Log for #openttd on 24th July 2012:
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00:00:11  <Sleepie> and was away for about 4 years or so
00:00:40  <Sleepie> so lots of new stuff to explore and try out
00:03:58  <Sleepie> well bedtime for me now, g' night
00:04:19  <Supercheese> Vale, dormiture ;)
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00:12:53  <Supercheese> Be back later, folks
00:12:56  <Supercheese> Valete
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05:52:17  <andythenorth> pipes!
05:52:25  <Supercheese> aye
05:52:28  <Supercheese> very kewl
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06:04:08  <andythenorth> how the buy menu used to be:
06:04:24  <andythenorth> improved buy menu:
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06:14:58  * Supercheese kind of likes the old style better
06:21:02  <Terkhen> good morning
06:21:12  <Supercheese> Salve, excitate
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06:44:22  <Alberth> ho, more uncoded sprites
06:56:45  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think you should cut the sprites off at the front, not at the end
06:57:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or alternatively, use zoomed-out sprites
07:00:27  <NGC3982> zoomed out feels preferable to sprites being cut-off.
07:00:40  <NGC3982> as long as it doesnt look wierd
07:00:46  <NGC3982> completely out of context
07:02:04  <__ln__> good @343 everyone!
07:02:16  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: english only!
07:03:30  <NGC3982> __ln__: @343?
07:03:30  <__ln__> good @343/1.609 everyone!
07:04:54  <__ln__> NGC3982: the current timezone-agnostic timestamp.
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07:06:11  <andythenorth> zoomed out was tried before for 2CC ship set, looks truly terrible
07:06:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: there is a trivial alternative solution
07:07:26  <andythenorth> as I compile nml -> nfo anyway, I could just use a string replacement step in my build to insert setx
07:07:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think in CETS i just used spaces
07:07:54  <Eddi|zuHause> which is problematic with font sizes
07:07:56  <__ln__> NGC3982:
07:08:04  <andythenorth> spaces also fails for other places the name string is used
07:08:13  <andythenorth> spaces was my first solution :)
07:08:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the difference is that i don't need so many :)
07:08:27  <andythenorth> yup
07:08:44  <andythenorth> hmm
07:09:32  <andythenorth> so is setx deprecated or not?
07:09:46  <NGC3982> __ln__: ah, i see.
07:09:58  <andythenorth> or is it in deprecated-but-legacy-support-will-be-maintained limbo land?
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07:13:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the latter i think
07:13:47  <Eddi|zuHause> everybody knows it's known to break, but nobody dares remove it
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07:22:38  <andythenorth> so deprecated but not deprecated :P
07:23:04  <andythenorth> if buy menu width was solved automatically, we would remove it though
07:23:07  <andythenorth> I imagine
07:23:15  * NGC3982 reads decapitated.
07:23:19  <andythenorth> same thing
07:23:29  <andythenorth> let's decapitate setx
07:31:47  * andythenorth sanitises FISH code a bit
07:32:53  <NGC3982> andythenorth: i must say, i admire your constant work with this.
07:33:07  <andythenorth> yes, I'm doing very well
07:33:15  <andythenorth> so far I have a more broken set with fewer vehicles in
07:33:19  <andythenorth> and probably lots of new bugs
07:33:22  <NGC3982> ah, i see.
07:33:26  <NGC3982> bugs are made for eating
07:33:31  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I'd consider setx deprecated. For now it will be supported for hysterical raisins. But... you never know ;-)
07:33:34  <NGC3982> (yes, im from that kind of country)
07:33:55  <planetmaker> NewGRF specs don't change as fast as Apple APIs ;-)
07:34:21  <planetmaker> (but faster than windows APIs are removed)
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07:35:11  <andythenorth> if someone actually fixed buy menu, setx could go.  newgrf author complaints could be ignored
07:35:18  <andythenorth> but fixing it seems to be hard
07:37:23  <peter1138> fixed?
07:37:39  <peter1138> if you didn't draw sprites too big...?
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07:41:42  <andythenorth> yes
07:42:01  <andythenorth> eeez too big
07:43:58  <andythenorth> so...a smallish fast tanker which also refits passengers / mail?
07:44:01  <andythenorth> for island trading?
07:44:08  <andythenorth> mostly I think tankers don't refit pax
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07:47:42  <Terkhen> neither do I
07:50:00  <peter1138> ships need that multiple cargos thing
07:50:19  <peter1138> without hiding it in articulation or shadows, heh
07:50:32  * andythenorth requests not :)
07:50:42  <andythenorth> that would mean redesigning FISH again
07:50:45  <andythenorth> which I'm just doing now
07:51:11  <andythenorth> this is only the third redesign of the set though
07:51:20  <andythenorth> another is probably fine :P
07:52:24  <andythenorth> actually....might be fine
07:52:26  <andythenorth>
07:52:30  <andythenorth> I just use those props
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07:52:58  <andythenorth> and refit/autorefit subdivides the amount for cargo_holds and tanks as required
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07:55:19  <NGC3982> this will make a fine day
07:55:23  <NGC3982> im the only supervisor
07:55:42  <NGC3982> and there are four customer service teams, and 62 salesmen here today.
07:55:55  <NGC3982> no time for ttd. :(
08:02:54  <Eddi|zuHause> you wanted to quit cold turkey! [where the hell does this expression come from?]
08:11:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: can you test for me (initial somewhat hacky stuff)
08:11:33  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: it's odd.
08:11:37  <andythenorth> yup
08:13:06  <NGC3982> "A narrowing of the meaning "suddenly or without preparation," from cold turkey being a dish that requires little preparation; originally used for heroin addicts.[7]"
08:13:15  <NGC3982> sounds fairly logical
08:13:26  <NGC3982> and: "
08:13:34  <NGC3982> and: "From the American phrase talk turkey meaning "to speak bluntly with little preparation"*
08:13:42  * andythenorth needs a list of sea areas for asia pacific
08:13:54  <Eddi|zuHause> but isn't "cold turkey" more like "leftovers from yesterday"?
08:15:42  <NGC3982> "Reference to the periods after Christmas and Thanksgiving holidays where cold (leftover) turkey was likely to be eaten, coinciding with the end of those holidays' characteristically high alcohol consumption. [10]"
08:15:47  <NGC3982> so, it seems.
08:16:08  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: patch: **** Only garbage was found in the patch input.
08:16:34  <andythenorth> oh
08:16:37  <andythenorth> no www
08:16:39  <andythenorth> nvm
08:17:22  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: curl -L
08:17:27  <Eddi|zuHause> we talked about this :p
08:17:45  <andythenorth> it's built ;)
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08:18:50  <LordAro> how's this?
08:19:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: looks like it will work for ships; haven't tested other types
08:19:15  <andythenorth> ah
08:19:22  <andythenorth> rvs got very wide :P
08:20:22  <andythenorth> also...I don't have a way to test RTL lang
08:21:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just select a language?
08:21:50  <andythenorth> who has RTL?  Arabic?
08:21:58  <andythenorth> yup
08:22:50  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... that may need some debugging... looks like all vehicle types now got the max width
08:22:56  <andythenorth> yup
08:23:09  * andythenorth considers translations for FISH
08:23:32  <andythenorth> most of the ship names are drawn from sea area names
08:23:40  <andythenorth> in europe / north america
08:23:56  * Terkhen would be able to do it this weekend
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08:24:14  <Eddi|zuHause> oh right that may be my fuckup...
08:24:19  <Terkhen> I probably would not translate model names though
08:24:25  <Eddi|zuHause> used max instead of min
08:24:35  <andythenorth> Terkhen: probably right :P
08:24:44  <andythenorth> it just amuses me as an idea
08:25:03  <andythenorth> localisation of the model name might be valid for ships
08:25:53  <Terkhen> if some of them still have generic names then yes
08:26:06  <andythenorth> they don't really
08:26:23  <andythenorth> also, metareas don't seem to be interestingly named outside of eu/na
08:26:39  <andythenorth> e.g. India has "", which is unromantic :P
08:27:39  <andythenorth> ho
08:27:46  <andythenorth> Hong Kong has some
08:27:54  <andythenorth> that's good
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08:29:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: can you reload the diff?
08:29:24  <andythenorth> k
08:29:52  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: vehicle names cannot be translated
08:30:00  <andythenorth> k
08:30:01  <andythenorth> nvm
08:30:04  <andythenorth> silly idea :P
08:30:09  <andythenorth> russian metareas
08:30:19  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, actually, they can
08:30:26  <andythenorth> that can't be *all* russian metarea names :P
08:31:03  <Alberth> LordAro:  WWT_LAST and _MASK should not be there, the quote in 'Flags' is obsolete, and the other values belong to only one widget, they are not general
08:31:12  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: all vehicles still taking width of widest
08:31:17  <andythenorth> for all vehicle types
08:31:42  <LordAro> it was a work in progress :L
08:31:42  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: does the north germanic languages use 'cold turkey' (except sweden, wish doesnt)?
08:31:50  <LordAro> but noted, will do so
08:31:50  <Eddi|zuHause> *mental note* actually upload the file
08:31:51  <andythenorth> there's no way curl would have cached the diff, yes / no?
08:31:55  <andythenorth> :P
08:31:56  <NGC3982> or west, for that matter
08:32:15  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: i haven't heard that expression in german
08:33:19  * andythenorth discovers a goldmine of metarea names
08:33:19  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: try again
08:33:42  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a penetrant *miau* coming from the side...
08:36:13  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: now back to default widths, except with some padding gone ;)
08:36:15  <andythenorth> unless...
08:36:23  <andythenorth> my sprites are cropped
08:36:25  <andythenorth> 1 min
08:36:27  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... that's weird
08:37:15  <andythenorth> yup
08:37:18  <andythenorth> my sprites were cropped
08:37:51  <andythenorth> my grf is setup to crop to 70px atm
08:38:20  <Eddi|zuHause> please try with different crop values
08:38:40  <andythenorth>
08:38:44  <andythenorth> that's with 140px
08:38:57  <andythenorth> some of the oddities relate to my bounding box + offsets
08:39:28  <andythenorth> let me try adjusting those
08:39:31  <andythenorth> this will take a few mins
08:39:32  <Eddi|zuHause> drawing offset may be wrong
08:40:13  <andythenorth> suspect it is
08:40:20  <NGC3982> i really like the design on those ships
08:40:24  <NGC3982> looks fantastic
08:40:39  <andythenorth> if I use -70px for my x_offs
08:40:41  <andythenorth> I get this:
08:41:06  <andythenorth>
08:41:08  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: are all ships the same size?
08:41:15  <andythenorth> no
08:41:18  <Eddi|zuHause> or are the top ones shorter?
08:41:38  <andythenorth> yes, they're 70px
08:41:57  <andythenorth> I'd need to change a few more things to get a wholly valid test
08:42:11  <andythenorth> e.g. I have white px etc
08:42:21  <andythenorth> I suspect it basically works though
08:42:22  <Eddi|zuHause> so the width is correct then, just your offsets are skewed because of the previous work to un-center them
08:42:28  <andythenorth> yes
08:42:49  <andythenorth> I think you have a 70px drawing offset issue
08:43:05  <andythenorth> and you might want some few px padding x before text starts drawing
08:43:56  <andythenorth> also, we might want 1px padding between edge of buy menu and start of sprite
08:44:18  <andythenorth> actually 2px, according to default sprites
08:44:26  <andythenorth> relying on authors to set that is...dubious
08:44:47  <andythenorth> oh, can't do that, it will change default sprites :P
08:46:25  <andythenorth> oh Angola, the romance of the high seas, with the exciting metarea name "Zone III"
08:46:44  <andythenorth> if you're not British, you may have no idea why this is such a big deal
08:46:53  <andythenorth>
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08:51:25  <Eddi|zuHause>,%2014.%20Feb%202014.png <-- not sure why this is so wide
08:52:09  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what's the xofs on your buy menu sprite?
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08:53:08  <Eddi|zuHause> you ask questions... :)
08:53:35  <Eddi|zuHause> sprite picker says -16
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08:54:35  <andythenorth> I think it's -33
08:54:39  <andythenorth> at a guess
08:57:32  <Eddi|zuHause> well ideally this would work without changing the grf
08:58:51  <andythenorth> +1
08:59:00  <andythenorth> if it works transparently, we can deprecate setx
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09:18:35  <planetmaker> moin
09:18:50  <andythenorth> hi planetmaker
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09:49:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i can't think of any way to properly adapt to GRFs that made hacky stuff to circumvent the old left border of the window
09:50:29  <andythenorth> break them?
09:51:02  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it'll not be "broken", just it will have a larger gap on the left
09:51:12  <andythenorth> stuff happens
09:51:44  <Eddi|zuHause> but on the whole i deem this patch "working" now, just needs a little code cleanup
09:51:54  <Eddi|zuHause> and a decision on minimum/maximum sizes
09:52:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and the padding that we talked about
09:58:05  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, which patch?
09:58:37  <Eddi|zuHause>
10:02:29  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: largest ships in FISH are 139px – view
10:02:32  <andythenorth> and they are known to clip
10:02:40  <andythenorth> in old FISH I had width of...
10:03:09  <planetmaker> tbh, I like the idea to use the sprite size within a clamp
10:03:22  <planetmaker> even if breaking old newgrfs with setx somewhat
10:03:25  <andythenorth> old FISH used max 118px with crop
10:03:32  <andythenorth> (crop if larger)
10:03:44  <andythenorth> anything bigger gets unpleasant
10:05:04  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, you might then at the same time as subsequent patch add the removal (ignore) of setx
10:11:26  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there's no reason why that person must be me
10:11:42  <Alberth> Hirundo: nml is way too fast now, I can't even finish my coffee ;)
10:13:22  <Alberth> ie 'good job' :)
10:15:58  <andythenorth> nml is fast? :o
10:16:16  <andythenorth> ho
10:16:18  <andythenorth> new commits
10:16:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: how does this affect CETS before my speed pitfall avoidance patches? (r548/549)?
10:17:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and r660
10:17:47  <andythenorth> :P FISH is same speed with new nml
10:17:59  <andythenorth> I guess nml -> nfo builds don't benefit so much :)
10:18:08  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause:  sorry, I don't understand that question
10:18:28  <Alberth> andythenorth: nope, it caches generated sprites, so the second and further runs benefit
10:18:58  <andythenorth> is the caching affected by a make clean?  Or is it internal to nml?
10:19:11  <Hirundo> It saves stuff in *.grf.cache[index]
10:19:15  <Alberth> you get two extra cache files
10:19:23  <Hirundo> So it depends on what your make clean does
10:19:45  <Eddi|zuHause> one would expect make clean to remove those files
10:20:02  <Alberth> andythenorth: and you can unignore :)
10:21:39  <Hirundo> I'm still trying to make writing sprites (esp. uncompressed with -u) significantly faster
10:22:39  <Hirundo> With compression enabled LZ77 remains the major timesink, while I can tinker a bit with it I don't know how to get an order-of-magnitude improvement there
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10:24:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i isolated 3 separate (avoidable) speed issues in nml, which i handled with CETS commits r548 (separate run for creating deps), r549 (encoding sprites) and r660 (evaluating larger expressions in templates)
10:25:04  <Eddi|zuHause> the one thing that i couldn't avoid was parsing the nml file ;)
10:25:06  <Alberth> ok, well, I have no clue about them
10:25:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: well, i was mainly asking which of those are affected by the recent changes, and how that changes the before/after time
10:26:43  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I don't know, I am only working on zbase{,build}, Hirundo did all the speedup work
10:27:17  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, i could probably build a parse tree in my generator script and pass that directly to nml ;)
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10:27:48  <Alberth> you can also directly write grf bytes, much faster :p
10:27:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: wrt padding between sprite and name, I suggest 2px
10:27:58  <andythenorth> based on default game
10:29:24  <Hirundo> NML should have a lisp-like syntax, so you can easily build parse trees
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10:29:38  <Hirundo> And then write more lisp to generate the lisp for you
10:30:19  <andythenorth> write lisp to write the lisp to generate the lisp
10:30:28  <andythenorth> write a lisp AI to do all of the above for you
10:30:38  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: welcome to higher level functions ;)
10:30:51  <Hirundo> "Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp."
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10:36:05  <Alberth> Hirundo: obviously, you should use xml instead
10:37:17  <Hirundo> <vehicle><speed>100</speed></vehicle> looks okay-ish
10:37:42  <Hirundo> <sprite><xpos>10</xpos><ypos>20</ypos> .... less so :-)
10:38:52  * andythenorth could work that way :P
10:39:08  <andythenorth> it's all just an intermediate format to me
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12:30:51  <andythenorth> tra la la
12:30:59  * andythenorth has added tankers to FISH
12:31:23  <andythenorth> they're almost same as equivalent coaster, but capacity is higher
12:31:34  <planetmaker> \^o^/
12:31:37  <telanus> cool
12:31:51  <andythenorth> maybe loading speed should be higher
12:32:01  <andythenorth> but loading speed is a 'meh' thing anyway
12:32:03  * telanus wonder if more hovercrafts will get added
12:32:14  <andythenorth> telanus: yes, there are some renders that need shading
12:32:18  <andythenorth> at least two, maybe three
12:32:53  <NGC3982> to FISH?
12:33:36  *** Stimrol [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:33:59  <andythenorth> yes
12:34:44  <Terkhen> :D
12:34:50  <andythenorth> gah
12:34:52  <andythenorth> model life
12:35:00  <andythenorth> what's this 'retire early' thing?
12:35:12  <andythenorth> I've never understood it
12:42:31  * NGC3982 wouldnt mind, thats for sure.
12:42:41  <NGC3982> shore/såaré/sauron.
12:42:50  * Pinkbeast would not say no to a job to retire from.
12:43:12  <andythenorth> not quite the answer I was looking for :P
12:43:29  <andythenorth> if jobs are so scarce, why do I know so many people who can't hire?
12:43:47  <andythenorth> are we building a world which needs skills that can't be supplied?
12:44:07  <Pinkbeast> I'd have one by now if I was willing to fly, realistically, so it's my own lookout
12:45:12  <andythenorth> my twitter feed is mostly just people looking for developers, account managers, salespeople, social media people, marketers etc
12:46:05  <NGC3982> this is actually something that puzzles me
12:46:12  <Pinkbeast> UNIX systems administrators? :-/
12:46:16  <NGC3982> most of you are clearly active with serious ttd word on daily basis
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12:46:28  <NGC3982> wich makes me think most of you work more on this then with an actual job
12:46:31  <NGC3982> is that the case?
12:47:35  <NGC3982> since, the thing is, if i was to finance a rocket-science-developer-coding-cosmology project, id' know where to turn. :p
12:48:03  <andythenorth> Pinkbeast: where are you (approximate continent)?
12:48:16  <Pinkbeast> NGC: ... presumably "not to people who work more on openTTD than their actual jobs". :-)
12:48:19  <__ln__> too bad the only rocket scientist isn't here actively anymore
12:48:23  <Pinkbeast> Approximately Cambridge, UK
12:48:35  <andythenorth> hmm
12:48:42  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: ;)
12:48:45  <NGC3982> jobs are never hard to find.
12:48:47  <Belugas> hello
12:48:48  * andythenorth is the proud owner of a kanban backlog full of sysadmin tasks :P
12:49:08  <NGC3982> Belugas: nooner's!
12:49:23  <Belugas> [09:00] <NGC3982> Belugas: nooner's!
12:49:26  <Belugas> not exactly...
12:49:58  <andythenorth> Pinkbeast: got commercial experience? :P
12:50:14  <NGC3982> Belugas: well, sorry. it's a bit hard to track individual planetary rotation out here i deep space.
12:50:28  <Pinkbeast> Contracting, no, but I did leave... uh, let's say a very large databse firm that begins with an O after a decade, last year.
12:50:43  * andythenorth is currently in the unusual situation of having more money than developers temporarily
12:50:49  <andythenorth> which also implies more work than developers to do it
12:50:58  <andythenorth> this is not the common case for the last 4 years or so :P
12:51:34  <Alberth> moin Belugas
12:51:43  <andythenorth> what I really need is a sysadmin in Australia so other people can stop getting up at horrible times for pingdom
12:52:03  <Pinkbeast> 3 years in academia before that, 1 year at a small ISP, and now you know how old I am. I do fail the "in Australia" criterion by about as much as is possible, though.
12:52:14  <andythenorth> yeah
12:52:25  <andythenorth> I am, globally speaking, in the same place as you :P
12:52:28  <andythenorth> near enough
12:52:33  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, but if you would fly... :-P
12:52:46  <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> \^o^/ <-- batman costumes are forbidden!
12:52:49  <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: I still wouldn't go and live in Australia. :-)
12:52:55  <andythenorth> NGC3982: to answer your earlier question, I have plenty of work
12:52:58  <andythenorth> I'm just sick today
12:52:59  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, not where we live. Luckily :-)
12:53:03  <NGC3982> andythenorth: ah, i see.
12:53:16  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, no worries mate ;-) But it's a nice place
12:53:24  * NGC3982 works way to much..
12:53:26  <andythenorth> maybe pikka can do sysadmin? :P
12:53:33  <andythenorth> wtf is pikka anyway?
12:53:51  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I need to understand this silly 'retire early' thing for vehicles
12:53:55  <planetmaker> he used to drive busses. But now...? Haven't heart of him lately
12:53:57  <andythenorth> or rather, I need an implmentation
12:53:57  <NGC3982> i could use a coder, a sysadmin, a cisco-mo-man and a new staff of customer service bosses.
12:54:01  <NGC3982> please bring.
12:54:04  <NGC3982> :<
12:54:11  <Pinkbeast> planet: It may well be but all the native wildlife is utterly deadly (and more seriously, everyone I know, including my Aussie ex, lives here).
12:54:33  <planetmaker> you care about your ex? Peculiar
12:55:04  * NGC3982 wildlife is utter boredom.
12:55:11  <Pinkbeast> We get on well enough, yeah - I think other than my first girlfriend, who's vanished, I get on with all of mine these days.
12:56:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: retire early ~= vehicle lifetime; model lifetime ~= purchase availability + vehicle lifetime
12:56:56  <planetmaker> <-- I disagree, NGC3982  ;-)
12:58:27  <NGC3982> planetmaker: yey!
12:58:57  <NGC3982> planetmaker: did you know, your name is fantastic in sweden.
12:59:12  <planetmaker> I didn't
12:59:27  <planetmaker> and don't. Why?
12:59:32  <andythenorth> these big boats look *so* stupid in rivers :P
12:59:33  <NGC3982> ingo is a legendary (chubby) boxer, and borstel is sort of eletrocuted broom.
13:00:20  <NGC3982> planaet: where are these pictures taken?
13:01:14  <planetmaker> The one I linked is taken in Bremen
13:01:47  <planetmaker> But it varies. Whereever I am ;-)
13:01:51  <NGC3982> :)
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13:09:15  <andythenorth> don't tell pikka
13:09:21  <andythenorth> but I think UKRS 1 is cuter than UKRS 2
13:09:29  <andythenorth> due to larger size
13:09:48  * Pinkbeast ... yes. But I guess if it wasn't to look daft next to NARS...
13:11:18  <Pinkbeast> Also (although this isn't his fault, since it's mostly the addon sets) UKRS2 has this confusion between "this is a generic locomotive representing most big 4-6-0 mixed traffic types" and "here is a separate model for each big Pacific"
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13:11:51  <Pinkbeast> Also, hello, 2cc livestock cars. :-/
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13:14:38  <NGC3982> wat, there is a ukrs1?
13:14:39  <NGC3982> oh.
13:14:41  <NGC3982> im playing it
13:14:48  <Pinkbeast> Tee hee. :-)
13:16:18  <NGC3982> i always thought the 2 was the addon
13:16:35  * Pinkbeast looks at the comparison picture on PikkaWiki but is biassed by the way the UKRS2 A4 has no side skirts as any sane person would favour
13:17:02  <Pinkbeast> NGC: Perhaps you should be asking, what, there's an UKRS2?
13:17:31  <andythenorth> UKRS 2 is too squinty for my old eyes
13:18:19  <Pinkbeast> Don't play at 1600xlots? Seriously, I've been deliberately lowering the resolution - it's a pain when I want six stations and four trains' windows open, but it looks better in a way.
13:18:28  <andythenorth> I can't change res
13:18:38  <planetmaker> zoom in ;-)
13:18:47  <Pinkbeast> Awkward laptop display?
13:18:51  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: ;)
13:18:55  <planetmaker> 2x makes for a good default view actually IMHO
13:19:12  <NGC3982> you people have way to few monitors.
13:19:14  <NGC3982> :D
13:20:04  <Pinkbeast> Yes, NGC, there is an UKRS2. You can start in 1830 or so with 2-2-2 Planets if you like. And don't want to move any cargo until 1844.
13:20:22  <andythenorth> actually laptop display does change res
13:20:25  * andythenorth tested
13:20:32  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: im playing it on my server right now, and have been playing it for six months or something.
13:20:53  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: i have simply never seen the "2".
13:20:59  <NGC3982> :p
13:21:16  * Pinkbeast winces deeply every time he sees an old 4:3 game stretched to 16:9, but as far as I can tell 90% of humanity are totally oblivious to aspect ratio issues.
13:21:19  <NGC3982>, btw.
13:21:50  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: that depends. playing a game in stretched to 16:9 can be more comfortable then playing 4:3, even if quality suffers.
13:21:50  <Pinkbeast> Ah. Sorry. If you'd like me to tell you anything else you already know, just say. :-(
13:22:23  <Pinkbeast> more comfortable - if, unlike me, you do not wince deeply every time you look at it.
13:22:33  <NGC3982> true
13:22:36  <NGC3982> i usually dont mind
13:22:54  <NGC3982> at least with the games i tried it with. zeus, aoe, settlers, and so on.
13:23:00  * Pinkbeast wants a device like TV-Be-Gone except instead of "Off" it sends "Change aspect ratio" for all makes of TV.
13:23:05  <Pinkbeast> Have you seen Widelands?
13:23:08  <NGC3982> niet.
13:23:39  <Pinkbeast> It's a Free Settlers 2 clone, and - like OTTD - is past the original by now (except that the single-player is woefully short)
13:23:55  <NGC3982> :O
13:24:07  <NGC3982> why do i miss these things
13:24:19  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: thank you, ill try it.
13:24:21  <andythenorth> I should play 800x500
13:24:27  <andythenorth> it makes the gui way more usable
13:24:32  <andythenorth> and makes me less annoyed
13:24:38  <NGC3982> ;)
13:24:41  <Pinkbeast> The big change is setting quotas for wares, so you don't have to micromanage turning workshops on and off.
13:24:43  <andythenorth> I think I don't play the game much because it hurts my eyes
13:24:57  <andythenorth> but I can't play 800x500 unless I play full screen
13:25:03  <andythenorth> and full screen sucks for newgrf dev
13:25:11  <Pinkbeast> Oh, and military control is first-come-first-served; you can't push someone's borders back without attacking.
13:26:02  <NGC3982> andythenorth: surely, multiple screens is the choice for grf development?
13:26:05  <Pinkbeast> Multiple monitors may be the answer (he says, sitting at a single 21" tube)
13:26:14  <NGC3982> -the choice + the better choice.
13:26:23  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: my god.
13:26:42  <andythenorth> yeah, multiple screens would be the way forward
13:26:44  <Pinkbeast> Hey, it still works. And in winter it's not so much of a liability. :-)
13:26:51  <andythenorth> do you have a portable, battery powered screen?
13:26:52  <Pinkbeast> Plus if chavs break in they're not going to nick it. :-)
13:27:03  <andythenorth> that I can carry along with a laptop and a toddler?
13:27:34  <NGC3982> andythenorth: :)
13:27:38  <Pinkbeast> Wait, Andy, you've got a job _and_ a child _and_ you crank out OTTD stuff? Do you ever sleep?
13:27:41  * NGC3982 is never going to have kids.
13:28:22  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: no, he doesnt. observing andy's IRC habits, ill say he's on heroin or something.
13:28:32  * Pinkbeast is much fonder of the 19" low-footprint tube in the other room, but this one is... bigger.
13:28:43  <NGC3982> or, he has stumbled upon some kind of time dilation mechanism we don't know about
13:29:08  <Pinkbeast> Don't say "never" have kids until you've got your tubes safely tied. Trust me, I have. :-)
13:29:14  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: for god sake, the power costs of a tube monitor is higher then the cost of a new (bloody) flat monitor.
13:29:34  <NGC3982> i lost my "tubes" in an electrical accident a few years ago
13:29:40  <Pinkbeast> Ouch!
13:29:42  <NGC3982> so yes, im sure (and a bit more).
13:30:08  <Pinkbeast> Oh, bad luck, I assumed you were describing a voluntary state of affairs. Remove foot from mouth, etc.
13:30:11  <__ln__> NGC3982: i don't think "tubes" consume significantly more electricity than flats
13:30:16  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: harr. :>
13:30:24  <NGC3982> __ln__: ;)
13:30:47  <__ln__> NGC3982: something around ~70-80 watts both.
13:31:09  <Pinkbeast> Also this flat's quite cool and I'm quite nocturnal - for at least some of the year, it's that or burn gas heating the spodroom, although I'm quite resistant to having the heating on as a rule.
13:31:10  * andythenorth has learnt to function adequately on limited sleep
13:31:17  <__ln__> led might make a difference.
13:31:46  <NGC3982> this was a newspaper stacker machine, with 64A three phase connection.
13:32:00  <NGC3982> i was to adjust a motor switch and used the wrong tool.
13:32:05  <NGC3982> dumb and young, as i was.
13:32:21  <NGC3982> s/connection/connections/
13:32:27  <Pinkbeast> Christ, I'm glad the worst I ever got from that kind of thing was a titanium plate in my jaw.
13:32:37  <NGC3982> oh, that's awesome!?
13:32:37  <NGC3982> :D
13:32:43  <NGC3982> Pinkjaws
13:33:11  <Pinkbeast> Well, at least it'll be hard to break it again. Assuming I remember to hit the ground with the left-hand side of my face next time.
13:34:49  <Pinkbeast> I remember the moment at the top of the arc when I thought "oh, shit, here we go" as being quite long, but I think that's entirely retroactive memory.
13:35:18  <NGC3982> "top of the arc"?
13:35:30  <NGC3982> yes, moments like that seems to go on forever
13:35:33  <Pinkbeast> I was climbing over a fence and gave myself a boost up of excessive force
13:35:34  <NGC3982> but it's a memory thing.
13:35:40  <NGC3982> ah, i see.
13:36:12  <Pinkbeast> So basically I faceplanted from standing on something about 4' off the ground. "I know, I'll bounce off that broad flat surface and be in a lot of pain."
13:37:11  <NGC3982> ouch.
13:37:23  <NGC3982> i dont remember any pain at all, wish is a bit nice.
13:37:35  <NGC3982> i went to work, everything went black, i woke up three weeks later.
13:37:50  <Pinkbeast> Well, predictably, it didn't really hurt a great deal until I'd dealt with picking self up, picking bicycle up, getting to road, calling ambulance, etc. Adrenalin.
13:37:50  <NGC3982> filled with painkillers
13:38:02  <NGC3982> ah, yes indeed.
13:38:37  * Pinkbeast thinks back... I was still doing pretty well when the ambulance turned up; I waved enthusiastically at them from the other side of the road, and they pull up. "Where's the patient?"
13:38:53  <NGC3982> oh
13:38:54  <NGC3982> :D
13:39:11  <NGC3982> it's funny how the mind can react to serious accidents
13:39:18  <Pinkbeast> "Ah", I say (yes, I am wordy enough, I will talk with a broken jaw), "I have some news for you." At this point I infer that they notice that I'm covered in blood.
13:39:29  <NGC3982> oh
13:39:30  <NGC3982> oh my
13:39:48  <NGC3982> i had this employee who took a fall in a marble stairway at the office
13:40:04  <Pinkbeast> Ambulancemen are _delighted_ to get a patient at 0300 on Sunday who is not blind drunk, it turns out. :-)
13:40:31  <NGC3982> he broke several ribs, the nose, blood everywhere, a concusion from seattle and back and constant bleeding from the ear. we was i such a chock he tried to manicly get back to work
13:40:37  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: haha, i guess.
13:40:46  <Pinkbeast> That does sound excessively persistent.
13:41:27  <Pinkbeast> I've done a rib and it was way worse than the jaw - you spend a month telling people not to make you laugh.
13:43:52  <NGC3982> :(
13:44:41  <Pinkbeast> Basically with the jaw you eat mush for a month and that's it, job done, back to normal except you can't eat apples for months
13:45:36  <Pinkbeast> I did the rib in a bicycle prang, incidentally, just to introduce the tiniest sliver of transport relevance
13:48:54  <NGC3982> :(
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13:49:17  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so for a ship with vehicle life 45 years, introduced in 1870
13:49:25  <andythenorth> what should retire early prop be?
13:49:52  <andythenorth> next equivalent model is introduced ~1904
13:50:24  <Eddi|zuHause> so vehicle life = 45, early retire = 45, model life = 1904-1870 + 45
13:50:30  <Eddi|zuHause> and a magic +4 somewhere
13:50:34  <Eddi|zuHause> which i have to look up
13:51:28  <Eddi|zuHause> early retire = 45-4
13:51:59  * andythenorth will code that
13:52:14  <Eddi|zuHause> assume to sprinkle in magic +1 or +2 for some overlap
13:52:34  <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on playtesting
13:52:40  <Eddi|zuHause> which nobody really did with CETs
13:52:48  <Eddi|zuHause> or i didn't get feedback
13:52:51  <Eddi|zuHause> or i ignored it
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14:14:56  <NGC3982> guys, im noticing a lot of the english-to-swedish translation stuff is faulty with FIRS.
14:15:01  <NGC3982> where do i turn to help out?
14:15:06  <NGC3982> the forums?
14:15:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
14:15:43  <Eddi|zuHause> newgrf development
14:17:33  <planetmaker> NGC3982, see also and get the files from
14:18:11  <planetmaker> then post the updated language file in the forums. or open a ticket at FIRS issue tracker
14:24:29  <NGC3982> ill do it, thank you.
14:24:38  <NGC3982> for some reason, 40% of the industries are translated.
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14:37:49  <Alberth> there is no infra structure to warn translators for out-of-date translations
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15:14:42  <glx> Alberth: strings needing validation ?
15:17:34  <Alberth> devzone does generate such output, except it is hidden somewhat. Apparently it is not enough, or the process of changing strings is too cumbersome, or both.
15:17:34  <Alberth> For me personally, I'd like to have a web-page that shows what newgrfs need new strings
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15:44:45  <Alberth> hi hi
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15:53:55  <frosch123> hai albert :)
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16:24:31  <Terkhen> the devzone script is a hack :P
16:26:01  <Alberth> I have a so much more beautiful script, but it's not used :(
16:26:37  <Alberth> but even then, the information is hard to get imho
16:29:28  <Terkhen> link? :)
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17:02:24  * telanus is translating FIRS into Afrikaans
17:12:55  <Terkhen> andythenorth: <--- one of your ponies
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17:26:43  <Hirundo> michi_cc: Wrt., NML now caches real sprites, so the encoding is done only once but the filesize remains the same
17:28:26  <linux_probe>  /topic
17:28:28  <linux_probe> whoops
17:28:47  <andythenorth> Terkhen: yup
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17:32:05  <michi_cc> Hirundo: Under the assumption that "finished" GRFs usually don't contain many duplicate sprites there's probably not much use for it. I can think of a minor use case though, if, for whatever reason, you want the same sprites in a spriteset and a replace(new) block (maybe e.g. a railtype GRF, change signals just for this railtype or change the default signals).
17:32:57  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24434 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt french.txt):
17:32:57  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:32:57  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 14 changes by telanus
17:32:57  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: french - 6 changes by glx
17:44:10  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: he meant "cached between builds", so if you change code, the sprite encoding is skipped
17:44:48  <Hirundo> The cache also caches identical sprites in a single build
17:47:37  <Hirundo> michi_cc: I added your use case and my POV to the issue
17:47:40  <Alberth> it's not entirely the same I think. You cache based on input data, michi re-uses based on encoded sprites
17:48:27  <Alberth> ie when I duplicate a .png and use both, you have it twice in the cache, while it can be re-used
18:04:08  * telanus is 60% finished translating FIRS :D
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18:05:42  <andythenorth> hmm
18:06:23  * andythenorth has discovered that OS X spaces (window manager thing, idea stolen from other *nix OSes) handles different screen resolutions ok
18:07:44  <andythenorth> oh no
18:07:54  <andythenorth> it's openttd that's doing the right thing
18:07:58  <andythenorth> nvm
18:08:06  <Alberth> :)
18:08:18  <andythenorth> anyway, andythenorth can play lower res openttd
18:08:25  <andythenorth> which is considerably better as a thing to do
18:08:55  <andythenorth> 1280x800 sucks a bit
18:09:03  <andythenorth> 800x500 much nicer
18:13:31  * telanus always play at 1600x900
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19:11:15  <Sleepie> hello
19:13:38  <Alberth> hi
19:15:11  * NGC3982 is so full
19:17:47  <Sleepie> NGC3982: ?
19:17:50  <NGC3982> of food.
19:17:54  <Sleepie> ah
19:17:58  <NGC3982> galaxies need a lot of energy, you know.
19:18:26  <Sleepie> I see ;)
19:19:20  <frosch123> are you at least making some planets from time to time?
19:22:00  <Sleepie> maybe just black holes :P
19:22:07  <telanus> what's a "Smithy Forge"
19:23:47  <NGC3982> frosch123: my digestive systems create quite a few.
19:23:53  <NGC3982> although, its mostly gas.
19:32:47  <Eddi|zuHause> telanus: a forge melts the metal and a smith forms molten metal, thus a smithy forge is a mixture of both
19:33:31  <Eddi|zuHause> or something like that
19:33:56  <Eddi|zuHause> might as well be a word that andythenorth made up :p
19:34:21  <telanus> ok thanx
19:35:00  <Eddi|zuHause> telanus: anyway it's a less technologically advanced predecessor of the steel mill
19:35:41  <Eddi|zuHause> for the pre-industrial economy of FIRS
19:37:31  <telanus> OK
19:38:50  <Belugas> too much Deathmole on the system, i got really aggressive with my boss
19:38:52  <Belugas> bad bad bad
19:40:04  <frosch123> night
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19:40:23  <telanus> I've only got the STR_EXTRA to translate for FIRS (30 lines), When I finish tommorow, where on the forum must I upload it?
19:43:16  <andythenorth> smithy forge
19:43:17  <andythenorth>
19:43:31  <andythenorth> and why I stuck 'Smithy' in front of it:
19:43:38  <andythenorth> there are other kinds of metalworking forge
19:44:25  <andythenorth>
19:45:16  <telanus> cool
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20:02:20  <andythenorth> slow forum day
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20:39:18  <andythenorth> so
20:39:34  <andythenorth> a ship introduced in 1870, with vehicle life 45 years
20:39:38  <andythenorth> when should it expire?
20:39:42  <andythenorth> model life is 34 years
20:40:03  <andythenorth> oops
20:40:08  <andythenorth> model life is 79 years
20:40:12  <andythenorth> 'retire early' is 41 years
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20:40:46  <andythenorth> ship is still available in 2070
20:41:21  <Sleepie> 79 years sounds a bit long
20:42:28  <andythenorth> @calc 79 - 41
20:42:29  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 38
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20:42:49  <andythenorth> only 38 years for model life
20:42:57  <andythenorth> @calc 1870 + 38
20:42:57  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1908
20:43:02  <andythenorth> @calc 1908 + 17
20:43:02  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1925
20:43:04  <andythenorth> hmm
20:43:08  <andythenorth> should be gone by 1925
20:43:09  <andythenorth> meh
20:44:45  <Sleepie> depends how many successors are introduced in 1925 already imho
20:45:48  <Terkhen> good night
20:46:00  <Sleepie> bye Terkhen
20:46:27  <andythenorth> gone by 1914
20:46:33  <andythenorth> plausible
20:46:50  <andythenorth> so also model expiry doesn't respect the date cheat :P
20:46:51  <andythenorth> how droll
20:46:57  <andythenorth> for those of us testing sets :P
20:47:14  <andythenorth> fast forward on a set covering 150 years of gameplay?
20:47:15  <Sleepie> feature request?
20:47:27  * andythenorth needs some play testing drones :P
20:47:37  * andythenorth never makes feature requests
20:47:40  <andythenorth> famously
20:48:01  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: expiry method appears to work, on a sample size of 1 test with 1 vehicle
20:48:05  <andythenorth> cba to test more :P
20:49:17  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> so also model expiry doesn't respect the date cheat :P <-- needs "resetengines" afterwards, that reinitializes also the rerandomization, so you can effectively try "multiple games"
20:49:37  <Eddi|zuHause> but that doesn't cover prototype phases and stuff
20:49:48  <andythenorth> don't care
20:49:54  <andythenorth> anything to ease testing is welcome :)
20:50:26  <andythenorth> also
20:50:31  <andythenorth> time for me to go to bed
20:50:37  <andythenorth> bye
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21:15:00  <__ln__> hmm, was there a particular name for the most powerful frequency in a spectrum?
21:17:16  <Noldo_> like if you take fourier transformation the term that has the biggest amplitude?
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21:28:04  <__ln__> yes
21:28:42  <__ln__> if it can even be called amplitude
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21:35:40  <Eddi|zuHause> so a fury transformation turns you into a horse?
21:36:33  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Bad idea, apparently :P :
21:37:58  <Eddi|zuHause> so there's a harmonic element in the begining, but what's that peak later on?
21:40:30  <Eddi|zuHause> ("harmonic" in this sense means frequencies of 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 and so on of the original frequency)
21:41:42  <Eddi|zuHause> before synthesizers, it was practiaclly impossible to make an instrument that produces a true sine wave
21:41:50  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: harmonics usually mean rather a multiple. Than a fraction
21:41:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
21:42:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant wavelength
21:42:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm always mixing that up :)
21:42:18  <planetmaker> :D
21:42:35  <valhalla1w> __ln__: er, the dominant frequency? I cannot think of a more specific term.
21:43:10  <valhalla1w> + it seems to be in use by other people, which is a good check ;-)
21:44:06  <Eddi|zuHause> so i have this tune stuck in my head...
21:44:21  <Eddi|zuHause> and was wondering whether that movie is known anywhere "western"
21:44:59  <__ln__> valhalla1w: sounds good
21:45:03  <Eddi|zuHause> (i believe it's a czech movie. it was quite popular here)
21:49:45  <__ln__> (doesn't look or sound familiar even though children's programmes in the 80's here contained some material from e.g. gdr and ussr)
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22:06:47  <__ln__> i got 59% average:
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