Log for #openttd on 21st July 2012:
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00:11:21  <Wolf01> 'night
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04:05:07  <Diablo> hi
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04:12:31  <Diablo> !rules
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05:59:54  <Wolf01> hello
06:06:51  <Rubidium> 'ola
06:14:26  <Wolf01> uhm, I'm trying to open the in-line volume control of my stereo headpohones because it has a false contact, I can't find a weak spot, I think I'll resort to violence
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06:26:38  <Wolf01> opened! the good new is that the cables are ok, the bad new is that the problem seem to be the trimmer :(
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06:31:06  <Wolf01> hello Alberth
06:32:47  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
06:33:17  <Alberth> it's quiet, no new posts in the openttd forums even
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06:45:02  <Rubidium> Alberth: then continue with zbase and let your computer make some noise
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06:55:16  <Alberth> that would be mostly the fan, as building zbasebuild takes ages :)
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06:57:47  <Alberth> o/ LordAro
06:57:57  <LordAro> hai Alberth
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08:07:21  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:34:12  <Sleepie> moin
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09:29:22  <planetmaker> moin
09:40:50  <dihedral> oi
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09:46:48  <frosch123> hmm, what debian package might contain /usr/include/mysql/mysql.h
09:47:11  <frosch123> libmysqlclient-dev maybe
09:47:40  <frosch123> hmm, oh, i already have that file
09:48:21  <frosch123> no, i do not... wrong window
09:50:46  <frosch123> yay, success
09:51:05  <Alberth> just switch windows until you find it :)
09:55:05  <frosch123> does svn 1.7 support externals for single files meanwhile?
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10:05:14  <Rubidium> frosch123:
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10:06:20  <Rubidium> though it doesn't seem to exist for sid; it does exist for wheezy and experimental
10:10:54  <Sleepie> frosch123: <- from there it says yes, but only in th same repo, no inter-repo support, see last paragraph
10:11:02  <Sleepie> +e
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10:13:43  <frosch123> symbolic links are already supported by svn 1.4
10:13:57  <frosch123> but that's not an external
10:18:08  <Sleepie> yes more a kind of internal
10:19:54  <Alberth> If 1.6 didn't have it, I wouldn't expect it in 1.7, they have problems enough removing all .svn directores in all sub-root directories
10:21:28  <Sleepie> which is fortunately the case since 1.7
10:27:36  <frosch123> ottd 0.7 looks awkward
10:28:42  <Alberth> :)
10:28:57  <Alberth> try 0.6, it has a funny AI
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10:53:59  <Alberth> FLHerne: your harbour picture in the CHIPS thread  seems to suggest to me you want concrete under your rail tracks
11:01:57  <FLHerne> Alberth: Between the rails in CHIPS? Or is that a comment on NuTracks ballast? Or both? :P
11:02:52  <Alberth> under the diagonal tracks + crossings north of the ship depot
11:03:47  <FLHerne> Not really - that's a 3rd-rail electrified mainline :P
11:03:58  <Sleepie> maybe even only under the diagonals
11:04:04  <FLHerne> Would be useless as a loading pad :P
11:04:19  <Sleepie> just eyecandy
11:04:37  <FLHerne> I'd like half-tile triangles to fit between the station and mainline though :-)
11:04:41  <Alberth> you see often rail tracks fully embedded in the pavement in industrial areas
11:05:08  <FLHerne> Alberth: Yes, but not 90mph mainlines :P
11:05:16  <Alberth> :)
11:05:20  <FLHerne> That would be dangerous :-(
11:05:40  <Alberth> the concrete may jump up :p
11:06:01  <FLHerne> People would step on the 3rd-rail, too...
11:06:10  <Sleepie> ouch..
11:06:12  <Alberth> yeah, not a good idea
11:07:42  * FLHerne considers triangle-overlapping tiles
11:07:52  <FLHerne> Worthwhile?
11:08:26  <Alberth> I never make eye-candy, so don't ask me :)
11:08:33  <Sleepie> would look more pleasing imho
11:09:08  <FLHerne> Ok. Should be easy to draw. Was short of object ideas anyway :P
11:09:17  * FLHerne goes out to walk the rat
11:09:29  <FLHerne> See you later :-)
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11:33:27  <LordAro> wait, what?
11:41:06  * Alberth waits
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11:51:16  <FLHerne> Back :-)
11:53:51  <FLHerne> It's finally stopped raining :D
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11:59:00  <Alberth> wb :)
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11:59:29  <Alberth> FLHerne:  what I think it needs are stacks of things and stuff. The docks are way too clean
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12:00:26  <FLHerne> Alberth: That's only because the train just left :P
12:01:27  <Alberth> it did not even leave empty pallets?
12:02:38  <FLHerne> Tell andythenorth to make it do that, then...?
12:03:08  <Alberth> I remembered someone had run out of objects to draw :p
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12:04:18  <FLHerne> But objects can't measure cargo waiting at all, that's a station kind of thing
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12:04:51  <Alberth> some stacks are part of the docks :p
12:05:08  <FLHerne> That's a dock thing, then :P
12:05:20  <Alberth> oh, fishing nets can be added too
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12:09:38  <Sleepie> and I would also overbuild the left shores in the habour
12:11:50  <FLHerne> Still a dock thing. I'm just using/modifying/drawing variations of various sprites from CHIPS & FIRS and recoding them as objects
12:12:07  <FLHerne> Sleepie Exactly for that reason :P
12:12:37  <FLHerne> CHIPS can't do that, that's why I need to finish doing the objects :P
12:12:50  <Alberth> 'various sprites' don't have cargo lying around?
12:12:58  <Sleepie> cool
12:14:21  <FLHerne> Alberth: They do. andythenorth has them for 'amount of cargo waiting' in CHIPS
12:14:49  <FLHerne> That picture demonstrates the need for NewObjects, not their use :P
12:15:50  <Sleepie> yep the only downside is that the list of newgrfs loaded gets longer and longer until you reach the current limit
12:16:34  <Sleepie> which afaik cannot be lifted, because it would break multiplayer
12:17:20  <FLHerne> Chill's PP has a much higher limit, and doesn't break multiplayer :P
12:17:54  <Sleepie> I don't know never played CPP
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12:18:54  <frosch123> FLHerne: ofc it does
12:19:27  <FLHerne> frosch123: How so?
12:19:46  <frosch123> it will only transmit the first part of the grfs and drop the other ones
12:19:54  <frosch123> so, once you use too many grfs, multiplayer will fail
12:20:12  <Sleepie> because it only uses one packet for it iirc
12:20:33  <frosch123> more specifically a udp packet
12:20:41  <Sleepie> yep
12:20:53  <FLHerne> In that case, add separate limits for single-player games and servers? :P
12:20:54  <frosch123> though maybe it only breaks the server list
12:21:09  <Sleepie> so question is can this be changed "easyly"
12:21:34  <Sleepie> or what FLHerne  said
12:21:35  <Alberth> FLHerne: you don't want to have different game files for SP and MP, I think
12:21:49  <Sleepie> fair enough Alberth
12:21:58  <frosch123> Sleepie: experience tells that everyone who reaches the newgrf limit does not know what he is doing with them
12:22:07  <frosch123> it's like the mapsize limit
12:22:19  <frosch123> there are some people requesting 16kx16k maps
12:22:25  <frosch123> while 2kx2k is already utterly useless
12:22:47  <FLHerne> Alberth: Keep the files identical, but forbid loading ones with >x NewGrfs on a server
12:23:13  <Alberth> FLHerne: how? a savegame contains references to all loaded newgrfs
12:23:13  <FLHerne> frosch123: I hit the limit, and I know what I'm doing with them :P
12:23:31  <Sleepie> frosch123: personally I think that was true in the past, but now there are a lot of little grfs popping up
12:23:58  <Alberth> FLHerne: as said, I don't think you want some magically unloadable files just because you use them in a different context
12:24:31  <Sleepie> and even if they are just eyecandy you can reach the limit quite fast without loading everything available
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12:25:25  <FLHerne> Alberth: Add a parameter for 'max SP NewGRFs', at MP limit by default?
12:25:41  <frosch123> anyway, noone stepped up to even fix fs#5158
12:25:47  <FLHerne> Then it wouldn't confuse people, especially with these fancy description strings :P
12:26:00  <FLHerne> @fs 5158
12:26:00  <DorpsGek> FLHerne:
12:26:20  <Alberth> FLHerne: x.sav by itself does not show whether it is loadable in MP
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12:27:27  <FLHerne> Alberth: It doesn't show that it needs obsure_unavailable_thingum_v283.grf either :P
12:27:28  <Alberth> But the problem is better solved by a fundamental fix than this hacking into different types of save games
12:28:10  <Alberth> FLHerne: yeah, it's bad, I'd like to fix that too, let's throw away newgrfs
12:28:26  <Alberth> which by the way solves your loading problem nicely too
12:28:36  <frosch123> just restrict loading of newgrfs to a single one
12:28:44  <Alberth> the baseset :D
12:28:52  <frosch123> one baseset, one newgrf, one gs, one ai
12:29:04  <FLHerne> Alberth: Removes the developers' excuse of 'that can be done in a convoluted way by NewGRFs' though :P
12:29:06  <Sleepie> then the baseset must be extended massively :P
12:30:10  <Sleepie> for it would help if many of the little grfs could be combined just to a few ones
12:30:27  <Sleepie> +now
12:31:22  <Alberth> it probably gets terribly complicated, much more than fixing the limit would be my guess
12:32:15  <Sleepie> yeah probably, also all people involved must be willing to work together on a bigger thing and so on
12:33:13  <Sleepie> Alberth: what do you think how complicated the change in the network code would be?
12:33:36  <Alberth> I don't know at all
12:34:24  <Alberth> You'd have to allow for receiving several UDP packets, with just some of the newgrfs. You can have some missing, and receive some double
12:35:13  <Alberth> you need a mechanism to know how many to expect, and a check whether you got all
12:35:58  <Sleepie> ok so there should be already things that work that way
12:36:34  <Alberth> I don't even know why it uses UDP instead of TCP
12:36:48  <Sleepie> maybe I should look myself at the network code
12:36:48  <Alberth> which would seem easier to me at first sight
12:37:16  <Sleepie> maybe because it works better with weaker connections
12:37:47  <Alberth> how would that be?
12:37:51  <frosch123> Alberth: it's about queryiing all servers without authentication
12:38:32  <Alberth> ah, ok, that explains using UDP :)
12:39:27  <Alberth> Sleepie: so a bunch of UDP packets gives nice options for a DOS attack
12:40:17  <Sleepie> yep
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12:45:48  <Rubidium> actually, I think a ChillPP MP server with too many NewGRFs will hit an assert, or if it doesn't, never advertise properly
12:47:12  <Rubidium> Alberth: the limit is fixed ;)
12:48:01  <Rubidium> and with the nature of UDP, receiving multiple packets from another party without packet loss is significantly less likely
12:48:03  <Alberth> I was not going to unfix it ;)
12:48:36  * FLHerne wanders off
12:48:44  <FLHerne> Stuff to do :P
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12:49:03  <Rubidium> and it uses UDP because a certain operating system has/had a limit of connections that could be made with a single binary (in the non-server version)
12:49:38  <Rubidium> which meant that a server wouldn't be visible anymore after a few hours
12:49:55  <Rubidium> but there is a relatively easy way to solve the whole issue. Just increase the MTU of the internet
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12:55:20  <frosch123> Rubidium: submit a patch to the internet authority
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13:30:35  <Sleepie> tea time see you later
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13:52:22  <Wolf01> me too
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14:09:51  <andythenorth> can we script map gen?
14:14:06  <Alberth> would that give anything more sane results?
14:15:11  <andythenorth> tie it to GS
14:15:13  <andythenorth> as a dep
14:15:22  <andythenorth> 'generate 2 large cities for this GS'
14:15:27  <andythenorth> etc
14:31:00  <Eddi|zuHause> no, but you should be able to found towns afterwards if there are not enough
14:32:31  <andythenorth> meh
14:32:35  <andythenorth> can I remove towns as well? :P
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14:46:56  <MNIM> sadly, not without the scenario editor
14:54:00  <andythenorth> quiet here
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14:57:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: your better bet is to just make a scenario for such a special case
14:58:29  <andythenorth> I made a scenario once
14:58:30  <andythenorth> never again
14:58:47  <andythenorth> the most boring thing....ever
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14:59:23  <Alberth> at least it is done faster than coding a baseset :p
15:00:46  <andythenorth> coding is interesting
15:01:01  <andythenorth> hmm
15:01:08  <andythenorth> I might have a few hours of coding time this weekened
15:01:25  * andythenorth considers: nml FISH, or start a GS project?
15:01:35  <Alberth> you know a base set is just real srpites, right? :)
15:01:44  <Alberth> *sprites
15:01:49  <andythenorth> I have edited opengfx yes ;)
15:01:55  <andythenorth> GS, I need a buddy
15:02:00  <andythenorth> FISH less so :P
15:02:29  <andythenorth> I have 3 or 4 GS ideas
15:03:32  <Alberth> that's too much for a few hours coding
15:03:54  <andythenorth> I was only proposing to do one of them :P
15:04:19  <Alberth> btw, I just read a page at the Django site, looks interesting to try one time
15:04:36  <andythenorth> Bananasaasas
15:04:53  <planetmaker> bananasssssss. my preciousssss
15:12:30  <andythenorth> I have GS ideas like:
15:13:02  <andythenorth> - metro: build a city network capable of transporting x passengers per year
15:13:36  <andythenorth> - transcontinental: build west from a large east coast city to the other coast (large empty-ish map needed)
15:14:52  <andythenorth> - air mogul: become the biggest airline on the map by 1950 (starts before planes are are available, so have to begin with trains etc)
15:16:21  <Alberth> hmm, we could have lots of small islands that you have to bridge. Then you cannot have bridges over tracks.
15:17:22  <Alberth> how is "transcontinental" interesting, just a drag/drop to the other side is enough, isn't it?
15:17:35  <andythenorth> very tight time limit
15:17:46  <Alberth> build while paused :p
15:17:50  <andythenorth> start with only one large city in the east, few industries
15:18:06  <andythenorth> could limit amount of rail allowed to be built
15:18:20  <Alberth> could be interesting if there is a large gap in between where you cannot put much tracks
15:18:31  <andythenorth> there are quite a few transcontinental scenarios in railroad tycoon, they're fun
15:18:52  <andythenorth> I am most interested in scenarios that take 1-3 hours to play
15:19:33  * andythenorth ponders some more
15:21:45  <Alberth> afk for dinner
15:22:03  * andythenorth should learn what GS can do, instead of guessing :P
15:22:34  <Alberth>
15:22:47  <andythenorth> thanks
15:23:10  * andythenorth thinks 'less' might be the way to go
15:23:17  <andythenorth> the vehicle sets and industry sets have become huge
15:23:24  <andythenorth> but bigger != more fun
15:23:51  <andythenorth> none of the big newgrf games I've played have been as much fun as the first games I played with vanilla openttd
15:24:10  <andythenorth> but...bigger = more scope for a GS that only uses parts of stuff
15:37:04  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24427 /trunk/config.lib: -Change: allow passing C(XX)- and LDFLAGS to the compilation of helper binaries such as depend, strgen and settingsgen
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16:38:17  * andythenorth tries to find docs for nml BITMASK()
16:38:27  <andythenorth> maybe I read the source
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16:39:34  <Alberth>
16:39:44  <Alberth> but it's not that clear :)
16:40:23  <andythenorth> trying to figure out bitmask(CC_LIQUID)
16:40:25  <Alberth> bitmask(0, 4, 5) == 0011 0001
16:40:35  <andythenorth> ok
16:40:43  <andythenorth> so bitmask(CC_LIQUID) sets the liquid bit
16:40:46  <Alberth> ie 1 << CC_LIQUID  this
16:40:47  <andythenorth> fine
16:40:49  <Alberth> *thus
16:41:04  <andythenorth> in some limited cases, nfo is much easier :P
16:41:08  <andythenorth> no abstraction to deal with
16:41:36  <andythenorth> putting convenience around the bitmask makes it harder to remember / deduce what the bitmask is doing
16:41:38  <Alberth> but you have to encode to 0x31 :)
16:42:05  <Alberth> iirc nml also has <<, so use that instead
16:42:05  <andythenorth> so if I wanted to check a cargo had classe liquid, and only liquid?
16:42:24  <andythenorth> all other bits must be clear
16:43:02  <Alberth> value == bitmask(CC_LIQUID)
16:43:23  <Alberth> assuming 'value' is only cargo classes
16:43:57  <andythenorth> actually nvm
16:43:57  <andythenorth> theoretical question atm
16:44:20  <Alberth> ie you want exactly the value with that one bit
16:46:03  <andythenorth> hmm
16:46:13  <andythenorth> that explains why some cargos are refitting to tanker
16:48:27  <andythenorth> so in nfo I would 'just' mask the other bits out and check for liquid bit
16:48:27  <andythenorth> I need to do the same in nml
16:48:27  <andythenorth> the issue is vehicles that should be tanker if liquid class is present
16:48:27  <andythenorth> not iff liquid is the only class
16:50:27  <andythenorth> typo above * some cargos _aren't_ refitting to tanker :P
16:50:30  <Alberth> then you want    (vaue and bitmask(CC_LIQUID)) != 0    , ie throw away all bits not in the bitmask, and then you should still have some bits left
16:51:06  <andythenorth> perhaps I need multiple switches in that case
16:51:10  <Alberth> and since you started with 1 bit, 'some bits left' is also 1 bit :)
16:51:36  <michi_cc> And 'value & bitmask(a,b) == bitmask(a,b)' just in case you want to test if two bits are set at the same time.
16:53:57  <Alberth> the 'and' operation forces all other bits to 0 (ie all bits that you mask away), so you can predict what to compare against
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17:21:44  <andythenorth> so masking in nfo is easy
17:21:50  <andythenorth> but I am baffled by how to do this in nml
17:22:05  <andythenorth> presumably in the switch somewhere
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17:30:03  <michi_cc> andythenorth: By literally writing a &
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17:30:34  <andythenorth> cargo_classes_in_consist & some_value ?
17:30:50  <michi_cc> Yes. And that some value is your bitmask.
17:31:29  * andythenorth tests
17:32:29  <andythenorth> hmm
17:32:55  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24428 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt korean.txt):
17:32:55  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:32:55  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 26 changes by telk5093
17:32:55  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 6 changes by Tucalipe
17:33:45  * andythenorth seeks the & operator in nml
17:34:08  <planetmaker> look for "&"
17:34:42  <planetmaker> value = variable & 0x00F0
17:35:04  <andythenorth> how do I create an expression?
17:35:11  <andythenorth> docs tell me only the operators
17:35:21  <andythenorth> I have to wrap it in parentheses?
17:35:51  <Alberth> the normal operator expression priorities apply
17:36:02  <Alberth> ie 1 + 2 * 3 == 1 + (2 * 3)
17:36:14  <andythenorth> using && gets me an nml error
17:36:24  <andythenorth> it expands it to an html entity
17:36:32  <planetmaker> && applies to boolean only
17:36:51  <planetmaker> that's your pre-processor which fails there then
17:37:01  <andythenorth> o/c
17:37:15  <Alberth> hi planetmaker :)
17:37:37  <planetmaker> salut Alberth
17:38:49  <Alberth> as far as I can see, there seem to be mostly terrain and track sprites left, and stations
17:40:51  * andythenorth wonders wtf the templater is escaping non-templated things
17:45:33  <andythenorth> hmm
17:45:37  <andythenorth> this is a showstopper :P
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18:03:54  <andythenorth> ho ho
18:04:01  <andythenorth> ugly, but...meh :P
18:04:39  <andythenorth> grf_nml.write('&&'.join(master_template(vehicles=vehicles, repo_vars=repo_vars).split('$AND')))
18:06:58  <andythenorth> so what range is needed to check for 'true' with  'cargo_classes_in_consist && bitmask(CC_LIQUID)'
18:06:59  <andythenorth> ?
18:08:22  <andythenorth> I have tried 0, 1 and 255 as values
18:08:40  <Rubidium> doesn't that yield true whenever cargo_classes_in_consist is not 0?
18:09:12  <Rubidium> && != &
18:09:48  <andythenorth> yes, it does yield true
18:10:08  * andythenorth adjusts
18:13:36  <andythenorth> ok that works :)
18:13:36  <andythenorth> thanks
18:13:55  <TrueBrain> I hate weekends; they are so boring
18:15:48  <andythenorth> por quoi?
18:15:56  <TrueBrain> I am sorry, I speak no german
18:16:22  <Alberth> andy does not speak french, so that's a happy co-incidence :)
18:16:34  <andythenorth> bueno
18:17:33  <Eddi|zuHause> we should all speak esperanto like we're supposed to
18:18:02  <andythenorth> someone here probably does
18:18:31  <Eddi|zuHause> we used to have an esperanto translator
18:18:33  <andythenorth> is it madness that I have to use $AMPERSAND in my nml templates to get an & char?
18:18:46  <andythenorth> should I rip out the entire templating engine and start again?
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18:19:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you're probably just missing an escape character
18:20:05  <andythenorth> I tried all the ones listed
18:20:12  <andythenorth> I thought the same though
18:22:16  <andythenorth> this is ugly:
18:22:20  <andythenorth> I can't use string colours
18:22:21  <andythenorth> ideas?
18:22:52  <Eddi|zuHause> why not?
18:23:20  <andythenorth> vehicle info window
18:24:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't look bad
18:24:43  <FLHerne> That second one looks much better :-)
18:25:13  <andythenorth> I could use cyan
18:25:21  <andythenorth> which would hide the vehicle info window problem
18:25:33  <andythenorth> can i have a guarantee that vehicle info window text colour won't change?
18:25:40  *** Chris_Booth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:25:45  <FLHerne> Why is that a problem?
18:26:24  <Alberth> andythenorth: a tree-like list?
18:26:37  <FLHerne> Makes the 'in cabins' bit easier to ignore - which is fine since it's not relevant anyway :P
18:27:22  <andythenorth> it's wrong and ugly
18:27:27  <planetmaker> why do you need that guarantee?
18:27:45  <andythenorth> don't want to change the vehicle info window appearance unexpectedly
18:27:52  * andythenorth may be being too pedantic
18:28:37  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't see your problem...
18:28:59  * Alberth will ask permission for any vehicle window change
18:29:02  <andythenorth> the wrong colour sticks out like a sore thumb to me
18:29:12  <andythenorth> but seems I notice these things more than average
18:29:30  <Alberth> that's what we hired you for :)
18:30:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think grey works well
18:30:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the hyphen needs a better idea though
18:30:58  <Eddi|zuHause> or at least another space :)
18:32:27  <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's not 'the wrong colour', it's 'a useful idea to make unneeded information less obtrusive' :P
18:37:21  <andythenorth> it's more intrusive
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18:37:42  <andythenorth> making it a unique colour brings it forward as you try and parse the gestalt
18:37:45  * andythenorth use jargon :P
18:37:58  <andythenorth> unique colour = higher significance in cognition
18:38:02  <FLHerne> andythenorth: It isn't, it blends into the grey background nicely. Less contrast
18:38:51  *** masch [] has joined #openttd
18:38:53  <masch> hi
18:39:10  <FLHerne> The break in colour makes it easier to parse, because it marks the end of the bit I care about
18:39:27  <masch> is there a description of the algorithm thats used for map generation?
18:39:41  <FLHerne> Otherwise the information I needed would be in the middle of the string
18:39:48  <Rubidium> masch: what part of map generation?
18:39:55  <masch> Rubidium: heightmap
18:40:32  <Rubidium> masch: there might be in tgp.cpp (source code); it has to do with Perlin noise
18:41:08  <masch> Rubidium: thanks, default libnoise perlin generates uncool maps that are impossible to display with minecraft
18:41:13  <masch> *openttd
18:41:23  <masch> WTF why did i say minecraft? my head..
18:42:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the geek version of a freudian slip :p
18:42:20  <TrueBrain> Minecraft also uses perlin noise
18:42:37  <Eddi|zuHause> perlin noise is very boring for maps
18:42:57  <TrueBrain> I think OpenTTD does an epic job, does it not? :)
18:42:59  <Eddi|zuHause> we need a tectonics map generator
18:43:37  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: plate tectonics?
18:43:38  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it has been improved by the overlay functions that form flat and hilly areas
18:43:38  <TrueBrain> really?
18:43:40  <TrueBrain> lolz
18:43:44  <Rubidium> too bad TrueBrain didn't finish his map generator that uses very realistic tectonics ;)
18:43:46  <andythenorth> 'improved'
18:43:51  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: hehe :D
18:43:52  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Not that epic :P
18:43:55  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: 3D perlin noise, yes :)
18:44:04  <andythenorth> if you want a decent map, first turn off 'variety distribution'
18:44:11  <masch> wow there is nice short introduction how perlin noise works. great
18:44:28  <andythenorth> actually....
18:44:28  <andythenorth> if you want a decent map, load a heightmap :P
18:44:36  <FLHerne> It needs better links with river generation :P
18:44:40  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: it is too bad there is no meta information which is correct, in regards of rivers and lakes :(
18:44:47  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: the "original" perlin noise makes very "uniform" hill-valley maps. really boring as you can never build a straight track on them
18:44:55  <FLHerne> At the moment, rivers make no sense whatsoever
18:45:02  <andythenorth> +0.
18:45:05  <andythenorth> eh?
18:45:07  <andythenorth> +0.5
18:45:10  * andythenorth learns to type
18:45:17  <andythenorth> rivers make sense as eye candy
18:45:20  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I guess it was a bit too noisy :P
18:45:22  <andythenorth> or things that you bulldoze
18:45:45  <FLHerne> They should have valleys, to make it easier to bridge them
18:46:03  <FLHerne> It looks silly to have one-tile-long hump bridges :P
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18:46:09  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: we will await your patch ;)
18:46:41  <Rubidium> FLHerne: there are barely any rivers around here where you do not need to gain some elevation to cross it
18:46:54  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: no, they should have "flat" bridges (which makes them unpassable by ships)
18:47:03  <andythenorth> +1
18:47:15  <andythenorth> what?
18:47:17  <andythenorth> -1
18:47:18  <andythenorth> :P
18:47:26  <TrueBrain> nice going andythenorth :P
18:47:39  <andythenorth> I thought it was a nice idea
18:47:42  <andythenorth> very realistic
18:47:48  <andythenorth> then I remembered it will break gameplay :P
18:47:51  <FLHerne> Statemachine-controlled swing bridges? :D
18:47:56  <andythenorth> new ship prop: can pass under bridges
18:48:07  <TrueBrain> lol
18:48:18  <Rubidium> new bridge prop: can open for ships that can't pass under bridges
18:48:23  <TrueBrain> would be weird: this ship cannot go under this bridge, but this ship can hide inside that other ship
18:48:23  <andythenorth> new ship cb: can pass under bridges; new var: height of bridge
18:48:49  <andythenorth> ships can load into ships? :o
18:48:55  <TrueBrain> hide
18:48:58  <TrueBrain> as in: no collision :)
18:49:13  <Alberth> TrueBrain: nice implementation of multiple cargo bays :p
18:49:54  * andythenorth chooses cyan
18:49:55  <FLHerne> Minimum bridge heights for ships might actually be a good idea?
18:50:00  <andythenorth> so what to do about the '-' char?
18:50:11  <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, that will be a nuisance :-(
18:50:11  <TrueBrain> eat it
18:50:23  * andythenorth eats it
18:50:24  <andythenorth> better
18:50:37  <TrueBrain> I know right
18:50:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: traditionally cargo subtypes are put in parentheses
18:51:04  <andythenorth> there we go, done
18:51:05  <andythenorth>
18:51:14  <andythenorth> I tried parentheses, thought it looked silly
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18:51:17  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but if you use a hyphen, it must have spaces on both sides
18:51:17  <andythenorth> but point taken
18:51:24  <andythenorth> it did
18:51:28  <FLHerne> When I look at that window, I want to see the cargo and the capacity. I don't care about the 'fluff' :P
18:51:34  <andythenorth> but the font might not have rendered it very evenly
18:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that looks silly
18:51:57  <andythenorth> I'm adding parentheses back in
18:52:03  <FLHerne> Like that, it's difficult to parse either the subtype or the cargo, because both are in the same sentence and the same colour :-(
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18:52:27  <andythenorth>
18:52:29  <andythenorth> done
18:52:57  <andythenorth> 'cargo holds' or just 'holds'
18:52:58  <andythenorth> ?
18:53:20  <andythenorth> 'cargo hold' is tautology?
18:53:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't know what a "hold" is
18:53:43  <andythenorth> alternative suggestions?
18:54:00  <andythenorth> 'dry cargo' ?
18:54:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and i still like the grey better
18:54:20  <V453000> piece goods or something similar?
18:54:38  <andythenorth> has to be nothing that is a cargo class name
18:55:34  <andythenorth> brb, food
18:55:35  <V453000> then piece something :>.
18:55:36  <Hirundo> I agree with eddi that grey looked better, it's less obtrusive
19:05:38  <planetmaker> I think 'cargo hold' is a good description
19:05:58  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: cargo hold = Frachtraum (somewhat)
19:08:03  <__ln__> i wouldn't have known what 'hold' is either, but is that a reason not to use the most appropriate english words?
19:09:36  <Alberth> people may even learn a word or two English from playing openttd :)
19:10:22  <Sleepie> I also didn't know it till now, but think its the best choose
19:10:36  <Sleepie> choice*
19:12:05  <Sleepie> Alberth: or maybe not, because the translators are too fast
19:12:12  <__ln__> if "we" begin to choose "easier" words that are more suitable for e.g. non-native speakers, then it's Simple English by definition, isn't it.
19:12:57  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes. i know that. but i meant just "hold" (without further context) wouldn't have a meaning to me
19:13:16  <planetmaker> ah. Yes. I agree.
19:13:21  <planetmaker> I misunderstood you
19:13:27  <Alberth> Sleepie: play without translation, I find wording in English better than the translation
19:14:56  <Alberth> good night
19:15:17  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I still preferred grey :P
19:15:34  *** Alberth [] has left #openttd []
19:15:39  <FLHerne> Also, (holds) on its own would be confusing, I think
19:16:41  * andythenorth considers alternatives
19:16:49  <andythenorth> like '(refitted to tanker)'
19:17:02  <andythenorth> '(refitted to general cargo vessel)'
19:17:11  <andythenorth> '(refitted to passenger cabins)'
19:17:16  *** fjb [~frank@] has joined #openttd
19:17:26  <fjb> Moin.
19:17:28  <FLHerne> That would be long and cumbersome :P
19:17:38  <FLHerne> fjb: Evening :P
19:17:48  <andythenorth> might help player understand autorefit behaviour though
19:18:06  <Sleepie> make a pollß
19:18:13  <Sleepie> ?
19:18:32  * Sleepie checks his shift key
19:22:59  <andythenorth> poll options are?
19:25:19  <Sleepie> hmm ok maybe a poll isn't the best idea (maybe only for other colors), than maybe just ask for alternative in the forum
19:25:53  <Sleepie> based on the screenshot above
19:26:24  <andythenorth> forum rarely produces better suggestions than this channel ;)
19:26:28  <andythenorth> and more noise there
19:27:29  * andythenorth ships what he has so far
19:27:40  <andythenorth> so...cargoes that travel by tanker:
19:27:43  <andythenorth> - alcohol?
19:27:48  <andythenorth> - milk?
19:28:16  <Sleepie> wouldn't alcohol be in bottles
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19:28:30  <andythenorth> this is my question ;)
19:28:47  <FLHerne> Both could. Depends on size of vessel, type of alcohol
19:29:06  <FLHerne> I can't imagine a supertanker full of milk :P
19:29:10  <Sleepie> true but which is more common
19:29:16  <andythenorth> small ships don't refit to tanker anyway, so moot point ;)
19:29:23  <FLHerne> But a tanker barge is a possibility
19:29:29  <andythenorth> yes
19:29:42  <andythenorth> point
19:30:09  <FLHerne> Industrial alcohol might be tankered, pehaps in large quantities
19:30:22  <FLHerne> Wine/beer probably not?
19:30:25  <andythenorth> but not to hotels and shops...?
19:31:57  <FLHerne> This is supposedly a wine tanker:
19:32:13  <planetmaker> *hicks*
19:32:39  <Sleepie> with one/several big tanks?
19:33:04  <FLHerne> Apparently
19:33:19  <andythenorth> yes there are wine tankers
19:33:25  <andythenorth> also fruit juice tankers
19:34:37  <FLHerne> Sorry, Google Images confused. That one's orange juice. This one's wine:
19:35:31  <Sleepie> well not much different, at least the exist ;)
19:36:04  * andythenorth makes milk and alcohol use cargo holds, not tankers
19:36:17  *** M1zera [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:36:43  <Sleepie> tankers would only make sense if delivered to other industry and not a town imho
19:36:49  <andythenorth> +1
19:37:25  <FLHerne> Makes sense
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19:37:30  <Sleepie> next one
19:39:21  * andythenorth ponders
19:39:36  <TrueBrain> be careful with that
19:39:41  <andythenorth> simpler if it only refits to tanker for cargos that have only liquid class
19:39:48  <andythenorth> less special case code
19:42:15  <andythenorth> if anyone adds a liquid cargo with extra classes set, they won't get tankers
19:42:18  <andythenorth> [shrug]
19:43:47  * andythenorth considers removing subtype strings entirely
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19:47:49  <andythenorth> that's better :)
19:50:30  <Sleepie> future proof ;)
19:51:49  <FLHerne> andythenorth: What about autorefitting?
19:52:11  <FLHerne> Subtypes without description strings would be confusing
19:54:10  <andythenorth> the subtype string is only there to help players understand autorefit rules
19:54:15  <andythenorth> it doesn't have any other use
19:55:40  <FLHerne> But in its absense, the players wouldn't understand the autorefit rules :P
19:55:53  <FLHerne> s/absense/absence/
19:56:02  <andythenorth> k
19:56:05  <andythenorth> case made then
19:56:30  <andythenorth> hmm
19:56:45  <andythenorth> if (indirection > 2) { ABORT ABORT ABORT }
19:57:03  <andythenorth> :P
19:58:00  <andythenorth> meh
19:59:01  <FLHerne> 2.9 tonnes/second a stupid rate of fire for a Gatling gun?
19:59:15  * FLHerne looks up A-10s :o
20:04:45  <andythenorth> meh
20:04:51  * andythenorth adds more indirection after all
20:05:13  <FLHerne> What are you indirecting?
20:05:26  <andythenorth> nml templates
20:05:33  <andythenorth> this makes no sense to me:
20:05:34  <andythenorth> "0 .. 16377 as refit cost. Add CB_RESULT_AUTOREFIT if you want to allow autorefit."
20:07:24  <andythenorth> how do I add a cb result?
20:08:21  <fjb> That looks like a constant expression to me.
20:09:25  <fjb> E.g.: 295 + CB_RESULT_AUTOREFIT
20:09:52  * andythenorth tests
20:10:58  <andythenorth> hmm
20:11:06  <andythenorth> seems that setting a cost automatically allows autorefit
20:11:55  <andythenorth> ach
20:11:56  <Sleepie> so also cost zero works?
20:12:16  <andythenorth> seems that setting ROADVEH_FLAG_AUTOREFIT for ship misc_flags works :P
20:15:32  <andythenorth> there's no extra_callback_info1 for refit_cost
20:15:41  <andythenorth> how do I check the type being refitted to?
20:16:31  *** namad7 [] has joined #openttd
20:16:33  <andythenorth> is var 10 not implemented for nml?
20:20:54  <andythenorth> is there a way to check vars directly in nml?
20:22:45  <planetmaker> var 10 is implemented. extra_callback_info1 (or 2)
20:23:08  <andythenorth> did you look in src for that?
20:23:14  * andythenorth was about to try that
20:23:43  <andythenorth> hmm
20:23:54  <andythenorth> just gets me the mapping to the cb number
20:24:41  *** Chris_Booth [] has joined #openttd
20:24:46  <planetmaker>
20:25:20  <andythenorth> k thanks
20:25:39  <planetmaker> but not sure it'll help. There's a subtype variable iirc
20:26:30  <andythenorth> nah, the refit_cost should have what I need
20:26:37  <andythenorth> nfo spec is explicit about it
20:26:43  <planetmaker> cargo_subtype
20:26:51  <planetmaker> is a variable
20:27:12  <andythenorth> in this case I need to bitmask the classes
20:27:22  <andythenorth> but fortunately I know now how nml does that
20:27:23  <andythenorth> :)
20:27:38  <andythenorth> meanwhile: bridge
20:28:46  <Sleepie> ^nice one
20:32:11  <andythenorth> so
20:32:11  <andythenorth> how / why does autorefit work at all?
20:32:11  <andythenorth> I don't see how it can guarantee deterministic refits for some orders if the previous orders are indeterministic
20:32:11  <andythenorth> i.e. order 1: refit available cargo
20:32:11  <andythenorth> order 2: refit [specific cargo]
20:32:11  <andythenorth> where [specific cargo] may or may not be permitted by the vehicle newgrf
20:32:11  <andythenorth> why doesn't this result in a lot of broken routes?
20:34:53  <planetmaker> andythenorth: available = cargo with biggest amount waiting
20:35:04  <planetmaker> refit to XY = refit to XY
20:35:09  <planetmaker> so you have both options
20:35:12  <planetmaker> in the orders menu
20:35:31  <andythenorth> and if available cargo = AB for order 1...
20:35:42  <andythenorth> but for order 2 grf does not permit AB -> XY ?
20:35:49  <planetmaker> hm?
20:35:50  <andythenorth> what does the vehicle do?  Stuck?
20:35:56  <planetmaker> The newgrf decides which refit is feasible
20:36:23  <andythenorth> is there error handling for the "can't refit" case?
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20:43:50  <andythenorth> so for refit_cost, var 10 is in format ccccwwtt
20:44:01  <andythenorth> how do I get the first word out in nml?
20:44:11  <andythenorth> and mask it with 0s?
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20:46:00  <masch> hey guys. can i have some comments on this: ?
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20:53:12  <Sleepie> masch: nice, webgl?
20:55:31  <planetmaker> andythenorth: like usual: (var & 0xFFFF0000) >> 16
20:56:18  <planetmaker> will give you the high word of that dword
20:56:31  <planetmaker> you likely can leave out the masking even.
20:56:50  <andythenorth> ta
20:57:06  * andythenorth tries >> 16
20:58:06  <andythenorth> meh
20:58:11  <andythenorth> angle brackets are escaped :P
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21:11:40  <andythenorth> what's wrong with this as a switch result?
21:11:40  <andythenorth>     return 0 + CB_RESULT_AUTOREFIT;
21:11:40  <andythenorth> doesn't bloody work :P
21:15:40  * andythenorth decides bed is nice
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21:16:44  <andythenorth> oh ffs
21:17:48  <andythenorth> "Bit 14: If set, the refit is allowed as an auto-refit as long as bit 4 of the miscellaneous flags is set as well."
21:17:48  <andythenorth> always read the nfo spec
21:17:48  <andythenorth> golden rule of nml coding :P
21:17:48  * andythenorth should edit the wiki
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21:21:00  <andythenorth> hmm
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22:33:15  <masch> Sleepie: canvas
22:33:49  <Terkhen> good night
22:35:16  <planetmaker> masch: I notice the funny light direction. It should come from around 4:30pm. Not from 2pm.
22:36:02  <masch> planetmaker: O.o thats noticeable?  The tiles are prerendered with blendern. Maybe i should fix that ..
22:36:15  <planetmaker> look at slope brightness
22:36:23  <masch> planetmaker:
22:36:38  <masch> the last row is "buggy" :-/ need to be fixed
22:36:52  <planetmaker> it's later than 1:30 and earlier than 3:00
22:37:09  <planetmaker> it should be... around 4:30
22:38:12  <masch> okay.. thanks for that. I'll try to fix that blender file. That whole thing is for my bachlor thesis :-/
22:39:00  <planetmaker> there might be already light settings around for blender. Maybe in OpenGFX+Trains (though to me that seems directly 3pm) and in zBase maybe another. I need to look
22:39:37  <planetmaker> and
22:40:08  <Wolf01> 'night all
22:40:13  <planetmaker> but I like the terrain for a change. Could make nice desert or so
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22:40:24  <planetmaker> what's your goal, masch?
22:40:38  <masch> planetmaker: "openttd in browser & nodejs"
22:41:00  <masch> its project work & bachlor thesis so i can split it in two big parts
22:41:11  <masch> client & server
22:41:41  <planetmaker> o_O That's a BIG project
22:41:51  <masch> the "real" goal is to evaluate modern web technologies
22:42:06  <masch> performance, support in browsers, "what is possible"
22:42:14  <TrueBrain> then why nodejs? :)
22:42:15  <planetmaker> you're the guy from play-ttd ?
22:42:22  <masch> TrueBrain: server :P
22:42:25  <TrueBrain> the fact that is uses javascript, doesn't make it a web technoligy ;)
22:42:30  <masch> planetmaker:  play-ttd? whats that?
22:42:37  <planetmaker> openttd in the browser.
22:42:48  <planetmaker>
22:43:05  <masch> meeeh
22:43:09  <masch> thats a emscript version
22:43:11  <masch> booooring
22:43:15  <masch> xD
22:43:33  <planetmaker> :-)
22:43:36  <TrueBrain> making its network to work would be a nice goal ;)
22:44:06  <masch> TrueBrain: thats the plan
22:44:15  <TrueBrain> I mean, with emscript
22:44:20  <masch> okay :D
22:44:21  <TrueBrain> much more useful (to us) :P
22:44:30  <Eddi|zuHause> what's worse with an automatic conversion via emscript, that's not with automatically converting to your machine language with gcc (or similar)?
22:44:54  <masch> Eddi|zuHause: i dont say that emscript is bad
22:45:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you said "meeeh"
22:45:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and i didn't say "bad" either
22:45:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i said "worse"
22:46:00  <Eddi|zuHause> (referring to your "boring")
22:46:44  <masch> Eddi|zuHause: the difference between "using emscript" and "reimplementing everything" is that you learn a lot more about how things work and can implement things diffently
22:47:01  <TrueBrain> masch: just realise that "reimplementing everything" will take you several months if not years
22:47:04  <TrueBrain> OpenTTD is HUGE
22:47:15  <planetmaker> 300k+ lines
22:47:20  <masch> TrueBrain: yes. My plan isnt "reimplementing everthing"
22:47:31  <TrueBrain> now you are just confusing us :D
22:47:34  <masch> my plan is "lets see how much i can get to work"
22:47:43  <masch> the target is not to have a complete game
22:47:43  <TrueBrain> so isn't emscript a better starting point?
22:47:48  <TrueBrain> as it already does 90%? :)
22:48:05  <TrueBrain> not wanting to spoil your fun etc, but I am just trying to get the most out of it of which OpenTTD benefits :)
22:48:39  <masch> "The way is the goal."
22:48:57  <TrueBrain> the way of getting network to work in a browser is also a goal :D
22:49:03  <planetmaker> but not all ways equally interesting :-)
22:49:03  <Eddi|zuHause> you did not even sketch a way...
22:49:07  <masch> TrueBrain: i dont do this to contribute to OpenTTD, sry :D
22:49:25  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: btw, 200k lines, sry :)
22:49:26  <Eddi|zuHause> you just throw in a few buzz words
22:49:40  <TrueBrain> cpp:         184232 (90.52%)
22:49:41  <TrueBrain> ansic:        17135 (8.42%)
22:49:43  <TrueBrain> sh:            1485 (0.73%)
22:49:44  <TrueBrain> awk:            682 (0.34%)
22:49:47  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: well, not bad for 12 months memory or so ;-)
22:49:52  <masch> Eddi|zuHause: i was just asking for comments. I just started work on this..
22:50:04  <TrueBrain> Development Effort Estimate, Person-Years (Person-Months) = 53.10 (637.21)
22:50:43  <Eddi|zuHause> masch: see... it would take you 53 years to reimplement openttd
22:50:56  <masch> it might take me over 100 years
22:51:06  <masch> but as i told you already, thats not what i want
22:51:10  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: ohloh gives me 225k LOC, 65k comments. Which is pretty close to 300k :-)
22:51:11  <TrueBrain> haha, you plan to become N+100 years old, and still code? :D
22:51:13  <TrueBrain> kewl :) :D
22:51:25  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: ohloh seems wrong ...
22:51:29  <planetmaker> and 46k blank
22:51:30  <TrueBrain> I used latest trunk ..
22:52:19  <TrueBrain> which is rather weird, as I don't see how counting lines can differ that much :P
22:52:24  <TrueBrain> +/- 10k, sure
22:52:28  <TrueBrain> but +/- 30% ...
22:52:31  * NGC3982 notices that measuring emf fields with an android phone was serious business.
22:52:50  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: a cat */* | wc -l gives me 290k
22:53:06  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you get 30% more blank lines when you count \n and \r separately :)
22:53:18  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: pff, I get 300k then
22:53:27  <planetmaker> ;-)
22:53:45  <masch> there are a lot of things i'm doing differently by implementing them on my own. For example the "window system". The emscript version just draws anything in one big canvas
22:53:52  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: but when done right, that results more in the order of 600k
22:54:02  <planetmaker> yes
22:54:12  <planetmaker> I know that all subs are excluded there
22:54:28  <masch> For "UI" i'm using html elements & css. That should - in my hopes - improve performance
22:54:33  <TrueBrain> weird, that sloccount and ohloh give such a different value
22:54:34  <Eddi|zuHause> masch: that's what openttd does internally.
22:54:35  <TrueBrain> owh well
22:54:37  <TrueBrain> who cares .. a lot of lines :D
22:54:41  <masch> Eddi|zuHause: i know
22:55:06  <Eddi|zuHause> masch: you have to dig waaaay deeper into openttd core to change that
22:55:08  <masch> But as i try to tell you: i dont try to copy OpenTTDs code
22:55:33  <masch> i try to build a game that looks like TTD and works like TTD
22:55:38  <masch> in the browser
22:55:51  <masch> thats why i dont use emscript
22:56:04  <masch> if i want to copy openttd, i would use emscript
22:56:09  <masch> but thats not what i want
22:56:52  <masch> ohh and sry for my bad grammar. Its late & i'm not a navtive speaker
22:57:14  <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't want to reuse code, why be "like TTD" in the first place? TTD has so many shortcomings that you could easily avoid by designing a new game properly
22:57:16  <TrueBrain> please, never say those things ... it is one of the most annoying things to read every single time people post or talk
22:57:20  <TrueBrain> "sorry about my grammer"
22:57:31  <TrueBrain> if it would be bad, we would ask you every single time what the fuck you are saying :P
22:57:42  <TrueBrain> otherwise .. our humand minds can attach enough symbols together to make sense out of it :D
22:57:53  <masch> okay :D
22:58:07  <TrueBrain> the fact that you do want to apoligize says you have enoguh understanding of the language tbfh :P
22:58:24  <Eddi|zuHause> masch: nearly nobody here is a native speaker... and usually people who say "sorry for my english. i'm not a native speaker" are way better than the native speakers anyway
22:59:18  <planetmaker> I think no-one who spoke in this hour is a native speaker
23:00:02  <masch> okay.
23:00:08  <TrueBrain> and I am hungry
23:00:40  <masch> Eddi|zuHause: you ask why i want to build it "like TTD". Because i like TTD! I really love this game.
23:00:45  <planetmaker> masch: and, I don't think you have to re-invent the sprites. Many things become available in the zbase project I linked you to above
23:00:55  <planetmaker> under the terms of the gpl you may use them all
23:01:16  <planetmaker> ready-to-use blender files with ready-rendered sprites in 3 sizes
23:01:27  <planetmaker> and proper lightening :-P
23:01:40  <masch> planetmaker: yes, thanks. Thats what i looked for earlier. thanks a lot that will help me
23:01:51  <planetmaker> (but for a new game you should not care about openttd light direction anyway)
23:02:53  <masch> planetmaker: i'm still shocked that you can see the difference between 2:00 and 4:30 O.o
23:03:02  <TrueBrain> years of training :P
23:03:07  <TrueBrain> before he became a dev
23:03:09  <TrueBrain> we put him in a room
23:03:11  <TrueBrain> for hours at end
23:03:13  <TrueBrain> till he knew
23:03:14  <planetmaker> masch: I'm the maintainer of the base graphics set ;-)
23:03:15  <TrueBrain> it was horrible
23:03:33  <planetmaker> and yes, TrueBrain is totally right ;-)
23:03:45  <TrueBrain> I totally not make that up :D
23:04:12  <planetmaker> masch: I'm not the only one who notices, though. Just read a bit grpahics forum
23:04:26  <planetmaker> it's like a religion :-P
23:04:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i've been hearing this talk for years, and i still don't notice a difference between 2:00 and 4:30
23:04:40  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: brightness of slopes on terrain
23:04:41  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: maybe that is why you are not dev? :D
23:04:42  <TrueBrain> *troll*
23:05:01  <Eddi|zuHause> that must be it :p
23:05:32  <planetmaker> tbh, it was andy who convinced me :-P
23:05:41  <planetmaker> (with the light)
23:05:44  <Eddi|zuHause> and all these years i was thinking it's because i don't conctribute enough code :p
23:05:55  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: like planetmaker contributed code :P
23:05:57  <TrueBrain> MWHAHAHAHA
23:06:08  <planetmaker> meh
23:06:11  <masch> TrueBrain: to be hones, these are the first working tiles and i havend done that blender file. Some guy on reddit postet it and helped me to add some missing tiles. One of my next steps is to get a proper, nice way to render those images
23:06:27  <TrueBrain> s/TrueBrain/planetmaker/
23:06:29  <TrueBrain> I am guessing :P
23:06:36  * TrueBrain hugs planetmaker; it was just too easy :D
23:06:43  <planetmaker> I know :-)
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23:08:14  <Eddi|zuHause> masch: one of the big shortcomings of TTD is the fixed steepness of slopes. if you design a new (tile-based) game, then you might want to allow for more varied slopes
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23:09:06  <masch> Eddi|zuHause: thats the only thing me engine does properly right now!!111 I will never change that xD
23:10:06  <masch> Map generation: ~1hour : learn to use libnoise, generate a noisemap; ~2hours: smooth that noisemap to be a valid openttd map!
23:11:13  <Eddi|zuHause> if i could redesign the slopes, i would change the current 8px (z-level) slopes into steps of 4,8 and 12. tunnels can only be placed on 12 slopes, rails only on 4 slopes, roads on 4 and 8 slopes. bridges over road/rail must have minimum height 12
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23:14:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i recently started up SimCity 2000, man that game did not age as well as TT...
23:14:43  <planetmaker> please tell :-) Why not?
23:15:07  <masch> :D that one of the games i was to dumb for all these year. Never created something that worked
23:17:39  <Eddi|zuHause> dunno really, it's not one specific thing that is wrong... maybe the pale graphics. maybe the awkward user interface, maybe the really limited gameplay compared to SC4, ...
23:18:38  <Eddi|zuHause> the maps seemed smaller than 15 years ago :p
23:29:14  <planetmaker> :-)
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