Log for #openttd on 25th August 2012:
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04:10:01  <unknowz> hi and good night everyone (here gmt-3, so its night =] )
04:10:46  <unknowz> i would like to know if there is a list of IA who works in the new stable version. or can you'll tell me a good one!?
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07:16:24  <Terkhen> good morning
07:16:43  <Supercheese> Salve
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07:30:40  <andythenorth> lo
07:32:40  <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
07:32:49  <andythenorth> bonjour Terkhen
07:33:43  <andythenorth> @seen Zuu
07:33:43  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 9 hours, 6 minutes, and 45 seconds ago: <Zuu> Night
07:38:18  <andythenorth> Terkhen: do you like Squirrel? :D
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07:38:57  <Wolf01> morning o/
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08:00:40  <andythenorth> stinky stinky svn
08:01:06  <andythenorth> how do I do a revert all
08:02:01  <andythenorth> fixed :P
08:02:31  <Terkhen> andythenorth: nope
08:02:38  <Terkhen> I have only checked it a bit, though
08:02:43  <Terkhen> why?
08:03:30  <andythenorth> GS ideas :D
08:04:10  * Terkhen plans to code some C++ for a change
08:04:46  <andythenorth> \o/
08:07:13  <Supercheese> Hmmm, how does OTTD color reserved tracks? Based on the track_overlay?
08:07:23  <Supercheese> well, not "color" but, "darken", rather
08:12:24  <Terkhen> andythenorth: <--- why do you think that this is a bug?
08:13:22  <andythenorth> because it has stupid gameplay effects
08:13:29  <Terkhen> what effects?
08:13:35  <Terkhen> the cost?
08:13:38  <andythenorth> yes
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08:14:14  <andythenorth> and it makes no sense except wrt realism
08:14:27  <andythenorth> or just "that's how the code is already"
08:14:28  <Terkhen> I would understand for the locks case, but you don't strictly need to overbuild the river with canals to move ships through it
08:15:58  <andythenorth> more of an accident usually
08:16:06  <andythenorth> let me test a few things
08:16:09  <Terkhen> k
08:18:19  <andythenorth> Terkhen: the main issue is that it makes building locks on a river insanely expensive
08:18:25  <andythenorth> which is maybe very realistic and all
08:18:42  <andythenorth> but it's silly for gameplay, and quite unexpected when it takes all your money away
08:21:25  <Wolf01> I'm with andy on this problem
08:21:52  <andythenorth> additionally I think canals should just be cheaper, for early gameplay
08:22:03  <andythenorth> but that's a separate issue (and I can solve some of it in newgrf)
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08:25:23  <Terkhen> andythenorth: WRT to default costs, IMO many of them do not make much sense, but unless we want to change costs in old savegames the only way to change them is via NewGRFs
08:25:48  <Terkhen> I'm curious about the building canals over rivers issue because I never encountered it while using ships, that's why I don't see the problem :P
08:30:04  <andythenorth> the locks are the main place you'll encounter it
08:30:25  <andythenorth> a lock on river costs ~4x more than not on river
08:30:44  <andythenorth> which might be justifiable wrt reality or state of codebase
08:30:56  <andythenorth> but it's pointless extra detail for gameplay
08:31:00  <Supercheese> My ships tend to throw the "ship is lost" error a lot on rivers
08:31:10  <andythenorth> mine too
08:31:10  <Supercheese> despite them finding the way fine...
08:31:20  <andythenorth> mine get lost :P
08:31:26  <andythenorth> or can't turn around
08:31:31  <bolli> Surely, In reality they cost a lot more to build on a river?
08:31:43  <andythenorth> and that's useful because? :P
08:31:44  <bolli> because you have to worry about diverting water flow etc
08:31:49  <andythenorth> who gives a crap :D
08:32:04  <andythenorth> add it to the list of problems wrt reality ;)
08:32:10  <andythenorth> (1) the world is not made of pixels
08:32:24  <andythenorth> * everyone knows that the world is made of voxels
08:32:40  <andythenorth> Todo: implement OpenTTD in voxels
08:33:34  <Terkhen> andythenorth: as I said, I agree on the lock case
08:33:41  <Terkhen> I'm asking about the general case
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08:33:46  <Terkhen> good morning Alberth
08:33:57  <andythenorth> Terkhen: general case I don't have such strong feelings about ;)
08:34:04  <andythenorth> it's just odd
08:34:11  <Alberth> moin Terkhen, andythenorth
08:34:11  <andythenorth> canal suddenly gets very much more expensive
08:34:18  <andythenorth> unexpected when building ;)
08:34:20  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
08:35:03  <bolli> anyway, Bye...
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08:37:10  * andythenorth was nearly very grumpy there
08:37:16  <andythenorth> who gives a fuck about realism :P :)
08:38:05  <Terkhen> it's just that I don't see that happening very frequently
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08:45:08  <Supercheese> All sea-level water is classified as "ocean", yes?
08:46:23  <Rubidium> no
08:46:37  <Supercheese> Small bodies of sea-level water can be "lakes"?
08:46:52  <Supercheese> or sea-level canals
08:46:56  <Supercheese> naturally would be canals
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08:50:51  <andythenorth> it's interesting with canal / ocean speed fraction in FISH 2
08:51:03  <Supercheese> Hence my interest  ;)
08:51:29  <andythenorth> some maps have lots of small bits of ocean, with useful rivers / or can be connected by canals
08:51:39  <andythenorth> but then the river boats are inefficient on those routes
08:51:58  <Supercheese> The new ships' dependency on [un]loaded state for speed means they travel faster than the purchase window speed when unloaded
08:52:12  <Supercheese> IIRC you have a factor of 1.2 or so for some ships when unloaded
08:52:43  <Supercheese> too lazy to pull up yer config file :P
08:53:00  <Alberth> Supercheese: I am to blame for that :)
08:53:30  <Supercheese> It is an excellent feature; I thank you
08:53:40  <Alberth> it seemed nice to have them travel a bit faster when unloaded
08:54:02  <Alberth> Supercheese: andy did all the work, I just made the suggestion
08:54:07  <Supercheese> Indeed, just a tad awkward to have the purchase menu speed be somewhere between loaded and unloaded, but a minor gripe
08:54:16  <Supercheese> well, then let the "you" be a general one ;)
08:54:48  <Supercheese> Of course the best feature is autorefit
08:55:34  <Supercheese> no more having to send them to a depot to pick up food from the fishing harbor
08:55:41  <Supercheese> a depot to refit*
08:56:18  <Terkhen> autorefit is awesome :)
08:56:25  <Supercheese> :D
08:57:09  <Supercheese> Darn, no UKRS wagons can carry both bauxite and metal (in 1916, at least)
08:57:45  <Supercheese> doubtful any set would have that universal of a wagon, though
09:01:03  <Eddi|zuHause> the earöy DBSet wagons should have that
09:01:17  <Supercheese> terrible top speed though, I'd bet
09:01:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
09:01:56  <Supercheese> I'll just have to run separate trains
09:02:03  <Supercheese> could be worse :P
09:04:01  <Supercheese> Whoah, since when can you build a signal on a tile occupied by a train?
09:04:04  <Supercheese> neato
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09:11:57  <Terkhen> since a few months ago IIRC
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09:12:49  <Supercheese> very cool; but I am now needing sleep
09:12:56  <Supercheese> valete omnes
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09:42:20  <SquireJames> Gutenmorgen
09:42:47  <SquireJames> Yummy breakfast of boiled eggs. Finally learned how to reliably cook them
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09:59:22  <Eddi|zuHause> "i already boiled these eggs for half an hour, and they won't go soft!"?
09:59:32  <BenTrein> :D
10:04:31  <Rubidium> they might still be soft
10:04:42  <Rubidium> well, or hard and get soft again when removing them
10:07:42  <Rubidium> (but then you haven't boiled it in water at sea level pressure)
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10:35:01  <andythenorth> my laptop died :(
10:35:10  <andythenorth> think it's eaten it's SATA bus somehow
10:35:17  <andythenorth> meh
10:35:22  <andythenorth> on the plus side
10:35:25  <andythenorth> faster laptop soon
10:36:00  <andythenorth> on the minus side, lost some work :P
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10:37:04  <Terkhen> :(
10:37:14  <Terkhen> hi frosch123
10:37:37  <frosch123> moin terkhen :)
10:37:46  <andythenorth> on the plus side, put the drive in my wife's laptop, everything works
10:37:57  <andythenorth> on the minus side, had to go and buy screwdrivers
10:38:11  * andythenorth is thinking up plus and minus examples :P
10:38:31  <andythenorth> on the plus side, can collect new laptop in one hour
10:38:46  <andythenorth> on the minus side, I have to go to PC World :P
10:40:07  <andythenorth> bonjour frosch123
10:40:20  <andythenorth> anyway, so GS idea:
10:40:25  <andythenorth> "Power Grid"
10:41:04  <andythenorth> it's 1905
10:41:07  <andythenorth> The following five cities want to embrace electricity [names]
10:42:00  <andythenorth> You have an opportunity to prove yourself as a tycoon in the brave new world of electricity supply
10:42:09  <andythenorth> You will need to build Power Stations for each city, and transport coal to them
10:42:42  <andythenorth> For bronze, build all 5 power stations and transport 1,000t per month to them by 1940
10:42:55  <andythenorth> For silver, same bronze, but transport 2,000t per month
10:43:10  <andythenorth> For gold, complete the silver goal by 1930
10:43:14  <andythenorth> or such
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10:48:57  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds good for a start
10:49:40  <Eddi|zuHause> but how do you detect what constitutes a power station, with NewGRFs and all?
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10:51:08  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: and that is the interesting question
10:51:33  <andythenorth> previously trying to figure out GS / newgrf has just caused me to be pissed off :)
10:51:43  <andythenorth> but now I have actually played GS and read some code :)
10:51:49  <andythenorth> and can think up cases
10:52:08  <andythenorth> I think this would be a GS tied to certain newgrfs
10:52:16  <andythenorth> I think the author has to maintain a table of IDs
10:52:19  <andythenorth> is all
10:52:21  <andythenorth> for now
10:52:34  <andythenorth> if we see a pattern for what GS needs, we can provide it in newgrf
10:52:52  * andythenorth has to go get new laptop :P
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10:52:53  <andythenorth> biab
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10:55:01  <Terkhen> andy's old power plant obsession
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11:48:52  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: find the industry that produces batteries :p
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12:06:31  <bolli> Sorry, but i've got another question...
12:06:50  <bolli> Is there a max sprite size for the depots?
12:07:12  <bolli> I have a 2 car train that looks fine in the depot, however it becomes pushed up together in the depot...
12:12:47  <Alberth> don't be sorry for asking a question
12:13:17  <bolli> ok :). I just don't like flooding places with beginner questions
12:14:03  <Alberth> as for the question itself, it does not make sense to me: "...looks fine in the depot" but " ...becomes pushed up together in the depot"
12:14:15  <Eddi|zuHause> bolli: there's a "compression" from 32px to 28px in depots, which you can turn off by a misc flag in your grf
12:14:41  <bolli> ah thanks :)
12:14:42  <Alberth> but I am the wrong person to answer it, if it is about sprites
12:14:56  <bolli> Any idea what the flag is?
12:15:07  <Eddi|zuHause> the 32px depot flag :)
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12:17:53  <Eddi|zuHause> bolli: if you use nml, it's "train_width_32_px"
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12:20:09  <Eddi|zuHause> bolli1:[25.08.2012 13:43] <Eddi|zuHause> bolli: if you use nml, it's "train_width_32_px"
12:21:13  <bolli1> so that goes in the misc_flags bitmask?
12:21:33  <Eddi|zuHause> no need to handle bitmasks in nml
12:21:46  <Eddi|zuHause> simply "train_width_32_px = 1;"
12:21:48  <SquireJames> Does anyone have a binary laying around that supports NML, has daylength settings and cargodist?
12:21:52  <Eddi|zuHause> anywhere in your GRF
12:22:22  <bolli1> aha
12:22:26  <bolli1> thanks very much :)
12:22:31  <Eddi|zuHause> SquireJames: i think you ask a very wrong question
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12:23:25  <SquireJames> How so?
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12:23:32  <andythenorth> meh
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12:23:41  <andythenorth> my old OS won't boot this laptop
12:23:56  <Eddi|zuHause> SquireJames: OpenTTD does not "support NML". it never comes in contact with it
12:24:10  <andythenorth> Snow Leopard is only two major versions behind, what's the big deal :P
12:24:31  <Eddi|zuHause> SquireJames: same way a car never comes in contact with "raw oil"
12:24:32  <SquireJames> Alright, well a version that supports GRF coded in it
12:24:41  <Alberth> andythenorth: Apple is not making sales to you, I'd guess
12:24:57  <SquireJames> For example, I can't run the latest UKRS2 and FIRS on Chills Patchpack
12:25:03  <SquireJames> Which is a bummer
12:25:06  <Eddi|zuHause> SquireJames: you possibly mean "GRF v8"/"Container v32"
12:25:41  <Eddi|zuHause> SquireJames: in that case, there are CargoDist builds, but you have to patch in daylength by yourself
12:26:19  <Alberth> or start a squire patchpack :p
12:26:30  <andythenorth> block level copy of my SSD is *way* faster than incremental
12:26:31  * andythenorth should probably go hang out in #upgradinglaptopstoday
12:26:42  <andythenorth> there will be complaining today
12:26:55  <andythenorth> some of my tools will be broken :(
12:26:56  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, gtg
12:27:03  <Alberth> bye Eddi|zuHause
12:27:13  <andythenorth> I face a world of python 2.4 pain too I think :P
12:27:23  <Alberth> ouch :(
12:27:28  <SquireJames> Well Albert, i'd LOVE to :)
12:27:46  <SquireJames> But neither TortoiseSVN nor the alternative seem to like me very much
12:28:24  <SquireJames> I think i;ve compiled 1 successful build myself, all others seem to fail, which I am figuring is because I am trying to weld two incompatible patches together
12:28:26  <Alberth> you don't want to use SVN tools in the first place
12:28:42  <SquireJames> So short of learning code and finding out why they won't mesh, I'm a bit stuck
12:29:19  <Alberth> yeah, you have to understand the code for patching
12:29:42  <SquireJames> I guess an alternative is to get the CargoDist patch, and then find out which bit of the regular code alters daylength
12:29:56  <SquireJames> and set it to a fixed number, say daylength 3 (which works well enough for me)
12:30:13  <SquireJames> Not as flexible as properly combining the patches, but for a quick and dirty fix, it works
12:30:46  <Alberth> I never tried doing much patching of outdated version
12:31:30  <SquireJames> I guess my issue is that I find the game goes too fast for me, and for UKRS2 to update liveries properly :)
12:31:58  <andythenorth> meh
12:32:03  <andythenorth> maybe 2 hours to clone this SSD
12:32:15  * andythenorth should play a game of MP NoCargoGoal whilst waiting
12:32:25  <andythenorth> at least the keyboard on this one isn't rubbish
12:35:33  <andythenorth> so GS + newgrf industry....
12:35:34  <Alberth> I am somewhat wondering whether you could solve this in the newgrf domain, by stretching the model life time by factor 3 or so
12:35:58  <andythenorth> Alberth: I don't see why just faking the date wouldn't work :P
12:36:07  * andythenorth assumes there's a date function somewhere
12:36:10  <andythenorth> just tell it to lie
12:36:31  <Alberth> it might
12:36:34  <andythenorth> instead of "return date", use "return date / 4" :P
12:36:44  <andythenorth> "return date / some factor"
12:36:49  <andythenorth> same effect
12:37:00  <Alberth> that won't do, there is a lot of "daily" or "monthly" stuff going around
12:37:05  <SquireJames> Allow me to explain :)
12:37:25  <SquireJames> UKRS2 locos change livery to all-over black from 1940-1946
12:37:33  <andythenorth> Alberth: only lie to newgrf
12:37:41  <andythenorth> I doubt it's that simple
12:37:51  <andythenorth> lots of date stuff is action 0 stuff I guess
12:37:56  <SquireJames> It seems Pikka uses a random chance thingy that every time a train goes into a depot during this time, it might repaint
12:38:15  <Alberth> andythenorth: 8/9 times a month deliveries breaks already
12:38:18  <SquireJames> However, the game goes so fast that hardly any of my locomotives are repainted by the time 1946 wings around
12:38:46  <andythenorth> just define that months are ~60 days long :P
12:39:19  * andythenorth wonders if nml could do the lying
12:39:24  <andythenorth> for newgrfs at least
12:39:43  <Alberth> SquireJames: if you have true day-length, that would still be the case
12:39:43  <andythenorth> it must be parsing/lexing dates
12:40:21  <andythenorth> you'd just have to wait longer to get annoyed by it :P
12:40:51  <SquireJames> Well, I set my repair intervals to half the period, but with twice the daylength
12:41:07  <andythenorth> sounds very complicated
12:41:16  <SquireJames> ergo, they visit the depots the same number of times, but the timescale between 1940 and 1946 is twice as long
12:41:18  <andythenorth> if you want train sets, have you tried Hornby? :)
12:41:25  <Alberth> half the period would be sufficient, wouldn't it?
12:41:43  <SquireJames> Not really, then they are visiting the depot all the time
12:42:11  <andythenorth> SquireJames: just decompile the grf and change it?
12:42:33  <SquireJames> Why? 1940 - 1946 for wartime black is correct
12:42:47  <andythenorth> I don't understand the issue in that case :)
12:42:50  <andythenorth> what's the issue? :)
12:42:54  <SquireJames> Alright let me try again
12:43:20  <SquireJames> The game runs too quickly, so trains do not visit the depot frequently enough for them all (or the majority) to be painted in time
12:43:38  <SquireJames> this also occurs for other livery changes, but this is the main on since it's the shortest time period
12:44:04  <andythenorth> so 6 years is ~80 mis
12:44:05  <SquireJames> If I increase the frequency, trains are visiting depots too much, which causes routing issues etc
12:44:06  <andythenorth> mins *
12:44:25  <andythenorth> so you want those 6 years to take ~240 mins or so?
12:44:32  <SquireJames> Yes
12:44:42  <andythenorth> with train speed etc unaffected
12:44:48  <andythenorth> or just everything runs slower?
12:44:52  <SquireJames> So that the trains can visit depots at the same frequency, but they have twice the time to do so, roughly
12:45:09  <andythenorth> interesting
12:45:12  <Alberth> weird day length
12:45:16  <andythenorth> you'd make 3x the money in that time
12:45:16  <SquireJames> Well industry and town passenger generation is unimportant, i'm happy either way
12:45:37  <andythenorth> SquireJames: you should try eddi's awesome day length patch
12:45:48  <andythenorth> at the end of each year, it simply resets the date n times
12:45:53  <andythenorth> so if you have 3:1
12:45:59  <andythenorth> you'd get 1940 3 three times
12:46:02  <SquireJames> Well I am running a daylength patch currently, unsure which one
12:46:21  <andythenorth> don't blame eddi for the stupidity of the idea, it was my mine, but he patched for it
12:46:21  <SquireJames> but I find my way of playing the game benefits greatly from CargoDist
12:46:43  <andythenorth> the patch makes vehicle availability a bit interesting iirc
12:48:01  <SquireJames> So you see my quandry. CargoDist makes the game interesting, but it goes too quick. Daylength slows it down nicely, but I don't get the benefits of CargoDist
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12:49:45  <andythenorth> I'd just play NoCargoGoal for 20 years and stop worrying about this stuff :)
12:49:57  <andythenorth> I find that worrying about the game takes the fun away :
12:50:44  <andythenorth> cargo routing, economy, payment models, day length etc are all just a bit boring to fix
12:51:04  <andythenorth> same for road types, new airports, new map etc
12:51:24  <andythenorth> nobody is interested enough in these problems, they're kind of tedious :D
12:51:44  <andythenorth> otoh, configurable vehicle smoke for newgrfs is *very* important ;)
12:52:02  <andythenorth> and also writing more GS
12:53:09  * andythenorth wonders how dope wars could be implemented in openttd
12:53:36  <andythenorth>
12:53:40  <TrueBrain> you going there? really? :P
12:54:26  <SquireJames> well my GS is coming along nicely. Would work better with longer daylengths though :P
12:54:38  <Kjetil> Let's implement syndicate instead, so you can blow up your oponents stations
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12:55:00  <SquireJames> persuadutron their passengers :)
12:55:28  <Kjetil> :D
12:55:59  <andythenorth> Dope Wars is probably too turn-based for a GS :P
12:56:08  * andythenorth ponders
12:56:12  <TrueBrain> selling dope by trains
12:56:14  <TrueBrain> that would be new :)
12:56:22  <andythenorth> you delivered 3,000t of Cocaine
12:56:28  <andythenorth> everyone is dead
12:56:29  <TrueBrain> hidden in coal
12:56:36  <SquireJames> New cargo for the subtropical climate :P
12:56:45  <andythenorth> via submarine
12:56:53  <Kjetil> So if you deliver goods at town grows, if you deliver dope the town shrinks ?
12:56:54  <andythenorth> 20% of my SSD copied :(
12:56:59  <andythenorth> Kjetil: valid
12:57:01  <andythenorth> :P
12:57:23  <SquireJames> To that same end, Soylent Green factories...
12:57:24  <andythenorth> construction camp: requires PAX, food, women, hard licquour, drugs
12:57:25  <andythenorth> :P
12:57:32  <Kjetil> So you can finally be rid of those annoying towns in the middle of the transmap railway
12:57:39  <andythenorth> soylent green is my new godwin's law on this channel
12:57:41  <andythenorth> bye
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12:59:05  <SquireJames> So, killing people with drugs = okay, killing people for food = bad. Okay glad we've got your morale compass sorted...
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13:10:43  <SquireJames> Gone all quiet hasn;t it
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13:32:28  <frosch123> question of the day:
13:32:36  <frosch123> ottd error boxes are red
13:32:52  <frosch123> according to what rules are the caption or the text inside the box white or yellow?
13:33:13  <frosch123> (i think there exist all 4 combinations of yellow/white caption/text)
13:33:50  <frosch123> (some confirmation boxes like "exit game" also follow this colour scheme)
13:34:18  <andythenorth> the rules are 'whoever wrote that code chose'? :P
13:34:28  <andythenorth> hmm
13:34:31  <andythenorth> let's see
13:34:50  <andythenorth> also I need to know if ottd works in OS X 10.7 anyway :(
13:35:57  *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@] has quit [Quit: DANGER is OFFLINE DANGER]
13:36:35  <FLHerne> andythenorth: People keep reporting bugs with it, so it must work to some extent :P
13:36:43  <frosch123> the rule is: don't go fullscreen or something like that
13:36:46  <andythenorth> I suspect forthcoming sadness :(
13:36:52  <andythenorth> I rely on fullscreen
13:37:07  <FLHerne> Someone (r) should make OTTD GPU-accelerated :P
13:37:18  * FLHerne just got a new one ;-)
13:37:29  <frosch123> multiple people already succeeded in making ottd cpu-decelerated
13:37:42  <frosch123> *gpu-decelerated
13:37:43  <frosch123> dammit
13:39:21  <FLHerne> :D
13:40:47  <SquireJames> GPU decelerated is the Mac version :P where every upgrade makes it gradually go slower
13:41:18  <andythenorth> meh
13:41:28  <SquireJames> However, deceleration does not exist as an action. My physics teacher would have a fit hearing you say that :P
13:41:31  <andythenorth> can't get to my OpenTTD stuff right now
13:41:43  <andythenorth> no permissions :(
13:42:09  <SquireJames> I remember back during the bad old days of my GCSEs how many times we got that beaten into our heads
13:42:19  <glx> andythenorth: on 10.7 ?
13:42:35  <andythenorth> glx: currently yes
13:42:57  <glx> so the OS doesn't want you to try openttd ?
13:43:10  <andythenorth> no
13:43:43  <andythenorth> mostly the issue is I don't have any base sets
13:44:02  <andythenorth> they're in a user dir on my previous HD
13:44:09  <andythenorth> and I don't have permissions to read that
13:44:43  <glx> haha
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13:47:55  <Rubidium> andythenorth: if only someone coded a feature to automatically give the ability to download the base sets when they are missing
13:49:48  <andythenorth> if only :|
13:49:57  <andythenorth> *if only it worked with my OS :P
13:50:35  <andythenorth> I suspect that Big Brother is going to make me upgrade this disk straight from 10.6.8 to to 10.8
13:50:43  <andythenorth> does OpenTTD work at all in 10.8?
13:51:08  <Rubidium> it works on 10.10
13:51:53  <andythenorth> and how about on OS X :P
13:52:25  * andythenorth stares into a future that contains a Windows installation
13:52:36  <andythenorth> which is a horrible though
13:52:38  <andythenorth> t
13:52:41  <frosch123> andythenorth: why? ottd also fails on windows :p
13:52:47  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Linux! :D
13:52:47  <BenTrein> andythenorth - there's no need to fall that deep! Linux does very well.
13:52:55  <BenTrein> I've not had a crash in a long long time.
13:53:13  <andythenorth> is there a linux distro that makes sense yet?
13:53:19  <BenTrein> Lots!
13:53:25  * FLHerne is a Linux Mint KDE fan :-)
13:53:27  <BenTrein> Ubuntu, Fedora, Mint, Suse...
13:53:37  <andythenorth> I see them various distress used by other people and they're completely confusing
13:53:45  <andythenorth> distros / distress /s
13:53:51  <BenTrein> But to me a Mac is completely confusing.
13:53:57  <BenTrein> It is all about what you're used to.
13:54:00  <FLHerne> BenTrein: Same :P
13:54:02  <andythenorth> and to me swahili is confusing
13:54:03  <frosch123> andythenorth: if you want others to decide what you use, you should stick with osx :p
13:54:16  <BenTrein> Sure , there's a learning curve. Sure, you have to learn a couple of things. Is that so bad?
13:54:21  <andythenorth> yes
13:54:31  <planetmaker> for me the future will hold at least one linux install more. Hopefully next week :-)
13:54:39  <andythenorth> I have zero interest in learning new computer things
13:54:49  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Linux has more in common with OSX than Windows does, anyway :P
13:54:50  <BenTrein> lol
13:54:56  <BenTrein> Indeed.
13:55:12  <FLHerne> Also, it's easier to configure it to behave in an OSX-like way :-)
13:55:20  <frosch123> BenTrein: if andy has options, he changes his opinion twice a day... so he won't be able to do anything but install all distros in alternating order
13:55:21  <planetmaker> yes, linux and osx have loads of things in common. If you like the command line, andy, linux is your friend
13:55:38  <andythenorth> I like not having to think about computer crap :P
13:55:52  <BenTrein> I don't think about computer crap anymore.
13:56:09  <Alberth> playing openttd is much more interesting!
13:56:16  <BenTrein> Of course I did in the beginning of using Linux. But I now know what to do and how to.
13:56:26  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Get a generally stable distro with decent default settings then :P
13:56:42  <andythenorth> ah
13:56:43  <frosch123> BenTrein: like "never install gnome 3"? :p
13:56:54  <andythenorth> all I need is a distro in a virtual appliance or such
13:56:57  <BenTrein> I absolutely LOVE Gnome 3
13:56:59  <BenTrein> :)
13:57:00  <andythenorth> I don't want any window manager crap
13:57:02  <FLHerne> frosch123: :D . Also Unity :P
13:57:14  <andythenorth> all window managers are shocking, the linux ones nearly as bad as Windows
13:57:29  <andythenorth> all that zooming liquid blobby crap everywhere
13:57:34  <frosch123> andythenorth: use a tiling wm :)
13:57:43  <andythenorth> 'omg we can shake the window when you move it'
13:57:48  <andythenorth> that can piss off :P
13:57:51  <frosch123> tiling wm are impressive, i'm just too stupid to use one
13:58:00  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Openbox can work as a window manager for most DEs :P
13:58:06  <andythenorth> I just need an appliance to run opened I think
13:58:10  <andythenorth> openttd *
13:58:35  <andythenorth> then I run it as a VM, with shared dir to my main OS
13:58:39  * FLHerne likes wobbly, semi-transparent, sliding stuff though :P
13:58:43  <BenTrein> Get it working on your Raspberry Pi and you're good to go, I guess. :D
13:58:44  <frosch123> andy needs a vendor-locked-in device, which allows him to do nothing but make newgrfs :p
13:58:57  <frosch123> an "opad"
13:59:21  <andythenorth> lock down an android thing
13:59:27  <andythenorth> I saw a 7" tablet yesterday
13:59:28  <frosch123> anyone here wants to step up as "opad" producer?
13:59:29  <andythenorth> that's pointless
13:59:47  <frosch123> opad would be 23" tablet
13:59:52  <andythenorth> winner
13:59:59  <andythenorth> 800x600 res though?
14:00:05  <frosch123> you can put it on the wall while not using it
14:00:40  <andythenorth> can we solve GS and newgrf please [while I am waiting to get a usable OS]
14:00:43  <frosch123> what picture on the wall would be more impressive than a moving railnetwork?
14:00:54  <andythenorth> each pixel would be about 2cm
14:00:57  <andythenorth> ideal
14:00:59  <Terkhen> the joys of linux, I hate gnome 3 but you have always options :P
14:01:04  <Terkhen> andythenorth: what is "GS and newgrf"?
14:01:22  <andythenorth> GS should be able to do stuff wrt newgrf
14:01:42  <Terkhen> what stuff?
14:01:44  <andythenorth> (1) GS should have unlimited money, or zero construction costs.  Why doesn't it?
14:01:44  <Terkhen> :P
14:01:57  *** BenTrein [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:02:31  <Terkhen> that's unrelated to NewGRFs... IIRC there were some good reasons to leave that out but I don't know/remember them
14:02:42  <andythenorth> simply dump all base costs to 0 while GS is running, then restore them
14:02:44  <andythenorth> problem solved
14:03:04  <andythenorth> allow GS to manipulate base costs, let authors do it themselves
14:03:11  <Terkhen> I don't think it was an implementation problem
14:03:16  <Terkhen> implementation problems are easy :)
14:03:21  <andythenorth> oh we're concerned about people doing bad things?
14:03:28  <andythenorth> just don't play openttd with idiots ;)
14:03:44  <Terkhen> no idea, you will have to ask someone else about the reasons, I don't trust my memory at all :)
14:03:50  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: ^^ etc
14:03:59  <frosch123> i would love to see ais use scp to team up against the human players
14:04:00  <TrueBrain> wuth?
14:04:19  <andythenorth> tl;dr: why can't GS have unlimited money / zero costs?
14:04:24  <TrueBrain> it has
14:04:32  <TrueBrain> but sadly, the question is invalid
14:04:52  <andythenorth> :(
14:05:06  <TrueBrain> I have to counter it with a question: when doesn the GS have unlimited money?
14:05:20  <andythenorth> when Zuu tells me it doesn't (unless it has an AI to steal from)
14:05:31  <andythenorth> do I need to test for myself instead of accepting wisdom of others? :P
14:05:43  <TrueBrain> well, when do you think it doesn have unlimited money?
14:05:45  <TrueBrain> at which actions?
14:05:53  <andythenorth> constructing industry
14:06:17  * andythenorth predicts a circular conversation next ;)
14:07:06  <andythenorth> maybe when I get my OS back, I should try writing GS :P
14:07:27  <TrueBrain> can a GS build an industry?
14:07:31  <andythenorth> no idea
14:07:35  <andythenorth> it should be able to though
14:07:45  <andythenorth> I heard rumour of a spec somewhere :P
14:07:48  <TrueBrain> but then your question before is kinda mute :P
14:07:59  * andythenorth finds the spec
14:08:07  <TrueBrain> ah, it can build
14:08:09  <TrueBrain> via Type
14:08:28  <TrueBrain> and .. it can only be done by GS
14:08:31  <TrueBrain> only via the DEITY company
14:08:31  <andythenorth> GS has loads of industry stuf
14:08:33  <TrueBrain> so, itis free
14:08:42  <TrueBrain> I wouldn't know who would hav eto pay for it :P
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14:08:49  <andythenorth> number of stations is interesting
14:09:03  <TrueBrain> basically, andythenorth, the GS doesn't have any money
14:09:04  <TrueBrain> as it is nobody
14:09:09  <andythenorth> also GetIndustryType is interesting
14:09:13  <TrueBrain> in some corner cases, it is a OWNER_DEITY
14:09:22  <andythenorth> that works for me
14:09:23  <TrueBrain> which doesn't require any money
14:09:32  <TrueBrain> there is one other case, where a GS executes stuff for a company
14:09:41  <TrueBrain> but then the only logic thing would be, that it costs the company the money
14:09:47  <TrueBrain> (like with AIs)
14:10:17  <andythenorth> where's the stuff for how much cargo delivered
14:10:36  <frosch123> gs should be able to spawn disaster vehicles
14:10:36  <TrueBrain> so when you talk about: why can't GS have unlimited money, I can only say: there is no case it needs ANY money
14:10:43  <TrueBrain> so the question sad enough is not valid :) Sry :)
14:10:44  <frosch123> and send a fleet of 100 ufos after your vehicles
14:10:52  <TrueBrain> frosch123: it can :)
14:10:53  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: good answer :)
14:10:54  <andythenorth> thanks
14:11:12  * andythenorth wants GS to be able to build a bunch of stuff right after map gen
14:11:14  <andythenorth> like towns
14:11:15  <andythenorth> industries
14:12:07  <andythenorth> hmm
14:12:12  <andythenorth> GS has bridge stuff :o
14:12:22  <andythenorth> so we could write a BridgeToNoGoWhere?
14:12:28  <andythenorth> as a challenge GS?
14:12:31  <TrueBrain> it can evenput down roads, free, unlimited :P
14:12:41  <andythenorth> For Gold medal: build highest bridge
14:12:42  <andythenorth> :P
14:13:15  <andythenorth> can GS remove bridges of *my* company
14:13:19  * andythenorth has ideas
14:13:26  <TrueBrain> for a cost, possibly
14:14:19  <SquireJames> Does your idea involve a tay bridge situation Andy?
14:14:20  <andythenorth> cost to me?  Or cost to the GS-which-has-no-money?
14:14:28  <TrueBrain> a GS can switch to a company
14:14:34  <TrueBrain> and execute certain commands
14:14:38  <TrueBrain> on behave of that company
14:14:40  <TrueBrain> so including costs
14:14:48  <andythenorth> he
14:14:52  <TrueBrain> not sure if destroying bridges is part of that, but most likely
14:15:07  <andythenorth> there is a severe under-exploitation of GS possibilities
14:15:18  <TrueBrain> that domain is very large :D
14:15:20  <andythenorth> will I be learning squirrel then :P
14:16:06  <Terkhen> andythenorth: see? I was right in not trusting my memory :)
14:16:15  <andythenorth> ;)
14:17:03  <andythenorth> awarding exclusive rights is interesting
14:17:12  <andythenorth> also setting town rating none
14:17:13  <TrueBrain> Terkhen: you are partly right; often we talked about if a GS should be able to do stuff on behave of a company for free
14:17:22  <TrueBrain> the answer always came down to: no, it should cost like it costs an AI
14:17:53  <andythenorth> can't see a FoundTown function or such
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14:18:48  <TrueBrain> changing town ratings is an interesting one btw
14:18:55  <TrueBrain> dunno if that is possible, but that could be really useful tbh
14:19:16  <Terkhen> :)
14:19:18  <andythenorth> think there's a method for it if I read correctly
14:19:32  <andythenorth> GS is too slow to respond every time a user tries to build something?
14:19:32  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: to give a bit more insight on talks about what GS can and shouldn't do: I personally am always very worried people start writing AIs in GS scripts, because it can cheat
14:19:51  <TrueBrain> we talked for a long time about stuff like BuildVehicle, for example
14:19:57  <TrueBrain> it is open for a lot of abuse
14:20:08  <andythenorth> nice problem to have :)
14:20:12  *** bolli [~Sam@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:20:18  <andythenorth> but fair enough
14:20:30  <TrueBrain> it is hard to make a line .. what a GS should and shouldn't be doing
14:20:36  <andythenorth> anyway, I don't think the lack of GS is due to lack of capability
14:20:44  <andythenorth> GS should be mostly simple anyway
14:20:59  <andythenorth> the stuff I am most searching for in the spec is to do with setting up map
14:21:10  <andythenorth> I don't want to be stuck on specific scenario with specific newgrfs
14:21:23  <andythenorth> I want GS to be able to place towns, industries, objects etc
14:21:37  <Terkhen> andythenorth: there is no need to do that
14:21:47  <Terkhen> when/if the new scenario format is complete
14:21:51  <Terkhen> you could rely in external tools to do that
14:22:47  <Terkhen> the format is just a bunch of png layers and text files
14:22:58  <Terkhen> bundled in a single tar
14:23:54  <andythenorth> interesting
14:23:58  <andythenorth> is it done yet? :)
14:24:25  <Terkhen> yes
14:24:31  <Terkhen> where yes means that it has a spec :)
14:24:44  <frosch123> it's done as is everyone is fed up with it?
14:24:58  <Terkhen> andythenorth:
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14:27:45  <Fremen> hm fraps doesn't recognize openttd as a game
14:29:37  *** bolli [] has joined #openttd
14:31:10  <frosch123> maybe it's no game
14:32:03  <Fremen> heh
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14:53:22  <Fremen> how can I autmatically place signals like every 4 squares instead of every square?
14:53:55  <frosch123> open the signal gui
14:53:58  <frosch123> set the distance
14:54:04  <frosch123> place one signal
14:54:17  <frosch123> ctrl+drag it in the direction you want to
14:54:33  <Fremen> aaah
14:54:40  <Fremen> didn't see those arrows
14:54:41  <Fremen> thnx
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15:02:41  <frosch123> TrueBrain: can we kick cia and make dorpsgek announce stuff in here? my ego hurts if my features receive not enough praising :p
15:04:23  <TrueBrain> sure
15:04:34  <TrueBrain> just I have no clue how to get CIA out :P
15:04:47  <frosch123> stop sending mails :p
15:05:08  <frosch123> well, double annoucment does not hurt to much
15:05:26  <TrueBrain> hmm, I see it also still sends to a maillist
15:05:28  <TrueBrain> does that still work? :P
15:05:36  <frosch123> what maillist?
15:05:43  <TrueBrain> exactly my question :P
15:06:08  <frosch123> there was a maillist in 2007, but it was about patches, not about commits
15:06:19  <TrueBrain> before that we already had a commit maillist
15:06:22  <TrueBrain> for a long long time
15:06:32  <frosch123> ah, yay, my daily delivery failure mails just arrived :s
15:07:04  <Alberth> pastebin it here :p
15:07:11  <TrueBrain> maillist still seems to be operations
15:07:12  <TrueBrain> al
15:07:24  <frosch123> oh wait, it now immediately says "delivery failure", not just after 24 hours
15:07:31  <frosch123> so, does that mean they actively deny the mails now?
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15:07:45  <TrueBrain> glx: do you still receive those emails?
15:08:36  *** keoz [] has joined #openttd
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15:10:40  <frosch123> hmm, cia website does not look exactly maintained
15:10:49  <frosch123> everything says 2007 or 2009
15:10:57  <SquireJames> thats government cut backs for you
15:11:07  <TrueBrain> frosch123: it is activelly worked on
15:11:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24483 /trunk/src/lang/dutch.txt: -Fix: remove ZERO WIDTH SPACE character from Dutch strings causing the fallback font to be chosen over the sprite font
15:11:41  <TrueBrain> okay, so it is still working
15:11:44  <frosch123> oh, dear, will we now get a flood?
15:11:46  <TrueBrain> we just had an old old old old email address
15:11:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24484 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt luxembourgish.txt):
15:11:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
15:11:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 4 changes by telk5093
15:11:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 19 changes by Phreeze
15:12:00  <Terkhen> it's just 15 commits :P
15:12:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r24485 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix: Clarify description of command line option -n
15:12:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24486 /trunk/src/lang/portuguese.txt:
15:12:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
15:12:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: portuguese - 15 changes by ricardoespsanto
15:12:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r24487 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange [FS#5236]: make several DoesContentExist return the path instead of a boolean (LordAro)
15:12:11  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r24488 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Feature [FS#5236]: add buttons to view textfiles from the online content window (LordAro)
15:12:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: zuu * r24489 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Feature [FS#5230]: Display GS dead state in AI debug window.
15:12:19  <Terkhen> ^ Zuu's first commit
15:12:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r24490 /trunk/src/script/api/game/game_window.hpp.sq: -Fix (r24487): forgot to run script/api/
15:12:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24491 /trunk/src/ (fios.h network/core/tcp_content.cpp): -Fix: compilation error with networking disabled
15:12:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24492 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Add: [NoGo] Useful behaviour for GSEngine::IsValidEngine and GSEngine::IsBuildable when outside GSCompanyMode scope.
15:12:41  <Terkhen> just to give it some visibility
15:12:43  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24493 /trunk/src/script/api/game_changelog.hpp: -Doc: Update GS changelog.
15:12:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24494 /trunk/ (readme.txt src/misc_gui.cpp): -Update: Some documentation.
15:12:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24495 /trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt:
15:12:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
15:12:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 9 changes by Phreeze
15:12:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24496 /trunk/src/base_media_func.h: -Fix [FS#5276]: Make sure all template functions are instantiated by at least one compilation unit.
15:13:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24497 /trunk/src/economy.cpp:
15:13:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Feature [FS#5106]: When using autorefit only load/refit vehicles if other
15:13:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: wagons cannot already take all cargo without refitting. This way the consist
15:13:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: preserves its refit potential as long as possible, in case other cargo arrives
15:13:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: at the station.
15:13:13  <TrueBrain> CIA moved to a new domain years ago
15:13:16  <Alberth> \o/
15:13:19  <frosch123> wow, how did it manage to process them all in order?
15:13:19  <TrueBrain> but we never upated the email address
15:13:25  <TrueBrain> seems that last week the old domain stopped working :P
15:13:27  <frosch123> usually it switches them up
15:13:34  <TrueBrain> frosch123: because I ran the command one by one
15:13:37  <TrueBrain> seems obviously :P
15:13:59  *** bolli [~Sam@] has joined #openttd
15:14:04  <TrueBrain> <- now that is in order too
15:14:34  <frosch123> <- ou mean that one?
15:14:36  <Terkhen> :)
15:14:51  <TrueBrain> yeah, sure
15:14:56  <TrueBrain> which ever makes you happy :)
15:15:11  <bolli> Argh. Its raining so hard, our road is now a river :|
15:16:23  <TrueBrain> so, that problem solved too :)
15:16:38  <andythenorth> brb
15:16:47  <andythenorth> need to put the screws back in this laptop case :P
15:16:49  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
15:17:03  <roboboy> hello
15:20:59  <Alberth> hi
15:23:26  *** FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
15:25:24  <glx> [16:33:08] <TrueBrain> glx: do you still receive those emails? <-- svn emails ? yes
15:25:40  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
15:25:48  <andythenorth> meh
15:26:00  * andythenorth can see a future containing much reinstalling
15:26:06  <TrueBrain> glx: k, tnx :)
15:26:31  <glx> and there were no commits yesterday :)
15:26:39  <glx> not even WT
15:27:21  <frosch123> andythenorth: use a virtual machine for test installs
15:27:38  <frosch123> don't mess up your main machine before you know you want to :)
15:27:40  <andythenorth> first I need an OS on my SSD that will actually boot this box
15:27:48  <andythenorth> instead of beeping at me
15:28:07  * FLHerne gets driven crazy by graphics drivers
15:28:51  <andythenorth> I can't get 10.7 from Apple online
15:28:54  <andythenorth> only 10.8
15:29:05  <andythenorth> I don't have any DVDs here
15:29:11  <andythenorth> nor firewire cables
15:29:19  <andythenorth> nor any install OS DVDs
15:29:25  <andythenorth> only one external case and 4 macs
15:29:40  <frosch123> at least you can make a warm fire then :)
15:29:48  <andythenorth> no matches
15:29:50  <andythenorth> or petrol
15:29:51  <FLHerne> I can either have a low-res/unaccelerated driver that works, or an accelerated one that doesn't support KMS and causes hideous display artifacts
15:30:02  <andythenorth> I should just drive 1 hour and go fix this in the office :P
15:30:12  <andythenorth> "don't go on holiday"
15:30:19  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Get a USB stick?
15:30:24  <planetmaker> meh. People start to send me all kind of nml questions via pm. Time to not be so kind anymore and reply extensively but refer to forums
15:30:49  <andythenorth> planetmaker: do you want a copy of the flame DaleStan gave me for asking him a question via pm?
15:31:00  <planetmaker> yes, please :-)
15:31:11  <planetmaker> he has a very pointy way of writing :-D
15:31:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: don't go on holiday within reach 1 hour reach of work :)
15:32:14  <andythenorth> oh, those were the fun times of learning in nfo, 2008
15:32:18  <andythenorth> much has changed since then
15:33:08  <frosch123> he, i also wrote a pm to dalestan in 2007 asking about nfo stuff :p
15:33:17  *** SquireJames [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
15:33:20  <frosch123> his fault to put "nfo coding consultant" into the sig :)
15:33:22  *** SquireJames [] has joined #openttd
15:33:33  <planetmaker> I'm afraid it's wally whom I refer to forums. But it's quoting my forum reply... asking about it. So why not go on there where it's even on-topic?
15:33:43  <frosch123> at least i felt invited to send pms :p
15:33:51  <planetmaker> haha :-) yeah
15:34:48  *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@] has joined #openttd
15:36:00  <andythenorth> planetmaker:
15:36:14  *** Devroush [] has joined #openttd
15:36:51  <frosch123> oh, he removed that line from his signature?
15:36:55  <frosch123> i wonder when he did that
15:38:09  <TrueBrain> I can imagine minutes after your pm :P
15:41:35  <andythenorth> so is anyone coding my "Power Grid" GS then?
15:41:44  <andythenorth> ideally I would have an army of coders
15:41:53  <andythenorth> I'd be the "ideas guy"
15:42:00  <andythenorth> we can split the profits 50:50
15:42:36  <TrueBrain> paid GameScripts
15:42:38  <TrueBrain> hmm
15:42:39  <TrueBrain> interesting :)
15:42:47  <andythenorth> .99 download
15:42:52  <andythenorth> €1.99 - cheaper
15:43:04  <TrueBrain> or put it on servers only
15:43:09  <TrueBrain> where you can buy a ticket
15:43:11  <TrueBrain> to play on them
15:43:14  <andythenorth> pay-to-play
15:43:21  <TrueBrain> wait, Valve already did that with their latest TF2 extension ....
15:43:29  <andythenorth> how much is that server guy wanting?
15:43:30  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i think we are closer to that than you might think...
15:43:31  <andythenorth> Luukland?
15:43:47  <TrueBrain> like I said, Valve does it with TF2
15:44:01  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i meant wrt. ottd :o
15:44:03  <TrueBrain> you can play on servers for free, but if you want to play on special servers (what-ever it  might be) it costs you 74 eurocents
15:44:08  <andythenorth> urg
15:44:14  <andythenorth> this OS is all slidey and zoomy
15:44:16  <andythenorth> fuck that :|
15:44:22  <TrueBrain> frosch123: why would anyone want to pay for OpenTTD related anything?
15:44:27  * andythenorth is sweary today, sorry
15:44:41  <frosch123> TrueBrain: to play on a server with a special gs
15:44:54  <TrueBrain> sounds wrong
15:44:56  <TrueBrain> in so many ways
15:45:24  <TrueBrain> hihi, we should make that all GS scripts change OpenTTD, then GS scripts can only be released under GPL :D
15:45:32  <frosch123> you pay 1€, then the servers spawns a company for you and sends you the password to join
15:45:46  <TrueBrain> marketing-wise, not a bad concept
15:46:02  <frosch123> TrueBrain: what's the point? ottd is not agpl
15:46:16  <TrueBrain> frosch123: next, we change the license to a CC-no-commercial
15:46:19  <TrueBrain> and tada! :P
15:47:27  <TrueBrain> what always bumps me out, is when servers charge money for access (fine, I don't like it, but what can you do), but don't send any of those earnings upstream to those who supplied the game itself for free
15:48:30  <TrueBrain> (you start to see that more and more with Minecraft, for example)
15:49:31  <frosch123> well, money does not help oss :p
15:49:35  <frosch123> so, better keep it :)
15:49:57  <TrueBrain> then donate it to some .. shit, what is the english word
15:49:59  <TrueBrain> euuhhh
15:50:02  <TrueBrain> 'good goal'
15:50:04  <TrueBrain> lolz
15:50:07  <frosch123> charity?
15:50:09  <TrueBrain> you are Dutch or you aren't
15:50:11  <TrueBrain> ah, yes, tnx :)
15:50:14  <andythenorth> we need money for prizes :)
15:50:17  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Which OS is 'slidey and zoomy'?
15:50:25  <andythenorth> some crappy OS X
15:50:29  <andythenorth> 10.7 probably
15:50:38  <andythenorth> nothing stays still
15:50:47  <andythenorth> and I can't turn off the damn trackpad scroll and swipe crap
15:50:59  <andythenorth> everything is moving all the time
15:51:18  <andythenorth> if I wanted to watch animations, Tom & Jerry is probably on YT
15:51:26  * andythenorth is severely grumpy today
15:52:20  <andythenorth> my god they broke the calendar too
15:52:28  <andythenorth> and the address book
15:53:20  <andythenorth> previously having things the Apple way was the price you paid for the fact that Steve Jobs was the only person in computing with taste
15:53:36  <andythenorth> now it's all just screwed
15:53:51  * andythenorth considers giving up the interwebs
15:54:14  <SquireJames> Is there a kind soul here who might help me debug my script again?
15:55:08  <SquireJames> I have it working (well not crashing) but it steadfastly refuses to do as it is told
15:55:41  <SquireJames> It's supposed to make a test window appear on January 5th 1925. It won't. Nothing appears
15:56:05  <TrueBrain> its funny .. scripts only do what you tell them to do :D So I am guessing you don't want your script to do as it is told? :) (going all Freud on you now :P)
15:56:49  <SquireJames> I'm aware of that :P a better term would be "I am telling it to do the wrong thing, but not sure exactly how what I am telling it differs from what I want to tell it"
15:56:53  <Alberth> SquireJames: if you want help, pastebin the script, so we can have a look.
15:56:58  <SquireJames> Wilco
15:57:11  <TrueBrain> no, his name is Alberth, not Wilco
15:57:11  <SquireJames> copy paste here then right?
15:57:17  <TrueBrain> the pastebin
15:57:18  <Alberth> SquireJames: talking about "it does not work" gives so few cluea about what is actually wrong
15:57:19  <TrueBrain> not the script :)
15:57:26  <SquireJames> Okay
15:57:45  <SquireJames> Again I am aware of that, but there is little else I can say other than that a window is supposed to appear and doesn't
15:57:48  <Alberth>    <-- eg
15:58:33  <roboboy> Why isn't that subdomain mentioned in the topic?:P
15:58:45  <SquireJames> Done
15:58:46  <TrueBrain> because it is not on the domain?
15:58:47  <SquireJames> Paste #1668
15:59:01  <Alberth> SquireJames: url please
15:59:09  <SquireJames>
15:59:21  <FLHerne> andythenorth: If you had KDE, you could just turn off all the eyecandy ;-):P
15:59:25  <roboboy> oops
15:59:53  <Alberth> SquireJames: shouldn't you start a function body at line 2 ?
16:00:30  <SquireJames> Zuu provided the code, in order to get it to load without crashing, I had to move the variables from above the while loop to inside it
16:00:37  <TrueBrain> shouldn't you define locals outside the loop? :P
16:00:55  <TrueBrain> hehe, one piece of advise: randomly moving code is rarely a good thing :)
16:00:56  <SquireJames> If I define them outside, this happens:-
16:01:25  <SquireJames> "Your script made an error: the index 'fired' does not exist"
16:01:31  <Alberth> SquireJames: programming by random copy/pasting/moving code will get you nowhere
16:01:48  <Alberth> you need to understand what you are doing
16:01:57  <SquireJames> It wasn't random, It wasn't finding my variables, ergo I moved them
16:02:05  <SquireJames> and surprise, it found them
16:02:15  <TrueBrain> and surprise, it no longer does what you think it does :)
16:02:28  <SquireJames> I am not some incompetant moron randomly copying and pasting code and hoping.
16:02:43  <Alberth> nor does it work any more like Zuu intended it to
16:02:51  <SquireJames> It didnt work in the first place
16:02:54  *** flaa [~flaa@] has joined #openttd
16:03:01  <TrueBrain> anyway, is this your whole script SquireJames?
16:03:02  <SquireJames> Had it then we wouldn't be having this conversation
16:03:04  <TrueBrain> I am missing some essentials
16:03:15  <SquireJames> My whole script is this
16:03:23  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
16:03:29  <SquireJames>
16:04:05  <TrueBrain> do you have any prior experience in any programming language?
16:04:08  <TrueBrain> (asking, not judging)
16:04:28  <SquireJames> I do, a little C++ at college, visual basic at university
16:04:38  <TrueBrain> then you should be aware that if you define a function
16:04:40  <TrueBrain> you also have to call it
16:04:45  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
16:04:48  <SquireJames> the outlay is familiar, with the static and local variables etc
16:04:48  <TrueBrain> there is no magic in the land of programming ;)
16:05:12  <TrueBrain> also, a function has a body. You create a body by creating a scope, like {}
16:05:14  <SquireJames> ah, so do I need a this. command?
16:05:15  <TrueBrain> this is missing
16:05:21  <andythenorth> "time remaining: less than a minute" <- for about 3 minutes
16:05:32  <andythenorth> install already :(
16:05:33  <TrueBrain> that is the basic part of any programming language; I suggest yo look at the code already supplied to you :)
16:05:49  <SquireJames> The code supplied to me generates a crash
16:05:50  <Alberth> or a few working scripts
16:06:00  <SquireJames> Informing me that my variables have not been found
16:06:09  <TrueBrain> I am not going to teach you how to program, sorry :) You will have to go on the web for that :)
16:06:16  <SquireJames> I've tried moving the variable calls both inside the loop and outside the whole function
16:06:33  <SquireJames> If I leave them where Zuu put them, the program complains that it can't find them
16:07:30  <frosch123> andythenorth:
16:07:42  <andythenorth> lol
16:08:01  <andythenorth> wtf
16:08:09  <TrueBrain> its funny because it is true :D
16:08:28  <andythenorth> wtf - OS X restore magical thingy has upgraded my OS without removing all my stuff from the HD
16:08:32  <Alberth> you are missing a lot of context, I'd suggest you learn about how to make a class / class method in squirrel first, otherwise you're just doing trial and error
16:08:43  <SquireJames> Oh how I love that response
16:08:45  <andythenorth> despite that instructions said it would erase my HD
16:09:01  <TrueBrain> OSX is very good in keeping your personal data
16:09:12  <TrueBrain> I did many reinstalls of the core OS, with having all my applications still work
16:09:17  <SquireJames> I must have read five or six threads on the forum now about scripting
16:09:18  <TrueBrain> its awesome :)
16:09:18  <glx> <TrueBrain> its funny because it is true :D <-- especially on vista :)
16:09:21  <SquireJames> and they all end with that
16:09:23  <andythenorth> I used to do that
16:09:31  <andythenorth> since OS X beta I have been upgrading same system
16:09:36  <SquireJames> The lovely paradox that if we knew how to do it, we wouldn't be asking
16:10:03  <andythenorth> but 10.7 OS restore implies you lose your data and have to go get it from your backups
16:10:05  <TrueBrain> SquireJames: either buy any good programming book, or learn by example; plenty of workable scripts on the Online Content service :)
16:10:08  <SquireJames> but because we ask, you (meaning scripters collectively) respond that we need to go and learn X
16:10:10  <Alberth> SquireJames: Giving you solutions doesn't bring you further, instead I give you the place to look for further information
16:10:22  <SquireJames> All said in your most condescending tones no doubt
16:10:24  <andythenorth> SquireJames: do you have a thing that prints hello world yet?
16:10:39  <andythenorth> SquireJames: have you got a squirrel interpreter installed?
16:10:51  <TrueBrain> SquireJames: if you want us to do your work for you, you came to the wrong channel, sorry :)
16:10:52  <Alberth> SquireJames: not at all, but explaining programming is not something you do in 2 lines or IRC
16:11:00  <Alberth> *of
16:11:10  <SquireJames> TrueBrain, what I want is an explanation as to why the code supplied to me does not work
16:11:11  <andythenorth> I haven't written GS, but first thing I did was get Squirrel, and figure out hello world
16:11:14  <andythenorth> then I got bored :P
16:11:17  <SquireJames> Instead I get blamed
16:11:26  <andythenorth> where is this frisking paste?
16:11:31  <andythenorth> fricking *
16:11:33  <TrueBrain> it is sad that you see blame, where we see us trying to help
16:11:35  <SquireJames> I do have a hello world script that runs, you can see it in the script I pasted
16:11:36  <andythenorth> bad spelling
16:11:36  <TrueBrain> but meh .. your loss :)
16:11:41  <andythenorth> give me the paste
16:11:49  <Alberth> SquireJames:  Alberth: you are missing a lot of context, ....  <-- here is why it fails
16:12:06  <SquireJames> Then perhaps the help given to me by Zuu was faulty
16:12:39  <TrueBrain> hihi, that reminds me of: if something goes wrong and you are smiling, you have someone else to blame :D
16:12:45  <Alberth> Zuu 's help was fine, he assumed you knew how to make a class/class method, which seems a proper assumption to me
16:12:56  <andythenorth> paste?  Or I go continue fixing my OS instead...?
16:13:04  <SquireJames>
16:13:36  *** flaa [~flaa@] has quit [Quit: leaving]
16:13:39  <andythenorth> gah formatting
16:13:44  <roboboy> gnight
16:13:48  <TrueBrain> sleep tight
16:13:51  <andythenorth> that's jquery style
16:13:58  <SquireJames> Oddly enough this is exactly the attitude I got when trying to learn NFO many moons ago
16:14:00  <Terkhen> TrueBrain: WRT Valve's tickets for TF2, the "special servers" just give you eyecandy items when you finish a game
16:14:12  <frosch123> SquireJames: so, where do you call "FirstDate"
16:14:13  <TrueBrain> Terkhen: worth 74 eurocent?! rly? :(
16:14:15  <andythenorth> what doesn't it do?
16:14:33  <TrueBrain> frosch123: I already asked .. he wanted to know the command to do that ...
16:14:35  <andythenorth> function MainClass::FirstDate()
16:14:36  <frosch123> SquireJames: you can go on the internet to ask how to build a bicycle, but you cannot ask how to walk
16:14:40  <Terkhen> TrueBrain: it's cheap compared with other stuff they have already pulled off, they sell virtual hats for 15€
16:14:44  <andythenorth> is that valid without squiggles?
16:14:45  <Terkhen> and the people buy them
16:14:48  <TrueBrain> Terkhen: fair enough :)
16:14:57  <andythenorth> function declaration with no squiggles?
16:14:58  <frosch123> you have to figure out walking yourself, or ask someone to show up at your place personally to teach you
16:15:05  <frosch123> but there is no way to tell you in text
16:15:17  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: the function has a body :D It is dirty, but that is what happens :)
16:15:23  <andythenorth> blearch
16:15:24  <Terkhen> as long as I can play without having to deal with those stupidities... but it is a worrysome tendency
16:15:27  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: it is as valid as if (a) b();
16:15:30  <andythenorth> yup
16:15:33  <SquireJames> Alright, fine, consider me a retard. How does one call something then
16:15:50  <andythenorth> GSController.Sleep(32)
16:15:53  <andythenorth> is a call
16:15:58  <frosch123> just like the Start functions calls HandleEvents() or DoTest()
16:15:59  <andythenorth> with a function parametere
16:16:03  <TrueBrain> it is sad you keep calling yourself stupid, retard, and what other words did you use? while  now 4 people are trying to help you along the way without any of those words ...
16:16:14  <TrueBrain> I suggest you stop with that attitude .. it is annoying
16:16:23  <andythenorth> SquireJames: you're English?  Not Welsh or Scottish or Northern Irish?
16:16:45  <SquireJames> My nationality has what bearing exactly?
16:17:00  <andythenorth> it's a game I play called 'guess where people are from'
16:17:08  <andythenorth> in the case of TrueBrain I got it very wrong
16:17:11  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: the only valid answer is: my mother :)
16:17:19  <andythenorth> I first encountered TrueBrain when he was being a bit French Canadian
16:17:26  <TrueBrain> really?!
16:17:29  <frosch123> lol
16:17:30  <andythenorth> some days he's like that :P
16:17:32  <TrueBrain> I hate French (no offense glx :P)
16:17:40  <TrueBrain> and I can't stand Canadians (no offense Belugas :P)
16:17:42  <SquireJames> I appologise for my frustration
16:18:03  <SquireJames> Coming from some of the modding i;ve done, it somewhat embarresses me that a script this simple eludes me
16:18:09  <frosch123> TrueBrain: be careful, canadians live the forrest and murder evey stranger that comes along
16:18:14  <andythenorth> SquireJames: honestly, if I was approaching this, I'd start with hello world in Squirrel
16:18:40  <andythenorth> until I'd got classes and methods figured out for the particular language, I'd be lost
16:18:50  <andythenorth> then I'd want to know how strings and other types worked
16:19:00  <Alberth> SquireJames: the trouble with computing is that EVERYTHING has to be precisely correct, so you generally start with something VERY small, and gradually expand
16:19:21  <andythenorth> anyway, /me is going back to battling OS X
16:19:24  <andythenorth> biab
16:19:25  <andythenorth> or not
16:19:26  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
16:19:31  <SquireJames> I figured I was. I thought a script to make a string appear on a certain date was hardly rocket science compared to something like an AI or NoCarGoal
16:20:07  <TrueBrain> the problem with programming rarely is the complexity of the script itself, but more of the construct of the language :)
16:20:26  <Alberth> The objective itself is not so big, but there is a lot of stuff around it that you need to know too
16:21:26  <SquireJames> This doesn't seem like something I am likely to grasp to be honest. It seems all things TTD elude me
16:21:56  <Alberth> your problem is basic syntax of the language, which is solvable by doing a few tutorials
16:22:03  <TrueBrain> sadly, this is more general. Squirrel is a very C-like language. it wouldn't hurt to understand the concepts of a language like C, and by extend, of Squirrel
16:22:20  <TrueBrain> or something might go a long way in udnerstanding the basics
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16:22:49  <SquireJames> I appreciate the help, I think i'll go back to sprite editing and hope someone wants to code them for me. Thanks though
16:23:30  <TrueBrain> if you can program one (imperative) language, you can program them all ;) So worth your time in my opinion :)
16:23:50  <Alberth> SquireJames: it's like sprite editing, it takes time and practice. You cannot be productive from day 1
16:24:17  <SquireJames> I was quite good at programming in vB (so I was told by my tutor anyway) but that was some years back and apparently i've forgotten the syntax required
16:24:39  <SquireJames> As I said, I managed to code a train in NFO back in 2004, god alone knows how looking back. I've forgotten it all
16:24:42  <TrueBrain> that is more to blame to vb :D
16:26:01  <SquireJames> I just feel somewhat caged by my limitations and can't seem to do anything about it.
16:26:07  <TrueBrain> buy a book :)
16:27:29  <TrueBrain> books are 2010 .. but an ebook :D
16:27:45  <Alberth> spend a few weeks learning C or C++ or so
16:27:59  <TrueBrain> you have those "learn C in 10 days", where every day you spend like 1 hour on it
16:28:19  <TrueBrain> although I guess Squirrel is more like Java?
16:28:55  <Alberth> TrueBrain: yeah, very annoying, I needed years to learn it, and then they release a book to do it in 10 days :p
16:29:05  <SquireJames> Notepad++ seems to parse it as something like C++, but, beats me
16:29:07  <Alberth> Learning Java is fine too imho
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16:29:23  <TrueBrain> Alberth: hehehe
16:29:25  <TrueBrain> wb andythenorth
16:29:32  <andythenorth> didn't bloody work
16:29:48  <TrueBrain> I will get the shotgun
16:29:49  <andythenorth> think those bastards have put hardware serial-number based DRM on 10.7
16:30:21  <andythenorth> I can no longer take a drive with an OS installed (legally) from one mac (I own) to another mac (that I own)
16:30:35  <andythenorth> which has severe implications for troubleshooting / migrating / upgrading
16:30:46  <Alberth> isn't it fun, companies deciding what you may and may not do? :p
16:30:58  <andythenorth> when I tried to boot, I just get a no-entry sign and the mac shuts down
16:31:05  <SquireJames> Part of the problem I think is that I have what might be interpreted as a learning disability, and I find if I grasp something, bam I can run with it. If I can't, it just throws me completely
16:31:09  <Rubidium> isn't it obvious... there are guys specially trained that will do that for you
16:31:39  <Rubidium> you just need to go to the genius bar
16:31:47  <andythenorth> ugh
16:31:52  <andythenorth> or I could stab myself in the eye
16:32:18  <andythenorth> so the choices are: OS X (fucked), Linux (fucked), Windows (fucked)
16:32:19  <Alberth> SquireJames: part of the problem is that finding the right way to start is difficult
16:32:21  <andythenorth> any other OS choices?
16:32:29  <Alberth> OpenBSD ?
16:32:36  <SquireJames> DOS? :P
16:32:38  <andythenorth> AmigaOS?
16:32:45  <Alberth> (don't even try it)
16:32:46  <kais58> FreeDOS?
16:32:47  <SquireJames> Hehe, thats going back
16:33:02  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Haiku?
16:33:02  <andythenorth> is Chrome an OS yet? :P
16:33:03  <SquireJames> GEM, if you can weld an Atari ST chip into your mac :P
16:33:08  <FLHerne> KolibriOS?
16:33:29  <TrueBrain> FreeBSD is nice
16:33:34  <TrueBrain> ran it for a few months
16:33:43  <TrueBrain> terrible if you enjoy any non-CLI, but meh
16:33:43  <SquireJames> Never worked out if Workbench was a copy of Windows 3.1 or vice versa
16:33:49  <FLHerne> And how is Linux 'fucked'? :-(
16:33:52  <Rubidium> andythenorth: well, with Linux you generally can move a HDD from one computer to another and it'll work
16:34:03  <Rubidium> except when the computer architectures are not compatible
16:34:04  <andythenorth> yes, after you've recompiled about 14 things
16:34:08  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: didnt you enable encryption on the drive?
16:34:15  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: no
16:34:17  <TrueBrain> as then you shouldn't be able to move it to another machine :D
16:34:33  <TrueBrain> meh .. would have been such an easy solution :(
16:34:43  <andythenorth> here's how upgrading goes for the Linux guys I know (several):
16:34:49  <andythenorth> - I have a new laptop (yay)
16:35:29  <TrueBrain> that is not OS depending, is it? :D
16:35:37  <TrueBrain> *troll*
16:35:45  <andythenorth> - 1 day later: OK, I have it working now.  I had to edit and compile my own graphics driver, I still can't get the native resolution for my screen, the power management isn't working but I don't need it yet, and somehow my mouse speed is a bit off. I had to recompile TCP / IP too, but that's ok
16:36:00  <andythenorth> - it was easy really
16:36:09  <Alberth> andythenorth: that's OpenBSD :p
16:36:19  <Kjetil> and gentoo
16:36:28  <Alberth> Linux is friendlier nowadays
16:36:29  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: that is 2010
16:36:31  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Really? That was a few years ago (or Debian, ever) for me :P . Modern distros seem to work fine
16:36:48  <Terkhen> yes, that sounds like years ago, stuff like debian and ubuntu now just work
16:36:54  <Terkhen> unless you are using some strange hardware :P
16:37:00  <andythenorth> like Dell
16:37:04  <andythenorth> or Toshiba
16:37:06  <TrueBrain> I have an USB stick I can plug in most computers, start, and Linux works
16:37:07  <FLHerne> Terkhen: Debian? Work out-of the-box!? :o
16:37:08  <TrueBrain> everything :P
16:37:20  <TrueBrain> that said, it is only recent that Linux kernel fixed laptop battery issues
16:37:30  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Do you keep a PPC disk too? I do :P
16:37:34  <Terkhen> andythenorth: if you check the hardware you are buying before paying for it, you can avoid linux-unfriendly hardware
16:37:40  <andythenorth> :o
16:37:45  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: hence the word "most", always one smartypants in the group
16:37:48  <andythenorth> see, all the things I want to avoid :P
16:37:56  <Terkhen> FLHerne: it worked in my old laptop out of the box
16:38:06  <TrueBrain> Debian works out of the box on a daily base here :P
16:38:07  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: /me is biased, over half my computers are PPC ;-)
16:38:11  <andythenorth> I don't like conversations that go "and see, I just reinstalled it all from ports"
16:38:17  <Kjetil> maybe computers just aren't for you, andythenorth :P
16:38:23  <andythenorth> +1
16:38:25  <bolli> Andy: Do what we did at work when our office mac went kaput: walk into an apple store and shout at the manager until they fix it.
16:38:26  <andythenorth> I hate the damn things
16:38:31  <TrueBrain> use stones
16:38:48  <andythenorth> I hate watching this installer solve my problems for me
16:39:00  <TrueBrain> don't watch
16:39:05  <TrueBrain> solutions are so simple
16:39:48  <FLHerne> andythenorth: As long as it isn't Windows-style 'solving', where it breaks everything while saying "Windows is repairing your system" or something of similar pointlessness :P
16:39:59  <Terkhen> andythenorth: use something like gentoo or arch then, that way you will have to solve *all* of your problems
16:40:07  <Terkhen> it's fun... for a while :P
16:40:28  <TrueBrain> I used Gentoo for 4 years or so ... never again :P
16:40:34  <TrueBrain> upgrading your system takes days
16:40:36  <TrueBrain> not minutes :P
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16:41:03  <TrueBrain> in result you stop updating
16:41:09  <TrueBrain> which makes updates take even longer :P
16:42:36  <Terkhen> arch is faster because packages are precompiled already... I like it a lot, except when something breaks and I don't have the time or I just don't feel like checking configuration files
16:42:42  <Terkhen> with identical results than the ones you mention :P
16:43:16  <TrueBrain> Gentoo also has the ability to use precompiled package
16:43:20  <TrueBrain> but that makes the whole OS a bit mute :P
16:43:28  <Terkhen> mute in what sense?
16:43:33  <TrueBrain> then just use Debian :P
16:44:13  <SquireJames> I think you mean moot :P
16:44:32  <SquireJames> Although operating systems are prone not to talk also ;)
16:45:25  <Terkhen> once I want to bother with configuring optimus on linux, I'll probably try xubuntu
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17:18:30  <Terkhen> i
17:18:35  <Terkhen> meh, stupid trackpad
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17:34:17  <andythenorth> hmm
17:34:25  <andythenorth> just scored a 1GB Cialis flash drive
17:34:29  <andythenorth> this might help
17:34:52  <andythenorth> I should just stop trying to shortcut this process :P
17:35:44  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: FWIW, it's not DRM on OS X, but if you use the restore partition on a certain mac to rebuild your OS X, the disk you restore is tied to that mac
17:36:13  <andythenorth> if you have a download of OS X yourself, you can restore any mac
17:36:16  <andythenorth> which is reasonable
17:36:26  <andythenorth> except the fuckers only let you download 10.8 now
17:36:35  <andythenorth> and 10.8 is reported as bug-ridden and kills battery
17:36:38  <andythenorth> :P
17:38:05  <planetmaker> quite so. I'd not want 10.8 really :-)
17:38:42  <planetmaker> this machine still has 10.6. I tested 10.7 but didn't find it worth the upgrade trouble ;-)
17:38:58  <planetmaker> And 10.8 even in anticipation didn't make me want it
17:39:32  <andythenorth> 10.6 won't boot my new mac :(
17:40:42  <andythenorth> meh
17:40:46  * andythenorth is bored of this
17:41:05  <planetmaker> wow, it won't boot it?!
17:41:09  <andythenorth> nope
17:41:17  <planetmaker> how / why that?
17:41:21  <andythenorth> dunno
17:41:30  <planetmaker> newer system on it?
17:41:35  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Get an OS with less restrictive driver support ;-)
17:41:39  <andythenorth> does the three chimes to say RAM is bad, but I think that's incorrect
17:41:48  <planetmaker> hm... and you can't remove the disk anymore either, right?
17:42:05  <andythenorth> nah the disk comes out of this one
17:42:11  <andythenorth> I've had the case open about 12 times today
17:42:16  <planetmaker> ah, ok
17:42:32  <planetmaker> so it boots in the old but not the new?
17:42:52  <andythenorth> the old one died this morning
17:42:59  <andythenorth> the new one boots with the supplied disk
17:43:29  <andythenorth> I've been trying to avoid using Migration Assistant :P
17:43:52  <andythenorth> I could have had this done in 2 hrs if I'd done it using the Apple supplied tool
17:44:58  <planetmaker> he. what stopped you using it?
17:45:13  <planetmaker> (except it being a murky tool doing *stuff* with your precious data
17:45:15  <planetmaker> )
17:45:24  <SquireJames> I thought Cialis was that male impotence drug?
17:45:28  <andythenorth> it is
17:45:45  <andythenorth> I wanted to put my SSD straight into the new mac
17:45:52  <andythenorth> ignoring the supplied drive
17:45:54  <SquireJames> I am waiting for someone to make a hard drive joke.
17:46:57  <andythenorth> then after trying various upgrade routes (fail fail fail), I made a boo boo
17:47:12  <Terkhen> joy :P
17:47:22  <andythenorth> I used the 'restore' feature in 10.7, but using my wife's laptop instead of mine
17:47:35  <andythenorth> so now my SSD has a successful upgrade, but will only boot my wife's laptop
17:47:36  <Terkhen> the warranty allows you to open the computer and change hard drives?
17:47:37  <andythenorth> not mine :P
17:47:43  <andythenorth> ish
17:47:55  <andythenorth> they don't refuse to fix it if you've done that
17:48:02  <andythenorth> unless you broke it
17:48:26  <andythenorth> RAM and HD are considered user-serviceable
17:48:55  <andythenorth> Apple have this initially weird approach: either upgrading hardware is stupidly *easy*, or impossible
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17:51:16  <SquireJames> As a company, they do baffle me with things like that
17:53:10  <Terkhen> because they are hidden or because of warranty issues? :P
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18:17:43  <bolli> Is there a sample Freight Wagon available on NML wiki? I can'aye find one...
18:19:45  <planetmaker> I guess not directly. But... you read through the tutorial with the tram(?)
18:21:17  <bolli> I've read through the tram stuff. What I want to know is whether there are any major differences with freight cars?
18:22:02  <planetmaker> the transported cargo usually ;-)
18:22:21  <bolli> ok :P
18:22:22  <planetmaker> and if you talk trains instead of trams or RV, of course also a track type
18:23:02  <planetmaker> the difference between engine and wagon is basically the absence of power and tractive effort
18:41:04  <TrueBrain> # Jouw bil is een krokodil, hap hap met je krokobil
18:50:18  <frosch123> i kind of missed that... belugas always sang in this channel
18:58:12  <Rubidium> to stay within the theme then:
18:58:15  <Rubidium> # schni schna schnappi schnappi schnappi schnapp
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19:10:44  <andythenorth> ho ho
19:11:35  <andythenorth> maybe it bloody worked
19:11:39  <Rubidium> yeah... only four months till Christmas. Time to buy a tree
19:11:56  <andythenorth> it even seems to have remembered that I disabled trackpad scroll and all that crap
19:12:06  * andythenorth should just have read the instructions
19:13:17  <andythenorth> the assumption that Apple are now out to screw their customers has wasted most of my afternoon :P
19:13:33  <andythenorth> if I'd read their support article first, my life would be easier :P
19:13:34  <SquireJames> these things happen :)
19:13:55  <SquireJames> besides, isn't that our male prerogative, to never read the instructions?
19:13:56  <andythenorth> wonder if my python apps start :P
19:15:10  <andythenorth> wonder if nml builds :P
19:15:16  <andythenorth> wonder if OpenTTD crashes :P
19:15:37  <andythenorth> frick
19:15:38  <andythenorth> no make
19:15:53  <andythenorth> Plone works though
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19:16:13  <andythenorth> do I really want to build GCC myself :(
19:17:17  <Kjetil> No
19:17:33  <SquireJames> By the way, you gentlemen suggested earlier to do a basic squirrel tutorial (the usual Hello World thingy). Is there one you might reccomend? I am just having trouble finding one.
19:19:45  <SquireJames> See, there is this page:-
19:19:46  <andythenorth> I had one somewhere
19:19:54  <SquireJames> notice the tutorial link, well, isn't a link :)
19:20:27  <andythenorth> right now my HD is being reindexed so I can't search :P
19:23:56  <andythenorth> SquireJames:
19:23:58  <andythenorth> I think that worked
19:24:07  <andythenorth> I can't remember how to run squirrel or anything
19:24:13  <andythenorth> not sure what it does either
19:24:15  <SquireJames> I'll give it a go, thanks :)
19:24:35  <andythenorth> oh
19:24:52  <andythenorth> it demonstrates the difference in search results if you lower case all strings or not
19:24:56  <SquireJames> I downloaded Squirrel from their site, and I have a plugin for Notepad+ specifically for it now, although the C++ mode in Notepad+ seemed to have the right syntax
19:25:02  <andythenorth> I made it to debug someone else's code iirc
19:26:00  <andythenorth> it's in the samples dir of my squirrel download
19:26:06  <andythenorth> so to run it, I use "bin/sq samples/hello.nut "
19:26:32  <andythenorth> some people can learn languages because they're programmers
19:26:47  <andythenorth> and some of us learn languages by first learning the print statement, and then working up from there :P
19:26:52  <andythenorth> biab - food
19:33:22  <Alberth> programmers also started with 'print' in the first 6 languages they learned :p
19:33:54  <Alberth> although, some didn't have one :p
19:35:49  <Alberth> SquireJames: yeah, c++ mode mostly works, except for things like 'function'
19:36:28  <SquireJames> Prepare yourself for some very basic questions here, but ahem, erm, how do I get squirrel to run exactly
19:36:55  <SquireJames> It;s command line based I assume
19:39:45  <SquireJames> AH, hmm apparently I need VisualC++ or something called GCC
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19:43:38  <SquireJames> although makefile seems to be a .bat file
19:44:36  <bolli> run the .bat file on windows? :p
19:44:45  <SquireJames> That was my next step yes :P
19:44:53  <SquireJames> once I make sure it's pointing at the right file
19:47:30  <SquireJames> hmm, "The system cannot find message text for message number 0x2331 in the message fil e for Application."
19:48:00  <bolli> try googling it? :p
19:50:30  <Kjetil> no! You will break the internets!
19:51:13  * bolli watches various ISPs explode...
19:52:19  <SquireJames> The manual says this:-
19:52:20  <SquireJames> --------------------------------------------------------- GCC USERS ......................................................... There is a very simple makefile that compiles all libraries and exes from the root of the project run 'make'  for 32 bits systems   $ make   for 64 bits systems   $ make sq64
19:52:43  <SquireJames> which is what I ran, from a command prompt in that folder, I ran hello.nut make sq64
19:54:36  <SquireJames> Oh great, a lightbulb turns on, this damned thing isn't compiled
19:55:01  <andythenorth> it is once you've compiled it ;)
19:55:13  <SquireJames> So I need to know C++ to compile Squirrel, to practice Squirrel, to make game scripts. Phew!
19:56:19  <Alberth> 'know' is a big word for being able to compile it :)
19:56:48  <bolli> I don't find C++ that hard a language to code in personally :/
19:57:01  <andythenorth> you don't need to know C++ to run make
19:57:03  <bolli> easier than, say Python or Ruby....
19:57:06  * andythenorth is proof of that
19:57:20  * andythenorth is currently angry that make is missing from OS X 10.7
19:57:45  <Alberth> bolli: ever tried programming a template? :D
19:58:08  <Kjetil> Install it make? Install another OS?
19:58:17  <Kjetil> s/it//
19:58:23  <bolli> ?
19:58:23  <SquireJames> True, but I need to have VisualC++ on my PC to compile it, and I am assuming that it isn't free
19:58:35  * andythenorth installs make using the obvious GUI tool :(
19:58:43  * andythenorth keeps expecting things to be harder than they are
19:58:55  <Kjetil> Visual C++ Express is free
19:59:08  <andythenorth> but I have rejected 4GB of Apple developer docs that XCode also tried to install :P
19:59:17  <SquireJames> Really? alright then, here goes
19:59:34  <bolli> Thats what I dislike about systems that spend millions designing GUIs. You end up not being able to find anything. Bring back DOS!
19:59:36  <andythenorth> bolli: yeah, that was the solution :)
19:59:49  <andythenorth> I assumed it was harder than 'google answer' :P
20:00:08  <bolli> Thats the 5th result for "make osx 10.7" on google :p
20:00:45  <andythenorth> ah
20:00:53  <andythenorth> I could have just fixed a path to my existing tools apparently
20:01:59  <SquireJames> I managed to find a binary that someone compiled
20:02:29  <SquireJames> means all I need do is run cmd, sq -c hello.nut , which I did, and it made a file called out.cnut
20:02:40  <andythenorth> this mac is seriously seriously faster than my old one :o
20:03:20  <andythenorth> it's only .2GHZ faster on paper
20:03:57  <bolli> but surely its about processor design rather than just how many GHZ it has?
20:05:35  <andythenorth> last one was i7, this one is i7
20:09:25  <bolli> but aren't we on the 2nd i7 now?
20:09:35  <bolli> One ivy bridge, one sandy?
20:14:28  <planetmaker> yeah.... design matters nowadays much more than clock speed. And maybe number cores
20:14:46  * planetmaker waits impatiently for his i7, too
20:15:08  * bolli keeps dreaming of being able to afford an i7
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20:21:00  <frosch123> night
20:21:03  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:23:02  <Rubidium> there are ones for less than 60$ on ebay
20:23:26  *** Pixa [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:27:29  <andythenorth> blearh
20:27:32  <andythenorth> even FF is fast :O
20:30:06  <Rubidium> you should be using safari
20:30:59  <andythenorth> I use that for browswing
20:31:04  <andythenorth> FF is for making internets
20:35:15  <bolli> Hmm. Maybe I underestimated how hard a metal effect is in 8 bit :|
20:39:59  <SquireJames> 8 bit metal... I'm now picturing Metallica on a SNES
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20:49:41  * bolli pretends he knows what a SNES is and nods
20:50:10  <KenjiE20> aaaand now I feel ancient
20:51:09  <bolli> I've never been into games consoles...
20:51:48  <Alberth> Euhm, wikipedia says that SNES was a 16 but system
20:52:13  * Alberth was thinking about an 8 bit 6502 with a whopping 2MHz :p
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20:53:13  <bolli> I will admit to owning a Genesis though....
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21:31:00  <Fremen> yay needed half a day to make 1 railroad loop of 12000 rails :p
21:31:14  <rails> i did what now
21:31:16  <rails> oh
21:31:17  <rails> nvm
21:31:23  <Fremen> hah :p
21:38:56  <Alberth> I needed a full day to make a patch of about 100KB. does that count ?
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22:21:24  <SquireJames> Correction then, NES, not SNES :)
22:23:42  <__ln__> neil armstrong is dead
22:25:44  <SquireJames> yup
22:26:46  <Terkhen> yes :(
22:28:45  <planetmaker> oh :-(
22:28:49  <planetmaker> sad day
22:36:54  <Terkhen> good night
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23:56:41  <Wolf01> 'night
23:56:48  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
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