Log for #openttd on 10th July 2012:
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01:09:32  <drac_boy> hi
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02:10:07  <waterfoul> anyone know what you need to include in order to use _settings_game
02:44:25  <waterfoul> hmmm trunk/src/table/settings.h won't compile
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03:10:57  <waterfoul> I'm having lots of errors when compiling settings.h it starts with error: ‘SLF_SAVE_NO’ was not declared in this scope
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06:23:59  <Terkhen> good morning
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06:43:53  <planetmaker> moin
06:49:23  <Alberth> moin planetmaker, Terkhen
06:50:28  <Terkhen> hi Alberth :)
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07:13:19  <planetmaker> hi Alberth
07:18:30  <dihedral> morning
07:19:24  <planetmaker> salut dihedral
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07:22:56  <dihedral> how are you sir? :)
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07:31:49  <dihedral> Rubidium, the issue i saw yesterday was my mistake - sorry about that
07:32:44  <dihedral> however, in order to avoid this issue from showing up again, is it ok if i provide you with a patch that sets _cur_year and _cur_month /before/ onNewDay() or respectively onNewMonth() is called
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07:47:02  <Alberth> sounds like a good idea, except wouldn't that break existing uses? (I don't know what issue you discussed btw)
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08:27:53  <dihedral> Alberth, it's a difference of setting those values before or after calling onNewDay() or onNewMonth() respectively
08:28:07  * Alberth nods
08:28:14  <dihedral> if (ymd.month == _cur_month) is used to check if a new month has start
08:29:05  <dihedral> ding a bool newMonth = ymd.month == _cur_month; _cur_month = ymd.month; onNewDay(); if(newMonth) ...
08:29:32  <dihedral> would have the affect of _cur_month being accurate even in the code of what gets executed in onNewDay()
08:30:14  <Alberth> yes, but currently it assumes the 'broken' value
08:30:38  <dihedral> the value is only broken at the first of a month ;-)
08:30:50  <Alberth> so that code has to be found and repaired too
08:30:57  <dihedral> _cur_month and _cur_year are broken at the first of the year
08:31:35  <Alberth> and you don't expect that someone hacked around it ?
08:31:40  <dihedral> do you expect something like if == 0 use _cur_month + 1?
08:32:32  <dihedral> Alberth, I expect that if there is a hack around it, it can show up until the next release :-D
08:32:51  <Alberth> no idea, I'd suspect all uses of the variables until proven it does not get called with 'wrong' values
08:33:35  <dihedral> right then - i'll look through all code executed through onNewDay() and onNewMonth() to be 100% sure
08:33:46  * Alberth ponders whether it can end up in a savegame
08:34:22  <dihedral> you store _date ;-)
08:35:02  <Alberth> as long as you don't save a game from within the OnNew{Day,Month} it's ok, I think :)
08:36:27  <Alberth> hmm, "autosave every month" does not sound promising then :(
08:37:20  <dihedral> _date is already updated
08:37:58  * Alberth discovers the new drop-down buttons in the advanced settings, nifty :)
08:38:16  <dihedral> it would be silly to store _date and _cur_year and _cur_month in a save game if the later 2 are calculated out of _date
08:38:42  <Alberth> that would be another patch :)
08:40:18  <dihedral> _cur_date nore _cur_year are used in saving
08:40:29  <dihedral> _cur_year is used in afterload.cpp
08:40:37  <dihedral> which in turn then must be already calculated
08:44:43  <dihedral> \o/
08:44:51  <dihedral> DoDisaster uses _cur_year :-)
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08:45:37  <dihedral> so in theory, a disaster would never get cleared if this part is executed on the 1.1. :-)
08:45:52  <dihedral> because then _cur_year is the same as at the 31.Dec
08:45:59  <dihedral> \o/
08:46:06  <dihedral> so in fact this would fix a bug :-D
08:46:12  <dihedral> that nobody every noticed :-D
08:46:38  <Alberth> \o/
08:54:00  <dihedral> _cur_year also used in ChangeIndustryProduction()
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09:16:02  <welshdragon> Now I know why I don't play OpenTTD much these days... I can't use the latest NewGRF's in Chill's PP :s
09:17:02  <FLHerne> Handrake's PP supports them, although with less crazy patches. Has most of the core ones though
09:17:52  <FLHerne> i.e. timetabling, CDist, bridge/tunnel sharing. Major absence is infra-sharing :-(
09:18:28  <Alberth> welshdragon: depending on your definition of OpenTTD, you may not have played it for much longer ;)
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09:20:18  <welshdragon> Alberth: the thing I like is Chilli's. I'm guessing it'll be 2013 before we get a GRF v6 version thiugh
09:21:32  * planetmaker wonders since when grf v6 is outdated. Certainly for at least two or three years...
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09:22:14  <dihedral> now you have the age of that patch pack ;-)
09:22:14  <planetmaker> welshdragon: most likely many new NewGRFs don't work with chillPP
09:22:23  <planetmaker> dihedral: last summer mostly
09:25:23  <dihedral> Alberth, AddInflation is also affected, not really crucial but the year that inflation should stop will still have inflation added in January
09:25:53  <Alberth> I have that disabled, so I don't care :D
09:26:09  <dihedral> lol
09:26:44  <dihedral> so it seems like it only affects things that should or should not run in January
09:26:46  <Alberth> but it is always surprising how much dirt you can turn up :)
09:27:40  <dihedral> (either should run on the 1.Jan but then get executed on the 2. Jan, or should not run in January but then in turn do not get executed anymore in February)
09:27:53  <dihedral> Alberth, i'll take that as a compliment :-D
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09:31:16  <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> welshdragon: depending on your definition of OpenTTD <-- i'd say "has 'openttd' in its binary name" should suffice :)
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09:33:45  <welshdragon> I've played OpenTTD for seven years, Chill's PP for nearly eight months
09:38:57  <dihedral> i think the first time i entered this channel was dec 2006 or jan 2007 ... iirc
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09:41:52  <jonty-comp> pfft, i have lurked here since the beginning of time
09:42:03  <jonty-comp> emerging occasionally to make a sarcastic comment at a mibbit user
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09:51:16  <dihedral> :q
09:51:59  <Alberth> to quit with a modified file, use :q!
09:54:13  <Eddi|zuHause> nice boy. now fetch that stick again             |
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10:15:11  <dihedral> grrr
10:15:12  <dihedral> ops
10:15:58  <dihedral> i hate it when xchat has focus :-P
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10:19:11  <dihedral> Alberth,
10:22:04  <Alberth> bool newMonth = ymd.month == _cur_month;   <-- looks like "not_new_month" to me :)   (and watch the camel-case)
10:33:25  <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: maybe there is a windowmanager behaviour "never give xchat focus"
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11:10:06  <dihedral> Alberth, :-)
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12:23:07  <dihedral> Alberth, <- better?
12:30:11  <Alberth> the "yes, "does not make a lot of sense any more, imho.   Also, I seem to be missing 'fixes' for bugs that you found
12:31:16  <Alberth> ie the code change of changing the update moment of the year should be separate from the bug fixing that you cause
12:31:34  <Alberth> otherwise no-one is going to find back those changes
12:31:44  <Alberth> (other than by bi-secting)
12:33:11  <Alberth> or the change should be called a bug-fix :p
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12:35:34  <dijkstra> hello
12:35:54  <Alberth> hi
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12:36:59  <Alberth> useful :)
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12:40:17  <dihedral> Alberth, the change is the bug fix
12:41:05  <dihedral> the bugs are that certain things are run in February rather than January, or on the 2nd rather than on the first of Jan
12:41:16  <dihedral> the code further down the line does not need chaning
12:41:20  <dihedral> *changing
12:41:47  <dihedral> this fixes the fact that i.e. a desaster recovery can happen on the 1.Jan
12:41:53  <Alberth> yeah, but my problem is that the patch does not show what you actually fix
12:42:27  <dihedral> ... how should it?
12:42:53  <dihedral> it sets _cur_year and _cur_month before executing any OnNew(Day|Month|Year)() functions
12:43:38  <dihedral> which is mentioned in a comment before setting the variables
12:44:38  <Belugas> hello
12:45:02  <dihedral> i do not quite follow how the patch should emphasize it
12:45:04  <dihedral> hello Belugas
12:45:11  <Alberth> one way is to make it a real code change, ie change the year update and make sure the disaster + production(?) act exactly like they do now, then add a fix patch to correct them again
12:45:11  <Alberth> another way is to see the current patch as bug fix, but then an issue with a discussion of what it fixes is needed at least (although the latter may be useful in the first way too)
12:45:39  <Alberth> dihedral: which is mentioned in a comment before setting the variables <-- no need to repeat what the code already says :)
12:46:07  <dihedral> it just stresses the importance ^^
12:46:35  <Alberth> well, make an issue would be best I think
12:46:53  <Alberth> I am not going to commit it without someone else looking at it too
12:47:55  <Alberth> and they are all doing other things currently, it seems :)
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12:50:46  <dihedral> i totally understand what you mean :-P
12:56:29  <Belugas> i wonder... it it's a new month, it would be logical to test for a new year.  otherwise, it would not
13:00:05  <dihedral> true
13:02:59  <FLHerne> What's all this date stuff about, anyway?
13:03:01  <FLHerne> @logs
13:03:01  <DorpsGek> FLHerne:
13:03:16  <dihedral> however, you want _cur_year to be accurate before running OnNewDay() else the 1st Jan is in the old year
13:03:27  <Belugas> we are trying to re-invent the calendar as you know it :)
13:03:56  * dihedral thinks openttd calendar should end on the 21. Dec. 2012
13:03:58  <dihedral> :-D
13:05:23  <FLHerne> For some strange code reason?
13:06:04  <FLHerne> Perhaps you should switch to the Discordian calendar...
13:06:30  <FLHerne> "Today is Sweetmorn, the 45th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3178"
13:07:13  <Alberth> Nah, the problem is much more generic. We need a number sequence without 'nice' numbers
13:09:24  <FLHerne> Why?
13:11:38  <Alberth> to stop people from giving them special meaning, as they don't get that they cause a number being special in the first place
13:13:43  <FLHerne> Er...and the real reason? :P
13:13:56  <Alberth> what real reason?
13:14:18  <Alberth> ie 1.1 is special only because we one time decided to start counting days in a certain way
13:14:49  <Alberth> so you are just celebrating your own numbering system, nothing more ;)
13:15:02  <FLHerne> Ah. So what problem does that cause?
13:15:35  <Alberth> it's just stupid to give meaning to numbers you picked yourself
13:19:15  <Alberth> eg  11259375  is just as nice as  56789, yet people don't see it because they are stuck in the decimal system :p
13:19:48  <FLHerne> So what do you propose instead?
13:20:14  <Alberth> not give special meaning to numbers at all?
13:21:38  * FLHerne doesn't really see it
13:22:34  <dihedral> today is the 7257839th day
13:22:45  <dihedral> what year you ask? what is a year??
13:23:22  <dihedral> Alberth, that could be very nasty in this world :-D
13:23:39  <Alberth> :)
13:24:21  <Alberth> FLHerne: let me ask it another way, why is 11:07 never a time for a meeting?
13:24:59  <Alberth> why is it always 11:00 or 11:15 ?
13:26:45  <Alberth> but to meet at "660 minutes" to day feels weird. If we measuer a day in minutes, we'd meet at 650 or 700 minutes or so
13:27:21  <Alberth> ie we pick a number system, and then give some numbers special meaning
13:29:46  <Alberth> but we do it for any number system, which makes it a totally ad-hoc meaning :p
13:29:51  <FLHerne> I see. Does OTTD code use years, months etc atm then?
13:30:21  <Alberth> yep
13:30:46  <FLHerne> And you don't want it to?
13:31:09  <Alberth> :D
13:31:26  <FLHerne> Got it :P
13:32:24  <Alberth> hence "we need a number sequence without 'nice' numbers" :D
13:32:42  <Alberth> although it may not exist
13:37:15  <dihedral> actaully openttd works with ticks per day and days
13:37:24  <dihedral> and converts days into year month day format
13:38:19  <FLHerne> Would your new system allow the no. of ticks per year to be varied? That would be convenient
13:39:18  <dihedral> ticks are only per day
13:39:36  <Alberth> you'd end up with the problems of the day-length patches I suspect
13:39:56  <dihedral> Alberth, shall we introduce a leap tick :-D
13:40:19  <Alberth> :D
13:41:30  <Alberth> and vehicles shall drive a bit slower to compensate :D
13:41:46  <FLHerne> Ok...would it be possible to separate displayed/vehicle introduction dates from the ones that payment, production, speed etc are calculated from?
13:42:13  <FLHerne> Wasn't that the problem with (most) daylength patches?
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13:44:16  <Alberth> that's one thing I still like to try, and you can do it entirely in NewGRF I think
13:44:46  <Alberth> just make a NewGRF that has eg steam for 50 years before introducing diesl
13:44:50  <Alberth> *diesel
13:45:13  <Alberth> so around 2050, we have electric :p
13:45:31  <Alberth> no idea why we have those powerplants 100 years early, but who cares :D
13:45:59  <FLHerne> But that would need all grfs modified to match (industries, townsets, RVs, ships...)
13:46:13  <FLHerne> The date would look silly, too :P
13:46:34  <Alberth> why is the date silly?
13:46:47  <Alberth> openttd is not simulation the real world :)
13:46:53  <Alberth> *simulating
13:47:41  <FLHerne> It can, and I prefer it to :P
13:48:12  <Hirundo> In that case, it might be better to display the year as "Year 1" instead of "1950", to make clear that it's not realistic (tm)
13:48:33  <FLHerne> There are enough 'realistic' GRFs that it can come quite close (other than the 45 degree angles, of course :P )
13:51:04  <Alberth> FLHerne: imho trying to mimic reality is not the best solution for play, I hate having to choose between 30 engines
13:52:19  <FLHerne> Differences of opinion then. I hate being constrained to 3... :P
13:52:59  * Belugas raises his mug to Hirundo!
13:53:17  <Belugas> and to Alberth!!
13:53:48  <Alberth> cheers :)
13:54:12  <FLHerne> I also keep practically every station set loaded, in case I need one tile from some obscure one :P
13:55:23  <FLHerne> Thanks for making a game with so many potential playing styles, anyway :D
13:56:51  <Afdal> I wish there were more unrealistic newGRFs :(
13:58:06  <Afdal> Whatever happened that that NUTS project
13:58:44  <Afdal> oh wait a second
13:58:52  <Afdal> oh god, it's been released hasn't it
13:58:58  <Alberth> we need more toyland NewGRFs!
13:59:26  <Afdal> oh goooood
13:59:29  <Afdal> when did I miss this
14:00:10  <Alberth> look at the release date :p
14:03:09  <Belugas> in which format ? ;)
14:08:58  <Alberth> any format, but relative to the speed of the earth flying through the universe would be useful :)
14:10:05  <Alberth> hmm, does that even exist? :)
14:10:56  <dihedral> Alberth, but you could close FS 4632 :-P
14:13:16  <Alberth> doesn't look like everybody would agree with that action ;)
14:13:32  <FLHerne> @fs 4632
14:13:32  <DorpsGek> FLHerne:
14:13:57  <dihedral> really?
14:13:59  <dihedral> interesting
14:14:24  <dihedral> Alberth, well apart of the reporter?
14:25:21  <dihedral> can a GS create a cost for a company?
14:25:51  <FLHerne> Does anyone here know how to use the AV8 maintenance-cost parameter?
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14:26:39  <FLHerne> The text/description are rather ambiguous, and I'm not sure which choice is which :-(
14:28:28  <FLHerne> Also, eGRVTS2 is a great improvement :D
14:41:27  <dihedral> i still have the dream of creating a penalty cost :-P
14:41:59  <dihedral> you as an admin need to get grips on a player - fine the company - or force a give money command as company #
14:45:06  * NGC3982 makes lemonade
14:45:24  <Alberth> GS can act as a company, not sure what it can do w.r.t. money
14:46:44  <dihedral> yeah - but 'acting' as a company does not mean i could add a cost under 'other' of say 20 million $
14:46:48  <dihedral> :-P
14:50:54  <Alberth> taking or giving money should be possible probably, perhaps with an accompanying news item
14:51:09  <Alberth> so it stays transparent who is giving/paying money
14:51:43  <dihedral> that would really be fun :-D
14:52:00  <dihedral> has to be queued as a DoCommand though
14:53:11  <Alberth> I always wondered whether getting caught bribing should be a news item too :p
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14:57:16  <dihedral> Alberth, i think so too, it's a boo boo :-D
15:11:01  <Afdal> Does anyone know if it would be possible to make a newGRF engine impossible to breakdown, with breakdowns enabled?
15:11:24  <Afdal> A breakdown-enabled logic engine sure would be nice
15:13:49  <Terkhen> I'm not sure but I don't think that's possible
15:14:13  <planetmaker> Neither do I think it's feasible
15:16:34  <dihedral> so a 'reliability' of 100% could still cause a breakdown to be triggered?
15:16:42  <planetmaker> yes
15:16:51  <dihedral> hih that's funny
15:17:00  <planetmaker> iirc there's table which relates the reliability to a breakdown counter
15:17:14  <planetmaker> which is rolled a dice against
15:17:23  <dihedral> \o/
15:17:33  <planetmaker> s/counter/number
15:18:18  <Afdal> that's too bad
15:18:35  <Afdal> is it possible to hope for a feature request someday?
15:19:00  <Afdal> logic trains are such a neat emergent property of OpenTTD and it's a shame that you can only use them with breakdowns off
15:20:14  <Afdal> maybe just an option to selectively turn off that RNG for newgrfs
15:23:48  <Pinkbeast> Well, a way to say "this vehicle never breaks down" would not really hurt, in a newgrf.
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15:24:53  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast: why?
15:25:08  <planetmaker> either you play with breakdowns: then it's usual that *every* vehicle may break down
15:25:17  <planetmaker> or you don't play with them. And then no vehicle breaks down
15:25:28  <planetmaker> there's no 100% reliability
15:25:40  <planetmaker> so, playing with a logic engine and "realistic" settings is folly anyway
15:26:20  <planetmaker> and tbh, I don't want to give NewGRFs the option to disable breakdowns
15:26:31  <planetmaker> it's not their can of beer
15:27:36  <Pinkbeast> ISTR some newgrfs introduce what are effectively dummy powered vehicles for spacing &c, and surely they should not go breaking down?
15:28:49  <planetmaker> only the lead engine can break down
15:28:58  <planetmaker> and "dummy" lead engines is a hack
15:29:27  <planetmaker> not worth introducing further complications
15:32:19  <Afdal> that's really too bad :(
15:32:56  * Alberth wants all engines to break down every now and then!
15:33:09  <CornishPasty> At the same time? You monster!
15:34:49  <dihedral> Alberth, how about a disaster: war :-D
15:35:25  <NGC3982> simultanus break downs is a god damnet relief.
15:35:26  <Alberth> out of the scope of the game, it's not family-friendly
15:35:28  <NGC3982> damned*
15:35:35  <Pinkbeast> Only the lead engine can break down - but if breakdowns ever work in a less totally aggravating fashion, the consequences will be different for double-headed trains
15:35:47  <dihedral> teddy bear wars? "it's so fluffy"
15:36:12  <Pinkbeast> family-friendly: well, neither is driving a diesel shunter over your opponents' fully loaded busses. # yeah, kidding, don't want war in OTTD either
15:36:14  <Alberth> dihedral: I am afraid you have to have your pillow wars on your own bed :D
15:36:24  <dihedral> :-(
15:36:26  <dihedral> nofair
15:36:31  <dihedral> :-P
15:36:43  * NGC3982 kicks of season 7 of star trek tng
15:36:57  <dihedral> poor sod :-D
15:37:34  <dihedral> funny actually how i stubled of the date thing in openttd - i was trying to fix the date handling in my bot :-P
15:37:39  <dihedral> ammusing
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16:12:13  <MiraCZ> hey there
16:12:23  <MiraCZ> I'd like to ask if there is an hosting for OpenTTD
16:12:33  <MiraCZ> I cant have my PC 24/7 online
16:12:45  <NGC3982> seriosly
16:12:52  <NGC3982> the swedish media are in some sort of zombie state today
16:13:17  <__ln__> MiraCZ: virtual servers are available commercially
16:13:41  <NGC3982> a woman cries out in our biggest "newspaper" (note the quotation marks) about not being allowed on a big roller coaster
16:13:51  <NGC3982> since she was fat enough to risk the lifes of all the others on the coaster
16:14:25  <MiraCZ> Is it hard to setup OpenTTD server on VPS?
16:15:03  <NGC3982> of course, the newspaper and the somewhat so-heavy-she'll-create-some-sort-of-singularity lady missed that this coaster (balder) was the only one that had a queue beginning with "please try this fake chair first - or no-go!"
16:17:35  <MiraCZ> or does anyone here offer server for little price? :)
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16:19:10  <NGC3982> MiraCZ: there are several forums posts regarding using VPS for OpenTTD servers. have a google on "OpenTTD + VPS" or visit this particular one:
16:19:45  <NGC3982> for most systems, there should be no problem - even with virtual ones.
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16:22:07  <Terkhen> MiraCZ: with regard to difficulty; as long as you are comfortable with rcon and the console, managing it is not very complicated
16:22:20  <Terkhen> to my knowledge there is no updated remote managing program though
16:24:38  <NGC3982> im not sure on how a server is configured on a linux system, but i guess SSH would solve most problems with remote configuration
16:24:55  <NGC3982> if rcon is set aside.
16:25:12  <MiraCZ> ok
16:25:16  <MiraCZ> thank you
16:39:59  <NGC3982> <- look at this. it's 2045 (non-grf game).
16:40:15  <NGC3982> how come i cant replace the balogh truck, with the goss truck?
16:42:00  <Alberth> how come a truck from 1935 still exists?
16:42:35  <Alberth> but I don't know why :(
16:42:47  <NGC3982> i have no idea.
16:42:49  <NGC3982> :P
16:43:11  <Terkhen> vehicles never expire must be on
16:43:44  <NGC3982> it's off
16:43:57  <NGC3982> but the goss goods truck is still available, and i can buy it manually?
16:44:01  <Terkhen> and since the Goss appears with a 0, I guess that you have a Goss -> Balogh replacement already
16:44:21  <Terkhen> the game will not let you have circular replacements
16:44:35  <NGC3982> ah!
16:44:44  <NGC3982> it works.
16:44:46  <NGC3982> Terkhen: thank you.
16:47:13  <Terkhen> good :)
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17:05:16  <Eddi|zuHause> what if i set goss->balough in a group. and then balough->goss in the all-group?
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17:07:57  <andythenorth> lo
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17:10:28  * andythenorth ponders how to make ottd for toddlers
17:10:40  <andythenorth> he is 2 years 5 months
17:10:43  <andythenorth> he likes ottd a lot
17:11:20  <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: worth a try, I guess it is allowed then :P
17:11:34  <andythenorth> "I want people there" -> points to football pitch
17:11:36  <andythenorth> "no people"
17:11:58  <andythenorth> apparently we need NewPeople
17:12:04  <andythenorth> really quite wanted here
17:13:25  <andythenorth> hmm
17:13:39  <Eddi|zuHause> only if they "walk" to destinations
17:13:42  <andythenorth> BANDIT trucks should shorten their trailer when it's invisible
17:13:46  <andythenorth> :|
17:14:09  <Eddi|zuHause> it would be helpful to shorten vehicles to 0
17:15:17  <andythenorth> doesn't that blow stuff up somehow?
17:15:27  <Eddi|zuHause> certainly
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17:16:03  <Eddi|zuHause> but the HEQS refit magic doesn't work in CETS, because each vehicle consists of 3 vehicles already, and their position is relevant for the curve magic
17:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause> we need NewMagic
17:17:23  <andythenorth> did I mention the Wooden Train grf idea?
17:17:46  <FLHerne> Yes :P
17:17:52  <andythenorth> our geometry is pretty similar to wooden trains
17:18:00  <FLHerne> It was a good one :-)
17:18:36  <Alberth>  <-- andythenorth
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17:18:48  * andythenorth will try later
17:19:17  <FLHerne> Presumably would be easy to do with 3D models? Nice simple shapes...
17:19:51  * Alberth ponders wooden smoke
17:20:34  <NGC3982> bah, this talk about smoke :(
17:21:00  <andythenorth> yes, CGI would be good for wooden train
17:23:46  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r24392 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#5239]: Use the 'all vehicles' group for the autoreplace window from the vehicle list.
17:24:19  <frosch123> hmm, xkcd has a twitter
17:24:30  <frosch123> one tweet, 11242 folowers
17:24:54  <andythenorth> what happens if we use 2x and 4x zoom on the GUI?
17:25:03  <andythenorth> can I haz my eyes back?
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17:32:25  <frosch123> use the biggui grf
17:32:35  <Wolf01> hello o/
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17:34:06  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24393 /trunk/src/lang/ (finnish.txt hungarian.txt korean.txt):
17:34:06  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:34:06  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:34:06  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: hungarian - 8 changes by Brumi
17:34:06  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 4 changes by telk5093
17:35:03  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Suggestion: Non-track CHIPS tiles as NewObjects?
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17:35:45  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: glx * r24394 /trunk/src/video/win32_v.cpp: -Fix (r24188): changing resolution didn't resize the window
17:36:45  <Alberth> FLHerne: but then you cannot have cargo on them
17:38:24  <FLHerne> Alberth: True, but in some situations that isn't necessary. NewObject plain tiles would allow dock areas to be finished off properly
17:39:21  <Alberth> FLHerne: make a newobject grf yourself?  it's all gpl
17:39:52  <FLHerne> Alberth: True. Might be a simple first grf, actually :-)
17:40:15  <FLHerne> Hopefully NML supports NewObjects?
17:40:18  <Alberth> I would expect so :)
17:40:35  <Alberth> I think it does
17:40:50  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
17:41:00  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
17:41:06  <Wolf01> hi Wolf01
17:41:21  <FLHerne> hi Wolf01
17:41:30  <FLHerne> Alberth: Good. Might keep me occupied and stop me making pointless suggestions for a while...
17:42:16  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
17:42:18  <Terkhen> :D
17:42:33  <Wolf01> ok, let's go from the start again
17:43:07  <Alberth> FLHerne: before you know it, you'll be a productive member of this community ;)
17:43:23  <FLHerne> Aaargh! :P
17:43:59  <Alberth> and you suddenly get commit rights everywhere :p
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17:47:24  <Terkhen> but also a lot of responsibility!
17:47:37  <Terkhen> and then, one terrible day, you find yourself answering to pointless suggestions on IRC
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17:58:52  <Alberth> or the issue tracker :D
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18:03:59  * FLHerne shudders :P
18:09:03  <Terkhen> :D
18:22:39  <NGC3982> fat.
18:26:26  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r24395 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Doc: Fixed argument references in @param descriptions.
18:29:34  <Sacro> \o/
18:31:28  <andythenorth> non-track-bit stations on all slopes?
18:31:51  <andythenorth> or we just allow the crazy 'trains climb 1height level thing' :)
18:32:04  <andythenorth> worth patching locally if you haven't seen it ;)
18:34:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the problem is this awful "fallback" mechanism when a station set is not loaded
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18:34:29  <andythenorth> sounds broken
18:34:40  <andythenorth> the grf is missing, ergo the savegame is broken no?
18:34:48  <Chris_Booth> hi
18:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause> no
18:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> all it needs is storing the "non track" bit in the map array
18:40:33  <andythenorth> make it so!
18:40:51  <andythenorth> then we have better stations on coasts :)
18:41:00  <andythenorth> not sure it solves it actually
18:41:08  <andythenorth> anyway, andythenorth -> pub
18:41:10  <andythenorth> bye
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18:43:23  <Peter2> servers
18:43:28  <Peter2> !servers
18:44:51  <Alberth> doesn't work in #openttd :)
18:45:24  <Alberth> but the site has a web-page with them
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19:02:31  <NGC3982> bah, i still cant get autoreplace to work - again.
19:02:52  <NGC3982> oh
19:02:53  <NGC3982> wait
19:02:57  <NGC3982> it suddenly works
19:02:59  <NGC3982> \o/
19:03:43  <NGC3982> and it stops working again.
19:04:57  <Hirundo> got enough money?
19:05:22  <NGC3982> yes, billons and billion
19:05:29  <NGC3982> ..s and billions.
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19:20:23  <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: I wondered, are there also non-track waypoints?
19:20:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: not yet :)
19:20:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think the specs forbid it...
19:21:05  <Eddi|zuHause> waypoint is just a magic station class
19:21:52  <Hirundo> "not yet", meaning "it's possible, but no-one has made such a newgrf yet"?
19:22:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:22:48  <Hirundo> specs make no distinction between stations/waypoints IIRC
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19:43:30  <frosch123> you will have trouble building waypoints with a platform length > 1
19:43:53  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: just place two after each other?
19:44:27  <frosch123> never tried that
19:44:44  <frosch123> but they will not exactly join like a platform
19:45:11  <Eddi|zuHause> they can do the same adjacency checks as stations
19:45:31  <frosch123> yeah, but there is something like "build as one part" and "build in two parts"
19:45:54  <frosch123> though somewhen in the past that behaved different for stations and waypoints
19:46:04  <frosch123> no idea whether that got fixed since dragable waypoints
19:46:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it used to be that separate waypoints behaved like a single one wrt graphics, but that got changed...
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19:49:58  <Eddi|zuHause> gnah i hate touchpads...
19:50:10  <Eddi|zuHause> can i configure a touchpad to not "click" on touch?
19:50:19  <frosch123> get a touchscreen
19:50:23  <Nat_aS> depending on the machine yes,
19:50:29  <frosch123> then you can hate that one
19:50:41  <Nat_aS> synaptic drivers usualy have an option for that in properties
19:50:50  <Nat_aS> what kind of computer?
19:51:10  <Eddi|zuHause> some old toshiba laptop with windows 7
19:51:20  <Eddi|zuHause> or vista, not sure
19:51:52  <Nat_aS> well assuming the pad is made by synaptic, click the little arrow in the system tray, and find the icon for touchpad
19:52:04  <Nat_aS> or just go into mouse properties in the controll pannel
19:52:16  <Nat_aS> it's one of the first things i do if i get a new laptop
19:53:14  <Eddi|zuHause> it's constantly clicking while i move the pointer, it's not even funny...
19:53:28  <Nat_aS> :C
19:54:35  <Eddi|zuHause> it says "no access to synaptics device" when i click on mouse properties
19:56:04  <Nat_aS> oh dear
19:56:21  <Nat_aS> is there an icon for synaptics in the controll pannel?
19:56:32  <Nat_aS> sometimes the driver is it's own thing
19:56:46  <Nat_aS> if that dosn't work, then it's safe to say you have a problem
19:56:50  <Nat_aS> perhaps with the driver itself
19:57:08  <Eddi|zuHause> it says "synaptics ps/2 device" in the hardware tab
19:57:17  <Nat_aS> get a USB mouse in the meantime and research it
19:57:28  <frosch123> or ask one of your cats
19:57:45  <Nat_aS> yeah but in the control panel,  sometimes the synaptics driver get's it's own icon.
19:58:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: but then it wouldn't complain about synaptics devices if it wasn't the synaptics driver
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20:06:28  <Eddi|zuHause> the weird thing is, it deactivated the clicking, but i haven't actually changed any settings...
20:06:44  <Hirundo> frosch123: OpenTTD source tells me that Action1 spriteset IDs are feature-specific, but the specs aren't very specific about that
20:07:24  <Hirundo> Can I assume that behaviour (and possibly update the specs) or is it an implementation detail that I shouldn't rely on?
20:07:32  <frosch123> i think we only made them feature specific together with extact1
20:07:51  <Hirundo> yes
20:08:01  <frosch123> likely nforenum won't like it
20:08:06  <frosch123> and ttdp won't like it anyway
20:08:09  <Hirundo> before that, there was only one action1  'active'
20:08:29  <frosch123> anyway, let's check my logs
20:08:36  <frosch123> we dicussed that during extact1 design
20:08:50  <Hirundo> NML grfs are only eaten by ottd >= 1.2 anyways, so nforenum/ttdp don't matter much
20:10:53  <frosch123> <- haha, there is still the TODO item :p
20:11:10  <frosch123> so, the discussion was whether mixing should be allowed to share sprites between features
20:12:50  <Hirundo> Is there a use case for that, that doesn't violate the "one $thing per newgrf"-rule too badly?
20:13:45  <frosch123> yes, if we allow industries to place newobjects :)
20:13:59  <frosch123> anyway, you can always still duplicate the sprites
20:15:27  <Eddi|zuHause> eyecandy stations vs. objects
20:17:10  <frosch123> Hirundo: yexo was clearly favouring the do-not-mix-features approach
20:17:19  <Hirundo> duplicating is pretty trivial in NML, and with grfv2 you don't even need to duplicate the actual sprite data
20:17:34  <frosch123> i don't find an objective argument in the logs though
20:17:40  <frosch123> just "yes, please" :p
20:18:18  <frosch123> Hirundo: i noticed that nml duplicates on its own. in debug vehicles i used the same spriteset for trains, rv and tramd
20:18:23  <frosch123> and nml just made it work :)
20:19:42  <Hirundo> and I wondered, if anyone would ever use that :-)
20:19:45  <frosch123> Hirundo: if you want to check back yourself, devzone 15 june 2011 contains most
20:20:03  <frosch123> there are multiple usecases, non-cases and alternatives
20:20:13  <frosch123> including a featue FF if a spriteset shall apply to everything
20:21:21  <Hirundo> Unless there is a compelling reason, I suggest no changes
20:21:38  <Hirundo> saves coding, hence more time for discussion ;-)
20:22:27  <Hirundo> The duplication-argument is pretty moot anyways with grfv2
20:22:51  <frosch123> oh, right, there was another feature in that direction
20:23:38  <Hirundo> at least when using NML (after I coded that feature), I don't know how smart grfcodec is
20:24:55  <Hirundo> Michi requested it, albeit for different reasons:
20:26:27  <frosch123> i think grfcodec just uses the spritenumber as id
20:26:33  <frosch123> so, it cannot deduplicate
20:26:54  <frosch123> i guess everyone was hoping for nml :p
20:27:53  <Hirundo> anyways, if we decide to keep the current behaviour, it should be documented in the specs, right?
20:28:39  <frosch123> only for the ext. format then
20:29:21  <frosch123> hmm, nah, just write for ottd >= 1.2
20:29:35  <frosch123> else people would think that it does not apply for the normal format :)
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20:41:27  <LordAro> evenings
20:41:39  <Hirundo> frosch123: documentation done, could you check that it makes sense?
20:42:37  <Terkhen> good night
20:44:00  <frosch123> looks fine
20:44:30  <frosch123> thanks :)
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20:54:19  <LordAro> so, in summary, my patch is fine, but due to bananas needing changes, it won't be implemented, yes?
20:57:15  <frosch123> i like it also without bananas extension
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21:01:49  <LordAro> well commit it then :P
21:02:18  <frosch123> did not look at it yet
21:04:02  <LordAro> :P
21:04:12  <LordAro> <-- i have a new desktop background :)
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21:24:08  <FLHerne> LordAro: Impressive background :D
21:24:19  <FLHerne> Anyone here played 0AD?
21:24:37  * FLHerne wonders whether to try it out
21:26:10  <dihedral> what use would that have? :-P
21:26:31  <Rubidium> OpenTTD only starts in 1AD
21:26:48  <FLHerne> No, the AoE-ish OSS game :P
21:26:58  <Wolf01> 'night
21:27:00  * FLHerne needs to be clearer, clearly :-(
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21:27:10  <LordAro> i played AoE[II] fairly exensively
21:27:44  <FLHerne> As did I. That's why I was looking at
21:28:08  <FLHerne> Unsure whether it's worth downloading (yet) though
21:29:36  <LordAro> sounds like another ripoff of AoE if you ask me...
21:29:43  <LordAro> wait, it's free :)
21:29:50  <FLHerne> Yeah, but an open-source one :D
21:29:58  <FLHerne> Aargh, need to type faster :P
21:30:22  <glx> it's started from scratch IIRC
21:32:49  <LordAro> as long as it's not like freeciv, sounds good :)
21:33:12  <FLHerne> I tried FreeCiv. It seemed totally incomprehensible :-(
21:34:49  <LordAro> it's just not CivII...
21:36:46  <FLHerne> Never played the commercial ones, so can't compare against them, but even AoE I had better graphics/gameplay/UI than FreeCiv, IMO
21:37:01  * FLHerne downloads 0AD
21:38:22  <LordAro> FreeCiv is just so counter-intuitive, at least to me (who's played II, III and IV)
21:38:28  <LordAro> i got bored quickly :L
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21:51:54  <frosch123> night
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22:07:47  <FLHerne> It's quite impressive, actually :-)
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22:29:45  <Eddi|zuHause> after playing Civ IV and V, i can
22:29:54  <Eddi|zuHause> 't possibly go back to Civ II rules
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22:33:29  <Pinkbeast> Civ IV was the first that didn't make me think "I'd rather be playing Civ n-1"
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22:51:06  <waterfoul>  I can't compile settings.cpp, errors: I'm gonna guess an include file is missing
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23:19:09  <Eddi|zuHause> waterfoul: very likely the real problem is in a completely different place
23:20:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: i never had that feeling about any civ (though i skipped III)
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23:37:29  <Eddi|zuHause> where does virt-manager (or qemu?) save the vm's metadata?
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