Log for #openttd on 14th July 2012:
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03:49:24  <Svenska> hi. i just had an idea while travelling some time ago: when the train broke down, it was connected to the following train and both went together until the broken train was taken out of service some stops later
03:51:04  <Svenska> can multiheaded trains get less (or less severe) breakdowns? i think the chance of complete breakdown completely is head1*head2... and if one head breaks down, the train is slower
03:52:16  <Svenska> so in gameplay there's at least a possibility to have breakdowns not tear down your whole network in worst case
03:55:12  <Svenska> what do you think?
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05:31:11  <Terkhen> good morning
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06:48:25  <Alberth> hi hi
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07:13:14  <dihedral> good morning
07:18:53  <planetmaker> moin
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07:21:07  <Wolf01> hello o/
07:40:32  <Supercheese> Heh, I've just started using TortoiseSVN for a personal, non-OTTD project I'm working on, and importing all the files to start is going to take forever, as I have about 500MB worth
07:41:01  <Supercheese> Not sure if it's my upload speed that's limiting things, or what
07:42:05  <Supercheese> The poor upload window keeps Not Responding, even though it still keeps uploading
07:43:07  <Wolf01> versioning systems give their best for the code, not for the assets
07:44:46  <Alberth> Supercheese: it copies the entire project history
07:44:55  <Alberth> moin Wolf01
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07:45:49  <Alberth> Supercheese: oh, sorry, SVN. that just copies the current working copy
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07:46:28  * Alberth thinks too much Mercurial
07:46:34  <Supercheese> I've never used any version control stuff before, but it seems straightforward enough
07:46:53  <Supercheese> especially since I'm the sole developer
07:46:54  <Alberth> SVN is sort of useless unless you have commit access
07:47:21  <Supercheese> I started a project at Google code, free hosting ftw
07:47:35  <Alberth> yeah, FreeRCT is there too :)
07:48:13  <Alberth> it's probably the network that is slow
07:49:17  <Supercheese> Hmm, issue tracker doesn't seem to have a category for "Feature being worked on"
07:49:22  <Supercheese> or "Feature request"
07:49:30  <planetmaker> Supercheese: if you've never used any vcs you might be better of starting with hg or git
07:49:31  <Supercheese> guess ya gotta make those custom?
07:49:39  <Alberth> you can add new fields
07:49:57  <Alberth> planetmaker: why?
07:50:10  <Supercheese> Already chose Subversion
07:50:59  <Alberth> basically, you're missing patch queues, which are nice to order your commits
07:52:00  <planetmaker> Alberth: I think they offer more potential and easier sharing (if you - maybe later - care to)
07:52:13  <Supercheese> Well, I'm not developing a program per se, but rather a series of configuration files to be loaded by another program
07:52:23  <planetmaker> and imho also easier to locally follow through an idea and throw it away
07:52:26  <Supercheese> Also I do not expect any other folk to work on this, just me
07:52:41  <dihedral> Supercheese, hg and git allow committing and branching and tagging without a connection to the server, and you can push changes later on
07:52:47  <dihedral> which is useful if you are on the go, e.g.
07:52:52  <Alberth> planetmaker: true, hg is more flexible in that aspect
07:52:55  <planetmaker> Supercheese: dvcs already is easier if you work on different machines
07:53:22  <dihedral> planetmaker, constant tar snapshots :-D
07:53:25  <Supercheese> Yeah, it's the Baskin Robbins syndrome, too many choices
07:53:37  <planetmaker> :-)
07:53:41  <dihedral> Supercheese, learn hg - you'll enjoy it
07:53:51  <Supercheese> hg - mercurial?
07:53:51  <dihedral> rather than learning svn and then needing to switch to hg later on :-D
07:53:56  <dihedral> Supercheese, aye
07:53:56  <Supercheese> =*
07:53:59  <planetmaker> yes. hg is mercurial
07:54:06  <Supercheese> Hmm
07:54:17  <dihedral> and if you know hg you know a lot about git also
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07:54:56  <Alberth> dihedral: except how to work with it, as they changed the meaning of all commands :)
07:55:40  <planetmaker> quite :-)
07:55:43  <Supercheese> Well, guess I should switch to mercurial while I haven't yet started
07:55:47  <Alberth> Supercheese: You can import an SVN repository into hg (or git iirc), so switching can be done later
07:55:57  <Supercheese> Ah, well I won't cancel the upload
07:55:58  <planetmaker> Supercheese: there's also a tortoiseHG
07:56:09  <Supercheese> Yes, I saw, git too IINM
07:56:18  * Alberth nods
07:56:35  * Supercheese wonders if anyone other than himself uses that acronym
07:57:00  <Alberth> Supercheese: the advantage of SVN is that it is terribly simple, at the cost of flexibility
07:57:01  * planetmaker doesn't. What does it stand for?
07:57:07  <Supercheese> If I'm Not Mistaken
07:57:29  <Supercheese> fairly equivalent to IIRC
07:57:36  <Supercheese> but that's too cliche :P
07:59:20  <Supercheese> I've been developing this project for a few months, and I've discovered why folks invented revisioning way back when
08:00:00  <Supercheese> "Crap, what did I change from this version to that?"
08:00:22  <planetmaker> haha :-) Yeah
08:00:38  <Supercheese> among other questions
08:02:15  <planetmaker> the good thing is that commits basically come for free once you get the hang of it
08:02:28  <planetmaker> and you learn to appreciate plain text files in many contexts :-)
08:02:56  <Supercheese> Presumably I just work on stuff and each time I change things and everything compiles nicely I choose commit
08:03:24  <Alberth> as well as 'revert' :)   It is simple to do an experiment, and if it doesn't work, just revert to the last good state.
08:03:43  <Supercheese> Fortunately, compiling this project takes at most 20 seconds
08:03:44  <planetmaker> :-) Yeah. Or update to the last working revision or so
08:04:33  <Supercheese> Heh, "Files 1 - 100 of 7353"
08:04:45  <Supercheese> That's a lot of "Next" button clicks
08:05:28  <planetmaker> uh... sounds like sucky gui
08:05:43  <planetmaker> I guess I only use the command line interface of vcs'
08:05:46  <Supercheese> Eh, it's what Google gives ya
08:05:54  <Supercheese> I don't plan on actually using that interface
08:05:54  <dihedral> Alberth, a commit is still a commit, and a push is still a push
08:05:59  <dihedral> same with pull, clone update
08:06:12  <planetmaker> 15:55 planetmaker: as such one can work with 5 commands alone: clone, push, pull, diff and commit. And maybe log as 6th
08:06:21  <planetmaker> ^^ that's all it needs imho to get started
08:06:25  <dihedral> :-P
08:06:32  <dihedral> i agree
08:06:46  <planetmaker> the rest is extra. Though sometimes very handy extra
08:06:55  <dihedral> aye
08:06:58  <planetmaker> hm. I forgot up
08:07:05  <planetmaker> "up"
08:07:07  <dihedral> but if you need extra, you are able to find out how 'extra' works
08:07:21  <dihedral> planetmaker, up is that not an alias to update?
08:07:24  <Alberth> Supercheese: that's one way of doing commits. You'll find that sometimes you want to do a commit, but you are not exactly sure whether it is the right solution, as 3 commits further is the crucial point that may or may not go wrong. This is where patch queues come in.
08:07:26  <planetmaker> and no-one  in #mercurial contradicted :-P
08:07:30  <planetmaker> dihedral: yes
08:07:44  <dihedral> ah - you did not mention it
08:07:45  <Alberth> dihedral: false  "git add" != "hg add"
08:08:05  <dihedral> Alberth, oh realy?
08:08:08  <planetmaker> and... maybe add indeed :-P
08:08:25  <Alberth> dihedral: yep, this is the whole staging stuff of git
08:08:29  <planetmaker> so. 7 commands. clone, push, pull, diff, commit, add, update and maybe log and merge
08:09:04  <Alberth> git commits the file as it was on the git add, while hg commits the file as it is during commit
08:09:39  <planetmaker> uh. I was not aware of that difference
08:09:56  <Alberth> that's where the magic   commit -a comes from
08:10:16  <planetmaker> in hg?
08:10:17  * Supercheese is somewhat confused
08:10:22  <Alberth> planetmaker: in git
08:10:54  <planetmaker> Supercheese: don't let yourself be confused... details :-)
08:10:55  <dihedral> Alberth, ok - but both add a file
08:10:58  <Alberth> Supercheese: no worries it's like a religion, my system is better than yours :)
08:11:02  <planetmaker> unimportant details for a starter
08:11:14  <dihedral> so the difference is important if you change a file after adding it
08:11:19  <dihedral> and before committing it
08:11:28  <Alberth> dihedral: you claimed they were equal :)
08:11:34  * planetmaker does that. Quite often actually
08:12:06  <dihedral> Alberth, the use of the commands hg and git are for a certain respect equal
08:12:20  <dihedral> the implementation of the commands are most likely not
08:12:52  <planetmaker> the only real issue is that hg add != git add and similar in other equal looking commands
08:12:53  <dihedral> hg add is still git add (even if a little but important difference in the file handling is there)
08:12:54  <Alberth> hg and git are mostly equal in functionality too
08:13:14  <dihedral> and the storage engine is different
08:13:24  <dihedral> but that does not mean that if i can use hg i could not use git
08:13:28  <Alberth> dihedral: but details is what makes the difference imho
08:13:30  <planetmaker> but the functionality of the programmes is approx. the same. They just call things differently
08:13:42  <dihedral> as the commands i need to achive the same are still the same commands
08:13:47  <planetmaker> like both German and English are a language. Some words are similar, others not
08:13:56  <Supercheese> "boot", for example
08:13:58  <planetmaker> or maybe rather German and Dutch. Fits better
08:13:59  <Supercheese> l)
08:14:02  <Supercheese> ;) *
08:14:19  <dihedral> Alberth, imo that is nitpicking
08:14:29  <dihedral> to a beginner it is a minor difference
08:14:54  <planetmaker> dihedral: and you notice that Alberth nitpicks on purpose and you fall so well for the tease ;-)
08:14:57  <dihedral> the basic meaning of the commands are the same
08:15:06  <Alberth> oh, you were talking about beginners.   In that case, you are right
08:15:15  <dihedral> grrr :-P
08:15:18  * Supercheese is definitely a beginner
08:15:20  * dihedral gives Albert a hug
08:15:40  <dihedral> meany
08:16:05  <dihedral> planetmaker, i only just got up ... an hour ago
08:16:25  <Supercheese> Man, a server-side issue tracker is a thousand thousand times better than trying to remember stuff myself. "What was I planning to work on, again?"
08:17:00  <planetmaker> Supercheese: that's one of the reasons we setup the devzone ;-)
08:17:04  <planetmaker> hard to remember all the stuff
08:17:09  <Alberth> Supercheese: very true. Even better would be to have one in the repo itself, but I have not found one so far
08:17:11  <Supercheese> no kidding
08:17:20  <planetmaker> and easier to recall what people said when stored in a somewhat central place
08:17:28  <Supercheese> Well, Google has 'em side by side
08:17:37  <Supercheese> at least for my purposes anyhow
08:17:47  <planetmaker> Alberth: what do you mean with "in the repo"? Like them being commits?
08:18:02  <Alberth> a distributed tracker
08:18:03  <planetmaker> in a special "issue_tracker" branch?
08:18:33  <planetmaker> I thought that to be handy, too. As currently it's quite separate things... and tracker history is thus easier lost :-(
08:19:08  <Alberth> there are some attempts, eg bugseverywhere
08:19:27  <Alberth> but they don't seem to work for hg :p
08:20:04  <Alberth> (I tried it, it didn't work in a blatantly obvious way, reported it, and they solved it by withdrawing hg support :P )
08:21:08  <Alberth> it also gives new problems, like having a separate program for it, that should figure out which project to use
08:21:44  <planetmaker> hm, let's ask #mercurial whether they know a solution :-)
08:27:07  <planetmaker> btw, dihedral: a short command comparison
08:33:16  <Alberth> joy, pull and fetch have reversed meaning
08:33:26  <planetmaker> yeah :-)
08:33:48  <planetmaker> in order to avoid this complication I actually use hggit when I have to deal with git repos
08:34:24  <Alberth> I recently found 'eg', I have not tried it yet though
08:34:57  <planetmaker> what's that? (link)
08:36:19  <Alberth> "Git for mere mortals"
08:37:33  <planetmaker> ah, thanks. /me reads
08:41:48  <Wolf01> gah, I hate mixing date formats, especially php's strftime with classic date formats
08:42:02  <planetmaker> interesting read, Alberth
08:42:33  <Alberth> I installed it, but probably by the time I need to use git, I have forgotten all about it :p
08:42:48  <planetmaker> hehe. I fear that to be the case here, too
08:43:41  <Wolf01> Thu 12-08-2012 21:09 instead of Thu 12-07-2012 21:08 %M is minutes not month, and %I is 12-hour format not minutes :P
08:44:55  <Alberth> be glad it doesn't change each time you start the program :p
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08:46:19  <dihedral> Wolf01, %m is month
08:46:31  <Wolf01> yes, I noticed that
08:46:33  <dihedral> :-P
08:47:30  <Wolf01> but for example, compare: with:
08:48:42  <Wolf01> I'm used to the date() formats, but sometimes I need strftime() formats and I make a lot of confusion
08:48:54  <Rubidium> wasn't there a massive rant about PHP somewhere?
08:49:04  <Rubidium> IMHO PHP is like a patchpack
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08:49:31  <Rubidium> everyone can add their bit without considering things important to some (like consistency and security)
08:51:03  <Wolf01> yeah, I think that too, but since ther were talking about bug trackers, it come to my mind to change the date format of flyspray, it was something like d D M Y H:i instead of the other format (strftime)
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08:53:01  <Wolf01> and in PHP there's an error due to misuse of :: which is written in Israelian
09:00:48  <Alberth> there are far bigger things wrong in php imho
09:03:46  <Wolf01> working as a web developer I found it does have a lot^2 of inconsistencies
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09:06:33  <Alberth> do they have strings as native data type yet?  (instead of the collection of C string functions)
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09:08:33  <Wolf01> no, still strings as array of chars
09:10:10  <Alberth> joy, so useful in a language intended to manipulate and generate pieces of text :p
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09:11:41  <cmircea> Wolf01,
09:11:47  <cmircea> Have fun.
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09:12:18  <Wolf01> You pull out the hammer, but to your dismay, it has the claw part on both sides. hahaha
09:12:29  <Wolf01> yeah, php it's really so
09:12:31  <cmircea> Someone actually made a hammer.
09:12:36  <cmircea> Like that.
09:13:03  <cmircea> That is the best rant ever about a programming language. And it is all true.
09:14:02  <Supercheese> Well, good night all
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09:15:33  <planetmaker> you mean... the php hammer?
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09:33:05  <NGC3982> he
09:33:12  <NGC3982> ..hehe.
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10:16:06  * andythenorth tries a game with new Canadian Set
10:20:26  <andythenorth> bah
10:20:29  <andythenorth> FIRS is broken
10:20:37  <andythenorth> what good is a Canadian map with just 1 forest
10:20:40  <andythenorth> stupid grf
10:21:36  <Hirundo> should FIRS increase forest probability, if it detects presence of canadian grfs?
10:21:44  <andythenorth> :D
10:21:46  <andythenorth> probably not
10:22:01  <andythenorth> I suspect the issue here is that I always forget how probability works
10:22:26  <andythenorth> if I add some new industry types to the grf, I need to go and adjust probability for *every* other type
10:22:33  <andythenorth> took me too long to work that out :P
10:22:35  <Hirundo> why?
10:22:44  <andythenorth> probabilities are relative
10:22:46  <andythenorth> brb
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10:24:44  <andythenorth> with FIRS 0.6.4 I get more forests per new game (very unscientific test)
10:24:53  <andythenorth> compared to 0.7.5, which has more industry types
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10:25:27  <frosch123> obviously
10:25:30  <Hirundo> of course
10:25:32  <frosch123> the number of industries is fixed
10:25:44  <frosch123> so more types result in less per type
10:25:46  <andythenorth> obvious to people who are mathematically literate :P
10:25:50  <andythenorth> I always forget
10:26:03  <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz
10:26:08  <ZxBiohazardZx> question about dedi multiplayer
10:26:13  <frosch123> main reason why firs in unplayable for me :p
10:26:15  <ZxBiohazardZx> how do i load a savegame from the console?
10:26:17  <frosch123> i like small maps
10:26:22  <andythenorth> frosch123: ditto me
10:26:30  <andythenorth> I keep starting games and quitting because the chains are all wrong
10:26:32  <frosch123> ZxBiohazardZx: load "filename" ?
10:26:40  <frosch123> or try "help load"
10:26:43  <andythenorth> frosch123: which industry types are out of balance for you?
10:26:45  <Hirundo> we need firs economies!~
10:26:47  <andythenorth> I'd better try and fix it
10:26:52  <frosch123> andythenorth: no idea
10:27:01  <andythenorth> oh :P
10:27:03  <ZxBiohazardZx> load crash.sav --> no such file or directory
10:27:04  <frosch123> i think i never played firs for more than 5 minutes
10:27:12  <andythenorth> me neither recently
10:27:16  <andythenorth> I kind of hate it
10:27:22  <ZxBiohazardZx> prolly diff savedir
10:27:32  <andythenorth> FIRS looks nice, but is all wrong
10:27:43  * andythenorth considers rm -r firs*
10:27:56  <frosch123> ZxBiohazardZx: there are also ls and cd commands iirc
10:28:01  * Hirundo has a backup
10:28:09  <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz i moved the file using windows, that works :P
10:28:19  <ZxBiohazardZx> im playing an ECS game
10:28:25  <frosch123> andythenorth: just implement different economies :)
10:28:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> its a pain combined with cargodest :(
10:28:31  <ZxBiohazardZx> same goes for FIRS imo
10:28:35  <ZxBiohazardZx> its a great industryset
10:28:41  <Hirundo> andythenorth: I think there should be some parameters to remove / combine some industries ("economies", if you will)
10:28:43  <ZxBiohazardZx> but it becomes a pain when cargodest is added
10:29:05  <Hirundo> e.g. in a non-farming economy, there should be only 1 or 2 farm types, probably the mixed farm only
10:29:13  <ZxBiohazardZx> the cargobalancing act is a pain when you have 1 jam or something similar, it completely resets all the progress you made:P
10:29:35  <andythenorth> cargobalancing is a wrong thing anyway :)
10:29:51  <frosch123> Hirundo: i don't think combining industry types by removing the farm types helps
10:30:06  <frosch123> i think you rather have to cut down cargo types, and then see which industries remain
10:30:16  <andythenorth> the main blocker is implementation initially
10:30:24  <andythenorth> the game balance can be sorted out by testing
10:30:35  <andythenorth> but I have no sane way to right the code
10:30:53  <andythenorth> write /s
10:31:16  <frosch123> andythenorth: independent of how to code... is there a concept of what econcomies should be available and what industries/cargo they should supply?
10:31:27  <ZxBiohazardZx> andythenorth try cargodest with first/ecs
10:31:27  <andythenorth> several yes
10:31:37  <andythenorth> cargodest doesn't appeal at all
10:31:48  <ZxBiohazardZx> well pax/cargodest is fun imo
10:31:51  <andythenorth> I find it a very weird concept
10:31:57  <ZxBiohazardZx> its just a pain when combined with ECS/Firs
10:32:06  <andythenorth> I haven't tried it though, so I should give it a chance
10:32:10  <ZxBiohazardZx> on the "default" industries it actually adds some sort of challenge
10:32:20  <ZxBiohazardZx> and on the ECS game i run now it gives interesting results
10:33:00  <ZxBiohazardZx> and when you get the hang of it its actually a great addition
10:33:02  * andythenorth considers playing old FIRS, where the industry balance is correct
10:33:05  <ZxBiohazardZx> the balancing is a pain though :P
10:33:17  <ZxBiohazardZx> ill try out a FIRS game later i think
10:33:22  <andythenorth> FIRS is all wrong :P
10:33:25  <ZxBiohazardZx> last FIRS is a while ago
10:33:40  <FLHerne> It needs mroe industry types and cargos, that's all :P
10:33:45  <ZxBiohazardZx> hehe
10:33:48  <ZxBiohazardZx> more more more
10:33:51  <FLHerne> s/ro/or/
10:33:57  <ZxBiohazardZx> i sometimes hate the complexity too much
10:34:01  * andythenorth hopes pikka shows up with TAI soon
10:34:06  <ZxBiohazardZx> :P
10:34:48  <Hirundo> frosch123: What's the status of ?
10:35:05  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Have you considered production caps on the first-generation industries?
10:35:06  <frosch123> nothing done
10:35:19  <Hirundo> Are you planning to get it done?
10:35:27  <andythenorth> FLHerne: which / how much?
10:35:33  <FLHerne> The amount of wheat that one windmill can grind a month is silly :P
10:35:39  <andythenorth> I know
10:35:40  <frosch123> i see no reasons to not do it; but currently i am doing other things
10:35:56  <andythenorth> FLHerne: so how much wheat can one windmill grind per month?
10:36:09  <ZxBiohazardZx> actually depends on windmill size
10:36:13  <FLHerne> Unsure...perhaps I should look it up
10:36:13  <andythenorth> 1 tile
10:36:27  <andythenorth> but you also have to make it a parameter
10:36:50  <andythenorth> and you have to decide what to do with the excess cargo delivered
10:36:58  <Hirundo> I don't mean to bug you about it, just being curious
10:37:20  <ZxBiohazardZx> 1 "normal" windmill
10:38:03  <frosch123> no problem :) i just did not know how to interpret "planned" :)
10:38:28  <ZxBiohazardZx> ugh stupid new elec windmills
10:38:34  <ZxBiohazardZx> most results ofc link back to that
10:38:43  <Rubidium> actually, FIRS should become bilingual when in the presence of Canadian GRFs ;)
10:38:52  <andythenorth> good point
10:39:12  <FLHerne> About 250 coomb sacks/week, apparently
10:39:20  <FLHerne> Depending on weather :P
10:39:41  <ZxBiohazardZx> FLHerne how much is a sack in your weights?
10:39:57  <FLHerne> Haven't a clue :P
10:40:39  <ZxBiohazardZx> 500.000 to 530.000 kg a year is average for a 25 meter 2x mill in netherlands
10:41:11  <andythenorth> the actual amount is not important
10:41:13  <ZxBiohazardZx> production capacity is depending on the "gevlucht" the area, improvement on the wings and the ammount of grinders
10:41:22  <andythenorth> you'll need to somehow match it to the number of farms on the map
10:41:41  <andythenorth> so you'll need to measure grain production, then build an appropriate number of windmills
10:41:43  <ZxBiohazardZx> i can find info on how many farms supply 1 mill
10:41:48  <ZxBiohazardZx> 1 sec
10:41:58  <ZxBiohazardZx> can you link industries to "nearby" industries
10:42:07  <andythenorth> no
10:42:09  <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz
10:42:11  <ZxBiohazardZx> k
10:42:22  <andythenorth> this needs an openttd patch to build all primary industries first
10:42:33  <andythenorth> then build secondaries to match processing capacity to output
10:42:38  <andythenorth> maybe GS can do it
10:42:45  <ZxBiohazardZx> :P
10:43:04  <ZxBiohazardZx> if you change the game-generation algorithm you could to
10:43:07  <andythenorth> and as before - it will need a parameter to enable / disable
10:43:11  <ZxBiohazardZx> oh well
10:43:21  <ZxBiohazardZx> im trying to find info on how many farms supply to 1 windmill
10:43:35  <FLHerne> 132 tons/month is what I got for a large tower mill
10:44:02  <FLHerne> [spurious precision]
10:44:05  <ZxBiohazardZx> dutch mills produce 500-530 tons a year, for a normal sized mill
10:44:13  <ZxBiohazardZx> but as andy mentioned
10:44:20  <ZxBiohazardZx> you have to compare it to farm productions
10:44:44  <ZxBiohazardZx> farms from X to Y means mills from 5Y to 10Y (or something similar)
10:44:51  <FLHerne> Anyone have info on Smithy Forges? Those have the same issue :P
10:45:07  <ZxBiohazardZx> as in steelforges or actual small blacksmiths?
10:45:09  <andythenorth> how will you implement the limit?
10:45:14  <andythenorth> acceptance?  or output?
10:45:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> andy can you not give min-max params for production?
10:45:34  <FLHerne> The blacksmiths in FIRS
10:45:38  <andythenorth> ZxBiohazardZx: yes
10:45:59  <andythenorth> so what happens when you reach the production cap?
10:46:00  <ZxBiohazardZx> then you can give farms a min X and max Y and give windmills a min 0 max 5Y or so
10:46:04  <ZxBiohazardZx> after that stop accepting
10:46:08  <ZxBiohazardZx> similar to ECS
10:46:17  <andythenorth> so reject cargo?
10:46:25  <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah reject untill below
10:46:39  <FLHerne> That would be annoying
10:46:41  <ZxBiohazardZx> you using stockpiles on FIRS or not?
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10:46:49  <andythenorth> yes we're using stockpiles
10:46:55  <ZxBiohazardZx> ECS has similar approach
10:46:58  <andythenorth> stockpiles are stupid, but we have no choice
10:47:09  <FLHerne> Have production/unit delivered decrease as delivery rate rises :D
10:47:10  <ZxBiohazardZx> if supplied >>>>>> used --> stop accepting
10:47:20  <FLHerne> That would avoid vast pileups
10:47:23  <ZxBiohazardZx> imo its a valid mechanism
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10:47:45  * andythenorth considers starting a new industry set
10:47:53  <ZxBiohazardZx> and that solves your industry balancing as well
10:48:08  <ZxBiohazardZx> as then you can predetermine reasonable values per type based on suppliers
10:48:16  <ZxBiohazardZx> to use windmill example
10:48:29  <andythenorth> hmm
10:48:35  <andythenorth> count the number of suppliers within n tiles
10:48:39  <andythenorth> and limit accordingly
10:48:46  <ZxBiohazardZx> farms produce between X and Y, windmill from 0 to 3Y, stockpile to 5Y?
10:48:48  <andythenorth> 200t per farm within 16 tiles
10:49:09  <andythenorth> hmm
10:49:18  <andythenorth> would need to fix the farm production to a constant value
10:49:21  <andythenorth> but that's ok
10:49:27  <andythenorth> variable production is boring anyway
10:49:57  <ZxBiohazardZx> you can even have variable production on the farms
10:50:04  <ZxBiohazardZx> but use the 200/farm as average
10:50:19  <andythenorth> but that means you might have too much cargo going to the windmill
10:50:29  <andythenorth> hmm
10:50:41  <ZxBiohazardZx> again if you overshot it, stop accepting
10:51:00  <ZxBiohazardZx> average the farms on 200t and you should be fine
10:51:02  <andythenorth> but then how does the player transport that cargo?
10:51:03  <ZxBiohazardZx> make them 100-300
10:51:08  <ZxBiohazardZx> not :P
10:51:12  <ZxBiohazardZx> its like on ECS
10:51:18  <ZxBiohazardZx> it will auto-reaccept in time
10:51:21  <andythenorth> but then the transported rating can't be achieved
10:51:24  <andythenorth> it breaks the game
10:51:33  <ZxBiohazardZx> transfer options
10:51:38  <ZxBiohazardZx> i use them for ECS too
10:51:44  * andythenorth ponders transferring it all into a big black hole station
10:51:48  <ZxBiohazardZx> i cant get the system running without transferring
10:51:52  <andythenorth> but then vehicles would be losing money
10:51:54  <andythenorth> which breaks the game
10:52:03  <ZxBiohazardZx> nah tram it from dropoff to station
10:52:06  <ZxBiohazardZx> and you have income
10:52:11  <andythenorth> ?
10:52:18  <andythenorth> if it's not delivered, no income
10:52:21  <ZxBiohazardZx> lets say you have a dropoff station B
10:52:33  <ZxBiohazardZx> you transfer & leave empty @B so trains will continue
10:52:43  <ZxBiohazardZx> and from B you have a tram to C (the industry)
10:52:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> as soon as C accepts cargo, the tram will bring form B to C (short dist) and make the revenue
10:53:04  <andythenorth> so the issue is
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10:53:12  <andythenorth> 5 farms @ 300t = 1500t output per month
10:53:18  <andythenorth> but we're only accepting 1000t
10:53:22  <ZxBiohazardZx> when stockpile limit/acceptance is reached the station stops accepting and the cheap tram runs empty
10:53:24  <andythenorth> so we'll always have 500t untransported
10:53:47  <ZxBiohazardZx> if that is the case then the player should redirect that 500t to another accepting industry
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10:53:58  <andythenorth> but the other industries will be capped too
10:54:03  <andythenorth> based on their neighbouring industry
10:54:07  <ZxBiohazardZx> and that is if you keep windmill static on 200t*producers in range
10:54:18  <ZxBiohazardZx> what if i decide to not bring my goods to nearby industry
10:54:21  <ZxBiohazardZx> but to a far away one
10:54:30  <andythenorth> same issue, somewhere else
10:54:38  <andythenorth> make the cap max*producers
10:54:41  <andythenorth> solves it
10:54:43  <ZxBiohazardZx> or what if i have a windmill without nearby farms
10:54:45  <ZxBiohazardZx> :P
10:54:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> but i transport to it from far away:P
10:55:14  <ZxBiohazardZx> you will always keep issues like that for you cant direct link the productions
10:55:16  <andythenorth> funding a new secondary would mean recalculating all the caps
10:55:22  <FLHerne> andythenorth: What are the light-concrete tiles in CHIPS source for? They don't seem to appear in-game
10:55:29  * andythenorth looks
10:55:31  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka windmill = ALWAYS nearby farms*x
10:55:44  <ZxBiohazardZx> so if farm increases, so does windmill
10:55:48  <ZxBiohazardZx> or maybe allow upgrading it?
10:55:54  <ZxBiohazardZx> similar to funding/bringing a town
10:56:19  <andythenorth> FLHerne: the ones that are stone coloured?  They were quarry tiles, deprecated
10:56:21  <ZxBiohazardZx> upgrade it for bigger capacity then default (incremental steps, exponentially more expensive )
10:56:31  <ZxBiohazardZx> that possible or?
10:56:42  <andythenorth> possible with a patch
10:57:06  <ZxBiohazardZx> so not on trunk/via newgrf?
10:57:09  <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, the ones that look like light-grey concrete, with vehicle tracks (?) on
10:58:00  <FLHerne> They don't match any of the platforms, or OGFX baseset concrete, or the ones that you claim match TTD concrete
10:58:10  <FLHerne> |They look nice though :-)
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10:58:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> but an upgrade system wouldnt be too bad for the issue above
10:58:50  <ZxBiohazardZx> if your industry wont accept enough, you can increase capacity via investments :P
10:58:59  <andythenorth> FLHerne: they're an abandoned attempt to provide a concrete ground tile
10:59:07  <andythenorth> I prefer the one in the TTD base set though
10:59:07  <ZxBiohazardZx> to bad you cant get that done via newgrf only :P
10:59:22  * andythenorth thinks the game should be about building industry
10:59:26  <andythenorth> the transporting should be automatic
11:00:17  <ZxBiohazardZx> lol
11:00:23  <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe that is one thing though
11:00:34  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why abandoned? They easily look the best with huts on them :P
11:00:37  <ZxBiohazardZx> industries should check nearby stations for waiting cargo to use?
11:00:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka if i drop it off on the station and its not accepting, it can grab from station when it is :P
11:01:02  <ZxBiohazardZx> but yeah stockpile issue
11:01:12  <andythenorth> FLHerne: feel free to use them
11:02:11  <andythenorth> Alberth: how is your RCT project going?
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11:02:38  * andythenorth needs a new game.  I'm kind of done with TTD, just can't get interested in it
11:03:01  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I already am :P
11:03:03  <Alberth> it needs a bit more code
11:03:18  <andythenorth> can I make people sick yet?
11:03:21  <FLHerne> andythenorth: FOSS only?
11:03:28  <andythenorth> don't care
11:03:33  <andythenorth> has to be interruptable
11:03:47  <andythenorth> can't be anything that is absorbing, or can't be put on hold
11:03:53  <andythenorth> so no RT online play
11:03:56  <andythenorth> nothing action based
11:04:09  <andythenorth> nothing which requires concentration
11:04:12  <Alberth> no, but they do have colours
11:04:31  <andythenorth> :)
11:04:44  <andythenorth> can we do all the graphics by printing unicode chars to the screen?
11:05:09  <Alberth> probably
11:05:26  <Alberth> but doom-ascii already exists
11:05:57  <andythenorth> it does :o
11:06:04  * andythenorth wants to play Doom again
11:07:20  <Alberth> maybe play widelands?
11:07:57  <andythenorth>
11:08:00  <andythenorth> looks fun
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11:23:57  <andythenorth> I could split FIRS into 1-grf-per-industry?
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11:25:46  <andythenorth> that solves economies
11:26:07  <planetmaker> it doesn't quite solve it. As not every combination makes sense, does it?
11:26:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> ill have the windmill the fishingboats and a steelmill
11:26:37  <ZxBiohazardZx> go :P
11:26:57  <ZxBiohazardZx> go go pointless industries go :P
11:27:03  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Not until they raise the limit on number of loaded NewGrfs, you can't :P
11:29:03  <Rubidium> just go with the stuff economy
11:29:28  <Rubidium> extracting/growing stuff, making stuff into other stuff, moving stuff from houses to other houses and so forth
11:29:55  <Rubidium> then you need two, maybe three industries and one cargo
11:31:06  <ZxBiohazardZx> haha
11:31:12  <ZxBiohazardZx> stupid stuff is stupid
11:31:17  <ZxBiohazardZx> might be fun for toyland
11:31:24  <ZxBiohazardZx> baseblocks
11:31:30  <ZxBiohazardZx> semi-lego-like
11:31:38  <ZxBiohazardZx> baseblocks can be pax, can be cargo can be anything
11:31:38  <ZxBiohazardZx> :P
11:32:27  <MNIM> how about an age of empires economy?
11:32:33  <MNIM> food, wood, stone and gold.
11:33:13  <ZxBiohazardZx> nah
11:33:15  <ZxBiohazardZx> go go cossacks
11:33:18  <ZxBiohazardZx> add iron and coal
11:33:24  <ZxBiohazardZx> iron coal gold wood stone
11:33:52  <ZxBiohazardZx> then again you usually go for steel as it is logical after iron+coal
11:33:56  <MNIM> farms need wood and make food, houses need food and make gold. towns need stone and wood to grow, and banks/markets need and make gold.
11:33:59  <ZxBiohazardZx> and that gives you steel -> something
11:34:04  <MNIM> that's the whole economy.
11:34:09  <ZxBiohazardZx> :P
11:37:05  <MNIM> you could call it something like 'Simple Industries Mines Peoples and Life Economy.
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11:52:32  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24398 /trunk/src/lang/brazilian_portuguese.txt: -Fix: Most recent changes to Brazilian were syntactically wrong.
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12:00:07  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24399 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt: -Fix: Korean.
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12:09:55  <planetmaker> Alberth: I looked around a bit and found and and
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12:20:31  <Alberth> planetmaker: none of them seems to be able to find bugs based on some text, unless you count 'grep', but then you are mssing a nice bug-list
12:20:45  <planetmaker> hm, I see
12:21:28  <planetmaker> Alberth: but you likely can use like  "hg log -k 'text'" or doesn't that work?
12:22:14  <Alberth> I think you want "give me all bugs about X"
12:22:30  <planetmaker> hg log -k 'X' then?
12:22:40  <Alberth> as a list of bugs, not as a list of files or revisions, imho
12:23:10  <planetmaker> maybe, yes
12:23:43  <Alberth> hmm, perhaps         hg list bugs | grep X
12:23:55  <Alberth> euhm, no
12:24:04  <Alberth> that only matches titles :)
12:24:11  <planetmaker> hg log -I path/to/bugs -k 'X'
12:24:39  <Alberth> why are you interested in revisions?
12:24:46  <planetmaker> revision?
12:25:15  <planetmaker> you mean as I use log which gives the revs? Well
12:25:19  * andythenorth finds some sprites DanMacK did for FISH
12:25:23  <planetmaker> I'm not :-)
12:25:42  <planetmaker> But it gives a list of those bug-related revisions which touch 'X'
12:25:47  <planetmaker> Might give double hits, though
12:25:55  <Alberth> and closed issues :)
12:26:25  <planetmaker> indeed. That'd be painful sometimes
12:27:16  <planetmaker> # hg ilist
12:27:16  <planetmaker> # hg ilist -a
12:27:16  <planetmaker> 907ab57e04502afd (  3) [resolved=fixed]: New issue
12:27:47  <planetmaker> artemis seems to provide a command for that, though ^
12:28:36  <Alberth> currently open issues work until you have 20+ or so :)
12:29:08  <Alberth> which may be sufficient for a small project though
12:30:18  <planetmaker> Most NewGRF projects I know have more ;-)
12:30:41  <planetmaker> but what makes it stop working beyond 20 open issues?
12:31:09  <andythenorth> what are you trying to do?
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12:32:46  <Alberth> planetmaker: remembering what each issue is about gets more difficult with 20+ issues, or over longer periods of time
12:33:10  <Alberth> that's why you have a search
12:33:57  <Alberth> without it, you have to remember the details of each issue while reading the "all open issues" list
12:34:15  <Alberth> or am I missing something?
12:36:34  <andythenorth> are you reading locally, or via redmine or such?
12:36:57  * andythenorth has to read tickets every day for work and (re)prioritise them
12:37:07  <andythenorth> remembering the issue from the title is not ea
12:37:09  <andythenorth> easy
12:37:48  <Alberth> I mentioned that a distributed issue tracker would be useful this morning, and pm found a few :)
12:37:58  <andythenorth> interesting idea
12:38:06  <andythenorth> we use trac still at work
12:38:17  <andythenorth> it smells, but the opinion seems to be that they all smell, so why change :P
12:38:56  <Alberth> trac allows nice referencing to revisions, changesets and issues everywhere
12:41:35  <andythenorth> only if you've set it up correctly
12:41:44  <andythenorth> and not if you've used cluemapper
12:41:54  <andythenorth> :P
12:42:17  * andythenorth stops complaining and does some actual newgrf stuff
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12:44:48  <planetmaker> andythenorth: the idea behind adding issues to repo is intriguing IMHO: currently all issues are "gone" when the DevZone is not reachable (or e.g. when you're offline). With them in the repo... they're everywhere where the repo is
12:45:17  <andythenorth> yup
12:45:42  <andythenorth> we tried designing a server / app / asset management system last year for people doing sysops
12:45:58  <andythenorth> which would tell you the log of changes made to configuration etc
12:46:08  <andythenorth> so at 2am you know what recently changed
12:46:23  <andythenorth> we ended up concluding that distributed VCS was easier than a custom app :P
12:46:45  <Alberth> I'd hope so :)
12:49:42  <planetmaker> andythenorth: the coop servers use hg to track changes in /etc :-)
12:50:13  <andythenorth> do they log stuff like 'supervisor restarted me 17 times in 1 minute' ?
12:50:20  <andythenorth> which is more of a logging type task
12:50:31  <andythenorth> we were trying to blend automated logging and manual engineering logs
12:50:33  <andythenorth> it failed :P
12:50:38  <planetmaker> that sounds like a thing logged in /var/log/messages
12:51:01  <planetmaker> thus it just needs proper grep-ing
12:52:06  <andythenorth> it was a bit more magical than that, but that's why it failed :)
12:52:28  <andythenorth> ho
12:52:31  <andythenorth> I should update nml
12:55:58  <andythenorth> hmm
12:56:26  <andythenorth>
12:56:32  * andythenorth provides nml QA again :)
12:56:55  <planetmaker> too old python version?
12:57:10  <andythenorth> maybe
12:57:15  <andythenorth> 2.6.1
12:57:19  <andythenorth> worked last week
12:57:26  <planetmaker> hm, that should not be too old
12:57:29  <andythenorth> works for FIRS
12:57:56  <planetmaker> I guess... Open an NML issue :-)
12:58:20  <andythenorth> wondering if I can patch a fix
12:59:36  <andythenorth> works if I remove one vehicle
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13:03:59  <FLHerne> andythenorth: More NewObjects :-)
13:05:30  <Alberth> andythenorth: I expect a bug in NML r1913
13:05:44  <andythenorth> it's interesting that only one vehicle causes it
13:06:06  <Alberth> the code is executed when you make an error somewhere
13:06:24  <Alberth> are you running NML tip?
13:06:48  <Alberth> ie do you use r1913?
13:08:38  <andythenorth> yup
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13:09:15  <Alberth> Hirundo: ^^ trouble
13:09:24  <andythenorth> 1912 works
13:09:31  <andythenorth> i.e. provides the correct error
13:09:35  <andythenorth> missing png in this case
13:10:06  <andythenorth> there you go, free testing by andythenorth :D
13:10:10  <andythenorth> I find most cases :P
13:11:07  <Alberth> including non-implemented areas :)
13:12:26  * andythenorth ships new ship
13:17:54  <FLHerne> What's the new ship you shipped?
13:22:57  <andythenorth> large coaster, 1934
13:23:08  <andythenorth> it's in the nml conversion of FISH, which is quite broken right now
13:25:42  <FLHerne> So you have things that don't start in 1870 now?
13:26:10  <andythenorth> more of those yes
13:26:17  <andythenorth> not a full set though
13:26:26  <andythenorth> ships are insanely hard to draw
13:26:36  <andythenorth> and my artist got driven away :(
13:26:45  <andythenorth> driven away / bored ;)
13:30:44  <FLHerne> Any earlier pax ships yet?
13:37:23  <planetmaker> andythenorth: still no new DanMacK interest? :-(
13:41:11  <ZxBiohazardZx> i was wondering
13:41:27  <ZxBiohazardZx> if i have an empty map (semi-heightmap, just added canals)
13:41:39  <ZxBiohazardZx> why does editting newgrfs still possibly cause issues?
13:41:54  <andythenorth> you have zero grfs currently?
13:42:03  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka can we not define "blocks" that are not affected by newgrf changes that can be loaded as base?
13:42:22  <andythenorth> no grfs = no issues, if that's what you mean
13:42:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> nah this game has multiple and will crash due to them being altered (most likely, its a chrill patchpack game so im not 100% sure)
13:42:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> well lets say i have an empty heightmap
13:42:39  <ZxBiohazardZx> and add canals
13:42:49  <ZxBiohazardZx> then i want to save it without grfs
13:43:07  <planetmaker> not feasible really
13:43:10  <ZxBiohazardZx> if i later on open it, add newgrfs and then start trees, towns & industries, it will still mark it as "changed" right?
13:43:28  <ZxBiohazardZx> well my point is that the newgrf-define is on a weird location
13:43:39  <ZxBiohazardZx> id put it as menu/required select on every newgame start
13:43:47  <ZxBiohazardZx> rather then a weird perma setting in the main menu
13:43:51  <andythenorth> yes, the game GUI is a mess :)
13:43:57  <ZxBiohazardZx> if you forgot something your screwed and have to redo it all
13:43:59  <planetmaker> ZxBiohazardZx: you're asking for a new scenario format basically
13:44:06  <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah i guess so
13:44:09  <planetmaker> or a re-definition of heightmap. or similar
13:44:22  <ZxBiohazardZx> the current one stores only terrain height
13:44:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> some maps of mine use "dried up lakes"
13:44:52  <ZxBiohazardZx> but if i convert to heightmap to change the newgrfs then i have to re-dry alot of it
13:45:05  <ZxBiohazardZx> similar goes for the towns
13:45:11  <ZxBiohazardZx> i want to define a town spawnpoint
13:45:14  <ZxBiohazardZx> and rough size
13:45:32  <ZxBiohazardZx> then on game-generation it can place whatever town @ whatever towngrf provided to generate the scenario
13:46:01  <ZxBiohazardZx> making the scenario re-usable by diff grf-sets instead of having to provide 1 gazillion permutations to every newgrfset out there
13:46:34  <planetmaker> ZxBiohazardZx: see
13:47:01  <ZxBiohazardZx> yes!
13:47:06  <ZxBiohazardZx> something like that
13:47:44  <ZxBiohazardZx> actually exactly that
13:48:07  <planetmaker> feel free to comment there :-)
13:48:19  <Alberth> os submit a patch :D
13:48:21  <Alberth> *or
13:48:22  <ZxBiohazardZx> reading the wiki now, it looks actually damn good
13:48:29  <planetmaker> (i hope Terkhen wouldn't mind). And yes... patch :-P
13:48:30  <ZxBiohazardZx> haha me and submitting a patch, you funny guy :)
13:48:53  <ZxBiohazardZx> the best "coding" i did was some minor java for a minor and SQL for wow-emulation
13:49:02  <Alberth> I have seen people starting to program to submit patches
13:49:12  <ZxBiohazardZx> i can read the C++ and understand what it does, but editting it is 100% not what i indend doing
13:49:30  * planetmaker waves hand at Alberth
13:49:31  <ZxBiohazardZx> specially not since ottd is a bit more complex then the wowemu setup (well for me its less understandable)
13:49:46  <ZxBiohazardZx> im more of a feedback / feature requester :P
13:49:55  <Alberth> oh, another one :)    /me waves back to planetmaker
13:49:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> but that idea from Terkhen is actually what i meant
13:49:57  <andythenorth> people change
13:50:18  <andythenorth> I mean, once you used to poop yourself 3 times a day
13:50:26  <andythenorth> and you had to be fed in a high chair
13:50:26  <planetmaker> :-D
13:50:34  <ZxBiohazardZx> you should be able to define basestuff and then regardless of newgrf's it should work (aka newgrf-related changes can be applied)
13:50:41  <andythenorth> if we talk ourselves out of change, then....blearch
13:50:49  <andythenorth> although andythenorth can't sing
13:50:53  <Alberth> ZxBiohazardZx: we know already
13:50:54  <andythenorth> and probably can't learn
13:51:10  <andythenorth> ZxBiohazardZx: I have patches, why can't you?
13:51:20  <ZxBiohazardZx> because you dont like my coding skillz :)
13:51:27  <andythenorth> and you like mine?
13:51:35  <planetmaker> :-)
13:51:41  <ZxBiohazardZx> and seriously i dont have the time for learning cpp and the trunk layout
13:51:55  <ZxBiohazardZx> i already do some shit for wow-emulation and im 2 years behind on my bachelor civil engineering
13:52:11  <ZxBiohazardZx> im not a programmer, but who knows, if i get bored enough i might give it a try
13:52:17  <planetmaker> "screw the style and skills. Results are what count no matter the means"  ;-)
13:52:21  <ZxBiohazardZx> i think i actually updated a patch once
13:52:21  <andythenorth> civils is over-rated anyway, I quit my civils degree
13:52:28  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka update the linechanges to trunk
13:52:35  <andythenorth> it's just concrete for hours, and soil mechanics
13:52:39  <ZxBiohazardZx> haha
13:52:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> you got it :(
13:52:43  <planetmaker> I'm not a programmer by profession...
13:52:51  <ZxBiohazardZx> fluid mechanics are a bigger pain for me
13:52:54  <ZxBiohazardZx> as i suck in math
13:52:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> stupid ODE's
13:53:10  <andythenorth> at least fluid mechanics is all just based on constants that nobody understands
13:53:10  <planetmaker> and if you can do fluid and continuum mechanics, then you can also programme.
13:53:17  <planetmaker> You *need* actually be able to programme
13:53:25  <andythenorth> if you can do finite element analysis, you can programme
13:53:49  <andythenorth> if you can do second level differentiation you can programme
13:53:55  <planetmaker> ZxBiohazardZx: ODE? That's boring indeed. PDE! :-P
13:53:58  <andythenorth> geez, if you can do long division you can programme
13:54:05  * andythenorth can't do long division, never figured it
13:54:22  <andythenorth> most of my flash game programming involved tan / sin / cost, and not much else :P
13:54:30  <andythenorth> cos*
13:54:32  <ZxBiohazardZx> planet yeah any DE for that matter
13:54:41  <ZxBiohazardZx> meh yeah reminds me
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13:55:03  <ZxBiohazardZx> i still have to pass Computer Graphics & Computational Intelligence for my minor programming
13:55:13  <ZxBiohazardZx> i succesfully did Java & web/db design
13:55:19  <ZxBiohazardZx> db design was my best :P
13:55:29  <andythenorth> write a fuzzy-logic based newgrf graphics generator
13:55:33  <planetmaker> then write a game script or AI for OpenTTD, if you can choose the topic ;-)
13:55:34  <andythenorth> that learns based on player feedback
13:55:51  <ZxBiohazardZx> cant planet, it hardly get the stupid ideas anyway
13:56:02  <ZxBiohazardZx> swarm intelligence, backward propagation, neural networking
13:56:12  <ZxBiohazardZx> i took the minor for the subjects i passed
13:56:20  <ZxBiohazardZx> the 2 others are the crap i have to work on
13:56:50  <ZxBiohazardZx> oh well first i must resit some civil subjects that are extremely boring
13:57:27  <ZxBiohazardZx> constructional safety (materials engineering 2.0) probability & statistics (epic fail with 1 point short) and numeretical methods for DEs (blegh)
14:00:53  <planetmaker> ZxBiohazardZx: the numerical methods actually need not be boring at all.
14:01:10  <planetmaker> I find it actually quite intriguing. And it gives you a good idea how trustworthy results can be :-)
14:05:14  <ZxBiohazardZx> well yeah i actually like the last
14:05:19  <ZxBiohazardZx> the matlab is fine
14:05:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> and i can code/work with it
14:05:46  <ZxBiohazardZx> i just stink in the non-pc examn
14:06:02  <ZxBiohazardZx> stupid Tayloring screws up
14:06:19  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka i know something is O(h^2) but i sometimes have a hard time proving it
14:06:40  <ZxBiohazardZx> same for the testequation
14:06:58  <ZxBiohazardZx> i know the results for euler foward, backward and modified eurler
14:07:08  <ZxBiohazardZx> and i can work the methods
14:07:25  <planetmaker> hehe
14:07:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> but i sometimes jsut cant get the proof done on a given initial value problem
14:07:42  * andythenorth liked the first year unit where we made bridges
14:07:54  <ZxBiohazardZx> i got an 8/10 for matlabbing it, i got a 2/10 for the examn on paper :P
14:07:56  <andythenorth> and the practical experiment making rivers in the sand tank
14:08:15  <ZxBiohazardZx> Spagetti bridges :)
14:08:20  <ZxBiohazardZx> epic yearly event :)
14:08:41  <ZxBiohazardZx> anyway its holiday so /care
14:08:59  <ZxBiohazardZx> also to get back on creating/writing a patch
14:09:06  <ZxBiohazardZx> i feel first patch should be trivial / small
14:09:13  <ZxBiohazardZx> not a huge rewrite of a base feature :P
14:09:38  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24400 /trunk/src/ (strgen/strgen.cpp table/strgen_tables.h): -Add: Plural 'names' to the output of strgen -export-plurals.
14:09:44  <ZxBiohazardZx> i actually did some CPP for the wow-emulator
14:10:11  <ZxBiohazardZx> but openttd uses more actual hexcodes from what i see
14:10:54  <planetmaker> hex codes? where?
14:16:18  <frosch123> is bibi blocksberg known in the english world? hex-hex?
14:16:47  <planetmaker> :-D
14:16:59  <frosch123> <- at least there is an english wiki page
14:23:25  <andythenorth> not known to me :)
14:26:22  <andythenorth> if we fixed vehicle smoke, I could try adding support for it to nml :)
14:26:27  * andythenorth just saying
14:26:49  <TrueBrain> with a big tnx to frosch123
14:26:51  <TrueBrain> WT3 has a nice update :)
14:26:58  <TrueBrain> lets hope people understand genders and plurals more now
14:28:53  <andythenorth> lo TrueBrain
14:28:54  <andythenorth> :)
14:34:50  <andythenorth> "nml is so bracing"
14:34:55  <FLHerne> andythenorth: You haven't drawn your concrete/cobbled/mud tiles for non-flat slopes at any point, have you? :P
14:35:02  <andythenorth> nope
14:35:08  <FLHerne> :-(
14:35:08  <andythenorth> use foundations
14:35:18  * FLHerne gets out an image editor
14:35:19  <andythenorth> there are a *lot* of non-flat slopers
14:35:23  <andythenorth> there's only one flat tile
14:35:28  <FLHerne> True
14:35:33  <andythenorth> you'll need about 16 non-flat slope tiles
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14:36:11  <FLHerne> Hmm. Moved to 'long-term ideas' then
14:36:37  <FLHerne> No slipways in other angles, either?
14:37:05  <andythenorth> nope
14:37:13  <FLHerne> Ah well
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15:44:37  <andythenorth>
15:44:45  <andythenorth> why is vehicle current_speed expressed in m/s
15:44:45  <andythenorth> ?
15:44:56  <andythenorth> I can convert to that I guess
15:45:31  * andythenorth needs an mph to m/s converter :P
15:45:51  <planetmaker> andythenorth: NML knows units
15:45:59  <planetmaker> speed: 56 mph
15:46:02  <planetmaker> and you're set
15:46:05  <andythenorth> in a switch block?
15:46:13  <planetmaker> I guess not there (yet).
15:46:20  <andythenorth> yet (tm)
15:46:22  <andythenorth> ;)
15:46:29  <planetmaker> :-P
15:47:04  <andythenorth> (speed * 1609) / 360 or something
15:49:02  <frosch123> i thought i read a commit message about units being supported in switches
15:49:08  * andythenorth will try
15:49:54  <andythenorth> nmlc: "fish.nml", line 1065: Using a unit is in switch-ranges is not (temporarily) not supported
15:50:32  <andythenorth> @calc 1609/360
15:50:32  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 4.46944444444
15:53:01  <andythenorth> ach my maths is off
15:53:58  <andythenorth> 10 mph = 16090 meters per hour
15:54:04  <andythenorth> 16090 / 60
15:54:09  <andythenorth> @calc 1609 / 60
15:54:09  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 26.8166666667
15:54:19  <andythenorth> @calc 26.82 / 60
15:54:19  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.447
15:55:03  <andythenorth> better
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15:57:30  <andythenorth> hydrofoils work again (rise out of the water as they go faster)
15:58:00  <andythenorth> world's ugliest code:
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16:08:56  <andythenorth> hmm
16:08:59  <andythenorth> making stuff is fun
16:10:17  <Alberth> code looks very scary
16:12:35  <andythenorth> it's just ugly
16:12:40  <andythenorth> mostly it's just maths
16:12:44  <andythenorth> hard to read :P
16:12:57  <andythenorth> I could abstract some of it away to the vehicle class
16:13:06  <andythenorth> but then you have to go look up abstractions to read it :P
16:13:23  <andythenorth> rock > andy < hard place
16:21:24  <Alberth> use the rock to beat the hard place to something softer ?
16:22:00  <andythenorth> good point
16:22:09  <andythenorth> or beat the rock on the hard place until it breaks :P
16:22:38  <Alberth> and if very very very lucky, you break both :D
16:23:18  <andythenorth> or me
16:27:24  <Alberth> that would be extremely unfortunate
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16:35:26  <andythenorth> another ship sorted
16:35:52  <andythenorth> wish I could diff the resulting action 0 props :P
16:36:05  <andythenorth> I have no idea if I'm introducing bugs to the basic properties
16:36:26  <andythenorth> nfo -> nml
16:42:56  <andythenorth> also, SSD increases battery life insanely
16:43:21  <FLHerne> andythenorth: What are the sprites in intended for?
16:43:46  <andythenorth> they were copied from FIRS but not used
16:43:54  <andythenorth> you have storage tanks (used a lot in FIRS)
16:44:09  <andythenorth> and then staithes for sand / clay / stone
16:45:18  <ZxBiohazardZx> DWE tiles have them in use
16:45:24  <ZxBiohazardZx> or similar, they use wooden sidings
16:45:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> or ground-dikes
16:46:35  <FLHerne> Thanks :-)
16:48:25  * FLHerne adds them as objects
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16:53:47  <FLHerne> Back later
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16:56:59  * andythenorth finds that a lot of spritesets have to be added when using nml
16:57:08  <andythenorth> which is a lot of identifiers to write :P
16:57:12  <andythenorth> am I doing it wrong?
16:57:28  <andythenorth> e.g. three load states means three spritesets
16:58:02  <Eddi|zuHause> my spritesets are autogenerated :)
16:58:21  <andythenorth> BANDIT ones are too
16:58:24  <andythenorth> FISH not
16:58:31  <andythenorth> can't be bothered to figure out what's generic
17:00:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i generate a tree (or non-cyclic graph) of switches, and then name my spritesets <vehicleid>_<X>_<Y>_<Z> where X, Y and Z are the branch numbers of each switch
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17:07:48  <andythenorth> you are smarter than me :)
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17:15:59  * andythenorth should probably have encouraged Zx more about his degree :P
17:16:18  <andythenorth> but all the civil engineers I met during my degree hated it :P
17:31:42  <andythenorth> what do we think about sound effects for ships?
17:31:47  <andythenorth> as I am about to code the damn things :P
17:33:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know anything about ship sounds
17:33:26  <M1zera> all you need to know is "bhooooooooooooooooo" :-)
17:33:27  <andythenorth> there are two in the base set iirc?
17:33:30  * andythenorth checks
17:33:34  <andythenorth> I did this for nfo FISH
17:33:40  <andythenorth> I just wonder if it was worth it
17:34:00  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24401 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt korean.txt lithuanian.txt):
17:34:00  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:34:00  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: czech - 8 changes by RabbRubbish
17:34:00  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 7 changes by telk5093
17:34:00  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 25 changes by Stabilitronas
17:37:02  <andythenorth> ferry horn
17:37:04  <andythenorth> ship horn
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17:37:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the bigger the ship the louder the horn! :p
17:38:10  <andythenorth> volume cb?
17:39:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid you'll have to provide different samples for that :)
17:40:28  <andythenorth> hmm
17:40:37  <andythenorth> nvm :)
17:42:54  <andythenorth> there's probably a pure nml way to do this right?
17:42:55  <andythenorth>         sound_effect:                   ${('SOUND_SHIP_HORN','SOUND_FERRY_HORN')[vehicle.default_cargo=='PASS']};
17:43:32  <andythenorth> ternary operator?
17:44:13  <andythenorth> but I don't know how I'd get the vehicle's default cargo in an action 0 context :P
17:45:48  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: NML allows to specify a sound volume, but I'm too lazy right now if that's a default feature or emulated by NML with duplicated and modified sounds in the GRF.
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17:46:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: doesn't sound like a decision that should be made at runtime...
17:47:10  <andythenorth> no, compile time indeed
17:47:27  <andythenorth> the python works fine, just wondered if nml had a way...
17:47:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: ternary operator is runtime
17:47:45  <andythenorth> k
17:48:18  * andythenorth moves on to automagic cost setting
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18:19:12  <frosch123> @seen hyro*
18:19:12  <DorpsGek> frosch123: Hyronymus was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Hyronymus> ~0~
18:19:50  <frosch123> planetmaker: remember what newgrf hyro wanted to upload to bananas with translated readmes and such?
18:21:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: bananas has a new feature! :o
18:25:05  <ZxBiohazardZx> Assertation failed at line 341 of ..\src\linkgraph.cpp: source_flows.empty()
18:25:15  <ZxBiohazardZx> can that be caused by newgrfs or is that actually bad code
18:25:22  <ZxBiohazardZx> chrill patchpack
18:25:56  <frosch123> looks cargodist related
18:27:38  <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah thats my point
18:27:47  <ZxBiohazardZx> i know there are newgrf changes though
18:28:05  <ZxBiohazardZx> but this error is most frequent popper, and i think its related to the patchpack, and not to the changes
18:28:52  <ZxBiohazardZx> was emergency save so cant recall the full report, i can get original(previous similar one) if it helps
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18:33:57  <frosch123> if your newgrf changes imposed changes to cargos, industries or vehicle capacities, i can very well imagine them causing trouble for cargodist
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18:59:51  <Elukka> i haven't had any trouble using cargodist with any number of vehicle sets and FIRS, though i usually have it off for industries
19:00:29  <ZxBiohazardZx> frosch123 then i blame newgrfchanges
19:00:46  <ZxBiohazardZx> roma loaded ECS on existing scenario/heightmap i believe
19:01:00  <ZxBiohazardZx> hence i asked for the new scenario save format earlier today
19:01:10  <Elukka> oh, we're talking about changes to newgrfs as a whole aren't we
19:01:14  <ZxBiohazardZx> the wiki suggestion is honestly a good setup for scenario's / heightmap
19:11:00  <Terkhen> don't forget to comment in the forum thread if you think of any improvements or problems with the format :)
19:12:09  * Terkhen hopes to have time and the desire to code this summer
19:12:30  <Alberth> weather too good to code? :)
19:14:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> nah Terkhen
19:14:48  <ZxBiohazardZx> for towns i suggest to just give spawnpoint+size
19:14:52  <ZxBiohazardZx> but i think that the format has that
19:15:28  <ZxBiohazardZx> not sure about scaling though
19:15:35  <ZxBiohazardZx> but thats heightmap related
19:15:43  <ZxBiohazardZx> and we can already scale them to a certain level
19:15:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> going to much on it ruins the heightmap usually
19:16:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: can't imagine anything "good" about summer-weather in spain :p
19:16:10  <ZxBiohazardZx> and on cpp with extra heightlevel it always seems flat to me
19:16:32  <Terkhen> Alberth: enough free time to get bored of procrastination and games, which is what I mostly do after work nowadays
19:16:43  <ZxBiohazardZx> but Terkhen your final format can be used with any newgrfset right?
19:16:58  <Alberth> Terkhen: coding is also a game :p
19:17:01  <ZxBiohazardZx> even diff industries/townbuildings?
19:17:04  <Terkhen> ZxBiohazardZx: the idea is that newgrfs are not contemplated at all by the format
19:17:09  <ZxBiohazardZx> good
19:17:14  <Terkhen> townbuildings are not considered at all
19:17:18  <Terkhen> and right now the industry layer is missing
19:17:27  *** Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:17:28  <ZxBiohazardZx> i was majorly annoyed by newgrfs causing crashes in scenarios i edit
19:17:30  <Terkhen> because it would need more thinking :)
19:17:43  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka sometimes i make a scenario 4-5x the same just so i can replay it with diff newgrfs
19:17:46  <ZxBiohazardZx> and thats a pain
19:18:07  <Terkhen> that's exactly the reason for making a new scenario format
19:18:13  <ZxBiohazardZx> also imo the main-menu gui is wrong (newgrf selections should be obligatory part of starting a newgame) but thats a diff story
19:18:23  <ZxBiohazardZx> Terkhen i agree, it looked really good
19:18:55  <ZxBiohazardZx> for objectfiles
19:19:01  <ZxBiohazardZx> if you have multiple objects they all go in 1 file
19:19:02  <ZxBiohazardZx> right?
19:19:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka all towns into 1 towns file, where creation identifier is linked to the town file?
19:19:38  <ZxBiohazardZx> [town1] town1data [town2] town2data
19:19:39  <ZxBiohazardZx> etc?
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19:20:41  <Terkhen> yes
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19:20:48  <Terkhen> each layer goes to a single file
19:21:22  <ZxBiohazardZx> k
19:21:34  <ZxBiohazardZx> what about industry then
19:21:39  <ZxBiohazardZx> i see you mentioned complicated
19:21:45  <ZxBiohazardZx> thats i recon due to newgrf's
19:21:57  <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe you can make it switch-case depending
19:22:05  <Terkhen> how would you identify industries in a newgrf independent way?
19:22:33  <ZxBiohazardZx> by only defining WHERE it should be placed and not WHAT should be placed?
19:22:40  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka define X fee tiles for the industry
19:22:49  <ZxBiohazardZx> if you define just enough space for a coalmine
19:22:54  <ZxBiohazardZx> but not enough for something else
19:22:57  <ZxBiohazardZx> then it spawns there
19:22:58  <Terkhen> that's almost random, there is almost no difference with not having any industry data :)
19:23:06  <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz true
19:23:12  <Alberth> "enough space" is already newgrf specific
19:23:19  <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah your right Alberth
19:23:41  <ZxBiohazardZx> i usually have random industries anyway
19:23:42  <Alberth> place + desired input + desired output cargoes?
19:23:50  <ZxBiohazardZx> its towns/terrain that is the biggest pain to do
19:24:06  <ZxBiohazardZx> industries are less of a pain for me
19:24:14  <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe allow 3 base-sets to be defined
19:24:25  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka change industry/cargo newgrfs into basesetlike status
19:24:30  <Terkhen> output cargoes are also newgrf dependent
19:24:53  <ZxBiohazardZx> instead of baseset add [industry]  where whoever gives a newgrf has to at least provide 3-4 default types?
19:25:02  <Alberth> FIRS coal != default coal?
19:25:11  <andythenorth> dunno
19:25:23  <Terkhen> it might be in that particular case, but the specs allow different types of coal
19:25:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> but yeah industries for me are the lesser issue
19:25:30  <Terkhen> or industries producing different cargos
19:25:36  <Terkhen> or different industries producing the same cargos
19:25:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> the major ones are roads, towns, canals/rivers etc
19:25:58  <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe tfor the industry layer add a specifier
19:26:10  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka must use this grf to generate the industry
19:26:15  <Alberth> Terkhen: cargo1, cargo2, etc then, where you can pick the actual cargo :)
19:26:20  <Terkhen> ZxBiohazardZx: that defeats the point of the new format
19:26:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> true
19:26:38  <ZxBiohazardZx> well as i said, for me its important that towns/roads & canals are there
19:26:39  * Terkhen 's plan goes along industry classes and industry labels
19:26:43  <Terkhen> but I have not thought much about it
19:26:44  <ZxBiohazardZx> as most my changes are in those
19:26:47  <ZxBiohazardZx> trees as well ofc
19:26:55  <Terkhen> if I manage to implement everything else I'm happy already
19:27:02  <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah was bout to say
19:27:08  <ZxBiohazardZx> just getting the rest would be the main objective
19:27:43  <ZxBiohazardZx> also by making roads a 9 pixel block you get a huge road-layer image when playing big maps (2kx2k+)
19:28:10  <ZxBiohazardZx> 2048x2048 px heightmap results into a 6144*6144 roadmap?
19:29:01  <Terkhen> 6144*6144*4 is still relatively small
19:29:06  <Terkhen> IIRC it had four colours
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19:30:22  <ZxBiohazardZx> i was about to say, cant you make it 2048x2048 as well but use colors for the 9 possible road combinations on tile?
19:31:27  <Terkhen> do the math, the result in used bytes is about the same
19:31:41  <Terkhen> and we also would like to keep the image layers as human readable as possible
19:32:09  <ZxBiohazardZx> fair enough
19:32:15  <ZxBiohazardZx> 9 options, 9 pixels
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19:32:41  <Supercheese> Forwards-compatible with 45-degree roads? :P
19:32:45  <ZxBiohazardZx> or mip-map whatever
19:32:46  <Alberth> Terkhen: make the other images also 3x3 pixels per tile?
19:33:08  <Terkhen> why?
19:33:15  <Alberth> easier overlaying
19:33:23  <ZxBiohazardZx> Terkhen maybe add optional railway layer? or does that break newgrf again?
19:33:43  <Alberth> ZxBiohazardZx: scenarios don't have company stuff :)
19:33:49  <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah forgot
19:33:53  <Terkhen> fair point
19:33:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> old game had "scenario-saves"
19:33:58  <Terkhen> it would complicate things, though
19:34:02  <Terkhen> (the easier overlaying thing)
19:34:05  <ZxBiohazardZx> schotland 1945 & the desert one
19:34:08  <ZxBiohazardZx> but they were saves ofc
19:34:27  <ZxBiohazardZx> airports in case we ever get town-owned-airports of the ground?
19:34:35  <ZxBiohazardZx> (also why was that not possible again?)
19:34:44  *** cmircea [~cmircea@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:34:44  <ZxBiohazardZx> town-owned-stations in general for that matter
19:34:50  <Alberth> probably due to blocking
19:34:57  <Alberth> just like infra sharing
19:34:59  <ZxBiohazardZx> ah nvm it requires the non-trunked IS sharing
19:35:01  <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah
19:35:23  <ZxBiohazardZx> is-sharing is epic though
19:35:51  <Alberth> if you have co-operative players, yeah
19:36:23  <Alberth> yet you already see havoc at unsupervised MP games without IS
19:36:33  <Terkhen> I'll gladly let whoever codes IS the town stations in extended heightmap problems :)
19:36:35  <Alberth> imagine the mess if you add IS :)
19:36:50  <ZxBiohazardZx> for me is isnt that much of an issue but yeah
19:37:22  <ZxBiohazardZx> i play IS coop though :P
19:37:49  <ZxBiohazardZx> Terkhen maybe change Tropical Layer to "climate layer"
19:38:00  <ZxBiohazardZx> as then you can also integrate snowline etc for artic
19:38:48  <Terkhen> snowline is part of the general data
19:38:49  <ZxBiohazardZx> treeline (no trees in colored parts?)
19:39:01  <Terkhen> but I agree, the name could be changed for "future compatibility"
19:39:03  <ZxBiohazardZx> what in tropical layer isnt
19:39:23  <ZxBiohazardZx> k
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19:41:00  <ZxBiohazardZx> also for the industry thing
19:41:04  <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe make it optional param
19:41:14  <ZxBiohazardZx> if not provided then manual place your shizzles
19:41:24  <Terkhen> for industries I want a single, universal solution
19:41:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> if provided baseset then you can use pre-placed
19:41:28  <Terkhen> universal == newgrf agnostic
19:41:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah thats gonna be an issue with newgrfs changing them up so much
19:42:28  <ZxBiohazardZx> there is no standard, if you play with only certain ECS vectors or FIRS you have completely different industries then baseset
19:42:32  <ZxBiohazardZx> so yeah, tricky indeed
19:42:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> i assume trees are part of terrain
19:42:49  <ZxBiohazardZx> as we also have tree-changing-grfs :P
19:43:11  <Terkhen> ideally, the newgrf agnostic method would give great results if you use the same industry newgrf set, and not so great results if you change it
19:43:21  <Terkhen> I don't think it's possible to do something better than that
19:43:30  <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz fair enough
19:43:47  <ZxBiohazardZx> id put my signature up for anything that gives me the option of changing newgrfs for scenarios i play
19:43:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> usually different townsets/roadsets/bridgesets
19:44:37  <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe save industries on diff file/object that can be removed/purged if loaded with non-linked file?
19:44:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka if i create scn on ECS but dont load it, it has 0 industries and does not error about it
19:45:14  <ZxBiohazardZx> and i can manually place/fund/whatever industries if i truely need them?
19:45:45  <ZxBiohazardZx> new format will require the newgrf-selection to be a primairy part before playing/opening the scenario :P
19:45:52  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka the menu gui revamp someone mentioned
19:46:42  <Terkhen> since the new scenario format also lets you decide which settings and advanced settings you want to use
19:46:50  <Terkhen> you could recreate industries in any way you want
19:47:21  <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah currently reloading newgrfs in a running game is horribad
19:47:41  <ZxBiohazardZx> so the loading/starting a scenario with newformat needs a obligatory selection ofc
19:47:49  <ZxBiohazardZx> but other then that its a great suggestion
19:47:58  <ZxBiohazardZx> cant wait to see it work :P
19:48:07  <ZxBiohazardZx> wish i could help, but i cant code for shit :)
19:50:11  <Terkhen> the patch itself is relatively simple, Alberth already coded the complicated part
19:50:25  <ZxBiohazardZx> Terkhen what is needed?
19:50:46  <Terkhen> what is difficult is that it is quite big, and thinking what is needed to code and how to split it in small, manageable parts will be a PITA
19:50:54  <Terkhen> so... what is needed is time :)
19:52:10  <ZxBiohazardZx> :P good old time :(
19:53:43  <Terkhen> :P
19:53:57  <NGC3982>
19:54:00  <NGC3982> NGC1850
19:55:39  <Terkhen> that's your cousin?
19:55:44  <Terkhen> time for dinner, bbl
19:55:49  <NGC3982> indeed, it is.
19:55:53  <NGC3982> hey, a shot in the dark
19:55:59  <NGC3982> the word "brio"
19:56:08  *** ZxBiohazardZx [] has quit [Quit: Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.]
19:56:20  <NGC3982> used in the older british language
19:56:37  <NGC3982> what does it mean? i fail to find references on it.
19:56:47  <NGC3982> except eddie izzard in oceans' thirteen.
19:56:47  <NGC3982> ..
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20:31:49  * FLHerne gets stuck on multitile objects
20:32:21  <FLHerne> Anyone know how which bit of documentation I need to look at?
20:35:12  <Terkhen> NewGRF/NML specs?
20:36:59  <FLHerne> I sort of guessed that bit. Looked at Spriteset, Spritelayout and Item, but can't find what I'm looking for :-(
20:40:13  <frosch123> there is a property to set the size
20:40:16  <frosch123> and number of views
20:40:36  <frosch123> and there is a variable for switches to make stuff depend on the position within the object
20:41:04  <FLHerne> Ah. The third bit is what I need :-)
20:41:21  * FLHerne looks it up
20:43:57  <FLHerne> So I give relative_pos to a switch block to specify which graphics are drawn for each tile?
20:44:34  <FLHerne> Or did I completely misread that? :P
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20:48:17  <frosch123> correct
20:49:20  <FLHerne> Thanks :-)
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21:15:08  <LordAro> evening
21:19:11  <Terkhen> good night
21:22:17  <planetmaker> g'night Terkhen
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22:19:19  * FLHerne tries to decide between NML and sleep :P
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22:22:15  <LordAro> sleep. everytime.
22:22:17  * planetmaker suggests sleep and NML. In that order ;-)
22:23:27  <FLHerne> Ah well, tomorrow's Sunday :P
22:23:33  * FLHerne makes some tea
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22:28:58  <Wolf01> 'night
22:30:05  *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
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23:34:35  * NGC3982 makes lemonade.
23:42:53  <FLHerne> Which timezone?
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23:43:10  <FLHerne> Seems odd to make lemonade in the middle of the night :P
23:43:21  <Eddi|zuHause> how does lemonade depend on time zones?
23:44:14  <FLHerne> I just can't imagine wanting to drink lemonade while sitting at a keyboard in a pitch-dark room at 1 am :P
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23:58:05  <Elukka> i could

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