Log for #openttd on 7th July 2012:
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02:01:08  <DDR> I'm back, and I come bearing gifts.
02:01:19  <DDR> Well, a gift. A link!
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02:02:48  <DDR> bbl, dinner.
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06:22:29  <andythenorth> hi
06:23:31  <frosch123> hola
06:28:20  * andythenorth contempates a frosch246
06:29:03  <andythenorth> * contemplates
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06:38:49  <frosch123> morning albert
06:38:55  <Alberth> moin
06:50:45  <planetmaker> moin
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06:52:07  <Terkhen> good morning
06:53:34  <Wakou> Hi folks
06:53:39  <Alberth> hi
06:54:06  <Wakou> Do newgrfs auto-update if there is a new version?
06:54:24  <Alberth> no, openttd does not phone home unless you tell it to
06:54:43  <Terkhen> as long as the author uploads the updated version to the online content and you click on "update all content", they will update
06:54:46  <Alberth> also, in running games, updating newgrfs is not possible
06:55:04  <Alberth> you you can use newer versions only in a new game
06:55:30  <Wakou> So if one of you clever types is working on say 32pp  graphics, how do I get them?
06:55:58  <andythenorth> is new FISH done yet?
06:56:27  <Alberth> download the newgrf, install it from the intro menu, and start a new game, would be the way
06:56:39  <Terkhen> andythenorth: andythenorth is the person who develops FISH, give him a highlight and he'll answer you when he's not busy
06:57:08  <Alberth> hi andy, he was shipping stuff, but it seemed not fishy
06:57:08  <planetmaker> :-)
06:59:02  <Alberth> Wakou: normally, new releases are also posted in the forum
06:59:17  * andythenorth wonders if it's ok to bug andythenorth about FISH
07:01:04  <Alberth> he's a friendly chap, just tends to wander off every now and then to take care of RL stuff
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07:01:34  * andythenorth wonders where the baby is going
07:01:42  <andythenorth> he can only crawl backwards right now
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07:02:06  <andythenorth> think he's getting stuck behind a door
07:02:06  <Alberth> you should learn him to switch gears :)
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07:02:53  <Alberth> teach, even :)
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07:10:42  <Wolf01> morning o/
07:11:15  <dihedral> good morning
07:12:14  <Terkhen> good morning dihedral and Wolf01
07:14:29  <dihedral> I have been thinking about FS #4632 and the more I look at it, the more I come to the conclusion not to change it :-P
07:15:51  <Alberth> the problem was querying company money?
07:16:00  <dihedral> company value
07:16:56  <dihedral> I was trying to find a suitable place in the CompanyMonthlyLoop when looping over all companies is done already anyway, in order to call c.cur_economy.company_value = CalculateCompanyValue(c);
07:17:34  <dihedral> and use c.cur_economy.company_value then also in the output of the console command, and provide access to the value to the game scripts
07:18:04  <dihedral> but then the performance field of cur_economy would need updating also
07:19:03  <Alberth> ah, yes, I was wondering whether  a script could get it, as it can become a company, but not, apparently
07:19:43  <dihedral> the only other place where the value is realtime, is in the company details window on the client side
07:20:11  <Wakou> Alberth, sorry to be an idiot, but I have eg
07:20:13  <Alberth> people should use a web cam :)
07:20:23  <Wakou> All seem to be empty files?
07:20:28  <dihedral> Alberth, LOL
07:20:48  <Alberth> Wakou: seems that way
07:21:08  <Wakou> So my r691 is the last working one?
07:21:18  <Terkhen> Wakou: you might want to ask at the OpenGFX+ Trains thread
07:21:28  * Terkhen does not know which one work and which one does not
07:21:41  <Wakou> Terkhen: Alberth TY
07:21:45  <Alberth> Wakou: r691 rings a bell with me
07:22:00  <Alberth> There are some problems w.r.t. storage at the site
07:22:11  <Terkhen> but if we judge from file size... yes, r691 looks more correct than newer ones
07:23:56  <Terkhen> Wakou: I remember something about a backup server holding newer nightlies; if I'm not misremembering the link should be at the forum thread
07:23:59  <Alberth>  <-- Wakou
07:25:58  <Wakou> Alberth: TY..
07:27:06  <Alberth> iirc, you may also want to investigate the new eGRVTS, it was also updated with 32bpp I think
07:27:51  <Alberth> or at least, there were discussions about it, and it got resolved :)
07:28:20  <Wakou> I have asked before, but in case other people are here, is there a way, (CLI option?) to disable the sounds at the 'splash screen' stage.. or even 'pause' the splash screen?
07:29:36  <Alberth> not possible afaik
07:33:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: you know what would be useful? if you could comment a revision directly (e.g. have a button to create a ticket for this revision)
07:34:19  <dihedral> and link it back to the view of the revision :-P
07:34:42  <dihedral> i.e. this revision has following tickets :-P
07:43:06  <Eddi|zuHause> well, that is already possible (if there is already a ticket, you can link the revision to it)
07:44:48  <Eddi|zuHause> (by giving the ticket number in the commit message)
07:47:50  <dihedral> uh - ah, ok :)
07:48:25  <planetmaker> Fix #4302 (r234): Fixed stuff
07:50:39  <Eddi|zuHause> there's also a variant where you don't close the ticket, but i forgot which keywords to use there
07:50:50  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I activated the module "code reviews" now with CETS. Now browse the repo and find in the far right the possibility to open a review for that particular file and revision
07:51:11  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: thanks, will check it out later
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07:54:18  <planetmaker> wrt closing: A commit message starting with either of "fixes,closes,fix,close,bug,fixed" closes
07:54:41  <planetmaker> a commit message with either of "refs,references,Issue,add,updated,part of,part,*" references (thus anything which reads like rXXX)
07:55:10  <planetmaker> uhm... not rXXX but #XXX
07:55:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the trac plugin that i once used allowed things like (fix #AAA, ref #BBB) where it closes one ticket and leaves open the other
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07:56:13  <planetmaker> that might not be feasible here now
07:56:20  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if this one does that
07:56:22  <planetmaker> but I didn't try
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08:03:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember the documentation saying it did not
08:03:29  <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm really not sure
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08:14:11  <andythenorth> ho
08:14:14  <andythenorth> special cases :P
08:14:28  <andythenorth> "special cases will be the death of your nice framework"
08:19:54  <andythenorth> why did I make hydrofoils lift out of the water when they are at speed? :P
08:20:02  <andythenorth> that's a whole extra template :P
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08:25:53  <cmircea> is TrueBrain around?
08:26:24  <cmircea> !seen TrueBrain
08:26:30  <Rubidium> he's like Shroedinger's cat
08:26:33  <cmircea> hmm
08:26:45  <cmircea> bot commands start with?
08:27:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: he's either here or not here, but every time you actively look for him, he's gone?
08:27:37  <Rubidium> basically, yes ;)
08:27:45  <Alberth> cmircea: the last time he said something is not much of an indiaction whether he is around
08:27:52  <cmircea> Alberth, true
08:28:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but if it's several weeks or months ago, it might indicate rather not :(
08:28:29  <Rubidium> also, it's a meta question for the real question you wanted to ask
08:28:49  <Eddi|zuHause> well, this is also a metadiscussion :)
08:28:57  <Alberth> yeah, if you want something of him, just state what you want, and then wait
08:29:02  <Eddi|zuHause> so he got what he asked for :)
08:29:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i just read "and then quit" :p
08:30:34  <cmircea> Alberth, TrueBrain, well this:
08:31:14  <Alberth> andythenorth: ^ you involved in this too?
08:32:02  <andythenorth> yes / not really
08:32:28  <Alberth> cmircea: in general, it is much better to ask in general, then just for a single person, unless you KNOW he's the only one that can give you answers
08:32:43  <cmircea> Alberth, I asked on the forums, just wanted to point him to that.
08:32:52  <andythenorth> he was around yesterday or so
08:33:01  <andythenorth> he'll be here when he wants to be here ;)  And otherwise not
08:33:10  <Rubidium> well, two main things:
08:33:33  <Rubidium> #1 we run our own server, so I see no need to use other external services to run a part of our website
08:34:09  <Rubidium> #2 the server doesn't run Windows, so Microsoft technology might not be that well supported (if supported at all)
08:34:19  <cmircea> Rubidium, Mono.
08:34:24  <Rubidium> and then some minor thing:
08:34:57  <Rubidium> #3 you need to implement the 'look' of the website again, thus significantly increasing the amount of work
08:35:22  <Rubidium> #4 currently it's implemented in django and I think it will stay that way in the forseeable future
08:35:35  <cmircea> Rubidium, TB hinted that the current design is terrible and should be changed though.
08:36:07  <cmircea> Rubidium, fair points though. Mono does run MVC 3 web apps just fine though.
08:36:10  <Eddi|zuHause> "design" might have referred to the code, not the visual stuff
08:36:12  <Rubidium> cmircea: yes, so an ill designed .NET application must be written in something else?
08:36:21  <Rubidium> s/written/rewritten/
08:36:29  <Rubidium> (for it to become well designed)
08:36:41  <cmircea> Eddi|zuHause, no, the look: "For night and year BaNaNaS has a frontend. It is ugly. It is terrible. I have seen all kind of words describing it, most my own. Sadly, I am not a designer, nor do I pretend to be one"
08:36:50  <cmircea> Rubidium, not really, but it was an offer.
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08:37:13  <andythenorth> TB said it would stay in Django
08:37:17  <andythenorth> I asked him
08:37:23  <andythenorth> means I have to learn Django :P
08:37:32  <Rubidium> cmircea: reading that quote, the main thing TB seems to be asking for is the (user interface) design
08:37:41  <cmircea> Yeah I know.
08:38:22  * andythenorth wtfs at something local
08:38:45  <andythenorth> ah
08:38:52  * Rubidium wonders whether that's actual (baby) shit hitting an actual fan ;)
08:38:53  <andythenorth> numbers cannot be identifiers in nml :P
08:39:21  <Alberth> they are already used as numbers :)
08:40:00  <andythenorth> how droll :P
08:41:11  <cmircea> Rubidium, but yeah, BaNaNaS needs significant changes. Right now I don't see it as more than a directory on steroids.
08:41:23  <cmircea> Usable... but not great.
08:41:48  * andythenorth deliberately breaks the nml sprite templates :P
08:41:55  <Alberth> start with a design of the UI?
08:42:08  * Alberth gives andythenorth some glue
08:42:24  <andythenorth> ugh
08:42:30  <andythenorth> don't start with ui design ;)
08:42:38  <andythenorth> what the entities in play?
08:42:44  <andythenorth> what workflows must be supported?
08:42:50  <andythenorth> workflow / fun :P
08:43:01  <Alberth> that's not design?
08:43:09  <andythenorth> it is to me :)
08:43:26  <Alberth> I fully agree with that :)
08:43:28  * andythenorth causes nml assertions
08:43:45  <Alberth> NML bugs!
08:43:51  <andythenorth> my fault
08:44:03  <NGC3982>
08:44:21  <Alberth> it's still a bug, as NML should not assert, but give you an error message
08:46:46  <andythenorth> yeah, it's not making debugging easy :)
08:46:49  <andythenorth>
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08:47:01  <andythenorth> kind of stumped right now
08:50:56  <Alberth> add a   print repr(string_id) just above the assert
08:51:59  <Alberth> isn't there an option to dump the stack trace?
08:53:00  <Alberth> yes, add  an -s option (--stack)
08:53:40  <andythenorth> ok so it was missing strings
08:53:56  <andythenorth> not sure how to patch nml correctly to warn of that
08:54:09  <Hirundo> Just file a bug report
08:54:27  <Alberth> can you make an example spec?
08:54:43  <Hirundo> And of course, thou shalt not have missing strings
08:54:55  <andythenorth> I can post instructions on how to reproduce :P
08:55:14  <Alberth> "hire andy for testing" :D
08:55:41  <andythenorth> feel like I should patch nml for this, but I only have 2-3 mins at a time for coding
08:55:45  <andythenorth> then I get interrupted
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09:00:17  <Alberth> given there is an assert here, there should be a check before somewhere to catch your case.
09:02:55  <andythenorth> something like: if not string_id in blah raise foo
09:02:59  <andythenorth> or similar
09:03:00  <andythenorth> ?
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09:05:48  <Alberth> like I said, your case is not expected to get there, and should have been caught somewhere before
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09:06:26  <Alberth> ie assert x   means  "we really don't expect x to ever fail"
09:07:19  <andythenorth> hmm, cropped ships in the buy menu doesn't look brilliant
09:07:27  <andythenorth> nvm, it is what it is
09:08:36  <Alberth> sounds like a tricky problem, in essence you want a small version of your ship
09:09:02  <andythenorth> paddle steamer:
09:09:12  <andythenorth> scaled looks bad, that's been tried before
09:09:18  <andythenorth> cropped is better
09:09:37  <andythenorth> but some of the crops will look odd because they'll show only hull, no cabin etc
09:10:00  <andythenorth> the alternative is to patch nml for setx
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09:13:04  <Hirundo> Such a patch will only be accepted iff OpenTTD considers it the right thing (tm) to do
09:13:26  <andythenorth> it has to, it's in the newgrf spec ;)
09:13:32  <Hirundo> no
09:13:45  <andythenorth> this newgrf spec thing is quite variable isn't it :)
09:13:49  <Hirundo> newgrf spec allows overwriting action bytes with action6, doesn't mean we have to support that
09:13:56  <andythenorth> some things may never be changed lest they break old grfs
09:13:59  <andythenorth> other things may be :P
09:15:58  <andythenorth> currently lack of setx 'blocks' porting FISH to nml
09:16:09  <andythenorth> except I don't think I actually care ;)
09:16:57  <Hirundo> Alberth: Is setx actually the recommended way of doing buy menu offsets?
09:17:31  <Alberth> not in my book
09:17:50  <Alberth> but I am not sure what to do
09:18:27  <Alberth> eg is it OK to allow newgrf authors to provide a 600 pixel sprite in the buy menu?
09:18:32  <andythenorth> no
09:18:37  <andythenorth> setx is a bad and silly feature
09:18:48  <andythenorth> it gives the buy menu a ragged edge that I dislike
09:19:01  <andythenorth> newgrf authors should crop
09:19:15  <andythenorth> and they should consider the wisdom of providing sprites that are too big
09:19:16  <Alberth> so I think you have to set some fixed limit
09:19:41  <Alberth> where 70? pixels seems as good as any
09:19:49  <andythenorth> 70px is fine
09:19:55  <andythenorth> "sprite doesn't fit the buy menu" -> your sprite is too big, reconsider your grf
09:20:37  <Alberth> the other option is to move texts after checking the sprite sizes, but you still need some sane upper limit imho
09:20:48  <andythenorth> 70px ;)
09:21:06  <andythenorth> the oversized sprites in FISH cause other problems, e.g. flickering in game, overlapping scenery etc
09:21:23  <andythenorth> being too big for the buy menu indicates they are realy a bad idea
09:21:28  <andythenorth> *really
09:21:29  <Alberth> in which case you may as well put the text there always, which returns you to the fixed size solution
09:21:31  <frosch123> someone also suggested to draw the selected engine image below the list in the details
09:21:47  <andythenorth> uses too much vertical space
09:21:58  <planetmaker> below as in the z-axis. text on top?
09:22:12  <andythenorth> oh that was FooBar's request
09:22:17  <planetmaker> hm.. also ambiguous. Written over
09:22:19  <andythenorth> I was thinking below in the y plane
09:22:49  <Alberth> and as 70px is as good as any, the only thing left to do seems to remove the setx support in the buy menu
09:22:53  <andythenorth> yup
09:22:57  <andythenorth> and wait for complaints
09:23:23  <planetmaker> you know... there's no course of action which won't cause complaints
09:23:57  <Alberth> I rather set a recommendation in the newgrf spec and have newgrf authors refrain from using setx hacks
09:24:05  <andythenorth> I like remove setx, it's a good measure of how much people care
09:24:25  <andythenorth> complaints = conversation = interesting
09:24:54  <planetmaker> It was only left as it broke buy menus of some NewGRFs iirc
09:25:00  <Alberth> it's not worth a big fight imho
09:25:24  <planetmaker> but I don't recall which. Most likely 2ccTS and some CanSet
09:25:32  <planetmaker> no, it's not worth it
09:25:32  <andythenorth> and FISH
09:25:38  <planetmaker> :-)
09:26:12  <planetmaker> But FISH has an author who involves himself constructively in discussions and puts moaning aside even when he doesn't like the outcome too much ;-)
09:26:45  <andythenorth> breaks AV8 too
09:26:56  <planetmaker> hm, that, too
09:27:06  <andythenorth> [shrug]
09:27:20  <Alberth> displaying it elsewhere seems like a good direction to me
09:27:29  <planetmaker> it = ?
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09:27:40  <andythenorth> breaks NARS 2 as well
09:28:17  <planetmaker> but would it break, if the sprites are assumed fixed width and text drawn right of it (or left for rtl)?
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09:28:48  <andythenorth> it would 'break' as in, the spec changed
09:28:55  <andythenorth> and the grf no longer works as intended
09:29:05  <andythenorth> it wouldn't break in any significant way
09:29:46  <planetmaker> vehicles have a purchase menu sprite and a name. Both need be associated. But... that won't break, will it?
09:30:25  <andythenorth> only the positioning
09:30:42  <Alberth>    eg a different game display the object next to the list of objecst to pick from
09:30:55  <andythenorth> like stations
09:31:10  <andythenorth> I would miss sprites in the buy menu.  Just text is a bit meh
09:31:34  <Alberth> we'd keep sprites imho, but also display the "real" thing
09:31:49  <Alberth> that makes authors not want to use the real thing in the menu, I think
09:32:13  <andythenorth> do we have screen space spare?
09:32:19  <planetmaker> andythenorth: sure, sprites msut be kept
09:32:28  <planetmaker> I didn't suggest skipping those :-)
09:32:38  <Alberth> I was wondering about that too, it needs rethinking buy menu layout
09:33:01  <andythenorth> k, so limit max width of sprites in rows, add a new bigger sprite display when selected
09:33:23  <andythenorth> layout: simples
09:33:28  <Alberth> what if we give 2 lines to each vehicle, one for the sprite and the text under it?
09:33:31  <andythenorth> move the stats and picture to the right
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09:33:45  <andythenorth> most screens are landscape orientated, vertical space is at a premium
09:33:48  <planetmaker> Alberth: that would only lengthen the purchase list. Which is already very long
09:34:00  <planetmaker> I don't see an issue with side-by-side for one vehicle
09:34:12  <andythenorth> remove the info from the bottom provides more vertical space, then add a panel to the right for the details
09:34:29  <andythenorth> also 'rename'
09:34:34  * andythenorth -> photoshop
09:41:26  <planetmaker> yep. The detail info right or left (like newgrf list) is the window type which fits screen best
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09:43:51  <andythenorth>
09:43:58  <andythenorth> kind of sucks
09:44:05  <andythenorth> but only because it's not finished ;
09:44:27  <planetmaker> yes, like that. Still, the main list imho must contain sprites, too
09:44:37  <planetmaker> I only remember vehicles by their image. Not the name
09:45:29  <Alberth> planetmaker: look at the right :)
09:45:49  <planetmaker> Alberth: that means I have to click on each item to see the image. Much more click
09:45:49  <Alberth> but we can keep the buy menu sprites :)
09:46:18  <planetmaker> but I'm all for a standard purchase list sprite size
09:46:48  <planetmaker> or at least a max purchase list sprite width and a normed max height
09:47:10  <Alberth> Hirundo: does that answer your question? :)
09:47:19  <planetmaker> though I can also see the adv. in a text only list
09:47:30  <andythenorth> advanced setting :P
09:47:45  <Alberth> you'd need hover then for the image
09:48:08  <planetmaker> oh no. I rather have a text only list than an adv. setting for that :-)
09:48:27  <Hirundo> Alberth: Most excellently
09:48:41  <Hirundo> IMO there should be a small sprite in the list, and a (possibly) larger sprite in the side panel
09:48:57  <Hirundo> var10/18 can be used for that
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09:49:41  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Your paddle steamer is a stationary cargo hovercraft??? :P
09:52:43  <andythenorth> we don't have any kind of precedent for that hanging panel I've drawn
09:53:18  <Hirundo> it should not be hanging, list and side panel height would be equal
09:53:43  <andythenorth> that's my conclusion too
09:53:58  <FLHerne> You could make it like the station menu, and display sprites for multiple directions?
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09:54:15  <andythenorth> yes
09:54:22  <andythenorth> then I could buy vehicles for multiple directions
09:54:28  <andythenorth> I have been missing that feature
09:54:33  <Hirundo> :p
09:55:18  <FLHerne> So that players can see what the boat looks like from multiple directions, I mean :D
09:55:41  <FLHerne> Or display variations for different cargos?
09:55:44  <andythenorth> planetmaker: a text-only buy menu would be similar in essentials to this existing window
09:55:53  <andythenorth> FLHerne: available livery refits? :P
09:55:57  <Hirundo> That would be up to the grf author, he can decide what to show in that sprite
09:57:45  <Alberth> animated gif :p
09:57:51  <FLHerne> With a window like that, the author could display multiple sprites for each boat, which would be useful when they change appearance on refit
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10:02:14  <andythenorth> could also show the inevitable 32bpp sprites
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10:02:27  <andythenorth> and loads of flags and all the other crap
10:05:48  <Alberth> could be interesting at 8bpp :)
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10:07:26  <frosch123> yeah, make the vehicle rotate on some kind of podium in the details
10:07:37  <frosch123> that'll make it look like a website from 2000
10:09:42  <andythenorth> we already have <blink>, so why not
10:09:52  * andythenorth often makes sprites with <blink>
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10:12:24  <frosch123> actually, the sprite in the purchase list should be animated while selected
10:12:53  <frosch123> or when hovering the mouse?
10:13:24  <FLHerne> Can the industry purchase list have sprites? :P
10:14:57  <frosch123> you can't even select the layout
10:15:18  <FLHerne> Why not? :P
10:15:33  <andythenorth> because nobody wants to code it
10:15:54  <FLHerne> Seems reasonable... :-(
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10:25:07  <dihedral> \o/ found a bug in my bot, where when a monthly job runs at the beginning of the quarter, it gets parsed before the new date gets parsed... yay!
10:26:51  <TrueBrain> lol, did this dude serious suggest using Amazing S3 and some unknown hosting party? How hard can you misread a topic :D
10:27:00  <TrueBrain> also lol @ using C# for a website ...
10:27:03  <TrueBrain> why not C++? :)
10:27:10  <TrueBrain> or VB?
10:27:17  <TrueBrain> even Perl would be better :D
10:27:22  <Alberth> haskell ?
10:27:29  <frosch123> is there a vb to llvm compiler?
10:27:40  * NGC3982 is actually taking classes in C# after being shitstormed in this channel.
10:28:07  <TrueBrain> NGC3982: nothing wrong with C#
10:28:14  <TrueBrain> just .... use a language for its goal :)
10:28:18  <TrueBrain> websites is not a goal :P
10:28:35  <NGC3982> hehe
10:28:38  * NGC3982 has no clue.
10:28:40  <TrueBrain> (well, "nothing" ... it still is a MS language)
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10:29:13  <TrueBrain> it comes from the same people who thin IE9 supports enough CSS3 and HTML5 to be AWESOME
10:29:22  <NGC3982> :)
10:29:42  <Alberth> TrueBrain: not entirely true, they hired the creator of Eiffel :)
10:30:20  <Alberth> and the language itself seems nice enough
10:30:38  <TrueBrain> I guess you refer to C#?
10:30:47  <Alberth> although the code blocks all over the place would not be my preference
10:30:50  <Alberth> TrueBrain: yep
10:31:00  <TrueBrain> ah
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10:31:44  <Alberth> TrueBrain: on the other hand, they also ported C++ to .net, and dropped multi-inheritance :D
10:32:00  <Alberth> as the VM does not handle it :D
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10:33:58  <frosch123> does c# have a preprocessor step?
10:34:18  <Alberth> no
10:34:47  <Alberth> it's basically a newer java, but it is actually moving forwards :)
10:36:47  * dihedral still has hopes for java
10:45:17  <Alberth> their only advantage is the wide platform support
10:45:44  <dihedral> aye
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11:02:30  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24378 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Fix [FS#5218]: ReInit could crash for windows with NWidgetMatrix widgets.
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11:48:32  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24379 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#5218-ish]: Do not resize the object GUI when selecting objects. Rather clip the object name.
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12:37:41  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24380 /trunk/src/ (roadveh.h roadveh_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#5188]: RoadVehicle::IsInDepot did not check all articulated parts.
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12:53:46  <andythenorth> extra buy menu sprite would need to use one of the other sprites from the action 1 set
12:53:52  <andythenorth> [seems easiest to me]
12:53:59  * andythenorth -> out, madness
12:54:04  <andythenorth> toddler birthday party
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13:01:26  <NGC3982> the heat
13:02:43  <NGC3982> sweden has the worst weather ever
13:02:56  <NGC3982> it's like god vacuumed our oxygen away.
13:03:27  * FLHerne wonders whether to go out in the rain to look at this torch thing
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15:11:09  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24381 /trunk/src/ (roadveh.h roadveh_cmd.cpp): -Revert (r24380): RoadVehicle::IsInDepot was supposed to behave different to Train::IsInDepot.
15:24:16  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24382 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Fix: Call Vehicle::IsStoppedInDepot only for the first vehicle in a chain (i.e. primary vehicle or free wagon).
15:26:17  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24383 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix: a comment.
15:28:35  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24384 /trunk/src/ (14 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#5188-ish]: Make IsInDepot() functions behave consistent across vehicle types and add IsChainInDepot instead, if that is what shall be checked.
15:34:38  <Eddi|zuHause> "behave differently"
15:34:52  <Eddi|zuHause> needs to be an adverb :)
15:35:16  <Sacro> differently behave?
15:35:59  * frosch123 exorcises ln out of eddi
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15:39:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you should try exp() to cancel out an ln() :)
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16:32:10  <frosch123> does anyone have trouble downloading firs 0.7.5 from bananas using the ingame client?
16:32:37  <frosch123> maybe windows users?
16:33:59  <andythenorth> I don't
16:34:33  <frosch123> apparently some users get a corrupt file which has a different md5sum
16:34:49  <frosch123> but surprisingly the file still seems to be valid
16:35:33  <frosch123> there is no such file on bananas with such md5 as in fs#5231
16:35:52  <frosch123> also the md5 of the devzone download is correct
16:36:08  * andythenorth ponders that the game has three places to keep newgrfs
16:36:14  <andythenorth> took a while to find FIRS :P
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16:40:29  <frosch123> maybe there is a virus modifying grfs when downloaded :p
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17:07:02  <andythenorth> blearch
17:07:11  <andythenorth> my ship speed calculation is still clearly quite wrong
17:07:17  <andythenorth> @calc 50 = 56
17:07:17  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
17:07:27  <andythenorth> my thoughts too :P
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17:08:47  <Alberth> @calc 50 == 56
17:08:47  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 0
17:09:00  <andythenorth> ho
17:09:04  <Alberth> o/ LordAro
17:09:10  <andythenorth> it helps if I configure my set correctly :P
17:09:21  <LordAro> howdy all + Alberth
17:09:25  <andythenorth> I have booleans for 'sea capable' and 'inland capable'
17:09:26  <LordAro> update:
17:09:34  <LordAro> @fs 5236
17:09:34  <DorpsGek> LordAro:
17:09:46  <andythenorth> if they're not checked, I reduce speed by 20% accordingly :P
17:09:52  <andythenorth> or so
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17:31:48  * andythenorth considers which ships go faster unladen
17:31:54  <andythenorth> PAX hydrofoils?
17:31:58  <andythenorth> river barges?
17:33:09  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't make sense for passengers (because they're rarely fully unladen anyway. and because they don't have such a high weight to make a difference)
17:33:30  <Eddi|zuHause> neither for "vehicle ferry" types
17:33:58  <andythenorth> that's my thinking
17:34:00  <Eddi|zuHause> river barges sounds right, though. and possibly container freighters
17:34:06  <andythenorth> PAX are a negligible fraction of the weight
17:34:07  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24385 /trunk/src/lang/lithuanian.txt:
17:34:07  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:34:07  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 90 changes by Stabilitronas
17:35:15  <Eddi|zuHause> so: "vehicle ferries" don't go faster, regardless of which cargo they're refitted to, other freight ships do.
17:35:48  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe ferries should go faster in general, but have lower tonnage
17:37:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm worried about the gamebalance of hydrofoils. in my game, i replaced all passenger ferries with hydrofoils at some point, because speed makes all the difference.
17:39:44  <andythenorth> fair point
17:39:52  <andythenorth> can't think of a solution
17:39:59  <andythenorth> actually
17:40:01  <andythenorth> cargo aging
17:40:06  <andythenorth> ever been on a hydrofoil?
17:40:38  <andythenorth> noisy, unpleasant, hot, smells of kerosene
17:40:56  <andythenorth> we did Vienna-Bratislava on an ex-Soviet river hydrofoil
17:41:16  <FLHerne> Uncomfortable at sea, too :-(
17:41:24  <FLHerne> Don't like waves :P
17:41:32  <andythenorth> ?
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17:41:46  <FLHerne> Hydrofoils :P
17:41:47  * andythenorth though hydrofoils were smoother due to sub-sea foil
17:42:12  <andythenorth> wikipedia probably knows :P
17:42:12  <FLHerne> Depends if the waves are big enough to hit the hull anyway :-(
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17:43:39  * andythenorth needs an assistant
17:43:45  <andythenorth> for entering of stats to FISH cms :P
17:44:12  <andythenorth>
17:45:12  <FLHerne> So finding stats, and then sticking them in a table?
17:45:53  <NGC3982> the akward moment when scotty makes his first apperance in star trek tng
17:45:58  * NGC3982 mouth is indeed open.
17:47:23  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: when he reappears out of the transporter?
17:47:32  <NGC3982> yes
17:47:43  <NGC3982> note that i havent seen these episodes before.
17:47:48  <NGC3982> t'was fantastic.
17:48:37  <andythenorth> copying stats out of the nfo
17:48:40  <andythenorth> and pasting them in
17:48:46  <andythenorth> possibly converting hex -> dec
17:48:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it was a rather late episode?
17:48:57  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: yes, season six.
17:48:59  <TomyLobo> is it possible to run the simulation as fast as the CPU allows for a few years?
17:49:21  <TomyLobo> like, fast-forward 10 years
17:49:49  * andythenorth should find one of those js edit-table-in-place things
17:49:55  <FLHerne> Isn't that what the fast-forward button's for?
17:50:04  <TomyLobo> FLHerne that's too slow :)
17:50:05  * FLHerne probably just missed the point :P
17:50:07  <Eddi|zuHause> TomyLobo: if you run it headless (-v null) you can specify to run for a fixed number of ticks (that's intended for profiling purposes)
17:50:26  <TomyLobo> ah, how? :)
17:50:35  <TomyLobo> and can i load+save too?
17:51:03  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if it makes a savegame in the end
17:51:04  <FLHerne> Does fast-forward have a maximum speed limit? My computer would be slower than it anyway, so I don't know :P
17:51:22  <TomyLobo> FLHerne i doubt that. it uses 0% on my comp
17:51:40  <Eddi|zuHause> TomyLobo: but you can arrange the ticks in a way that it would end right after an autosave
17:51:41  <TomyLobo> and mine is very likely not 100 times as fast
17:51:50  <TomyLobo> Eddi|zuHause ah good plan
17:51:52  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: "engineering!? i thought you'd never ask!!"
17:52:16  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: i barely remember these episodes
17:52:38  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: and especially i've never seen them in english
17:52:46  <frosch123> "Forbid trains and ships from making 90° turns" <- is that actually english? shouldn't it be "prevent from" or "forbid to"?
17:53:08  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: oh, i see.
17:53:12  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: well, it sure is a blast. :)
17:53:50  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: and certainly i have no clue which episode belongs to which season
17:54:46  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: i often fail to deduce that, even though ive recently seen it.
17:58:43  <FLHerne> TomyLobo: It doesn't go any quicker on fast-forward than normal. I assume the limit must be higher than that...
17:59:00  <TomyLobo> are you on a 386?
18:00:03  <FLHerne> Nope, P4
18:00:12  <TomyLobo> did you underclock it?
18:00:31  <FLHerne> No, just used it for a while :-)
18:00:35  * NGC3982 used to have a pentium 3 for openttd.
18:00:36  <NGC3982> :(
18:00:44  * FLHerne still has one
18:01:15  <FLHerne> Secondary computer :-)
18:01:50  <TomyLobo> i have 4 cores at 3.2 ghz, makes 12.6 ghz, so to speak... so if you dont have less than 126 mhz (or since p4 is architecturally inferior, let's say 250 mhz), i dont see how you'd be CPU-limited while i dont even use 1% of mine
18:02:43  <FLHerne> Are you sure you're measuring it reliably? Seems impressively low
18:02:48  <TomyLobo> wait, it actually uses 35% now :D
18:03:09  <FLHerne> That convinces me a bit more
18:03:11  <TomyLobo> i.e. more than one core
18:03:52  <FLHerne> Try running it on a 133MHz PPC laptop :D
18:03:57  <FLHerne> Slow...
18:04:07  <TomyLobo> nah, PPCs need to die
18:04:26  * FLHerne objects strongly to that comment
18:04:32  <TomyLobo> no java 1.6 for ppc macs
18:04:33  <FLHerne> PPC is awesome :D
18:04:52  <TomyLobo> that's why minecraft and many mods use java 1.5
18:04:54  <FLHerne> And? Java is hopeless anyway :P
18:04:59  <TomyLobo> and java 1.5 plainly sucks
18:06:29  <FLHerne> Has anyone else tried OTTD on m68k?
18:06:42  <Rubidium> I tried is on S/390 (emulated)
18:06:57  <FLHerne> Didn't work out well for me, perhaps someone else did better :-)
18:07:26  <Rubidium> isn't Amiga m68k?
18:07:41  <FLHerne> Rubidium: What's the point in emulating things to run software that would be fine on the host anyway? :P
18:07:55  <Alberth> Atari ST was, and probably some Amiga too
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18:10:15  <Rubidium> FLHerne: mainly because I didn't have the money to buy a S/390
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18:11:21  <FLHerne> :P
18:11:42  <FLHerne> Why did you want to run OTTD on one anyway?
18:12:46  <Rubidium> because compilation failed on that (and some other architectures)
18:12:52  <Rubidium> and this was the easiest to emulate
18:13:15  <Rubidium> FWIW: a whopping 9 GB disk for a S/390 costs about 500 dollars on ebay
18:13:58  <Rubidium> and only 8k for a single S/390
18:14:53  <Rubidium> but then it's a mainframe from the 1990s
18:14:55  <FLHerne> How did you find out that compilation failed, then? :P
18:15:31  <Alberth> can you run it from a standard power outlet, or do you need to put in extra heavy cabling first?
18:15:37  <Rubidium> FLHerne:
18:16:41  <Alberth> in the latter case, 8k won't be enough then :)
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18:18:01  * LordAro pokes devs:
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18:18:42  <FLHerne> Ah. Is there any way to find out how many people downloaded it for S/390? Probably not a lot...
18:18:55  <frosch123> LordAro: you are on windows, aren't you?
18:19:17  <frosch123> what file do you get when you download firs 0.5 from bananas using the ingame download?
18:20:31  <Rubidium> LordAro: what's the point of that feature? The ones you would like to have the text files of you can't get the text files from
18:26:49  *** LordAro [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:29:17  <frosch123> you cannot really blame him for that :p
18:30:03  <frosch123> but yes, bananas should be able to provide the textfiles on their own, just like it should be able to provide 8bpp-only and normal-zoom-only stuff
18:30:13  <Rubidium> no, but this 'feature' makes that terribly clear
18:30:33  <Rubidium> and the main problem with bananas is that it needs a massive rewrite
18:31:32  <Rubidium> I furthermore also wonder how to handle all the asynchronicity and mirrors with pushing all readmes, licenses and such to there as well
18:32:54  <frosch123> why would that need anything special?
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18:52:55  * andythenorth considers playing the game
18:52:59  <andythenorth> any new features recently?
18:53:56  <frosch123> recently or since you played the last time?
18:54:08  <andythenorth> within last month or so
18:54:58  <frosch123> i think in that time the number of open bugs raised from 20 to 40, else nothing happend :p
18:55:27  <andythenorth> we need new features!
18:55:33  * andythenorth offers to test patches :P
18:56:04  <frosch123> last one was newgrf signals, before that was advanced filtering in newgrf gui and others
18:56:29  <andythenorth> magic routing algorithms?
18:56:32  <andythenorth> for cargo packets?
18:58:52  <frosch123> route them to /dev/null
19:05:42  <andythenorth> bah
19:05:48  <andythenorth> hardly any industries
19:06:03  <andythenorth> don't use FIRS with 'low'
19:06:17  <andythenorth> or with 'normal'
19:06:54  <andythenorth> normal provides far too many
19:06:59  <andythenorth> low provides far too few
19:07:06  <frosch123> the number of industries in total is fixed per setting
19:08:22  <andythenorth> on a none-scientific estimate, 'normal' provides 300% of 'low'
19:08:31  * andythenorth could read the code of course
19:09:31  <frosch123> 10, 25, 55, 80
19:09:52  <frosch123> @calc 55/25 * 100
19:09:52  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 220
19:09:56  <frosch123> only 220%
19:10:22  <andythenorth> :)
19:11:40  * andythenorth doesn't play a game after all
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19:46:39  <waterfoul> My trains keep getting stuck at either 0% or 100% after (un)loading... how do I fix them?
19:48:25  <Alberth> do you use time tables?
19:48:37  * waterfoul facepalms
19:48:48  <waterfoul> I turn them on for a few trains and forgot about them
19:48:54  <Alberth> :)
19:49:31  <waterfoul> *turned
19:49:31  <waterfoul> how do you clear it?
19:49:43  <waterfoul> can you clear a timetable after it's been created?
19:50:02  <Alberth> isn't there a 'clear times' button?
19:50:32  <Alberth> otherwise the wiki might know
19:51:01  <waterfoul> oh... I was looking for a clear all button... you need to click on the times to enable the botton so I didn't see it
19:51:37  <Alberth> could be, I hardly use time tables
19:53:15  <frosch123> waterfoul: also read about shared orders
19:53:33  <frosch123> then you can set up timetables for multiple vehicles together, instead of only for some
19:53:42  <waterfoul> ok
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20:00:15  <Alberth> good night
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20:47:17  <waterfoul> is there a way to add some sort of penalty to a like so the teains are less likely to use it?
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20:58:01  <frosch123> waterfoul: use a backfacing path signal
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21:11:39  <NGC3982> neat, commander data is using a bnc contact to connect his neural interface in star trek tng.
21:11:42  <NGC3982> :E
21:14:04  <frosch123> that's security by obscurity
21:14:18  <frosch123> just imagine how few would know about bnc contacts in the future
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21:21:29  <FLHerne> @logs
21:21:29  <DorpsGek> FLHerne:
21:22:09  *** NataS [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:22:30  <monkeyman23555> hello
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21:23:12  <FLHerne> Evening
21:26:46  <monkeyman23555> I have a question about the 32bpp, I cant find any good documentation for 1.2.* versions.. I am currently on can I just download the tar files and install them in a directory?
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21:28:34  <frosch123> likely not
21:29:32  <monkeyman23555> is there a way to actually have 1.2.1 working with 32bpp at the moment?
21:32:03  <frosch123> you can use the nightly of ogfx+trains
21:32:08  <frosch123> then you have 32bpp trains
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21:34:11  <monkeyman23555> frosch123: is this the one?
21:34:44  *** Nat_aS [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:40:50  <frosch123> yes, the nightly
21:41:12  <frosch123> just put it into the "newgrf" folder of your installation
21:41:19  <frosch123> and add it via the newgrf settings
21:45:15  <monkeyman23555> I put the file into newgrf, but it does not show up in the newgrf settings, am I meant to extract it?
21:47:53  <frosch123> ah, it's a zip
21:48:01  <frosch123> yes, then extract it, but leave the tar
21:48:14  <frosch123> you should have an ogfx-trains.tar in the end
21:50:50  <monkeyman23555> hm seems to be corrupted?
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21:55:03  <monkeyman23555> infact it is of size 0 kb
21:55:51  <frosch123> <- then use that one
21:56:22  <frosch123> <- hmm, or that
21:56:37  <frosch123> 51M sounds like a decent size for a 32bpp newgrf with zoom levels
21:57:45  <monkeyman23555> I suppose so... 698 is also only 86KB apperently
22:01:29  <monkeyman23555> thank you frosch123
22:01:37  <frosch123> you're welcome
22:10:36  <frosch123> night
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22:36:45  <Guilux> hi there
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22:56:29  <FLHerne> Hi
22:56:43  <FLHerne> (belatedly, but anyway...)
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23:44:40  <Wolf01> 'night
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