Log for #openttd on 4th August 2012:
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08:20:07  <Alberth> moin
08:21:32  <andythenorth> bonjour Alberth
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08:49:25  <Terkhen> good morning
08:49:58  <andythenorth> hi Terkhen
09:00:46  <telanus> hallo
09:03:04  <Terkhen> hi telanus
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09:13:38  <TheDude> morning
09:13:52  <Alberth> moin
09:14:00  <TheDude> hi andythenorth, I have few problems with your FIRS
09:14:37  <TheDude> 1st - cargo ID at TT foundry are not all correct (recyclables)
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09:25:11  <Alberth> how not correct?
09:26:56  <Alberth> that is, it fails in what way?
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09:41:24  <TheDude> in TTfoundry is RCYC ID as 1E, but in FIRS it is 1F
09:43:00  <andythenorth> plausible
09:43:03  * andythenorth will check
09:43:41  <andythenorth> meh
09:43:54  <andythenorth> can't remember which slot NARS 2 regearing takes
09:45:22  <TheDude> but I guess I can just use good cargo table, and I dont need to care about this
09:46:00  <TheDude> and I thiunk not or cargo classes are correct on tt foundry
09:46:02  <TheDude> also, upon what is decided the definition of sugar cane and sugar beet?
09:46:14  <Supercheese> tropical vs nontropical, no?
09:46:45  <andythenorth> looks like regearing is in 30 (1E) I think
09:46:49  <andythenorth> I'll update the site
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09:47:16  <TheDude> thanks
09:47:22  <andythenorth> done
09:47:37  <andythenorth> cargo classes on tt-foundry are not correct
09:47:45  <andythenorth> I'll link them to wiki instead
09:47:54  <TheDude> I am updating my set after almost a year, and I forgot lots of the system I chose
09:48:16  <Alberth> a good chance to document how it works now :)
09:49:01  <TheDude> well, I have this lovely excel tables in colours, but it is quite messy
09:51:47  <andythenorth> TheDude:
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09:53:21  <andythenorth> TheDude Sugar Beet and Sugarcane are different cargos
09:53:31  <andythenorth> beet is non-tropic, cane is tropice
09:53:50  <andythenorth> hmm
09:53:59  <andythenorth> tropice <- a merge of arctic and tropic :P
09:54:23  <TheDude> very logical :D
09:54:27  <TheDude> thanks for update
09:55:00  <TheDude> would you know how is George doing? havent heard of him for some time
09:55:00  <NataS> i want global regions
09:55:05  <andythenorth> no you don't
09:55:09  <andythenorth> you think you do
09:55:17  <NataS> with climate varation by latitude and rain shadow
09:55:20  <andythenorth> but it's yet another case of "more looks like better, but isn't"
09:55:29  <andythenorth> make choices
09:55:33  <andythenorth> everything all at once is boring
09:55:44  <andythenorth> it makes the game flat and lack texture in the long run
09:55:58  <NataS> at very least, I'd want deserts in tropic maps to use rainshadows
09:56:02  <NataS> and not really
09:56:17  <NataS> it would be intresting to see varrying terrain
09:56:29  <NataS> I don't like temprate because it's all green
09:56:38  <NataS> while Arctic has variable snowlines
09:56:52  <NataS> and Tropic has jungles, farmland, and deserts
09:56:54  * andythenorth wonders how the python conversion of FIRS is going
09:57:23  <NataS> if I could have them all in one map, it would be nice varation
09:57:41  <NataS> I don't see how getting more than one biome on a map would make it lack texture
09:57:50  <NataS> that's a contradiction.
09:57:56  <andythenorth> every new game you start is the same then
09:58:15  <NataS>
09:58:37  <NataS> maps would still be diffrent
09:58:42  <planetmaker> moin
09:58:48  <NataS> also, the ability to make a map mostly one biome would exist
09:58:57  <andythenorth> it's an apt case of 'more is better' fallacy
09:59:02  <NataS> like you could have a tropic map with snowcovered mountains.
09:59:14  <andythenorth> as per any kid who gets a free run at 'have as many icecream flavours as you like'
09:59:14  <NataS> well whatever fallacy you are using needs a fancy name
09:59:22  <NataS> because your logic is pretty falicious right now
09:59:27  <planetmaker> TheDude: something I wondered about: you(?) seem to make a new bananas entry for each of the luukland trainsets. That's not required. And updating is also easier, if you keep the grfID and just increase the internal version of your newgrf
09:59:32  <NataS> okay
09:59:48  <NataS> having the ability to chose many ice cream flavors, and combinations thereof
09:59:50  <NataS> that's good
09:59:55  <NataS> eating all the flavors at once
09:59:55  <andythenorth> is 'falicious' something illegal in 15 states :)
09:59:56  <NataS> that's bad
10:00:09  <NataS> but having the ability to and actualy doing are diffrent things
10:00:17  <NataS> you should be able to do anything
10:00:24  <NataS> if it's a bad idea, that's the user's problem
10:00:52  <planetmaker> ice cream would be a good toyland cargo... for the fridge vehicles and wagons
10:01:05  <NataS> anyways
10:01:19  <NataS> Alpine climate exists
10:01:24  <andythenorth> more climates in one map <= new map array?
10:01:26  <NataS> alpine+tropic would be cool
10:01:44  <NataS> as would a map maker than can simulate rainshadows
10:01:52  <NataS> instead of random deserts
10:01:54  <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes and no. I needs one or two more bits
10:01:55  <NataS> which are ugly
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10:02:41  <planetmaker> which might work with some bit shuffling. At least in the vast majority of cases. Not sure all cases can be solved easily
10:03:17  <TheDude> planetmaker, the second entry made Luukland himself, dont know why
10:03:24  <planetmaker> andythenorth: already one bit move would give you 8 instead of 4 different climate zones
10:03:31  <TheDude> he wanted some update by his own
10:04:01  <planetmaker> hm, ok. I just wondered about the multitude of independent citybuilders and trainsets there
10:04:16  <planetmaker> it's not really necessary and quite confusing to the average joe user, I'd say
10:04:31  <TheDude> are you able to delete grf from that list?
10:04:45  <TheDude> there are some that will not be used anymore
10:05:13  <planetmaker> well, we don't delete. But it's feasible to set the (OpenTTD) versio nrequirements such that it is invisible unless you need it for a savegame
10:05:32  <planetmaker> which is actually also something the authors can do themselves
10:05:40  <planetmaker> just set a very low max. OpenTTD version
10:05:42  <TheDude> good to know
10:05:49  <TheDude> thanks
10:05:51  <planetmaker> np
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10:11:41  <Alberth> planetmaker: fridge vehicles are not good, you don't see the ice cream then
10:12:02  <planetmaker> :-) true. A transport like bubbles is better
10:12:22  <planetmaker> ready-to-serve ice cream cones
10:13:30  <Alberth> hmm, perhaps a quite literal 'fridge', with lots of frozen water hanging from the wagon when it carries ice creams
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10:15:36  <Alberth> hello Wolf01
10:15:41  <Wolf01> hai!
10:16:13  <Alberth> you're in a good mood, sunny weather there?
10:19:56  <Wolf01> yeah, and it's too much hot and humid
10:20:39  <Wolf01> and I'm on vacation, finally :D
10:22:47  * planetmaker envies Wolf01
10:22:55  <planetmaker> and greets him, too :-)
10:25:39  <andythenorth> just make the ice cream vans transparent
10:25:44  <andythenorth> encased in ice
10:25:48  <Rubidium> why would you envy Wolf01? Don't you get holidays? I wouldn't like it if my holiday were too hot and too humid
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10:26:37  <planetmaker> I get holidays in 6 days :-)
10:26:47  <planetmaker> Next Friday I'm heading off to Switzerland ;-)
10:26:53  <drac_boy> hi
10:27:01  <Alberth> andythenorth: good idea, transport a big piece of ice!
10:27:18  <planetmaker> hi drac_boy
10:27:23  <drac_boy> hm is andythenorth still trying to code too much as usual? :)
10:27:53  <planetmaker> yes :-P
10:28:01  <planetmaker> though I'd call it "just right"
10:28:03  <Alberth> don't know, this is just about the best way to transport ice creams in toyland
10:28:34  * drac_boy has been thinking about slowly getting back to my grf that I had to put off due to other things before as well tho
10:28:46  <drac_boy> stil got the whole tracking table and everything
10:29:02  <andythenorth> hmm
10:29:08  <andythenorth> improved docks?
10:30:42  <Alberth> it looks like a hacky solution to me; if you can move the ship into a station tile, imho you can also extend the station by one tile
10:31:09  <Rubidium> oh, a dev camp with Ammler and planetmaker? ;)
10:31:21  <planetmaker> hm, sadly not quite :-)
10:31:53  <Alberth> Rubidium: not a 3k party, but a 3k week :)
10:32:12  <planetmaker> :D
10:39:03  <drac_boy> btw what are you working on now andythenorth?
10:44:30  * planetmaker assumes "stuff" ;-)
10:48:34  <Alberth> or *various newgrfs*
10:49:01  <drac_boy> Alberth exactly what is he working on anyway? I only recall FIRS
10:49:19  <Alberth> firs, fish, heqs, pixa, bandit
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10:49:52  <drac_boy> pixa?
10:51:20  <Alberth>
10:53:25  <drac_boy> mm ok
10:54:34  * andythenorth off
10:54:35  <andythenorth> byw
10:54:38  <andythenorth> bye*
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11:00:17  <drac_boy> so what are the rest of you doing now anyway? :P
11:00:28  <planetmaker> "stuff" ;-)
11:01:49  <drac_boy> planetmaker so basically you have no idea what you're doing? :)
11:03:37  <planetmaker> I do.
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11:11:02  <Alberth> usually 5 things at the same time :)
11:11:06  <Alberth> hi frosch123
11:11:50  <frosch123> hai albert :)
11:13:15  <drac_boy> Alberth heh...well either way I'm looking at whats left to finish yet in tracking table...sort out some ongoing webcoding issues..and otherwise checking a few different webshops I have to yet order from
11:13:18  <drac_boy> :)
11:18:51  <Alberth> ok :)    /me is chatting to several people, reading forums, debugging/coding freerct, looking at zbase, zbasebuild, zbuild, reporting x11 crash and chat client problems, and thinking to make some black liquid called coffee :)
11:19:10  <drac_boy> freerct? hadn't realized that was still in some progress...might have to look it up
11:19:26  * drac_boy still has rct and one of its expansion pak yet
11:20:25  <Alberth> me being the major developer, and working on zb* implies freerct is not going forward much :)
11:20:38  <planetmaker> same with zephyris :-P
11:21:16  <Alberth> zephyris can't do much in freerct, except make graphics that cannot be used yet :p
11:21:33  <Alberth> so his time is better spent in zbase :)
11:21:42  <planetmaker> :-)
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11:24:52  <drac_boy> hmm freerct could be interesting..if its just as low on hardware requirement too
11:24:58  <drac_boy> btw is it windows or windows/linux?
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11:25:44  <Terkhen> why only those options? it could be linux only too :)
11:27:32  <Alberth> it is, currently :)
11:28:29  <Alberth> I am quite sure you could make it work at windows too, but nobody has done that yet
11:29:59  <Terkhen> I don't think that's a pressing issue, as soon as openrct starts to work someone interested(tm) will probably appear to port it to windows
11:31:10  <Alberth> yep, in fact I already had two emails about 'helping programming', but they both disappeared after I explained the first thing they needed to do is make it work at their OS :)
11:32:13  <Terkhen> people gets scared easily nowadays
11:32:19  <drac_boy> heh heh
11:32:29  <drac_boy> I wouldn't mind help testing it on the other hand :)
11:32:43  <Terkhen> making it compile on MinGW would probably be simple
11:34:42  <drac_boy> hmm one little question it independent gui or does it depend on any particular DE?
11:35:28  <Alberth> it uses SDL for displaying the gui
11:36:18  <drac_boy> mm sdl thats ok, as long as it does not do that 'does not work with most current sdl' bug that certain game are known too well for :s  :)
11:37:07  <drac_boy> well either way, I'm still free for testing at some point
11:39:31  <Alberth> come back in a year or so :)
11:39:44  <Alberth> currently there is no 'game' to speak of
11:39:51  <drac_boy> :p
11:40:05  * drac_boy will just play rct then ;)
11:40:48  <Alberth> I thought you wanted to code a grf ;)
11:41:45  <drac_boy> alberth..actually its just tracking table and some sprites...going leave most of nfo to someone else
11:42:23  <Alberth> everybody is doing nml nowadays :)
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11:43:31  <mohwaqas12> Hey all
11:43:36  <Alberth> hi
11:43:52  <drac_boy> alberth...try run nml in the patch tho so... :)
11:44:08  <planetmaker> drac_boy: yes. so what?
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11:44:34  <Rubidium> chill should just update his patch
11:44:56  <planetmaker> :-)
11:46:14  <mohwaqas12> Hey , is there any other development manual for openttd or i have to read  doxygen docs
11:46:38  <Alberth> the source code? :)
11:46:42  <planetmaker> :D
11:47:10  <Rubidium> there are some (outdated) bits on the wiki
11:47:25  <drac_boy> rubidium even if he did there'll still be a good need for keeping nfo parallel with nml tho, just saying :)
11:47:34  <Rubidium> but definitely no high level designs or something
11:47:45  <drac_boy> alberth good one :P
11:49:42  <mohwaqas12> okay sure, i m still setting up develpment environment :)
11:51:19  <drac_boy> :)  me don't have much of one but I'm ok with it anyhow
12:04:33  <__ln__>
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12:15:31  <Alberth> the joys of connecting everything with everything else :)
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12:41:06  <mohwaqas12> hey guys, i have set up openttd development environment and compiling it in eclipse for the first time. where should i start looking to learn more about it?
12:46:15  <frosch123> what stuff do you want to learn?
12:46:27  <frosch123> ottd is big, noone knows it complete :p
12:47:21  <mohwaqas12> yes i know, i just started it , so i dont know myself where to start
12:47:59  <frosch123> well, you have a specific goal?
12:48:35  <frosch123> <- or do you want to take a look at the todo list
12:48:52  <frosch123> (but mind that for some of the easy tasks there are already patches on flyspray)
12:50:09  <mohwaqas12> okay thanks for that, i will look into it
12:50:38  <frosch123> if you are interested in some task; ask first before working on it
12:50:55  <frosch123> as i said, some are already laying around in some fs task
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13:27:19  <mohwaqas12> i have compiled openttd, do i have to compile opengfx to make it run
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13:28:31  <FLHerne> mohwaqas12: You can use a downloaded build fine :-)
13:28:45  <mohwaqas12> FLHerne: so where do i have to keep them
13:28:48  <Terkhen> mohwaqas12: no, you only need to download it and place it in the correct folder, check the readme for details
13:29:24  <mohwaqas12> okay thanks, i thought i must compile them too
13:30:11  <FLHerne> mohwaqas12: If you built current trunk, you want a nightly OGFX:
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13:32:04  <mohwaqas12> okay thanks,i am downloading them
13:36:42  <mohwaqas12> does it also requires original graphics
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13:39:03  <Terkhen> mohwaqas12: no
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15:23:19  <telanus> does firs replace openttd's industries or only parts of it?
15:25:00  <Super_Random> I believe firs replaces most of the industries, but I know it leaves some of them
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15:28:03  <frosch123> i think it replaces all of them
15:28:11  <frosch123> it also replaces all cargos
15:28:28  <frosch123> firs is a "maxed" industry set :)
15:31:16  <telanus> Openttd's wood industry is still available, as I found out, as lumber in firs is translated in afrikaans the same as wood, thus I had 2 entries of "hout" in my refit option
15:32:35  <Alberth> it uses some of openttd original industry graphics
15:33:39  <telanus> I updated my firs translation to stop the confusion for afrikaans players
15:34:27  <telanus>  English  & for afrikaans
15:50:56  <Devroush> hi I was wondering, are there any new features planned for 1.2.2?
15:51:07  <Devroush> or will it be a bug fix release
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15:56:15  <Rubidium> is there some simple/standard (async) wrapper in python that allows you to send structures (dicts etc) over the network without bothering with doing multiple recvs until everything is read? In other words, a wrapper where you get the structure when it has been completely received?
16:05:40  <Super_Random> I just love signals..
16:11:08  <Alberth> Rubidium: Twisted is the defacto-standard async programming framework, except it is somewhat ..... twisted
16:11:43  <Rubidium> so it's not simple
16:13:05  <Alberth> it's completely event driven
16:13:37  <Alberth> so your process steps get all broken into separate pieces that trigger events when ready
16:14:35  <Alberth> they say it is simple, but I never did enough with it to really grasp it
16:15:49  <Alberth> I have done other things with async, where you basically collect all IO-handles you want to wait for, wait for some event from one of those handles, wake up and handle it, and loop
16:16:12  <Alberth> unfortunately, async programming is always very messy.
16:17:24  <Rubidium> all I see in the examples is 'lineReceived'
16:18:23  <Eddi|zuHause> so you just pickle/unpickle things?
16:20:09  <Alberth> lineReceived is for line-based streams
16:20:44  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it's for network code, so when a page says within the first section "not intended to be secure against erroneous or maliciously constructed data" I immediately red-flag that
16:24:24  <Alberth> you have several connections I assume?
16:24:32  <Rubidium> yep
16:24:45  <Rubidium> not that likely in reality, but still
16:25:14  <Alberth> doing anything else besides IO ?
16:25:41  <Rubidium> credentials check
16:25:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so you need another wrapper to ensure the data is not maliciously altered?
16:26:08  <Rubidium> validating received stuff against a database
16:26:14  <Rubidium> putting stuff into a database
16:26:44  <Rubidium> validating massive, as in 200+ MB, incoming data streams for certain characteristics
16:27:33  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what that even means
16:28:08  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: maliciously altered... okay, but what about maliciously constructed
16:28:22  <Rubidium> after all, expect the worst coming from the network (in this case internet)
16:31:13  <Alberth> pickle is useless
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16:42:28  <Alberth>    this is the simplest approach I have found so far
16:43:05  <Alberth> it lacks many details, including creation of new jobs, but hopefully you get the idea
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17:26:14  <Sacro>
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17:48:02  <mohwaqas12> how to compile openttd with debugging symbols in order to debug using gdb
17:51:31  <Alberth> ./configure --enable-debug      and then 'make' :)
17:52:00  <Alberth> hmm, perhaps first a 'make clean' to ensure you rebuild everything
17:55:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: almost everything is simple if you leave out the details :p
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17:56:12  <Eddi|zuHause> (if it's not, you should probably not try to program it)
18:00:39  <Alberth> :)
18:00:58  <Alberth> If it's not, you did not abstract away enough details :p
18:01:15  <Eddi|zuHause>
18:02:53  <Alberth> :)
18:05:40  <frosch123> mohwaqas12:  ./configure --enable-debug=3 to also disable optimisations, so debug is easier
18:07:38  <Eddi|zuHause> why using iDevices (or anything with "remote wipe") is a seriously bad idea:
18:08:52  <frosch123> [13:28] <__ln__>
18:09:06  <frosch123> sorry :p
18:09:09  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, i wasn't really paying attention today :p
18:09:50  * Alberth fixes his configure script
18:10:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: when switching between debug/release, no make clean is necessary
18:11:26  <Alberth> oh, it rebuilds everything by itself?  smart system
18:11:38  * Alberth pats ./configure
18:11:56  <Eddi|zuHause> it keeps the object files separate, so you can switch back and forth easily
18:12:30  <Alberth> oh, even better than rebuilding :)
18:12:42  <Alberth> I never build releases :D
18:14:53  <frosch123> yeah, release builds are only needed to debug optimisation bugs
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