Log for #openttd on 30th July 2012:
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03:35:16  <TheStranger> gamers watch this you won't regret it!
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04:21:25  <andythenorth> moin
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05:42:07  <andythenorth> hmm
05:43:13  <andythenorth> vehicle replacements
05:43:36  <andythenorth> those form a directed graph right?
05:43:57  <andythenorth> [in my newgrf where vehicles have a 'replaced by' property]
05:44:15  * andythenorth is trying to figure out how to generate a replacement tree
05:44:53  <Supercheese> Well, first you have to get a replacement seed, and then dig a hole in the ground...
05:44:56  <Supercheese> :P
05:46:03  <andythenorth> you're closer than you think :P
05:46:20  <andythenorth> if I know the root vehicle for any replacement chain, it's easy to represent it
05:46:23  <andythenorth> if I don''s hard :P
05:47:12  <andythenorth> A -> B -> C -> D is easy to represent if I know A is the start
05:47:29  <andythenorth> but I don't know that :P
05:47:43  <andythenorth> there's no 'replaces' prop, just 'replaced by'
05:48:03  <Supercheese> then make one
05:49:37  <Supercheese> btw are we talking about your config file or in nml afterwards?
05:51:28  <Supercheese> Oh are you joining forces with the WSF ferry set?
05:52:08  <Rubidium> andythenorth: hopefully they form a directed acyclic graph (thus a set of trees)
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05:53:49  <andythenorth> Rubidium: yes it's a set of DAGS (/me had a wikipedia visit)
05:54:52  <andythenorth> actually I think it's a straightforward dep graph
05:57:06  <andythenorth> Supercheese: this is for documentation / testing only
05:57:30  <andythenorth> writing out the dep graph of replacements in plain text lets me check everything is configured correctly
05:57:35  <andythenorth> and might be interesting to players
06:01:52  <andythenorth> I could walk all the vehicles and derive a 'replaces' list for each one (from the 'replaced by' prop)
06:02:11  <andythenorth> then look for vehicles with 'replaces = none'
06:02:26  <andythenorth> which would form the start of chains
06:02:48  <andythenorth> then iterate from there, building lists
06:03:03  <andythenorth> seems like it might scale unpleasantly :P
06:09:56  <NGC3982> morning
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06:19:32  <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> andythenorth: hopefully they form a directed acyclic graph (thus a set of trees) <-- actually directed acyclic is more generic than set of (directed) trees. the equivalence holds only for undirected graphs
06:20:26  <andythenorth> interesting
06:21:12  <andythenorth> hmm
06:21:21  <andythenorth> why is nml still shouting at me about dutch strings?
06:21:28  <andythenorth> "String commands don't match with english.lng"
06:22:05  <andythenorth> solved
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06:27:41  * Eddi|zuHause imagines the andythenorth-solution to that problem being "remove dutch.lng"
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06:29:13  <andythenorth> :P
06:29:17  * andythenorth did it properly
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06:29:41  <andythenorth> although I do favour the occam's razor approach :P
06:29:59  <andythenorth> fewer codes = less bugs
06:30:24  * andythenorth wonders if that holds
06:30:39  <andythenorth> it's possible to have one line of code riddled with enormous bugs
06:30:50  <NGC3982> of course it does?
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06:41:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "whenever you fix one bug, you create two new ones" doesn't depend on code size (-difference)
06:41:39  <NGC3982> surely, compressing code makes the creator more aware of the used functions?
06:42:01  <NGC3982> i mean, the big problem with me learning C# is that i use code that codes code that codes code that doesnt work.
06:42:04  <NGC3982> :>
06:47:41  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a very bold theory :p
06:48:14  <Supercheese> Yo dawg, I heard you like code, so we made you code that codes...
06:48:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant the line before that
06:49:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no problem with code that codes :)
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06:51:34  <NGC3982> well, i hope you catch my drift.
06:52:11  <NGC3982> for instance
06:52:41  <NGC3982> i managed to make an sql query that collected information, formated it with code that didnt change anything and then wrote it back to the database.
06:52:48  <NGC3982> by accident
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08:33:41  <andythenorth> what happens if I have an nml vehicle with no graphics block?
08:34:43  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:41:27  <__ln__> mañanas buenas
08:42:10  <NGC3982> andythenorth: i did that by accident while making the tutorial truck. i cant remember the error messages, but it didnt work at all without an added picture.
08:42:17  <NGC3982> a blank picture gives a blank truck.
08:42:26  * NGC3982 tried to put all kinds of stuff in there
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08:45:07  <andythenorth> V453000: feel like drawing a ship?
08:48:34  <NGC3982> andythenorth:
08:48:36  <NGC3982> there you go
08:48:41  <NGC3982> have fun, no need to thank me.
08:51:23  * NGC3982 is so bored out.
08:53:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the graphics block is the nml-equivalent to nfo action 3
08:54:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. without it you can only change default properties, not introduce new vehicles
08:55:04  <Terkhen> __ln__: "buenos dias"
08:55:27  <__ln__> Terkhen: días
08:56:03  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: sounds plausible for my case
08:59:15  * andythenorth is desperately seeking competent artists
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08:59:25  <andythenorth> incompetent artists > competent artists :P
09:01:11  * NGC3982 sad face.
09:05:01  <Terkhen> andythenorth: tired of pushing sprites?
09:05:11  <andythenorth> approximately
09:05:21  <andythenorth> I wouldn't mind if I had uninterrupted hours to do it
09:05:24  <andythenorth> but I don't
09:05:34  <andythenorth> it's easier to code with an uninterrupted flow than draw
09:05:44  <andythenorth> uninterrupted / interrupted /s
09:06:08  <__ln__> Terkhen: ¿es legal tomar fotos en lugares públicos en españa?
09:06:33  <Terkhen> __ln__: I don't know the details but usually yes
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09:07:58  <__ln__> vale
09:08:20  <planetmaker> English only, __ln__
09:09:44  <__ln__> replace e->i in my question and it's virtually english
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09:11:04  <planetmaker> is legal tomar fotos in luaris pulicos in espana? Rather not
09:11:20  <planetmaker> especially not from language pedantics like you ;-)
09:13:36  <NGC3982> tomar fotos sounds like a planetary system in star trek DS9.
09:13:56  <Terkhen> it sounds like taking pictures to me
09:14:04  <planetmaker> :-)
09:14:59  <planetmaker> The question not hard to guess. But I find it funny comming from the channels "English only" person :-)
09:15:06  <planetmaker> *channel's
09:15:42  <planetmaker> thus, sorry, couldn't help myself to pickup that ball :-)
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09:17:33  <__ln__> my "English only" comments would be taken far too seriously if i wasn't the one probably speaking the most non-english in here. :)
09:19:14  <NGC3982> uhm
09:19:33  <NGC3982> seriosly, when i read "english only" in a topic, ill asume that jokes and single events are allowed.
09:20:02  <__ln__> NGC3982: English only; "I'll"
09:20:16  <NGC3982> harr.
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09:21:17  <__ln__> besides, nowadays nobody speaks hungarian here on a regular basis, so we need to come up with something else.
09:21:20  <planetmaker> we're humor free and allow no exceptions. Except for zombies
09:21:38  <NGC3982> ive seen the truth in that first statement a few times now..
09:21:43  <Dutch> I have a problem in the game help please !!1
09:22:01  <NGC3982> Dutch: ohnoez call the maglevbulance! \o/
09:22:49  <Dutch> i download the bus and tram set, but its dont show up in the game why ???????
09:23:14  <NGC3982> can i aks to aks a kuestion?
09:23:18  <planetmaker> Did you use the ingame content download to obtain it? Did you activate it in the NewGRF settings?
09:23:53  <Dutch> yes both
09:23:58  <planetmaker> Did you start a new game after activation in the NewGRF settings?
09:24:18  <planetmaker> Changes there do not apply to existing savegames
09:24:46  <NGC3982> planetmaker: speaking of, is it possible to add or remove any grf's at all during a running game?=
09:24:49  <NGC3982> -=
09:25:57  <Dutch> im gonna try to start a new game first'
09:27:11  <planetmaker> NGC3982: I believe you know the answer to that question already...
09:27:24  <NGC3982> planetmaker: i do, but im emphasizing the "at all"
09:28:26  <Dutch> it works only in new game
09:28:48  <Dutch> not in my old saving maps
09:28:50  <NGC3982> Dutch: yes, that is how NewGRF's work. you need to apply NewGRF's before starting a new game.
09:29:43  <planetmaker> Dutch: yes, that's intended and there's no "cure". NewGRF settings are an integral part of the map.
09:29:54  <peter1138> andythenorth, got the floor boards up. Managed to screw right through the middle of it...
09:30:02  <andythenorth> how exciting
09:30:11  <andythenorth> should have just left the screw in
09:30:13  <planetmaker> NewGRF define the game objects. Changing the meaning of the objects mid-game will usually break your savegames
09:30:16  <andythenorth> do it a bit tighter, problem solved
09:30:17  <peter1138> andythenorth, it is!
09:30:44  <peter1138> I'm leaving it like that until the gas man comes so 1) he can extract it safely, and 2) he can LOL all day about it...
09:30:44  <NGC3982> planetmaker: so i guess, the answer was "no, there is no grf that can be changed or added during in-game. ever."?
09:31:37  <peter1138> And also, where does one get new floorboards from...
09:31:51  <peter1138> Neither B&Q nor Wickes seem to do them.
09:31:57  <planetmaker> theoretically the answer is 'yes'. But it needs knowledge as of which. And it's not necessarily the obvious ones. And to every rule there's an exception there. So in general 'no'. Except for people who know what they do (aka newgrf developers)
09:32:10  <Dutch> thank you all for help
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09:37:42  <planetmaker> NGC3982: due to the fragility and the even theoretical inability to predict compatibility (even of newgrf A v1 and newgrf A v1.01 with eachother), things cannot be changed. Unless you activate the proper developer settings
09:39:49  <planetmaker> newgrf authors could even make a newgrf which de-activates randomly other newgrfs...
09:39:51  <Terkhen> the only solution would be to deprecate NewGRFs completely and create a new type of addon that would take into account stuff like that from the start :P
09:40:00  <Terkhen> s/solution/"solution"/
09:40:06  <planetmaker> now, I like that idea, random de-activation. lol :-)
09:40:25  <__ln__> Terkhen: is it a common practice that keyboard shortcuts are localized into spanish? e.g. Bold is Ctrl-N, Underline is Ctrl-S, Save is Ctrl-G?
09:40:58  <Terkhen> __ln__: yes
09:41:13  <Terkhen> it is quite stupid
09:41:35  <planetmaker> uh, that's common practise?
09:41:42  <NGC3982> planetmaker: i see.
09:42:02  <NGC3982> random de-activation :D
09:42:07  <Terkhen> planetmaker: yes :P
09:42:32  <__ln__> that's surprising to say the least..
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09:44:29  <__ln__> in a way it makes sense, but... i guess there are programs whose shortcuts are not designed to be localizable.
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11:02:30  <__ln__> however it's not a reason for everyone to stop talking
11:02:39  <NGC3982> :D
11:09:31  <Eddi|zuHause> it's as good an excuse as any...
11:09:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how's your buy menu patch?
11:10:08  <andythenorth> that's another excuse to not talk :)
11:10:16  <Eddi|zuHause> it's starving of neglect
11:10:33  <Varazir> I'm having problem that my iron pits will not delevery any ore
11:12:23  <NGC3982> Varazir: have you made sure that the station is close enough to the industry?
11:12:39  <Varazir> yes
11:12:53  <Varazir> it's next to it
11:13:12  <NGC3982> Varazir: are there more then one station in the vicinity of the industry?
11:13:25  <Varazir> I have 2 pits with the same problem
11:13:39  <NGC3982> are you using some kind of NewGRF?
11:13:49  <Varazir> no default installation
11:15:02  <NGC3982> Varazir: note that an industry wont deliver any goods to a nearby station, if the vehicle used isnt configured to accept and carry the iron ore.
11:15:35  <NGC3982> check your train/truck, and see if you have the wrong wagons or/and made the correct refit.
11:15:43  <Varazir> ok
11:15:47  <Varazir> will check
11:15:58  <Varazir> could be that the stations I have ar eto close
11:16:07  <NGC3982> let me know if you need help on how refit/choosing the correct wagons for refit works.
11:22:18  <Varazir> will do
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11:42:42  <planetmaker> Varazir, industries will also only deliver stuff to a station (by default) after a vehicle tried to pickup the cargo there
11:42:44  <planetmaker> at least once
11:43:04  <planetmaker> also: it's a self-generated map, not a scenario you play, right?
11:43:04  <Varazir> could be that
11:43:11  <Varazir> self
11:43:46  <planetmaker> (scenarios could be anything - they're basically a savegame, thus settings will be as the scenarion creator chose them to be)
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11:46:46  <Varazir> I think it's a opps
11:46:59  <Varazir> but I'll check it later
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11:48:09  <Alberth> moin
11:48:44  <planetmaker> hallo Alberth
11:51:45  <andythenorth> bon midi
11:52:43  <Alberth> hi andy
11:55:10  <planetmaker> hi andythenorth
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16:08:34  <peter1138> andythenorth, gas pipe fixed
16:08:51  <peter1138> although it was a bit worrying when he started unscrewing it and asked "is the gas off?"
16:10:26  <Hirundo> That's a whole new level of 'smoke testing'
16:11:03  <andythenorth> he sounds like a comedian
16:11:38  * andythenorth would hate to think of all those "I have a patch for that somewhere's" exploding :P
16:21:32  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe he should have had a patch for the pipe :p
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17:15:12  <Wolf01> hello
17:16:58  <NGC3982> im so bored.
17:17:14  <Wolf01> you're not alone
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17:56:32  <NGC3982> in FIRS
17:56:42  <NGC3982> how come there is no animation on the sand pit?
17:57:21  <Alberth> sounds like a good project to fight boredom :p
17:58:02  <andythenorth> NGC3982: what are you thinking of animating?
17:59:21  <NGC3982> sand! everywhere!
18:02:43  <andythenorth> the water is animated
18:02:47  <andythenorth> you want more? :P
18:04:00  <__ln__> andythenorth: the sandworm should be animated
18:04:25  * andythenorth animates andythenorth sleeping
18:05:01  <NGC3982> andythenorth: it is?
18:05:15  <andythenorth> you have full animation turned off?
18:05:23  <andythenorth> the water has waves
18:05:23  <NGC3982> oh
18:05:24  <NGC3982> ..
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18:35:56  <telanus1> I thing I found openttd's smallest town:
18:36:02  <NGC3982> :-O
18:37:41  <Eddi|zuHause> telanus1: a town with a church has 0 inhabitants, afair
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18:38:29  <telanus1> haven't found one of them
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18:40:36  <planetmaker> you can have towns without buildings ;-)
18:41:47  * NGC3982 builds a church on top of PM
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18:45:16  * FLHerne rants about breakdowns on the forum :P
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19:25:34  <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24449 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5254]: Coast and sea are not the same.
19:27:30  <FLHerne> @fs 5254
19:27:30  <DorpsGek> FLHerne:
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20:10:55  <frosch123> night
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20:14:44  <planetmaker> FLHerne: your rant is... true nevertheless. At least in large parts
20:20:39  <FLHerne> Recognised by someone importantish! :D
20:21:00  * FLHerne is honoured :-)
20:21:10  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:27:12  <FLHerne> Is it sane for OTTD to save screenshots to ~/.openttd?
20:27:35  <FLHerne> Sticking them in a hidden folder is a bit inconvenient
20:34:55  <planetmaker> that's the linux way to put things related to a certain programme
20:35:11  <planetmaker> windows uses like Documents/OpenTTD and so does OSX
20:35:48  <FLHerne> planetmaker: I thought that was more for config or program data, rather than user-facing stuff?
20:38:16  <planetmaker> yes...
20:38:56  <FLHerne> Is there a config-file/settings option for that?
20:39:02  <planetmaker> what's NewGRFs?
20:39:17  <planetmaker> what's scenarios? Is there a difference between content_download and manual download?
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20:39:34  <planetmaker> it's a compile-time thing
20:41:32  <FLHerne> Program data, I suppose? Online content covers a lot of that sort of thing...people faffing around with strange NewGRFs (me included) should just put up with it
20:41:58  <FLHerne> Add a :P to that sentence :P
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20:43:17  <FLHerne> But more seriously, the 'standard user' can get most NewGRFs etc from the online content just by clicking on a few buttons
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