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00:04:49 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 00:06:34 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 01:05:28 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-050-156.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 01:10:14 *** Firartix [~artixds@2a01:e35:2ee1:7050:762f:68ff:fea5:ba0] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:11:49 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:9d3e:2bce:f834:fda2] has quit [Quit: bye] 01:18:27 *** Hazzard [~7b7b6b11@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:21:13 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A5DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:42:02 *** telanus [~Barney_Er@196-210-208-84.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 01:45:06 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 01:49:01 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.58.14.12.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd 01:51:25 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:54:28 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:55:10 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 02:00:47 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 02:04:40 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:05:44 *** KnogleAFK [~knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 02:05:44 *** Knogle [~knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:45:01 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.252.118] has joined #openttd 03:20:16 *** kais58_ [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 03:22:08 *** kais58 [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:06:42 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 04:14:25 *** kkimlabs__ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 04:14:47 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:26:33 *** kkimlabs__ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:27:03 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 04:28:16 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 04:47:07 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5929.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 04:47:22 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC677FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 04:51:39 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 04:52:40 *** kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:19:54 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.252.118] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:31:08 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:42:15 *** kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 05:50:24 <Vadtec> for multi-headed trains: does OpenTTD take into account that putting an engine at the back of a train helps with hill climbing and acceleration more than having two engines at the head of the train, as in real life? 05:50:55 <Kylie> bed :) 05:54:23 *** roadt_ [~roadt@60.168.95.166] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:57:09 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 06:02:31 *** roadt_ [~roadt@60.168.95.166] has joined #openttd 06:34:00 <planetmaker> Vadtec: it does not account for that. Only important things are tractive effort, power, weight, air resistance, curve radius (if applicable), 06:34:41 <planetmaker> but please explain how having an engine in a particular place in a train matters in RL :-) 06:57:47 *** telanus [~Barney_Er@196-210-208-84.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has left #openttd [QUIT :Leaving.] 06:58:04 *** telanus [~Barney_Er@196-210-208-84.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 07:13:32 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.58.14.12.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:14:04 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-115-173.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:24:13 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 07:24:22 *** berinam [~berinam@194.225.239.142] has joined #openttd 07:24:27 *** berinam [~berinam@194.225.239.142] has left #openttd [] 07:32:48 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-115-173.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 07:38:49 *** Nat_AFK is now known as Nat_aS 07:40:58 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d083c70.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 07:48:39 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:50:31 <Terkhen> good morning 07:54:22 <andythenorth> hola 07:55:24 <Nat_aS> >air resistance 07:55:30 <Nat_aS> this game models AIR RESISTANCE? 07:56:15 <andythenorth> somewhat yes 07:56:29 <andythenorth> or is that ttdp only? 07:56:37 * andythenorth forgets 07:56:53 <Nat_aS> how? 07:57:44 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains#Coefficient_of_air_drag_.2820.29 07:58:28 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd 07:58:31 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 07:59:57 <Terkhen> if by "models air resistance" you mean "it has an arbitrary (speed ^2) reduction called air resistance" then you are right :) 08:00:08 <Nat_aS> lol 08:00:10 <Terkhen> good morning Alberth 08:00:14 <Nat_aS> that's what I was assuming 08:00:24 <Alberth> moin Terkhen 08:00:37 <Nat_aS> but it sounds funny to say it as "air resistance" 08:00:58 <Terkhen> well, it works somewhat like air resistance 08:00:58 <Alberth> call it 'drag' :) 08:01:06 <Terkhen> true, the official name is air drag :P 08:01:07 <Nat_aS> it can be altered though? 08:01:10 <Nat_aS> for Vactrains? 08:01:17 <Terkhen> IIRC vactrains set it to zero 08:01:24 <Nat_aS> Hmm 08:01:35 <Nat_aS> if there is a realistic acceleration patch 08:01:41 <Nat_aS> what about realistic deceleration? 08:02:02 <Nat_aS> buy trains with better breaks or they will crash 08:02:08 <Nat_aS> also, a reason to use cabooses. 08:02:36 <Terkhen> well, the purpose of the "realistic" acceleration is to make vehicle behavior different on slopes 08:02:48 <Nat_aS> actualy, do some trains in a set have lower drag stats than others? like some trains are more streamlined? 08:03:02 <Terkhen> for example, before realistic acceleration, a huge HEQS truck would climb slopes as fast as a small truck 08:03:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is possible 08:03:20 <Terkhen> so, the gameplay purpose of realistic acceleration is to differenciate vehicles a bit 08:03:32 <Terkhen> I don't see any valid gameplay purpose for realistic decceleration besides realism 08:03:33 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-115-173.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:03:35 <Nat_aS> Trains not breaking magically, or trains being aerodynamic? 08:04:06 <Terkhen> Nat_aS: trains can define how aerodinamic they are 08:04:13 <Terkhen> if they don't, a "default" value will be used for them 08:04:20 <Nat_aS> I just think trains crashing would be lulzy, and it would add another layer of depth, as well as give a real use for cabooses. 08:04:35 <Terkhen> I don't know of any sets besides vactrains that change the air drag 08:05:02 <Terkhen> I think that would be a micromanaging task that only serves a purpose created specifically for that task :P 08:05:26 <Nat_aS> Express trains with overrides for PAX cars could have a 30% reduction in drag or something 08:05:29 <Nat_aS> that would be neat. 08:06:35 <Terkhen> yes, that's currently doable 08:06:37 <Nat_aS> >This property allows to modify the period in ticks after which cargo carried by the vehicle is aged. By default, cargo is aged every 185 ticks. A value of 0 disables ageing of cargo. This property can be modified via callback 36. 08:06:44 <Nat_aS> You can make reefer cars? 08:06:46 <Nat_aS> that's awesome. 08:06:48 <Terkhen> yes 08:07:01 <Nat_aS> man, serves me for only using tropic set 08:07:05 <Terkhen> check OpenGFX+ Trains and OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles (nightly) refrigerated vehicles 08:07:28 <Terkhen> I don't know if there are other sets using the cargo aging property 08:08:14 <Nat_aS> I like a lot of the cool engines in Tropic set, but it lacks advanced features, and leaves many niches empty, 08:08:18 <Nat_aS> also no Monolev trains 08:10:52 <andythenorth> I can only think of braking being interesting in the context of runaways / disasters 08:11:02 <andythenorth> and I don't think it would be interesting for very long :P 08:11:17 <Nat_aS> well consider that if a signal changes suddenly, a train might not stop in time 08:11:18 <Nat_aS> and crash 08:11:25 <Nat_aS> even with it's breaks working normaly 08:11:37 <Nat_aS> because trains take a while to slow down, even in ideal situations. 08:12:38 <andythenorth> it would only be amusing for the first couple of crashes 08:12:40 <Terkhen> in real life signals don't change suddenly either 08:12:45 <Terkhen> unless something "wrong" happened 08:12:52 <Nat_aS> yes 08:13:07 <Nat_aS> but in OTTD signals are bianary, and trains stop on a dime. 08:13:16 <andythenorth> after it happens a couple of times, most players would probably disable it using the inevitable advanced setting :P 08:13:26 <Nat_aS> lol 08:13:45 <andythenorth> in Railroad Tycoon, cabooses reduce breakdowns and train robberies 08:13:51 <Terkhen> signals change randomly and trains can stop instantly -> no random crashes 08:14:15 <Nat_aS> I like how in OTTD, airplanes are the most dangerous form of travel 08:14:19 <Terkhen> signals don't usually change suddenly and trains take time to stop but they know when will they stop beforehand -> almost no random crashes 08:14:29 <Nat_aS> in fact the only form of travel with any measurable risk. 08:14:32 <Terkhen> different ways of doing it, same result, and the first one is simpler :) 08:14:50 <Nat_aS> as opposed to real life where it's the safest form of travel per person per mile. 08:15:25 <Terkhen> the simplest way of implementing random train crashes would be a "% chance of train driver ignoring a signal" 08:15:43 <Nat_aS> yes 08:15:50 <Nat_aS> train robberies would also be a cool thing 08:15:54 <andythenorth> iirc planes are the most dangerous form of transport per person per unit time spent 08:15:56 <Nat_aS> too bad no newgrf disasters. 08:16:06 <Nat_aS> andythenorth, no. not at all 08:16:10 <Nat_aS> CARS are dangerous 08:16:17 <andythenorth> are they? 08:16:19 <Nat_aS> Airplanes are not. 08:16:30 <Nat_aS> Cars are the most dangerous, airplanes are the safest. 08:16:35 <andythenorth> really? 08:16:37 <Terkhen> but given that one of the most asked feature request we had was "disable aircraft crashes", we are understandably wary of implementing any kind of disasters 08:16:37 <Nat_aS> yes 08:16:46 <Nat_aS> lol yes 08:17:16 * andythenorth wonders if wikipedia has stats 08:17:16 <Terkhen> besides that, I personally don't find them fun so I always play without them and without aircraft crashes :P 08:18:09 <Nat_aS> .05 deaths per billion kilometers 08:18:18 <Nat_aS> Car is 3.1 08:18:29 <Nat_aS> walking is 54.2 08:19:19 <andythenorth> I know the passenger miles case 08:19:26 <andythenorth> but that's not the same as passenger-units-time 08:19:31 <andythenorth> due to s = d/t 08:19:35 <Nat_aS> Oh, per billion journeys it's higher. 08:19:49 <Nat_aS> but safer than bicycle 08:20:03 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 08:20:12 <andythenorth> ok, so it's equivalent to rail 08:20:32 <andythenorth> and per journey it's relatively unsafe 08:23:27 *** Firartix [~artixds@2a01:e35:2ee1:7050:762f:68ff:fea5:ba0] has joined #openttd 08:23:56 <Nat_aS> it's still absurd that airplanes can crash, but trains and cars can't. 08:25:09 <andythenorth> [shrug] 08:25:31 <Terkhen> disable aircraft crashes then, that's what I do 08:26:00 * andythenorth wonders what the point of openttd is, and how to make it better 08:26:18 <Nat_aS> the point is to play with trains 08:26:31 <Nat_aS> and make a big huge countryside with cool trains 08:26:44 <Nat_aS> also trucks and airplanes and boats 08:26:51 <Nat_aS> because trains can't go everywhere 08:28:20 <Nat_aS> also industries and cities 08:28:24 <Nat_aS> because trains need cargo 08:35:38 *** Hazzard [~72f8ab20@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 08:43:45 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 08:44:14 *** Hazzard_ [~413144a9@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 08:45:10 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A025.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:48:12 *** Hazzard [~72f8ab20@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:48:43 *** Nat_aS is now known as Nat_AFK 09:01:37 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has joined #openttd 09:01:41 <Alberth> moin 09:01:42 <Wolf01> hello 09:02:28 <Terkhen> hi Wolf01 09:06:03 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 09:09:58 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 09:25:16 *** meggawatts [~meggawatt@adsl-99-141-128-36.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd 09:26:14 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 09:26:16 *** meggawatts [~meggawatt@adsl-99-141-128-36.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 09:37:42 *** Hazzard_ [~413144a9@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:54:30 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:04:02 *** telanus1 [~Barney_Er@196-210-208-84.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 10:05:13 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 10:07:38 *** telanus [~Barney_Er@196-210-208-84.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:12:45 *** Hazzard_ [~72f8ab20@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 10:17:28 *** perk11 [~perk11@46.242.11.118] has joined #openttd 10:17:41 *** Hazzard_ is now known as Hazzard 10:22:35 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host217-43-26-179.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 10:22:48 <LordAro> morning all 10:22:57 <LordAro> it's morning for me, anyway ;P 10:26:59 <Eddi|zuHause> good noon then :) 10:27:46 <Hazzard> good after noon :) 10:34:15 <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically, "noon" is at 13:00 CEST 10:35:07 <Eddi|zuHause> (that is in 17 minutes) 10:35:23 <Terkhen> hi LordAro 10:54:43 *** telanus1 [~Barney_Er@196-210-208-84.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:58:43 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f5164.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:58:49 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.12.255] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:59:00 <Alberth> hai frosch 10:59:12 <frosch123> afternoon albert :) 11:00:59 <Terkhen> hi frosch123 11:02:50 <frosch123> hola terkhen :) 11:04:13 <Hazzard> hey guys 11:04:24 *** KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.12.255] has joined #openttd 11:21:38 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-098-092.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 11:40:03 <perk11> hey, I'm trying to start a dedicated server, but ignores all grf I put into [newgrf] section, and after I stop server this section is clean 11:40:13 <perk11> and it doesn't show any errors about newgrfs 11:40:17 <perk11> what can it be? 11:41:04 <frosch123> if it removes the stuff from the cfg, then it must be invalid syntax or incorrect paths 11:41:31 <frosch123> anyway, easiest way to start a game is to create a savegame with a gui client, transfer that to the server 11:41:37 <frosch123> and then let the server run that game 11:42:15 <perk11> I transfere openttd.cfg instead, but trying this 11:42:28 <Terkhen> from windows to linux? 11:42:32 <perk11> yep 11:42:37 <frosch123> then it might be a / \ issue 11:42:41 <perk11> ohh 11:42:43 <Terkhen> yes 11:42:51 <perk11> always forgeting 11:42:53 <perk11> thanks 11:44:20 <perk11> it worked 11:44:26 <frosch123> :) 12:02:12 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-152-250-188.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 12:29:40 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 12:45:00 *** telanus [~Barney_Er@196-210-208-84.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 12:45:37 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:e8c4:9d09:3c1:712c] has joined #openttd 12:45:40 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so... who revived richk67? 13:06:17 * Alberth wondered about that too 13:07:46 <Alberth> but I am guessing the email system did 13:10:28 <frosch123> whining about airports? 13:12:47 <Terkhen> nope, about code purists 13:12:48 <Terkhen> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1024883#p1024883 13:23:42 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 13:26:14 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-098-092.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 13:31:30 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-098-092.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 13:32:07 *** Hazzard [~72f8ab20@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:32:15 <NGC3982> im using 1.2.0 on a normal w7 machine 13:32:42 <NGC3982> when i create single player games, i no longer see the "creating map" window when generating a new map. 13:33:42 *** telanus1 [~Barney_Er@196-210-208-84.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 13:33:51 <NGC3982> it simply freezes, and the map starts after a few seconds. 13:34:08 <NGC3982> i notice this doesnt happen on all the other computers i have, and all of them have severly less computer power. 13:34:23 <Terkhen> does that happen in 1.2.1 too? 13:34:35 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that depends on whether you compiled with thread support 13:34:42 <Terkhen> and maybe the window appears and dissapears too quickly :P 13:36:32 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: compile? 13:37:02 <NGC3982> Terkhen: i dont think so. that usually just make the map start right away. 13:37:21 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: thread support, as in installed it on a ..>1 core cpu? 13:37:21 <NGC3982> :E 13:37:44 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: no. 13:38:05 *** telanus [~Barney_Er@196-210-208-84.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:38:11 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: if you did not compile yourself, and took the binary from the main website, then this does not apply to you 13:40:10 <NGC3982> ah, i see. 13:40:23 <NGC3982> yes, i just installed a complete 64bit version of 1.2.0 13:40:30 <NGC3982> and did nothing special with it 13:41:16 <Alberth> I think you should be glad, it stopped wasting CPU cycles on showing it is working for you 13:41:40 <Alberth> like you don't know when you press 'generate game' :p 13:42:05 <NGC3982> haha ;) 13:42:16 <NGC3982> well, of course not a big of a deal 14:05:24 *** KnogleAFK [~knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:05:51 *** Knogle [~knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 14:06:33 <NGC3982> ah 14:06:41 <NGC3982> i have found my favourite setup 14:07:08 <NGC3982> ECS+FIRS+UKRS(2) anno 1832, 128x128, lots of elevation. 14:07:56 <Eddi|zuHause> ++ 14:08:02 <Eddi|zuHause> err 14:08:26 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: ECS and FIRS cannot be combined 14:10:05 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 14:11:03 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.188.213] has joined #openttd 14:13:36 <NGC3982> oh, sorry, ECS 14:13:40 <NGC3982> i was looking at the trainset name 14:16:42 <NGC3982> right now, im using the urks2, urks2+, ecs agricultural+basic+chemical 14:16:43 <NGC3982> <3. 14:16:52 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.173.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:38:56 *** FlyingFoXy [~quassel@sanktwendel.weh.rwth-aachen.de] has joined #openttd 14:40:55 *** tparker_ [~tparker@2600:3c03::1d:4242] has joined #openttd 14:40:56 *** confound_ [~hdp@glaive.weftsoar.net] has joined #openttd 14:41:06 *** mikegrb_ [~michael@thegrebs.com] has joined #openttd 14:41:20 *** Netsplit synthon.oftc.net <-> graviton.oftc.net quits: confound, kba_, CIA-1, FlyingFoX, tparker, welshdragon, mikegrb 14:41:20 *** kbadk [kristian@89.186.169.103] has joined #openttd 14:41:41 *** mikegrb_ is now known as mikegrb 14:42:18 *** CIA-8 [~CIA@cia.atheme.org] has joined #openttd 15:07:29 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1A025.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:15:04 *** tparker_ is now known as tparker 16:14:40 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.252.118] has joined #openttd 16:29:25 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d083c70.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us] 16:40:54 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-86-81.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 16:40:57 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 16:42:48 <Vadtec> planetmaker: ping 16:43:02 <Terkhen> pong 16:43:17 <Wolf01> interceptor 16:44:27 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:44:31 <andythenorth> bonsoir 16:44:40 <Wolf01> hi andy 16:45:40 <Terkhen> hello andythenorth 16:45:49 <andythenorth> did I miss anything? 16:46:19 <Alberth> mostly a network split 16:46:23 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-89-176-205-166.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:46:40 <Terkhen> train crashes, slash issues, impossible NewGRF combinations and a game of ping pong 16:46:57 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-14-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:48:07 <Vadtec> planetmaker: to answer you, having an engine at the back of a train IRL helps to keep slack out of the cars 16:48:08 <Vadtec> planetmaker: this allows a train to go around corners and up and down hills more quickly because the engines arent fighting the trains wanting to speed up and slow down compared to the engines 16:48:08 <Vadtec> planetmaker: its not that putting an engine at the rear does something magical to make the train faster 16:48:08 <Vadtec> planetmaker: its that it helps keep the train in a more controlable state which reduces the strain on the engines 16:48:38 <Vadtec> meh....typos 16:48:45 <Vadtec> i haz a few 16:48:54 <Alberth> use a pastebin, and post the url :) 16:49:22 <Alberth> or send a PM :) 16:50:30 <Vadtec> sorry about that, didnt mean to paste it all at once, i was answering a question he asked me last night 16:51:11 <Alberth> oh, I was more referring to the ability to fix typos before posting :) 16:51:19 <Vadtec> oh :P 16:52:09 <andythenorth> Vadtec: DPUs also save air / make braking more responsive 16:52:21 <andythenorth> in addition to the other points you made ;) 16:52:36 <Vadtec> andythenorth: true, i failed to mention that 16:54:13 <andythenorth> they probably help prevent stringlining the cars I guess 16:54:48 <Vadtec> im not familiar with the term "stringlining" 16:54:49 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-28-21.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 16:55:05 <andythenorth> on curves 16:55:08 <andythenorth> I'll find an image ;) 16:57:56 <Vadtec> are you referring to the tendency of the cars to lean to the outside of the curve at high speeds, especially when the track isnt banked? 16:58:25 <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derailment#Stringlining 16:58:30 <andythenorth> can't find a good image :P 16:59:12 <Vadtec> ah, ok, now i know what you are referencing 16:59:36 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-90-155.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:59:38 <Vadtec> and yes, it does help prevent that, because there is much less slack to allow the cars to whip around and derail 16:59:50 <Vadtec> though the best solution is to slow down :P 17:00:51 <Vadtec> i was just curious last night if OpenTTD accounted for engines at the rear or not 17:01:47 *** mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-112-67.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd 17:02:28 <Terkhen> position is only taken into account for weight in slopes, IIRC power from all vehicles is considered to be at the leading vehicle 17:02:49 <andythenorth> ottd trains don't have to worry about losing their air 17:03:08 <Terkhen> hmm... I have time to code today but I don't feel like it 17:03:19 <andythenorth> Terkhen: not every day is a coding day 17:03:33 <andythenorth> some days are procrastinating days 17:03:37 <andythenorth> or talking nonsense days 17:03:55 *** DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-28-21.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:04:06 <Terkhen> yeah, I have one of the nonsense kind 17:04:18 <andythenorth> today is a "how could openttd be better" kind of day] 17:04:29 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 17:04:41 <Terkhen> add yacd and extended heightmaps 17:05:07 <Terkhen> also, FISH and HEQS with proper autorefit support :P 17:05:19 <Vadtec> oh well, it was just a curious question, other than the astetics (sp?) of it, i now know it doesnt help performance :P 17:05:44 * andythenorth has been finding games boring 17:05:47 <Terkhen> Vadtec: it doesn't hurt it either, so you can still use it for the aesthetics :) 17:05:53 <Terkhen> andythenorth: code a goal script 17:05:57 <andythenorth> maybe 17:06:07 <andythenorth> I'm in anti-goal mood right now :) 17:06:48 <Terkhen> play a different game, one in which you can just destroy stuff 17:06:49 <Terkhen> :P 17:07:41 <andythenorth> I have been thinking about telic and paratelic states :P 17:07:41 <andythenorth> http://www.trans4mind.com/transformation/transform4.2.htm 17:07:50 <andythenorth> mostly wrt work, but also the game 17:08:35 <andythenorth> in summary: telic = goal orientated; paratelic = playful 17:09:01 *** Nat_AFK is now known as Nat_aS 17:09:02 <frosch123> "if (c != 0) continue else break;" <- i cannot remember ever having written a line of code with so many reserved words in a row 17:09:07 <Terkhen> why are those opposites? 17:09:10 <andythenorth> people switch fluidly between the states 17:09:18 <Terkhen> Nat_aS: could you please turn off the AFK change? 17:09:38 <Nat_aS> why? 17:09:51 <andythenorth> Nat_aS: you only need to do afk/brb/biab etc if you're in the middle of a conversation with someone 17:10:01 <andythenorth> if you have someone awaiting your answer, it's polite 17:10:05 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-89-176-205-166.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 17:10:07 <andythenorth> otherwise it verges on spam ;) 17:10:25 <Nat_aS> I understand the rule in the co-op channel, but most IRC comunities, this is the norm. 17:10:50 <Alberth> nope 17:10:57 <Terkhen> we usually just say "brb" or "afk" in the chat if we are in the middle of a conversation, otherwise no warning is needed 17:11:00 <Nat_aS> no, I'm pretty sure it is 17:11:09 <Alberth> not here 17:11:11 <Nat_aS> having a shitty connection and parting joining a lot is much more spammy 17:11:13 <Nat_aS> I said most. 17:11:40 <andythenorth> nobody argued you were wrong about most 17:11:43 <Nat_aS> but sure, I'll change it. 17:11:43 <andythenorth> ;) 17:11:58 <Nat_aS> Alberth did 17:12:17 <Terkhen> Nat_aS: I agree, those are way more annoying... they also get a request and, in time, a kick or tempban 17:12:18 <Alberth> in my community channels the norm is to not do it 17:12:20 <andythenorth> time motivation of paratelic: Wish to prolong 17:12:29 <andythenorth> time motivation of telic: Wish to complete 17:12:38 <Nat_aS> well I changed it 17:12:41 <Alberth> thanks 17:12:43 <andythenorth> \o/ 17:12:44 <Terkhen> Nat_aS: thank you :) 17:13:13 <Terkhen> andythenorth: civilization fixes that with a "Just one more turn" popup after you win (or lose) a game 17:13:25 <Terkhen> in OpenTTD... it is implied that you want to continue :P 17:14:53 <frosch123> i think civ does not ask you that question if you lose by extermination 17:15:23 <Terkhen> probably not :P 17:16:06 <andythenorth> default TTD was very addictive, but not because I was trying to win the 'meh' goals 17:16:21 <andythenorth> it's constant small challenges that have no purpose other than the immediate 17:16:27 <andythenorth> 'get enough money to build a tunnel' 17:16:30 <andythenorth> 'fix this junction' 17:16:34 <andythenorth> 'start a ship route' 17:16:46 <andythenorth> 'omg, how to upgrade all trains to monorail' 17:16:47 <andythenorth> etc 17:17:19 <Nat_aS> MUST CONNECT EVERY INDUSTRY 17:17:22 <andythenorth> also I mostly only played 100 years 17:17:34 <glx> the last one is easy, skip monorail and wait for maglev :) 17:17:40 <Nat_aS> it dosn't help you need like a dozen industries just to get a good flow of goods 17:17:51 <Nat_aS> hey, CRAZY IDEA 17:17:56 <Nat_aS> for an industry replacement set 17:18:13 <Nat_aS> what if, you could send ore to steel mills, OR directly to factories 17:18:14 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5153E8CC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 17:18:31 <Nat_aS> if you send it to the mill, it makes metal, which will make even more goods if then sent to the factory 17:18:44 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5153E8CC.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 17:18:48 <Nat_aS> if you skip the mill and send the ore to the factory, it makes goods, but less of them 17:19:07 <andythenorth> code it 17:19:11 <Terkhen> that can be done, yup 17:19:27 <Terkhen> NewGRFs allow all kind of crazy stuff 17:19:36 <andythenorth> railroad tycoon 3 was also insanely addictive, but completely challenge based 17:20:10 <andythenorth> and after completing a challenge, I almost never played it again 17:20:16 <andythenorth> and I never played sandbox mode 17:20:32 <andythenorth> maybe I should start playing Dwarf Fortress 17:20:42 <Nat_aS> no challenge in DF 17:20:47 <Nat_aS> you just play untill you lose 17:20:53 <andythenorth> sounds great 17:21:00 <Nat_aS> and then you play again to see how long you can go without losing once more 17:21:05 <Nat_aS> because 'losing is fun' 17:21:10 <andythenorth> play until you lose <- probably the best simulation of real life so far 17:21:26 <Nat_aS> lol 17:21:47 <Nat_aS> survival mode 17:21:57 <Nat_aS> OTTD dosn't have that though 17:22:02 <Nat_aS> the game is only hard at the begining 17:22:11 <andythenorth> so my guess is that I would like an openttd that mixes telic and paratelic behaviour 17:22:19 <Nat_aS> once you have a few profitable routes, money becomes irrelevant. 17:22:28 <andythenorth> i.e. some imposed goals, and some activities that have no purpose other than being playful 17:22:31 <Nat_aS> it becomes imposible to lose if you keep things efficant. 17:22:31 <Terkhen> nice, "we" are being "rescued" 17:22:42 <andythenorth> from what? 17:22:48 <andythenorth> oh, I see 17:22:51 <andythenorth> economic meltdown :P 17:23:02 <andythenorth> Terkhen see, real life is like Dwarf Fortress :P 17:23:11 <Nat_aS> inflation can make the game harder, but not by much 17:23:27 <andythenorth> inflation is not the solution 17:23:29 <Nat_aS> Problem is, not having money is unfun in OTTD 17:23:44 <andythenorth> inflation isn't harder, it's impossible after a certain point 17:23:50 <Terkhen> http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/09/us-eurozone-idUSBRE8530RL20120609 17:24:02 <Nat_aS> because most of the time it means waiting 17:24:31 <Nat_aS> man, it pisses me off that americans are complaining about the economy still 17:24:38 <Nat_aS> we are just fine, look at europe 17:25:08 <Nat_aS> it's just tea partiers exploiting declinism to gain political power 17:25:12 <Nat_aS> and ruin america 17:27:17 <Terkhen> it's disgraceful that our president is not even going to make a public appearance 17:28:45 <Terkhen> and don't get me started about all the corrupt politicians, retirement worth millions for bankers that have crashed banks and so on 17:28:47 <Terkhen> meh 17:30:38 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:31:08 <Wolf01> Terkhen: sounds like the shit is all the same in the world 17:31:45 <Terkhen> Wolf01: I can't tell how deep is ours in comparison with other places because I have only lived in spain... I can only say that it is quite deep 17:32:16 <andythenorth> it is relatively deep afaict 17:32:45 <andythenorth> although for comparison, when I left school, it was in a place with 25% male unemployment, and the highest per-capita murder rate in the country 17:33:44 <Wolf01> we might reach the 100% of politician murder rate in about a year if the system would continue this way 17:33:58 <andythenorth> meh 17:34:14 <Terkhen> andythenorth: we have a nation-wide 25% unemployment rate 17:34:20 <andythenorth> I know :( 17:34:33 <andythenorth> I employ a spanish graduate here in the UK 17:34:44 <Terkhen> which IIRC gets to 40% for the 20 to 30 age interval 17:35:04 <Terkhen> your graduate and me are really lucky just to have a job, most of my friends are just "waiting" 17:36:05 <Wolf01> we have a lot ov job instead, but nobody want those jobs because everybody now wants graduated jobs 17:36:18 <Wolf01> s/ov/of/ 17:36:39 <CIA-8> OpenTTD: translators * r24336 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt latvian.txt polish.txt swedish.txt): 17:36:39 <CIA-8> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:36:39 <CIA-8> OpenTTD: hungarian - 7 changes by IPG 17:36:39 <CIA-8> OpenTTD: latvian - 13 changes by Parastais 17:36:39 <CIA-8> OpenTTD: polish - 7 changes by wojteks86 17:36:40 <CIA-8> OpenTTD: swedish - 6 changes by Joel_A 17:38:14 <andythenorth> in principle, Europe should be fine in the medium term 17:38:35 <andythenorth> we have insanely good physical and intellectual infrastructure, with strong civic society 17:39:06 <andythenorth> borrowing to support lifestyles may look to be somewhat of a mistake in retrospect though :P 17:39:18 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.252.118] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:40:32 <andythenorth> a relative decline in living standards is going to be a bitter thing for many people 17:40:49 <andythenorth> but unless we go nuts and talk ourselves into civil unrest - or war - life will go on 17:41:03 <Terkhen> it's not only about living standards... the spanish goverment has been cutting money mostly to public health, education... 17:41:41 <andythenorth> hmm 17:42:02 <Wolf01> same here, so they had more money to purchase about 400 more "blue cars" 17:42:16 * andythenorth has mostly been living in a bubble in this recession, in a city mostly unaffected by the economy 17:42:17 <Terkhen> Wolf01: yes, I can relate :) 17:42:40 <Terkhen> official cars, advisors selected by finger that are paid handsomely and so on... no cuts there 17:43:05 <andythenorth> power will do what power does 17:44:06 <andythenorth> the danger of these arrogant elites is that the public mood turns to support populist extremists 17:44:24 <andythenorth> on the left or right 17:44:36 <andythenorth> and then we sleepwalk back into 1939 or such 17:44:44 <Terkhen> yeah 17:46:31 <andythenorth> if we avoid that, the rest will come out ok in the wash 17:47:31 <andythenorth> in the UK at least, it's really positive to have a much lower emphasis on money and material posessions 17:47:40 <andythenorth> conspicuous consumption is out of favour 17:47:59 <Terkhen> yes, everything will get better in time 17:48:05 <andythenorth> which is good, because it's like candy floss: fun for the first few bites, then sickening 17:48:22 <andythenorth> are Spain's unemployed graduates doing startups? 17:48:30 <Terkhen> until next time they can do this 17:50:35 <Terkhen> andythenorth: sure, the ones who can get the money 17:51:02 <andythenorth> don't need a lot of money do do startup 17:51:23 <andythenorth> my mum paid my rent for 6 months 17:51:29 <andythenorth> I bought a computer on a credit card 17:51:54 <andythenorth> we got server space from one of the other founder's dads 17:52:10 <andythenorth> recessions are a good time to do startup 17:52:28 <andythenorth> at least, for internet stuff 17:52:33 <andythenorth> tech that needs manufacturing less so 17:52:41 <andythenorth> and stuff that needs R+D even less so 17:53:20 <Terkhen> that can work if your parents have money to spare, IIRC they mentioned that we have about half a million families in which neither of the parents is able to find a job 17:53:34 <Terkhen> so yes, the ones who have money can try a startup 17:53:46 <andythenorth> and the rest - how do they make rent? 17:54:25 <Terkhen> when the unemployment money and their savings run out... they don't 17:54:50 <andythenorth> yeah, that's not going to end brilliantly :| 17:55:12 <Terkhen> IIRC we had about 150 families losing their homes each day 17:55:17 <Terkhen> :P 17:56:08 <Terkhen> anyways, we'll have to see how this ends 17:56:57 * andythenorth wonders what happened here: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhuq55TSxu1qzg45so1_1280.jpg 17:58:09 <andythenorth> hey look! aqueducts :) http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhp3d3DeLe1qzg45so1_1280.jpg 17:58:37 <Terkhen> I agree, time for a topic change :) 17:58:43 <Terkhen> lately I have been travelling on train a lot 17:59:01 <Terkhen> whenever I take one I think about the forgotten spain train set 17:59:37 <andythenorth> how do we make this in ottd? 17:59:37 <andythenorth> http://consumeconsume.com/post/3765432988 17:59:37 <andythenorth> or is that what SAC is doing? :) 18:00:37 * andythenorth ponders goals 18:02:57 * andythenorth ponders a trip to tehachapi http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg4nkcquZs1qzg45so1_1280.jpg 18:04:25 <andythenorth> this tumblr is very addictive http://consumeconsume.com 18:09:52 <NGC3982> andythenorth: neat picture 18:10:38 <andythenorth> I am on page 45 of 88 :P 18:10:46 <andythenorth> been reading that blog since yesterday :P 18:12:43 <NGC3982> :D 18:15:48 <andythenorth> if I could come up with some interesting game goals, I might learn GS 18:15:54 <andythenorth> squirrel looked brain dead simple 18:16:04 <andythenorth> and I have installed an interpreter locally :P 18:18:56 * andythenorth ponders something horrible 18:20:01 <andythenorth> I need an economy newgrf that modifies (FIRS) cargo payment rates (custom profit calculation cb) 18:20:36 <andythenorth> modification would be based on a spot-price per town 18:20:43 <andythenorth> spot prices would be set by a GS 18:21:00 <Nat_aS> so some towns would be better or worse economicly? 18:21:21 <andythenorth> you would have an incentive to deliver certain cargos to x not y 18:21:24 <andythenorth> or vice versa 18:21:30 <Nat_aS> maybe one would borrow tons of money and pay extra for goods, but then there creditors call them out, and they become bancrupt. 18:22:55 <andythenorth> wouldn't affect town ;) 18:23:00 <Nat_aS> oh 18:23:01 <andythenorth> just the rate your earn for transport 18:31:18 *** Netsplit reticulum.oftc.net <-> synthon.oftc.net quits: tparker, Nat_aS, DabuYu, Eddi|zuHause, @Belugas, @orudge, George, jonty-comp, roadt_, mikegrb, (+22 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 18:32:03 *** Netsplit over, joins: jonty-comp, Born_Acorn, George, @orudge, EyeMWing, Vadtec, lugo, namad8, @Belugas, kkimlabs (+13 more) 18:32:18 *** Netsplit over, joins: +tokai|noir, kbadk, mikegrb, FlyingFoXy, KouDy, valhallasw, Eddi|zuHause, Achilleshiel, adamkex_ 18:32:23 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.252.118] has joined #openttd 18:33:02 <Kylie> wow 18:33:06 <Kylie> netsplit 18:33:21 <Nat_aS> hows that for spam 18:33:48 <Alberth> sue oftc.net :p 18:34:11 * Kylie blocks the suit 18:36:53 * NGC3982 wants to buy a new suit. 18:37:52 * Kylie gives NGC3982 money to buy a new suit. 18:38:32 <andythenorth> maybe that's the solution to 'too much money' in ottd? 18:38:35 <andythenorth> 'suit charge' 18:38:42 *** mode/#openttd [+v orudge] by ChanServ 18:38:42 *** ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only 18:38:42 *** mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ 18:38:45 *** mode/#openttd [+v Alberth] by ChanServ 18:39:34 <andythenorth> is 'too much money' solved by infrastructure maintenance? 18:44:49 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:44:50 *** bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.252.118] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:45:23 <frosch123> lol, why would anyone put "openttd" into the tags of a bananas item? 18:46:49 <Nat_aS> because you don't want it to be confused with TTDpatch 18:51:15 <andythenorth> can GS manipulate your company finances? 18:53:06 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:57:07 <Eddi|zuHause> someone asked recently what a "ferry boat wagon" was, see this: http://www.drehscheibe-foren.de/foren/read.php?17,5938204 18:57:32 <andythenorth> can I add it with GS? :P 18:57:42 * andythenorth will stop being silly 18:57:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess not :p 18:57:46 <andythenorth> so where are the GS docs? 18:57:53 <andythenorth> forum holds no clues 18:57:59 <Eddi|zuHause> next to the AI docs? 18:58:13 <NGC3982> "Berichte und Fragen zur Vergangenheit der Eisenbahn" 18:58:16 <NGC3982> tihi, german. 18:58:20 * NGC3982 giggles. 18:58:51 <andythenorth> lo, here we go: http://nogo.openttd.org/api/1.2.1/ 18:59:45 * andythenorth ponders a blinkenlights GS 18:59:59 <andythenorth> it just builds tiles in patterns, and overbuilds them to produce flashing effect :P 19:00:07 <andythenorth> also, christmas greetings nogo :P 19:00:48 <TrueBrain> omg, what have I done! 19:00:49 <TrueBrain> :P 19:01:09 <andythenorth> what storage does GS have? 19:02:04 <Alberth> compared to newgrf? infinite 19:02:55 <andythenorth> trying to figure out if GS can do 'delivered cargo' challenges 19:02:56 <Eddi|zuHause> are NewGRFs turing-complete? 19:03:16 <andythenorth> 'It's 1965: deliver 20,000t of coal to Frininghamton by 1997' 19:03:24 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no 19:03:29 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: NoGo links are on our Links page :P 19:03:35 <TrueBrain> (it wasn't 3 minutes ago, but it is now! :P) 19:03:42 <andythenorth> :) 19:03:45 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: actually that's the central point about them 19:03:56 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: now all you need is virtual goods, and you can build some nice noGos! 19:03:59 * TrueBrain looks at frosch123 :P 19:04:17 <andythenorth> I need virtual goods for cargo challenges? 19:04:23 <TrueBrain> yes! 19:04:25 <andythenorth> why! 19:04:26 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well, during initialization they might be, as you can jump backwards with action 7/0 19:04:28 <TrueBrain> power supplying! 19:04:30 <Eddi|zuHause> 9 19:04:31 <andythenorth> meh 19:04:41 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I am just pulling frosch123's leg 19:04:46 <andythenorth> :) 19:04:46 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: who cares about initialisation? 19:04:46 <TrueBrain> he once startd that feature :) 19:04:55 <andythenorth> I am thinking 'simple' for GS 19:05:00 <frosch123> TrueBrain: it's on my list 19:05:04 <andythenorth> we have so much inter-dependent crap already 19:05:14 <frosch123> virtually on paper only 50cm away for me 19:05:22 <frosch123> the list of things to do in the past 3 weeks :p 19:05:23 <TrueBrain> frosch123: you even wrote a patch I remember :P 19:05:40 <andythenorth> I am wondering if GS can add some part of what YACD does for gameplay, using an entirely different method 19:05:49 <Eddi|zuHause> how can something be "virtually on paper"? 19:05:51 <andythenorth> i.e. specify where cargo wants to go 19:06:04 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: anyway, I wrote NoGo so you could have town 'challenges' 19:06:06 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ok, maybe "visually" 19:06:10 <TrueBrain> so delivered cargo should be easy :P 19:06:13 <Terkhen> and town growth :D 19:06:17 <andythenorth> seems like a simple case 19:06:22 <andythenorth> town growth is over-rated imho 19:06:28 <frosch123> otoh, maybe "virtual" means just "on the other side of internet/world" 19:06:32 <andythenorth> you just end up with 10 bazillion boring passengers waiting 19:06:38 <TrueBrain> but too bad NewGRFs do too much of industry shit, so it cannot be applied as simple to industries :) 19:06:49 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I'm open to changing that :P 19:07:01 <TrueBrain> the idea I always liked is: change the whole economy of OpenTTD, and make everything demand based 19:07:06 <andythenorth> +lots 19:07:09 <TrueBrain> as in: a powerstation only accepts 100 coal 19:07:10 <andythenorth> YACD almost does it 19:07:12 <TrueBrain> after that, good luck 19:07:17 <frosch123> main problem is that scripts have no interrupts except for save 19:07:18 <andythenorth> YACD does it in reverse, and gets the same result 19:07:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe small towns should only produce tens of passengers, instead of thousands. then growth would be useful 19:07:33 <andythenorth> I think the TAI ones do 19:07:37 <TrueBrain> YACD cnotrols it on another level ;) 19:07:57 <andythenorth> I've defaulted to TAI, because default towns are broken <1930 and it's been filed under 'this is a feature not a bug' 19:08:26 <TrueBrain> anyway, if industries weren't so silly hardwared in newgrfs, a NoGo script could do YACD / my idea / what-ever :P 19:08:30 <TrueBrain> would be dreathful slow 19:08:34 <andythenorth> that is a downside :P 19:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: default towns appear unchanged before 1930. if it doesn't work, it's a newgrf's fault 19:09:28 <andythenorth> not really :P 19:09:47 <andythenorth> it's a consequence of allowing pre 1930 start for a game where ~1930 was the intended start date 19:09:49 <andythenorth> iirc 19:10:01 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: one of the major issues of CargoDist/YACD is already performance. a GS-based destinations would grind to a halt almost immediately 19:10:09 <andythenorth> the only newgrf I could blame for it is 'the newgrf I haven't written to fix it' 19:10:15 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: like I said: dreathful slow :P 19:10:21 <andythenorth> so we are where we are 19:10:27 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: although with my suggested model, the issue wouldn't be there 19:10:38 <TrueBrain> as it wouldn't care about routes 19:10:40 <andythenorth> that was...? 19:10:44 <TrueBrain> coalmines want to get ride of coal 19:10:48 <TrueBrain> powerstations only want N coal 19:10:54 <TrueBrain> depending how much power get transported to nearby cities 19:10:58 <frosch123> TrueBrain: just play "pbi" 19:11:01 <TrueBrain> so grow cities, more powerneed, more coal, ... 19:11:01 <frosch123> it's basically that 19:11:05 <TrueBrain> pbi? 19:11:11 <andythenorth> pikka basic industries 19:11:11 <frosch123> pikka basic industries 19:11:18 <TrueBrain> never played it, sry :P 19:11:27 <TrueBrain> in general I dont play NewGRFs; its silly :P 19:11:57 * andythenorth concurs 19:11:59 <andythenorth> silly newgrfs 19:12:30 <TrueBrain> I am not even kidding; I don't like NewGRFs :P 19:12:34 <TrueBrain> I just understand their need 19:13:00 <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder if we should rm newgrf 19:13:00 <TrueBrain> but in all cases, if pbi does it, it indeed means GS doesn't need to 19:13:19 <Terkhen> andythenorth: XMLgrf!! 19:13:31 <TrueBrain> XML is old. JSONGRF! 19:13:35 <andythenorth> ach 19:13:36 <andythenorth> done 19:13:40 <andythenorth> near enough 19:13:40 <TrueBrain> wait, that still makes no sense, does it? 19:13:42 <TrueBrain> hmm 19:14:00 <andythenorth> html_to_python_config_file_grf 19:14:31 <andythenorth> http://www.tt-foundry.com/sets/BANDIT/render_trucks_to_config_file 19:14:53 <andythenorth> still, what might I do with GS? 19:15:01 <andythenorth> I am so bored of the game :P 19:15:13 <Terkhen> andythenorth: open a random one and play a game with it 19:15:21 <andythenorth> are there any? 19:15:23 <Terkhen> yup 19:15:39 <andythenorth> on bananas? 19:15:49 * andythenorth should read more docs :P 19:16:03 <TrueBrain> Terkhen: are they any good? 19:16:24 <Terkhen> no idea, I have not been playing lately either :P 19:16:40 <Terkhen> I'm waiting on feedback/translations for OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles before i play 19:16:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "remove newgrf" only if you have an automatic way to convert them to the new format 19:16:56 <andythenorth> what new format? 19:17:05 <andythenorth> I mean rm -> dev/null 19:17:08 <andythenorth> the whole shebang 19:17:15 <andythenorth> life would be simpler 19:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sure, life is simpler after suicide. doesn't mean it's a good idea 19:17:42 <FLHerne> But there'd not be enough industries! :-( 19:17:51 <Terkhen> andythenorth: you won't be able to abandon your NewGRF responsibilities so easily :) 19:17:59 * FLHerne likes vast complexity :D 19:18:12 <andythenorth> so I don't have to run a server to use GS? 19:18:28 <Nat_aS> I like vast complexity, but wading through menus is anoying 19:18:46 <Nat_aS> the UI is not designed for multible train and station sets sadly 19:18:48 <Nat_aS> :c 19:18:59 <Nat_aS> but there is no one set that has everything I want 19:19:00 <Nat_aS> :C 19:19:00 <FLHerne> How many industry types can a NewGRF specify, anyway? I know it's 32 cargoes... 19:19:22 <andythenorth> 64 iirc 19:19:36 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Industries 19:19:46 <FLHerne> How many does FIRS have so far then? 19:19:52 <andythenorth> <64 19:19:57 <Nat_aS> not enough 19:19:59 <Nat_aS> :V 19:20:04 <andythenorth> 49 http://www.tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/economies 19:20:07 <FLHerne> Will it be 64 in future? :P 19:20:17 <andythenorth> nope 19:20:31 <Nat_aS> andy, have you considered allowing industry shortcuts in FIRS? 19:20:35 <andythenorth> ? 19:20:39 <FLHerne> Why? :P 19:20:45 <Nat_aS> IE, delivering ore directly to factories for less production 19:21:05 <andythenorth> what would be the benefit? 19:21:17 <Nat_aS> if you take it to a mill first, and then the metal to the factory, you get more, but you could also make the same chain with less links in a small map 19:21:27 <Nat_aS> Flexibility 19:21:30 * FLHerne suggests adding 'household waste'. 19:21:50 <Nat_aS> household waste might be an intresting idea 19:21:59 <Nat_aS> we already have scrap metal 19:22:07 <andythenorth> Nat_aS: the new shortcut industry type would just render the other type redundant 19:22:10 <Alberth> nah, not enough volume to transport and make money 19:22:14 <andythenorth> it's just adding more types for not much gain 19:22:21 <andythenorth> waste was dull, I removed it 19:22:32 <Nat_aS> the full route would give much higher payoff 19:22:44 <FLHerne> Houses -> [waste] -> Recycling centre -> [recyclables] -> Recycling plant -> [goods] -> Houses 19:22:44 <Nat_aS> the shortcut would just allow smaller maps to be less cluttered 19:22:57 <andythenorth> why? There would be more industry types needed 19:23:10 <andythenorth> already it's hard/impossible to place a full set of FIRS industries on small maps 19:23:14 <FLHerne> Houses -> [waste] -> Power Plant (later on - biomass etc) 19:23:18 <Nat_aS> nonono, it would use the same industry types 19:23:22 <andythenorth> how? 19:23:22 <Nat_aS> you could just skip links. 19:23:36 <Alberth> sounds like a "tiny" economy for FIRS 19:23:53 <FLHerne> Houses -> [waste] -> Landfill Site 19:24:08 <andythenorth> waste is dull 19:24:19 <Nat_aS> okay, FIRS has industries in it right? 19:24:30 <FLHerne> But more cargoes/industries/complexity! 19:24:50 <Nat_aS> and some raw cargos have to go to more than one industry before becoming goods right 19:24:58 <andythenorth> yup 19:25:16 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-62-7.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 19:25:33 <Nat_aS> this would allow you to skip links in the chain, you get less goods, and thus less money, but in a small map it means you don't have to have the full multi link chain built. 19:25:39 <andythenorth> so let's say you want to go ore->metal fab plant 19:25:44 <Nat_aS> yes 19:25:57 <Nat_aS> the ore would be smelted at the plant, but it would be less efficant 19:26:02 <andythenorth> so we have a spare input cargo slot there so it's possible 19:26:02 <Nat_aS> because it's not dedicated 19:26:06 <Nat_aS> yeah 19:26:10 <andythenorth> so what ratio of ore -> metal? 19:26:26 <Nat_aS> much less 19:26:27 <Nat_aS> maybe half 19:26:29 <andythenorth> at the steel mill you get 2t metal for 8t ore 19:26:42 <andythenorth> at the fab plant you get ?t goods for 8t ore 19:26:43 <Nat_aS> 1t for 8? 19:27:11 <Nat_aS> less than you would get if you made ore into metal and then metal into goods 19:27:35 <andythenorth> so 8t ore = 1t goods if delivered direct 19:27:48 <andythenorth> and 8t ore = 2t goods if routed via an intermediate 19:27:54 <andythenorth> so which are you going to choose? 19:27:54 <Nat_aS> something like that 19:28:12 <andythenorth> it's not a bad suggestion 19:28:15 <Nat_aS> I'd choose the intermediate, because more goods are produced, and i get paid for the intermediate steps 19:28:26 <Nat_aS> but if it's a small map, then I'd have to go with the skip. 19:28:34 <andythenorth> why on a small map? 19:28:45 * andythenorth would have expected that on a large map 19:28:49 <Nat_aS> because there is less room for industries on a small map 19:28:50 <Nat_aS> really? 19:29:19 <andythenorth> on a large map the intermediate might be 512 tiles away, and the ore mine / fab plant might be 10 tiles apart 19:30:00 <FLHerne> So? Huge mainlines are the answer to that one... 19:30:15 <Nat_aS> that also happens 19:30:35 <Nat_aS> it's a choice between convenience and efficacy. 19:30:35 <FLHerne> Mine is ~1500 tiles atm... 19:30:40 <andythenorth> building routes is boring 19:30:44 * andythenorth hates building routes 19:31:42 <Alberth> FLHerne: that's about 1200 tiles too long :) 19:32:12 <FLHerne> Why? 19:32:43 <FLHerne> It has various branches, too. I have most of a 512x2048 map covered now :D 19:34:15 <andythenorth> building routes is tedious, I mostly use ships 19:34:33 <andythenorth> 'demolish landscap, lay track, build signals, build depots' 19:34:48 <andythenorth> then all that clicking for stations and trains and orders and such 19:35:14 <Terkhen> you are lazy :P 19:35:37 <Nat_aS> I only play on maps where factories are near cities, and resources are clustered some distance away from cities. 19:35:45 <Nat_aS> IE, manmande maps 19:35:47 <Nat_aS> :P 19:35:51 <Nat_aS> so I build lines. 19:35:54 <Nat_aS> and feeders. 19:37:08 <Alberth> andythenorth: write an AI to do it for you, so you and your todler can watch :) 19:37:28 <andythenorth> I think somewhere, I have missed the point of the game ;) 19:38:40 <Alberth> wasting time and having fun by writing an AI falls outside the game goal?? :o 19:38:46 <andythenorth> no 19:38:53 <andythenorth> but complaining about making routes might :P 19:39:14 <andythenorth> one of the things I like about YACD is that I can build single-track railroad to most places, then run huge mixed trains 19:39:26 <andythenorth> and cargo just kind of goes where it needs to 19:39:33 * Alberth nods 19:39:42 <andythenorth> sadly YACD has gone away :( 19:40:04 <Alberth> more like it is stuck in the previous century :) 19:40:11 <andythenorth> YACD + auto-refit would have been an exceptional combination 19:40:26 <Alberth> indeed 19:40:43 <Alberth> do you know about ant colony optimization techniques? 19:40:45 <andythenorth> YACD + auto-refit + multi-cargo trucks / boats \o/ 19:41:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: we found and read some links about them when pondering YACD 19:41:38 <andythenorth> is this the thing where we don't need to calculate the most optimal route in advance? 19:42:06 <Alberth> I think that is the step that needs to be made 19:42:25 <Alberth> do incremental improving of the routing 19:42:43 <Alberth> probably such that at infinity you have the optimal routing 19:42:57 <TrueBrain> yippie, I made 1.2M in Diablo 3! OWH YEAH! PARTY! 19:43:02 <TrueBrain> (derailment of conversation ++ ) 19:43:28 <andythenorth> I came up with some idea of putting a vector / gradient on every link between every node for each cargo 19:43:33 <andythenorth> it was probably nuts 19:43:46 <Alberth> TrueBrain: it failed :) 19:43:50 <TrueBrain> dammit 19:43:56 <TrueBrain> I can kick andythenorth and tryr again? :D 19:43:58 * TrueBrain hugs andythenorth 19:44:00 <andythenorth> cargo would effectively move 'downhill' 19:44:02 <TrueBrain> I won't do that to you :P 19:44:12 * andythenorth would go and eat a sandwich if you did :P 19:45:21 <CIA-8> OpenTTD: frosch * r24337 /trunk/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: Allow filtering for multiple words (separated by whitespace resp. quoted) in the sign list, content- and NewGRF-guis. 19:45:23 <Alberth> that won't do, I think, with destinations both directions may be downhill for some packets 19:45:38 <andythenorth> true 19:46:29 <andythenorth> each link would have to store a vector per cargo for any given pair of source / destination 19:46:33 <andythenorth> which would be nuts 19:46:55 <andythenorth> and I can't think at all how to initially weight the vectors 19:47:35 <andythenorth> ach 19:47:45 <andythenorth> we should abandon all this complicated routing 19:47:52 <Alberth> only destination would be sufficient perhaps, I was thinking an quadtree with zones 19:47:55 <andythenorth> and steal the spot price economy from railroad tycoon 3 :P 19:48:17 <andythenorth> cargo at node A moves to whichever adjacent node has highest price :P 19:48:33 <andythenorth> until accepted somewhere 19:48:55 <andythenorth> price is set initially by distance 19:49:03 <andythenorth> then modulated by amounts delivered, and local demand 19:49:11 <Alberth> we cand also do a random walk of a few steps to decide where the cargo should go to 19:49:30 <Alberth> *can 19:49:59 <andythenorth> that would work how? 19:50:05 <Alberth> but then you stay within the existing network 19:50:35 <andythenorth> meh 19:50:40 <andythenorth> doesn't appeal :) 19:50:42 <Alberth> start at the source station, pick a random train to a random destination, repeat a few times 19:51:06 <Alberth> hmm, the destination may not want the cargo :( 19:51:20 <andythenorth> random walk of places that do? 19:51:25 <andythenorth> but then that's YACD :P 19:52:10 <Alberth> yeah, then you need routing information again beforehand :( 19:52:16 * andythenorth ponders spot price 19:52:22 <andythenorth> - 32 stored values per tile 19:52:36 <andythenorth> spot price at station A is the price at the station sign tile 19:52:40 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Is FISH going to have autorefit sometime? 19:52:45 <andythenorth> yes 19:52:56 <Alberth> s/tile/station/ ? 19:53:42 <andythenorth> the tile that holds the station sign ;) 19:53:57 <andythenorth> big stations might have a large price gradient across their tiles, so have to pick one tile 19:54:07 <andythenorth> - spot price distribution would work *nothing* like existing notions of cargo dist / YACD, this is an important note 19:54:17 <Alberth> ah, ok 19:54:28 <andythenorth> if there is a price gradient from A - D, passing through B 19:54:31 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:54:35 <andythenorth> and you have a route A-B, but not A-D 19:54:44 <andythenorth> cargo would move along your route 19:55:02 <andythenorth> you may or may not get paid for it, depending on...stuff 19:55:13 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 19:55:21 <andythenorth> ideally it would be dumped back into the public domain at B 19:55:27 <andythenorth> and you would be paid for the A-B leg 19:55:46 <Alberth> ware houses :) 19:55:54 <andythenorth> could be ;) 19:55:55 <andythenorth> the spot price determines demand; the cargo transport rates could be decoupled from that if desired 19:56:12 <andythenorth> that preserves the notional purity of ottd as a transport game :P 19:56:21 <andythenorth> we could just call it 'demand gradient' 19:56:24 <andythenorth> forget price 19:56:50 <andythenorth> hmm 19:56:52 <andythenorth> horrible idea 19:57:05 <andythenorth> newgrf warehouses could accept the cargo, then simply produce the same amount back out 19:57:40 <andythenorth> that would have some horribly interesting possibilities 19:57:43 <andythenorth> make them cheap to build 19:57:50 <andythenorth> move cargo A-B, get paid for it 19:58:00 <andythenorth> it never arrives at D where it is demanded :o 19:58:06 <andythenorth> interesting 19:58:15 <Alberth> we need industries with more input/output cargoes :) 19:58:19 <andythenorth> maybe 19:58:29 <andythenorth> that would be a limiting factor for this particular horrible idea :) 19:58:54 <Alberth> although introducing a warehouse concept in newgrf may be eaiser 19:58:59 <Alberth> *easier 19:59:24 <andythenorth> meanwhile, for a cargo source, how would output be split according to demand gradient? 19:59:27 <Alberth> hmm, have many 1tile industries close together ? :) 19:59:41 <andythenorth> need tile acceptance / production, as per houses :P 19:59:44 <andythenorth> probably patch-able 19:59:57 <andythenorth> if I'm producing coal at A, and have equal demand at D and E, split the output? 20:00:30 <NGC3982> guys, you usually have answers to things like this 20:00:31 <andythenorth> and if ratio of demand D:E is 60:40 split accordingly? 20:00:38 <Alberth> sort of production percantage 20:00:51 <NGC3982> im looking for the psychological name for people experiencing "repeating" in nature 20:01:00 <NGC3982> as in always finding 11:11 or 15:15 on watches 20:01:33 <Alberth> deja vu? (not entirely correct, I think) 20:02:16 <NGC3982> well, it might work 20:02:22 <Alberth> would be interesting if a GS could control percentage 20:02:23 <NGC3982> im not the kind of person who finds the numbers as above 20:02:32 <NGC3982> but i always seem to find "versions" of deja vu everywhere 20:05:49 <andythenorth> this is the RT3 demand map http://www.tycoon-games-review.com/images/Railroadtycoon3overview.jpg 20:05:57 <andythenorth> gradient runs red-green 20:06:12 <andythenorth> cargo will move by itself on the map if a sufficient gradient exists 20:06:22 <andythenorth> [this is not required for ottd] :P 20:06:37 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: I love how you completely missed what the post was about :D 20:07:11 <Alberth> andythenorth: yeah, I had such a picture in mind too 20:07:40 <andythenorth> nobody would pay you to move cargo from Eureka to Garberville, even it it was present there on the map 20:07:57 <andythenorth> whereas cargo produced at Redding, and moved to Chico would pay 20:08:04 <andythenorth> even though the demand point is Sacramento 20:08:27 <andythenorth> RT3 takes account of topography, which we don't need 20:08:43 <andythenorth> e.g. mountains and rivers affect the demand gradients significantly 20:09:03 <andythenorth> rivers will level a demand gradient rapidly 20:09:13 <andythenorth> mountains provide a very steep demand gradient 20:09:31 <andythenorth> building a railroad across a mountain range with supply on one side and demand on the other is a winning tactic 20:09:39 <andythenorth> if you don't go bankrupt whilst building :P 20:10:13 *** guru3 [~guru3@stgt-5f703baa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 20:10:30 <andythenorth> so....GS builds 32 signs on every tile, and stores cargo demand in it? 20:10:43 <andythenorth> then walks the entire map every so many ticks, adjusting gradients? :P 20:11:11 <Alberth> would be doable 20:11:29 <andythenorth> if we could expose the signs to stations... 20:11:48 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Custom_profit_calculation_for_cargoes_.2839.29 20:11:52 <guru3> Right. Well. Rather annoyingly, oftc enabled ipv6, which meant my poor ipv6 enabled, but not connected, irc client was rather confused connecting for a while. 20:12:23 <andythenorth> and if GS could read industry delivered cargo var for previous month... 20:12:42 <LordAro> wrt mb Copyright thingys: man, he is one stubborn chap :) I think he needs reminding that it's a game, he's doing it for 'fun' and no one is making/losing money from it 20:12:43 <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: you mean that i didnt pick up on that you were trying to make it clear on the doÂŽs and donts when someone infringes on your copyright? 20:12:51 <Vadtec> aside from having a high rating and lots of time, are there other ways to increase the production of a given industry? 20:12:59 <LordAro> coincidence! :) 20:13:16 <andythenorth> yeah, so...we discussed copyright as much as we need to already? :P 20:13:22 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: yes :D 20:13:29 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: did some digging on EU laws, posted it; kinda nice 20:13:46 <LordAro> of course, i respect mb's decision about his licensing, but i do think it's all rather unreasonable... 20:14:02 <TrueBrain> LordAro: well, he did make a good attempt at making us lose money ... either in goods or real valuata 20:14:07 <TrueBrain> it becomes scary real by such actions 20:15:22 <Alberth> Vadtec: use the manual industries newgrf? cheat and get control of production values? 20:15:29 * andythenorth wonders how often a demand gradient would need updating? 20:15:46 <andythenorth> is monthly frequent enough? 20:16:02 <Vadtec> Alberth: i should have specific "playing by the rules"...ive used the cheat before, it got boring 20:16:05 <Alberth> guru3: ah, that's why I see my ipv6 address now :) 20:16:09 <XeryusTC> LordAro: mb lives in germany, the only country that i know of where the government actively protects your copyright 20:16:47 <XeryusTC> over there they file a lawsuit when the government takes notice that youÂŽre violating copyright, and not when the actual rights holder files it 20:16:52 <XeryusTC> or well, that is how it seems sometimes 20:16:55 <guru3> Alberth: Yeah, Jun 6 was turn on day - which is grand. Just my ISP hasn't done it yet. Any of them. 20:17:15 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: EDEC allows anyone to file a lawsuit against violation of copyright 20:17:24 <TrueBrain> the DMCA, in constrast, only allows the owner to do so 20:17:33 <TrueBrain> DMCA is _much_ more strict in takedowns 20:17:42 <Alberth> guru3: mine did last year already, find a better one :) 20:18:32 <LordAro> ah yes, but you don't see plan3tmaker or others acting like that :) does anyone know why he is so protective of his 'intellectual property' ? 20:18:35 <guru3> Very limited choices where I am. :( 20:18:47 <TrueBrain> LordAro: god-complex? :D 20:19:00 <Alberth> andythenorth: depends what happens if you make a connection, does that mess up the gradient (and thus make my connection useless)? 20:19:11 <andythenorth> no 20:19:29 <andythenorth> the gradient would be modulated by demand at the destination primarily 20:19:30 <Alberth> LordAro: I fail to understand it, just as I fail to understand SAC et al 20:20:01 * andythenorth offers the marxist-leninist joke 20:20:08 <LordAro> i guess there will always be someone like that in a community :/ 20:20:19 <LordAro> likewise for SAC, etc 20:20:21 <TrueBrain> its just sad: we offer the ability to reach all of our community, and he opts-out and only want to reach a small portion 20:20:36 <TrueBrain> but, it is his choice 20:20:47 <TrueBrain> as long as they refrain from pissing off our 3rd parties, meh :P 20:21:49 <andythenorth> it's ok, most of them have gone off somewhere 'safe and welcoming' 20:22:07 <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: tbh i know jack shit about european copyright law, i mostly know of DMCA because of youtube :P 20:22:14 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: hehe 20:22:28 <TrueBrain> so you are just out for your 5 minutes of fame? 20:22:30 <TrueBrain> :P 20:22:44 <Alberth> andythenorth: then it depends on how often the demand at the destination changes 20:22:46 <andythenorth> Alberth: I would do this demand thing as a huge hack if possible 20:22:52 <XeryusTC> no, iÂŽm in it for 1.5h of mediocricy ;) 20:22:55 <andythenorth> - no touching cargo packets 20:22:59 <andythenorth> - no touching routing 20:23:05 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: hehe :D 20:23:18 <XeryusTC> see both of my OTTD letÂŽs plays :P 20:23:22 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: but you made me read about EU law, I am I kinda surprised :P 20:23:26 <frosch123> oh, the football thingie already started today, i was woried why it is so loud at the neighbours 20:23:31 * andythenorth wonders if it can be done entirely in newgrf and GS 20:23:40 <TrueBrain> we always follow DMCA rules, but as it turns out, we dont have to :P 20:23:42 <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: well, at least one of us is doing something productive then ;) 20:23:54 <TrueBrain> Dutch law suggests "5 days" to reply to takedowns 20:23:59 <Alberth> frosch123: you already missed yesterday evening :) (no idea who played then) 20:24:06 <TrueBrain> as ISP, you can ignore any takedown for ever and ever 20:24:14 <frosch123> Alberth: sounds like i am lucky :) 20:24:23 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: actually, it started yesterday 20:24:30 <TrueBrain> Usenet services, under EU law, are completely legal 20:24:32 <andythenorth> hey look, a railroad tycoon industry chart :P 20:24:32 <andythenorth> http://www.techtourguide.com/kurtdvich/RT2%20Industry.jpg 20:24:43 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: stop derailing :P 20:24:44 <andythenorth> they took the easy route away from quarries / open case mines too 20:24:45 <XeryusTC> does dutch law apply to OTTD? 20:24:47 <TrueBrain> I love the pun 20:24:50 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: not anymore 20:25:00 <TrueBrain> French law does I guess 20:25:13 <TrueBrain> possibly German 20:25:15 <TrueBrain> it will be hard 20:25:17 <XeryusTC> ottd.org is hosted in france nowadays? 20:25:22 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: well, german law was changed a few years back so that not only the upload is illegal, but download also for "obviously illegal" offers. where opinions differ what is "obvious" 20:25:24 <TrueBrain> yup; by a german company :P 20:25:43 <glx> TrueBrain: well OVH is originaly french ;) 20:25:53 <XeryusTC> now why would you do something as silly as that? :P 20:25:56 <andythenorth> hmm 20:25:59 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: EDEC says that a service that is a "mere conduit" of information, cannot be liable for any infringement 20:26:12 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and EDEC is EU law, so .. 20:26:12 <Alberth> andythenorth: you may be able to do cargo payments through subsidies, that would seem the only useful option to me 20:26:26 <andythenorth> you don't like the station profit cb? 20:26:35 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: but usenet does not only transmit the data, it also stores it 20:26:37 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: then I dont know german law, but in The Netherlands, EU laws always comes first, Dutc law second 20:26:49 <Alberth> andythenorth: how do you connect that to the gs? 20:26:53 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: caching is named explicit as allowed under the same entry 20:27:10 <TrueBrain> (and usenet does exactly that: cache the information) 20:27:16 <andythenorth> Alberth: not possible right now, except maybe via towns (which is low resolution) 20:27:22 <TinoDidriksen> EU law always comes first for any EU member. It's a requirement for membership. 20:27:28 <Alberth> :( 20:27:29 <TrueBrain> TinoDidriksen: false, sadly 20:27:35 <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: not true, Dutch law is to adhered by under EU rules, but Brussel forces member states to adapt the laws in some kind of way 20:27:39 <TrueBrain> there are a few exceptions :( 20:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause> caching is a "temporary storage without independent use", which does not apply here 20:27:54 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: the dutch law literally says that EU laws always come first 20:28:00 <TrueBrain> (well, in a more general sense even) 20:28:09 <glx> TrueBrain: traceroute seems to imply it's in france 20:28:11 <TrueBrain> so it is not literally :P 20:28:13 <TrueBrain> glx: it is 20:28:14 <Alberth> andythenorth: so it would be a pax-only game then 20:28:20 <TrueBrain> I even know which DC, room, rack, location 20:28:22 <TrueBrain> :P 20:28:22 <glx> roubaix it seems 20:28:40 <TrueBrain> OVH service interface is _very_ good 20:28:49 <andythenorth> Alberth: it's probably not viable to do this idea well without patches. I think the supply of cargo to stations would need to be patched. 20:28:49 <TrueBrain> they even show which servers (of all DCs they own) are on/off 20:28:51 <XeryusTC> TrueBrain goes to visit the server at least once a month to have a little party 20:28:52 <Alberth> TrueBrain: how many cms from the floor? :) 20:29:09 <TrueBrain> you see a full grid per DC, with green/red thingies of what is going on 20:29:12 <TrueBrain> it is really nice 20:29:24 <TrueBrain> once our server went offline, and they send a tech before I could report it 20:29:34 <Alberth> andythenorth: looks that way, unfortunately 20:29:38 <TrueBrain> it is by far the best ISP we have had for openttd.org 20:29:49 <glx> I like their flyspray too 20:29:53 <TrueBrain> (in respect to tech-response) 20:29:59 <TrueBrain> glx: yup, and it is public 20:30:04 <Eddi|zuHause> german copyright law tends to be one of the strictest, when it comes to "exceptions" 20:30:06 <TrueBrain> any interuption in their network, you can read there 20:30:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it does not have the fuzzy concept of "fair use" 20:30:33 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: mostly as there is no such thing? :P 20:30:45 <XeryusTC> EU wants to get rid of fair use 20:31:06 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: http://www.tweedekamer.nl/hoe_werkt_het/tweede_kamer_en_europa/wet_nederland/index.jsp <- btw, to show you it is the law, to put EU law first :P 20:31:19 <TrueBrain> "Europese wetten gelden boven nationale wetten." 20:31:22 *** telanus1 [~Barney_Er@196-210-208-84.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has left #openttd [QUIT :Leaving.] 20:31:39 <TrueBrain> "een Europese verordening is na inwerkingtreding meteen ook een Nederlandse wet." 20:31:52 <XeryusTC> seems i was incorrect then 20:31:57 <TrueBrain> only seems? :P 20:32:00 <TrueBrain> :D:D 20:32:01 <andythenorth> small lego fire truck, actual water: http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=68324 20:32:23 <XeryusTC> i was always under the impression that EU law had to be adapted by a member state before it was in full effect 20:32:32 <TrueBrain> not in The Netherlands :P 20:32:35 <TrueBrain> it bites us a lot 20:32:40 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i don't think a "EU law comes first" law in germany would get past the constitutional court 20:33:00 <TrueBrain> I have no clue 20:33:01 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: EU laws always must be turned into a 'proper' national law 20:33:08 <TrueBrain> I only know we do, and that we are one of the few 20:33:23 <TrueBrain> for us it is easy: if the EU says it is so, it is so 20:33:29 <frosch123> yeah, i think there are also multiple lawsuits pending against germany 20:33:36 <Eddi|zuHause> although, there is a "federal law comes before country law" 20:33:40 <frosch123> for not turning eu law into national properly 20:34:11 <TrueBrain> but indeed TinoDidriksen is correct, they are suppose to make it their own law ASAP 20:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. a famous "law" is that the constitution of Hessen contains the death penalty, but this is overriden by the federal constitution that says there is no death penalty 20:34:23 <TrueBrain> but only the EC can force it 20:34:24 <XeryusTC> in the netherlands they tend to pass a law in the last 2 weeks before penalties get applied for not adapting laws in time :o 20:34:35 <FLHerne> I now have massive congestion in every form of transport :-( :D 20:34:42 * TrueBrain is happy 20:34:49 <TrueBrain> derailed #openttd successful 20:34:55 <TrueBrain> it annoyed me that they wer etalking so much about OpenTTD 20:34:59 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: lots of countries have such lawsuits pending. that is "common practice" 20:35:06 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: floor is yours again :P 20:35:09 <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: maybe you should visit some other channels 20:35:19 <glx> andythenorth: I killed a pump playing with water 20:35:25 <andythenorth> moi aussi 20:35:29 <TrueBrain> euh 20:35:31 <TrueBrain> that sounds dirty 20:35:35 <andythenorth> never quite comes out 20:36:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: I think it's worth thinking about demand some more 20:36:08 <andythenorth> as YACD is dead for now 20:36:19 <andythenorth> and other interesting stuff seems dead, like ports 20:36:27 <Eddi|zuHause> <XeryusTC> in the netherlands they tend to pass a law in the last 2 weeks before penalties get applied for not adapting laws in time :o <-- that is a typical way to silence the opposition 20:36:27 <andythenorth> and nobody gives a rats ass about roadtypes 20:36:29 <michi_cc> andythenorth: It's not dead, it's hibernating ;) 20:36:36 <andythenorth> yay \o/ 20:36:55 <Eddi|zuHause> "we cannot discuss alternatives at this point, because then we would not make the deadline" 20:38:49 <XeryusTC> Eddi|zuHause: my naive mind prefers to think that they are all just slackers and dont want to get an EU fine :P 20:40:00 <Eddi|zuHause> XeryusTC: the end of this naivity was a major cause for the rise of the pirate party in germany 20:40:01 <andythenorth> is a bye enough for demand gradient? 20:40:08 <andythenorth> byte * 20:40:15 <andythenorth> probably ample 20:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: depends what you want to model 20:40:39 <andythenorth> arbitrary 'demand' amount per tile 20:40:44 <XeryusTC> Eddi|zuHause: actually, iÂŽm thinking of voting pirate party over here in the next elections, but they seem like a bunch of incompetent morons 20:40:52 <XeryusTC> they _really_ need to get some media training 20:41:04 * andythenorth wonders if demand can be stored per station rather than per tile 20:41:17 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: it is because they ARE a bunch of incompetent morons :P 20:41:27 <FLHerne> Now my MGR coal trains have got stuck and blocked the suburban trains, which have queued across the fast lines, blocking a branch junction and causing a tailback through the wood station, obstructing the scrap, oil and timber trains, which have blocked everything else :o . That blocked all the level crossings, so all the trams have stopped as well... :-( 20:41:39 * FLHerne starts restructuring his network again 20:41:42 <andythenorth> FLHerne: just crash them all 20:41:45 <andythenorth> problem solved 20:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> XeryusTC: they have gotten quite some attention over here because they won several regional elections (by "won" i mean "over the 5% barrier") 20:41:54 <andythenorth> we need the equivalent of lemmings 'nuke' 20:42:17 <Eddi|zuHause> XeryusTC: now they have some serious administrative problems, which they should better solve until the "real" election next year 20:42:25 <FLHerne> Autorefit is a whole new way to break everything, too :D 20:42:30 <Eddi|zuHause> or they might drop below 5% again 20:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "demand per station" is problematic as soon as you get overlapping areas 20:43:40 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:43:51 <andythenorth> yup 20:43:55 <andythenorth> demand is not simple anyway :P 20:44:08 <Terkhen> good night 20:44:11 <FLHerne> Does transferring cargo: tram -> train -> road -> ship -> tram -> train -> tram count as too many steps? I just kept adding new bits, and now it's confusing :-( 20:44:22 <XeryusTC> Eddi|zuHause: over here they dont even seem to be able to agree on what the motto of the party is when interviewed 20:44:56 <Eddi|zuHause> XeryusTC: "something with copyright and direct democracy" 20:45:22 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 20:46:13 <andythenorth> work in progress: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1472/ 20:46:35 <XeryusTC> Eddi|zuHause: the motto during the last election was šremix politicsš 20:47:22 <XeryusTC> which was horrible imo 20:47:49 <XeryusTC> and it was made even worse that everyone in the party was a neckbeard who didnt know how to talk 20:48:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the most famous motto over here was "Alles klarmachen zum Àndern" [which is a play on the pirate expression "klarmachen zum entern", when you start capturing a ship] 20:48:47 <Alberth> andythenorth: use 'price' as gradient unit? 20:48:48 <andythenorth> update: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1473/ 20:49:23 <andythenorth> Alberth: makes sense, although I'm also happy to preserve a distinction between 'price' and 'cargo payment rate you earn for transporting' 20:49:28 <andythenorth> although my plan links them :P 20:49:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: one of the main problems with "demand" is industries that have custom behaviour, e.g. stockpile limits, conversion speed, etc. 20:49:49 <andythenorth> [shrug] 20:49:50 <andythenorth> those are bad industries :P 20:50:03 <frosch123> hmm, i assume they won :p 20:50:16 <Alberth> someone did I am sure :) 20:50:20 <NGC3982> http://home.swipnet.se/~w-52132/te3a/jokes/idiom.html 20:50:24 <NGC3982> from a proud swede. 20:50:44 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: then they lag 15 minutes :p 20:50:54 <andythenorth> 'provide a way for newgrf to modify demand' :( 20:50:59 <andythenorth> ^ sucks 20:51:17 <Alberth> yeah, doesn't sound newgrf-y 20:51:37 <andythenorth> actually, industries with stockpile limits just work 20:51:44 <Alberth> well, enough today, good night 20:51:49 <andythenorth> the cargo piles up at the station and demand plummets :P 20:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: newgrfs need a property or callback to influence the demand calculation, otherwise it can't work 20:52:11 <andythenorth> conversion speed is harder, can't figure that out 20:52:26 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has left #openttd [] 20:52:35 <andythenorth> in that case, industry has accepted the cargo, so demand would continue 20:52:54 <andythenorth> ho, actually, what's the problem with that? :) 20:52:56 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-115-173.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 20:53:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just imagine a FIRS smithy forge with a conversion factor of 6/8 and a steel mill with conversion factor of 8/8. naturally i'd expect most cargo to go to the steel mill 20:53:47 <andythenorth> why? 20:54:04 <andythenorth> I don't disagree, just wondering 20:54:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because it doesn't make sense that a 2 tile smithy-forge processes the same amount of cargo as a 10 tile steel mill 20:54:54 <andythenorth> blurs the line between newgrf and other stuff 20:55:12 <andythenorth> either industry newgrfs get full control of economy, or they have to not get that :P 20:55:28 <andythenorth> we decided they don't get that already 20:55:29 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no blur, if you set the demand-modificator consistently for all industries in the newgrf 20:55:38 <andythenorth> well, it's possible 20:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the same as the newgrf can decide for the appearance chance, but not where exactky the industry will be created 20:56:31 <andythenorth> cb to return a modifier to the demand calculation 20:56:42 <andythenorth> when production cb runs 20:56:59 <andythenorth> or just an increase / decrease 20:57:16 <andythenorth> make the demand calculation work similarly to production multiplier at primary industry? 20:57:22 <Eddi|zuHause> a property with an optional cb32 20:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> when the cb is run is to be decided 20:57:39 <andythenorth> sounds sane 20:57:54 <andythenorth> starts to expand the scope of this idea, not sure if that's terrible or great 20:58:15 <andythenorth> why isn't setting demand the domain of GS? 20:58:36 <Eddi|zuHause> property defaults to the "acceptance ratio" (e.g. default houses 3/8 goods make a demand modifier of 3 for "old" GRFs) 20:58:46 <andythenorth> also sounds sane 20:58:54 <Eddi|zuHause> demand is summed over all tiles of the industry that accept the cargo 20:59:01 <andythenorth> +1 20:59:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so "large" industries will by default generate larger demand 20:59:15 <andythenorth> I'll paste this into my 'spec' 20:59:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and a station sums all "demand modificators" in its radius 20:59:48 <Eddi|zuHause> to calculate the station demand 21:00:03 <Eddi|zuHause> which is cached for destination purposes 21:00:16 <andythenorth> now I defer to you ;) 21:00:22 <andythenorth> you're moving faster than my brain 21:00:48 <Eddi|zuHause> my brain moves way too fast to express my thoughts properly :p 21:01:06 <andythenorth> I think a limiting radius on demand is wise 21:01:17 <andythenorth> probably 255 tiles, for convenience of it being byte-sized 21:01:26 <Eddi|zuHause> what for? 21:01:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the acceptance radius is already limited by "station spread" 21:01:57 <Eddi|zuHause> why introduce more limits? 21:02:10 <andythenorth> so a station only demands what is in the catchment? 21:02:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and the size of the variable is a design decision that should be made WAAY later in the process 21:02:35 <andythenorth> accepted 21:02:48 <andythenorth> more interestingly - is your idea based on station catchments? 21:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i thought that was obvious 21:03:12 <andythenorth> it is now 21:04:01 <andythenorth> I can't think of anything wrong with it 21:04:08 <andythenorth> this rules out getting paid for partial routes 21:04:14 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, i tried to find a translation for "Einzugsbereich" and the words "catchment area" didn't appear... 21:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think paying for partial routes is bad for gameplay 21:04:50 <andythenorth> possibly 21:05:23 <andythenorth> how would you route cargo in this model? 21:05:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: imagine an industry on an island, you build a train line to the shore, and earn much more than when you complete the journey with a ship 21:05:59 <andythenorth> why much more? 21:06:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because the ship is slower, so the last leg produces a "loss" 21:07:19 <andythenorth> well I think my idea involves a fairly significant, probably impossible, rethink of payment 21:08:16 <andythenorth> if demand gradient is A-C, the train is A-B and the ship is B-C, payment for each leg depends on demand gradient for each leg in my model 21:08:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you would need a complicated scheme to make the payment for partial routes much less due to the "walking" distance. but then initially starting out with a passenger line will create huge losses, because you don't cover a large part of the map yet, but you'll get the passengers of such parts with extremely low payment 21:08:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: instead of the "nearby" passengers which pay the full price 21:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not sure how you translate "demand" into "payment" 21:09:43 <andythenorth> cargo constant rate * distance * variable factor for 'demand' 21:09:52 <andythenorth> maybe time as well :( 21:10:06 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-89-176-205-166.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 21:10:15 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.230] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:10:40 <andythenorth> ach, I know it can be done from clean sheet of paper because it works trivially in RT3 21:10:46 <andythenorth> but that is a very different context 21:10:52 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.230] has joined #openttd 21:10:55 *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ 21:11:05 <andythenorth> transplanting that model might fail :P 21:11:18 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: "You are walking me on the nerves" <- that's pretty much exactly what we say in german 21:11:34 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: oh, neat! :) 21:11:57 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: what is it in german? 21:12:14 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: "Du gehst mir auf die Nerven" 21:12:59 <Achilleshiel> wo sind die kakke am dampfen? 21:13:05 <NGC3982> cool 21:13:13 <NGC3982> "Du gÃ¥r mig pÃ¥ nerverna". 21:13:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Achilleshiel: totally different thing :p 21:13:17 <NGC3982> :) 21:13:41 <Achilleshiel> i know:P 21:14:16 <NGC3982> the swedish (and thus german) linguistic history is rather interesting 21:14:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Achilleshiel: besides, Kacke is singular, so "wo ist ..." </korinthenkacker> 21:14:56 <NGC3982> its interesting to see how the languages in northern europe melt together the longer back in history you get 21:15:06 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ok so in the model I am figuring out...cargo packets have no fixed destination 21:15:09 <Achilleshiel> Eddi|zuHause: my german is not that good, 21:15:19 <NGC3982> "kakke" could be used to describe poop in swedish. 21:15:28 <andythenorth> so the short PAX line would make money assuming acceptance at the terminating station 21:15:32 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: yes, that is what it means. 21:15:37 <Achilleshiel> lol 21:15:43 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: ah, really? 21:15:44 <NGC3982> haha 21:15:52 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: literally: "where is the shit steaming?" 21:15:56 <NGC3982> some southern swedes use "kack" for poop. 21:15:58 <NGC3982> ah, i see. 21:16:44 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: in the non-literal meaning it's something like "where is the party happening?" 21:16:52 <NGC3982> ok 21:17:02 <NGC3982> well, "shit" is well used around here for almost everything 21:17:09 <Achilleshiel> in the netherlands it is kak that stands for poop:P 21:17:48 <NGC3982> "det hÀr Àr skit" > "this is (really bad)". "det hÀr Àr skiten" > "this is awesome". 21:18:18 <NGC3982> and the only difference is that "shit" is changed to "the shit" (in literal translation). 21:18:31 <NGC3982> although, thats more like popular-swedish then actual-swedish. 21:19:03 <Achilleshiel> slang-swedish? 21:19:17 <NGC3982> yes, somewhat. 21:19:29 <NGC3982> our language is somewhat odd at the moment 21:19:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i would be imagining everything containing "shit" is slang in pretty much every language on this planet :p 21:19:54 <NGC3982> fredrik lindström (a popular linguistic/tv presenter) calls it "the new youtube swedish". 21:20:20 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: hehe, true. 21:21:06 <andythenorth> meh, my idea is mostly good, but requires leaving the current crappy transfer system in place :P 21:21:35 <NGC3982> i have noticed the young swedes are using a new internet based language as never before 21:21:46 <NGC3982> even people with very little relation to internet 21:21:51 <NGC3982> "lol", for instance 21:22:25 <Eddi|zuHause> there was quite a hype on "sms speak" a few years ago 21:22:52 <andythenorth> slang ~= language :P 21:23:00 <NGC3982> of course 21:23:54 <andythenorth> so if acceptance is 3/8, could that be per month? 21:24:03 <andythenorth> and delivering more than 3/8 causes demand to fall? 21:24:19 <andythenorth> not necessarily to zero, but to < 3/8 21:25:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Now it is driven! - Nu aer det kört! <-- in german you might say "Der Zug ist abgefahren" [the train has driven away]. or in english "that ship has sailed" 21:25:25 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: ah, neat. 21:25:34 <NGC3982> haha, a very transportational saying. 21:25:47 <NGC3982> "nu Àr det kört" is very, very well used 21:26:05 <NGC3982> from rural south to nortern same-people 21:26:23 <andythenorth> good night 21:26:24 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has left #openttd [] 21:26:30 <NGC3982> Achilleshiel: nighty nighty! 21:26:54 <Achilleshiel> NGC3982: goodnight;) 21:27:04 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: another funky thing i notice with swedish is the use of double-words to emphasize something. 21:27:20 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: "hejhej" or "ajaj" 21:27:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Put your legs on your the back - LÀgga benen pÃ¥ ryggen. <-- here the closest german saying i find would be "Die FÃŒ0e in die Hand nehmen" [take your feet in the hands] 21:27:35 <NGC3982> oh 21:27:42 <NGC3982> "In the hands", as in "make it happend"? 21:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause> *FÃŒÃe 21:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: not really 21:30:20 <NGC3982> ah, i see 21:30:51 <NGC3982> i was thinking, since the swedish phrase "ta hand om det" means "take hands on it" (litteraly) 21:31:07 <NGC3982> literally 21:32:16 <frosch123> it's more like, take the tools with the hands and start working, but the tools are the feets and working is moving :) 21:32:54 <NGC3982> and "ta hand om det" means "fix it". 21:33:15 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: in german, "Hand anlegen" may mean very different things :p 21:33:32 <NGC3982> oh you 21:33:35 * NGC3982 giggles 21:33:51 <NGC3982> well, that's german for you 21:33:57 <NGC3982> making love like making cars 21:37:20 <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/od8ly.png 21:37:26 <NGC3982> what does those symbols mean? 21:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Give the iron! - Ge jÀrnet! <-- not entirely sure, but this may mean "Gib Gas" [as in accelerate the car] or "Gib Gummi" [as in accelerate so fast that you leave tire marks] 21:38:22 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: profit, little profit, loss or "too early to tell" 21:39:31 <Wolf01> 'night 21:39:36 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 21:40:43 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: whereas "in die Eisen gehen" [go into the iron(s)] actually means "step on the brakes" 21:40:48 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: ah, i see 21:41:35 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: oh, "ge jÀrnet" i rarely used to encourage speed or stuff like that. 21:42:02 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: it's mostly used to motivate a good job 21:42:28 <NGC3982> as in "go our there and kick some ass!" 21:43:03 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: oh, then it doesn't quite have the same connotation as "Gib Gas" [which is usually used to yell at someone to go faster] 21:44:03 <NGC3982> ah, i see. 21:45:18 <Eddi|zuHause> "Gib Gummi" is a slightly more ironic way to say the same thing 21:47:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Pull to where the pepper grows! - Dra dit pepparn vÀxer! <-- !Geh wohin der Pfeffer wÀchst" is almost the same in german 21:48:27 <TrueBrain> lol @ mb. He says things that are completely new to me. Now we, as OpenTTD, have a higher responsibility (than people who don't mirror? I dunno), because people can upload stuff ... 21:48:53 <TrueBrain> isn't it said back in 1998 or 2002 (DMCA, EU variant) that you as website are NOT responsible for what your users upload? 21:48:55 <TrueBrain> lolz 21:48:58 * TrueBrain gets some popcorn 21:49:25 <TrueBrain> redefining the internet, one step at the time 21:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: you are not responsible for what you don't know, but once you are made aware of something, you have to react and take it down 21:49:45 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: yup; in a REASONABLE timeframe :D 21:50:04 <TrueBrain> he seems to claim that his < 24h is reasonable for some reason ... I dunno what he is claiming, I lost him a while ago :P 21:50:50 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and he seems to use it as excuse he emailed the mirror-sites ... which under that argument have nothing to do with it 21:50:55 <TrueBrain> maybe you understand it? 21:51:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i have not read it yet 21:51:24 <TrueBrain> don't pain yourself over it then :D 21:51:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm not really in the mood to 21:51:37 <TrueBrain> I can imagine ;) 21:52:12 <TrueBrain> which brings us to a good point: DIABLO 3! 21:52:54 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: the hidden feature of the error 37 minigame? 21:53:04 <TrueBrain> I havent seen error 37 in a week 21:56:10 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: "It only ran out in the sand. - Det bara rann ut i sanden. <-- "Das ist im Sande verlaufen" works in german as well 21:56:30 <NGC3982> :) 21:57:05 <NGC3982> i guess most of them date back to the day when both languages were more ..intertwined. 21:57:34 <Eddi|zuHause> etymologically, that might have been derived from sand being on the shore, so what you made in the sand would eventually be washed away once the tide comes 22:04:27 <XeryusTC> TrueBrain: btw, i forgot to say this but it might help if you forward contact@openttd.org to info@ too, contact seems more general to me than info 22:05:38 <TrueBrain> it does? 22:05:44 <TrueBrain> I never emailed anyone at contact@ 22:05:51 <TrueBrain> hmm 22:06:09 <frosch123> hmm, i am used to people holding placards into the camera at live events... but nowadays they are holding their notebooks or ipads showing some texts :o 22:06:39 <TrueBrain> XeryusTC: if you go there, I guess there are many many more address people might email; reality is you can just open up Contact page, and see which we suggest to email :P 22:06:45 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: they saw that in a pirate party conference? : 22:06:55 <frosch123> TrueBrain: we should have ten or more contact addresses, so the dev addresses move more down 22:07:05 <TrueBrain> frosch123: or just rmeove them :D 22:07:07 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d083c70.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 22:07:09 <frosch123> how about, complains@, rants@, praising@ 22:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause> "abuse@" seems to be somewhat standardised 22:08:03 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: we always have had an abuse@ for that reason 22:08:08 <TrueBrain> as we do noc@ and root@ 22:08:18 <TrueBrain> but now we also document the existance of abuse@ :P 22:08:21 <frosch123> TrueBrain: it makes sense to have some credits on the site, and usually they would involve email 22:08:45 *** guru3 [~guru3@stgt-5f703baa.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:09:03 <frosch123> what stands "noc@" for? 22:09:17 <frosch123> NOtiCe seems silly :) 22:09:26 <Xaroth> Network operating center 22:09:47 <frosch123> ah, i think in the 90's there was usually a webmaster@ 22:09:57 <Xaroth> webmaster@ is for websites 22:10:01 <Xaroth> noc@ is for hosting companies 22:10:15 <TrueBrain> when I contact other ISPs, I always try noc@ first :P 22:10:21 <Xaroth> same 22:10:24 <TrueBrain> so out of habbit, openttd.org has it too :P 22:10:43 <frosch123> btw. what are you doing here? there has been no commit to opendune in 2012 :p 22:11:05 <TrueBrain> and the relation between those 2 sentences is ... ? :) 22:11:06 <Xaroth> don't tempt me to make a silly commit to opendune 22:11:21 <TrueBrain> and please, don't give him ideas .. he is a terrible (C) coder 22:11:31 <frosch123> TrueBrain: i read xaroth's signature on the forums 22:11:41 <TrueBrain> frosch123: ah :D 22:11:44 <TrueBrain> context is everything 22:11:47 <frosch123> i would not have recognised him otherwise 22:12:01 <Xaroth> \o/ 22:12:05 <Xaroth> I lurk much 22:18:45 *** guru3 [~guru3@stgt-5f703baa.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 22:26:03 *** roadt_ [~roadt@60.168.95.166] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:26:40 <glx> <TrueBrain> and please, don't give him ideas .. he is a terrible (C) coder <-- I agree :) 22:33:20 <TrueBrain> its funny because its true 22:33:44 <Xaroth> no love for me :( 22:34:07 <Xaroth> and yes, I suck at C 22:34:13 <Xaroth> i'll prefer Python for now 22:37:06 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 22:45:08 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 22:46:54 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 22:55:23 <Eddi|zuHause> something is buggy on the forums... it says "new posts in this forum", but when i go into it, there is no thread with a new post 22:57:03 <frosch123> also look at the stickies and annoucements :p 22:57:34 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the announcements never counted before... 22:57:40 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido] 22:58:01 <frosch123> maybe they never got posts :p 22:58:26 <frosch123> also you have to distinguish global annoucments, and those specific to a forum section 23:02:58 *** Hazzard [~7b780a2d@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 23:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably it 23:05:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but they are not marked differently 23:06:04 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. the TT-meet announcement has also new posts, but it doesn't show as "new posts in this forum" 23:06:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but both are shown in the announcement section next to each other, without visual difference 23:09:43 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-152-250-188.range81-152.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0/20120605113340]] 23:12:17 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-115-173.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:15:11 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-89-176-205-166.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! 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