Log for #openttd on 17th June 2012:
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00:20:01  <Wolf01> 'night
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05:54:38  <Terkhen> good morning
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06:44:05  <Nat_as> If you zoom all the way out, and can't see the edges of the map
06:44:08  <Nat_as> it's too big
06:44:14  <Nat_as> I'm sorry scenerio developers
06:44:21  <Nat_as> just because you can, does not mean you should.
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07:35:32  * Alberth offers free cookies for all
07:38:36  <TWerkhoven> mmmm, cookies
07:41:36  <planetmaker> moin
07:41:57  <planetmaker> hm, coodies :-)
07:42:00  <planetmaker> *nom nom*
07:45:35  <Alberth> see, that helps :)
07:45:41  <Alberth> good morning :)
07:47:52  * Alberth needs FISH with auto-refit
07:49:20  <Prof_Frink> auto-refish
07:51:47  <planetmaker> haha :-) Yeah. all those cookie-addicts :-)
07:52:19  <planetmaker> hm, auto-refit is different than refit. But... very nice. It should get that indeed. And heqs, too
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08:16:52  <Wolf01> good morning o/
08:16:59  <Alberth> moin Wolf01
08:17:36  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
08:18:30  <Wolf01> I removed "some" dust from my pc today, it feels better now :D
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08:21:39  <Alberth> always a good thing to prepare for all the free days in summer
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09:00:26  <ErichEckner> Hi!
09:00:26  <ErichEckner> I've got a question about chill's patchpack: I installed id on a linux machine and on a windows one (both from revision 22553), it run's fine, but in network mode he won't connect due to "version" issues. Any suggestions?
09:00:42  <ErichEckner> *id -> it
09:00:50  <planetmaker> OpenTTD requires exact version matches
09:01:07  <planetmaker> you can never connect with one version to a server with another version
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09:01:13  <ErichEckner> but rev22553 should be the same version, shouldn't?
09:01:36  <Terkhen> ErichEckner: it should be, but I have no idea about how versions are released for chill's patchpack
09:01:55  <planetmaker> yeah. *should*. I'm not sure what the PP does in detail
09:02:15  <ErichEckner> hmm, so I should use the same rev and the identical .patch-file?
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09:02:28  <planetmaker> you self-compiled?
09:02:34  <ErichEckner> yes, both
09:02:41  <planetmaker> and of course. same rev and same patch
09:02:48  <planetmaker> otherwise it won't work
09:03:17  <ErichEckner> i used the same rev, about the same patch I'm not shure (I downloaded them to different times, but both are for rev 22553)
09:03:22  <Terkhen> also, since chill patchpack has binaries in its thread, you will have less headaches if you just use those
09:03:35  <ErichEckner> ... hmpf
09:03:36  <Alberth> you may want to try unpatched versions first, so you know your machine / network setup is ok
09:03:49  <ErichEckner> have tried this before and it works
09:04:13  <planetmaker> you might consider to use the pre-compiled ones:
09:04:31  <Alberth> ok, so that points to differences in the patches, or in the way you build the programs
09:05:41  <ErichEckner> hmm, there _were_ differences in building, but I thought they just appear to how I had to install the dependencies
09:06:00  <ErichEckner> ... maybe I'll just use ready binaries
09:06:42  <Terkhen> if you prefer to self compile, first compile the same clean revision (without the patch) and once that works, make sure that you are using the same patch for both
09:07:17  <Alberth> and if the latter fails, ask at the topic, as it points to a problem in the code, perhaps
09:07:49  <ErichEckner> thanks, I've got quite a plan now :-)
09:07:57  <Terkhen> hmm... is the base costs newgrf deprecated or just outdated?
09:08:18  <planetmaker> Probably just a bit outdated
09:08:27  <planetmaker> base costs are not deprecated, are they?
09:08:32  <planetmaker> which?
09:08:43  <Terkhen> they are not, I was just asking about the newgrf :)
09:08:49  <Terkhen> ok, I'll post a few feature requests then
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09:13:34  <Terkhen> besides that, I just need an interesting single player game script :P
09:14:38  <planetmaker> :-)
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09:17:03  <hackalittlebit> mornin
09:17:38  <ErichEckner> I could use the source of chill and compile then ...
09:19:53  <hackalittlebit> Alberth: thanks for advice, installed tortoisehg, very nice :)
09:20:13  <Alberth> you're welcome :)
09:20:30  <hackalittlebit> made clone and clone of clone :)
09:20:40  <Alberth> nice eh ?
09:21:13  <hackalittlebit> clone of trunk.
09:21:36  <Alberth> have you ever worked with version control systems before?
09:22:08  <hackalittlebit> Terkhen: no
09:22:13  <hackalittlebit> sorry
09:22:16  <hackalittlebit> no
09:22:48  <hackalittlebit> well I allways used tortoisesvn
09:23:19  <Alberth> ok, you are in for an enjoyable ride then, you'll wonder how you ever managed without a vcs (version control system)
09:23:52  <hackalittlebit> :)
09:24:13  <Alberth> the biggest problem is that these things are highly generic, so they offer little guidance in how to do things
09:24:29  <Alberth> but just ask here, there is plenty of knowledge here
09:24:47  <hackalittlebit> Thanks Alberth
09:25:08  <planetmaker> hi hackalittlebit
09:25:15  <Alberth> and do read the mercurial book :)
09:26:55  <hackalittlebit> ok I will, one of the reasons I never changed is because of not knowing if tortoisesvn and tortoisehg could live together.
09:26:55  <planetmaker> the mercurial queues are a nice way to organize patches to be submitted to trunk
09:27:15  <planetmaker> During (heavy) development it might sometimes be a bit unhandy at times, though
09:27:42  <planetmaker> so that I first write and then re-write in form of a mq
09:28:24  <Terkhen> yes, develop first, think about distribution/commit later
09:28:26  <Terkhen> :P
09:28:57  <planetmaker> yeah. When there's still much code to add, I find it sometimes a bit too tedious to constantly hg qpush and hg qpop
09:29:07  <planetmaker> easier to disect later when things work
09:31:12  <hackalittlebit> Terkhen: I cant config png because zlib directory is not encountered. what flag do I have to use to tell where to fins zlib libs and includes?
09:32:00  <Terkhen> no idea, I never used those
09:32:01  <Alberth> I do that too, first make a clone for hacking the source until it works, then make a new clone and copy stuff from the first one in a proper queue
09:32:06  <Terkhen> you can check them with ./configure --help
09:32:09  <Terkhen> (IIRC)
09:32:16  * Alberth nods
09:32:53  <hackalittlebit> yeah was doing something like that already
09:34:52  <hackalittlebit> Terkhen i changed wiki to point to libpng-1.5.11,
09:35:16  <hackalittlebit> it was 1.5.10
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09:36:14  <Terkhen> hackalittlebit: nice, thanks :)
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10:32:06  <ErichEckner> well, everything works with the binaries ... maybe I'm really to stupid :-/
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10:36:17  <Alberth> nah, computers are just plain stupid in explaining why things won't work
10:36:49  <Alberth> together with a complicated and lengthy build and setup process, it gives you many hours of debug fun
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10:48:20  <ErichEckner> cu l8er
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12:16:43  <jstepien> hi
12:17:05  <jstepien> I've added a "saved at" label to the load game window
12:17:12  <jstepien> here's how it looks like:
12:17:35  <jstepien> I'm working on a patch and I'd like to learn what do you think about it
12:19:19  <jstepien> I'd find it useful, especially when you've got a lot of saved games and have no idea when you've played a given game
12:19:20  <FLHerne> It looks useful :-)
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12:20:00  <FLHerne> 'Saved at yesterday' sounds a bit odd though. Maybe the strings need to be changed a little?
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12:20:41  <jstepien> the format of the date is an open issue
12:22:15  <jstepien> there's no date prettyfing yet - what you see in the screenshot is a hardcoded string
12:24:03  <FLHerne> Oh, ok
12:25:50  <Alberth> seems useful
12:26:43  <jstepien> I guess that hh:mm or something else depending on your locale would be fine, but for last last 24 hours or so we can show prettyfied strings
12:27:38  <jstepien> it depends of course, but for me it's more natural to read
12:28:11  <jstepien> in such case though the "saved at" string would need to be replaced with something more appopriate
12:35:04  <planetmaker> there different formattings available for dates. And there's already a setting for the (default) savegame name
12:36:11  <frosch123> <- does something similiar, only date though, no time
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12:40:03  <jstepien> frosch123: thanks for the link, it looks quite similar to what I'm working on. In fact I didn't know about the todo list on the wiki
12:41:28  <jstepien> frosch123: speaking of the attached patch, is sys/types.h available on windows?
12:42:14  <jstepien> planetmaker: thanks, where should I look for them?
12:42:21  <frosch123> no idea :)
12:43:08  <Terkhen> jstepien: on mingw maybe, on visual studio almost certainly not
12:43:18  <planetmaker> jstepien: the date format strings are defined somewhere in the string*.[cpp|h] files. Easiest to look at the language files
12:43:32  <planetmaker> There they are used definitely
12:43:34  <frosch123> jstepien: however, since the fios gui can already sort for date, there is already an os independent function in ottd for that
12:43:48  <planetmaker> or in the saveload code the date should thus be used, too
12:44:40  <jstepien> thanks guys, I'll be back with a patch to discuss
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13:33:24  <Javis> crew?
13:33:32  <Alberth> who?
13:33:45  <V453000> everybody! :D
13:34:19  <Javis> someone with experience with dedicated server..
13:35:09  <Terkhen> @get #openttd -3
13:35:09  <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Don't ask to ask, just ask
13:35:18  <Javis> hmmm..
13:36:01  <Javis> when i start dedicated server on LAN without internet access.. the server stops after map generation is complete..
13:36:24  <Terkhen> did you check the server log?
13:36:32  <Javis> no
13:36:40  <Javis> where is it located?
13:37:18  <Terkhen> depends on your operative system
13:37:28  <Javis> xp
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13:37:44  <Terkhen> in the console where you launched it or in the console that appears when you launch it
13:38:14  <Javis> but the console dissappears before i can read something..
13:38:34  <Alberth> open the console manually, and start openttd from it
13:39:03  <Javis> i just use .bat to start..
13:39:19  <Terkhen> launch the bat from a console then
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13:40:33  <Javis> cmd?
13:42:02  <Alberth> Even I know that, and I don't even have windows machine :p
13:42:21  <Javis> but server still shut down..
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13:43:01  <Terkhen> Javis: as I said, you can either check the server log or keep guessing :)
13:43:18  <Javis> but where is the log?
13:43:54  <Terkhen> scroll a while back, I already answered that
13:44:03  <Terkhen> in the console :)
13:44:23  <Javis> it wont say where..
13:45:05  <Terkhen> Javis: open a console, execute the bat, check the output
13:45:16  <Terkhen> and then tell us what it says
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13:45:29  <Terkhen> otherwise I won't be able to help you
13:45:38  <Alberth> alternatively, check the bat file, perhaps it does something weird with the log
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13:46:20  <Javis> the bat file: start openttd.exe -D
13:46:38  <Terkhen> I have no idea of what start does
13:46:50  <Terkhen> just go to the folder with the console and run openttd -D
13:46:55  <Javis> it starts the file specified..
13:47:17  <Terkhen> probably from a different console
13:47:20  <Terkhen> and then you can't see the output
13:47:30  <frosch123> if you right click the bat file in explored and check the properties, there might be an option to keep the console opened on exit
13:47:31  <Javis> what console?
13:48:35  <Javis> cant find that option
13:50:04  <Alberth> start -> run... -> "cmd" -> ENTER
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13:50:48  <Javis> i have cmd
13:51:05  <Alberth> "openttd.exe -D" -> ENTER
13:51:10  <Javis> is it something with the config?
13:51:50  <Alberth> likely, but without knowing why it stops, it's just random guessing
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13:54:33  <frosch123> well, try starting a non-dedicated server then
13:54:38  <frosch123> there you have a gui :)
13:55:07  <Javis> the dedicated server: map generation complete, starting game
13:55:26  <Javis> then: dedicated server could not be started, aborting
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14:00:10  <Javis> tried to start non-dedicated server...
14:00:26  <Javis> failed to start server..
14:01:07  <perk11> Javis: what's the error message?
14:01:22  <Javis> non-dedicated?
14:01:24  <perk11> where is this setting to see other companies' signs? I can't find it
14:01:54  <perk11> Javis: so?
14:02:22  <Javis> it says: could not start server.
14:03:26  <Terkhen> Javis: try openttd -D -d
14:03:45  <Terkhen> that should give us more info
14:04:09  <Javis> noop
14:04:17  <Javis> wont work..
14:04:38  <Terkhen> Javis: our problem here is "lack of information"
14:04:44  <Alberth> openttd.exe -d net=9
14:04:51  <Terkhen> please use that command and tell us what it says, otherwise we can't help you
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14:06:25  <Javis> im almost sure it is something with the cfg..
14:06:33  <Javis> or does it need editing?
14:06:38  <FLHerne> I keep getting Make Error 1 after sqvm finishes compiling :-( . Does anyone know where I should be looking?
14:06:47  <Alberth> perk11:  dropdown in the 3rd icon of the main toolbar
14:06:58  * FLHerne doesn't understand Makefiles etc well
14:07:01  <perk11> Alberth: thanks!
14:07:44  <Alberth> FLHerne: one or more lines up.  That line is just make saying something went wrong during the build
14:08:54  <perk11> FLHerne: yep, more info is required
14:09:23  <FLHerne> Well, no previous errors :-(
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14:09:28  <FLHerne> just: SRC] Compiling 3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqvm.cpp
14:09:28  <FLHerne> make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/francis/ottdsrc/qppb/objs/release'
14:09:28  <FLHerne> make: *** [all] Error 1
14:09:54  <Alberth> nice :)
14:10:08  <FLHerne> So for some reason I assume the makefile(s) is broken
14:10:19  * FLHerne is trying to combine patches again :P
14:11:02  <Alberth> you can try running "make reconfigure"
14:11:11  <perk11> FLHerne: it's strange, because "Leaving directory" means success
14:11:39  <Alberth> but we almost never touch the makefile, so it's unlikely to be broken
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14:11:49  <Terkhen> Javis: whatever the problem is, without the output we need we can't help you
14:12:05  <Terkhen> I'm not going to press the issue further, if you try to get that output later we can continue
14:13:18  <FLHerne> perk11: Might it be that it can't load whatever it thinks the next directory is?
14:13:28  * FLHerne tries 'make reconfigure'
14:14:36  <FLHerne> 'make reconfigure;make' gave me: make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/francis/ottdsrc/qppb/objs/extra_grf'
14:14:36  <FLHerne> make: *** [all] Error 1
14:15:05  <perk11> FLHerne: I guess there should be error message for that as well
14:15:12  <FLHerne> Oh, and more entering/leaving directories (nothing to be done) first
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14:15:39  <perk11> FLHerne: try make clean; ./configure; make
14:15:52  <FLHerne> Interesting that it moans after leaving a different directory...
14:15:55  * FLHerne tries
14:16:35  <FLHerne> I tried make clean before, actually
14:16:51  <FLHerne> ah, yes. Same problem (again)
14:16:57  <Alberth> make mrproper     cleans out everything (it's stronger than 'make clean')
14:17:24  * FLHerne tries that :P
14:17:49  <FLHerne> Same :-(
14:18:23  <FLHerne> Presumably one/more patches break something (or my incompetent merging :P )
14:18:50  <FLHerne> Does anyone know which files being messed up would cause such an error?
14:19:25  <Alberth> you could try checking the source.list file
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14:20:01  <FLHerne> oh, and compare it to the files that really exist?
14:20:17  <planetmaker> FLHerne: so... does unmodified openttd compile for you?
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14:20:25  <planetmaker> if you don't know: Please check that first
14:20:26  <FLHerne> Aye :-)
14:20:34  <perk11> I'd try something to make "make" output everything
14:20:35  <planetmaker> then you should know which patches you applied
14:20:43  <FLHerne> I do
14:20:57  <planetmaker> then you could read those patches and check them for suspicious hunks
14:20:57  <FLHerne> I just don't know which bit broke it :-(
14:21:09  <planetmaker> nor can we know without knowledge of the patches
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14:21:23  <FLHerne> Ok
14:21:24  <planetmaker> :-)
14:21:50  <FLHerne> I was just trying to narrow down which sections of patch could potentially cause the error
14:22:06  <planetmaker> those which deal with configure, config.lib etc
14:22:18  <FLHerne> Thanks :D
14:22:31  * FLHerne starts staring at code again
14:22:43  <planetmaker> read the diff files. They immediately tell you
14:22:49  <planetmaker> or... post the diff
14:22:56  <planetmaker> *paste
14:23:05  <FLHerne> Indeed
14:23:25  * FLHerne imagines thousands of lines of diff filling the channel :P
14:24:51  <frosch123> any changes outside of the "src" folder can break the makefile
14:25:15  <FLHerne> That narrows it down a lot...
14:26:14  <FLHerne> So projects/openttd_vs??.vcproj are the only non-src files changed
14:26:26  <frosch123> well, actually i meant the reverse as well :) changes inside "src" are unlikely to break make
14:26:47  <frosch123> FLHerne: those files are only used when building on windows
14:26:59  <frosch123> but if they are changed, source.list is likely changed as well
14:27:25  <planetmaker> and if not changed it might be the reason for the error ;-)
14:27:40  <FLHerne> Ok, will stare at that one very closely :D. Thanks
14:28:08  <FLHerne> Oh, yes, it is modified. Missed it before :P
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14:57:11  <FLHerne> Ah. If it adds a file that doesn't exist to source.list, that might be problematic :P
14:57:19  * FLHerne tries to fix it
14:57:40  <Alberth> perhaps an added file that was not included in the patch output?
14:57:55  <FLHerne> That's probably the case
14:58:04  <jstepien> ok, here's the savegame file's mtime patch for discussion:
14:58:23  * FLHerne looks for the files in question
14:58:30  <jstepien> it' based on the patch attached to
15:00:08  <jstepien> as for now it displays only the date and I guess that something like SCC_DATE_TIME_LONG or SCC_DATE_TIME_PRETTY should be necessary to display the time
15:00:34  <jstepien> time information is available in struct tm so we've got all data we need
15:00:54  <Terkhen> jstepien: for discussion it might be better to create a patch task on our bug tracker, that way it won't get lost and everyone can see it :)
15:01:27  <jstepien> Terkhen: sure, if that's the preferred way I'll do it
15:01:38  <Terkhen> that said, does it works on windows? "struct tm *mtime" looks like unix only to me
15:01:54  <jstepien> Terkhen:
15:02:10  <jstepien> windows seems to work fine with time.h
15:02:14  <Terkhen> ok :)
15:02:19  <jstepien> there's one problem though
15:02:27  <Alberth> should be, it's standard C :)
15:02:36  <jstepien> I've used localtime_r, which is POSIX but not windows
15:03:20  <jstepien> however folks at redmond had a sense of humour and added localtime_s which - if I understand correctly - does exactly the same thing as localtime_r
15:03:26  <jstepien> but with arguments swapped
15:04:10  * Terkhen wonders how is time handled in other parts of OpenTTD code
15:04:16  <Terkhen> I never had to touch that
15:04:18  <Terkhen> let's see
15:04:35  <jstepien> so I guess that for portability we'd need #define localtime_r(x,y) localtime_s(y,x)
15:04:47  <Alberth> not so much, I think, I am already surprised the file time exists
15:05:47  <jstepien> from what I've seen OpenTTD avoids dealing with time
15:06:24  <jstepien> there's Date everywhere
15:07:00  <Terkhen> I guess that if we had to deal with time before, it would have a definition on stdafx.h
15:07:15  <frosch123> we already have a method for getting the file date
15:07:19  <frosch123> the gui can sort for it
15:07:23  <Alberth> jstepien: that's game date :)
15:07:32  <jstepien> Alberth: ah, I see
15:07:35  <Alberth> frosch123: it needs wall-clock time
15:07:43  <frosch123> so, i think that code should be a single method instead of os specific ifdefs scattered all across the code :)
15:08:53  <jstepien> for save/load game gui, files' timestamps are read in fios.cpp:260
15:09:07  <jstepien> and that's the code I've used in the patch
15:09:22  <jstepien> extracting it to a separate function might be a good call
15:09:37  <frosch123> yeah, but please add a function for that, instead of using copy&paste for the ifdef part
15:10:49  <jstepien> frosch123: sure
15:12:42  <jstepien> frosch123: where should I put it? fios.cpp seems to be a bad place
15:13:27  <jstepien> fileio.cpp looks like generic file io handling - maybe there?
15:14:37  <frosch123> might be, i do not know that part that well :)
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15:38:04  <Eddi|zuHause> in the right light, my black cat looks very brown...
15:42:08  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Maybe it was replaced with an artificial spy cat by aliens :p
15:47:01  <frosch123> aliens replaced with aliens by aliens?
15:52:25  <Achilleshiel> complete logical :)
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16:14:15  <jstepien> I've attached my patch to the original bug report:
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17:35:39  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r24347 /trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt:
17:35:39  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:35:39  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
17:36:37  <Sacro> \o/
17:38:13  <Rubidium> good afternoon
17:54:07  <Rubidium> ugh... these american, or whatever they are called, plugs are worse than useless. My adaptor + euro connector keep falling from the socket
17:54:16  <Terkhen> hi Rubidium :)
17:54:23  <Rubidium> even american plugs are slipping out of the socket
17:59:37  <Terkhen> they don't look very stable :P
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18:06:59  <valhallasw> Rubidium: buy an extension cord
18:07:12  <valhallasw> Rubidium: then you can just put the adapter + sensible plug on the floor
18:07:27  <valhallasw> and then it's Rubidium-gravity 1-0
18:08:03  <Rubidium> valhallasw: if only the american plugs wouldn't fall from this socket as well, just slightly slower
18:10:48  <TrueBrain> duct-tape
18:10:51  <TrueBrain> it holds the world together
18:10:58  <TrueBrain> (and Minmatar ships, but that is another story on its own)
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19:01:29  <planetmaker> Hi Rubidium!
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20:25:31  <Terkhen> good night
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20:56:13  <frosch123> night
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21:11:33  <wizetmaplestory> hello
21:12:12  <wizetmaplestory> are any devs here
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21:15:30  <wizetmaplestory> does anyone know a dev
21:16:31  <__ln___> i know /dev/null
21:17:19  <wizetmaplestory> what?
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21:37:10  <planetmaker> @topic get -3
21:37:10  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
21:37:31  <planetmaker> ^ wizetmaplestory
21:38:29  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:42:43  <planetmaker> __ln___: sure you are not more familiar with /dev/random ? :-P
21:46:01  <planetmaker> wizetmaplestory: don't wait for anyone whom you think may know the answer to a question yet no-one knows except you. Just ask. Here are many knowledgable people
21:52:44  <wizetmaplestory> i just want to suggest something
21:55:01  <planetmaker> replace question by suggestion and everything said above also applies ;-)
21:56:06  <wizetmaplestory> although these people arnt devs and wont be able to say about it being possible to put in the trunk or etc.
21:56:58  <V453000> it isnt possible.
21:57:59  <planetmaker> devs are known to read this channel, you know...
21:58:30  <planetmaker> but indeed, unsuggested things are not possible. V is completely right
21:59:40  <planetmaker> besides... this channel also has a lot of knowledgable people who aren't devs but who know their way around the code well enough
22:00:10  <wizetmaplestory> though telling you guys wont be letting the devs know
22:00:44  <wizetmaplestory> and they cant do it if they dont know
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22:00:48  <planetmaker> ... V453000, can you slap me a bit? I must be ... in the wrong movie
22:00:48  <V453000> :D
22:01:01  <V453000> ridiculous isnt it
22:01:08  <planetmaker> very much so
22:01:38  <planetmaker> wizetmaplestory: did you ever compare the admins of this channel to the dev names?
22:01:53  <wizetmaplestory> no
22:02:00  <planetmaker> do that ;-)
22:02:06  <V453000> ^^ but wants to make suggestion
22:02:15  <wizetmaplestory> where are the admins?
22:02:28  <V453000> they have @ in start of the name
22:02:37  <planetmaker> and + in this case, too
22:02:41  <V453000> ah yes
22:02:41  <wizetmaplestory> none do
22:02:42  <planetmaker> they're just modest
22:02:54  <planetmaker> and the indication depends on your IRC client
22:03:01  <V453000> hm :)
22:03:05  <wizetmaplestory> im using chatzilla
22:03:16  <planetmaker> probably with a star or so
22:03:20  <V453000> I thought the chat window always has @, the user list stars etc
22:03:27  <planetmaker> anyway, we digress a lot.
22:03:44  <planetmaker> nah, they don't V453000 :-) But most IRC clients do use it
22:03:53  <wizetmaplestory> theres dark green lights for users and i dont know what the grey and light green stand for
22:03:55  <V453000> :)
22:04:09  <planetmaker> wizetmaplestory: grey and light green are mods
22:04:19  <wizetmaplestory> does devs also read chat logs
22:04:24  <planetmaker> they do
22:04:27  <wizetmaplestory> ok
22:04:32  <wizetmaplestory> anyways
22:04:33  <planetmaker> lalalala...
22:04:47  <wizetmaplestory> like of how Google bought YT
22:05:03  <wizetmaplestory> we should be able to buy companies without them being bankrupt
22:05:18  <wizetmaplestory> but of cource
22:05:20  <wizetmaplestory> course
22:05:29  <wizetmaplestory> the other would have to agree
22:05:29  <V453000> lol
22:05:53  <V453000> if the other agrees, they could just make their money below 0 for a few months
22:05:54  <V453000> done
22:05:58  <wizetmaplestory> and i have a reason for this which is also the reason why i thought of it
22:06:07  <planetmaker> well... sure that's feasible. But what V453000 says
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22:06:19  <planetmaker> just go into debt for 4 consecutive quarters
22:06:19  <wizetmaplestory> someone wants to me to join their company
22:06:31  <wizetmaplestory> but i dont want to leave my company
22:06:59  <planetmaker> though the debt version has issues. The 'best' company may buy first
22:07:09  <wizetmaplestory> yep
22:07:12  <planetmaker> which might not be the one you like
22:07:20  <V453000> yeah you have go have disciplined people on the server :)
22:07:38  <V453000> which we do. :)
22:07:47  <planetmaker> on the coop servers, yes
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22:08:41  <planetmaker> wizetmaplestory: yes, it's feasible to change that. But... enabling shares in MP is not a good idea
22:09:13  <planetmaker> they can be used to cheat money. Thus this is an option which rather should IMHO be implemented as "merge companies" which both companies simply have to agree.
22:09:17  *** DDR [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
22:09:20  <planetmaker> without any purchases involved
22:09:42  <planetmaker> and with the penalty that the worst town rating is taken for the newly formed company.
22:09:51  <planetmaker> worst of the two existing companies
22:09:51  <V453000> I guess that would have to be the result, just merge
22:10:54  <planetmaker> would fall in a similar area as to how to give money to other companies (which still works on a per player basis)
22:12:07  <planetmaker> and it IMHO would need (yet another) advanced setting so that it could be disabled server-side
22:12:17  *** tokai|noir [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:12:35  <planetmaker> and behold. you now got a dev's opinion on your suggestion.
22:12:58  <wizetmaplestory> also the possibility of buying rights to a building would be good
22:13:39  <V453000> actually an option to disable ability to buy companies even when bankrupt wouldnt hurt either
22:13:53  <V453000> usually the bought company is only a mess that the buyer only leaves rotting
22:13:56  <planetmaker> could be the same just then
22:13:59  <V453000> therefore just taking space
22:14:00  <V453000> yeah
22:14:16  <planetmaker> what kind of buildings, wizetmaplestory?
22:14:43  <wizetmaplestory> i mean like buy rights to a water pump so it'll only supply your stations
22:15:11  <planetmaker> it's called exclusive transport rights and those are issued by towns for all the cargo of their industries and their citizens
22:15:13  <V453000> sabotage tool no1 :D
22:15:49  <planetmaker> mind, it's a transport game. You don't own the cargo. You're only paid for the transport
22:16:12  <wizetmaplestory> i mean like companies buying rights for a single building (NOT a whole town)
22:16:21  <V453000> and imagine that you have been growing a town for 100 years, then someone comes and buys rights
22:17:28  <planetmaker> Well. Towns belong to you either ;-)
22:17:59  <planetmaker> wizetmaplestory: I'm afraid I'd not like the idea to get exclusive rights for a single industry :-)
22:18:09  <planetmaker> mostly for gameplay reasons
22:18:21  <planetmaker> and the added, unneeded complexity
22:18:43  <planetmaker> and in reality it's solved nicely by server rules which are maintained by the admins of the server
22:19:35  <wizetmaplestory> well obviously there'll be a limit of how many buildings you can buy rights for
22:19:45  <wizetmaplestory> maybe 3 or so
22:20:01  <wizetmaplestory> and pricy
22:20:21  <planetmaker> I don't really see a gameplay advantage
22:21:25  <planetmaker> especially, you can get somewhere close to that already by combining NewGRFs and game scripts. But that'd need a bit work in their authors end
22:21:46  <V453000> I think buying any rights for anything is just stupid and it mainly opens door for sabotage, while not bringing anything good. Normal people will respect each other and leave used industries/towns to the people who were there first
22:22:48  <planetmaker> Oh, I really think both views are equally valid, V453000, the competitive aggressive, the competitive friendly
22:23:00  <planetmaker> it's just a matter of what game you like to play
22:23:04  <V453000> sure
22:23:15  <planetmaker> I prefer the latter. you, too. But not all do
22:23:18  <V453000> but having an option to buy anything on the map for yourself is just silly
22:23:27  <wizetmaplestory> i just fucking hate it when someone leeches off of me and gets more cargo
22:23:49  <V453000> wizetmaplestory: he could also buy the rights so you get nothing
22:23:59  <wizetmaplestory> not if i do it first
22:24:02  <planetmaker> wizetmaplestory: well. Then you play on the wrong server. Play on a well moderated one with proper rules
22:24:22  <wizetmaplestory> which has no one online
22:24:33  <planetmaker> otherwise the person could just buy exclusive rights on your most valuable industry. And then?
22:24:46  <wizetmaplestory> you can use a different building
22:24:49  <planetmaker> It's an issue which has no technical solution. Social problems usually don't
22:25:43  <planetmaker> I can recommend the openttdcoop stable server ;-) There people won't steel from your industry. usually
22:25:48  <planetmaker> *steal
22:25:51  <planetmaker> not steel :-P
22:25:53  <V453000> there is a feature for social problems, it is called kick/ban :p
22:26:56  <xQR> <wizetmaplestory> not if i do it first <-- that's exactly the problem with all the "buying and owning" ideas
22:27:04  <xQR> at some point the game is degraded to a "who is first" battle
22:27:23  <xQR> "who secures the best resources first?", instead of "who can build the best rail network?"
22:27:47  <wizetmaplestory> like i said, limit
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22:27:50  <xQR> also you will play alone on the server - people join, see you have reserved all the good spots, leave
22:27:54  <xQR> happy single player
22:27:54  <xQR> ;)
22:28:20  <wizetmaplestory> obviously there will be a limit depending on server
22:28:36  <wizetmaplestory> some servers will have it disabled, some will only have 1 allowed
22:28:58  <planetmaker> wizetmaplestory: still. That won't add to gameplay really
22:29:15  <wizetmaplestory> only SOME fairness
22:29:26  <planetmaker> it's a social problem. And has no technical answer which will work. Fairness is only ensured by moderation
22:29:41  <wizetmaplestory> i hate it when people leech from me and they get more cargo
22:29:43  <planetmaker> whatever technical means you employ
22:29:59  <V453000> as planetmaker said.
22:30:03  <planetmaker> you said that. And I say. get a well moderated server. I'm sure xQR's one are that as well
22:30:25  <wizetmaplestory> problem is, only n-ice servers have people on
22:30:36  <wizetmaplestory> which are the servers im having the problems on
22:30:41  <planetmaker> totally not true ;-)
22:31:00  <wizetmaplestory> i mean server with really people on
22:31:01  <planetmaker>
22:31:21  <V453000> I believe there are some other servers with people on, but as you want .. :)
22:31:37  <wizetmaplestory> whenever i look at the servers, only the n-ice servers has more than 4 people on
22:31:49  <planetmaker> I look and see more servers ;-)
22:32:13  <wizetmaplestory> and BT-Pro is pretty much the same
22:32:25  <wizetmaplestory> only less people
22:32:27  <xQR> they allow claiming, don't they?
22:32:32  <wizetmaplestory> no
22:32:39  <wizetmaplestory> 100% same as n-ice servers
22:32:42  <xQR> they have copied the n-ice rules but made this one change, specifically for goods
22:32:43  <xQR> no
22:32:44  <planetmaker> xQR: yours are the n-ice?
22:32:48  <xQR> yep
22:32:54  <planetmaker> :-)
22:33:01  <xQR> i know Frank changed it
22:33:15  <xQR> because they got a lot of people with the same arguments like you
22:33:53  <wizetmaplestory> xQR, whats the difference of you and xOR
22:33:54  <V453000> I seriously dont understand how could anyone even dare to steal from a well-supplied factory of another player
22:34:02  <xQR> there is none
22:34:06  <xQR> xOR just wasn't free here
22:34:34  <planetmaker> :-)
22:34:44  <wizetmaplestory> V453000 probably  because the one person is just playing for fun and the other is playing just to be a douche
22:34:52  <wizetmaplestory> taking advantage of it
22:35:02  <xQR> V453000 so in real life you transport wood to a factory - that factory produces wooden toys from it
22:35:04  <planetmaker> wizetmaplestory: so it's a moderation issue. Report it and it will be dealt with
22:35:10  <xQR> now you automatically own those toys, right?
22:35:13  <xQR> not the factory, noooo
22:35:14  <V453000> yes but still I dinf it really very agressive and disrespectful
22:35:22  <wizetmaplestory> except that its allowed on n-ice servers
22:35:26  <V453000> xQR: real life isnt openttd
22:35:36  <planetmaker> wizetmaplestory: then play on the BT or the coop server
22:35:37  <xQR> yeah but then we should have flying trains
22:35:46  <wizetmaplestory> YES
22:35:49  <planetmaker> as they obviously allow claiming.
22:35:56  <V453000> should I take that as feature request for nuts xQR? :D
22:36:04  <xQR> or we try to keep a bit close to reality and don't have a transportation company own a factory only by transporting stuff there
22:36:19  <planetmaker> my words, xQR :-)
22:36:20  <xQR> the feature request from my side would rather be: make a delay for goods production of factories
22:36:24  <xQR> so it becomes clear
22:36:27  <wizetmaplestory> oh god i havnt seen a luukland server in forever
22:36:31  <xQR> the only reason why people think they automatically own the goods
22:36:34  <planetmaker> xQR: that's newgrf-able
22:36:42  <xQR> is that 1 crate appears at the same second you put 1 resource in
22:36:43  <wizetmaplestory> too bad i was mac banned for talking too much
22:37:01  <planetmaker> like stockpiling in ECS does that to some extend. Could be even made 'worse'
22:37:10  <planetmaker> *extent
22:37:17  <V453000> no the reason that people think they own the factory is because they care for it and supply it. And probably dont want anyone to come and get the reward of goods from them just cause.
22:37:46  <xQR> on our servers more than half of players who complain about a goods "stealer" don't have ever even transported their own goods
22:37:54  <xQR> they are just pissed that someone else makes profit from it
22:38:04  <xQR> it's really just an emotional thing most of the time
22:38:08  <xQR> and i don't understand why
22:38:17  <planetmaker> my precious!
22:38:20  <planetmaker> mine!
22:38:25  <xQR> :P
22:39:28  <planetmaker> people want security (my industry) and guidance (clear goals)
22:39:33  <V453000> well that is questionable but I guess they just didnt make it to set up the goods transport yet?
22:39:35  <planetmaker> Both OpenTTD does not offer by default
22:39:38  <xQR> also those stealers very rarely can compete with them in any other way, for the "factory owner" it's like a small itch but still they make a fuss about it as if their company was destroyed by it :P
22:39:45  <xQR> as i said, emotional, nothing else
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22:40:16  <xQR> i've seen a player who was at 99% of a 15 billion goal complaining about that one player getting goods from his factory at 1 spot
22:40:22  <xQR> a player which was at 5% of the goal
22:40:44  <planetmaker> he's competitive. It cost him probably 20k gc
22:40:50  <xQR> :P
22:40:56  <planetmaker> it's unfair. By his standards
22:41:00  <wizetmaplestory> or at least if a second or third or etc., person comes it
22:41:09  <wizetmaplestory> SPLIT THE CARGO EQUALLY
22:41:14  <planetmaker> wizetmaplestory: only two people get goods anyway.
22:41:22  <planetmaker> and not equally. That's what transport rating is for
22:41:24  *** DDR [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
22:41:29  <wizetmaplestory> but the seconds always gets more
22:41:34  <planetmaker> nope
22:41:38  <wizetmaplestory> even when i have the better rating
22:41:39  <planetmaker> just offer better service
22:41:47  <planetmaker> nope
22:41:56  <planetmaker> best station rating gets most
22:42:03  <planetmaker> 2nd best get 2nd most
22:42:06  <planetmaker> others get nothing
22:42:07  <xQR> wizetmaplestory you probably got fooled by the fact that station rating changes take a bit of time to become effective
22:42:08  <planetmaker> that's it
22:42:16  <wizetmaplestory> then the other person must of been hacking
22:42:19  <xQR> but it's like planetmaker said
22:42:24  <planetmaker> nope, wizetmaplestory
22:42:55  <wizetmaplestory> the ratings always showed i had a better rating but he got more
22:43:17  <planetmaker> it helps to have new vehicles. Have fast vehicles. Have frequently vehicles arrive. Have costant loading
22:43:38  <planetmaker> Maybe it only piled on his station due to bad service?
22:43:53  <planetmaker> doesn't mean he got more. Just that he transported rarely
22:44:08  <xQR> wizetmaplestory next time save the game and we count who really got more :P
22:44:11  <planetmaker> I have stations with 5% service rating and 20k coal
22:44:22  <wizetmaplestory> he was also loading the same train on two water pumps and more fequent loading
22:44:34  <planetmaker> then he had better rating than you
22:44:59  <wizetmaplestory> although the game showed otherwise
22:45:11  <planetmaker> but without savegame I must write-off your claim of it working differently than I just said as unfounded, I'm afraid
22:45:28  <wizetmaplestory> i hate arguing anyways
22:45:31  <planetmaker> show us with a savegame that you're right
22:45:59  <xQR> btw i don't agree that such a thing could be done by admin moderation - it would only lead to a lot of admin calls where both players state "i was first" and the admin has to find out
22:46:05  <xQR> this can become annoying really fast
22:46:46  <planetmaker> xQR: yes... agreed. Though that seems to happen hardly in my experience. And if it happens, logs usually helped us out quickly. or previous savegames
22:47:02  <planetmaker> happens like once a quarter or so on our server
22:47:06  <wizetmaplestory> at least i figured out how to become a millionaire finally
22:47:09  <xQR> you haven't seen a server with 17 active players, most of them not very experienced...
22:47:23  <planetmaker> well... I did ;-)
22:47:25  <xQR> sometimes there are calls every 5 minutes, and this is going on for hours
22:47:31  <xQR> about all kinds of stuff
22:47:45  <wizetmaplestory> you know what rustles my jimmies
22:47:57  <wizetmaplestory> when noobs put large jets on small airports
22:48:06  <planetmaker> But I quickly teach them to not call admins for things they don't need an admin for ;-)
22:48:31  <V453000> oh yes you dont want to call planetmaker without a reason :D
22:48:32  <xQR> sure but new players that haven't been taught this lesson pop out of nowhere every hour
22:48:34  <planetmaker> Especially to not "test" the !admin command just for fun :-P
22:48:46  <xQR> yeah we have the same story
22:48:52  <xQR> usually makes us "test" commands too
22:48:54  <xQR> like !kick
22:48:54  <xQR> :D
22:49:09  <planetmaker> why yeah... or !ban :-P
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22:49:38  <planetmaker> but ok. Not for first-time "testers" ;-)
22:49:40  <xQR> that would be a bit too hard, !tempban at maximum :P
22:50:27  <xQR> wizetmaplestory
22:50:28  <xQR> Competition is encouraged, but limited! You don't own cities but you CAN claim a factory, people can compete with you for any resources in a city BUT may NOT steal goods a factory produces with supplies from a competitor!
22:50:31  <xQR> the rules on BTPro
22:50:48  <xQR> that's the only part Frank has changed afaik
22:51:17  <wizetmaplestory> to me, seemed like the rules on BTpro seems the same as n-ice
22:51:26  <wizetmaplestory> except for the nobrk
22:51:35  <xQR> yeah because Frank is a lazy boy and just copied our rules :P
22:51:43  <xQR> but he has made some changes
22:51:55  <xQR> also i see they have a new "walk on water" rule now o0
22:52:17  <wizetmaplestory> yep
22:52:30  <wizetmaplestory> o.0
22:52:36  <xQR> and teleportation lol
22:52:38  <xQR> wtf is that
22:52:44  <wizetmaplestory> oh, not a irc style siliy
22:52:47  <wizetmaplestory> smily
22:52:48  <xQR> "Teleportation" is NOT allowed.
22:52:50  <wizetmaplestory> blah
22:52:54  <xQR> say what?
22:53:02  <xQR> don't beam me up, scotty!
22:53:08  <planetmaker> <-- maybe you like that, wizetmaplestory
22:53:28  <wizetmaplestory> and im having rail problems
22:53:59  <planetmaker> xQR: you don't know teleport? It's beaming cargo over (station-spread)*2 tiles :-)
22:54:11  <xQR> yeah i just read
22:54:27  <xQR> i knew it but when i heard the term teleportation didn't link it to what i knew
22:54:42  <xQR> "Servicing the same industry requires agreement of both players, although is not recommended." <-- what a good source for problems :P
22:54:46  <V453000> you might consider some poitns too strict but I insist on the fact that it creates a good environment for friendly play and doesnt limit nice people :)
22:55:11  *** LordPixaII [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:55:48  <xQR> yeah but such agreement things are a problem - what if someone agrees first but later when someone already relies on such connections pretty much withdraws his agreement?
22:56:38  <xQR> actually most servers without explicit rules work this way, people would have to agree on things by themselves
22:56:42  <xQR> but it's rarely working
22:56:44  <V453000> if you once agree you agree.
22:57:02  *** Devroush [] has quit []
22:57:06  <planetmaker> we could probably not prove that, though, V453000. That's the point.
22:57:07  <xQR> i still think such rules will work on openttdcoop as it is usually frequented by a bit more experienced players
22:57:14  <V453000> yeah I guess
22:57:20  <V453000> logs?
22:57:37  <xQR> but log checking is a tedious task
22:57:43  <xQR> especially if you run several servers
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22:58:14  <wizetmaplestory> WTF
22:58:17  <wizetmaplestory> YAPF sucks
22:58:30  <planetmaker> xQR: yes... though grepping for a user name makes it easy
22:58:32  <V453000> good way how to start discussion about yapf
22:58:42  <planetmaker> :-) indeed
22:58:46  <xQR> that depends on the logs you want to search
22:59:09  <xQR> on our servers admins can query the DoCommand logs of all players via IRC - sounds comfortable but it's often hundred thousand lines
22:59:15  <xQR> so you need to know what to search for
22:59:22  <wizetmaplestory> thats not a fucking 90 degree turn but my train isnt taking it
22:59:25  <xQR> e.g. specific tile coordinates of the spot where you want to see when someone built his station
22:59:58  <planetmaker> xQR: or the rought time
23:00:13  <planetmaker> *rough
23:00:24  <V453000> luckily I have to say I only solved such issue like once or twice
23:01:01  <xQR> i hear the "i was there first" thing several times a day - and i am always happy that my answer simply is "it doesn't matter, you're all allowed to compete"
23:01:08  <xQR> if i would have to find out every single time...
23:01:28  <planetmaker> <-- xQR
23:02:00  <planetmaker> feasible ;-) But not trunk. Sadly, if you ask me. Though one can do similar with admin port now
23:02:14  <xQR> which is what we're doing
23:02:16  <xQR> ;)
23:02:19  <planetmaker> :-)
23:02:32  <planetmaker> did you ever publish your admin port stuff?
23:02:37  <xQR> nope
23:02:42  <planetmaker> bah. sad
23:02:46  <planetmaker> why not?
23:04:19  <xQR> i was even crazy enough to translate most of the DoCommands, so our logs are like spoken text and not that rough
23:05:01  <xQR> [01:14:39] • <OTTD-2> <YardKing/3 (Dark Blue)> has started/stopped vehicle 13 - at 213x973 (0x79AD5)
23:05:01  <xQR> [01:14:41] • <OTTD-2> <YardKing/3 (Dark Blue)> has cloned a(n) train (wagon) with shared orders - at 218x974 (0x79CDA)
23:05:02  <xQR> [01:14:42] • <OTTD-2> <YardKing/3 (Dark Blue)> has skipped vehicle 13 to order 1 - at 217x973 (0x79AD9)
23:05:04  <xQR> and so on
23:05:26  <xQR> you can also have it relayed to you over IRC live
23:05:32  <xQR> to "watch" someone
23:05:46  <planetmaker> why is it not public and open source?
23:06:07  <xQR> power :D
23:06:22  <xQR>
23:06:23  <planetmaker> should we close-source and sell OpenTTD?
23:06:29  <planetmaker> and require licenses?
23:06:36  <xQR> i'd buy it, definitely :P
23:07:09  <planetmaker> well. It really saddens me.
23:07:28  <planetmaker> As I don't get it. We work for free. For everyone to join. And see. And improve
23:07:52  <planetmaker> why is that not honoured mutually?
23:08:39  <xQR> tbh i think OpenTTD is JUST big enough - a bit smaller and you simply wouldn't find enough contributors to gain the smallest benefit from open source
23:08:51  <xQR> i have posted a request for xShunter testers on the forum but response was really low
23:09:12  <planetmaker> you don't publish it for everyone to test, did you?
23:09:13  <xQR> it wouldn't be like OpenTTD, a big community of people helping each other
23:09:52  <planetmaker> asking people to "apply" for testing... usually reduces publicity to 1% or so
23:09:52  <xQR> no, but i will, it just has some instabilities i want to fix first
23:10:32  <planetmaker> tbh, I'd never do that. Even where I'm interested. As I despise that practise frankly speaking
23:11:15  <planetmaker> "fixing first" is always an argument. But you get often way more feedback when you allow public review. Instead of only people whom you asked or who asked you
23:11:17  <xQR> i know and take that into account - but as long as the 1% gives me enough input and shows me that there are still some bigger issues to solve
23:11:46  <planetmaker> *sigh*
23:12:11  <xQR> right now i don't want more feedback, i get more than i can process :P
23:12:29  <planetmaker>,_release_often
23:12:46  <xQR> i know all those arguments ;)
23:13:32  <planetmaker> yeah... you're right. We should not have these "discussions"
23:13:46  <planetmaker> they only sadden me... more and more... demotivating
23:14:30  <planetmaker> maybe I should use agpl for everything
23:14:47  <xQR> i just think that can be better applied to bigger projects - i have done the open source short release cycle thingy for that counter strike plugin
23:14:55  <xQR> it was running on 2500 servers worldwide
23:15:02  <wizetmaplestory> CS plugin?
23:15:03  <xQR> guess how much help i got from the community
23:15:13  <planetmaker> none
23:15:17  <xQR> in 4 years or so there was 1 person
23:15:22  <xQR> who contributed 5 lines of code
23:15:33  <xQR> which were written so badly i threw them away as they were
23:15:34  <planetmaker> but so?
23:15:38  <xQR> and implemented the same feature with my own code
23:16:07  <planetmaker> what's the point you try to make with this?
23:16:20  *** HootzMcToke [] has joined #openttd
23:17:26  <xQR> i just don't see the benefit from a public OSS release right now
23:17:39  <planetmaker> is there harm?
23:17:51  <xQR> btw it isn't even completely true that it's closed source
23:17:58  <xQR> because most of the features today are written in plugins
23:18:12  <xQR> and these plugins are always in source code
23:18:22  <xQR> you can even change the code while xShunter is running
23:18:29  <xQR> so i can add game features without restarting anything
23:18:33  <xQR> or fix bugs
23:19:22  <planetmaker> so your only argument against an OSS release is "I don't see the point" and the implicit fear of "no-one will care"?
23:19:28  <xQR> harm? actually no, i wanted to release but i was asked by other users not do it, so they could keep their advantage over other communities
23:19:32  <xQR> :P
23:19:37  <planetmaker> rather the latter than the first?
23:19:44  <xQR> and i was like *shrug* and still do private releases
23:19:46  <xQR> :P
23:19:57  <planetmaker> ach...
23:21:07  <planetmaker> How petty
23:21:55  <Mazur> Yes, that's exactly how for instance science gets all those breakthroughs.
23:22:27  <xQR> now where did science get into my little hobby project i do for my own fun?
23:22:51  <Mazur> As an example of the benefit of openly sharing.
23:23:33  *** TWerkhoven [] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into]
23:24:55  <xQR> as i said, i haven't seen such benefit being there for small projects
23:25:00  <xQR> and even OpenTTD is quite small
23:25:20  *** paks2 [~paksdm@] has joined #openttd
23:25:25  <planetmaker> I'm really really saddened over and over. Where I look, NewGRFs, obviously also admin port, it's all like "I want my stuff, no-one change it, no-one look at it"
23:25:43  <planetmaker> where's our open and friendly community? Where is that sustainable?
23:26:30  <planetmaker> why are people like that while they play a game which works just the revers, where everything is open, everyone can contribute, everyone can use play and modify for free?
23:26:53  <planetmaker> I really, really, don#t get it...
23:27:16  *** roadt [~roadt@] has joined #openttd
23:27:23  <paks2> hey folks :)
23:27:44  <xQR> it doesn't have to do much with the game though, more with what you are used to as a programmer
23:27:45  <planetmaker> probably it applies also to game scripts
23:27:48  <planetmaker> hi paks2
23:28:03  <planetmaker> it has to do all with the game, xQR
23:28:05  <xQR> i have learned most of programming things in business, so within a company
23:28:19  <xQR> so i am used to work in small teams of fixed persons
23:28:27  <xQR> so that's how i like to work
23:28:48  <planetmaker> so you can. so all do. And?
23:29:07  <planetmaker> that's all no argument for the "mine, no-one see, no-one share, no-one modify"
23:29:14  <xQR> the "what if everyone would do it?" argument is a very weak one
23:29:24  <planetmaker> ?
23:29:38  <planetmaker> simple answer is: we'd have no game
23:29:40  <planetmaker> simple
23:29:48  <paks2> any openttd editor users out there who can provide me with a quick pointer please? (sorry if I'm butting in here...)
23:29:58  <planetmaker> @topic get -3
23:29:58  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
23:30:47  <paks2> i cant find how to change the track parameters in the editor - help please?
23:30:57  <planetmaker> what's a "track parameter"?
23:31:11  <wizetmaplestory> i have a question
23:31:20  <paks2> track type - electric/monorail/etc...
23:31:25  <wizetmaplestory> why are there heliports before air?
23:31:57  <planetmaker> track type is a drop down menu. click and hold the track button in the main toolbar
23:32:09  <wizetmaplestory> i got a question
23:32:23  <paks2> that's my problem - the button is not there...
23:32:38  <planetmaker> you mean in the scenario editor?
23:32:49  <planetmaker> the SE doesn't allow track placement
23:32:50  <paks2> i have road and water but no rail in the scenario editor
23:32:53  <wizetmaplestory> is there someone that can awnser my question
23:33:12  <planetmaker> the SE doesn't allow to build company property
23:33:36  <paks2> i'm not looking to lay track - just specify what types of track can be built
23:33:45  <wizetmaplestory> now can someone awnser my question
23:33:54  <planetmaker> you can circumvent that, paks2, by loading the scenario as game, cheat money, build what you want, save game. Rename to scn file. And continue editing in SE
23:34:07  <paks2> kk - will try
23:34:10  <planetmaker> ah. Well. Always all. It depends on the year
23:34:19  <planetmaker> and of course on the NewGRFs you chose
23:34:29  <paks2> thanks much (1900 with a monorail...^^)
23:34:29  <wizetmaplestory> now can someone awnser my question
23:34:29  <planetmaker> wizetmaplestory: learn some patience
23:34:51  <wizetmaplestory> wtf, 1900 with monrails?
23:34:54  <planetmaker> paks2: that won't happen. It's introduced in... 1980s or so
23:35:11  <wizetmaplestory> i wish we had that tech in the civil wr
23:35:14  <wizetmaplestory> war'
23:35:18  <paks2> that's why i'mtrying to chang it ...
23:35:25  <planetmaker> you won't even have rail vehicles in 1900 with the default game. Actually no vehicles at all
23:35:26  <wizetmaplestory> and jets in WWII
23:35:51  <xQR> planetmaker "mine, no-one see, no-one share, no-one modify" <-- that's not my philosophy, though
23:36:06  <planetmaker> xQR: you exercise it, though
23:36:07  <xQR> i just don't make such a fuss about publishing the code somewhere
23:36:16  <xQR> because it also means work
23:36:21  <xQR> you have to provide the download somewhere
23:36:23  <xQR> documentation
23:36:26  <xQR> answer questions
23:36:31  <wizetmaplestory> now can someone awnser my question
23:36:39  <wizetmaplestory> damn i forgot it now
23:36:41  <paks2> thanks & adios folks
23:36:45  <wizetmaplestory> oh now i remember
23:36:46  *** paks2 [~paksdm@] has quit [Quit: paks2]
23:36:46  <planetmaker> I offer you free repository and free download, xqr
23:36:47  <xQR> you open the doors for many people that don't know how to properly report bugs anyway
23:37:11  <xQR> it's not about such resources, i have space and traffic and an SVN server etc.
23:37:15  <planetmaker> free issue tracker, free release builds
23:37:19  <xQR> it's about time
23:37:37  <xQR> and lots of distraction
23:37:48  <xQR> and only 1% of it being really helpful and qualified
23:38:06  <Rubidium> yup, about time to join this channel ;)
23:38:07  <wizetmaplestory> now can someone awnser my question
23:38:07  <xQR> all others are like "meh why don't we allow 5 million players on the server? here i have made you a patch..."
23:38:14  <planetmaker> hi Rubidium
23:38:25  <wizetmaplestory> hi nuclear material
23:38:46  <planetmaker> Rb is not radioactive. It's quite inert
23:38:48  <xQR> Rubidium i am too drunk to code, so i thought i'd just chat a bit until i am tired enough for sleep :P
23:39:02  <xQR> wizetmaplestory is at fault for getting me here
23:39:03  <xQR> :P
23:39:27  <xQR> about his "players need to be able to claim everything" proposal
23:39:32  <wizetmaplestory> though this isnt the name i should be using actually
23:39:40  <wizetmaplestory> once again, not ecerything
23:39:50  <wizetmaplestory> there would obviously be a limit
23:39:53  <xQR> i was simplifying :P
23:39:59  <wizetmaplestory> LIMITS
23:40:07  *** wizetmaplestory is now known as TACOS
23:40:13  <xQR> about his "players need to be able to claim everything WITHIN LIMITS" proposal
23:40:14  <xQR> better?
23:40:16  <xQR> :>
23:40:30  <TACOS> sort of
23:40:47  <TACOS> like maybe 1 or so, and not cities
23:41:01  <TACOS> but maybe shopping malls
23:41:29  <TACOS> and my company merge porposal
23:41:32  <TACOS> proposal
23:41:59  <TACOS> and why the FUCK do heliports exist when theres no air yet
23:42:01  *** Elukka [] has quit []
23:42:33  <xQR> you can go there, sit at the airport bar and drink beer that costs 5 times more than normal
23:42:39  <xQR> how would you do that without an airport?
23:42:40  <xQR> or heliport
23:42:54  <TACOS> lol
23:43:00  <planetmaker> one can also say it's made for you to wonder about
23:43:06  <xQR> and that!
23:43:08  <xQR> :)
23:43:11  <planetmaker> to test your attention
23:43:20  <planetmaker> to details
23:43:26  <xQR> ssshht planetmaker, you can take it out now, someone finally noticed it
23:43:29  <planetmaker> and your self-control
23:43:32  <xQR> after 5 years
23:43:37  <TACOS> YAY
23:43:42  <planetmaker> oh damn. I guess it became standard
23:43:46  <xQR> :/
23:44:04  <TACOS> i figured out OpenTTDs biggest Easter Egg
23:44:29  <TACOS> sadly, yogscast figured out Minecraft's biggest E egg
23:44:33  <xQR> i think now i am tired enough, time for shower and bed
23:45:10  <TACOS> 7;54 PM EST
23:45:23  <TACOS> aw fuck mosquetos
23:45:29  <xQR> [01:55:00] • <TACOS> 7;54 PM EST
23:45:31  <xQR> not quite
23:45:49  <TACOS> well now its 7:55 PM EST
23:46:05  <planetmaker> mind your language...
23:46:14  <Rubidium> xQR: I'd say wizetmaplestory has a far point under the circumstance the limit is <= 0 ;)
23:46:21  <xQR> :)
23:46:52  <xQR> planetmaker before i leave: maybe it pleases you a bit when i tell you that my plan is (and has always been) to eventually release it open source - i just want to get some instabilities out first
23:46:54  <TACOS> i did get mac banned from luukland servers for talking too much
23:46:58  <Rubidium> TACOS: probably because the setting "allow building infrastructure before there are vehicles for it" is on
23:47:04  <xQR> and obviously i have to handle 524 warning messages about missing documentation
23:47:12  <Rubidium> TACOS: unlikely you got mac banned
23:47:13  <planetmaker> TACOS: not too much. But probably too vulgar
23:47:28  <xQR> considering the fact that i started at 800+ it's not even that bad, i haven't been THAT lazy
23:47:29  <TACOS> but i wasnt talking vulgar
23:47:38  <Rubidium> TACOS: unless you're at luukland's local network, but then you must be a real good friend and I would've just kicked you off that network
23:47:51  <TACOS> an admin even said 200 lines more and im banned
23:48:17  <planetmaker> *shrug*
23:48:23  <xQR> gn8
23:48:28  <planetmaker> night
23:48:36  <Rubidium> evening planetmaker ;)
23:48:46  <planetmaker> :-) "evening"
23:48:48  <Rubidium> oh, or evening xQR... maybe
23:48:53  <planetmaker> hm, for you yes
23:49:00  <TACOS> im hungry
23:49:12  <Rubidium> then go to Tims or so
23:49:32  <TACOS> what if i cant and theres nothing to eat at home
23:49:35  <xQR> [01:58:55] • OTTD-5 ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED! Player TACOS has earned achievement: Identity Crisis
23:49:43  <xQR> just to let you know who you are talking to
23:49:45  <xQR> be careful :P
23:50:14  <xQR> in case you don't know who you are talking to - he doesn't know either :D
23:50:41  <TACOS> LOL
23:50:54  <Rubidium> TACOS: catch mosquitos and eat them
23:50:57  <TACOS> and i found it in the IRC channel
23:51:09  <TACOS> one thing is, i never catch the mosquetos
23:51:25  <TACOS> imma make a microwave burrito
23:52:16  <Rubidium> yuck... microwave food
23:54:02  <TACOS> better than air
23:55:02  <TACOS> shit im sweating
23:55:26  <TACOS> why did the A/C have to catch on fire --
23:55:32  <TACOS> -.-
23:55:48  <TACOS> dont ask
23:56:15  <Rubidium> gosh... were you a tour guide this morning on a Toronto tour bus?
23:56:57  <Rubidium> if so, hi Morgan, and that's for making it a quiz why something was the way it is and always having the answer "because a fire"

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