Log for #openttd on 9th July 2012:
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06:11:37  <Terkhen> good morning
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06:14:13  <NGC3982> morning.
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07:23:43  <dihedral> greetings
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09:08:23  <KillSpammer> Ello
09:10:32  <dihedral> ey
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09:29:40  <planetmaker> moin
09:33:42  <dihedral> hello planetmaker
09:33:48  * NGC3982 just made his forst successful sql repair.
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10:17:17  <fuzxl> Hello!
10:17:28  <fuzxl> Which AI is best for a beginner to play against?
10:17:38  <fuzxl> I played against RoadRunner and it's pretty tough
10:35:13  <welshdragon> Is there a way to override the 'Town is too close to another town' error in OpenTTD?
10:43:37  <dihedral> create 2 small towns as close as possible and grow them later on? :-P
10:43:50  <Eddi|zuHause>
10:44:24  <Eddi|zuHause> welshdragon: that is a hardcoded limit, so it can only be changed by patching
10:45:12  <welshdragon> :s
10:45:52  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 415893/9
10:45:53  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 46210.3333333
10:49:52  <dihedral> because running the os own calculator is too mainstream? :-P
10:53:39  <Eddi|zuHause> it's more keys
11:00:18  <Terkhen> fuzxl: IIRC there is an AI comparative somewhere, probably in the wiki
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11:25:48  <fuzxl> okay
11:25:54  <fuzxl> Thank you, Terkhen
11:26:27  <Terkhen> yw
11:37:20  <fuzxl> Is there a mod that gives sprites for stations with more than two platforms?
11:37:53  <fuzxl> It looks somehow ridiculous that a station with three platforms has one roof and one platform without a roof
11:39:50  <michi_cc> Best NewGRF for passenger stations is NewStations IMHO. Not on the online content though
11:40:22  <fuzxl> okay
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11:58:02  * dihedral seems to be a fuzz-nutt!
11:59:20  <peter1138> michi_cc, sadly so :-(
11:59:58  <peter1138> One of these days someone™ will step up to the challenge and make a contender to rival it.
12:06:43  <Eddi|zuHause> one of these days we'll make an exception to the ToS for CC-like licenses.
12:32:45  <Terkhen> what kind of exception?
12:35:39  <__ln__> would it be completely out of the question to -- without using newgrf -- not draw any roofs on stations that are not close enough to cities?
12:37:23  <Hirundo> If you build stations platform-by-platform, you get no roofs
12:37:42  <__ln__> i don't want to.
12:39:09  <Hirundo> Your other options are either using newgrf or patching openttd
12:39:46  <__ln__> but seriously, why would a cargo-only station next to a forest or mine or whatever have a roof.
12:39:55  <__ln__> yes, i am talking about patching openttd.
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12:42:37  <__ln__> the roof is even a separate sprite as far as i know, so not drawing it would technically not be a terribly big problem.
12:43:39  <Hirundo> You can patch ottd all you like, but I don't expect such a patch to end up in trunk, as this is exactly what newgrfs were invented for
12:44:12  <__ln__> lol, i definitely don't expect any patch to end up in trunk.
12:44:24  <Hirundo> But you could certainly apply a patch locally and join MP servers, compatibility should be no issue
12:48:24  <__ln__> but does the existence of newgrfs mean that no changes will ever be done to the actual code anymore?
12:49:59  <Terkhen> in general, any options that can be implemented via newgrf are not considered for implementation in openttd
12:50:39  <Terkhen> there are exceptions though, such as currencies
12:51:31  <__ln__> how silly is that
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12:54:10  <dihedral> i think i possibly have a bug in the date handling of openttd
12:54:42  <dihedral> if _date = 713012 the game is at 1952-2-29
12:55:06  <dihedral> if _date = 713013 it's 1952-2-1
12:55:26  <Terkhen> __ln__: why is not wanting to duplicate work in both implementation and bug checking silly?
12:57:17  <NGC3982>
12:57:21  <NGC3982> did you guys make this?
12:57:50  <Hirundo> dihedral: If I fast-forward through february 1952, I see nothing strange
12:58:33  <dihedral> yes - i did not see it in game either... i am somewhat puzled right now
12:58:35  <Terkhen> NGC3982: no, check the suggestions subforum
12:59:06  <dihedral> i am using a ConvertDateToYMD(_date, &ymd); in a daily loop
12:59:20  <dihedral> and printing every day
12:59:56  <dihedral> make
13:00:01  <dihedral> ops
13:03:28  <peter1138> February happened twice in 1952.
13:04:38  <__ln__> Terkhen: the stations are drawn some way in the code already (as far as i understand, without the help of newgrfs). so the duplicate work already exists, adjusting the code slightly does not change the situation.
13:07:23  <Hirundo> __ln__: What about people who do like roofed stations and suddenly find the roofs removed?
13:07:36  <Terkhen> what if a newgrf author decides that he always wants roofs? or if an old newgrf uses the roof sprites to hack something that it is not a roof? the openttd code would need to deal with those cases
13:08:03  <__ln__> Hirundo: they can use a newgrf then, right?
13:08:57  <Hirundo> I think *you* should be the one using a newgrf
13:09:25  <__ln__> Terkhen: so newgrf roof drawing relies on openttd at least trying to draw the roof?
13:09:39  <__ln__> Hirundo: but i don't like newgrfs.
13:11:03  <Hirundo> That, fortunately, is not my problem
13:12:14  <Terkhen> I don't know the implementation details
13:12:20  <Hirundo> If you don't like newgrfs, you can't expect openttd to behave the way you like, just so you can live without newgrfs
13:12:37  <Terkhen> I was assuming that it worked like you mentioned
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13:14:19  <__ln__> Terkhen: i'm 89.3% sure the platform and roof sprites are separate (and therefore drawn separately), but i don't know how newgrfs works.
13:14:47  <__ln__> -s
13:17:03  <Belugas> hello
13:17:24  <Terkhen> hi Belugas :)
13:18:23  <Belugas> sir Terkhen :)  faithfully at the station ;)
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15:38:54  <Rubidium> dihedral: are you really sure of that? Isn't it 1952-1-29 then 1952-2-1?
15:40:41  <dihedral> Rubidium, i was also using _cur_year and _cur_month+1, as soon as i only used the calculated ymd value, i could not reproduce it
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15:42:28  <dihedral> i assume they only get set after the daily loop runs?
15:45:04  <dihedral> yes, that's it
15:45:20  <dihedral> so within a dailyloop, making use of _cur_month should not be done
15:45:30  <dihedral> some thing with monthly loop making use of _cur_year
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16:04:02  <dihedral> Rubidium, is it done on purpose that _cur_month is set after dailyLoops run?
16:08:10  <frosch123> doing stuff at the end of month vs. doing stuff at the begin of month
16:08:12  <frosch123> isn't it?
16:11:44  <dihedral> it's stil the same month!
16:17:58  <frosch123> hmm, why was the "vehicle is hidden" flag aded to var 62?
16:19:13  <michi_cc> frosch123: I'd guess for easier coding of non-glitching tunnels in CETS.
16:20:21  <frosch123> is there any chance that someone reading the specs might think that it might refer to the current vehicle, instead of the one addressed by the 60+x parameter?
16:26:49  <frosch123> oh, the variable is not supported by nml?
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16:43:44  <michi_cc> frosch123: Stupidity is unlimited, so yes, somebody could misunderstand it, but I think it is pretty clear.
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16:48:22  <Alberth> moin all
16:48:53  <Terkhen> hi Alberth
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17:32:42  <andythenorth> rabbits!
17:35:07  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24389 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
17:35:07  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:35:07  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: catalan - 3 changes by mtormo
17:35:07  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by habell
17:35:07  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
17:35:08  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
17:35:08  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: german - 3 changes by planetmaker
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17:37:59  <Alberth> andythenorth: what about the following error:    "fish.nml", line 268: String "STR_2_DIESEL_CYCLOIDAL" not available
17:38:10  <andythenorth> looks fine
17:38:14  <andythenorth> line number is enough
17:38:41  <Alberth> I shall remove the string name :D
17:45:29  <andythenorth>'s helpful :P
17:46:02  <Alberth> issue 3932 looks like yours
17:47:37  <andythenorth> yup
17:48:09  <Alberth> also the same spot
17:54:16  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I have seen a game in which a recycling depot is producing over 6000t of recyclables :P
17:55:48  <andythenorth> excellent :)
17:56:14  * andythenorth needs inspiring to some TTD stuff
17:57:11  <NGC3982> make me a year one truck.
17:57:32  <NGC3982> or make me an expert in sql query.
17:57:34  <NGC3982> :(
17:57:40  * andythenorth considers making a kitten related GS
17:57:42  <Terkhen> andythenorth: since the server they are playing has no train support for recyclables, the player who is trying to transport them created a huge traffic jam :P
17:58:13  <andythenorth> great :)
17:58:31  <andythenorth> it's a very large city?
17:59:07  <Alberth> NGC3982: use LINQ, and pretend to be an expert
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18:00:35  <Terkhen> andythenorth: 89465
18:01:17  <andythenorth> they should get ships
18:01:20  <andythenorth> and build a canal
18:01:38  <Alberth> and dump the trash in the canal :p
18:01:41  <andythenorth> that's one 200t barge per day, nothing :P
18:02:13  <Alberth> posted the patch
18:02:19  <andythenorth> ah FIRS :)
18:02:22  <andythenorth> one day I might work on it
18:02:53  <andythenorth> I got interested, then I got bored because it's not very good really
18:03:10  <andythenorth> bloated, lacks interesting gameplay
18:03:17  <andythenorth> I like the graphics though
18:03:19  <Terkhen> it is quite good IMO :P
18:03:39  <Alberth> add economies so you can have a smaller set?
18:03:54  <andythenorth> perhaps
18:04:06  <andythenorth> it fails to generate interesting maps
18:04:14  <andythenorth> and placing them in scenario editor is 'meh'
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18:05:25  * andythenorth is hoping Pikka returns with TAI
18:05:41  <andythenorth> maybe I'm starting my games too early
18:05:43  <andythenorth> 1870
18:06:32  <Alberth> aren't you waiting forever with the horse driven vehicles?
18:06:36  <andythenorth> lots of industries missing in 1870
18:06:43  <andythenorth> and the ships aren't finished either :P
18:07:03  <andythenorth> the new industry types generally don't get added to the map
18:07:14  * Alberth imagines half-finished ships floating passed :)
18:07:46  <andythenorth> if I put the renders in, that's what you'd get ;)
18:08:29  <andythenorth> hmm
18:08:33  <andythenorth> fix rivers?
18:08:40  * Alberth nods
18:08:54  <andythenorth> diagonal rivers?
18:09:00  <andythenorth> rivers that get wider near the sea?
18:09:24  <andythenorth> the basic river algorithm is pretty pleasing
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18:10:04  <Wolf01> hello
18:10:32  <andythenorth> ice roads!
18:11:27  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
18:11:56  <Alberth> less easy deletable rivers
18:12:17  <Alberth> s/y/ily/
18:12:28  <andythenorth> yes
18:12:31  <andythenorth> oh yes that
18:12:40  <andythenorth> just store 'this tile wants to be river' already :)
18:12:47  <andythenorth> perhaps it's not that easy :P
18:12:50  <andythenorth> map layers!
18:13:06  * andythenorth ponders GS
18:13:22  <frosch123> hmm, what's the correct behaviour for fs#5213?
18:13:30  * andythenorth ponders adding a Warehouse / Port industry
18:13:34  <frosch123> deny the cloning to clone invalid orders?
18:13:40  <frosch123> *or
18:14:11  <andythenorth> deny the clone?
18:14:22  <andythenorth> are orders still an arse for articulated RVs btw?
18:14:24  * andythenorth checks
18:14:52  <Alberth> copy the invalid orders into the clone?
18:15:05  <andythenorth> hmm
18:15:07  <andythenorth> inconsistencies
18:15:24  <andythenorth> trying to route an articulated pax vehicle to drive-in stop produces error string
18:15:31  <frosch123> currently i am pondering copying invalid orders if they are already invalid for the source
18:15:33  <andythenorth> trying to route to a truck stop doesn't
18:15:43  <andythenorth> game doesn't know what the right thing to do is here
18:16:07  <frosch123> andythenorth: you can route it to a drive-through stop and then replace the dts with a normal one
18:16:29  <andythenorth> it will just drive round in circles then?
18:16:37  * andythenorth remembers that behaviour
18:16:45  <Alberth> frosch123: the cloned copy will get caught by the order checking anyway
18:17:11  <Alberth> or we need to ask confirmation
18:17:17  <frosch123> andythenorth: sometimes they even skip the order
18:17:29  <Alberth> but that's a lot of hassle
18:18:18  <Alberth> hmm, if they share orders, the problem is not growing
18:18:31  <andythenorth> "Oil has been discovered near Beaberg.  You need to move people and supplies to the oil fields, and transport the oil out.  There is a port at Sluchester Falls which will supply some of the cargos you need, and accept the oil.  Other cargos you will have to find yourself from the map."
18:18:46  <andythenorth> "Your company has a 30 year concession to move as much oil and supplies as possible"
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18:19:04  <frosch123> <- currently i have that
18:19:06  <andythenorth> "But if your town rating drops too low for too many years, your concession may be revoked"
18:19:11  <andythenorth> ^^^ etc
18:19:26  <andythenorth> sound interesting?
18:19:47  <andythenorth> would be either a specific map, or a generic map
18:19:53  <andythenorth> generic / random /s
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18:20:55  <frosch123> oh, ogfx+rv had no articulated vehicles?
18:21:26  <Alberth> not that I remember
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18:23:00  <Alberth> andythenorth: I think it'd be useful if the GS could give you such assignments
18:23:10  <andythenorth> no idea if it can
18:23:21  <andythenorth> I don't really understand GS
18:23:27  <Terkhen> frosch123: none at all :P
18:23:41  <Alberth> GS can open windows with message :)
18:23:46  <frosch123> well, i had to edit my grfs ingame to get some :p
18:24:05  <frosch123> i had already layed my testtrack, so did not want to restart :)
18:24:37  <andythenorth> GS can't spawn industries?
18:24:48  <planetmaker> yes. somewhat
18:25:25  <frosch123> the gs needs a rich uncle
18:25:38  <frosch123> take a look at zuu's split scenario
18:26:27  <andythenorth> needs designed so that it doesn't have to control the newgrf
18:26:29  <andythenorth> hmm
18:26:39  <andythenorth> anyone want to poke at it with me, or something like it?
18:26:47  <Zuu> frosch123: :-)
18:26:48  <andythenorth> I won't work on it on my own, lacking motivation :P
18:27:40  <Alberth> Zuu: did you find my new patch?
18:27:52  <Zuu> Yep, I haevn't yet tried it out.
18:27:58  <Zuu> What did you change?
18:28:02  <andythenorth> GS would be independent of vehicle newgrfs
18:28:06  <andythenorth> would require FIRS
18:28:12  <Zuu> Do I need to update the GS or did you just fix bugs?
18:28:19  <andythenorth> would be interesting to make it work on any random map :O
18:28:36  <andythenorth> actually....would want control over mapgen, GS can't do that?
18:28:51  <Alberth> generalized to monitoring towns as well, and does load/save of the monitored combinations into the savegame
18:29:45  <Alberth> I tried your script, and it works nicely for the industry part
18:30:15  <Alberth> but it'd be nice if it could also do some testing with towns
18:31:00  <Zuu> I'll take a look at it eventually. Currently I work on my t-loop website.
18:31:51  <Alberth> I have to re-check the doxy comments, then find out whether it is good enough :)
18:32:09  <Alberth> If it is, it'll probably end up in trunk quite soon-ish
18:32:42  <Zuu> ok
18:34:12  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24390 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp:
18:34:12  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Change [FS#5213]: Allow cloning of orders which are unreachable for the
18:34:12  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: destination vehicle if they were already unreachable for the source vehicle.
18:34:12  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: This makes cloning/autorenewing/autoreplacing behave more smooth during station
18:34:12  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: reconstruction.
18:34:12  <Zuu> Ah sorry for not being overenthuastic. I see it may certainly be useful, Im just having my focus elsewhere tonight. :-)
18:34:39  <Alberth> Zuu: np, that just happens
18:36:01  <Alberth> it is just that I have vacation now, so I have more time and want to get this out of the way
18:36:39  <Alberth> since your script worked for the industries, I don't really expect trouble with the towns, as it works in exactly the same way as the industries
18:37:13  <andythenorth> Alberth: you have vacation :O
18:37:14  <Alberth> so I see little reason to wait much
18:37:18  <andythenorth> go somewhere sunny
18:37:25  * andythenorth assumes northern europe is not sunny for Alberth
18:37:44  <Alberth> I like not too much sun
18:38:01  <Alberth> 20+ degrees is enough for me
18:38:34  <andythenorth> it was 33' in Sardinia
18:38:36  * andythenorth liked it
18:38:53  <andythenorth> on the flight, it was obvious that there is solid low cloud all the way from UK to Grenoble
18:38:58  <andythenorth> then pure sun :P
18:39:41  <andythenorth> also vacation means you can join my new GS project :D
18:39:56  <NGC3982> huh, grenoble.
18:40:09  <Alberth> andythenorth: you didn't read my patch did you?  :)
18:40:17  <andythenorth> nope
18:40:20  <andythenorth> :)
18:42:21  <Alberth> +/** @file script_cargomonitor.hpp Everything to monitor cargo pickup and deliveries by companies. */  <-- a small extract from it
18:43:03  <andythenorth> ho
18:43:04  <andythenorth> :)
18:43:22  <andythenorth> there's a GS forum somewhere
18:43:27  * andythenorth rummages
18:44:11  <andythenorth> does GS yet have a 'challenge goals progress' screen?
18:44:23  <andythenorth> replacing the stupid existing 'game goals' screen
18:44:52  <andythenorth> "Detailed Performance Rating" <- should die :P
18:45:15  <andythenorth> I want things like "Amount Cargo X delivered (all time)"
18:45:36  <frosch123> what i actually miss most about gs is a logbook
18:45:43  <andythenorth> "Amount Cargo Z delivered to Frondingham since 1974"
18:45:46  <andythenorth> logbook?
18:45:59  <frosch123> whenever i played one of zuu's scripts i wanted a method to read the messages i just closed
18:46:11  <andythenorth> history
18:46:18  <Alberth> they are not in the news history?
18:46:37  <frosch123> the news history has only news, not goal questons/info boxes
18:46:56  <andythenorth> game log
18:46:59  <andythenorth> interesting
18:47:02  <Zuu> frosch123: For the tutorial, I think the messages also end up in the AI debug window.
18:47:28  <Zuu> For the split scenario, I don't think that GS prints its messages to the debug log.
18:47:35  <frosch123> Zuu: haha, so the debug gui is part of the tutorial :)
18:48:30  <Zuu> The tutorial does it for historical reasons. TutorialAI used signs for display and they are even more unreadable than centered text in a window. Especially if you were unlucky with the color selection.
18:48:33  <frosch123> anyway, some usages of the current popup windows could also be replaced by some objectives windows
18:48:48  <frosch123> which comes closer to what andy meant with the performance rating
18:50:05  <frosch123> hmm, is 12pm noon or midnight?
18:51:00  <Rubidium> yes! ;)
18:51:07  <Zuu> :-)
18:51:32  <frosch123> looks like 12pm = (12 + epsilon) pm
18:51:43  <Rubidium> that's why you NEVER use 12pm or 12am in the real world
18:51:43  <NGC3982>
18:52:28  <frosch123> i thought that's why every advanced civilisation does not use am and pm?
18:53:28  <frosch123> am and pm are way better suited to run #coop :)
18:59:26  <Alberth> especially in the morning
19:00:44  <frosch123> i was always wondering whether they do 12 hours shift at #coop
19:01:03  <frosch123> wrt. admin-support
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19:04:14  <planetmaker> lol, frosch123 ;-)
19:05:15  <frosch123> see, i almost never see am, but i am also usually only here during pm-hours
19:07:13  <NGC3982> am or pm seems to be a 18th century thing
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19:27:02  <Afdal> Hey sometimes I run into a bug
19:27:13  <Afdal> in multiplayer and while fooling around alone
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19:27:30  <Afdal> where all the trains in a game will forget to regularly service
19:27:47  <Afdal> Does anyone know what causes this?
19:28:07  <Alberth> breakdown disabled?
19:28:23  <Afdal> enabled
19:29:03  <Afdal> I just had it happen right now while I was messing around with the change date cheat
19:29:05  <Alberth> hmm, no idea then
19:29:06  <Afdal> and resetengines
19:29:22  <Afdal> while fast-forwarding
19:29:44  <Alberth> that counts as fooling around yeah :)
19:30:08  <Afdal> however sometimes it happens during a normal multiplayer game
19:30:21  <Afdal> with no fiddling like that
19:30:48  <Alberth> at least in the latter case, a bug report with savegame would be useful
19:30:50  <Afdal> Haven't seen it happen in a while but the last time was in a v1.1.5 or so game
19:31:43  <Alberth> do the dates of last service seem ok then?
19:31:59  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24391 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Change [FS#5229]: Disallow original and better road layouts to build roads under bridges along the bridge direction.
19:32:24  <Afdal> well I have the last service date on this as 2076
19:32:31  <Afdal> and I have the year set as 2043 now
19:32:44  <Afdal> so that would probably explain what happened there
19:32:45  <Alberth> that sounds like a date cheat effect
19:32:49  <Afdal> yeah
19:33:01  <Afdal> But I'm fairly certain this happened in a multiplayer game with no date cheating one time
19:33:18  <Afdal> Buuuut maybe it didn't
19:33:24  <Alberth> I don't think it counts as real bug, cheats have all kind of weird side effects
19:34:03  <Alberth> well, if you find one without cheats, please report it, so we can have a look at it
19:34:10  <Afdal> yeah, will do
19:34:24  <Afdal> Don't have that save anymore but if I come across it again I will
19:34:39  <Alberth> also not in the autosave?
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19:34:57  <Afdal> nah, that was way too long ago
19:35:03  <Alberth> k
19:35:19  <Alberth> it's just that many people forget they exist :)
19:35:44  <Afdal> Actually, I do have a save
19:35:46  <Afdal> where this happened
19:35:52  <Afdal> But no proof that it happened
19:36:02  <Afdal> other than the fact that the date cheat checkbox isn't checked
19:36:33  <Alberth> if you let the game run, no train should get serviced, right?
19:36:43  <Alberth> oh, did you move depots?
19:36:51  <Afdal> no, they service now
19:37:08  <Alberth> they have to be close enough to the lines they drive on to find the depots
19:37:13  <Afdal> but they didn't at one point, and everyone's company profits nosedived for a while
19:37:24  <Afdal> Yeah I don't think it was a pathfinding issue
19:37:33  <Afdal> I can't remember what fixed the problem though
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19:38:00  <Alberth> I have seen that happen where I used old trains too long, so they break down all the time
19:38:13  <Afdal> it wasn't that though
19:38:27  <Afdal> everyone was using the latest trains
19:38:32  <Alberth> and then they reach 1% reliability, and break down every 3 tiles, while driving to the depot :p
19:38:36  <Afdal> heh
19:38:58  <Afdal> One thing I know that resolves this issue during a game is sending trains to depot
19:39:04  <Afdal> to reset the maintenance
19:39:15  <Afdal> but I can't remember if that's what we did
19:39:44  <Alberth> yeah, it doesn't matter how they reach the depot, but you want it happening automatically
19:41:22  <andythenorth> hmm
19:41:29  * andythenorth needs some kind of Hello World GS
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19:42:07  * Afdal needs an IRC-OpenTTD relay bot that works on Windows
19:42:08  <andythenorth> maybe just pops up a dialog with "Hello World"
19:42:15  <Afdal> We all can dream though can't we
19:42:25  <Alberth> Afdal: another possible explanation is if you have a depot in the orders
19:42:40  <Alberth> then it won't go looking for a depot any more
19:42:45  <Afdal> hmmm
19:42:56  <Afdal> well in this game we were relying entirely on automatic maintenance
19:43:03  <Afdal> so nothing in the orders
19:47:09  <Alberth> andythenorth: the split scenario GS may be a good starting point?
19:47:24  <andythenorth> do I look in forums for that?
19:47:30  <frosch123> bananas
19:47:34  <Alberth> bananas :)
19:47:59  <frosch123> but you can thank zuu afterwards via the scenario forums :p
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19:49:15  <Zuu> andythenorth: I have a template/minimal GS that I duplicate whenever I want to create a new GS. :-)
19:49:44  <Alberth> Afdal: usually, such problems are path-finder issues, see eg
19:49:45  <Zuu> I could upload it somewhere if you want it. But it might be a bit silent as "hello world".
19:50:11  <Zuu> TransportGoals is otherwise a fairly short GS.
19:50:18  <Zuu> that still does something.
19:52:27  <andythenorth> maybe I play Split scenario first ;)
19:52:33  <andythenorth> looks interesting
19:52:39  <Afdal> yeah it's nothing like that Alberth
19:53:00  <Afdal> all the tracks in this save are simple uh
19:53:11  <Afdal> one-track-per-direction networks
19:53:19  <Afdal> with short distances to depots
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19:53:48  <Alberth> Afdal: without a save game in a broken state, it is sort of hopeless to find anything, I think
19:53:55  <Afdal> yeah :(
19:54:34  <Alberth> just keep an eye out, and let us know when you find anything
19:54:45  <Afdal> alll right
19:54:47  <Zuu> andythenorth: Some people complained that it was too easy, so the current second version is quite a bit harder. Mostly you may run out of time if you are too slow.
19:55:02  <Zuu> The goal will wait forever, but the secondary industries doesn't wait forever.
19:55:05  <Alberth> sorry andy :)
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20:00:29  <andythenorth> good night
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20:21:44  <Terkhen> good night
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20:32:49  <LordAro> devs: <-- thoughts? (the thread that i commented in)
20:34:28  <frosch123> just let them play simcity
20:35:49  <Nat_aS>
20:35:51  <Nat_aS> UGH
20:35:51  <planetmaker> what shall we think? It's how it is
20:36:06  <Nat_aS> why do people think Locomotion is a good direction for graphics?
20:36:28  <planetmaker> models scale easier
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20:37:59  <Nat_aS> well they kind of have a point, but Newgrf is more important then they think it is
20:38:27  <planetmaker> they are important. But many in the forums probably also overrate them ;-)
20:38:38  <frosch123> Nat_aS: actually they do not have a point
20:38:46  <planetmaker> the forums = our forums.
20:38:49  <Nat_aS> it's better to slowly work on modernising the game without upturning Newgrfs in the process, than it is to just throw the baby out with the bathwater.
20:38:56  <frosch123> they are suggesting to replace one plugin mechanism with a different one
20:38:56  <planetmaker> Nat_aS: is it?
20:39:28  <frosch123> but the problems they critisize is that plugins depend on each other and cannot be replaced one by one without affecting the other ones
20:39:41  <frosch123> but that problem does not change when changing the plugin mechanism
20:39:43  <Nat_aS> a lot of OTTDs problems is because it's a game from the 90s that was never intended to be this big of a modding sandbox
20:40:05  <Nat_aS> but it's still somehow a better modding sandbox than Simutrans
20:40:10  <Nat_aS> which was designed from the ground up
20:40:14  <planetmaker> it has some historic ballast there. But... would it be better if freshly designed?
20:40:24  <Nat_aS> which is strange
20:40:36  <Nat_aS> I have no idea why they don't give modders more options in Simutrans
20:40:56  <Nat_aS> you get one company color, and one empty/loaded sprite
20:41:04  <Nat_aS> no half full or random cargo options
20:41:08  <planetmaker> the challenges are in how mods interact. What info individual mods get. And what they may (all) change
20:41:09  <frosch123> i am not that fluent with simutrans, but isn't it like you can only load one mod (pak) at a time?
20:41:16  <Nat_aS> there are so many more options avalable to OTTD modders it's not even funny
20:41:25  <frosch123> i.e. you always have to provide a complete baseset and cannot do small things
20:41:40  <Nat_aS> I'm not sure, but I think so.
20:41:58  <frosch123> well, then compare the number of paks for simutrans with the number of basesets for ottd :p
20:43:12  <planetmaker> :-)
20:43:53  <frosch123> LordAro: anyway, you can compare that library idea with patchpacks
20:44:09  <frosch123> it only works for a few patches and then totally collapses
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20:45:47  <planetmaker> the suggested split of the features in "libraries" is what we advocate for long: one feature per newgrf
20:46:05  <LordAro> i shall probably be sharing this section of the log with the OP, as long as that's alright :)
20:46:10  <planetmaker> doesn't mean that they're magically working well together in a sense of good looking. But means it will work most likely
20:46:18  <planetmaker> @logs
20:46:18  <DorpsGek> planetmaker:
20:46:20  <planetmaker> ^^
20:46:22  <planetmaker> it's public
20:46:33  <frosch123> LordAro: i am a fan of, so reddit is bullshit :p
20:47:28  * planetmaker tries to figure out what teamliquid might be... doesn't quite get the idea from the main page
20:47:43  <frosch123> planetmaker: starcraft 2
20:48:24  <planetmaker> I guess I never really played it
20:49:46  <frosch123> anyway, to stress some myths: tl is the "good, well moderated forum" while reddit is the "unmoderated troll-area" :p
20:49:47  <LordAro> frosch123: :P
20:51:07  <Nat_aS> 4chan is where all the cool kids hang out, Reddit is a bunch of children and newbies
20:51:39  <frosch123> yeah, luckily there are places where no cool children hang out
20:51:58  <Nat_aS> kewl kidz
20:52:31  <frosch123> maybe we can move tt-forums offtopic to reddit :p
20:52:50  <frosch123> reddit is quite suited for offtopic stuff
20:52:52  <Nat_aS> reddit has managed to draw a lot of fail away from 4chan
20:52:56  <LordAro> it isn't really that bad, as long as you don't read the comments :L
20:53:33  <Nat_aS> just like youtube
20:53:56  <frosch123> or :p
20:54:00  <Afdal> wat
20:54:09  <Afdal> when has youtube ever gotten cancer off 4chan
20:54:14  <Afdal> if anything it's brought more to it
20:54:53  <Nat_aS> no i mean youtube is good as long as you don't read the comments
20:55:12  <frosch123> the up-voted comments on yt are usually fine
20:55:14  <Afdal> I'm thinking more along the lines of attention whores
20:55:21  <Nat_aS> that too
20:55:25  <Afdal> hay guise I made you a video
20:55:28  <Afdal> remember to vote 5
20:55:46  <Nat_aS> tits or gtfo
20:55:59  <Afdal> btw im a gurl
20:56:24  <KillSpammer> I'm a gurl too.
20:56:37  <Afdal> Although I'm thinking more of the Let's Play whores currently scumming up /v/
20:56:49  <Afdal> Although livestream probably did more for that than youtube
20:57:14  <LordAro> this place is quite good:
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21:01:39  <Nat_aS>
21:01:41  <Nat_aS> wow
21:01:54  <Nat_aS> first time I read something on reddit that increased my faith in humanity
21:02:48  <LordAro> it is a rare occurrence :)
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21:04:20  <Nat_aS> The "decade long civ2 game" was pretty cool, but the fact that mainstream news sources reported on it like a video game was somehow prophetical negated that.
21:04:52  <NGC3982> wat
21:05:04  <NGC3982> a decade long civ2 game?
21:05:34  <Nat_aS> somebody has been playing the same game of Civ2 on and off for more than 10 years, (He has a life but for some reason he keeps coming back to it)
21:05:42  <Nat_aS> and it's a dystopian future resembling 1984
21:05:56  <Nat_aS> 1700 years of neuclear warfare
21:06:15  <Nat_aS>
21:06:23  <LordAro> pretty cool dat
21:06:35  <LordAro> am i saw it before the media found it! :)
21:06:40  <LordAro> *and i
21:06:41  <NGC3982> Nat_aS: sweet jesus
21:08:07  <frosch123> yeah, when those things get on mainstream media its always like seeing the movie when you already know the book
21:08:46  <frosch123> like, you know already all details, then are amazed that it gets on mainstream, and then you are shocked how wrong the article is :p
21:08:50  <Nat_aS> "I was forced to do away with democracy roughly a thousand years ago because it was endangering my empire," Lycerius writes; his Senate kept overruling him when he wanted to declare war on the Vikings.
21:08:59  <Nat_aS> he however refuses to switch to Fanatasism
21:09:10  <Nat_aS> despite everyone's sugestion
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21:16:42  <NGC3982> :D
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21:40:00  <frosch123> night
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22:36:54  <Wolf01> 'night
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