Log for #openttd on 15th July 2012:
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00:02:02  <V453000> hm, why could I be getting bananas error "A pack can contain only one license file." with this file? :o
00:02:03  <V453000> A pack can contain only one license file.
00:02:05  <V453000> zz
00:02:12  <V453000>
00:02:16  <V453000> there is just one license file
00:02:20  <V453000> just like in all other previous versions
00:02:26  <V453000> does anyone know what to do with that please?
00:06:17  * FLHerne finds a bug in KATE
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00:06:43  <FLHerne> It segfaults when deleting hidden (codefolded) lines :-(
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06:31:36  <planetmaker> V453000: have you selected any other than 'custom' license?
06:32:32  <planetmaker> moin all :-)
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07:27:13  <Alberth> moin
07:28:03  <Terkhen> good morning
07:28:49  <LordAro> mornings
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07:38:36  <Alberth> lo andy
07:45:20  <planetmaker> moin Alberth, LordAro
07:45:27  <Alberth> moin pm
07:45:59  <LordAro> hi pm, andy
07:47:17  <andythenorth> bonjour
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07:53:42  <planetmaker> salut andythenorth
08:05:26  * andythenorth ponders FISH
08:08:27  * Alberth ponders cargo monitoring
08:08:46  <andythenorth> ?
08:08:51  <andythenorth> sounds interesting
08:11:31  <Alberth> monitoring of cargo pickup & delivery by a company for game scripts :)
08:11:59  <andythenorth> sounds good
08:12:14  <andythenorth> how fine grained (i.e. where would you monitor?)
08:12:27  <andythenorth> per station?  per accepting / producing tile?
08:12:38  <Alberth> same as subsidies basically
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08:14:39  <Wolf01> hello o/
08:14:54  <Alberth> in particular pax is very hard to get to deliver to the 'right' place
08:14:59  <Alberth> hello Wolf01
08:17:09  <andythenorth> Alberth: you need a cargo routing algorithm :)
08:17:12  <andythenorth> NewDispatcher
08:17:37  <Alberth> nope, I just monitor where you bring it :)
08:18:00  * andythenorth watches Alberth duck the routing idea :P
08:18:07  <andythenorth> maybe someone else would do it
08:18:59  <Alberth> it's an intriguing problem, and I do want to have a go at it some day, but not in the near future
08:19:25  <Alberth> I feel cargo sources and destinations is not the right approach
08:19:38  <Alberth> the trouble is now, what is? :)
08:21:57  <Alberth> The steps in-between don't care where cargo comes from or goes to, ie they are generic transport services. Yet we push a source/target onto them, which makes the problem explode, as there are many sources/target combinations
08:22:40  <Alberth> Ie I want flow without the combinatorial explosion in cpu time
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08:38:04  <andythenorth> Alberth: 'flow' is also what I seek
08:38:47  <andythenorth> my ideas for approximating 'downhill' are based on looking only at next step
08:38:57  <andythenorth> hmm
08:39:08  <andythenorth> if I knew more about vector maths, it could be done that way
08:39:33  <andythenorth> cargo should take any available vector that is 'towards' the destination
08:39:39  * andythenorth goes back to ships
08:39:50  <andythenorth> water in rivers doesn't need to know where it's going
08:39:55  <andythenorth> it just goes down gradient
08:40:07  <andythenorth> voltage doesn't know where it's 'going'
08:40:17  <andythenorth> it just goes down the difference gradient
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08:41:01  <telanus> helllo
08:41:20  <telanus> quick question: what is a viewport?
08:41:21  <Zuu> hello
08:41:42  <telanus> busy translating and not sure what is meant
08:42:00  <Zuu> there are two types of them. There is the one at the back of your screen that show the landscape
08:42:11  <Zuu> There is also the extra viewports that open up in a window
08:43:47  <telanus> might be the landskape one. translating this: The maximum zoom-in level for viewports ...........
08:47:28  <Alberth> all viewports display part of the landscape :)
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08:53:28  <Alberth> andy, local checking only has no idea of where it is going.
08:53:49  <Alberth> which makes it miss "destinations" :)
08:57:29  <andythenorth> it's on a specific 'gradient'
08:57:43  <andythenorth> the gradient is towards a specific destination
08:58:22  <andythenorth> still requires a path-solving routine to run at [some frequency] to cache the gradient
08:58:30  <Alberth> flow is destination specific ?    that explodes, doesn't it?
08:58:34  <andythenorth> dunno
08:58:38  <andythenorth> vehicles seem to route ok
08:58:41  <andythenorth> without exploding
08:59:00  <Alberth> until you hit the CPU ceiling :)
08:59:06  <andythenorth> you end up with a gradient for every cargo-destination pair
08:59:12  <Alberth> and there are a lot more cargo packets :)
08:59:14  <andythenorth> but you can discard the source
08:59:40  <andythenorth> hmm
08:59:51  <andythenorth> migrating ship stats accurately to nml is tedious :P
09:00:15  <Alberth> why?
09:00:27  <Alberth> ie what is nml missing?
09:02:27  <andythenorth> an assistant for me
09:02:51  <andythenorth> I have three sources as well: tracking table, nfo, and I have to check the old grf in game for some stats
09:03:07  <andythenorth> new nml package: nml.assistant
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09:15:05  <andythenorth> hmm
09:15:35  <andythenorth> not being able to set costs directly
09:15:42  <andythenorth> needs some thought
09:16:29  <andythenorth> I need to know the most expensive ship in the set, so I can find the scale for 0-255 cost factor :P
09:16:38  <andythenorth> but the most expensive ship might not be added yet :P
09:17:30  <Alberth> sounds like a sucky design to me :p
09:19:02  <andythenorth> kind of necessary
09:19:15  <andythenorth> so you can have variable base costs I guess
09:20:59  * Alberth very much believes computers are much better in administrative tasks
09:22:04  <andythenorth> +1
09:22:34  <andythenorth> btw, the nml missing-string patch was essential :)
09:22:41  <andythenorth> using the errors a lot right now
09:23:21  <Alberth> it is fixed afaik :)
09:23:37  <andythenorth> yes
09:23:45  <andythenorth> that's what I meant ;)
09:24:40  <Alberth> any tool not given sane feedback to its users does not deserve to be used imho
09:24:44  <Alberth> *giving
09:25:27  <Alberth> unfortunately, many users accept it without even reporting it as bug
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09:33:19  <Wolf01> they might need to replace just a couple of pieces...
09:34:28  <Alberth> the gravel won :)
09:35:17  <NGC3982> too bad it hit the trailer, and not the truck.
09:35:22  <andythenorth> in soviet russia...
09:35:39  <NGC3982> did the driver survive?
09:36:24  <NGC3982> .."He probably escape to engine section - normal procedure in danger."
09:41:21  * andythenorth wonders what nml is doing with ship running costs
09:41:44  <andythenorth> I get an exciting 2/yr no matter which values I try for the action 0 prop
09:42:17  <andythenorth> I haven't adjusted any base cost yet
09:45:39  <andythenorth> local bug I think
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11:21:24  <andythenorth> hmm
11:21:31  <andythenorth> so my FISH buy menu is pretty crappy
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11:22:42  <andythenorth>
11:23:01  <andythenorth> fixing it is a simple matter of setting x, y values in the config file (plain text)
11:23:12  <andythenorth> want to help?
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11:26:38  <ZxBiohazardZx> Andy i didtn ahve that issue before, what did you change lol
11:30:05  <andythenorth> recoded to nml
11:30:15  <andythenorth> removed use of setx which is unofficially deprecated
11:30:21  <ZxBiohazardZx> aha
11:30:36  <andythenorth> and should be deprecated, but cowardice prevents that :P
11:32:45  <ZxBiohazardZx> cant you use the old x-y offsets though?
11:32:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka copy-paste into new format
11:33:52  <andythenorth> no, the space in the menu is narrower
11:33:52  <planetmaker> lol :-) andythenorth
11:34:29  <andythenorth> setx is not allowed to be implemented in nml, because it's unwanted, despite being in spec
11:34:34  <planetmaker> The cut-away-the-cobs attitude sometimes is really refreshing :-)
11:34:41  <andythenorth> but nobody wants to change spec because newgrf authors will whine
11:34:54  <andythenorth> so we have the odd situation where nml *refuses* to support the newgrf spec
11:35:02  <planetmaker> :-) yup
11:35:23  <planetmaker> it's by far not the only point where NML does not support every contingency
11:35:34  <planetmaker> For the same or similar reasons
11:35:51  <andythenorth> meh
11:36:04  <planetmaker> But maybe, it should be announced that a thing like XYZ will be deprecated in the upcoming major release or so
11:36:39  <planetmaker> Like "you got 9 months to fix it"
11:36:57  <andythenorth> just knock it out of next newgrf spec major version?
11:37:04  <andythenorth> what's next? v9?
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11:37:09  * andythenorth -> food
11:38:35  <planetmaker> for a v9 it needs imho more changes. Like grf v8 also accumulated. Actually over years
11:46:42  <Eddi|zuHause> the buy menu needs a configurable width by misc parameter, similar to the depot offset.
11:46:57  <Eddi|zuHause> the maximum over all GRFs is taken
11:47:20  <Eddi|zuHause> (per vehicle type)
11:54:58  <NGC3982> how is current data saved in the game, as i progresses? for instance, in case one would wish to parse current economy statistics to a third party software.
11:58:27  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the savegame format is a compressed RIFF format, each chunk has a handler in src/saveload/*.cpp
11:58:46  <Eddi|zuHause> the explicit format of the data differs from chunk to chunk
11:59:54  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: if you don't want to mess with the compression, you can write in your .cfg that you want to make uncompressed savegames
12:08:19  <planetmaker> and: the actual format of each chunk may change between revs without notice.
12:09:03  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think the buy menu sprite should be fixed to current size
12:09:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i disagree.
12:09:25  <andythenorth> when grfs use different sizes, the ragged edge is horrible
12:09:30  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: some flexibility is needed
12:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: especially with road vehicles (without road-wagons)
12:09:57  <andythenorth> so what do you need that setx doesn't provide?
12:10:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's the point of the "width" parameter, if you take the maximum over all grfs, there is no ragged edge
12:10:39  <andythenorth> point
12:11:44  <andythenorth> some sprites will be floating a long way from their name string though
12:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> whether there should be a maximum is a different discussion
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12:12:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and the sprites could be right-aligned
12:13:04  <andythenorth> I don't fancy handling bug reports due to the behaviour of other grfs
12:13:18  <Eddi|zuHause> (but that won't help with rtl-languages)
12:13:34  <andythenorth> sprites are centred in the buy menu
12:13:42  <andythenorth> are / should be according to the game style /s
12:13:52  <andythenorth> some grfs do it wrong and left-align
12:14:15  * andythenorth is feeling didactic, but is prepared to lose that point :P
12:14:40  <Eddi|zuHause> CETS sprites are left aligned without any special handling. the default vehicles all have the same length
12:15:20  <Eddi|zuHause> (double headed vehicles are "magic")
12:16:24  <Eddi|zuHause> but some of the longer wagons overlap with the text
12:16:32  <Eddi|zuHause> and there is no "sane" solution for that currently
12:16:48  <andythenorth> nor for FISH
12:17:08  <andythenorth> te
12:17:25  <andythenorth> the larger ships - there's no useful crop for them to current buy menu sprite size
12:17:27  <andythenorth>
12:17:36  <andythenorth> e.g. Shannon Freighter
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12:27:42  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: i think i understand. tho, a chunk seems to represent several actions and changes (and cant thus be usdd to collect real time changes?)
12:28:25  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: no. a chunk groups the information by type (i.e. all industries are gathered in one chunk, all trains in another chunk, etc.)
12:28:41  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: savegames are not "realtime" and you cannot construct the history out of them
12:28:59  <NGC3982> ah, i see.
12:30:10  <NGC3982> im getting my head around parsing data in our business systems, and making a third party client that connects to a server and collect economy statistics looked like a fun thing to start with.
12:32:51  <michi_cc> NGC3982: That's called admin port ( and not savegame.
12:33:23  * NGC3982 has a look
12:33:47  <andythenorth> so any bright ideas for fixing FISH buy menu? :P
12:33:55  * andythenorth is bamboozled
12:34:07  <NGC3982> ah.
12:34:24  <NGC3982> perfect. exactly what i was looking for.
12:35:10  <NGC3982> we play a lot of ttd amongst the supervisors, and i want to integrate server data in our business system.
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12:39:37  <andythenorth> quak
12:39:48  <frosch123> moin
12:41:16  <MNIM> oink
12:41:30  <FLHerne> How does CC recolouring work with objects in NML?
12:41:46  * FLHerne fails to understand the documentation again
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12:48:44  <Hirundo> FLHerne: I assume you use the 'colour' callback, what do you not understand about that?
12:49:32  <FLHerne> How to use it for stuff :P New to NML...
12:50:33  <Hirundo> FLHerne: what are you trying to achieve?
12:50:44  <FLHerne> There's stuff about colour translation pallettes, and recolour sprites, and various other stuff, and I'm not quite understanding how it all fits together :P
12:51:13  <FLHerne> Just trying to get cc bits on objects to match the company colour, nothing fancy :-(
12:54:01  <Hirundo> you should set recolour_mode to RECOLOUR_REMAP and palette to PALETTE_USE_DEFAULT in the sptirelayout sprites you want recoloured
12:54:23  * FLHerne looks
12:54:45  <Hirundo> RECOLOUR_REMAP enables recolouring for the sprite
12:54:48  <FLHerne> Ah, now I see :D
12:55:06  <Hirundo> PALETTE_USE_DEFAULT tells OpenTTD to use the default recolour sprite, which for objects is 1 CC
12:55:06  <FLHerne> Got confused by looking at stuff I didn't need to know about :P
12:55:19  <Hirundo> (or if enabled by the respective flag, 2 CC)
12:55:23  <FLHerne> Thanks :-)
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13:03:53  * andythenorth ponders autorefits
13:04:51  <andythenorth> vehicle ferries: refit anything
13:04:56  <andythenorth> automatically
13:05:31  <andythenorth> freight ships: autorefit if same class?
13:05:39  <andythenorth> makes no sense for lots of cargos, but meh :P
13:08:35  <andythenorth> e.g. scrap metal would be autorefittable to sugar beet
13:08:54  <andythenorth> clay would be autorefittable to wheat
13:09:34  <andythenorth> oil autorefittable to milk :P
13:09:44  <andythenorth> should I do label based checks?
13:10:24  <FLHerne> Probably
13:10:56  <frosch123> andythenorth: just please make auto-refitting symmetrical
13:11:03  <frosch123> else the gameplay will be horrible
13:11:08  <andythenorth> in which respect?
13:11:08  <FLHerne> I was going to say that :P
13:11:12  <andythenorth> oil <-> milk
13:11:24  <frosch123> don't allow refitting from sugar beet to scrap metal, if the reverse is not allowed
13:11:39  <frosch123> else a mixed line will end up with only scrap metal vehicles at some point
13:12:00  <FLHerne> UKRS2 allows you to refit, say, sugarbeet to wood but not wood to sugarbeet. Confusing and breaks things :-(
13:13:10  <frosch123> i.e. make refittability use real equivalency classes
13:13:17  <frosch123> symmetrical and transitive
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13:14:06  <andythenorth> how should I implement that?
13:14:44  * andythenorth is happy to
13:15:08  <frosch123> either label based or only allow refitting between exactly same cargoclasses
13:15:22  <frosch123> resp. ignore one class completely
13:16:16  <frosch123> if you allow bulk<->oversized and bulk<->powderized, you also have to allow oversized<->powderized
13:16:31  <andythenorth> and if I only allow in same class?
13:16:44  <andythenorth> hmm
13:16:48  <andythenorth> on a three hop journey
13:17:00  <frosch123> you must compare all classes then
13:17:17  <andythenorth> [BULK, PIECE] -> [PIECE] -> [PIECE, REFRIGERATED] -> [REFRIGERATED]
13:17:22  <frosch123> else you can refit bulk -> bulk+powder -> powder and not get back to bulk
13:17:23  <andythenorth> four hops, no more refit
13:17:42  <andythenorth> pathological case?  I think not :P
13:17:46  <andythenorth> refit all?
13:17:51  <andythenorth> easier :P
13:18:04  <frosch123> boring :p
13:18:32  <frosch123> better allow a vehicle to only carry bulk
13:18:36  <frosch123> and no powder ever
13:19:17  <MNIM> 0-o
13:19:18  <MNIM> dude
13:19:35  <MNIM> since when does mint have rolling updates on it's non-debian versions?
13:20:47  <FLHerne> It doesn't, does it? :o
13:20:50  <MNIM> well
13:21:18  <MNIM> I was very pleasantly surprised when I just checked and it turns out I installed the most recent version of OTTD via it's software manager.
13:21:45  <Sacro> MNIM: its
13:21:57  <frosch123> @topic get -2
13:21:57  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever
13:22:09  <frosch123> 'most recent' is not either
13:22:39  <telanus> nightly?
13:22:45  <telanus> :p
13:22:45  <frosch123> @topic set -2 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither
13:22:45  *** DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only
13:23:04  <MNIM> Sacro: ouch. It's/Its is one of those things in the english language I still do wrong
13:23:19  <MNIM> telanus: well, the latest stable, 1.2.1 according to the site
13:23:23  <Sacro> MNIM: it is -> it's, belonging to it -> its
13:23:38  <frosch123> sometimes there are also generic nightly packages, which grab the newest source from whenever you update them
13:23:45  <MNIM> yeah, I know the theory, I just keep doing it WRONG >.<
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13:25:20  * andythenorth thinks ships refit anything, automatically
13:25:41  <andythenorth> maybe I should split the tanker sprites to separate IDs
13:25:48  <andythenorth> despite they have same hull, stats etc
13:26:04  * telanus always plays with the latest nightly :D
13:26:17  <andythenorth> tankers -> refit any liquid
13:26:31  <andythenorth> not tanker -> refit anything except liquid
13:26:46  <telanus> that could work
13:27:05  * andythenorth refrigerated class?
13:27:21  <frosch123> refridgerated oil
13:27:35  <andythenorth> refrigerated LNG :P
13:27:59  <andythenorth> I don't really want to spam the buy menu with tankers
13:28:02  <andythenorth> but maybe I should
13:31:42  <andythenorth> if (liquid): auto-refit only if liquid
13:31:47  <andythenorth> else: refit any
13:31:49  <andythenorth> hmm
13:32:06  <andythenorth> that has some horrible edge cases with (liquid + something else)
13:32:11  <andythenorth> this sucks doesn't it :)
13:32:35  <andythenorth> I need storage on the vehicle
13:34:41  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ you are good at thorny problems
13:34:45  <Terkhen> andythenorth: tanker, passenger, anything else
13:35:09  <andythenorth> should I just spam the buy menu with tankers?
13:35:17  <Terkhen> no, use autorefit
13:35:30  <Terkhen> a ship can refit to all cargos
13:35:41  <andythenorth> my thinking too
13:35:42  <Terkhen> autorefitting between cargos of the same group is free
13:35:49  <andythenorth> how do you define group?
13:35:50  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if passengers, refit to passengers, if liquid refit to liquid, if non-liquid refit to non-liquid and non-passenger
13:36:01  <Terkhen> refitting between cargos of different groups has a cost and must be done at a shipyard
13:36:17  <Terkhen> andythenorth: tanker, passenger, anything else would be the groups in this case
13:36:17  <andythenorth> so exact match of classes?
13:36:27  * andythenorth is puzzled how to implement
13:36:31  <Terkhen> check ogfx-rv readme, that's how I did groups
13:36:33  <andythenorth> maybe I can store something on the animation frame
13:36:38  <Eddi|zuHause> no, exact match of the "passenger" and "liquid" classes, don't-care on all others
13:36:43  * Terkhen implements it based on cargo labels
13:37:04  <andythenorth> so 'liquid' can't refit to 'liquid, refrigerated' ?
13:37:16  <Eddi|zuHause> it can, because refrigerated is "don't care"
13:37:43  <andythenorth> hmm
13:38:04  <andythenorth> people who don't want vehicles 'stuck' in a certain class - shouldn't use autorefit
13:38:05  <andythenorth> ?
13:39:33  <andythenorth> Terkhen: do you maintain lists of clean / dirty cargo labels?
13:39:54  <Terkhen> andythenorth: <--- an explanation of how it works in ogfx-rv
13:40:02  <andythenorth> was reading it ;)
13:40:08  <Terkhen> andythenorth: <--- and the source
13:40:18  <Terkhen> as I said, I do it label by label
13:40:21  <andythenorth> ok so yes, by label
13:40:25  <andythenorth> hmm
13:40:32  <andythenorth> you make work for yourself in future?
13:40:57  <Terkhen> if a new cargo is added, it would need at most a new line for each vehicle :)
13:41:10  <andythenorth> fine
13:41:26  <Terkhen> I could try to find a cargo class scheme, but this is simpler to understand
13:41:32  <andythenorth> frosch123: I don't see any easy way to guarantee symmetrical refits
13:41:45  <Terkhen> what do you mean with symmetrical refits?
13:42:07  <andythenorth> basically, a warranty that all your vehicles won't end up autorefitted to scrap metal, with no way out
13:42:12  <andythenorth> for example
13:42:46  <andythenorth> on a four hop order list, you could easily start with cargo x, and have no way back to it
13:42:58  <andythenorth> e.g [BULK, PIECE] -> [PIECE] -> [PIECE, REFRIGERATED] -> [REFRIGERATED]
13:43:03  <andythenorth> can't get back to BULK
13:43:06  <andythenorth> so your route breaks
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13:45:03  <frosch123> andythenorth: you have to limit the clases you check
13:45:28  <andythenorth> example? :)
13:45:40  * andythenorth thinks there will be a pathological case for every scheme
13:45:55  <frosch123> if you have a specific rule to allow refitting piece to piece, you have to forbid refitting non-piece to piece and vice versa
13:46:46  <frosch123> so, you can make one vehicle which carries all piece goods and can refit between them
13:46:55  <frosch123> but it may not carry anything non-piece
13:47:20  <frosch123> simliar you can make a vehicle that can carry refridgerated stuff, but it may not carry non-refridged stuff
13:47:52  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: example 1 above is "ignore piece/bulk differences", example 2 would be, you have a "main" class for the ship, e.g. "piece" then you can refit to from "piece" to "piece, bulk" and vice versa, but not from "piece, bulk" to "bulk"
13:49:08  <andythenorth> hmm
13:49:21  * andythenorth is going to do some driving for 2 hours, that often produces an answer
13:49:35  <andythenorth> currently, it looks like adding tankers to the set might be the best solution
13:49:53  <andythenorth> the issue with tankers is that they have completely different graphics, I don't want them changing at stations
13:50:04  <andythenorth> that adds ~20 ships to the buy menu :P
13:50:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the idea was that anything that has "liquid" [and any other combination] cargo class can refit, and anything that has "not liquid" [and any combination] can refit
13:51:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so "piece,liquid" will be counted as liquid in all cases
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13:52:45  <andythenorth> k, bbl
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14:51:45  <frosch123> V453000: try bananas upload again
14:54:05  <MNIM> andy, you're the one that makes FIRS, right?
14:55:57  <LordAro> why is it that to install doxygen i have to get ~500MB of archives??
15:02:15  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
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15:03:07  <frosch123> maybe it contains the docs of everything
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15:06:12  <Eddi|zuHause> :)
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15:28:25  <cyph3r> Is OpenTTDCoop on this server?
15:28:30  <cyph3r> I mean IRC.
15:29:47  <Zuu> #openttdcoop
15:30:30  <Zuu> you could try "!password" here to get a prompt message about it :-)
15:30:42  <cyph3r> !password
15:30:42  *** cyph3r was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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15:30:51  * Alberth slaps Zuu :)
15:30:56  <cyph3r> Zuu : not cool :-D
15:31:10  <Zuu> :-)
15:31:38  <Zuu> well at least I warned you
15:32:13  <cyph3r> Yes, kick without a warning would be unpleasant.
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15:46:55  <ZxBiohazardZx> lol
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16:05:30  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24402 /trunk/src/ (elrail.cpp newgrf_station.cpp station_cmd.cpp station_func.h): -Fix [FS#5243]: Station properties 11 and 14 were combined incorrectly.
16:07:03  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24403 /trunk/src/elrail.cpp: -Fix: Draw wires under low bridges if the bridge is transparent, not if the wire is transparent.
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16:15:00  <LordAro> funny how sometimes, you find ancient bugs that you wonder why no one noticed before :)
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16:22:36  <andythenorth> vehicles don't have an animation frame?
16:22:42  <andythenorth> they have to rely on the motion counter?
16:22:53  <frosch123> they have time and motion counter
16:23:03  <frosch123> they have no persistent storage
16:23:34  <andythenorth> k
16:23:55  <andythenorth> I thought we'd have abused it by now if there was animation frame :P
16:24:55  <Chris_Booth> hi
16:25:17  <andythenorth> using a trackpad is harder with a toddler sitting on your forearm
16:27:33  <andythenorth> the refit issue I have with FISH is another manifestion of 'cargo subtypes are a bad hack'
16:27:48  <andythenorth> at least for changing the physical properties of the vehicle
16:28:20  * andythenorth has ideas
16:28:36  <andythenorth> (1) vehicles get storage; never seems to get resolved if we like this or not
16:29:07  <andythenorth> (2) give buy menu 'categories', same as for stations; then group vehicles by category ('Tankers', 'Cargo Ships') etc
16:29:08  *** KouDy [~KouDy@] has joined #openttd
16:29:41  <andythenorth> (3) continue to use subtype as a hack, but introduce a new magic cargo for use in refit menu, which is equivalent to 'any valid refittable cargo'
16:30:32  <andythenorth> which would allow things like 'Any valid refittable cargo for tanker', 'Any valid refittable cargo for general cargo vessel'
16:30:42  <andythenorth> (4) spam the buy menu
16:31:37  <frosch123> the buy menu is only spammed if people do not use the retire early property
16:32:15  <andythenorth> I should learn how that works :P
16:32:43  * andythenorth is leaning towards 'add ship IDs for tankers'
16:32:56  <andythenorth> probably also 'reefers' and 'livestock carriers'
16:33:42  <andythenorth> FISH already has 30 ships or so
16:33:53  <andythenorth> dunno another 20 really enhances it :|
16:35:18  <FLHerne> It'll never be as bad as eGRVTS, so go ahead :P
16:35:24  <frosch123> i think whenever i played fish, all ships were already available
16:35:33  <frosch123> i did never noticed anyone being introduced new
16:35:50  <frosch123> are all introdates before 1920?
16:36:03  <frosch123> or after 1980?
16:36:10  <FLHerne> More variety would definitely be nice :-)
16:38:15  <FLHerne> Is using multiple industry sets a universal [no], or would it be possible to have industry sets that were compatible?
16:38:30  <andythenorth> all intro dates are 1870 for FISH
16:38:48  <andythenorth> industry sets could be compatible via co-operation between authors
16:39:11  <andythenorth> I'm going to cut down the scope of FISH to start around 1920
16:39:20  <andythenorth> the long game is over-rated
16:39:50  <andythenorth> but I remain puzzled about autorefit
16:42:15  <FLHerne> andythenorth: :-(
16:42:35  <FLHerne> Long games are the best kind :P
16:53:25  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r24404 /trunk/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Add: Data structures for cargo transport monitoring.
16:55:14  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r24405 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Add: Save and load of active cargo monitors.
16:56:52  *** TWerkhoven [] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into]
16:59:22  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: alberth * r24406 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): -Feature: Allow game scripts to monitor cargo pickups and deliveries done by companies.
17:00:33  <Alberth> with many thanks to Zuu for his assistance
17:00:49  <Zuu> nice :-)
17:01:02  <ZxBiohazardZx> i think FISH covers the modern era quite well with different sized ships
17:02:07  <ZxBiohazardZx> it could use some older boats/barges though, smaller steam ones or early diesels with smaller capacity (think english narrow-canalboats, the pulled from shore boats (using horsed usually) etc etc
17:06:53  <andythenorth> currently FISH is beached
17:08:31  <andythenorth> stuck on: buy menu + autorefit
17:09:27  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Buy menu looks a pain. What's up with autorefit?
17:10:06  <andythenorth> no sane scheme to make it work
17:11:28  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Is that concept or implementation? Or both? :P
17:11:38  <andythenorth> concept
17:12:48  * FLHerne thinks
17:13:03  <andythenorth> I'll probably use the idea from Eddi|zuHause
17:13:15  <andythenorth> I do in more cases than not
17:17:01  <andythenorth> I could use cargo subtype
17:17:14  <V453000> Hi! I am trying to update my newGRF on bananas and as usual, I add a zip with grf, license, readme and changelog. In compare to the older versions is changed not only .grf file but also readme file a bit. As a result I am getting an error "a package can include only one license file" :o Does anyone know what to do with that please?
17:18:38  <michi_cc> V453000: Did you try after 17:02 CEST?
17:18:46  <V453000> yesterday, not today
17:18:49  <V453000> will try noaw
17:18:53  <FLHerne> Separate tankers in buy menu/vehicle types. Allow autorefitting between all bulk mineral types. Allow autorefitting between all 'clean' bulk types (grain/beet). Allow depot-only refitting between dirty/clean bulk types.
17:19:18  <V453000>  yay it worked now michi_cc :D thanks
17:19:24  <V453000> something changed?
17:19:52  <frosch123> yup :p
17:20:04  <frosch123> since yesterday you can add translated readmes and changelogs
17:20:11  <frosch123> since today you can upload custom licenses again :p
17:20:22  <V453000> oh right :)
17:20:25  <andythenorth> autorefit adds a lot of micro-management
17:20:31  <andythenorth> ironically
17:21:25  <FLHerne> Allow autorefitting between refrigerated types. Allow (expensive) depot-only refitting between this and bulk types.
17:22:04  <FLHerne> Allow depot-only refitting between pax and mail.
17:22:52  <FLHerne> Allow autorefit between supplies/timber/metal/goods. Do not allow autorefitting of tankers, but have cheap depot refits.
17:23:11  <andythenorth> how do you satisfy the 'refits must be symmetric' condition?
17:23:34  <andythenorth> grain > clay but ! clay > grain in this scheme ;)
17:23:47  <andythenorth> fails symmetric requirement
17:23:52  <FLHerne> Allow (expensive) depot refit between supplies etc and other no-tanker/non-pax types. There. Done :P
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17:24:21  <FLHerne> andythenorth: No. only depot refit between dirty/clean bulk types :P
17:24:36  <andythenorth> not symmetric :)
17:25:07  <FLHerne> Forbid autorefit from clean -> dirty, not just dirty -> clean
17:25:15  * FLHerne draws diagram
17:25:41  <frosch123> FLHerne: asymmetric refittability sucks for gameplay
17:26:00  <frosch123> though i cannot remember whether you can allow autorefitting and make it cost at the same time
17:27:20  <andythenorth> it's important not to have asymmetric across a chain of refits too
17:27:50  <andythenorth> e.g. one refit might be symmetric, but the classes are also the union of two asymmetric refits
17:28:30  <andythenorth> so you end up with a lof of micromanagement
17:29:03  <andythenorth> because your vehicles a forever getting stuck at stations unable to refit
17:29:10  <andythenorth> a / are /s
17:29:43  <FLHerne> FLHerne: No assymetric autorefits. Just can't explain intelligibly
17:29:54  *** ZxBiohazardZx [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
17:31:34  * andythenorth is heading towards 'autorefit any'
17:32:24  <frosch123> you could try making autorefit rediculous expensive :p
17:32:56  <frosch123> refitting oil->water for 10 times is worth a new vehicle
17:33:14  <zxbiohazardzx_> give it a limited number of refits?
17:33:20  <zxbiohazardzx_> aka max refits = X
17:33:21  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24407 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt korean.txt):
17:33:21  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:33:21  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 15 changes by telanus
17:33:21  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 11 changes by telk5093
17:33:35  <andythenorth> having considered it, I don't like any of this stuff
17:33:36  <zxbiohazardzx_> reduce 1 per refit, when 0 do not allow refitting but insist on new ?
17:33:47  <andythenorth> refit is opaque to the user, there's nothing about it in the GUI
17:33:54  <andythenorth> it's mystery meat
17:34:09  <andythenorth> I don't think playing a guessing game of 'wtf, how does autorefit work' is a fun game
17:34:20  <andythenorth> smells all wrong to me
17:34:36  <andythenorth> Alberth: Terkhen you wanted autorefit in FISH?
17:35:31  <zxbiohazardzx_> would it be possible for eg the rivership to carry coal for 50% and iron for other 50%
17:35:42  <Alberth> difficult to say, I have had one case where auto-refit would be useful
17:35:43  <zxbiohazardzx_> aka mimic the real-life loading bays inside the ship
17:35:50  <andythenorth> zxbiohazardzx_ if you make two trips, each half-empty, yes
17:35:53  <zxbiohazardzx_> aka multiple cargos within a ship
17:36:08  <zxbiohazardzx_> andythenorth no i suggested to have 1 trip, both cargos in 1 ship
17:36:19  <Alberth> at the same time :)
17:36:20  <andythenorth> have two smaller ships
17:36:30  <zxbiohazardzx_> no
17:36:39  <zxbiohazardzx_> i want 1 big ship with split cargo option
17:36:56  <zxbiohazardzx_> bulk/bulk
17:36:58  <andythenorth>
17:37:04  <zxbiohazardzx_> yeah yeah
17:37:29  <andythenorth> if you provide a patch, it might be accepted
17:37:36  <zxbiohazardzx_>
17:37:39  <andythenorth> I'll code newgrf support for it if you add it
17:37:47  <zxbiohazardzx_> hmmz
17:38:34  <Alberth> andythenorth: so it happens some times, and it would be fun to see how auto-refit would handle it. However, I cannot oversee all consequences of auto-refit, perhaps it makes life too complicated
17:38:44  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I sent you a diagram as a PM
17:39:09  <FLHerne> Is there something like pastebin for images?
17:40:43  <zxbiohazardzx_> imagedump, imageshack or eehm
17:40:50  <zxbiohazardzx_> there was a imagedropper somewhere
17:41:01  <zxbiohazardzx_>
17:42:05  <andythenorth> hmm
17:42:12  <andythenorth> so FLHerne proposes label based refit
17:42:18  <andythenorth> maybe that's the right answer
17:42:28  <FLHerne> With diagram: :P
17:42:48  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Class-based refits would have strange cases
17:42:53  <andythenorth> label based autorefit would need a class based fallback
17:43:01  <andythenorth> otherwise the grf can't support new cargos
17:43:17  <FLHerne> True. Not that many industry grfs though :P
17:43:56  <FLHerne> Pikkabird's UKRS2 has class-based refits, some of which are totally nonsensical :-(
17:44:09  <andythenorth> so can't refit from e.g. grain to goods - what's the reasoning?
17:44:18  <andythenorth> would need explaining to players
17:44:33  <frosch123> add a translated readme :p
17:44:42  <FLHerne> Grain tends not to come in convenient boxes :P
17:44:48  <zxbiohazardzx_> ships refitting code is in ship_cmd?
17:45:02  <andythenorth> FLHerne: so cargos are always in one and only one group?
17:45:14  <FLHerne> I suppose you could have it in both categories, it would make sense for sacks
17:45:34  <FLHerne> No. I started typing the above before your answer, though
17:45:49  <andythenorth> has to be one and only one group per label
17:45:59  <ben1066_> the openttd android port is unofficial right?
17:46:03  <andythenorth> otherwise you can get vehicles stuck in a dead-end refit
17:46:07  *** ben1066_ is now known as ben1066
17:46:11  <FLHerne> Ok, have it in one group then :P
17:46:18  <ben1066> what do you guys think of it on tablets in anycase?
17:46:52  <FLHerne> Unless you could differentiate between grain (piece goods) and grain (clean bulk) with cargo subtypes?
17:46:54  <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx_: I suspect in vehicle_* somewhere, as all types of transport can do refitting
17:47:00  <FLHerne> Unsure how those work, tbh
17:47:12  <FLHerne> ben1066: Hopeless without a mouse.
17:47:19  <zxbiohazardzx_> hmmz k, ship_cmd only has building a ship, not refitting it :P
17:47:38  <andythenorth> so which group does wood go in?
17:47:44  * Zuu likes tablets as in wacom tablets
17:47:56  <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx_:   grep Refit src/*.cpp  :)
17:47:57  <Zuu> Eg as a mouse replacement, used with a pen
17:48:15  <Alberth> andythenorth: long things
17:48:25  <FLHerne> andythenorth Unsure. Probably with goods/timber. Others would make even less sense
17:48:27  <Zuu> A fat finger on the other hand can't do right/middle clicks and have much worse precision.
17:48:36  <andythenorth> where does scrap metal go?
17:48:50  <FLHerne> Dirty bulk, definitely
17:48:55  <andythenorth> sugar beet?
17:49:04  <FLHerne> Clean bulk
17:49:20  <FLHerne> Recyclables - unsure
17:49:23  <andythenorth> food?
17:49:28  <FLHerne> Refrigerated
17:49:32  <andythenorth> wood products?
17:50:21  <FLHerne> Which kind? Timber is piece, goods from paper mill are also piece
17:50:40  <andythenorth> wood products covers timber, board, wood chips
17:50:59  <frosch123> lumber is dirty bulk, wood products are clean builk
17:51:00  <FLHerne> Scrap is because it makes sense for gameplay - goes to the same places as coal/bauxite/ore :P
17:51:14  <andythenorth> cut wood is clean bulk? :o
17:51:28  <andythenorth> it's not pourable
17:51:32  <FLHerne> frosch123: Unconvinced. Timber is definitely piece goods.
17:51:42  <andythenorth> cut wood is countable
17:51:51  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Are there non-timber wood products in ECS or FIRS?
17:51:59  <andythenorth> in ECS yes
17:52:01  * andythenorth ponders
17:52:09  <andythenorth> it's silly to do this for one vehicle set
17:52:15  <andythenorth> it should be a standard across sets
17:52:23  <andythenorth> frosch123 can we have a new cargo property: 'cargo group' ?
17:52:37  <andythenorth> it would be ideal for this situation
17:52:42  * FLHerne agrees. This is silly :P
17:53:11  <andythenorth> cargo groups will need identifiers / names
17:53:17  <andythenorth> what would they be?
17:54:01  <frosch123> FLHerne: i have seen trucks with stake wagons for wood
17:54:10  <frosch123> but on trains i have only seen open wagons with wood
17:54:58  <Eddi|zuHause> wood isn't carried on rail as often as it used to
17:55:02  <zxbiohazardzx_> hmmz so far i cant find anything for it :(
17:55:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what would "group" be fundamentally different from "class"?
17:55:58  <FLHerne> frosch123: All UK wood trains I've seen are staked
17:56:15  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it would solve all these problems of course ;)
17:56:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's fairly unlikely :p
17:56:36  <zxbiohazardzx_> actually i think my question comes down to articulated ships
17:56:39  <zxbiohazardzx_> or at least cargowise
17:56:51  <andythenorth> zxbiohazardzx_: +1
17:56:52  <zxbiohazardzx_> so engine.cpp would require a similar line as road/trains have?
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17:57:01  <frosch123> google has lots of staked wood trains
17:57:17  <andythenorth> invisible articulated ships ~= ships with n holds
17:57:36  <zxbiohazardzx_> ala case VEH_SHIP: if(this->u.ship?.capacity ==0) return false; break;
17:57:44  <zxbiohazardzx_> assuming ship for its rail and road....
17:57:46  <andythenorth> ships can't collide so should be easy ;)
17:58:08  <zxbiohazardzx_> well ship_cmd doesnt limit cargoes
17:58:17  <zxbiohazardzx_> it simply gets teh cargo from engine.cpp
17:58:27  <zxbiohazardzx_> 	const ShipVehicleInfo *svi = &e->u.ship;
17:58:37  <zxbiohazardzx_> 		v->cargo_type = e->GetDefaultCargoType();
17:58:37  <zxbiohazardzx_> 		v->cargo_cap = svi->capacity;
17:58:52  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: in germany the "Drehschemelwagen" was common. it's basically two short wagons which can be adjusted in distance according to what is loaded on them.
17:59:14  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: for the tricky case, I'm going to do something like 'if current subtype == Tanker, and cargo subtype == Tanker, allow'
17:59:25  <andythenorth> and similar for 'General Cargo' subtype
17:59:44  <zxbiohazardzx_> 		case VEH_SHIP:
17:59:44  <zxbiohazardzx_> 			capacity = GetEngineProperty(this->index, PROP_SHIP_CARGO_CAPACITY,         this->u.ship.capacity, v);
17:59:44  <zxbiohazardzx_> 			break;
17:59:48  <andythenorth> I can also handle ships that have different graphics for PAX  cargo this way
17:59:52  <zxbiohazardzx_> blegh, stupid point to point to point :(
18:00:17  <zxbiohazardzx_> PROP_SHIP_CARGO_CAPACITY is a variable you can set in newgrf i assume?
18:00:17  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Those would be 'single bolsters' here, used to be common.
18:01:14  <zxbiohazardzx_> whatever i have to go :(
18:01:18  <zxbiohazardzx_> back later
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18:01:49  <andythenorth> nobody tell zx how hard patching ships is
18:02:00  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- looks like this. the pieces on top of the wagon can rotate, and the pieces in front of the wagon define the distance
18:02:08  <andythenorth> he might achieve it if he doesn't know he has to figure out the refit gui and all the things we couldn't agree on previouslyu
18:02:25  <Alberth> :)
18:02:46  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- looks like this when loaded
18:14:24  <Terkhen> andythenorth: sorry, I was away
18:14:27  <Terkhen> I'm lucky today? :)
18:18:51  <Alberth> you always are :)
18:20:10  <Terkhen> I don't think so :P
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19:00:36  <andythenorth> so in FISH I'm going to allow autorefit if cargo subtype matches
19:01:03  <andythenorth> and I'm going to introduce cargo subtypes that describe the current physical shape of the ship
19:01:12  <andythenorth> this doesn't work for BANDIT :|
19:01:16  <andythenorth> but nvm
19:01:42  <FLHerne> "cargo subtypes that describe the current physical shape of the ship"?
19:01:52  <andythenorth> Tanker
19:01:56  <andythenorth> General cargo vessel
19:02:30  <Terkhen> hmmm
19:02:52  <Terkhen> I'm not sure if that's overcomplicated or the first useful usage of cargo subtypes I have seen
19:03:10  <FLHerne> Oh. Like that. :P
19:03:32  <andythenorth> subtypes are very valid for this case
19:03:33  <FLHerne> Why doesn't it work for BANDIT?
19:03:45  <andythenorth> maybe it can
19:03:54  * andythenorth wonders how may subtypes are supported
19:04:21  <FLHerne> Also, does that allow autorefitting between (say) Milk and Petrol?
19:04:39  <andythenorth> yes
19:05:10  <andythenorth> hmm
19:05:11  <FLHerne> You'll give all the TT-People nasty diseases :-(
19:05:19  <andythenorth> where is the var for cargo subtype hiding in the wiki?
19:05:22  <__ln__> Anyone been to the Cité de Espace in Toulouse?
19:05:48  <__ln__> correction: Cité de l'espace
19:06:36  <andythenorth> cargo subtype has values 0..255
19:06:43  <FLHerne> Can't you add separate subclasses for Tanker (clean) and Tanker (poisonous) ;p
19:06:53  <andythenorth> possibly
19:06:56  <andythenorth> not an insane suggestion
19:07:08  <andythenorth> how many bits can I stuff in 0..255 if I use it as a bitmask?
19:07:15  <FLHerne> Actually, getting oil residue in chemicals might be a bad thing (r) too :P
19:07:38  <andythenorth> FLHerne: my company always flushes the tanks with steam before reloading :P
19:07:41  <andythenorth> the customer pays
19:08:02  <FLHerne> Add an autorefit cost for tankers then?
19:08:15  <andythenorth> then it wont autorefit at stations
19:08:23  <FLHerne> Oh, ok
19:08:28  <andythenorth> if I can bit-stuff the cargo subtype, I can use it for both: number trailers for a truck, type of current trailers
19:08:44  <andythenorth> 0, 2, 4, 8 = number of trailers
19:09:03  <andythenorth> 16, 32, 64, 128
19:09:10  <andythenorth> hmm only 4 types available :(
19:10:04  <FLHerne> Do you need 4 bits for no of trailers? Or did I miss something?
19:10:18  <andythenorth> between 0 and 3 trailers per truck
19:10:54  <FLHerne> Surely that's 2 bits? Or does that not work in NML/NFO?
19:11:27  <andythenorth> works for bits
19:11:33  <FLHerne> s/not work/work differently/
19:11:33  <andythenorth> dunno it if works for a bit mask
19:11:47  <andythenorth> trailer types, I have at least 5: Tanker, Box, Flat, Tipper, Stakes
19:14:20  <FLHerne> That's still only 5 bits out of 8? Correct me if totally wrong, I haven't tried to use that in NML yet :P
19:17:35  <andythenorth> hmm
19:17:40  <andythenorth> do I only need 3 for the trailers?
19:17:47  <andythenorth> no bits set = no trailers
19:17:52  <andythenorth> bit 1 set = 1 trailer
19:17:53  <andythenorth> etc
19:19:10  <FLHerne> If you only have 0 to 3, you should only need 2 bits :P
19:19:31  * FLHerne probably missed the point again
19:21:40  <andythenorth> 2 = 1 trailer, 4 = 2 trailers, 6 = 3 trailers
19:21:40  <andythenorth> ok
19:21:43  <andythenorth> 2 bits
19:22:29  <andythenorth> BANDIT has this nice feature where it will choose random trailer graphics for some cargos
19:22:33  <andythenorth> that needs to be removed :P
19:23:32  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why? Random is nice :-)
19:23:48  <andythenorth> incompatible with autoreft
19:24:11  <andythenorth> makes autorefit orders non-deterministic
19:24:17  <andythenorth> which causes micro-management
19:25:19  <FLHerne> That makes sense now :-)
19:29:50  <michi_cc> andythenorth: autorefit can have a cost if you use the CB.
19:30:32  * andythenorth should read the spec :P
19:31:12  <andythenorth> for some reason I thought cost had to be 0 for autorefit
19:31:13  <andythenorth> nvm
19:31:42  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Possibly because no-one uses that yet?
19:36:47  <Alberth> good night
19:37:06  <andythenorth> bye Alberth
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19:44:57  <andythenorth> ho
19:45:07  * andythenorth just played a flash game with 'achievments'
19:45:19  <andythenorth> I've heard of these, but never ever played a game with them
19:45:27  <andythenorth> why doesn't openttd have them? :P
19:47:17  <telanus1> what type of achievements could OpenTTD have?
19:47:22  *** telanus1 is now known as telanus
19:47:50  <andythenorth> 'you built a train: 50 points!'
19:47:50  <frosch123> build 100 trains
19:48:10  <frosch123> transport 1000 tons of coal with one train in a year
19:48:24  <andythenorth> frosch123: achievments or goals? :P
19:48:26  <frosch123> bought 3 opponents within one game
19:48:37  <andythenorth>
19:48:38  <frosch123> achievement
19:48:44  <KenjiE20> coop achievement, cover 80% of land in tracks
19:48:44  <telanus> "Build a Airroute that brings in 0000 per trip"
19:50:37  <frosch123> andythenorth: like highscores, but based on different things
19:50:44  <andythenorth> yes
19:50:56  <andythenorth> I am a bit cynical about 'achievements' tbh
19:50:59  <frosch123> things you do not know in advance
19:51:18  <andythenorth> GS could deliver achievments
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20:00:05  <andythenorth> reefer ships have been around a long time :o
20:00:07  <andythenorth>
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20:02:16  *** mode/#openttd [+o peter1138] by ChanServ
20:02:46  <peter1138> Evenin'
20:02:55  <Rubidium> EHLO
20:03:39  <peter1138> I'm not falling into the trap of pretending to be an ESMTP server...
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20:07:37  <frosch123> night
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20:37:14  <Terkhen> good night
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21:50:19  <LordAro> g'night to anyone who's left
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22:12:44  <Wolf01> 'night
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