Log for #openttd on 16th August 2012:
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00:00:13  <planetmaker> Hm, yes. Maybe indeed ask your question in the AI section of the forums. "Better" IRC times are evening hours instead of post-midnight in European times :-)
00:00:27  <argoneus> sleeping is for scrubs
00:00:27  <argoneus> ;P
00:00:42  * planetmaker suddenly grows grey-green leaves
00:01:29  <planetmaker> who knows what people really do when they "go to sleep" ;-)
00:01:58  <Terkhen> I was going to sleep myself before I saw that question :P
00:02:00  <Terkhen> so good night
00:03:36  <planetmaker> good night Terkhen :-)
00:03:48  <planetmaker> time for me, too, actually
00:08:06  <Wolf01> and for me too, night all
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00:08:59  <argoneus> lol
00:23:25  <Mazur> I usually go and read a bit.
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07:40:38  <dihedral> hello
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08:04:16  <NGC3982> What a hellish morning.
08:06:35  <NGC3982>
08:06:41  <NGC3982> That made it a bit brighter.
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09:13:08  <Wolf01> 'morning o/
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11:44:21  <drac_boy> hi
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12:33:48  <Belugas> hello
12:34:59  <drac_boy> hi belugas
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12:46:04  <Terkhen> hello
12:47:30  <drac_boy> hi Terkhen
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13:43:04  <NGC3982> Im about to arrange "BarTTD".
13:45:32  <Sacro> oh/
13:49:36  <drac_boy> heh..what is that? :)
13:54:29  <NGC3982> We are to gather in a pub (reservated, of course)
13:54:45  <NGC3982> Eat good food, drink good drinks and play good Openttd on laptops.
13:54:52  <NGC3982> I have already arranged the site and time.
13:55:15  <lugo> neat!
13:55:17  <NGC3982> Im have yet to decide how to make this more of an online event, though.
13:55:29  <NGC3982> Like, a Facebook event and a bigger forum post, i guess.
13:55:58  <lugo> heh, will you be using goal scripts?
13:56:11  <Sacro> what country?
13:56:18  <drac_boy> heh, NGC3982 is the game only for these in the pub or others from across the country can join into the online fun too?
13:56:25  <NGC3982> No, not really. I guess it's more of a fun-GRF thing then actual competing.
13:56:36  <NGC3982> drac_boy: I don't know. What do you think?
13:57:13  <lugo> you didn't ask me but still, i'd make it open, why not.. :)
13:57:56  <NGC3982> Yeah, sure.
13:58:03  <drac_boy> NGC3982 well I guess the two main questions would be: which trainset and what build version?
13:58:04  <drac_boy> :)
13:58:22  <NGC3982> Well, the important thing is that we play and have fun together, the rest is kinda irrelevant.
13:58:24  <lugo> NUTS! :p
13:58:30  <NGC3982> But i guess a FIRS+NUTS game would be nice.
13:58:43  <V453000> anyone really plays nuts? /surprised
13:58:45  <drac_boy> mm sounds ok... what ottd build tho?
13:58:50  * drac_boy pokes V453000
13:58:55  <NGC3982> drac_boy: The ..latest, i guess?
13:58:56  <NGC3982> :D
13:58:56  <drac_boy> why do you think it was released if noone would use it :P
13:59:24  <V453000> idk I have my ring of people who use it but I obviously have no clue about the "general public" .p
13:59:26  <drac_boy> NGC3982 hmm we'll see but I only have chill or patch here most of the times atm ... but even if I don't join I'm sure you all would have fun anyway
13:59:30  <drac_boy> V453000 :P
13:59:37  <NGC3982> drac_boy: :)
14:00:53  <V453000> but yeah combination with firs is nice :p
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14:05:16  <lugo> i wonder if usage of hot-air-baloons could be made somewhat beneficial, so that the map is getting a little more colored :D
14:05:26  <drac_boy> heh
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14:09:42  <V453000> I personally like opengfx+ industries, that meks it colored too if you use nuts; with all these cargoes you get all the colourful wagons :p
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14:17:43  <drac_boy> I'm still partial to HEQS .. anyone else too? :)
14:22:04  <andythenorth> not me
14:22:12  <NGC3982> HEQS?
14:22:30  <drac_boy> NGC3982 the tram/road grf
14:22:34  <drac_boy> mostly freights :)
14:23:10  <drac_boy> hmm been a while I forgot who the creator of that grf was now
14:23:25  * NGC3982 googles.
14:23:42  <NGC3982> Who ever it is, it's probably andythenorth.
14:23:44  <NGC3982> ;)
14:23:53  <drac_boy> heh?
14:24:02  <NGC3982> "Author:andythenorth, Zephyris "
14:24:06  <NGC3982> Hahaha
14:24:07  <NGC3982> :D
14:25:00  <drac_boy> NGC3982 either way I sometimes have a network of various tram lines running in every directions .. I guess thats the fun thing about having slow but high-capacity signals-not-needed vehicles :)
14:25:09  <NGC3982> :)
14:25:31  <drac_boy> only if it was plausible to build trams just like you build trains but I suspect thats too much re-coding to be worth it atm tho
14:25:43  <drac_boy> so refitting for different cargos and lengths seem like a fair workaround for now
14:26:11  <andythenorth> it's crappy
14:26:21  <andythenorth> but nobody cares :(
14:26:25  <andythenorth> woe is andythenorth
14:26:32  <drac_boy> heh :P
14:26:53  <drac_boy> well just so you know I'll always play heqs unless it decide to take a backward change for some reason :)
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14:33:20  <lugo> i'm personally waiting on roadtypes before i start to complain about heqs :p
14:33:29  <drac_boy> lugo why? :)
14:34:27  <andythenorth> complain anyway
14:34:39  <andythenorth> roadtypes will *never* happen, money on it
14:34:50  <lugo> this feature would make heqs much more interesting, and i would play much more with it, thus gaining things to complain about
14:34:54  <NGC3982> Any particular reason?
14:35:05  <drac_boy> lugo still doesn't make much sense to me?
14:35:12  <NGC3982> Wait, with "road types" we are talking more than esthetics, i guess.
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14:43:57  <drac_boy> what kind of road types were there supposed to be anyway?
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15:40:32  <andythenorth> blah
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15:56:21  <drac_boy> hi BenTrein
16:06:03  <BenTrein> Hey
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16:10:57  <drac_boy> how're you?
16:11:09  <BenTrein> :) Good. You?
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16:15:59  <LordAro> afternoons
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16:16:43  <drush> hello everyone!
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16:19:58  <drush> anyone knows here that OTTD has got press coverage in this month's polish CHiP mag?
16:22:15  <drac_boy> doing ok BenTrein just trying to sort out a few little things
16:22:33  <BenTrein> Such as...
16:22:40  <drac_boy> not to mention adding certain patch downloads to my upcoming website as well...oh and to figure out whats for lunch soon :-s
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16:28:01  <argoneus> hello
16:28:05  <argoneus> why is this channel not on freenode?
16:28:06  <argoneus> ;_;
16:28:10  <BenTrein> No idea.
16:28:31  <Rubidium> because of a certain operator spamming us quite often for money or so
16:29:06  <LordAro> 'a certain' ?
16:29:14  <drush> argoneus freenode is a bad network
16:29:22  <drush> no sane person should allow themselves to associate with them
16:29:54  * drac_boy actually uses freenode a lot with not one single issue
16:31:15  <argoneus> I frequent about 12 freenode channels
16:31:28  <argoneus> on OFCT I frequent only one
16:31:30  <argoneus> can you guess which?
16:31:31  <argoneus> :P
16:31:35  <argoneus> OFTC*
16:31:43  <drush> you gentlemen probably don't know about 2 things then
16:33:11  <drac_boy> argoneus yeah .. oftc is a low server just like many others .. to put it that way
16:33:42  <drush> Rob Levin faked his death and then started to embezzle the network from Europe
16:34:39  <drush> second, it took Freenode a month to fix an XPS vuln in their ircd
16:34:49  <drush> whereas OTFC fixed it in a day
16:36:53  <drac_boy> and why does otfc not even have any major channels at all then?
16:38:13  <drush> a lot of people probably don't know about those shady episodes of freenode's history
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16:39:22  <drush> can't blame people for not knowing history, people just want to use irc
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16:47:14  <Phos> i got a question
16:47:25  <drush> feel free to ask Phos
16:47:36  <Phos> if there is a possibility to ajust the ratio between the industries
16:47:54  <Phos> so that there are 4 coal mines and only one powerplant
16:48:06  <Phos> and so on
16:48:24  <LordAro> without an industry grf, i think that is not (yet, of course) possible
16:48:25  <drush> 4 production plants per 1 consumption plant?
16:48:39  <Phos> industry grf?
16:48:55  <LordAro> like ECS Vectors, FIRS, w/e
16:48:59  <Phos> i got industries 0.3.4
16:49:22  <Phos> is that what you mean?
16:49:54  <LordAro> maybe
16:50:01  <LordAro> which OTTD version do you have?
16:50:28  <Phos> because there are so many options, sinde i played this game (2008 or so)
16:50:33  <Phos> the newest
16:50:40  <Phos> 1.2.2 RC1
16:50:59  <LordAro> that won't be a problem then :L
16:51:32  <LordAro> can you specify what you mean by "industries 0.3.4" ?
16:51:42  <LordAro> a screenshot might help
16:52:48  <Phos> its "New GFX+Industries 0.3.4"
16:52:59  <Phos> is this only graphics?
16:53:33  <LordAro> i think it is in fact "OpenGFX+ Industries" , although that may be a translation issue
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16:54:07  <Phos> btw, thanks for the help
16:54:16  <argoneus> can anyone help me with AI development
16:54:17  <argoneus> ?
16:54:30  <argoneus> or is this only for discussion like 'how to make money"
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16:55:19  <LordAro> Phos: either way, iirc, OGFX+ industries does not provide that sort of functionality
16:55:32  <Phos> okay
16:55:35  <Rubidium> argoneus: how long have you frequented freenode? I reckon not long enough ;)
16:55:47  <Phos> and is there an easy way to configure the ratio`?
16:55:51  <Phos> if not, no problem
16:55:51  <argoneus> Rubidium: a year
16:55:54  <argoneus> or so
16:55:55  <Phos> if, nice to have
16:56:57  <Rubidium> argoneus: for example Debian, openstreetmaps, qemu, gcc are on oftc
16:57:16  <drac_boy> think its been hmm 7 or 8 years since the first freenode contact .. first channel ironically was a commerical linux distro thats now long gone
16:57:28  <Rubidium> argoneus:
16:58:06  <argoneus> um
16:58:10  <argoneus> but #debian exists on freenode
16:58:17  <argoneus> so does gcc
16:58:20  <argoneus> with 50+ users
16:58:24  <drac_boy> argoneus so does most distros and libs anyway
16:58:38  <LordAro> Phos: you can suggest the feature here:
16:58:46  <argoneus> anyway
16:58:51  <argoneus> can someone help me with Ai development?
16:58:55  <argoneus> I don't get one thing and it confuses me
16:59:04  <Phos> okay, i will do this, thx for the help, have a nice day
16:59:19  <LordAro> np
16:59:19  <Rubidium> argoneus: 517 for Debian and 134 for gcc on OFTC
16:59:48  <argoneus> 1222 on freenode
16:59:58  <argoneus> 126 for gcc
17:00:00  <Rubidium> e.g. ==
17:00:28  <LordAro> argoneus: what is the 'thing' ?
17:00:51  <argoneus> basically, if I declare local adj = AITileList(); it should initialize an empty tile list
17:01:02  <argoneus> then if I add a rectangle to it, it should add the respective tiles in the rectangle to it
17:01:07  <argoneus> but then if I do
17:01:16  <argoneus> foreach (i, tile in adj)
17:01:23  <argoneus> I assumed 'tile' was the ID of the tile
17:01:26  <argoneus> and 'i' was the current iteration
17:01:34  <argoneus> but if I print 'i' it prints the ID of the tile
17:01:38  <argoneus> and 'tile' prints gibberish
17:01:42  <argoneus> what's going on
17:02:01  <LordAro> damn, lists, never did understand lists properly :L
17:02:40  <LordAro> and it probably doesn't help that i've done no squirrel work in months
17:02:58  <LordAro> you're probably better off attracting the attention of Zuu
17:03:10  <argoneus> who is that?
17:03:24  <LordAro> he frequents the channel, and the forums
17:04:20  <LordAro> SuperLib, PAXLink and CluelessPLus, i think
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17:47:39  <Yexo> argoneus: an AIList (which AITileList is a subclass of) is basically a map with key=>value pairs
17:47:57  <Yexo> foreach is defined as "foreach (key, value in list)"
17:48:16  <Yexo> in a tilelist the keys are the tiles
17:49:37  <Yexo> the values should all be zero after the call to AddRectangle()
17:50:12  <argoneus> oh so it's a hash
17:50:37  <Yexo> not actually a hash, just a map
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18:20:51  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r24474 /trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt:
18:20:51  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:20:51  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 29 changes by Phreeze
18:43:41  <andythenorth> la la la
18:48:30  <andythenorth> haven't found a pleasing solution to farms yet
18:48:58  <andythenorth> I could add a farm supplies wagon to every HEQS tram?
18:49:05  <andythenorth> which doesn't refit with the other vehicles
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18:49:22  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
18:49:35  <andythenorth> then FMSP could be delivered back by the same trams that are loading cargo
18:49:37  <andythenorth> hmm
18:49:51  <andythenorth> I could also force HEQS trams to be mixed
18:49:56  <Alberth> 'lo, andy
18:50:00  <andythenorth> I would need to add more refittable subtypes
18:50:35  <andythenorth> e.g. "75t in 9 wagons, carrying cargos for FIRS Dairy Farms"
18:50:48  <andythenorth> "75t in 9 wagons, carrying cargos for FIRS Mixed Farms"
18:51:01  <andythenorth> I'd probably need to do ECS too
18:51:13  <andythenorth> "75t in 9 wagons for ECS Crop Farms"
18:51:14  <andythenorth> etc
18:51:34  <andythenorth> might as well do default farms too
18:51:46  <andythenorth> that would be about 10 or 12 combinations I think
18:51:52  <andythenorth> and there are 3 different lengths per tram
18:52:16  <Alberth> "lots of stuff for someone"
18:52:23  <andythenorth> so that's another 30 refits or so in refit menu
18:52:30  <andythenorth> maybe I should make dedicated farm trams
18:52:39  <andythenorth> and mine trams
18:52:41  <andythenorth> and forest trams
18:52:42  <andythenorth> etc
18:52:58  * andythenorth counts trams in HEQS
18:53:12  <andythenorth> there about 14 trams right now
18:53:16  <andythenorth> most would need duplicating
18:53:57  <andythenorth> I could produce one for each possible cargo combination
18:54:01  <andythenorth> hmm
18:54:07  <andythenorth> what if cargos are not equal in ratio?
18:54:38  <andythenorth> do I need to do 1:1 Milk / Livestock; 1:2 Milk / Livestock; 2:1 Milk / Livestock etc?
18:55:44  * andythenorth has a better idea
18:55:49  <andythenorth> could do them as trains
18:58:00  <andythenorth> ho
18:58:08  <andythenorth> if I do trams as a railtype
18:58:12  <andythenorth> and mining trucks as a railtype
18:58:17  <andythenorth> I can make one convertible to other
18:58:19  <andythenorth> :)
19:00:43  * andythenorth has an idea
19:00:48  <andythenorth> can we rescale the entire game?
19:02:40  <Belugas> yeah, good idea
19:02:47  <Belugas> and we'll write it in Delphi!
19:03:04  <Belugas> with an XML interface to the maps  gnegnegne!
19:03:08  <Kjetil_> and port it to windows 8!
19:03:08  <andythenorth> it's only the sprites I'm talking about :P
19:03:16  <andythenorth> don't get over-dramatic :P
19:03:25  <andythenorth> if we change the scale
19:03:28  <Belugas> htat, Kjetil_... is ... kinda stupid...
19:03:31  <andythenorth> then roads can be implemented as railtypes
19:03:33  <andythenorth> one per lane
19:03:41  <Kjetil_> Belugas: ;)
19:03:45  <Belugas> andythenorth, i'm just gooding ;)
19:04:08  <andythenorth> I don't think it would take long to redraw everything 2x larger
19:04:12  <andythenorth> or 4x larger
19:04:34  <andythenorth> only about 10 years
19:04:40  <andythenorth> but newgrf is 10 years old already right?
19:05:17  <andythenorth> we need to start thinking long term
19:05:23  <andythenorth> where might the game be in 100 years?
19:06:14  *** Biolunar [] has joined #openttd
19:06:31  <Rubidium> andythenorth: out of version numbers ;)
19:06:46  <andythenorth> what's the upper limit?
19:06:56  <Alberth> infinity - 1
19:07:39  <Rubidium> @calc (1**19)-1
19:07:39  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 0
19:07:57  <Rubidium> @calc (2**19)-1
19:07:57  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 524287
19:08:09  <Rubidium>
19:08:41  <Alberth> about 50 10K parties away :p
19:10:24  <andythenorth> Alberth: played a game recently?
19:10:54  * andythenorth considers playing some kind of FIRS game for stitch-and-bitch purposes
19:10:54  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24475 /branches/1.2/ (5 files in 4 dirs): [1.2] -Update: some documentation
19:10:58  <andythenorth> in MP
19:11:09  <Alberth> Aisleriot Solitaire, about 5 minutes ago, does that count?
19:11:12  <andythenorth> yes
19:11:14  <andythenorth> of course
19:11:46  <andythenorth> I should _probably_ do work instead
19:11:57  <andythenorth> I have lots of product tickets I want to get done
19:12:04  <andythenorth> and some customers I'd like to be happy
19:15:40  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24476 /tags/1.2.2/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Release: 1.2.2
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19:22:39  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24477 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Merge: documentation updates from 1.2.
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20:12:38  <LordAro> evenings
20:14:01  *** valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
20:16:47  <Alberth> hi hi
20:18:32  *** DDR [] has joined #openttd
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20:34:52  <LordAro> can someone moar cleverer than me take a look at this? i'm kinda stuck...
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20:40:13  <Yexo> do you have a new diff?
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20:44:26  <Yexo> LordAro: you documented that FindScript/HasBaseSet can return NULL, but GetTextFile doesn't check the return value
20:45:07  <Yexo> that might be correct (if there is a hidden precondition so those functions are not allowed to return NULL in this case), but it's probably the cause for your segfault
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20:50:15  <Eddi|zuHause> is the topic outdated?
20:50:26  *** Yexo changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.2 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only
20:50:30  <Yexo> of course not :p
20:51:09  <Kjetil_> s/1.2.2/$VERSION/
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20:57:38  <LordAro> Yexo: that'll be it, thanks
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21:00:05  <LordAro> hmm, so strecpy does not like you copying NULL into a string then :L
21:01:27  <Yexo> nope
21:01:37  <Yexo> see string.cpp:145
21:01:53  <user56257> hi ppl. i need an advice on moving to monorail. How to save orders to new trains from old? Thanx in advance.
21:02:27  <Alberth> build a new depot, build a train, copy the orders from the old one
21:02:30  <Yexo> 1) build new train first, copy orders from old train, sell old train
21:02:57  <Yexo> 2) make sure there is only a single train in the depot, sell the train, convert the depot (while the depot window stays open), build new train. The new train will have exactly the same orders as the old one
21:03:13  <user56257> after sending all trains to deports there are several trains in one depot
21:03:36  <Yexo> so use the other method :)
21:03:36  <Eddi|zuHause> then 2) won't work
21:03:39  <user56257> Yexo: will try now 1)
21:04:12  <Eddi|zuHause> there's also 3) use "universal railtype" newgrf
21:04:33  <Alberth> user56257: but copying orders is boring, I usually review the network, and start replacing/rebuilding/extending/streamlining it
21:04:38  * Kjetil_ had a patch to the old openttd code-based that would convert depots with trains in them
21:05:03  <Alberth> the trouble is convert to what :p
21:05:05  <user56257> hmm.. copying orders? how to copy?
21:05:07  <Yexo> when I play I usually never upgrade to monorail
21:05:25  <Eddi|zuHause> or 4) use vehicle NewGRFs that don't force/discourage you to convert to monorail/maglev
21:05:27  <Yexo> when a train has no orders and you click "go to" then click on another train, it'll copy the orders from that train
21:05:29  <Kjetil_> Alberth: indeed. It was hardcoded to the cheapest model of the new railtype
21:06:01  <Eddi|zuHause> user56257: when you click "go to" then don't click on a station, but click on a train
21:06:03  <user56257> Yexo: oh thanx again, will try
21:06:04  <Alberth> Kjetil_: so useful, so you had to replace all your trains twice? :)
21:07:34  <Kjetil_> Alberth: heh. Usually you only have one traintype available for the next-gen track any way
21:08:21  <Alberth> with the default set, yeah. Don't know what the other vehicle newgrfs do
21:09:01  <andythenorth> Alberth: reading your nice reply on industries...
21:09:03  <andythenorth> "I don't believe closing unserviced industries is bad in itself."
21:09:05  <andythenorth> +1 ^
21:09:22  <andythenorth> think I make a mistake with that in FIRS, for secondaries at least
21:10:09  <Alberth> you're too eager trying to please your users with every wish they have :)
21:11:10  <Alberth> user56257:
21:12:05  <andythenorth> Alberth: I'm currently playing with secondary closure off :P
21:12:12  <andythenorth> why?
21:12:26  <andythenorth> because I have an 1870-start game with slow trams, and no money
21:12:41  <andythenorth> by the time I get money, lots of secondaries will start closing in waves :P
21:13:05  <andythenorth> I'm now confident they will get replaced
21:13:29  <andythenorth> but they might break the planned chains I'm building at game start
21:14:07  <andythenorth> maybe I should just accept random chance :)
21:14:40  <andythenorth> some way of reserving industries would be nice :P
21:14:51  <andythenorth> can't think how that would be done though
21:14:58  <user56257> omg it works, but i thinks my economics will suffer due to such a huge replacing
21:15:14  <user56257> not by money, but by time
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21:19:09  <drac_boy> hi
21:19:12  <andythenorth> Alberth: did some replies (short) :)
21:19:14  <Alberth> andythenorth: just after you introduced new industries, increase the number of industries in the world
21:19:37  <andythenorth> that's the route I favour too
21:19:52  <drac_boy> btw was just wondering about that thing someone mentioned before, can you actually make the map creator check for how many A industries to B induestries?
21:20:08  <andythenorth> not currently
21:20:42  <Zuu> Hmm, so someone re-suffled the parameter orders of Graph.AyStar between version 4 and 6. The RoadPathFinder(RPF) for AI uses version 4, but the NoGo-version will have to use version 6 as there is no version 4 of AyStar for NoGo.
21:21:04  <andythenorth> hmm
21:21:19  <Zuu> So either SuperLib need to overload the RPF differently for NoGo or AI, or I need to update the RPF for AIs too to use AyStar 6.
21:21:38  <LordAro> Yexo/anyone-else-who-cares: done!
21:21:47  <LordAro> Zuu: update the road pathfinder? :P
21:21:55  <andythenorth> one other thing that can cause strange results (it's correct behaviour btw) - when I add a new type to FIRS, the relative probability of other types is then reduced
21:22:07  <andythenorth> which is correct maths, but might have unintended consequences
21:22:09  <Yexo> Zuu: after frosch123 pointed me to it I've now made your "Minimal GS" topic sticky
21:22:10  <drac_boy> mm ok just wanted to know, thanks andythenorth
21:22:17  <Zuu> Which in term means that evry AI that use RPF and overload any of the callbacks need to update their AIs too.
21:22:20  <Yexo> should be easier to find this way for new people in the future
21:22:25  <Zuu> (when they upload a new version)
21:22:58  <Zuu> Or I could make AyStar 7 that reverts the re-suffle of parameter order.
21:23:15  <Yexo> which function are you talking about?
21:23:51  <Zuu> _Cost _Estimate etc.
21:24:38  <Zuu> In v4 of AyStar the _pf_instance parameter is at the end of the function arguments. In v6 it has moved to the front and pushed back the other arguments one step.
21:25:31  <andythenorth> je vais au lit
21:25:33  <andythenorth> bonsoir
21:26:24  <Zuu> Or I could port AyStar 4 to NoGo and release it as "AyStar Classic" and use that for the NoGo RPF to keep the RPF for AI intact while also creating a nogo RPF that is compatible with it.
21:27:04  <Zuu> I don't plan to actually use any of the news in AyStar 6 vs 4 in the RPF code.
21:27:16  <Yexo> I can't find back those changes in the aystar repository
21:27:31  <Zuu> I have a diff between 4 and 6 if you are interested.
21:27:36  <Yexo> and it's way too long ago to remember about it
21:27:49  <Zuu> indeed
21:28:09  <Alberth> good night andy
21:28:18  <Zuu> some of the comments in v6 have not been changed to reflect the re-suffle of the arguments.
21:28:56  <frosch123> night
21:29:00  <Alberth> and good night to all
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21:29:20  <Yexo> Zuu: as far as I can see the change was: -"Provide callback functions" +"Provide instance that has functions"
21:29:36  <Yexo> hmm, sorry
21:29:54  <Yexo> not exactly, but it's not simply shuffling the parameters
21:30:05  <Yexo> it's replacing 4 parameters by 1
21:30:46  <Yexo> nvm, I finally get it
21:30:49  <Yexo> you're right of course
21:31:20  <Zuu> It contains some internal changes too, but the biggest problem is the change in the interface.
21:31:36  <Yexo> I do however think that the method used by A* 6 is better, as you should now be able to pass member functions instead of only static functions
21:31:47  <Yexo> or at least, that seems to be the intend of the changes
21:32:23  <Zuu> The solution that probably give least bad effects is to release "AyStar 4 for NoGo" and build the NoGo port of the RPF on that one creating a NoGo RPF that is completely compatible with the AI RPF without touching the AI RPF.
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21:33:07  <Yexo> that depends, if there are other updates too now might be a good time to release an updated AI RPF (with the interface changes)
21:33:34  <Yexo> on the other hand: are there any interface changes needed for an updated RPF?
21:33:34  <Zuu> I don't have any AI RPF changes that I wish to include in the core.
21:34:27  <Zuu> I do have some extensions offered in SuperLib, but I also know that other AI authors have derived their own extensions with the RPF as base.
21:35:56  <Yexo> is it that big a deal to ask AI authors to update a few lines of code?
21:36:13  <Yexo> it's not that many people
21:36:57  * LordAro raises his hand
21:37:01  <LordAro> :)
21:37:11  <Zuu> Its not a big job to ask them, but those who don't read the question may spend time hunting strange bugs until they realize that the bug is caused by an API change.
21:37:25  <Zuu> It took me some time to figure it out between AyStar 4 and 6.
21:38:58  <Yexo> still I think now would be a good time to get everyone's code based on the same version again and make A* 4 really obsolete
21:41:35  <Zuu> I agree that it is a choise that have an impact here. If we move RPF to A* 6 for AI and NoGo, anyone who uploads an AI after that will be forced to update his code to A* 6.
21:42:58  <Zuu> If you derive your own RPF based on the Bananas RPF, you typically override _Cost and _Neighbours, so there would be about 10 AIs or more that would be forced to update.
21:43:01  <Yexo> oh, I didn't realize that RPF as on bananas still uses A* v4
21:44:40  <Yexo> still AIs are not forced to update to a newer RPF
21:45:27  <Zuu> Of course they could copy RPF 3 from their hard drive and include in their AI in place of the bananas RPF if they refuse to use the new RPF 4.
21:45:47  <Zuu> But they cannot use an old RPF as dependency through the banans web interface.
21:45:58  <Yexo> :(
21:46:04  <Yexo> that's bad for libraries
21:46:10  <Zuu> Indeed
21:46:16  <Yexo> TrueBrain: ^^ is that something that would be easy to fix?
21:47:05  <Zuu> TrueBrain: To clarify, allow people to select old versions of a library as dependency
21:48:17  <Zuu> If it would be easy for them to just stay at v3, it would not be that bad to upload a v4 with a different interface.
21:49:24  <Zuu> I guess allowing old versions itself is not that hard to do, but the dependency list will grow much longer :-)
21:58:39  <Zuu> While at content distribution, good work LordAro with the text file patches :-)
21:59:01  <LordAro> thanks :)
22:00:23  <LordAro> apart from the guidance from Yexo an hour or 2 ago, i did this one pretty much all by myself :)
22:02:17  <Zuu> :-)
22:12:11  <drac_boy> I know its a crazy idea but I was kinda just thinking about that new aircraft distance thing and wondering, couldn't it also happen to certain rail locomotives too? (counting depot and station altogether as a refuel point as well)
22:12:17  <Zuu> Yexo: If it cannot be changed (easily) so that AIs can pick the old RPF, would you still recommend updating the AI RPF to A* 6? Or is it in that case better to make a NoGo RPF for A*4 and port A*4 to NoGo?
22:13:47  <Zuu> For me it is about 15 lines of code (at various places over three files) that change on that decision, so I'm happy to pick a decision and then go with it and not jump back and fourth.
22:15:10  <Yexo> given that the amount of codechanges needed is so small, I'd go for A*6 everywhere and an updated RPF for both
22:15:31  <Yexo> but both ways are fine: you decide, you're doing the code anyway :p
22:18:40  <michi_cc> drac_boy: The actual travel distance for a rail vehicle is totally arbitrary, quite in contrast to aircraft.
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22:19:30  <Zuu> A*6 is more future safe for me, but impose work on others :-)
22:19:50  <drac_boy> michi_cc put it one way: a small shunter with 30 gallons of fuel onboard can not imagine going a long distance without needing to stop? :)
22:20:22  <Yexo> LordAro: if nobody does it before then (maybe me) I'll make sure to do a proper review/commit of FS#5236 at last this sunday
22:20:42  <LordAro> kk, thanks :D
22:20:57  <Yexo> Zuu: given the amount of other is so small I wouldn't care too much about that
22:21:29  <michi_cc> But how are you going to know if it is going a long distance or not? There might be a short path of e.g. 5 tiles or whatever, but depending on signal states the chosen path might also be 100 long.
22:22:09  <drac_boy> michi_cc how do boats and now planes tell you you can't possibly get to the next point in schedule anyway?
22:22:39  <drac_boy> just asking anyhow, its not like I actually want this feature now
22:24:35  <michi_cc> The boat thing isn't a good example as it is only in there because of pathfinder implementation limitations. Aircraft in OTTD always travel on a fixed, deterministic path. No kind of obstacle, other vehicle or anything can change that, so (ignoring the waiting loops at the destination airport) the travel distance is fixed.
22:24:58  * Zuu nocies that the ball is probably on him to update FS#5230 for next review. (Its a patch that is a pre-step before my main patch that fix/implement break-on-log for NoGo)
22:26:12  <Yexo> cool :)
22:26:34  <Yexo> ping me this weekend and I'll look at it
22:27:15  <Zuu> It is actually quite neat (the main patch). It adds the ability for a game to progress while an AI or NoGo is paused.
22:27:31  <Yexo> Zuu: I've added you as manager for
22:27:47  <Yexo> if you want to, you can commit the changes required to use A*6
22:28:07  <Yexo> for now: good night
22:28:08  <Zuu> thanks
22:28:12  <Zuu> and good night
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23:02:16  <Terkhen> good night
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23:20:13  <drac_boy> hi drush
23:20:33  <drush> hi drac_boy
23:21:17  <drush> I think the port will need some patches, configure misses some include dirs, 100% sure of it
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23:24:35  <drac_boy> drush...port?
23:24:54  <drush> the ps3 port
23:27:10  <drac_boy> oh right
23:27:45  <planetmaker> lol. That's likely, drush
23:27:56  <planetmaker> Please feel free and encouraged to supply needed patches
23:28:03  <planetmaker> There's no dev who can maintain or test that
23:28:31  <drush> planetmaker that's why I mailed asking about benchmarking
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23:28:59  <drush> because after the building is done I'd definitely like to establish a set of CFLAGS that make the finest build
23:29:05  <planetmaker> ah. I recall that mail
23:29:08  <drush> for that particular platform
23:29:37  <planetmaker> finest = fastest? smallest memory? smallest file size? combination?
23:30:04  <drush> for a gaming console, fastest
23:30:18  <drush> unless there will be popular demand for a smaller memory footprint
23:30:43  <planetmaker> I have an openttd server which crashed on me with oom on a 256MB VM
23:30:46  <drush> ps3 was designed for multitasking
23:31:00  <drush> was not*
23:31:36  <drush> as for the 256MB RAM issue,
23:31:53  <drush> I think it's possible to allocate a temporary swap in gameos
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23:32:34  <drush> multiMAN (backup manager) allocates 2GB of hdd for some reason and treats it as a separate drive, I take that as a hint
23:32:41  <planetmaker> anyway... I guess you have to test the speed. And yes, we definitely ARE interested in such comparisons
23:33:05  <drush> glad to know
23:33:25  <planetmaker> a good place to do / discuss so would be the development section in our forums
23:34:14  <planetmaker>
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23:34:53  <drush> planetmaker I've yet to see if ottd runs in ps3linux
23:35:31  <drush> if it runs there (212 MB RAM due to being in a vm, also no hardware GL), it will run in gameos
23:35:59  <planetmaker> Needed RAM is mostly defined by the map size. So... playing small will make a difference
23:36:40  <drush> afaik vanilla ottd has max map of 2Kx2K?
23:39:38  <planetmaker> yes
23:39:44  <planetmaker> btw...
23:39:51  *** Supercheese [~chatzilla@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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23:44:45  <planetmaker> anyway... good night
23:51:32  <drush> goodnight
23:51:59  <drush> also, if this reaches your scrollback, I just tried openttd with default options on my corei7,
23:52:33  <drush> and starting a 2Kx2K map makes the exe use 57.1MB of memory
23:53:33  <drush> memory peaked to 110MB during autosave

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