Log for #openttd on 11th July 2012:
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00:56:43  <Pinkbeast> Eddi: honestly, II, Call to Power, III, Alpha Centauri, even Freeciv...
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05:30:07  <Rubidium> waterfoul: what version are you actually trying to compile? Doesn't look like anything recent-ish to me
05:30:41  <Rubidium> more like rather ancient
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06:24:14  <Terkhen> good morning
06:24:30  <NGC3982> please, dont make me start playing civ again
06:24:35  <NGC3982> i have just aquired a life.
06:24:36  <NGC3982> :(
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06:36:16  <dihedral> good morning
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06:50:32  <Terkhen> good morning dihedral
06:50:37  <dihedral> :-)
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06:51:03  <dihedral> a ludde?
06:51:12  <dihedral> hej hej
06:51:49  <ludde> hej
06:51:53  <Terkhen> NGC3982: I won't tell you about the many civilization IV mods, then
06:52:08  <Terkhen> hi ludde
06:53:20  <NGC3982> Terkhen: :)
06:53:28  * NGC3982 played civ2 as a kid
06:53:55  <Terkhen> I started with 1, having no idea
06:54:01  <Terkhen> some freeciv
06:54:09  <Terkhen> and then 4
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08:33:11  <peter1138> Hmm, anyone use TinyCa generated SSL certificates?
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09:27:53  <dihedral> peter1138, i only have certificates
09:28:12  <dihedral> they are free :-)
09:28:44  <peter1138> Yeah, just I used this CA for years before that sort of stuff existed.
09:28:59  <peter1138> Internal CA for internal stuff, kinda thing.
09:29:29  <peter1138> Only issue is that for some reason Windows often won't let me assign a TinyCA generated certificate to RDP
09:30:51  <peter1138> (And I need to use the internal CA for identity certificates too)
09:32:33  <blathijs> peter1138: Perhaps the certificates have the wrong role or usage type (or whatever it's called...)
09:37:04  <peter1138> Hmm, nsCertType is "SSL Server"
09:37:14  <peter1138> keyUsage / extendedKeyUsage are not set.
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09:43:08  <peter1138> Right, I'll try changing that and having a go...
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10:10:53  <peter1138> blathijs, great, that did the job. Thanks for the hint.
10:11:00  <blathijs> :-)
10:12:12  <peter1138> Now if only the Linux RDP client would support TLS :-(
10:12:49  <peter1138> Can't be impossible, I have one on my phone that manages it.
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10:17:19  <peter1138> Okay, possible xfreerdp, but Squeeze's version is too old... :S
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10:17:46  <peter1138> Yup, the Wheezy version is good.
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10:21:04  <peter1138> And X11 doesn't listen on tcp anymore. Hmm.
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11:52:21  <NGC3982> having the new improved zoom in mind, is there any plans on increasing zoom levels for the map window aswell?
11:54:07  <FLHerne> What would the point be? It shows the things it's designed to show fine already
12:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: it was decided a while ago to not include map zoom (in)
12:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause> (there was a patch for that, but only the zoom out part was included)
12:02:13  <Alberth> euhm, I rewrote the entire patch :)
12:02:49  <Eddi|zuHause> quite possible :)
12:04:23  <Alberth> and as FLHerne already said, I did not see any point in adding zoom-in
12:05:08  <Alberth> in fact, today, I'd favour merging main display and minimap window
12:05:34  <Alberth> with the major problem being what to do with the bottom part of the minimap that explains the symbols
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12:06:44  * Alberth ponders not adding a minimap to FreeRCT
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12:07:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: a "map toolbar" similar to the transparency toolbar, that allows showing some overlay data?
12:08:41  <Alberth> perhaps
12:08:42  <Eddi|zuHause> some hybrid of the 64x zoom out patch and the catchment/town area overlay patch (which i forgot the name of)
12:08:46  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: i see. thank you.
12:09:17  <NGC3982> FLHerne: nothing particulary practical. i usually use the map to keep my eye on potential clogs and wait-makers.
12:09:20  <NGC3982> :)
12:09:45  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: use extra viewports (V key)?
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12:11:07  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: town area overlay?  how would that come into play?
12:11:16  <Alberth> hi glx
12:11:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: it had a separate window where you could select what to show in the overlays
12:11:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: also cargodist has a window to select overlays
12:11:55  <Alberth> ah, that would seem useful :)
12:17:46  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: yes, that is a neat option.
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12:31:57  <Hirundo> Alberth: I'm currently looking into your NML patch for andy's crash in FISH r749
12:32:43  <Hirundo> But if I do 'make', I get lots of nfo (including warnings, my renum might be ancient) but no NML anywhere
12:32:53  <Hirundo> Do I need to change some config setting?
12:33:05  <Alberth> make on fish?
12:33:35  <Alberth> run ./
12:33:49  <Hirundo> ah, thanks
12:35:20  <Alberth> I am not sure what exactly the right point is in checking existence
12:52:19  <Hirundo> get_translation is also used when outputting strings (in action4 etc), best not touch that
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13:01:09  <Hirundo> Alberth: I applied your fix a little higher in the call stack, thanks for the patch
13:01:48  <Alberth> ok, thanks for checking & fixing :)
13:06:16  <Belugas> hello
13:06:22  <Alberth> hello
13:17:20  * Belugas was "rediscovering" the Rolling Stones, yesterday evening. Was playing Gimme Shelter and Paint In Black on the garden, after sunset.
13:17:53  <Belugas> and a neighbour came in, with his guitar, and we both kept on playing those :D
13:18:04  <Belugas> that was... a thrill
13:18:56  <Alberth> something to repeat one evening :)
13:22:15  <Belugas> yeah, i guess.  would be lovely if i could do it with Truebrain, though
13:22:37  <Belugas> or, even better, with peter1138, but on his keyboard!
13:23:03  <Belugas> mh.. that would start to look like woodstock...
13:25:42  <peter1138> Unlikely, my keyboard is playing silly buggers.
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13:26:19  <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: I'm not sure if I should consider a bug or a feature request
13:26:27  <peter1138> If I press fairly hard it'll send the proper note-on then a note-off and a quiet note-on
13:26:52  <peter1138> I guess there's a continuity issue somewhere.
13:27:10  <Belugas> ooops
13:27:12  <peter1138> But I haven't figure out how to take the keybed apart to diagnose it.
13:27:16  <peter1138> *figured
13:27:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: does that matter?
13:28:27  <peter1138> Could even be one of the ribbon cables has a dodgy connection I suppose.
13:28:33  <Hirundo> If it's a feature request, I have a reason not to implement it :-) as it's quite complicated
13:28:55  <dihedral> o/
13:29:03  <Belugas> looks like you have to test everything then... it does that on all keys?
13:29:10  <peter1138> Not all.
13:29:26  <peter1138> But large chunks :S
13:29:26  <Belugas> mmmh
13:30:00  <peter1138> Btw, anyone want to buy a MIDI keyboard? Immaculate condition, works perfectly? :p
13:30:14  <Hirundo> Basically, you need to parse the string for all languages that have one or more substrings defined, but you only know which languages have substrings defined after you have parsed the string
13:30:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: well let's phrase it this way: it caught me as "unexpected behaviour"
13:31:23  <Hirundo> Would you expect translated bits to appear in an otherwise english string?
13:31:31  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
13:32:21  <Belugas> lol @ peter1138
13:32:29  <Eddi|zuHause> well the use case were "language agnostic" composition strings, like "STR_TWO_LINES:{STRING}{}{STRING}"
13:32:56  <Belugas> i have to admit, repairing my guit seems a bit easier ;)
13:33:04  <Eddi|zuHause> which i have to duplicate for each language, even though it won't ever change
13:33:10  <Belugas> but granted, there is far less hardware!
13:33:38  <peter1138> Yeah, they're a lot simpler.
13:33:51  <Eddi|zuHause> or the vehicle names, which are composed from a "universal" part and some "translated" parts
13:37:12  <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: I can understand the use case, but I can't think of a reasonable implementation (yet)
13:37:56  <Belugas> got to say, though, i feel bad for you.  So you're going to try to repair it or get a new one?
13:38:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: i don't know enough about the internals of nml, but my "strategy" would be to go through all parameters of the string, collect which languages have these parameters defined, and then generating the total string for these languages
13:38:55  <Eddi|zuHause> assuming the parameters are defined before starting to parse the string
13:40:24  <Eddi|zuHause> so you go through the string once to determine the languages, and then once for each language
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13:40:54  <Eddi|zuHause> and then you remember the languages in the symbol table
13:41:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. each string in the symbol table has a set of languages
13:43:48  * Hirundo spots light bulb
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13:53:26  * Belugas brings candles.
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14:50:21  <NGC3982> for normal industries, production seems to halt after 2300 tonnes/year
14:50:37  <NGC3982> i fail to find documentation about it
14:51:07  <NGC3982> is this correct, or am i missing something? ;)
14:51:34  <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: Here you go :-)
14:56:09  <planetmaker> NGC3982: that is approx. correct.
14:56:44  <planetmaker> the industry can produce 256*8 or 256*9 units per month (depending on month length and timing)
14:56:50  <planetmaker> @calc 256*8
14:56:50  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 2048
14:57:08  <NGC3982> planetmaker: i see!
14:57:14  <planetmaker> primary industries produce every... X ticks
14:57:39  <planetmaker> ans it fits either 8 or 9 times into a month
14:59:13  <planetmaker> @calc 72*30
14:59:13  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 2160
14:59:31  <planetmaker> @calc 72*30/8
14:59:31  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 270
14:59:52  <planetmaker> @calc 72*30/9
14:59:52  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 240
15:16:28  <Eddi|zuHause> you have an obiwan and an obitwo
15:16:43  <Alberth> or two obiwans :)
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15:16:59  <Alberth> but with the same spin direction
15:17:22  <Eddi|zuHause> a doubiwan ;)
15:17:28  <Chrill> Is there something wrong with BaNaNas? I keep trying to upload a Scenario but gets the answer "Unhandled Exception" and this has been ongoing for about two weeks
15:18:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Chrill: more details
15:18:06  <Alberth> which scenario?
15:18:27  <Chrill> uhm.. for 1.2.X, scenario called Archipielago Hermoso, 512x512 temperate with NewGRFs from bananas only
15:18:36  <Chrill>
15:18:58  <Alberth> TrueBrain:  ^^
15:20:08  <TrueBrain>
15:20:09  <TrueBrain> Alberth: ^^
15:20:11  <TrueBrain> :D
15:20:48  <Alberth> np
15:21:07  <Alberth> Chrill: do you want to add a bug to the website or should I?
15:21:19  <Chrill> I'm not sure what the bug really is, to be honest
15:21:24  <Chrill> It could just be my scenario
15:21:31  <Chrill> but I have no alternative scenario to upload for testing
15:21:35  <TrueBrain> at the very basic upload your file there etc
15:21:49  <TrueBrain> like with an OpenTTD crash, basically :)
15:22:02  <Alberth> the bug is that you cannot upload, I think ;)
15:22:06  <Chrill> fair enough :p
15:22:09  <Chrill> I'll file a report
15:22:14  <Alberth> ok, thanks
15:22:48  <TrueBrain> for feature reference: BaNaNaS should never give an error; waiting for it won't make it magically go away, so please always file a bug report when you hit one :)
15:23:13  <Chrill> Absolutely
15:23:24  <Chrill> Category: no such thing as a bananas category, I guess Core is fair?
15:23:25  <TrueBrain> often it are corner cases in the files inside the uploaded file
15:23:31  <TrueBrain> there is a Website project
15:23:39  <TrueBrain> I wish FlySpray would show it more clear, but ... what can I say :P
15:24:14  <Alberth> Chrill: at the top-left, it says "OpenTTD" there are also other projects
15:24:30  <Alberth> TrueBrain: shall I file a bug? :D
15:24:38  <TrueBrain> FlySpray is kinda dead
15:24:40  <TrueBrain> I am unsure it will help
15:24:53  <TrueBrain> I really should deploy Jira to show it to you guys, but ... ugh .. time etc bladiebla
15:24:53  * Alberth nods
15:25:17  <Alberth> I was going to file one in the website project about FS being in need of replacement :D
15:27:24  <Chrill> Done!
15:27:27  <Chrill> Thanks for the help
15:27:43  <TrueBrain> tnx Chrill
15:27:49  <TrueBrain> will look at it hopefully later tonight
15:27:59  <TrueBrain> but honesty, that depends on how drunk I will get
15:28:18  <Chrill> Hopefully there should be some sort of log in BaNaNaS that will show I tried to upload and failed, no?
15:28:40  <TrueBrain> I just upload it in my test env, and it will tell me all kinds of things I don't want to read :P
15:28:49  <Chrill> lol
15:29:08  <TrueBrain> hmm, you only uploaded the .scn, not packed in any file?
15:30:12  <Chrill> correct
15:30:21  <TrueBrain> owh joy, this will be fun to fix then :D
15:30:23  <TrueBrain> hihi
15:30:25  <Chrill> lol
15:30:39  <Chrill> I only have a scenario to upload, it is what I tried to upload in the first place!
15:31:37  <Terkhen> I'm using JIRA at work... I don't like it much but since we are using a version from 2008 I guess that I can't judge it :P
15:31:54  <TrueBrain> Terkhen: Jira 5 is much better
15:31:58  <TrueBrain> you can now link to bugs etc :P
15:32:09  <TrueBrain> I wouldn't dare to let any of you work with Jira pre-5
15:32:12  <TrueBrain> it is short to horrible
15:32:21  <Terkhen> :)
15:32:24  <Alberth> thank you TrueBrain :)
15:33:36  <Hirundo> Alberth: <- How do I detect if there are still cyclic imports?
15:34:16  <Alberth> build an import graph :)
15:34:37  <Alberth> I can make one if you like
15:34:46  <TrueBrain> Chrill: fun fact: I just uploaded that file just fine ... lolz
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15:35:08  <Hirundo> Is building such a graph complicated/
15:35:09  <Hirundo> ?
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15:35:22  <Julio> hello
15:35:47  <Alberth> find imports of each file, make a .dot file, strip the non-cyclic stuff, basically
15:35:54  <Alberth> hi Julio
15:36:12  <glx> oh we already use one of JIRA's author product
15:36:12  <Julio> i'm new to openTTD
15:36:27  <TrueBrain> glx: we do, yes
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15:37:20  <Alberth> Julio: ok :)
15:38:26  <Alberth> Hirundo: alternatively, you can find the imports of each file, put them in some python data structure, and write some code to find the cycle
15:39:07  <Alberth> Hirundo: fyi: .dot files are from GraphViz, a package to draw 2d pictures of graphs
15:39:37  <TrueBrain> Chrill: hihi, UTF-8 issues .. how lovely :D
15:39:43  <peter1138> Gah, wtf
15:40:10  <peter1138> rsyslog set up to alert
15:40:14  <peter1138> via ommail
15:40:18  <TrueBrain> Xaroth: t = open("filename.txt"); t.write(title); t.close(); <- title is an utf-8 string; why would it fail?
15:40:44  <peter1138> send test event that matches rule, alert is raised
15:41:01  <peter1138> real event that matches rule, alert is not raised...
15:41:26  <Alberth> TrueBrain: python 2 should work, as it does not care about what the string contains
15:41:26  <peter1138> python?
15:41:29  <Xaroth> hm
15:41:44  <TrueBrain> Alberth: one would think
15:41:48  <TrueBrain> it fails
15:42:00  <Alberth> TrueBrain: add  "w" for writing?
15:42:01  <TrueBrain> so I guess we both assumped the wrong thing :D
15:42:04  <peter1138>
15:42:04  <TrueBrain> it has it :)
15:42:17  <TrueBrain> Alberth: it is nothing that simple, as non-utf8 works :)
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15:42:50  <Alberth> non-utf8 ?
15:42:59  <peter1138> open("filename.txt", "w", "utf-8") ?
15:43:22  <Xaroth> try
15:43:24  <Xaroth> import codecs
15:43:29  <Alberth> peter1138: if the string is already encoded, you don't want to encode it again
15:43:39  <Xaroth> file =, "w", "utf-8")
15:43:51  <Alberth> unless the title is not utf-8 encoded, but a unicode string instead
15:43:59  <peter1138> yes but python is stupid about utf-8, iirc
15:44:29  <Alberth> TrueBrain: what's the error?
15:44:32  <peter1138> where does title come from?
15:44:55  <peter1138> if it's from the scenario then if it's not utf-8 then it'll fail in openttd too, right?
15:45:08  <TrueBrain> peter1138 wins a cookie for linking the right website
15:45:33  <TrueBrain> I solvd it by adding: title.encoding("utf-8")
15:45:36  <TrueBrain> now the file contains weird chars
15:45:41  <TrueBrain> I guess that is intended? No clue tbh :P
15:45:46  <Alberth> right, so it was unicode :)
15:46:01  <Alberth> or some other encoding :D
15:46:05  <TrueBrain> ^^
15:46:10  <TrueBrain> I hate Python for its utf-8 shit
15:46:12  <TrueBrain> it is just that: shit
15:46:27  <Xaroth> I'm long glad django takes care of a lot of the crap :p
15:46:41  <TrueBrain> Archipiᅵᅵlago Hermoso
15:46:42  <TrueBrain> hmm
15:46:44  <Xaroth> saves me from having to get headaches
15:46:49  <TrueBrain> no clue how to validate the UTF string :P
15:47:00  <Alberth> decode? :)
15:47:27  <Alberth> u = title.decode('utf-8')   :)
15:47:34  <TrueBrain> copy file to public_html
15:47:35  <TrueBrain> open in browser
15:47:37  <TrueBrain> set to utf-8
15:47:38  <TrueBrain> works :)
15:47:45  <TrueBrain> Alberth: I wanted to test it outside Python :P
15:47:50  <TrueBrain> Chrill: fixed; you should be able to upload now
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15:48:18  <peter1138> so why doesn't my rsyslog work right? :p
15:49:04  <TrueBrain> funny enough, in Chrill's bug report he had a non-utf8 title :P
15:49:13  <TrueBrain> his failed uploads told me he tried utf-8 titles :D
15:49:22  * TrueBrain hugs BaNaNaS for keeping track of these things :)
15:49:30  <TrueBrain> tnx for the help guys :)
15:49:43  <TrueBrain> peter1138: maybe utf8 issues? :P
15:49:48  <peter1138> heh
15:50:58  <Alberth> thanks for fixing so quickly TrueBrain
15:51:05  <TrueBrain> I have to say, I had the same issue, but I cannot remember what the hell I did to fix it peter1138 :P
15:51:15  <Chrill> I failed :(
15:51:19  <TrueBrain> Alberth: I Wasn't planning to, but my roommates went to get food, so I have 10 whole minutes free! :D
15:51:25  <Chrill> Although I am using UTF-8
15:51:25  <Chrill> funny
15:51:28  <Chrill> ah wel
15:51:28  <Chrill> l
15:51:31  <Chrill> thank you TrueBrain!
15:51:32  <Alberth> :)
15:51:40  <TrueBrain> Chrill: as long as it works now :D
15:51:44  <Chrill> I shall try tomorrow for I am just about to leave :P
15:51:53  <TrueBrain> its funny that you are the first one trying to use utf-8, or at least: reporting it :D
15:52:06  <Chrill> :P
15:52:42  <Chrill> my coding is, in other words, really messed up
15:52:51  <Chrill> I use both UTF-8 and non-UTF-8 all at once
15:52:53  <Chrill> massive coolness
15:53:00  <Terkhen> I used in on tags some time ago too
15:54:16  <TrueBrain> Terkhen: we fixed tags months ago; someone used it before you :P
15:54:19  <Terkhen> but never in names
15:54:37  <peter1138> only thing i can see different is the real entry comes from an IP instead of a hostname
15:54:38  <peter1138> hmm
15:55:20  <Terkhen> I remember them breaking with the andalusia scenario too
15:55:21  <TrueBrain> peter1138: ah, yes; my issue was that when I tested it, it came from localhost, while the live event came from 'reserved.isp-name'
15:55:43  <TrueBrain> in other words: I filtered it wrong :D
15:55:48  <peter1138> heh
15:55:53  <peter1138> i'm not filtering on that though
15:56:17  <TrueBrain> we have one box with remote syslog, it had to handle localhost differently, else it came in an infinite loop \o/
15:56:19  <peter1138> and both the test and real events come from remote system
15:56:27  <peter1138> yeah :-)
15:56:52  <TrueBrain> remote syslog is fucking epic btw
15:57:01  <peter1138> it's essential
15:57:19  <TrueBrain> 100% sure nobody tempers with data, and centralized place to filter for 'bad' events :)
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16:19:19  <Terkhen> gah, subsidies are broken again?
16:24:19  *** peter1138 [] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
16:43:19  <Alberth> or he services industries too well :)
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17:17:32  <andythenorth> what did I miss?
17:18:29  <NGC3982> my naked body.
17:18:35  * NGC3982 runs about with his majesty suit on.
17:18:40  <andythenorth> didn't miss that
17:18:44  <NGC3982> ;_;
17:19:13  <Chrill> didnt want to see that? :P
17:19:38  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
17:19:47  <Alberth> hi frosch
17:19:59  *** KouDy [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:21:34  <frosch123> moin
17:25:11  <andythenorth> lo
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17:28:51  <Wolf01> evenink
17:29:02  <Hirundo> Alberth: fyi - I wrote a script that managed to find exactly 1 cyclic dependency which is now fixed, see also
17:30:19  <Alberth> evenink Wolf01
17:30:26  <Alberth> Hirundo: nice :)
17:31:51  <Alberth> Hirundo: you're the dev here, so if you consider it sufficient, fine by me :)    (I'll ask for a re-open of the task if I find a new one ;) )
17:32:51  <Alberth> but it's very good that you managed to eliminate all, having them is a sign that the code structure is not good
17:33:09  <Terkhen> hi frosch123 and Wolf01
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18:24:18  * andythenorth proposes an adventure with Pyramid
18:24:25  <andythenorth> would anybody like to play?
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18:25:31  <Alberth> time estimate?
18:25:35  <andythenorth>
18:26:26  <andythenorth> I want to ship an app with BANDIT / FISH that can generate the config file from the browser
18:26:39  <andythenorth>
18:27:41  <Alberth> how would that work?
18:28:01  <Alberth> it generates a number that you enter in the config?
18:28:37  <andythenorth> similar to
18:28:43  <andythenorth> which has an edit view you can't access :P
18:28:53  <andythenorth> due to this running on one of our production webservers :P
18:28:57  <andythenorth> but I can :)
18:29:27  <andythenorth>
18:29:34  <Alberth> so I can set the intro date?
18:29:39  <andythenorth> yup
18:29:46  <andythenorth> you could do it in the config file just as easily
18:29:58  <Alberth> and then?
18:29:59  <andythenorth> but this allows me to render it to other things trivially, e.g. table view, documentation etc
18:30:22  <andythenorth> and then
18:30:34  <andythenorth> (page source is better formatted)
18:30:49  <andythenorth> ^^ that file is curled by my build script to build FISH
18:31:55  <Alberth> k
18:32:05  <andythenorth> it's moderately insane
18:32:07  <andythenorth> but I like it
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18:32:25  <andythenorth> it's silly because there would be python classes for vehicles in the web app
18:32:27  <Alberth> yeah, it is somewhat overkill-ish
18:32:30  <andythenorth> these are then rendered to a config file
18:32:35  <andythenorth> then rebuilt to python classes :P
18:33:07  <Alberth> make a "generate GRF" button :p
18:33:16  <andythenorth> It's overkill, but I just find a web cms easier to use than a spreadsheet
18:33:42  <andythenorth> the actual valid case is to have websites for my grfs
18:33:48  <andythenorth> running on the coop server probably
18:33:58  <andythenorth> in a way other people could understand and maintain
18:34:01  <andythenorth> if I leave / get hit by a bus
18:34:22  <andythenorth> currently the website is on one of our production boxes, totally unsupported and may die at any moment
18:34:24  * Alberth hopes that won't happen any time soon
18:34:47  <Alberth> (leaving, I mean)
18:34:55  <andythenorth> probly not
18:35:05  <andythenorth> unless I really start sulking about ship smoke
18:35:16  <andythenorth> or I start playing Dwarf Fortress
18:35:18  <andythenorth> or Minecrack
18:35:55  <andythenorth> although the low level of conversation here, and lack of interesting forum threads does make me stay away more :P
18:36:18  <Alberth> drawn to the dark side you are
18:36:37  <andythenorth> minecrack :P
18:37:01  <andythenorth> I actually need to learn pyramid to port a work app to it
18:37:17  <andythenorth> making a newgrf configurator seemed a simple project to get started
18:37:21  <Alberth> oh, it's work gor you :)
18:37:28  <Alberth> *for
18:38:28  <Alberth> ok, I'm completely clueless about web-thingies, but I'll play, right after I got myself some tea :)
18:41:16  * andythenorth should learn about virtual env
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18:50:58  * andythenorth enters the usual world of python setup rage
18:55:56  <andythenorth> what's really nice about setting up python is that the docs lie
18:56:01  <andythenorth> that helps a lot
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19:02:21  <andythenorth> screw virtualenv
19:02:23  <andythenorth> it's broken :P
19:03:53  <Alberth>  <-- uses virtualenv
19:04:14  <andythenorth> yes
19:04:26  <andythenorth> I can't teach my OS to see virtualenv as a package
19:04:36  *** Julio [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
19:04:37  <andythenorth> easy_install installs it, but I can't run it
19:05:05  <andythenorth> I've installed pyramid to my site packages for now
19:06:05  * andythenorth does the SQL lite tutorial
19:06:10  <andythenorth>
19:07:04  <Supercheese> Hmm, tweaking road vehicle offsets so they look good (that is, stay in their lanes and don't "jerk" around corners) means the sprites lie quite a bit outside the bounding boxes. Is this ok?
19:07:40  <andythenorth> it will probably go wrong
19:07:41  <andythenorth> :P
19:07:50  <andythenorth> if it looks right in game, it's possibly right
19:08:02  <andythenorth> but if you do articulated vehicles, or switch the drive side, it may suck
19:08:14  <andythenorth> hmm
19:08:22  <Supercheese> Hmm, well nothing is articulated, but I haven't tested tunnels, maybe there's clipping there
19:08:26  <Supercheese> brb testing
19:08:34  <andythenorth> row-based storage should be fine for this config stuff
19:08:49  <andythenorth> although....then the build script could connect directly to sql lite, skipping the config file step
19:09:19  <andythenorth> and if I used ZODB, I could just store the classes there :o
19:09:32  <Supercheese> Yeah, there's some clipping, dangit
19:10:40  <andythenorth>
19:10:47  <__ln__>
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19:14:20  <Alberth> sql seems scary enough for now :)
19:15:33  <andythenorth> tempted to blitz my python 2.6 and start again
19:15:38  <andythenorth> although I've done that so many times :(
19:15:41  <Supercheese> Guess sticking closer to the bounding boxes is worth it
19:16:19  <andythenorth> yup
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19:18:37  <Alberth> it feels very Twisted-ish :)
19:19:36  <Belugas> Twisted Sisters
19:19:42  <Belugas> hoho... memories
19:21:00  <Alberth> Actually from    :)
19:21:42  <CornishPasty> Is there a Twisted for Ruby? Since I hate python :/
19:22:00  <andythenorth> how silly
19:22:13  <andythenorth> hating languages :)
19:22:29  <CornishPasty> Well, I don't hate it per se, I just dislike its syntax
19:22:49  <andythenorth> you should hate it's setup tools instead :P
19:22:57  <andythenorth> 'the state of python packaging' :P
19:23:13  <CornishPasty> Gems <3
19:23:53  <andythenorth> I tried the node.js package manager to install the less compiler
19:23:56  <andythenorth>
19:24:03  <CornishPasty> npm?
19:24:07  <andythenorth> probly
19:24:24  *** Chrill [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:24:46  <CornishPasty> It's the same with Ruby
19:24:53  <CornishPasty> gem install <package> # done
19:24:56  <andythenorth> follow instructions, get working code
19:24:59  * andythenorth likes that
19:25:00  <Alberth> use a sane OS package manager instead :)
19:25:02  <Eddi|zuHause> syntax is irrelevant
19:25:18  <andythenorth> Alberth: I'd have to switch to a better OS :P
19:25:46  <Alberth> and that's not a worthwhile investment? :p
19:26:03  <andythenorth> I like OS X
19:26:25  <andythenorth> apart from the shocking state of packages
19:26:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Apple should be a teaching example for stockholm syndrome
19:26:51  <andythenorth> but python packaging is a screaming mess no matter which OS you have
19:27:20  <andythenorth> this is not a new assertion :)
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19:28:35  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: the point that Apple understood very well is that most users have simple computing needs
19:28:51  <andythenorth> mine are simple
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19:29:30  <Alberth> mine are not :p
19:29:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the problem for civilization is that people grow with the demands put at them. so if you don't demand anything from people, civilization degrades
19:29:46  <andythenorth> nah
19:29:54  * andythenorth finds the Joel quote of a quote
19:30:33  <andythenorth> or not
19:31:36  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: and being good with computers is good for a civilization? I somewhat doubt that for the general population
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19:41:43  * andythenorth votes for sleeping time
19:42:02  <andythenorth> Alberth: I'm going to do more pyramid tutorial tomorrow
19:42:24  <Alberth> ok, good night
19:42:27  <andythenorth> bye
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20:25:22  <Peter2> !version
20:25:22  *** Peter2 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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20:31:03  <Alberth> you didn't believe me yesterday?
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20:46:12  <Chris_Booth> !password
20:46:12  *** Chris_Booth was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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20:46:20  <Chris_Booth> oops
20:46:51  <Terkhen> good night
20:46:58  <Wolf01> 'night Terkhen
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21:14:24  <frosch123> night
21:14:28  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:14:50  <NGC3982> im trying to find the shortest possible formula to create a (as good as) random two digit number.
21:16:06  <NGC3982> with certain flamboyance, that is.
21:17:54  *** TWerkhoven[l] [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:18:20  <NGC3982> like, the current (two digit) local temperature, divided by the current julian date, then selecting the first last two known decimals.
21:19:29  *** George [~George@] has joined #openttd
21:19:45  <Wolf01> 'night
21:19:52  *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
21:21:07  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: maybe you have a misunderstanding what "random" means
21:33:00  <Supercheese> Hmm, maybe retrieve and then run a search for the first two numbers? I very much doubt you'd encounter a page that has no numbers at all, especially since there's the "This page was last modified on ___" part at the bottom.
21:33:34  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: random is relative, and for my purpose, the number will be random (and utter unscientific).
21:33:55  <Supercheese> Likely would lead to a preponderance of "19" due to the frequence of the years 1900-1999
21:33:57  <NGC3982> Supercheese: true.
21:34:10  <Supercheese> frequency*
21:34:27  <NGC3982> Supercheese: well, all i need to do is multiply with a known number thats always changing.
21:34:36  <NGC3982> Supercheese: where time is perfect.
21:35:15  <Supercheese> Making use of Wikipedia's random article feature in an algorithm just struck me as neat ;)
21:35:23  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: "random" and "always different" are contradicting
21:35:34  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: what are you trying to achieve?
21:35:46  <NGC3982> Supercheese: yes, indeed. its also easy for me to parse. :P
21:35:56  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the sequence "3,2,5,5,5,5,8" is totally random
21:36:04  <Eddi|zuHause> but 5 is repeated often
21:36:26  <Eddi|zuHause> artificially trying to have no repetition of the 5 in there makes it LESS random
21:36:57  <NGC3982> yes, that is true.
21:37:12  <NGC3982> but natural repetition doesnt break my experiment.
21:37:32  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: if you want to have random numbers, use the rand() function
21:38:03  <NGC3982> that's a c++ command, right?
21:38:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it's (with minor differences) a command in pretty much any language
21:38:34  <NGC3982> i see
21:38:59  <Eddi|zuHause> occasionally it takes a parameter, i.e "rand(100)" for a number between 0 and 99
21:39:24  <NGC3982> how does it make the number?
21:39:57  <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on the language, the library, the os, ...
21:40:25  <NGC3982> ah, i see.
21:40:50  <NGC3982> the thing is, there is a reason for me wanting natural (pseudo-unrelated numbers) parameters to my function.
21:41:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the usual differences are between balancing speed and "randomness" [i.e. corellation effects, predictability, ...]
21:41:09  <NGC3982> ok
21:41:25  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody _ever_ considered "length of the formula" a serious issue...
21:42:21  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: e.g. on linux the kernel provides two random number generators: /dev/random and /dev/urandom. the first one is "more random" and the second one is "fast"
21:42:35  <NGC3982> ok
21:45:41  <NGC3982> "In this implementation, the generator keeps an estimate of the number of bits of noise in the entropy pool."
21:45:46  <NGC3982> that's perfect!
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21:47:49  <NGC3982> in it's reference frame and my experiment, /dev/random should thus be as random as anything can be
21:48:24  <NGC3982> since it's purely unguessable, even if the guniea pig knows the rules of the number creation.
21:48:51  * NGC3982 makes a note to thank Eddi while receiving the nobel price.
21:49:01  <NGC3982> when*
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21:56:57  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: no computer generated number can ever be "completely random"
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22:11:10  <NGC3982> in reference, sure it can.
22:11:18  <NGC3982> and not using it is semantics.
22:11:33  <NGC3982> ill use /dev/random, by the way. thank you and good night.
22:12:39  <waterfoul> anyone willing to help me fix a compile problem?
22:15:23  <Eddi|zuHause> waterfoul: you have an awful talent to come always when everybody is asleep
22:15:45  <Eddi|zuHause> waterfoul: and you haven't told us what version you try to compile and where and how you got it from
22:17:44  <waterfoul> I am trying to get a patch working and the oroginal code is from trunk
22:18:42  <Eddi|zuHause> right, then your patch is probably very old
22:19:26  <waterfoul> I figured, I was trying to get it to work and have fixed most of the problems
22:19:34  <waterfoul> its the IS2 patch
22:20:27  <Eddi|zuHause> waterfoul: the format for settings was changed fundamentally around r22172. settings.h is now autogenerated from settings.ini, so all changes to that file must be ported to the new format
22:20:49  <waterfoul> ok
22:21:10  <waterfoul> how do I regenerate it?
22:21:31  <Eddi|zuHause> waterfoul: the makefile does that automatically, if you change settings.ini
22:21:51  <waterfoul> /src/table/settings.ini correct?
22:21:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
22:23:41  <waterfoul> is there docs for how this file works?
22:24:03  <Eddi|zuHause> waterfoul: it's really rather straightforward
22:24:27  <waterfoul> looks simple enough but I don't wabnt to go monkeying without knowing how it works... (for example how do I add an include)
22:25:17  <Eddi|zuHause> waterfoul: in the old patch for settings.h you have some entries like STD_VAR(x,y,z,...), and in the beginning of settings.ini you have the #define STD_VAR(X,Y,Z,...), so in the [VAR] section you put X=x Y=y Z=z ...
22:26:59  <waterfoul> oh... that's why I was confused.... I was looking at the patch for settings.cpp DOH!
22:27:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that's gonna be difficult then :p
22:28:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing you really will need to change is the min_version for the settings you introduce
22:28:51  <Eddi|zuHause> you increase SAVEGAME_VERSION in the .cpp file by one, and put that number as the new min_version
22:29:17  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise you will get trouble loading savegames made by current trunk
22:31:16  <waterfoul> I don't see SAVEGAME_VERSION in settings.cpp
22:31:28  <waterfoul> *src/settings.cpp
22:31:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's in saveload.cpp
22:33:15  <waterfoul> can I leave off strhelp?
22:33:46  <Eddi|zuHause> if you leave out a setting it should put in the default value
22:33:47  *** Rhamphoryncus [] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus]
22:34:15  <Eddi|zuHause> if in doubt, put STR_EMPTY or so, but it would be better style to actually add the right strings :)
22:34:16  <waterfoul> ok, they used SDT_CONDBOOL but I can't find the name for the last parameter
22:34:21  <waterfoul> what is it?
22:35:22  <Eddi|zuHause> waterfoul: you have an example?
22:35:33  <waterfoul> SDT_CONDBOOL(GameSettings, economy.infrastructure_sharing[0],              143, SL_MAX_VERSION, 0, 0, false,                    STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SHARING_RAIL,           CheckSharingRail)
22:35:41  <waterfoul> sofar I have [SDT_BOOL]
22:35:44  <waterfoul> base     = GameSettings
22:35:46  <waterfoul> var      = economy.infrastructure_sharing[0]
22:35:48  <waterfoul> from     = 176
22:35:50  <waterfoul> def      = false
22:35:52  <waterfoul> str      = STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SHARING_RAIL
22:35:58  <waterfoul> how do I add the CheckSharingRail
22:36:38  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, yes, that is a function that checks the validity of the setting on changing
22:36:50  <Eddi|zuHause> should be "proc"
22:37:58  <waterfoul> oh... I just found a newer patch in the forums
22:38:13  <waterfoul> looks like someone has already done it.... fail
22:38:35  <waterfoul> its for r24114
22:38:48  <Eddi|zuHause> they could have done garbage :)
22:39:04  <Eddi|zuHause> don't blindly trust stuff other people have done :)
22:39:38  <waterfoul> i fugured but there seems to be multiple testers of the new patch so I'll give it a shot, i'll make sure I hackup my work first though
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22:44:50  <waterfoul> looks like they did do the settings ini right though
22:50:39  <waterfoul> I can;t remember... how do you enable debvugging symbols? it segfasults and I want to try to fix it
22:51:38  <waterfoul> found it, --enable-debug=3
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