48  <Terkhen> yes
08:07:01  <Nat_aS> man, serves me for only using tropic set
08:07:05  <Terkhen> check OpenGFX+ Trains and OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles (nightly) refrigerated vehicles
08:07:28  <Terkhen> I don't know if there are other sets using the cargo aging property
08:08:14  <Nat_aS> I like a lot of the cool engines in Tropic set, but it lacks advanced features, and leaves many niches empty,
08:08:18  <Nat_aS> also no Monolev trains
08:10:52  <andythenorth> I can only think of braking being interesting in the context of runaways / disasters
08:11:02  <andythenorth> and I don't think it would be interesting for very long :P
08:11:17  <Nat_aS> well consider that if a signal changes suddenly, a train might not stop in time
08:11:18  <Nat_aS> and crash
08:11:25  <Nat_aS> even with it's breaks working normaly
08:11:37  <Nat_aS> because trains take a while to slow down, even in ideal situations.
08:12:38  <andythenorth> it would only be amusing for the first couple of crashes
08:12:40  <Terkhen> in real life signals don't change suddenly either
08:12:45  <Terkhen> unless something "wrong" happened
08:12:52  <Nat_aS> yes
08:13:07  <Nat_aS> but in OTTD signals are bianary, and trains stop on a dime.
08:13:16  <andythenorth> after it happens a couple of times, most players would probably disable it using the inevitable advanced setting :P
08:13:26  <Nat_aS> lol
08:13:45  <andythenorth> in Railroad Tycoon, cabooses reduce breakdowns and train robberies
08:13:51  <Terkhen> signals change randomly and trains can stop instantly -> no random crashes
08:14:15  <Nat_aS> I like how in OTTD, airplanes are the most dangerous form of travel
08:14:19  <Terkhen> signals don't usually change suddenly and trains take time to stop but they know when will they stop beforehand -> almost no random crashes
08:14:29  <Nat_aS> in fact the only form of travel with any measurable risk.
08:14:32  <Terkhen> different ways of doing it, same result, and the first one is simpler :)
08:14:50  <Nat_aS> as opposed to real life where it's the safest form of travel per person per mile.
08:15:25  <Terkhen> the simplest way of implementing random train crashes would be a "% chance of train driver ignoring a signal"
08:15:43  <Nat_aS> yes
08:15:50  <Nat_aS> train robberies would also be a cool thing
08:15:54  <andythenorth> iirc planes are the most dangerous form of transport per person per unit time spent
08:15:56  <Nat_aS> too bad no newgrf disasters.
08:16:06  <Nat_aS> andythenorth, no. not at all
08:16:10  <Nat_aS> CARS are dangerous
08:16:17  <andythenorth> are they?
08:16:19  <Nat_aS> Airplanes are not.
08:16:30  <Nat_aS> Cars are the most dangerous, airplanes are the safest.
08:16:35  <andythenorth> really?
08:16:37  <Terkhen> but given that one of the most asked feature request we had was "disable aircraft crashes", we are understandably wary of implementing any kind of disasters
08:16:37  <Nat_aS> yes
08:16:46  <Nat_aS> lol yes
08:17:16  * andythenorth wonders if wikipedia has stats
08:17:16  <Terkhen> besides that, I personally don't find them fun so I always play without them and without aircraft crashes :P
08:18:09  <Nat_aS> .05 deaths per billion kilometers
08:18:18  <Nat_aS> Car is 3.1
08:18:29  <Nat_aS> walking is 54.2
08:19:19  <andythenorth> I know the passenger miles case
08:19:26  <andythenorth> but that's not the same as passenger-units-time
08:19:31  <andythenorth> due to s = d/t
08:19:35  <Nat_aS> Oh, per billion journeys it's higher.
08:19:49  <Nat_aS> but safer than bicycle
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08:20:12  <andythenorth> ok, so it's equivalent to rail
08:20:32  <andythenorth> and per journey it's relatively unsafe
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08:23:56  <Nat_aS> it's still absurd that airplanes can crash, but trains and cars can't.
08:25:09  <andythenorth> [shrug]
08:25:31  <Terkhen> disable aircraft crashes then, that's what I do
08:26:00  * andythenorth wonders what the point of openttd is, and how to make it better
08:26:18  <Nat_aS> the point is to play with trains
08:26:31  <Nat_aS> and make a big huge countryside with cool trains
08:26:44  <Nat_aS> also trucks and airplanes and boats
08:26:51  <Nat_aS> because trains can't go everywhere
08:28:20  <Nat_aS> also industries and cities
08:28:24  <Nat_aS> because trains need cargo
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09:01:41  <Alberth> moin
09:01:42  <Wolf01> hello
09:02:28  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
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10:22:48  <LordAro> morning all
10:22:57  <LordAro> it's morning for me, anyway ;P
10:26:59  <Eddi|zuHause> good noon then :)
10:27:46  <Hazzard> good after noon :)
10:34:15  <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically, "noon" is at 13:00 CEST
10:35:07  <Eddi|zuHause> (that is in 17 minutes)
10:35:23  <Terkhen> hi LordAro
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10:59:00  <Alberth> hai frosch
10:59:12  <frosch123> afternoon albert :)
11:00:59  <Terkhen> hi frosch123
11:02:50  <frosch123> hola terkhen :)
11:04:13  <Hazzard> hey guys
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11:40:03  <perk11> hey, I'm trying to start a dedicated server, but ignores all grf I put into [newgrf] section, and after I stop server this section is clean
11:40:13  <perk11> and it doesn't show any errors about newgrfs
11:40:17  <perk11> what can it be?
11:41:04  <frosch123> if it removes the stuff from the cfg, then it must be invalid syntax or incorrect paths
11:41:31  <frosch123> anyway, easiest way to start a game is to create a savegame with a gui client, transfer that to the server
11:41:37  <frosch123> and then let the server run that game
11:42:15  <perk11> I transfere openttd.cfg instead, but trying this
11:42:28  <Terkhen> from windows to linux?
11:42:32  <perk11> yep
11:42:37  <frosch123> then it might be a / \ issue
11:42:41  <perk11> ohh
11:42:43  <Terkhen> yes
11:42:51  <perk11> always forgeting
11:42:53  <perk11> thanks
11:44:20  <perk11> it worked
11:44:26  <frosch123> :)
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13:04:57  <Eddi|zuHause> so... who revived richk67?
13:06:17  * Alberth wondered about that too
13:07:46  <Alberth> but I am guessing the email system did
13:10:28  <frosch123> whining about airports?
13:12:47  <Terkhen> nope, about code purists
13:12:48  <Terkhen>
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13:32:15  <NGC3982> im using 1.2.0 on a normal w7 machine
13:32:42  <NGC3982> when i create single player games, i no longer see the "creating map" window when generating a new map.
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13:33:51  <NGC3982> it simply freezes, and the map starts after a few seconds.
13:34:08  <NGC3982> i notice this doesnt happen on all the other computers i have, and all of them have severly less computer power.
13:34:23  <Terkhen> does that happen in 1.2.1 too?
13:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that depends on whether you compiled with thread support
13:34:42  <Terkhen> and maybe the window appears and dissapears too quickly :P
13:36:32  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: compile?
13:37:02  <NGC3982> Terkhen: i dont think so. that usually just make the map start right away.
13:37:21  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: thread support, as in installed it on a ..>1 core cpu?
13:37:21  <NGC3982> :E
13:37:44  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: no.
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13:38:11  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: if you did not compile yourself, and took the binary from the main website, then this does not apply to you
13:40:10  <NGC3982> ah, i see.
13:40:23  <NGC3982> yes, i just installed a complete 64bit version of 1.2.0
13:40:30  <NGC3982> and did nothing special with it
13:41:16  <Alberth> I think you should be glad, it stopped wasting CPU cycles on showing it is working for you
13:41:40  <Alberth> like you don't know when you press 'generate game' :p
13:42:05  <NGC3982> haha ;)
13:42:16  <NGC3982> well, of course not a big of a deal
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14:06:33  <NGC3982> ah
14:06:41  <NGC3982> i have found my favourite setup
14:07:08  <NGC3982> ECS+FIRS+UKRS(2) anno 1832, 128x128, lots of elevation.
14:07:56  <Eddi|zuHause> ++
14:08:02  <Eddi|zuHause> err
14:08:26  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: ECS and FIRS cannot be combined
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14:13:36  <NGC3982> oh, sorry, ECS
14:13:40  <NGC3982> i was looking at the trainset name
14:16:42  <NGC3982> right now, im using the urks2, urks2+, ecs agricultural+basic+chemical
14:16:43  <NGC3982> <3.
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16:42:48  <Vadtec> planetmaker: ping
16:43:02  <Terkhen> pong
16:43:17  <Wolf01> interceptor
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16:44:31  <andythenorth> bonsoir
16:44:40  <Wolf01> hi andy
16:45:40  <Terkhen> hello andythenorth
16:45:49  <andythenorth> did I miss anything?
16:46:19  <Alberth> mostly a network split
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16:46:40  <Terkhen> train crashes, slash issues, impossible NewGRF combinations and a game of ping pong
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16:48:07  <Vadtec> planetmaker: to answer you, having an engine at the back of a train IRL helps to keep slack out of the cars
16:48:08  <Vadtec> planetmaker: this allows a train to go around corners and up and down hills more quickly because the engines arent fighting the trains wanting to speed up and slow down compared to the engines
16:48:08  <Vadtec> planetmaker: its not that putting an engine at the rear does something magical to make the train faster
16:48:08  <Vadtec> planetmaker: its that it helps keep the train in a more controlable state which reduces the strain on the engines
16:48:38  <Vadtec> meh....typos
16:48:45  <Vadtec> i haz a few
16:48:54  <Alberth> use a pastebin, and post the url :)
16:49:22  <Alberth> or send a PM :)
16:50:30  <Vadtec> sorry about that, didnt mean to paste it all at once, i was answering a question he asked me last night
16:51:11  <Alberth> oh, I was more referring to the ability to fix typos before posting :)
16:51:19  <Vadtec> oh :P
16:52:09  <andythenorth> Vadtec: DPUs also save air / make braking more responsive
16:52:21  <andythenorth> in addition to the other points you made ;)
16:52:36  <Vadtec> andythenorth: true, i failed to mention that
16:54:13  <andythenorth> they probably help prevent stringlining the cars I guess
16:54:48  <Vadtec> im not familiar with the term "stringlining"
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16:55:05  <andythenorth> on curves
16:55:08  <andythenorth> I'll find an image ;)
16:57:56  <Vadtec> are you referring to the tendency of the cars to lean to the outside of the curve at high speeds, especially when the track isnt banked?
16:58:25  <andythenorth>
16:58:30  <andythenorth> can't find a good image :P
16:59:12  <Vadtec> ah, ok, now i know what you are referencing
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16:59:38  <Vadtec> and yes, it does help prevent that, because there is much less slack to allow the cars to whip around and derail
16:59:50  <Vadtec> though the best solution is to slow down :P
17:00:51  <Vadtec> i was just curious last night if OpenTTD accounted for engines at the rear or not
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17:02:28  <Terkhen> position is only taken into account for weight in slopes, IIRC power from all vehicles is considered to be at the leading vehicle
17:02:49  <andythenorth> ottd trains don't have to worry about losing their air
17:03:08  <Terkhen> hmm... I have time to code today but I don't feel like it
17:03:19  <andythenorth> Terkhen: not every day is a coding day
17:03:33  <andythenorth> some days are procrastinating days
17:03:37  <andythenorth> or talking nonsense days
17:03:55  *** DOUK [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04:06  <Terkhen> yeah, I have one of the nonsense kind
17:04:18  <andythenorth> today is a "how could openttd be better" kind of day]
17:04:29  *** Rhamphoryncus [] has joined #openttd
17:04:41  <Terkhen> add yacd and extended heightmaps
17:05:07  <Terkhen> also, FISH and HEQS with proper autorefit support :P
17:05:19  <Vadtec> oh well, it was just a curious question, other than the astetics (sp?) of it, i now know it doesnt help performance :P
17:05:44  * andythenorth has been finding games boring
17:05:47  <Terkhen> Vadtec: it doesn't hurt it either, so you can still use it for the aesthetics :)
17:05:53  <Terkhen> andythenorth: code a goal script
17:05:57  <andythenorth> maybe
17:06:07  <andythenorth> I'm in anti-goal mood right now :)
17:06:48  <Terkhen> play a different game, one in which you can just destroy stuff
17:06:49  <Terkhen> :P
17:07:41  <andythenorth> I have been thinking about telic and paratelic states :P
17:07:41  <andythenorth>
17:07:50  <andythenorth> mostly wrt work, but also the game
17:08:35  <andythenorth> in summary: telic = goal orientated; paratelic = playful
17:09:01  *** Nat_AFK is now known as Nat_aS
17:09:02  <frosch123> "if (c != 0) continue else break;" <- i cannot remember ever having written a line of code with so many reserved words in a row
17:09:07  <Terkhen> why are those opposites?
17:09:10  <andythenorth> people switch fluidly between the states
17:09:18  <Terkhen> Nat_aS: could you please turn off the AFK change?
17:09:38  <Nat_aS> why?
17:09:51  <andythenorth> Nat_aS: you only need to do afk/brb/biab etc if you're in the middle of a conversation with someone
17:10:01  <andythenorth> if you have someone awaiting your answer, it's polite
17:10:05  *** cyph3r [] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
17:10:07  <andythenorth> otherwise it verges on spam ;)
17:10:25  <Nat_aS> I understand the rule in the co-op channel, but most IRC comunities, this is the norm.
17:10:50  <Alberth> nope
17:10:57  <Terkhen> we usually just say "brb" or "afk" in the chat if we are in the middle of a conversation, otherwise no warning is needed
17:11:00  <Nat_aS> no, I'm pretty sure it is
17:11:09  <Alberth> not here
17:11:11  <Nat_aS> having a shitty connection and parting joining a lot is much more spammy
17:11:13  <Nat_aS> I said most.
17:11:40  <andythenorth> nobody argued you were wrong about most
17:11:43  <Nat_aS> but sure, I'll change it.
17:11:43  <andythenorth> ;)
17:11:58  <Nat_aS> Alberth did
17:12:17  <Terkhen> Nat_aS: I agree, those are way more annoying... they also get a request and, in time, a kick or tempban
17:12:18  <Alberth> in my community channels the norm is to not do it
17:12:20  <andythenorth> time motivation of paratelic: Wish to prolong
17:12:29  <andythenorth> time motivation of telic: Wish to complete
17:12:38  <Nat_aS> well I changed it
17:12:41  <Alberth> thanks
17:12:43  <andythenorth> \o/
17:12:44  <Terkhen> Nat_aS: thank you :)
17:13:13  <Terkhen> andythenorth: civilization fixes that with a "Just one more turn" popup after you win (or lose) a game
17:13:25  <Terkhen> in OpenTTD... it is implied that you want to continue :P
17:14:53  <frosch123> i think civ does not ask you that question if you lose by extermination
17:15:23  <Terkhen> probably not :P
17:16:06  <andythenorth> default TTD was very addictive, but not because I was trying to win the 'meh' goals
17:16:21  <andythenorth> it's constant small challenges that have no purpose other than the immediate
17:16:27  <andythenorth> 'get enough money to build a tunnel'
17:16:30  <andythenorth> 'fix this junction'
17:16:34  <andythenorth> 'start a ship route'
17:16:46  <andythenorth> 'omg, how to upgrade all trains to monorail'
17:16:47  <andythenorth> etc
17:17:22  <andythenorth> also I mostly only played 100 years
17:17:34  <glx> the last one is easy, skip monorail and wait for maglev :)
17:17:40  <Nat_aS> it dosn't help you need like a dozen industries just to get a good flow of goods
17:17:51  <Nat_aS> hey, CRAZY IDEA
17:17:56  <Nat_aS> for an industry replacement set
17:18:13  <Nat_aS> what if, you could send ore to steel mills, OR directly to factories
17:18:14  *** |Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
17:18:31  <Nat_aS> if you send it to the mill, it makes metal, which will make even more goods if then sent to the factory
17:18:44  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit []
17:18:48  <Nat_aS> if you skip the mill and send the ore to the factory, it makes goods, but less of them
17:19:07  <andythenorth> code it
17:19:11  <Terkhen> that can be done, yup
17:19:27  <Terkhen> NewGRFs allow all kind of crazy stuff
17:19:36  <andythenorth> railroad tycoon 3 was also insanely addictive, but completely challenge based
17:20:10  <andythenorth> and after completing a challenge, I almost never played it again
17:20:16  <andythenorth> and I never played sandbox mode
17:20:32  <andythenorth> maybe I should start playing Dwarf Fortress
17:20:42  <Nat_aS> no challenge in DF
17:20:47  <Nat_aS> you just play untill you lose
17:20:53  <andythenorth> sounds great
17:21:00  <Nat_aS> and then you play again to see how long you can go without losing once more
17:21:05  <Nat_aS> because 'losing is fun'
17:21:10  <andythenorth> play until you lose <- probably the best simulation of real life so far
17:21:26  <Nat_aS> lol
17:21:47  <Nat_aS> survival mode
17:21:57  <Nat_aS> OTTD dosn't have that though
17:22:02  <Nat_aS> the game is only hard at the begining
17:22:11  <andythenorth> so my guess is that I would like an openttd that mixes telic and paratelic behaviour
17:22:19  <Nat_aS> once you have a few profitable routes, money becomes irrelevant.
17:22:28  <andythenorth> i.e. some imposed goals, and some activities that have no purpose other than being playful
17:22:31  <Nat_aS> it becomes imposible to lose if you keep things efficant.
17:22:31  <Terkhen> nice, "we" are being "rescued"
17:22:42  <andythenorth> from what?
17:22:48  <andythenorth> oh, I see
17:22:51  <andythenorth> economic meltdown :P
17:23:02  <andythenorth> Terkhen see, real life is like Dwarf Fortress :P
17:23:11  <Nat_aS> inflation can make the game harder, but not by much
17:23:27  <andythenorth> inflation is not the solution
17:23:29  <Nat_aS> Problem is, not having money is unfun in OTTD
17:23:44  <andythenorth> inflation isn't harder, it's impossible after a certain point
17:23:50  <Terkhen>
17:24:02  <Nat_aS> because most of the time it means waiting
17:24:31  <Nat_aS> man, it pisses me off that americans are complaining about the economy still
17:24:38  <Nat_aS> we are just fine, look at europe
17:25:08  <Nat_aS> it's just tea partiers exploiting declinism to gain political power
17:25:12  <Nat_aS> and ruin america
17:27:17  <Terkhen> it's disgraceful that our president is not even going to make a public appearance
17:28:45  <Terkhen> and don't get me started about all the corrupt politicians, retirement worth millions for bankers that have crashed banks and so on
17:28:47  <Terkhen> meh
17:30:38  *** flaa [~flaa@] has quit [Quit: leaving]
17:31:08  <Wolf01> Terkhen: sounds like the shit is all the same in the world
17:31:45  <Terkhen> Wolf01: I can't tell how deep is ours in comparison with other places because I have only lived in spain... I can only say that it is quite deep
17:32:16  <andythenorth> it is relatively deep afaict
17:32:45  <andythenorth> although for comparison, when I left school, it was in a place with 25% male unemployment, and the highest per-capita murder rate in the country
17:33:44  <Wolf01> we might reach the 100% of politician murder rate in about a year if the system would continue this way
17:33:58  <andythenorth> meh
17:34:14  <Terkhen> andythenorth: we have a nation-wide 25% unemployment rate
17:34:20  <andythenorth> I know :(
17:34:33  <andythenorth> I employ a spanish graduate here in the UK
17:34:44  <Terkhen> which IIRC gets to 40% for the 20 to 30 age interval
17:35:04  <Terkhen> your graduate and me are really lucky just to have a job, most of my friends are just "waiting"
17:36:05  <Wolf01> we have a lot ov job instead, but nobody want those jobs because everybody now wants graduated jobs
17:36:18  <Wolf01> s/ov/of/
17:36:39  <CIA-8> OpenTTD: translators * r24336 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt latvian.txt polish.txt swedish.txt):
17:36:39  <CIA-8> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:36:39  <CIA-8> OpenTTD: hungarian - 7 changes by IPG
17:36:39  <CIA-8> OpenTTD: latvian - 13 changes by Parastais
17:36:39  <CIA-8> OpenTTD: polish - 7 changes by wojteks86
17:36:40  <CIA-8> OpenTTD: swedish - 6 changes by Joel_A
17:38:14  <andythenorth> in principle, Europe should be fine in the medium term
17:38:35  <andythenorth> we have insanely good physical and intellectual infrastructure, with strong civic society
17:39:06  <andythenorth> borrowing to support lifestyles may look to be somewhat of a mistake in retrospect though :P
17:39:18  *** bryjen [~bryjen@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:40:32  <andythenorth> a relative decline in living standards is going to be a bitter thing for many people
17:40:49  <andythenorth> but unless we go nuts and talk ourselves into civil unrest - or war - life will go on
17:41:03  <Terkhen> it's not only about living standards... the spanish goverment has been cutting money mostly to public health, education...
17:41:41  <andythenorth> hmm
17:42:02  <Wolf01> same here, so they had more money to purchase about 400 more "blue cars"
17:42:16  * andythenorth has mostly been living in a bubble in this recession, in a city mostly unaffected by the economy
17:42:17  <Terkhen> Wolf01: yes, I can relate :)
17:42:40  <Terkhen> official cars, advisors selected by finger that are paid handsomely and so on... no cuts there
17:43:05  <andythenorth> power will do what power does
17:44:06  <andythenorth> the danger of these arrogant elites is that the public mood turns to support populist extremists
17:44:24  <andythenorth> on the left or right
17:44:36  <andythenorth> and then we sleepwalk back into 1939 or such
17:44:44  <Terkhen> yeah
17:46:31  <andythenorth> if we avoid that, the rest will come out ok in the wash
17:47:31  <andythenorth> in the UK at least, it's really positive to have a much lower emphasis on money and material posessions
17:47:40  <andythenorth> conspicuous consumption is out of favour
17:47:59  <Terkhen> yes, everything will get better in time
17:48:05  <andythenorth> which is good, because it's like candy floss: fun for the first few bites, then sickening
17:48:22  <andythenorth> are Spain's unemployed graduates doing startups?
17:48:30  <Terkhen> until next time they can do this
17:50:35  <Terkhen> andythenorth: sure, the ones who can get the money
17:51:02  <andythenorth> don't need a lot of money do do startup
17:51:23  <andythenorth> my mum paid my rent for 6 months
17:51:29  <andythenorth> I bought a computer on a credit card
17:51:54  <andythenorth> we got server space from one of the other founder's dads
17:52:10  <andythenorth> recessions are a good time to do startup
17:52:28  <andythenorth> at least, for internet stuff
17:52:33  <andythenorth> tech that needs manufacturing less so
17:52:41  <andythenorth> and stuff that needs R+D even less so
17:53:20  <Terkhen> that can work if your parents have money to spare, IIRC they mentioned that we have about half a million families in which neither of the parents is able to find a job
17:53:34  <Terkhen> so yes, the ones who have money can try a startup
17:53:46  <andythenorth> and the rest - how do they make rent?
17:54:25  <Terkhen> when the unemployment money and their savings run out... they don't
17:54:50  <andythenorth> yeah, that's not going to end brilliantly :|
17:55:12  <Terkhen> IIRC we had about 150 families losing their homes each day
17:55:17  <Terkhen> :P
17:56:08  <Terkhen> anyways, we'll have to see how this ends
17:56:57  * andythenorth wonders what happened here:
17:58:09  <andythenorth> hey look! aqueducts :)
17:58:37  <Terkhen> I agree, time for a topic change :)
17:58:43  <Terkhen> lately I have been travelling on train a lot
17:59:01  <Terkhen> whenever I take one I think about the forgotten spain train set
17:59:37  <andythenorth> how do we make this in ottd?
17:59:37  <andythenorth>
17:59:37  <andythenorth> or is that what SAC is doing? :)
18:00:37  * andythenorth ponders goals
18:02:57  * andythenorth ponders a trip to tehachapi
18:04:25  <andythenorth> this tumblr is very addictive
18:09:52  <NGC3982> andythenorth: neat picture
18:10:38  <andythenorth> I am on page 45 of 88 :P
18:10:46  <andythenorth> been reading that blog since yesterday :P
18:12:43  <NGC3982> :D
18:15:48  <andythenorth> if I could come up with some interesting game goals, I might learn GS
18:15:54  <andythenorth> squirrel looked brain dead simple
18:16:04  <andythenorth> and I have installed an interpreter locally :P
18:18:56  * andythenorth ponders something horrible
18:20:01  <andythenorth> I need an economy newgrf that modifies (FIRS) cargo payment rates (custom profit calculation cb)
18:20:36  <andythenorth> modification would be based on a spot-price per town
18:20:43  <andythenorth> spot prices would be set by a GS
18:21:00  <Nat_aS> so some towns would be better or worse economicly?
18:21:21  <andythenorth> you would have an incentive to deliver certain cargos to x not y
18:21:24  <andythenorth> or vice versa
18:21:30  <Nat_aS> maybe one would borrow tons of money and pay extra for goods, but then there creditors call them out, and they become bancrupt.
18:22:55  <andythenorth> wouldn't affect town ;)
18:23:00  <Nat_aS> oh
18:23:01  <andythenorth> just the rate your earn for transport
18:31:18  *** Netsplit <-> quits: tparker, Nat_aS, DabuYu, Eddi|zuHause, @Belugas, @orudge, George, jonty-comp, roadt_, mikegrb,  (+22 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
18:32:03  *** Netsplit over, joins: jonty-comp, Born_Acorn, George, @orudge, EyeMWing, Vadtec, lugo, namad8, @Belugas, kkimlabs (+13 more)
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18:33:02  <Kylie>  wow
18:33:06  <Kylie> netsplit
18:33:21  <Nat_aS> hows that for spam
18:33:48  <Alberth> sue :p
18:34:11  * Kylie blocks the suit
18:36:53  * NGC3982 wants to buy a new suit.
18:37:52  * Kylie gives NGC3982 money to buy a new suit.
18:38:32  <andythenorth> maybe that's the solution to 'too much money' in ottd?
18:38:35  <andythenorth> 'suit charge'
18:38:42  *** mode/#openttd [+v orudge] by ChanServ
18:38:42  *** ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only
18:38:42  *** mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
18:38:45  *** mode/#openttd [+v Alberth] by ChanServ
18:39:34  <andythenorth> is 'too much money' solved by infrastructure maintenance?
18:44:49  *** FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
18:44:50  *** bryjen [~bryjen@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:45:23  <frosch123> lol, why would anyone put "openttd" into the tags of a bananas item?
18:46:49  <Nat_aS>  because you don't want it to be confused with TTDpatch
18:51:15  <andythenorth> can GS manipulate your company finances?
18:53:06  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:57:07  <Eddi|zuHause> someone asked recently what a "ferry boat wagon" was, see this:,5938204
18:57:32  <andythenorth> can I add it with GS? :P
18:57:42  * andythenorth will stop being silly
18:57:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess not :p
18:57:46  <andythenorth> so where are the GS docs?
18:57:53  <andythenorth> forum holds no clues
18:57:59  <Eddi|zuHause> next to the AI docs?
18:58:13  <NGC3982> "Berichte und Fragen zur Vergangenheit der Eisenbahn"
18:58:16  <NGC3982> tihi, german.
18:58:20  * NGC3982 giggles.
18:58:51  <andythenorth> lo, here we go:
18:59:45  * andythenorth ponders a blinkenlights GS
18:59:59  <andythenorth> it just builds tiles in patterns, and overbuilds them to produce flashing effect :P
19:00:07  <andythenorth> also, christmas greetings nogo :P
19:00:48  <TrueBrain> omg, what have I done!
19:00:49  <TrueBrain> :P
19:01:09  <andythenorth> what storage does GS have?
19:02:04  <Alberth> compared to newgrf? infinite
19:02:55  <andythenorth> trying to figure out if GS can do 'delivered cargo' challenges
19:02:56  <Eddi|zuHause> are NewGRFs turing-complete?
19:03:16  <andythenorth> 'It's 1965: deliver 20,000t of coal to Frininghamton by 1997'
19:03:24  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no
19:03:29  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: NoGo links are on our Links page :P
19:03:35  <TrueBrain> (it wasn't 3 minutes ago, but it is now! :P)
19:03:42  <andythenorth> :)
19:03:45  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: actually that's the central point about them
19:03:56  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: now all you need is virtual goods, and you can build some nice noGos!
19:03:59  * TrueBrain looks at frosch123 :P
19:04:17  <andythenorth> I need virtual goods for cargo challenges?
19:04:23  <TrueBrain> yes!
19:04:25  <andythenorth> why!
19:04:26  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well, during initialization they might be, as you can jump backwards with action 7/0
19:04:28  <TrueBrain> power supplying!
19:04:30  <Eddi|zuHause> 9
19:04:31  <andythenorth> meh
19:04:41  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I am just pulling frosch123's leg
19:04:46  <andythenorth> :)
19:04:46  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: who cares about initialisation?
19:04:46  <TrueBrain> he once startd that feature :)
19:04:55  <andythenorth> I am thinking 'simple' for GS
19:05:00  <frosch123> TrueBrain: it's on my list
19:05:04  <andythenorth> we have so much inter-dependent crap already
19:05:14  <frosch123> virtually on paper only 50cm away for me
19:05:22  <frosch123> the list of things to do in the past 3 weeks :p
19:05:23  <TrueBrain> frosch123: you even wrote a patch I remember :P
19:05:40  <andythenorth> I am wondering if GS can add some part of what YACD does for gameplay, using an entirely different method
19:05:49  <Eddi|zuHause> how can something be "virtually on paper"?
19:05:51  <andythenorth> i.e. specify where cargo wants to go
19:06:04  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: anyway, I wrote NoGo so you could have town 'challenges'
19:06:06  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ok, maybe "visually"
19:06:10  <TrueBrain> so delivered cargo should be easy :P
19:06:13  <Terkhen> and town growth :D
19:06:17  <andythenorth> seems like a simple case
19:06:22  <andythenorth> town growth is over-rated imho
19:06:28  <frosch123> otoh, maybe "virtual" means just "on the other side of internet/world"
19:06:32  <andythenorth> you just end up with 10 bazillion boring passengers waiting
19:06:38  <TrueBrain> but too bad NewGRFs do too much of industry shit, so it cannot be applied as simple to industries :)
19:06:49  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I'm open to changing that :P
19:07:01  <TrueBrain> the idea I always liked is: change the whole economy of OpenTTD, and make everything demand based
19:07:06  <andythenorth> +lots
19:07:09  <TrueBrain> as in: a powerstation only accepts 100 coal
19:07:10  <andythenorth> YACD almost does it
19:07:12  <TrueBrain> after that, good luck
19:07:17  <frosch123> main problem is that scripts have no interrupts except for save
19:07:18  <andythenorth> YACD does it in reverse, and gets the same result
19:07:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe small towns should only produce tens of passengers, instead of thousands. then growth would be useful
19:07:33  <andythenorth> I think the TAI ones do
19:07:37  <TrueBrain> YACD cnotrols it on another level ;)
19:07:57  <andythenorth> I've defaulted to TAI, because default towns are broken <1930 and it's been filed under 'this is a feature not a bug'
19:08:26  <TrueBrain> anyway, if industries weren't so silly hardwared in newgrfs, a NoGo script could do YACD / my idea / what-ever :P
19:08:30  <TrueBrain> would be dreathful slow
19:08:34  <andythenorth> that is a downside :P
19:08:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: default towns appear unchanged before 1930. if it doesn't work, it's a newgrf's fault
19:09:28  <andythenorth> not really :P
19:09:47  <andythenorth> it's a consequence of allowing pre 1930 start for a game where ~1930 was the intended start date
19:09:49  <andythenorth> iirc
19:10:01  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: one of the major issues of CargoDist/YACD is already performance. a GS-based destinations would grind to a halt almost immediately
19:10:09  <andythenorth> the only newgrf I could blame for it is 'the newgrf I haven't written to fix it'
19:10:15  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: like I said: dreathful slow :P
19:10:21  <andythenorth> so we are where we are
19:10:27  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: although with my suggested model, the issue wouldn't be there
19:10:38  <TrueBrain> as it wouldn't care about routes
19:10:40  <andythenorth> that was...?
19:10:44  <TrueBrain> coalmines want to get ride of coal
19:10:48  <TrueBrain> powerstations only want N coal
19:10:54  <TrueBrain> depending how much power get transported to nearby cities
19:10:58  <frosch123> TrueBrain: just play "pbi"
19:11:01  <TrueBrain> so grow cities, more powerneed, more coal, ...
19:11:01  <frosch123> it's basically that
19:11:05  <TrueBrain> pbi?
19:11:11  <andythenorth> pikka basic industries
19:11:11  <frosch123> pikka basic industries
19:11:18  <TrueBrain> never played it, sry :P
19:11:27  <TrueBrain> in general I dont play NewGRFs; its silly :P
19:11:57  * andythenorth concurs
19:11:59  <andythenorth> silly newgrfs
19:12:30  <TrueBrain> I am not even kidding; I don't like NewGRFs :P
19:12:34  <TrueBrain> I just understand their need
19:13:00  <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder if we should rm newgrf
19:13:00  <TrueBrain> but in all cases, if pbi does it, it indeed means GS doesn't need to
19:13:19  <Terkhen> andythenorth: XMLgrf!!
19:13:31  <TrueBrain> XML is old. JSONGRF!
19:13:35  <andythenorth> ach
19:13:36  <andythenorth> done
19:13:40  <andythenorth> near enough
19:13:40  <TrueBrain> wait, that still makes no sense, does it?
19:13:42  <TrueBrain> hmm
19:14:00  <andythenorth> html_to_python_config_file_grf
19:14:31  <andythenorth>
19:14:53  <andythenorth> still, what might I do with GS?
19:15:01  <andythenorth> I am so bored of the game :P
19:15:13  <Terkhen> andythenorth: open a random one and play a game with it
19:15:21  <andythenorth> are there any?
19:15:23  <Terkhen> yup
19:15:39  <andythenorth> on bananas?
19:15:49  * andythenorth should read more docs :P
19:16:03  <TrueBrain> Terkhen: are they any good?
19:16:24  <Terkhen> no idea, I have not been playing lately either :P
19:16:40  <Terkhen> I'm waiting on feedback/translations for OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles before i play
19:16:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "remove newgrf" only if you have an automatic way to convert them to the new format
19:16:56  <andythenorth> what new format?
19:17:05  <andythenorth> I mean rm -> dev/null
19:17:08  <andythenorth> the whole shebang
19:17:15  <andythenorth> life would be simpler
19:17:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sure, life is simpler after suicide. doesn't mean it's a good idea
19:17:42  <FLHerne> But there'd not be enough industries! :-(
19:17:51  <Terkhen> andythenorth: you won't be able to abandon your NewGRF responsibilities so easily :)
19:17:59  * FLHerne likes vast complexity :D
19:18:12  <andythenorth> so I don't have to run a server to use GS?
19:18:28  <Nat_aS> I like vast complexity, but wading through menus is anoying
19:18:46  <Nat_aS> the UI is not designed for multible train and station sets sadly
19:18:48  <Nat_aS> :c
19:18:59  <Nat_aS> but there is no one set that has everything I want
19:19:00  <Nat_aS> :C
19:19:00  <FLHerne> How many industry types can a NewGRF specify, anyway? I know it's 32 cargoes...
19:19:22  <andythenorth> 64 iirc
19:19:36  <andythenorth>
19:19:46  <FLHerne> How many does FIRS have so far then?
19:19:52  <andythenorth> <64
19:19:57  <Nat_aS> not enough
19:19:59  <Nat_aS> :V
19:20:04  <andythenorth> 49
19:20:07  <FLHerne> Will it be 64 in future? :P
19:20:17  <andythenorth> nope
19:20:31  <Nat_aS> andy, have you considered allowing industry shortcuts in FIRS?
19:20:35  <andythenorth> ?
19:20:39  <FLHerne> Why? :P
19:20:45  <Nat_aS> IE, delivering ore directly to factories for less production
19:21:05  <andythenorth> what would be the benefit?
19:21:17  <Nat_aS> if you take it to a mill first, and then the metal to the factory, you get more, but you could also make the same chain with less links in a small map
19:21:27  <Nat_aS> Flexibility
19:21:30  * FLHerne suggests adding 'household waste'.
19:21:50  <Nat_aS> household waste might be an intresting idea
19:21:59  <Nat_aS> we already have scrap metal
19:22:07  <andythenorth> Nat_aS: the new shortcut industry type would just render the other type redundant
19:22:10  <Alberth> nah, not enough volume to transport and make money
19:22:14  <andythenorth> it's just adding more types for not much gain
19:22:21  <andythenorth> waste was dull, I removed it
19:22:32  <Nat_aS> the full route would give much higher payoff
19:22:44  <FLHerne> Houses -> [waste] -> Recycling centre -> [recyclables] -> Recycling plant -> [goods] -> Houses
19:22:44  <Nat_aS> the shortcut would just allow smaller maps to be less cluttered
19:22:57  <andythenorth> why?  There would be more industry types needed
19:23:10  <andythenorth> already it's hard/impossible to place a full set of FIRS industries on small maps
19:23:14  <FLHerne> Houses -> [waste] -> Power Plant (later on - biomass etc)
19:23:18  <Nat_aS> nonono, it would use the same industry types
19:23:22  <andythenorth> how?
19:23:22  <Nat_aS> you could just skip links.
19:23:36  <Alberth> sounds like a "tiny" economy for FIRS
19:23:53  <FLHerne> Houses -> [waste] -> Landfill Site
19:24:08  <andythenorth> waste is dull
19:24:19  <Nat_aS> okay, FIRS has industries in it right?
19:24:30  <FLHerne> But more cargoes/industries/complexity!
19:24:50  <Nat_aS> and some raw cargos have to go to more than one industry before becoming goods right
19:24:58  <andythenorth> yup
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19:25:33  <Nat_aS> this would allow you to skip links in the chain, you get less goods, and thus less money, but in a small map it means you don't have to have the full multi link chain built.
19:25:39  <andythenorth> so let's say you want to go ore->metal fab plant
19:25:44  <Nat_aS> yes
19:25:57  <Nat_aS> the ore would be smelted at the plant, but it would be less efficant
19:26:02  <andythenorth> so we have a spare input cargo slot there so it's possible
19:26:02  <Nat_aS> because it's not dedicated
19:26:06  <Nat_aS> yeah
19:26:10  <andythenorth> so what ratio of ore -> metal?
19:26:26  <Nat_aS> much less
19:26:27  <Nat_aS> maybe half
19:26:29  <andythenorth> at the steel mill you get 2t metal for 8t ore
19:26:42  <andythenorth> at the fab plant you get ?t goods for 8t ore
19:26:43  <Nat_aS> 1t for 8?
19:27:11  <Nat_aS> less than you would get if you made ore into metal and then metal into goods
19:27:35  <andythenorth> so 8t ore = 1t goods if delivered direct
19:27:48  <andythenorth> and 8t ore = 2t goods if routed via an intermediate
19:27:54  <andythenorth> so which are you going to choose?
19:27:54  <Nat_aS> something like that
19:28:12  <andythenorth> it's not a bad suggestion
19:28:15  <Nat_aS> I'd choose the intermediate, because more goods are produced, and i get paid for the intermediate steps
19:28:26  <Nat_aS> but if it's a small map, then I'd have to go with the skip.
19:28:34  <andythenorth> why on a small map?
19:28:45  * andythenorth would have expected that on a large map
19:28:49  <Nat_aS> because there is less room for industries on a small map
19:28:50  <Nat_aS> really?
19:29:19  <andythenorth> on a large map the intermediate might be 512 tiles away, and the ore mine / fab plant might be 10 tiles apart
19:30:00  <FLHerne> So? Huge mainlines are the answer to that one...
19:30:15  <Nat_aS> that also happens
19:30:35  <Nat_aS> it's a choice between convenience and efficacy.
19:30:35  <FLHerne> Mine is ~1500 tiles atm...
19:30:40  <andythenorth> building routes is boring
19:30:44  * andythenorth hates building routes
19:31:42  <Alberth> FLHerne: that's about 1200 tiles too long :)
19:32:12  <FLHerne> Why?
19:32:43  <FLHerne> It has various branches, too. I have most of a 512x2048 map covered now :D
19:34:15  <andythenorth> building routes is tedious, I mostly use ships
19:34:33  <andythenorth> 'demolish landscap, lay track, build signals, build depots'
19:34:48  <andythenorth> then all that clicking for stations and trains and orders and such
19:35:14  <Terkhen> you are lazy :P
19:35:37  <Nat_aS> I only play on maps where factories are near cities, and resources are clustered some distance away from cities.
19:35:45  <Nat_aS> IE, manmande maps
19:35:47  <Nat_aS> :P
19:35:51  <Nat_aS> so I build lines.
19:35:54  <Nat_aS> and feeders.
19:37:08  <Alberth> andythenorth: write an AI to do it for you, so you and your todler can watch :)
19:37:28  <andythenorth> I think somewhere, I have missed the point of the game ;)
19:38:40  <Alberth> wasting time and having fun by writing an AI falls outside the game goal?? :o
19:38:46  <andythenorth> no
19:38:53  <andythenorth> but complaining about making routes might :P
19:39:14  <andythenorth> one of the things I like about YACD is that I can build single-track railroad to most places, then run huge mixed trains
19:39:26  <andythenorth> and cargo just kind of goes where it needs to
19:39:33  * Alberth nods
19:39:42  <andythenorth> sadly YACD has gone away :(
19:40:04  <Alberth> more like it is stuck in the previous century :)
19:40:11  <andythenorth> YACD + auto-refit would have been an exceptional combination
19:40:26  <Alberth> indeed
19:40:43  <Alberth> do you know about ant colony optimization techniques?
19:40:45  <andythenorth> YACD + auto-refit + multi-cargo trucks / boats \o/
19:41:03  <andythenorth> Alberth: we found and read some links about them when pondering YACD
19:41:38  <andythenorth> is this the thing where we don't need to calculate the most optimal route in advance?
19:42:06  <Alberth> I think that is the step that needs to be made
19:42:25  <Alberth> do incremental improving of the routing
19:42:43  <Alberth> probably such that at infinity you have the optimal routing
19:42:57  <TrueBrain> yippie, I made 1.2M in Diablo 3! OWH YEAH! PARTY!
19:43:02  <TrueBrain> (derailment of conversation ++ )
19:43:28  <andythenorth> I came up with some idea of putting a vector / gradient on every link between every node for each cargo
19:43:33  <andythenorth> it was probably nuts
19:43:46  <Alberth> TrueBrain: it failed :)
19:43:50  <TrueBrain> dammit
19:43:56  <TrueBrain> I can kick andythenorth and tryr again? :D
19:43:58  * TrueBrain hugs andythenorth
19:44:00  <andythenorth> cargo would effectively move 'downhill'
19:44:02  <TrueBrain> I won't do that to you :P
19:44:12  * andythenorth would go and eat a sandwich if you did :P
19:45:21  <CIA-8> OpenTTD: frosch * r24337 /trunk/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: Allow filtering for multiple words (separated by whitespace resp. quoted) in the sign list, content- and NewGRF-guis.
19:45:23  <Alberth> that won't do, I think, with destinations both directions may be downhill for some packets
19:45:38  <andythenorth> true
19:46:29  <andythenorth> each link would have to store a vector per cargo for any given pair of source / destination
19:46:33  <andythenorth> which would be nuts
19:46:55  <andythenorth> and I can't think at all how to initially weight the vectors
19:47:35  <andythenorth> ach
19:47:45  <andythenorth> we should abandon all this complicated routing
19:47:52  <Alberth> only destination would be sufficient perhaps, I was thinking an quadtree with zones
19:47:55  <andythenorth> and steal the spot price economy from railroad tycoon 3 :P
19:48:17  <andythenorth> cargo at node A moves to whichever adjacent node has highest price :P
19:48:33  <andythenorth> until accepted somewhere
19:48:55  <andythenorth> price is set initially by distance
19:49:03  <andythenorth> then modulated by amounts delivered, and local demand
19:49:11  <Alberth> we cand also do a random walk of a few steps to decide where the cargo should go to
19:49:30  <Alberth> *can
19:49:59  <andythenorth> that would work how?
19:50:05  <Alberth> but then you stay within the existing network
19:50:35  <andythenorth> meh
19:50:40  <andythenorth> doesn't appeal :)
19:50:42  <Alberth> start at the source station, pick a random train to a random destination, repeat a few times
19:51:06  <Alberth> hmm, the destination may not want the cargo :(
19:51:20  <andythenorth> random walk of places that do?
19:51:25  <andythenorth> but then that's YACD :P
19:52:10  <Alberth> yeah, then you need routing information again beforehand :(
19:52:16  * andythenorth ponders spot price
19:52:22  <andythenorth> - 32 stored values per tile
19:52:36  <andythenorth> spot price at station A is the price at the station sign tile
19:52:40  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Is FISH going to have autorefit sometime?
19:52:45  <andythenorth> yes
19:52:56  <Alberth> s/tile/station/ ?
19:53:42  <andythenorth> the tile that holds the station sign ;)
19:53:57  <andythenorth> big stations might have a large price gradient across their tiles, so have to pick one tile
19:54:07  <andythenorth> - spot price distribution would work *nothing* like existing notions of cargo dist / YACD, this is an important note
19:54:17  <Alberth> ah, ok
19:54:28  <andythenorth> if there is a price gradient from A - D, passing through B
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19:54:35  <andythenorth> and you have a route A-B, but not A-D
19:54:44  <andythenorth> cargo would move along your route
19:55:02  <andythenorth> you may or may not get paid for it, depending on...stuff
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19:55:21  <andythenorth> ideally it would be dumped back into the public domain at B
19:55:27  <andythenorth> and you would be paid for the A-B leg
19:55:46  <Alberth> ware houses :)
19:55:54  <andythenorth> could be ;)
19:55:55  <andythenorth> the spot price determines demand; the cargo transport rates could be decoupled from that if desired
19:56:12  <andythenorth> that preserves the notional purity of ottd as a transport game :P
19:56:21  <andythenorth> we could just call it 'demand gradient'
19:56:24  <andythenorth> forget price
19:56:50  <andythenorth> hmm
19:56:52  <andythenorth> horrible idea
19:57:05  <andythenorth> newgrf warehouses could accept the cargo, then simply produce the same amount back out
19:57:40  <andythenorth> that would have some horribly interesting possibilities
19:57:43  <andythenorth> make them cheap to build
19:57:50  <andythenorth> move cargo A-B, get paid for it
19:58:00  <andythenorth> it never arrives at D where it is demanded :o
19:58:06  <andythenorth> interesting
19:58:15  <Alberth> we need industries with more input/output cargoes :)
19:58:19  <andythenorth> maybe
19:58:29  <andythenorth> that would be a limiting factor for this particular horrible idea :)
19:58:54  <Alberth> although introducing a warehouse concept in newgrf may be eaiser
19:58:59  <Alberth> *easier
19:59:24  <andythenorth> meanwhile, for a cargo source, how would output be split according to demand gradient?
19:59:27  <Alberth> hmm, have many 1tile industries close together ?  :)
19:59:41  <andythenorth> need tile acceptance / production, as per houses :P
19:59:44  <andythenorth> probably patch-able
19:59:57  <andythenorth> if I'm producing coal at A, and have equal demand at D and E, split the output?
20:00:30  <NGC3982> guys, you usually have answers to things like this
20:00:31  <andythenorth> and if ratio of demand D:E is 60:40 split accordingly?
20:00:38  <Alberth> sort of production percantage
20:00:51  <NGC3982> im looking for the psychological name for people experiencing "repeating" in nature
20:01:00  <NGC3982> as in always finding 11:11 or 15:15 on watches
20:01:33  <Alberth> deja vu?  (not entirely correct, I think)
20:02:16  <NGC3982> well, it might work
20:02:22  <Alberth> would be interesting if a GS could control percentage
20:02:23  <NGC3982> im not the kind of person who finds the numbers as above
20:02:32  <NGC3982> but i always seem to find "versions" of deja vu everywhere
20:05:49  <andythenorth> this is the RT3 demand map
20:05:57  <andythenorth> gradient runs red-green
20:06:12  <andythenorth> cargo will move by itself on the map if a sufficient gradient exists
20:06:22  <andythenorth> [this is not required for ottd] :P
20:06:37  <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: I love how you completely missed what the post was about :D
20:07:11  <Alberth> andythenorth: yeah, I had such a picture in mind too
20:07:40  <andythenorth> nobody would pay you to move cargo from Eureka to Garberville, even it it was present there on the map
20:07:57  <andythenorth> whereas cargo produced at Redding, and moved to Chico would pay
20:08:04  <andythenorth> even though the demand point is Sacramento
20:08:27  <andythenorth> RT3 takes account of topography, which we don't need
20:08:43  <andythenorth> e.g. mountains and rivers affect the demand gradients significantly
20:09:03  <andythenorth> rivers will level a demand gradient rapidly
20:09:13  <andythenorth> mountains provide a very steep demand gradient
20:09:31  <andythenorth> building a railroad across a mountain range with supply on one side and demand on the other is a winning tactic
20:09:39  <andythenorth> if you don't go bankrupt whilst building :P
20:10:13  *** guru3 [] has joined #openttd
20:10:30  <andythenorth> so....GS builds 32 signs on every tile, and stores cargo demand in it?
20:10:43  <andythenorth> then walks the entire map every so many ticks, adjusting gradients? :P
20:11:11  <Alberth> would be doable
20:11:29  <andythenorth> if we could expose the signs to stations...
20:11:48  <andythenorth>
20:11:52  <guru3> Right. Well. Rather annoyingly, oftc enabled ipv6, which meant my poor ipv6 enabled, but not connected, irc client was rather confused connecting for a while.
20:12:23  <andythenorth> and if GS could read industry delivered cargo var for previous month...
20:12:42  <LordAro> wrt mb Copyright thingys: man, he is one stubborn chap :) I think he needs reminding that it's a game, he's doing it for 'fun' and no one is making/losing money from it
20:12:43  <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: you mean that i didnt pick up on that you were trying to make it clear on the doÂŽs and donts when someone infringes on your copyright?
20:12:51  <Vadtec> aside from having a high rating and lots of time, are there other ways to increase the production of a given industry?
20:12:59  <LordAro> coincidence! :)
20:13:16  <andythenorth> yeah, so...we discussed copyright as much as we need to already? :P
20:13:22  <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: yes :D
20:13:29  <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: did some digging on EU laws, posted it; kinda nice
20:13:46  <LordAro> of course, i respect mb's decision about his licensing, but i do think it's all rather unreasonable...
20:14:02  <TrueBrain> LordAro: well, he did make a good attempt at making us lose money ... either in goods or real valuata
20:14:07  <TrueBrain> it becomes scary real by such actions
20:15:22  <Alberth> Vadtec: use  the manual industries newgrf?  cheat and get control of production values?
20:15:29  * andythenorth wonders how often a demand gradient would need updating?
20:15:46  <andythenorth> is monthly frequent enough?
20:16:02  <Vadtec> Alberth: i should have specific "playing by the rules"...ive used the cheat before, it got boring
20:16:05  <Alberth> guru3: ah, that's why I see my ipv6 address now :)
20:16:09  <XeryusTC> LordAro: mb lives in germany, the only country that i know of where the government actively protects your copyright
20:16:47  <XeryusTC> over there they file a lawsuit when the government takes notice that youÂŽre violating copyright, and not when the actual rights holder files it
20:16:52  <XeryusTC> or well, that is how it seems sometimes
20:16:55  <guru3> Alberth: Yeah, Jun 6 was turn on day - which is grand. Just my ISP hasn't done it yet. Any of them.
20:17:15  <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: EDEC allows anyone to file a lawsuit against violation of copyright
20:17:24  <TrueBrain> the DMCA, in constrast, only allows the owner to do so
20:17:33  <TrueBrain> DMCA is _much_ more strict in takedowns
20:17:42  <Alberth> guru3: mine did last year already, find a better one :)
20:18:32  <LordAro> ah yes, but you don't see plan3tmaker or others acting like that :) does anyone know why he is so protective of his 'intellectual property' ?
20:18:35  <guru3> Very limited choices where I am. :(
20:18:47  <TrueBrain> LordAro: god-complex? :D
20:19:00  <Alberth> andythenorth: depends what happens if you make a connection, does that mess up the gradient (and thus make my connection useless)?
20:19:11  <andythenorth> no
20:19:29  <andythenorth> the gradient would be modulated by demand at the destination primarily
20:19:30  <Alberth> LordAro: I fail to understand it, just as I fail to understand SAC et al
20:20:01  * andythenorth offers the marxist-leninist joke
20:20:08  <LordAro> i guess there will always be someone like that in a community :/
20:20:19  <LordAro> likewise for SAC, etc
20:20:21  <TrueBrain> its just sad: we offer the ability to reach all of our community, and he opts-out and only want to reach a small portion
20:20:36  <TrueBrain> but, it is his choice
20:20:47  <TrueBrain> as long as they refrain from pissing off our 3rd parties, meh :P
20:21:49  <andythenorth> it's ok, most of them have gone off somewhere 'safe and welcoming'
20:22:07  <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: tbh i know jack shit about european copyright law, i mostly know of DMCA because of youtube :P
20:22:14  <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: hehe
20:22:28  <TrueBrain> so you are just out for your 5 minutes of fame?
20:22:30  <TrueBrain> :P
20:22:44  <Alberth> andythenorth: then it depends on how often the demand at the destination changes
20:22:46  <andythenorth> Alberth: I would do this demand thing as a huge hack if possible
20:22:52  <XeryusTC> no, iÂŽm in it for 1.5h of mediocricy ;)
20:22:55  <andythenorth> - no touching cargo packets
20:22:59  <andythenorth> - no touching routing
20:23:05  <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: hehe :D
20:23:18  <XeryusTC> see both of my OTTD letÂŽs plays :P
20:23:22  <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: but you made me read about EU law, I am I kinda surprised :P
20:23:26  <frosch123> oh, the football thingie already started today, i was woried why it is so loud at the neighbours
20:23:31  * andythenorth wonders if it can be done entirely in newgrf and GS
20:23:40  <TrueBrain> we always follow DMCA rules, but as it turns out, we dont have to :P
20:23:42  <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: well, at least one of us is doing something productive then ;)
20:23:54  <TrueBrain> Dutch law suggests "5 days" to reply to takedowns
20:23:59  <Alberth> frosch123: you already missed yesterday evening :)  (no idea who played then)
20:24:06  <TrueBrain> as ISP, you can ignore any takedown for ever and ever
20:24:14  <frosch123> Alberth: sounds like i am lucky :)
20:24:23  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: actually, it started yesterday
20:24:30  <TrueBrain> Usenet services, under EU law, are completely legal
20:24:32  <andythenorth> hey look, a railroad tycoon industry chart :P
20:24:32  <andythenorth>
20:24:43  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: stop derailing :P
20:24:44  <andythenorth> they took the easy route away from quarries / open case mines too
20:24:45  <XeryusTC> does dutch law apply to OTTD?
20:24:47  <TrueBrain> I love the pun
20:24:50  <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: not anymore
20:25:00  <TrueBrain> French law does I guess
20:25:13  <TrueBrain> possibly German
20:25:15  <TrueBrain> it will be hard
20:25:17  <XeryusTC> is hosted in france nowadays?
20:25:22  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: well, german law was changed a few years back so that not only the upload is illegal, but download also for "obviously illegal" offers. where opinions differ what is "obvious"
20:25:24  <TrueBrain> yup; by a german company :P
20:25:43  <glx> TrueBrain: well OVH is originaly french ;)
20:25:53  <XeryusTC> now why would you do something as silly as that? :P
20:25:56  <andythenorth> hmm
20:25:59  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: EDEC says that a service that is a "mere conduit" of information, cannot be liable for any infringement
20:26:12  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and EDEC is EU law, so ..
20:26:12  <Alberth> andythenorth: you may be able to do cargo payments through subsidies, that would seem the only useful option to me
20:26:26  <andythenorth> you don't like the station profit cb?
20:26:35  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: but usenet does not only transmit the data, it also stores it
20:26:37  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: then I dont know german law, but in The Netherlands, EU laws always comes first, Dutc law second
20:26:49  <Alberth> andythenorth: how do you connect that to the gs?
20:26:53  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: caching is named explicit as allowed under the same entry
20:27:10  <TrueBrain> (and usenet does exactly that: cache the information)
20:27:16  <andythenorth> Alberth: not possible right now, except maybe via towns (which is low resolution)
20:27:22  <TinoDidriksen> EU law always comes first for any EU member. It's a requirement for membership.
20:27:28  <Alberth> :(
20:27:29  <TrueBrain> TinoDidriksen: false, sadly
20:27:35  <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: not true, Dutch law is to adhered by under EU rules, but Brussel forces member states to adapt the laws in some kind of way
20:27:39  <TrueBrain> there are a few exceptions :(
20:27:39  <Eddi|zuHause> caching is a "temporary storage without independent use", which does not apply here
20:27:54  <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: the dutch law literally says that EU laws always come first
20:28:00  <TrueBrain> (well, in a more general sense even)
20:28:09  <glx> TrueBrain: traceroute seems to imply it's in france
20:28:11  <TrueBrain> so it is not literally :P
20:28:13  <TrueBrain> glx: it is
20:28:14  <Alberth> andythenorth: so it would be a pax-only game then
20:28:20  <TrueBrain> I even know which DC, room, rack, location
20:28:22  <TrueBrain> :P
20:28:22  <glx> roubaix it seems
20:28:40  <TrueBrain> OVH service interface is _very_ good
20:28:49  <andythenorth> Alberth: it's probably not viable to do this idea well without patches.  I think the supply of cargo to stations would need to be patched.
20:28:49  <TrueBrain> they even show which servers (of all DCs they own) are on/off
20:28:51  <XeryusTC> TrueBrain goes to visit the server at least once a month to have a little party
20:28:52  <Alberth> TrueBrain: how many cms from the floor? :)
20:29:09  <TrueBrain> you see a full grid per DC, with green/red thingies of what is going on
20:29:12  <TrueBrain> it is really nice
20:29:24  <TrueBrain> once our server went offline, and they send a tech before I could report it
20:29:34  <Alberth> andythenorth: looks that way, unfortunately
20:29:38  <TrueBrain> it is by far the best ISP we have had for
20:29:49  <glx> I like their flyspray too
20:29:53  <TrueBrain> (in respect to tech-response)
20:29:59  <TrueBrain> glx: yup, and it is public
20:30:04  <Eddi|zuHause> german copyright law tends to be one of the strictest, when it comes to "exceptions"
20:30:06  <TrueBrain> any interuption in their network, you can read there
20:30:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it does not have the fuzzy concept of "fair use"
20:30:33  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: mostly as there is no such thing? :P
20:30:45  <XeryusTC> EU wants to get rid of fair use
20:31:06  <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: <- btw, to show you it is the law, to put EU law first :P
20:31:19  <TrueBrain> "Europese wetten gelden boven nationale wetten."
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20:31:39  <TrueBrain> "een Europese verordening is na inwerkingtreding meteen ook een Nederlandse wet."
20:31:52  <XeryusTC> seems i was incorrect then
20:31:57  <TrueBrain> only seems? :P
20:32:00  <TrueBrain> :D:D
20:32:01  <andythenorth> small lego fire truck, actual water:
20:32:23  <XeryusTC> i was always under the impression that EU law had to be adapted by a member state before it was in full effect
20:32:32  <TrueBrain> not in The Netherlands :P
20:32:35  <TrueBrain> it bites us a lot
20:32:40  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i don't think a "EU law comes first" law in germany would get past the constitutional court
20:33:00  <TrueBrain> I have no clue
20:33:01  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: EU laws always must be turned into a 'proper' national law
20:33:08  <TrueBrain> I only know we do, and that we are one of the few
20:33:23  <TrueBrain> for us it is easy: if the EU says it is so, it is so
20:33:29  <frosch123> yeah, i think there are also multiple lawsuits pending against germany
20:33:36  <Eddi|zuHause> although, there is a "federal law comes before country law"
20:33:40  <frosch123> for not turning eu law into national properly
20:34:11  <TrueBrain> but indeed TinoDidriksen is correct, they are suppose to make it their own law ASAP
20:34:22  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. a famous "law" is that the constitution of Hessen contains the death penalty, but this is overriden by the federal constitution that says there is no death penalty
20:34:23  <TrueBrain> but only the EC can force it
20:34:24  <XeryusTC> in the netherlands they tend to pass a law in the last 2 weeks before penalties get applied for not adapting laws in time :o
20:34:35  <FLHerne> I now have massive congestion in every form of transport :-( :D
20:34:42  * TrueBrain is happy
20:34:49  <TrueBrain> derailed #openttd successful
20:34:55  <TrueBrain> it annoyed me that they wer etalking so much about OpenTTD
20:34:59  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: lots of countries have such lawsuits pending. that is "common practice"
20:35:06  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: floor is yours again :P
20:35:09  <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: maybe you should visit some other channels
20:35:19  <glx> andythenorth: I killed a pump playing with water
20:35:25  <andythenorth> moi aussi
20:35:29  <TrueBrain> euh
20:35:31  <TrueBrain> that sounds dirty
20:35:35  <andythenorth> never quite comes out
20:36:03  <andythenorth> Alberth: I think it's worth thinking about demand some more
20:36:08  <andythenorth> as YACD is dead for now
20:36:19  <andythenorth> and other interesting stuff seems dead, like ports
20:36:27  <Eddi|zuHause> <XeryusTC> in the netherlands they tend to pass a law in the last 2 weeks before penalties get applied for not adapting laws in time :o <-- that is a typical way to silence the opposition
20:36:27  <andythenorth> and nobody gives a rats ass about roadtypes
20:36:29  <michi_cc> andythenorth: It's not dead, it's hibernating ;)
20:36:36  <andythenorth> yay \o/
20:36:55  <Eddi|zuHause> "we cannot discuss alternatives at this point, because then we would not make the deadline"
20:38:49  <XeryusTC> Eddi|zuHause: my naive mind prefers to think that they are all just slackers and dont want to get an EU fine :P
20:40:00  <Eddi|zuHause> XeryusTC: the end of this naivity was a major cause for the rise of the pirate party in germany
20:40:01  <andythenorth> is a bye enough for demand gradient?
20:40:08  <andythenorth> byte *
20:40:15  <andythenorth> probably ample
20:40:26  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: depends what you want to model
20:40:39  <andythenorth> arbitrary 'demand' amount per tile
20:40:44  <XeryusTC> Eddi|zuHause: actually, iÂŽm thinking of voting pirate party over here in the next elections, but they seem like a bunch of incompetent morons
20:40:52  <XeryusTC> they _really_ need to get some media training
20:41:04  * andythenorth wonders if demand can be stored per station rather than per tile
20:41:17  <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: it is because they ARE a bunch of incompetent morons :P
20:41:27  <FLHerne> Now my MGR coal trains have got stuck and blocked the suburban trains, which have queued across the fast lines, blocking a branch junction and causing a tailback through the wood station, obstructing the scrap, oil and timber trains, which have blocked everything else :o . That blocked all the level crossings, so all the trams have stopped as well... :-(
20:41:39  * FLHerne starts restructuring his network again
20:41:42  <andythenorth> FLHerne: just crash them all
20:41:45  <andythenorth> problem solved
20:41:52  <Eddi|zuHause> XeryusTC: they have gotten quite some attention over here because they won several regional elections (by "won" i mean "over the 5% barrier")
20:41:54  <andythenorth> we need the equivalent of lemmings 'nuke'
20:42:17  <Eddi|zuHause> XeryusTC: now they have some serious administrative problems, which they should better solve until the "real" election next year
20:42:25  <FLHerne> Autorefit is a whole new way to break everything, too :D
20:42:30  <Eddi|zuHause> or they might drop below 5% again
20:43:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "demand per station" is problematic as soon as you get overlapping areas
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20:43:51  <andythenorth> yup
20:43:55  <andythenorth> demand is not simple anyway :P
20:44:08  <Terkhen> good night
20:44:11  <FLHerne> Does transferring cargo: tram -> train -> road -> ship -> tram -> train -> tram count as too many steps? I just kept adding new bits, and now it's confusing :-(
20:44:22  <XeryusTC> Eddi|zuHause: over here they dont even seem to be able to agree on what the motto of the party is when interviewed
20:44:56  <Eddi|zuHause> XeryusTC: "something with copyright and direct democracy"
20:45:22  *** Zeknurn [] has joined #openttd
20:46:13  <andythenorth> work in progress:
20:46:35  <XeryusTC> Eddi|zuHause: the motto during the last election was šremix politicsš
20:47:22  <XeryusTC> which was horrible imo
20:47:49  <XeryusTC> and it was made even worse that everyone in the party was a neckbeard who didnt know how to talk
20:48:38  <Eddi|zuHause> the most famous motto over here was "Alles klarmachen zum Àndern" [which is a play on the pirate expression "klarmachen zum entern", when you start capturing a ship]
20:48:47  <Alberth> andythenorth: use 'price' as gradient unit?
20:48:48  <andythenorth> update:
20:49:23  <andythenorth> Alberth: makes sense, although I'm also happy to preserve a distinction between 'price' and 'cargo payment rate you earn for transporting'
20:49:28  <andythenorth> although my plan links them :P
20:49:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: one of the main problems with "demand" is industries that have custom behaviour, e.g. stockpile limits, conversion speed, etc.
20:49:49  <andythenorth> [shrug]
20:49:50  <andythenorth> those are bad industries :P
20:50:03  <frosch123> hmm, i assume they won :p
20:50:16  <Alberth> someone did I am sure :)
20:50:20  <NGC3982>
20:50:24  <NGC3982> from a proud swede.
20:50:44  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: then they lag 15 minutes :p
20:50:54  <andythenorth> 'provide a way for newgrf to modify demand' :(
20:50:59  <andythenorth> ^ sucks
20:51:17  <Alberth> yeah, doesn't sound newgrf-y
20:51:37  <andythenorth> actually, industries with stockpile limits just work
20:51:44  <Alberth> well, enough today, good night
20:51:49  <andythenorth> the cargo piles up at the station and demand plummets :P
20:51:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: newgrfs need a property or callback to influence the demand calculation, otherwise it can't work
20:52:11  <andythenorth> conversion speed is harder, can't figure that out
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20:52:35  <andythenorth> in that case, industry has accepted the cargo, so demand would continue
20:52:54  <andythenorth> ho, actually, what's the problem with that? :)
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20:53:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just imagine a FIRS smithy forge with a conversion factor of 6/8 and a steel mill with conversion factor of 8/8. naturally i'd expect most cargo to go to the steel mill
20:53:47  <andythenorth> why?
20:54:04  <andythenorth> I don't disagree, just wondering
20:54:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because it doesn't make sense that a 2 tile smithy-forge processes the same amount of cargo as a 10 tile steel mill
20:54:54  <andythenorth> blurs the line between newgrf and other stuff
20:55:12  <andythenorth> either industry newgrfs get full control of economy, or they have to not get that :P
20:55:28  <andythenorth> we decided they don't get that already
20:55:29  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no blur, if you set the demand-modificator consistently for all industries in the newgrf
20:55:38  <andythenorth> well, it's possible
20:56:07  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the same as the newgrf can decide for the appearance chance, but not where exactky the industry will be created
20:56:31  <andythenorth> cb to return a modifier to the demand calculation
20:56:42  <andythenorth> when production cb runs
20:56:59  <andythenorth> or just an increase / decrease
20:57:16  <andythenorth> make the demand calculation work similarly to production multiplier at primary industry?
20:57:22  <Eddi|zuHause> a property with an optional cb32
20:57:33  <Eddi|zuHause> when the cb is run is to be decided
20:57:39  <andythenorth> sounds sane
20:57:54  <andythenorth> starts to expand the scope of this idea, not sure if that's terrible or great
20:58:15  <andythenorth> why isn't setting demand the domain of GS?
20:58:36  <Eddi|zuHause> property defaults to the "acceptance ratio" (e.g. default houses 3/8 goods make a demand modifier of 3 for "old" GRFs)
20:58:46  <andythenorth> also sounds sane
20:58:54  <Eddi|zuHause> demand is summed over all tiles of the industry that  accept the cargo
20:59:01  <andythenorth> +1
20:59:06  <Eddi|zuHause> so "large" industries will by default generate larger demand
20:59:15  <andythenorth> I'll paste this into my 'spec'
20:59:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and a station sums all "demand modificators" in its radius
20:59:48  <Eddi|zuHause> to calculate the station demand
21:00:03  <Eddi|zuHause> which is cached for destination purposes
21:00:16  <andythenorth> now I defer to you ;)
21:00:22  <andythenorth> you're moving faster than my brain
21:00:48  <Eddi|zuHause> my brain moves way too fast to express my thoughts properly :p
21:01:06  <andythenorth> I think a limiting radius on demand is wise
21:01:17  <andythenorth> probably 255 tiles, for convenience of it being byte-sized
21:01:26  <Eddi|zuHause> what for?
21:01:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the acceptance radius is already limited by "station spread"
21:01:57  <Eddi|zuHause> why introduce more limits?
21:02:10  <andythenorth> so a station only demands what is in the catchment?
21:02:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and the size of the variable is a design decision that should be made WAAY later in the process
21:02:35  <andythenorth> accepted
21:02:48  <andythenorth> more interestingly - is your idea based on station catchments?
21:03:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i thought that was obvious
21:03:12  <andythenorth> it is now
21:04:01  <andythenorth> I can't think of anything wrong with it
21:04:08  <andythenorth> this rules out getting paid for partial routes
21:04:14  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, i tried to find a translation for "Einzugsbereich" and the words "catchment area" didn't appear...
21:04:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think paying for partial routes is bad for gameplay
21:04:50  <andythenorth> possibly
21:05:23  <andythenorth> how would you route cargo in this model?
21:05:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: imagine an industry on an island, you build a train line to the shore, and earn much more than when you complete the journey with a ship
21:05:59  <andythenorth> why much more?
21:06:17  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because the ship is slower, so the last leg produces a "loss"
21:07:19  <andythenorth> well I think my idea involves a fairly significant, probably impossible, rethink of payment
21:08:16  <andythenorth> if demand gradient is A-C, the train is A-B and the ship is B-C, payment for each leg depends on demand gradient for each leg in my model
21:08:18  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you would need a complicated scheme to make the payment for partial routes much less due to the "walking" distance. but then initially starting out with a passenger line will create huge losses, because you don't cover a large part of the map yet, but you'll get the passengers of such parts with extremely low payment
21:08:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: instead of the "nearby" passengers which pay the full price
21:09:26  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not sure how you translate "demand" into "payment"
21:09:43  <andythenorth> cargo constant rate * distance * variable factor for 'demand'
21:09:52  <andythenorth> maybe time as well :(
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21:10:40  <andythenorth> ach, I know it can be done from clean sheet of paper because it works trivially in RT3
21:10:46  <andythenorth> but that is a very different context
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21:11:05  <andythenorth> transplanting that model might fail :P
21:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: "You are walking me on the nerves" <- that's pretty much exactly what we say in german
21:11:34  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: oh, neat! :)
21:11:57  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: what is it in german?
21:12:14  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: "Du gehst mir auf die Nerven"
21:12:59  <Achilleshiel> wo sind die kakke am dampfen?
21:13:05  <NGC3982> cool
21:13:13  <NGC3982> "Du går mig på nerverna".
21:13:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Achilleshiel: totally different thing :p
21:13:17  <NGC3982> :)
21:13:41  <Achilleshiel> i know:P
21:14:16  <NGC3982> the swedish (and thus german) linguistic history is rather interesting
21:14:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Achilleshiel: besides, Kacke is singular, so "wo ist ..." </korinthenkacker>
21:14:56  <NGC3982> its interesting to see how the languages in northern europe melt together the longer back in history you get
21:15:06  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ok so in the model I am figuring out...cargo packets have no fixed destination
21:15:09  <Achilleshiel> Eddi|zuHause: my german is not that good,
21:15:19  <NGC3982> "kakke" could be used to describe poop in swedish.
21:15:28  <andythenorth> so the short PAX line would make money assuming acceptance at the terminating station
21:15:32  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: yes, that is what it means.
21:15:37  <Achilleshiel> lol
21:15:43  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: ah, really?
21:15:44  <NGC3982> haha
21:15:52  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: literally: "where is the shit steaming?"
21:15:56  <NGC3982> some southern swedes use "kack" for poop.
21:15:58  <NGC3982> ah, i see.
21:16:44  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: in the non-literal meaning it's something like "where is the party happening?"
21:16:52  <NGC3982> ok
21:17:02  <NGC3982> well, "shit" is well used around here for almost everything
21:17:09  <Achilleshiel> in the netherlands it is kak that stands for poop:P
21:17:48  <NGC3982> "det hÀr Àr skit" > "this is (really bad)". "det hÀr Àr skiten" > "this is awesome".
21:18:18  <NGC3982> and the only difference is that "shit" is changed to "the shit" (in literal translation).
21:18:31  <NGC3982> although, thats more like popular-swedish then actual-swedish.
21:19:03  <Achilleshiel> slang-swedish?
21:19:17  <NGC3982> yes, somewhat.
21:19:29  <NGC3982> our language is somewhat odd at the moment
21:19:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i would be imagining everything containing "shit" is slang in pretty much every language on this planet :p
21:19:54  <NGC3982> fredrik lindström (a popular linguistic/tv presenter) calls it "the new youtube swedish".
21:20:20  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: hehe, true.
21:21:06  <andythenorth> meh, my idea is mostly good, but requires leaving the current crappy transfer system in place :P
21:21:35  <NGC3982> i have noticed the young swedes are using a new internet based language as never before
21:21:46  <NGC3982> even people with very little relation to internet
21:21:51  <NGC3982> "lol", for instance
21:22:25  <Eddi|zuHause> there was quite a hype on "sms speak" a few years ago
21:22:52  <andythenorth> slang ~= language :P
21:23:00  <NGC3982> of course
21:23:54  <andythenorth> so if acceptance is 3/8, could that be per month?
21:24:03  <andythenorth> and delivering more than 3/8 causes demand to fall?
21:24:19  <andythenorth> not necessarily to zero, but to < 3/8
21:25:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Now it is driven! - Nu aer det kört! <-- in german you might say "Der Zug ist abgefahren" [the train has driven away]. or in english "that ship has sailed"
21:25:25  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: ah, neat.
21:25:34  <NGC3982> haha, a very transportational saying.
21:25:47  <NGC3982> "nu Àr det kört" is very, very well used
21:26:05  <NGC3982> from rural south to nortern same-people
21:26:23  <andythenorth> good night
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21:26:30  <NGC3982> Achilleshiel: nighty nighty!
21:26:54  <Achilleshiel> NGC3982: goodnight;)
21:27:04  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: another funky thing i notice with swedish is the use of double-words to emphasize something.
21:27:20  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: "hejhej" or "ajaj"
21:27:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Put your legs on your the back - LÀgga benen på ryggen. <-- here the closest german saying i find would be "Die FÌ0e in die Hand nehmen" [take your feet in the hands]
21:27:35  <NGC3982> oh
21:27:42  <NGC3982> "In the hands", as in "make it happend"?
21:28:01  <Eddi|zuHause> *FÌße
21:28:32  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: not really
21:30:20  <NGC3982> ah, i see
21:30:51  <NGC3982> i was thinking, since the swedish phrase "ta hand om det" means "take hands on it" (litteraly)
21:31:07  <NGC3982> literally
21:32:16  <frosch123> it's more like, take the tools with the hands and start working, but the tools are the feets and working is moving :)
21:32:54  <NGC3982> and "ta hand om det" means "fix it".
21:33:15  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: in german, "Hand anlegen" may mean very different things :p
21:33:32  <NGC3982> oh you
21:33:35  * NGC3982 giggles
21:33:51  <NGC3982> well, that's german for you
21:33:57  <NGC3982> making love like making cars
21:37:20  <NGC3982>
21:37:26  <NGC3982> what does those symbols mean?
21:37:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Give the iron! - Ge jÀrnet! <-- not entirely sure, but this may mean "Gib Gas" [as in accelerate the car] or "Gib Gummi" [as in accelerate so fast that you leave tire marks]
21:38:22  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: profit, little profit, loss or "too early to tell"
21:39:31  <Wolf01> 'night
21:39:36  *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
21:40:43  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: whereas "in die Eisen gehen" [go into the iron(s)] actually means "step on the brakes"
21:40:48  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: ah, i see
21:41:35  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: oh, "ge jÀrnet" i rarely used to encourage speed or stuff like that.
21:42:02  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: it's mostly used to motivate a good job
21:42:28  <NGC3982> as in "go our there and kick some ass!"
21:43:03  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: oh, then it doesn't quite have the same connotation as "Gib Gas" [which is usually used to yell at someone to go faster]
21:44:03  <NGC3982> ah, i see.
21:45:18  <Eddi|zuHause> "Gib Gummi" is a slightly more ironic way to say the same thing
21:47:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Pull to where the pepper grows! - Dra dit pepparn vÀxer! <-- !Geh wohin der Pfeffer wÀchst" is almost the same in german
21:48:27  <TrueBrain> lol @ mb. He says things that are completely new to me. Now we, as OpenTTD, have a higher responsibility (than people who don't mirror? I dunno), because people can upload stuff ...
21:48:53  <TrueBrain> isn't it said back in 1998 or 2002 (DMCA, EU variant) that you as website are NOT responsible for what your users upload?
21:48:55  <TrueBrain> lolz
21:48:58  * TrueBrain gets some popcorn
21:49:25  <TrueBrain> redefining the internet, one step at the time
21:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: you are not responsible for what you don't know, but once you are made aware of something, you have to react and take it down
21:49:45  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yup; in a REASONABLE timeframe :D
21:50:04  <TrueBrain> he seems to claim that his < 24h is reasonable for some reason ... I dunno what he is claiming, I lost him a while ago :P
21:50:50  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and he seems to use it as excuse he emailed the mirror-sites ... which under that argument have nothing to do with it
21:50:55  <TrueBrain> maybe you understand it?
21:51:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i have not read it yet
21:51:24  <TrueBrain> don't pain yourself over it then :D
21:51:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm not really in the mood to
21:51:37  <TrueBrain> I can imagine ;)
21:52:12  <TrueBrain> which brings us to a good point: DIABLO 3!
21:52:54  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: the hidden feature of the error 37 minigame?
21:53:04  <TrueBrain> I havent seen error 37 in a week
21:56:10  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: "It only ran out in the sand. - Det bara rann ut i sanden. <-- "Das ist im Sande verlaufen" works in german as well
21:56:30  <NGC3982> :)
21:57:05  <NGC3982> i guess most of them date back to the day when both languages were more ..intertwined.
21:57:34  <Eddi|zuHause> etymologically, that might have been derived from sand being on the shore, so what you made in the sand would eventually be washed away once the tide comes
22:04:27  <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: btw, i forgot to say this but it might help if you forward to info@ too, contact seems more general to me than info
22:05:38  <TrueBrain> it does?
22:05:44  <TrueBrain> I never emailed anyone at contact@
22:05:51  <TrueBrain> hmm
22:06:09  <frosch123> hmm, i am used to people holding placards into the camera at live events... but nowadays they are holding their notebooks or ipads showing some texts :o
22:06:39  <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: if you go there, I guess there are many many more address people might email; reality is you can just open up Contact page, and see which we suggest to email :P
22:06:45  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: they saw that in a pirate party conference? :
22:06:55  <frosch123> TrueBrain: we should have ten or more contact addresses, so the dev addresses move more down
22:07:05  <TrueBrain> frosch123: or just rmeove them :D
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22:07:09  <frosch123> how about, complains@, rants@, praising@
22:07:38  <Eddi|zuHause> "abuse@" seems to be somewhat standardised
22:08:03  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: we always have had an abuse@ for that reason
22:08:08  <TrueBrain> as we do noc@ and root@
22:08:18  <TrueBrain> but now we also document the existance of abuse@ :P
22:08:21  <frosch123> TrueBrain: it makes sense to have some credits on the site, and usually they would involve email
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22:09:03  <frosch123> what stands "noc@" for?
22:09:17  <frosch123> NOtiCe seems silly :)
22:09:26  <Xaroth> Network operating center
22:09:47  <frosch123> ah, i think in the 90's there was usually a webmaster@
22:09:57  <Xaroth> webmaster@ is for websites
22:10:01  <Xaroth> noc@ is for hosting companies
22:10:15  <TrueBrain> when I contact other ISPs, I always try noc@ first :P
22:10:21  <Xaroth> same
22:10:24  <TrueBrain> so out of habbit, has it too :P
22:10:43  <frosch123> btw. what are you doing here? there has been no commit to opendune in 2012 :p
22:11:05  <TrueBrain> and the relation between those 2 sentences is ... ? :)
22:11:06  <Xaroth> don't tempt me to make a silly commit to opendune
22:11:21  <TrueBrain> and please, don't give him ideas .. he is a terrible (C) coder
22:11:31  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i read xaroth's signature on the forums
22:11:41  <TrueBrain> frosch123: ah :D
22:11:44  <TrueBrain> context is everything
22:11:47  <frosch123> i would not have recognised him otherwise
22:12:01  <Xaroth> \o/
22:12:05  <Xaroth> I lurk much
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22:26:40  <glx> <TrueBrain> and please, don't give him ideas .. he is a terrible (C) coder <-- I agree :)
22:33:20  <TrueBrain> its funny because its true
22:33:44  <Xaroth> no love for me :(
22:34:07  <Xaroth> and yes, I suck at C
22:34:13  <Xaroth> i'll prefer Python for now
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22:55:23  <Eddi|zuHause> something is buggy on the forums... it says "new posts in this forum", but when i go into it, there is no thread with a new post
22:57:03  <frosch123> also look at the stickies and annoucements :p
22:57:34  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the announcements never counted before...
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22:58:01  <frosch123> maybe they never got posts :p
22:58:26  <frosch123> also you have to distinguish global annoucments, and those specific to a forum section
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23:05:03  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably it
23:05:13  <Eddi|zuHause> but they are not marked differently
23:06:04  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. the TT-meet announcement has also new posts, but it doesn't show as "new posts in this forum"
23:06:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but both are shown in the announcement section next to each other, without visual difference
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