Log for #openttd on 28th August 2012:
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07:07:36  <andythenorth> we *should* remove the ability to change grfs in game
07:07:36  <andythenorth> newgrfs are done
07:07:36  <andythenorth> we have enough
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07:11:27  <planetmaker> yes. Especially as updating a newgrf for a newgrf developer still would work
07:11:27  <planetmaker> just overwrite the file and keep testing
07:11:27  <andythenorth> I'd just patch to put changing grfs back in :P
07:11:27  <planetmaker> which is from my POV the most often used thing
07:11:27  <andythenorth> we just move the problem upstream to 'people who are capable of patching' :P
07:12:06  <planetmaker> is the lazy way, could also be like
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07:13:21  <andythenorth> he
07:13:28  * andythenorth thinks of evil
07:13:37  <andythenorth> invert the mouse if newgrfs are changed :P
07:13:42  <andythenorth> or the palette :P
07:13:58  <planetmaker> too much trouble
07:13:58  <andythenorth> or put a scrolling marquee across the middle of the screen
07:14:16  <Supercheese> Set the music to Rickroll.midi
07:14:40  <Supercheese> and still disallow changes :P
07:14:52  <andythenorth> make it show goatse :P
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07:43:45  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:27:05  <dihedral> greetings
08:27:44  <Terkhen> hi dihedral
08:29:33  <dihedral> :-)
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08:41:12  <NGC3982> What's a good morning greeting in dutch?
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08:43:07  <V453000> floods!
08:43:12  <V453000> or something like that
08:43:23  <V453000> everybody wakes up to that
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08:50:52  <planetmaker> Terkhen, we really need the new scenario style ;-) Then we can forbid newgrf changes ... candy and stick ;-)
08:51:19  <bolli> Hmm
08:51:23  <planetmaker> and possibly frosch's newgrf sandbox
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08:51:44  <bolli> A dedicated server has the line "Killed" at the end of the log, any idea what that means?
08:52:28  <Terkhen> I know, last sunday I almost finished the first batch of codechanges
08:52:50  <planetmaker> bolli, it just means that. terminated by the OS
08:52:50  <Terkhen> it's going slow but I want it to be in 1.3.X
08:53:04  <bolli> Hmm, how strange...
08:53:15  <Terkhen> but as usual no promises
08:53:34  <bolli> so something has zapped all my ottd servers? :|
08:53:47  <planetmaker> of course not, Terkhen  :-)
08:53:56  <planetmaker> bolli, I'd think so
08:54:05  <planetmaker> but... you might paste the log somewhere
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09:15:16  <NGC3982> Op je gezondheid!
09:15:43  <NGC3982> 'Gezondheid' sounds suspicially alike gesundheit.
09:15:59  <NGC3982> Ah, both describes health.
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09:32:37  <peter1138> Xorg ... 2.2 GB resident. Useful o_O
09:33:14  <Terkhen> heh
09:34:30  <peter1138> Along with a virtual machine, and monodevelop also using up 2 GB for no reason, I have run out of 8GB RAM...
09:36:41  <NGC3982> Ew.
09:46:03  <peter1138> ?
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09:52:19  <NGC3982> That sounds like a lot
09:52:46  <NGC3982> ..was my point.
09:52:46  <NGC3982> :=P
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10:59:25  <drac_boy> hi
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13:41:23  <thomas001> Hello, i'd like to refit my trains in a depot. as my station is pretty heavy loaded i want to use multiple depots for the refitting, but unfortunately i cannot figure out how to do this, as i can only specify a single depot in a train's schedule. Is there a way to use several depots for refitting?
13:42:19  <Eddi|zuHause> there is a "goto nearest depot" option
13:42:58  <Eddi|zuHause> which is affected by signals and track occupation
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13:43:53  <thomas001> oh...but if all my depots for refitting are full, then the train will go to some depot far away?
13:44:16  <Eddi|zuHause> no, there is a maximum distance
13:44:28  <planetmaker> depots cannot be overfull, though
13:44:46  <planetmaker> each depot has an infinite amount of space... or at least for as many trains as you're allowed
13:45:15  <Eddi|zuHause> but it might not choose the one that's gonna be free next in that case
13:45:31  <thomas001> yes i meant if i have for example 2 depots, and in both depots a train is entering or exiting...then a third train comes and executes "go to nearest depot"...will it go do a depot far away?
13:46:15  <planetmaker> it will not unconditionally find another depot. Whatever the pathfinder finds the "cheapest"
13:46:54  <thomas001> hmm okay, thank you
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13:48:29  <michi_cc> thomas001: Load a NewGRF that supports autorefit and you might not need a depot anymore ;)
13:48:50  <thomas001> but then the challenge is gone ;)
13:51:19  <planetmaker> Use the NoCarGoal game script... and the pressure is back on ;-) (with the right parameters)
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14:05:59  <Belugas> hello
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14:50:44  <y2000rtc> hi all
14:52:49  <y2000rtc> I have question for last versions of OpenTTD. It is possible to have any rails only with vagons? I mean for nice graphics.
14:53:13  <y2000rtc> Don't anybody know?
14:54:40  <lugo> there's an invisible engine grf
14:55:54  <y2000rtc> Ok, perfect lugo. Thanks a lot.
14:56:42  <y2000rtc> Don't you have any similar tips for better graphics? :o)
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15:06:00  <Fremen> depends what you want
15:06:12  <Fremen> there is so many stuff
15:13:34  <planetmaker> y2000rtc: your "better" might not be my "better"
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15:18:30  <SpComb>  This security update fixes CVE-2012-3436 (Denial of service (server) using ships on half tiles and landscaping).
15:18:36  <SpComb> somehow that's amusing :)
15:22:29  <planetmaker> in what respect?
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15:36:37  <SpComb> taken out of context
15:36:45  <SpComb> DoS attack using ships
15:38:02  <SpComb> maybe someone should check that apache isn't vulnerable to ships on half-tiles as well? :)
15:38:48  <planetmaker> hehe
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17:41:57  <TrueBrain> hi Alberth
17:42:17  <Alberth> TrueBrain here!  hi hi!
17:43:29  <Alberth> the biggest news seems to be a never ending thread about newgrf changing :(
17:43:50  <TrueBrain> popcorn with a capital P
17:44:50  <Alberth> in that case, just hit CAPS-LOCK :p
17:47:05  <Alberth> this morning I wondered about handling processing of nested if/elif/else/endif constructs, and ended with a nice macro idea for nml. Not sure that is a good sign :)
17:47:36  <TrueBrain> tells me you are bored :P
17:48:32  <Alberth> yeah, writing documentation all day about stuff you know in full detail already is not really inspiring :)
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17:49:22  <Yexo> is writing documentation ever inspiring?
17:49:44  <Alberth> when it helps to shape your ideas, it is
17:50:29  <Alberth> except those are usually mostly drawing with boxes and arrows and random words sprinkled around ;)
17:50:51  <Yexo> yep, I know that kind of "documentation" :p
17:50:53  <peter1138> newgrf changing?
17:51:11  <TrueBrain> yeah, it is becoming old
17:51:12  <TrueBrain> (hihi)
17:51:50  <peter1138> oh, changing a newgrf
17:51:59  <peter1138> in game
17:52:04  * Alberth nods
17:55:55  * NGC3982 tried that once.
17:56:10  <Alberth> nodding?
17:56:18  <TrueBrain> *nods*
17:56:19  <NGC3982> That too.
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18:11:22  <Belugas> [13:14] <@Yexo> is writing documentation ever inspiring?  <-- good exercise of code review, in fact, at least for me :)
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18:14:16  <Belugas> hello peter1138 :)
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18:15:26  <Wolf01> HELO
18:18:06  <Alberth> 250 Hello Wolf01
18:18:26  <TrueBrain> 503 Service Temporary Not Available
18:18:32  <TrueBrain> :D
18:18:50  <Wolf01> ahahah
18:19:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24501 /trunk/src/lang/russian.txt:
18:19:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:19:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by kuriatoru
18:20:35  <Alberth> Nice, you repaired the CIA
18:21:10  <Wolf01> I'm always in trouble when I need to give the correct response with ajax calls :P
18:22:09  <Alberth> :)
18:22:35  <Zuu> And there are some interesting odd response codes in the spec.
18:23:03  <Wolf01> but never the one you need to
18:26:14  <frosch123> hmm, it's tuesday...
18:26:24  <frosch123> i thought it was wednesday for sure
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18:27:04  <Alberth> mahybe you jumped back a day?
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19:18:37  <Belugas> andythenorth, I do second tyour motion
19:18:45  <andythenorth> remove newgrf?
19:18:47  <Belugas> bu but but'll be out of job then!
19:18:51  <andythenorth> don't care
19:18:52  <Belugas> yeah
19:19:00  <andythenorth> bored of the whole stupid debate
19:19:06  <Belugas> quite
19:19:12  <andythenorth> I nearly flamed nearly every respondent to that thread
19:19:22  <andythenorth> but I'm doing some work instead :P
19:19:40  <andythenorth> there is nothing much gained by me being a wanker :P
19:19:42  <Belugas> i have to say, i got bored as well...
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19:20:03  <Hyronymus> Wicked
19:20:15  <Hyronymus> IRC through Thunderbird
19:21:20  <andythenorth> hmm
19:21:22  <andythenorth> one proposal
19:21:31  <andythenorth> instead of developer tools, rename the setting 'fuck_my_game'
19:21:41  <andythenorth> 'fuck_my_game' = 1
19:21:50  <Belugas> :)
19:21:58  <andythenorth> other ideas:
19:22:15  <andythenorth> - random timer, game will quit after n minutes if developer tools is on
19:22:37  <andythenorth> - detect changed newgrfs, randomly clear 100 tiles on every game tick
19:22:51  <andythenorth> basically we should introduce loads of deliberate bugs
19:22:53  <andythenorth> large huge bugs
19:23:05  <andythenorth> players will start ascribing them to 'oh, I changed newgrfs'
19:23:40  <andythenorth> if all players get these bugs from 'changed newgrfs'...then forum regulars will start spreading the news that 'changing newgrfs is bad'
19:23:59  <andythenorth> meanwhile we'll recognise the enormouse bugs and close them as 'changed newgrfs'
19:24:29  <andythenorth> and I will patch my build to ignore the 'bugs' so I can actually write fricking newgrf
19:24:39  <andythenorth> seriously, developer tools should require recompiling openttd
19:26:09  <Yexo> that's feasible for you, but why should an AI or newgrf developer have to recompile openttd?
19:26:34  <Alberth> patch at binary level is fine too :D
19:26:59  <Yexo> hmm, force a recompile, provide binaries that enable it but disable networking for those
19:27:10  <Yexo> means no servers running it, and easy to identify in bug reports
19:28:06  <Alberth> disable saving :)
19:28:11  <Yexo> :)
19:28:19  <Yexo> I like that :)
19:29:15  <Alberth> error message "Cannot save game, you have enabled changing of newgrfs"
19:29:34  <Alberth> s/changing of newgrfs/developer tools/
19:29:50  <andythenorth> devkit
19:30:03  <andythenorth> turn off saving +1
19:30:11  <andythenorth> infinite money immediately
19:30:34  <andythenorth> (I have so pressed 'increase money by £10m *so* many times while testing FIRS) :P
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19:31:03  <andythenorth> disable saving would make it hard to share bugs :P
19:31:06  <andythenorth> but meh
19:32:27  <Alberth> tbh it is quite a long time ago since the previous thread
19:32:39  <Alberth> perhaps the problem is declining?
19:32:52  <Alberth> the current thread is just running out of control
19:33:28  <andythenorth> I think there are a few of us looking for an argument :P
19:35:58  <andythenorth> I am not trolling in that thread btw, I am genuinely annoyed :)
19:36:25  <andythenorth> I infer a sense of entitlement from some players (who don't contribute anything) that annoys me :P
19:37:21  <Alberth> everybody has an opinion about it and thinks it's interesting to say it
19:37:50  <Alberth> it's just one big mess of opinions without any foundation
19:37:52  * Rubidium agrees with andythenorth's last point
19:39:19  <Rubidium> though I wonder whether people realise what gets axed if everything that requires NewGRFs is axed
19:40:00  <Alberth> it's safe to assume they don't know :)
19:40:46  <Rubidium> I'd start with bringing signals back to just one type
19:41:16  <Rubidium> and disabling of autorail
19:42:10  <frosch123> next is build on slopes :)
19:42:35  <Belugas> just play plain TTD ;)
19:42:48  <Alberth> just revert to r1 :)
19:43:08  <andythenorth> removing things is fun
19:43:16  * andythenorth is removing things from another app at the moment
19:43:38  <frosch123> you can release the old app next year with lots of new featues
19:43:54  <frosch123> just like pricing is made at supermarkets :)
19:43:54  <andythenorth> just make a paid version :P
19:44:00  <andythenorth> we can do paid support
19:44:04  <andythenorth> like red hat and such
19:44:06  <andythenorth> or mysql
19:44:30  <andythenorth> we can employ someone to run ZenDesk
19:44:43  <andythenorth> paid version will allow changing newgrfs in game
19:44:50  <andythenorth> if you report broken
19:45:20  <andythenorth> "You changed newgrfs in game, this feature is unsupported, there is no further help available at this time.  Check back in future to see if this issue has been updated"
19:53:32  <frosch123> how much does it cost to call you and ask why one cannot change grfs in game?
19:53:55  <frosch123> how many calls of that type can you handle per hour?
19:54:05  <frosch123> how many hours per week?
19:54:10  *** Stimrol [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:55:45  *** Stimrol [] has joined #openttd
19:56:46  <andythenorth> I would employ someone
19:56:57  <andythenorth> min. wage for 16 year olds is about £3.50 :P
19:57:06  <andythenorth> we offer helpdesk office hours only :P
19:57:08  <andythenorth> (UK time)
19:57:55  <andythenorth>
19:57:59  <andythenorth> ferries!
19:59:11  <frosch123> is that 8/5 support?
19:59:22  <Rubidium> wow... that rail looks bad
19:59:43  *** George [~George@] has joined #openttd
20:00:28  <andythenorth> frosch123: 9-5
20:00:38  <andythenorth> how many paying players do we need?
20:00:52  <andythenorth> how much is a monthly support contract?  €10?
20:00:58  <andythenorth> €5?
20:01:16  <andythenorth> support is weekdays only
20:01:38  <andythenorth> @calc 3.5 * 8 * 21
20:01:38  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 588
20:01:49  <andythenorth> @calc 588 / 3
20:01:49  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 196
20:01:51  <andythenorth> hmm
20:01:57  <andythenorth> 196 paying players at £3 ea
20:02:01  <andythenorth> + paypal fees
20:02:09  <andythenorth> + zendesk subscription
20:02:21  <andythenorth> + billing, taxes, bank charges
20:02:35  <andythenorth> + employer's liability insurance, indemnity insurance
20:02:44  <andythenorth> + computer, desk + chair
20:02:51  <andythenorth> + training
20:02:58  <andythenorth> + cover for holidays + sickness
20:03:07  <andythenorth> running a business is easy :)
20:04:32  <andythenorth> we probably need about £50k / year revenue and it will work
20:07:05  *** Xaroth [] has joined #openttd
20:07:44  *** Xaroth is now known as Guest4791
20:14:32  <__ln__> hello from baile atha cliath
20:26:36  <NGC3982> Wat the who now?
20:27:22  *** Chris_Booth [] has joined #openttd
20:33:13  <andythenorth> Terkhen: just found your sig link :)
20:34:28  <Eddi|zuHause> who put andythenorth in troll mode?
20:35:19  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that sounds irish
20:35:39  <__ln__> it is
20:37:16  *** thomas001 [] has joined #openttd
20:37:18  <__ln__> "dublin" in englandese
20:38:16  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I found it quite relevant to many OpenTTD discussions
20:39:30  <andythenorth> +1
20:40:12  *** Frankr [] has joined #openttd
20:46:02  *** thomas001 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:49:10  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I aksed myself the same question :)
20:50:13  <andythenorth> trolling?
20:50:32  <andythenorth> nobody can ever tell what I am serious about, and when I am simply talking crap because I like the sound of it :(
20:50:37  <andythenorth> even my wife :P
20:50:44  <TrueBrain> the latter is what we call trolling :)
20:50:49  <TrueBrain> and I doubt you were serious
20:50:54  <TrueBrain> so we did manage to find the difference ;)
20:51:09  <andythenorth> I was serious about locking newgrf tools
20:51:16  <andythenorth> I was less serious about paid openttd
20:51:23  <TrueBrain> I meant your reply ;)
20:51:23  <andythenorth> mostly because I don't think it's profitable :P
20:51:25  <TrueBrain> in a thread :D
20:51:30  <andythenorth> delete all newgrf?
20:51:34  <TrueBrain> yes!
20:51:38  <andythenorth> seriously, why not? :o
20:51:43  <andythenorth> what would we lose?
20:51:51  <TrueBrain> you!
20:51:55  <andythenorth> I am playing GS
20:52:12  <andythenorth> with default industries :P
20:52:42  <andythenorth> do other games allow adding / removing mods while a game is running?
20:52:52  <TrueBrain> nope
20:52:55  <TrueBrain> rarely
20:53:21  <andythenorth> "I would like to change my RAM chips while my computer is running please"
20:53:34  <TrueBrain> most games you have to cycle
20:53:37  <andythenorth> incidentally I pulled a SATA drive out from a running mac on saturday with no ill-effects :P
20:53:47  <andythenorth> it didn't keep running so much :P
20:53:54  <andythenorth> I guess they're hot-swap
20:54:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i once came up with the likeness of exchanging the engine while driving on the motorway.
20:54:02  <TrueBrain> SATA is hot swap :)
20:54:05  <TrueBrain> I pull it all the time :)
20:54:12  <andythenorth> good :)
20:54:36  <andythenorth> after I did it, I had a small moment of 'fuck, now I have three broken macs instead of one' :P
20:54:43  <Eddi|zuHause> you should make sure to unmount the drive first, because the filesystem is usually not hotplug :p
20:54:45  <andythenorth> as I also plugged in another drive :P
20:55:54  <michi_cc> You can buy machines with hot-swap RAM if you want. It's not *that* exotic anymore.
20:56:07  <TrueBrain> how is it useful?
20:56:31  <andythenorth> I kind of wonder where your data goes during the swap :P
20:56:55  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't want to shut down your multi-billion-dollars-per-second banking computer just to exchange a broken ram module
20:57:01  <michi_cc> Online capacity grow or replacement of modules with increasing errors.
20:57:24  <michi_cc> andythenorth: It's called RAIM (i.e. a RAID for memory).
20:57:37  *** Supercheese [~Password4@] has joined #openttd
20:57:43  <andythenorth> makes sense
20:57:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you obviously want some redundancy before trying that :)
20:58:21  <TrueBrain> that exists? Lolz :)
20:58:26  <TrueBrain> sounds rather useless, with ECC etc :P
20:59:52  <michi_cc> Rather ECC sound quite useless to me. Single bit error correction, two bit error detection (won't get you you're data back) and from three errors you're screwed. If a RAM really goes bad, it's probably going to be the whole IC.
21:00:32  <TrueBrain> yup
21:00:37  <TrueBrain> at least it detects it :D
21:03:43  *** Hyronymus [] has quit [Quit: Hyronymus]
21:08:23  *** drac_boy [] has joined #openttd
21:08:40  <drac_boy> hi
21:09:41  <Terkhen> hi drac_boy
21:10:34  <frosch123> night
21:10:37  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:11:00  <drac_boy> hi Terkhen how're you?
21:14:21  <Terkhen> a bit sleepy already
21:14:33  <Terkhen> you?
21:16:27  <drac_boy> doing ok, just online for a bit now :)
21:23:52  <Terkhen> good night
21:26:09  *** KenjiE20 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:26:14  *** Asteconn [] has joined #openttd
21:26:18  <Asteconn> Greetings
21:26:23  <Asteconn> My name is not Dave
21:26:29  *** KenjiE20 [] has joined #openttd
21:26:44  *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@] has joined #openttd
21:27:40  *** valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
21:28:24  <Asteconn> Have I joined in the middle of a netsplit?
21:28:27  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the wine way of "uninstalling" stuff?
21:34:52  <andythenorth> rm
21:34:58  <andythenorth> rm all the things!
21:35:02  * andythenorth is going to sleep
21:35:05  <Rubidium> Asteconn: most of the people do not say anything at all in here, furthermore it's late at night for a quite significant part of the community
21:35:11  <andythenorth> I am a bad person when I have not enough sleep
21:35:26  <andythenorth> this channel is mostly quiet, apart from the bit that is me
21:35:33  <Asteconn> Rubidium: Oh no not that - I meant the slew of people rejoining at once
21:35:35  <Supercheese> o rly?
21:35:37  <andythenorth> I should get my own channel to monologue in
21:35:43  <andythenorth> #andythenorth
21:35:44  <Supercheese> That's called a blog
21:35:46  <Asteconn> So I was all "hmmmmmmmm... o.ÃŽ"
21:36:08  <andythenorth> blogs take too much effort
21:36:13  <Rubidium> three people in a minute doesn't sound netsplit-ish to me in this channel
21:36:37  <Rubidium> netsplit is more like dozens of people
21:36:44  <Asteconn> I could have been joining at the end of all of the reconnects
21:36:46  * Asteconn nods
21:37:29  <Asteconn> I decided firstly that I needed to lurk moar
21:38:31  <Asteconn> I also came along to see if I could pick someone's brains about ways to manage the crossovers for a 6-line terminus, but I think I have that nailed now ^_^
21:46:12  <andythenorth> bedtime
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21:46:52  <Asteconn> I find it quite annoying when a new train is released and is at a worse reliability rating than the one(s) it replaced
21:47:24  <Supercheese> I never play with breakdowns, so reliability doesn't really matter to me...
21:49:15  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:50:18  <drac_boy> Asteconn six lines...why?
21:50:46  <Asteconn> I've got four different routes converging on the same station
21:51:03  <Asteconn> I find playing without reliability to not be as fun =3
21:51:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Asteconn: new trains need time to get their reliability up
21:52:18  <Asteconn> Oh yes, I know =] The HST has been out for 3 years now? And it's at 81%. The Merchant Navies I was running before were all 98%
21:53:51  <Alberth> I usually don't care the early offers, not reliable enough to use
21:54:50  <Asteconn> I always try and build at least one groups worth of prototype HSTs if I can. In UKRS2 they have an awesome skin available only during that year
21:56:23  <Alberth> That's nice
21:56:43  <Eddi|zuHause> "wine uninstaller" was the answer to my previous question
21:56:53  <Alberth> I don't use many newgrfs, vehicle newgrfs usually come with too much choice for me
21:56:53  <Eddi|zuHause> (just for reference)
21:57:30  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: aka 'rm' ? :)
21:57:49  <Eddi|zuHause> "rm" doesn't clean out the registry and stuff :)
21:58:24  <Alberth> use it more liberally, and you'll find it cleans very well :D
21:58:32  <Alberth> good night all
21:58:35  <Asteconn> I prefer the choice actually
21:58:39  <Asteconn> Oíche mhaith agat ^^
21:58:48  <Asteconn> But yes
21:59:01  <Alberth> I like building networks more than running trains
21:59:04  <Asteconn> Makes planning new lines a little more interesting
21:59:12  <Asteconn> I like the balance
21:59:21  <Asteconn> I use NuTracks also
21:59:25  <Alberth> perhaps I should try it again some time
21:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i found like 7GiB worth of newly freed space :)
22:00:40  *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has left #openttd []
22:01:38  <Asteconn> Woo :D
22:01:52  <Asteconn> I discovered that I had an entire hard drive not plummed in once
22:02:11  <Wolf01> 'night
22:02:13  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
22:02:25  * drac_boy prefers real steam locomotives and some actual lowspeed electrics
22:02:45  <drac_boy> so original vehicles are so out of the question :p  especially what with no tenders for former and a lack of latter
22:02:46  <drac_boy> :)
22:03:18  <Asteconn> =3
22:03:28  <Eddi|zuHause> indeed, the original vehicles are amazingly boring
22:03:34  <Asteconn> Yes
22:03:41  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea how i ever could like such a game :p
22:03:42  <Asteconn> Although they're very adequate for newbies
22:03:45  <Asteconn> imho
22:04:49  <Asteconn> I quite like the choice between 3rd rail and overhead electrics too
22:05:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't really get warm with UKRS, though
22:05:17  <Asteconn> I played the original UKRS for a long time
22:05:26  <Asteconn> I still prefer the scaling of the original
22:05:42  <drac_boy> asteconn I never liked ukrs too much, worser with the newer version of ukrs1 ... ukrs2 is hmm well a little better but still meh
22:05:44  <drac_boy> thats me tho
22:05:50  <Asteconn> lol
22:05:57  <Asteconn> I quite liked UKRS1 actually
22:06:05  *** Chris_Booth [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 15.0/20120821170930]]
22:06:14  <Asteconn> Which do you use?
22:07:00  <drac_boy> dbsetxl, japanset, pineapple+extension, canset, and mm still trying that swiss one once in a while but they still have a bit more work to go
22:09:45  <Asteconn> blimey lol
22:09:54  <Asteconn> I'm happy with just the UKRS =3
22:10:12  <Asteconn> I also think that trains look /really/ strange if their fronts aren't yellow
22:10:58  <drac_boy> Asteconn well tbh I prefer to have short infrequent trains so the shrunk capacity that ukrs1/2 has is just a major throwoff tbh
22:11:36  <Asteconn> Does it have shrunk capacity? o.ÃŽ
22:11:57  *** thomas001 [] has joined #openttd
22:12:17  <drac_boy> nothing than finding that for freight starts your 1920 german train only has a short single station platform while your 1940 british doubleheaded train has a pair of long platforms
22:12:32  <drac_boy> and the funny thing is the info window shows similar capacity for both trains :-|
22:12:46  <drac_boy> but to our own :)
22:14:50  <Asteconn> xD
22:17:07  <drac_boy> Asteconn and btw one small thing to think about...
22:17:15  <Asteconn> ?
22:17:43  <drac_boy> why it it that for the whole ukrs thing .. only the ukrs1 expansion even had one single electric locomotive for 1920 .. and a slow freight drag type at it?
22:18:04  <drac_boy> nothing else till you wait till 1960 which by then the earlier start date is a bit pointless :)
22:18:44  <drac_boy> of course I haven't bothered reading the long ukrs addon thread on forum so maybe something is in the idea tho
22:20:27  <Asteconn> UKRS1 had two early electrics - one for freight and one for express stuff - they were 1925ish iirc
22:20:53  <drac_boy> you're thinking of the one I mentioned which was actually 1914 btw
22:21:00  <Supercheese> UKRS 2 has those, the EF1 and EE1
22:21:21  <Supercheese> Well, the addon set does
22:21:52  <Supercheese>
22:22:00  <drac_boy> and just for the contrast sake .. start with dbsetxl and you have 60-90km/h boxcabs already, and the crocodile for medium speed heavy trains is due by then as well.  or japan in 1920 well...some unusual electric locos aside to the typical emus
22:22:41  <drac_boy> canset of course was just like the real canada.. electrics in 1920 was only on interurban or local freights up to till BC finally did their electric locos over the mountain
22:23:52  <Asteconn> There's the EM1 and EM2 released in 1941 and 1953 too. And of course you get a really early 3rd rail passenger vehicle too
22:24:23  <drac_boy> mm well 1920>1941 is a rather long wait to me? heh :)
22:26:17  <Eddi|zuHause> DBSet is missing some of the pre-war high end electric engines
22:26:40  <Eddi|zuHause> like the E04 (130km/h) and E18 (150km/h)
22:26:48  <drac_boy> I think that was on purpose due to limiting ids to keep space for much later locos
22:27:06  <drac_boy> although I've seen two supposedly dbsetxl addons in the banana list tho
22:27:12  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the DBSet 0.9 is supposed to have both of them
22:28:10  <drac_boy> and heh to be honest I sometimes find myself smacking into the vehicles sprite limit at times as well (not entirely related to but still linked to dbsetxl nevertheless)
22:28:28  <Asteconn> Depends on the locomotive really. I only ever use the EM1 and the EF1 as freight haulers. If the EM1 is worthwhile I'll always use them for slow coal trains.
22:28:37  <Eddi|zuHause> what sprite limit?
22:28:55  <drac_boy> Asteconn either way sometimes if you're really into pax and not so much for freights you really should be trying the whole set of japan grfs ... you'll find enough trains to rush or pamper passengers with :P
22:29:00  <drac_boy> thats my own thought tho ;)
22:29:22  <drac_boy> rush = commuter trains .. pamper = express trains ... just in case you were lost :)
22:31:01  <Asteconn> lol
22:31:03  <drac_boy> oh Asteconn before I almost forgot, the real JNR had some interesting historic tidbits as well. I've been saving some nice photos as well
22:31:13  <Asteconn> Fair enough =]
22:31:41  <drac_boy> like eg a string of special container wagons behind everyday steam power? japan somehow didn't think that was usual considering they ran steam well into the 1970s and a little bit of 1980s anyway :)
22:31:55  <drac_boy> in any other countries that would had already been diesel or electric power instead
22:32:00  <Asteconn> I use either Suburbans or Panniers for commuter and rural lines, and usually steam for express ones, but depending on the reliabilities of the 90mph+ engines
22:32:28  <drac_boy> Asteconn heh well japan train set had it right when they used different carriages for commuters verus express ...
22:32:36  <Asteconn> lol
22:32:55  <drac_boy> because to be is always spaced seats with no standing space .. and only 2-4 doors .. while commuter is standing space with several sets of doors
22:33:12  <drac_boy> I don't know of any other train grfs that has this seperation yet
22:34:18  <drac_boy> its no wonder that the short commuter emu can grab 200 passengers in a few ticks then run off while the medium express train takes a few game days to load 200 on the other hand
22:34:22  <drac_boy> just saying :)
22:34:27  <Asteconn> You get the different carriage types in UKRS2
22:34:49  <Asteconn> Although generally, with a few exceptions for later trains, they're interchangable
22:35:16  <drac_boy> hmm so they have any with 6 or 8 sets of doors in ukrs2? just wondering
22:35:31  <Asteconn> But I wouldn't really want to put Clerestory carriages on a train that can go faster than 80
22:35:53  <drac_boy> Asteconn 80km or 80mph?
22:35:59  <Asteconn> mph
22:36:51  <drac_boy> hmm yeah 140km/h might be a really good time to have a modern streamlined steel carriage instead
22:36:58  *** Goulp [] has joined #openttd
22:37:06  <Asteconn> There are yes, but functionally they're not really much different
22:37:06  <Asteconn> Although if you couple up a standard carriage to something like the AM10, its loading time drops quite a bit
22:37:06  *** Muxy [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:37:06  <Asteconn> They had multiple doors on
22:37:09  <drac_boy> otherwise for 100km/h it didn't really matter, thats what a lot of the old express trains ran at
22:37:56  <Asteconn> yeah
22:38:10  <Asteconn> The UKRS has articulated carriages for 120mph running
22:38:26  <drac_boy> nothing like an PRR owned atlantic (a 4-4-2 if you would) with large drivers doing a bit over 100km/h with several heavyweight wagons in tow
22:39:30  <drac_boy> Asteconn what did you think of the 2-6-4T in ukrs btw?
22:39:40  <NGC3982> I don't get it.
22:39:51  <NGC3982> When can i use the logic engine?
22:39:58  <NGC3982> I can't seem to find it.
22:40:04  <drac_boy> you talking of the NUTS set ngc3982?
22:40:30  <Asteconn> I find the 2-6-4 very handy if its reliable enough
22:40:42  <NGC3982> No, the logic engine from the logic engine grf.
22:41:01  <Asteconn> Have you got the thing enabled?
22:41:10  <Asteconn> Also - try putting it at the top of your GRFs list
22:41:44  <drac_boy> Asteconn mm well I am a little crazy for tank locomotives at times :->
22:41:51  <Asteconn> lol
22:41:51  <NGC3982> Bah, im in the middle of a server game.
22:41:59  <Asteconn> D'oh! D:
22:42:09  <NGC3982> Oh, never mind
22:42:10  <NGC3982> I found it
22:42:14  <drac_boy> Asteconn after all when compared to tender you have slight shorter train with a bit higher tractive possible as well
22:42:25  <drac_boy> one more wagon on a level route pretty easily
22:42:42  <Asteconn> Depends if I'm after speed or not, and if it's at all reliable
22:42:43  *** pugi [] has quit []
22:43:03  <Asteconn> Can't be doing with anything less than 80%, and I try to avoid anything less than 85%
22:43:07  <drac_boy> eg 1700hp 140kN and take 1.7 tiles length verus 1700hp 154kN and barely fit within one tile
22:43:26  <Asteconn> Which engine are you comparing it to?
22:43:53  <drac_boy> and I always run anything thats between 70% to 99% straight out of the depot ... after all my trains almost always get serviced each turn anyway
22:44:04  <drac_boy> 'which engine'? between a tender and tank version of the same chassis ofc
22:44:31  <Asteconn> Oooh right right
22:44:40  <drac_boy> :)
22:45:08  <Asteconn> I don't have service orders on mine - I just pepper my lines with depots between stations
22:45:10  <Asteconn> =3
22:45:19  <drac_boy> heh I don't have any orders neither actually
22:45:29  <drac_boy> its a matter of placement of the right signals ;)
22:45:33  <Asteconn> I tell you one engine that /is/ quite remarkable
22:45:37  <Asteconn> The Leader
22:45:56  <Asteconn> Especially its early release date
22:46:13  <drac_boy> btw I know I'm being a bit crazy here but I always thought that a ukrs2 expansion (or ukrs3 either way) should include the one infamous locomotive that got axed due to politics
22:46:22  <Asteconn> the APT?
22:46:51  <drac_boy> you want to guess what looked like a diesel locomotive but had more chunky trucks ... and actually was a steam locomotive on the inside of the body? :P
22:46:57  *** sla_ro|master [slaco@] has quit [Quit: DANGER is OFFLINE DANGER]
22:47:27  <drac_boy> I keep forgetting the name for that one-off locomotive tho :/
22:47:44  <drac_boy> politics didn't want 'new' steam locomotives so that was what caused its short life
22:47:53  <Asteconn> Yes that was the Leader
22:48:09  <drac_boy> oh right ok
22:48:24  <Asteconn> I thought it wasn't pursued because it was rubbish? xD
22:48:36  <drac_boy> well Asteconn I might sound crazy but there is one more conventional locomotive to think about too...
22:49:01  <Asteconn> the GT3?
22:49:10  <drac_boy> the uk garrats ... sure they may have not been as reliable as any other standard steamers but could be a bonus for someone who is playing ukrs on a hilly map tho
22:49:21  <Asteconn> Ooooh righty
22:49:23  <Asteconn> Yes
22:49:24  <drac_boy> and btw sorry to stop this short but I need to afk for a while :-s
22:49:28  <Asteconn> lol
23:02:58  <Sacro> grrr, cocking php
23:03:05  <Sacro> why doesn't array_keys do what I explect
23:03:57  <glx> because it's php
23:06:11  <Sacro> Yes, I see that
23:06:37  <Sacro> All I want todo is use array_keys, pass in an array, but only select "CA_MSG", "CB_MSG" or "CC_MSG"
23:09:35  *** Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:11:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not touching php with a 30 centimeter pole
23:13:49  *** Biolunar [] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us]
23:14:43  <drac_boy> back now :)
23:14:49  <drac_boy> Asteconn still there? :)
23:18:41  * drac_boy actually uses a bit of php at times
23:18:48  <drac_boy> admittly just the basic parts
23:25:47  *** Asteconn_ [] has joined #openttd
23:26:15  <drac_boy> hey Asteconn :p
23:28:13  <Asteconn_> Greetings
23:28:28  <drac_boy> Asteconn so what happened...bad connection?
23:29:44  *** Asteconn [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:29:44  *** Asteconn_ is now known as Asteconn
23:29:56  <drac_boy> thought so
23:30:09  <drac_boy> Asteconn so about the lner garrats..heres something slight funny I recall...
23:31:10  <drac_boy> train with two U1's heading lickey incline ... failed or stalled for some reason ... so big bertha came to the assist ... was the only one time you had that many drive axles in a single train! :)
23:34:18  *** Kylie [] has joined #openttd
23:35:09  <drac_boy> Asteconn btw if you thought the Leader was unusual theres another one... at least one or more uk locomotive could burn onsite peat for fuel .. was so much cheaper for them ... the peat was more or less just a sidewaste as I recall
23:35:14  <Kylie> Question: I got 1.2.2. What are the best NewGRFs for me to get?
23:35:26  <drac_boy> Kylie what kind of networks do you generally like to run?
23:35:32  <Supercheese> That depends on your tastes
23:35:57  <Supercheese> Although I daresay most folk would agree that Av8 is the "best" aircraft set
23:36:04  <Kylie> train and bus/truck drac_boy
23:36:10  * drac_boy prefers to use russiaplanes thank you
23:36:13  <Kylie> sometimes airplane
23:36:23  <drac_boy> in lot of long trains or what? :p
23:36:36  <Kylie> doesn't matter
23:37:03  <Kylie> I like coal/passenger trins.
23:37:06  <Kylie> trains
23:37:12  <Asteconn> Kylie: Personally, run at least 1 new GRF for each transport type. I use UKRS2+, eGRVTS 1.0, Generic Tram Set, Modern Tram Set, FISH, and NuTracks
23:37:13  <drac_boy> kylie hmm well its really up to you but dbsetxl for a nice mix starting in 1920 ... japanset if you like a lot of pax ... or 2cc if you pretty much want to "sample" everything around the world
23:37:37  <Asteconn> 2CC is also a good one
23:37:47  <Asteconn> Although I don't use it myself
23:37:53  <drac_boy> problem with 2cc is its buy list is too thick .. and you have very little option in filtering it :/
23:38:02  <drac_boy> but ah well
23:38:06  <Supercheese> Best thing about NewGRFs is you can use as many as you want, up to the max allowed (~64 or so)
23:38:15  <Supercheese> So you can run, say, both Av8 and russian planes
23:38:24  <Fremen> using 2cc/eGRVTS/av8/FISH now + some new buildings, 2cc is heavy though, thinking it's not for me :p
23:38:25  <Supercheese> and as many other aircraft as you fancy
23:38:26  <Kylie> Interesting re 'subway' in 2cc
23:38:43  <drac_boy> and hmm actually I've been working on a generic world-not-so-world grf .. its still slowly coming .. but one of its main purpose is to have only a short buy list pretty much any years
23:38:52  <drac_boy> kylie..its not really subway per se :P
23:39:07  <Kylie> explain
23:39:18  <drac_boy> kylie why isn't it at least partially underground? ;)
23:39:29  <drac_boy> at least thats one good thing about Simutrans on the other hand
23:39:34  <Supercheese> You cannot do true "subways" in OTTD
23:39:54  <Supercheese> best you can do is either use extensive tunneling, which becomes a problem if you don't have signals in tunnels patch
23:40:18  <Supercheese> or hack some "road vehicles" to be just dark shadows and pretend they're really subway trains ;)
23:40:55  <Kylie> ha ha Supercheese tharts funny
23:41:51  <Asteconn> lol.
23:42:03  <Asteconn> I know that the UKRS has a 'limited list' option
23:42:15  <Asteconn> It gives you a good selection but doesn't overload you
23:42:22  <drac_boy> Asteconn btw did you know that the crocodile was not just in swizterland but also in germany as well? :)
23:42:26  <Asteconn> And removes all the restrictions with the wagons
23:42:38  <Asteconn> I did not, but that doesn't surprise me much =3
23:43:16  <drac_boy> and then there were several more country variations of the 'smaller' ones .. aka only 2 or 3 drive axles at each end and the classical long fullwidth noses
23:43:33  <drac_boy> some of the latter were diesel-hydraulic as well
23:44:10  <Asteconn> Oh! Kylie :: Another good idea - Base Costs mod
23:44:31  <Asteconn> Lets you tinker with the running costs so that you can get used to all of the new stuff without going bankrupt all the time
23:44:42  <Kylie> ah Asteconn sounds fun :P
23:45:06  * Asteconn noms chicken noodles
23:47:33  <drac_boy> I actually rather use basecost to multiply the artifically-too-low prices
23:47:43  <drac_boy> especially with airports finally costing what they really should had :P
23:50:14  *** jo2k [~Jonny@2001:4dd0:ff00:8cef:515b:752c:a2a1:726c] has joined #openttd
23:52:00  <Asteconn> lol
23:52:18  <Asteconn> Well - I found it invaluable to reducing costs and running costs whilst learning wtf I was doing
23:52:26  <drac_boy> Asteconn btw here's another one for you to think about re usa during WWII some railroads found themself short of locomotives and had to take some from another railroad .. sometimes could cause quite odd sights because the railroads were still used to personalizing their own powers whether it was from same blueprint source or not...
23:52:37  *** jo2k [~Jonny@2001:4dd0:ff00:8cef:515b:752c:a2a1:726c] has quit []
23:52:59  <drac_boy> so you could eg have a mountain mallet ending up working for a short time on the flatlands till someone finally realized how much of a slowpoke it was and got the manager to reassign it somewhere else
23:54:24  <drac_boy> many of the earlier norfolk western mallets ended up just like that .. some sold to santa fe ... too slow to keep up with any passenger trains ... moved to up ... again problem on flatland .. but moved to a different division on up and finally managed to find some decent work .. then as soon as war was over they were cut up which served things right
23:54:25  <Asteconn> :P
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23:54:38  <drac_boy> and you have to remember that norfolk western was a mountain coal railroad ;)
23:54:50  <Kylie> uh
23:54:58  <Kylie> how do i move te map
23:54:59  <Kylie> um
23:55:03  <Kylie> not the mawinone
23:55:40  <Kylie> the one accessible from the map menu called 'map of the world'
23:55:42  <Kylie> that map
23:55:43  <drac_boy> Asteconn and there were other weird things like one IC locomotive being rebuilt to new specs but it thankfully never got beyond the one-off stage because it was too light and slippery for any reasonable service :-s
23:55:46  <Kylie> how do i move it
23:56:10  <Asteconn> Right click and drag =]
23:56:20  <Asteconn> :P lol
23:56:25  <drac_boy> had barely a co-effection of like 2.x or something
23:56:28  <Kylie> ah woww
23:56:35  <Asteconn> I have no idea what that means xD
23:56:36  <drac_boy> a well balanced locomotive was 4.0 or close to it just to give you an idea
23:56:53  <Kylie> not lotsa power plants
23:56:57  <drac_boy> I'm not sure how this numbering system works but 4.0 apparently meant it was well balanced between hp, weight, and tractive
23:57:09  <drac_boy> lower meant more slippery/lighter and higher meant too much tractive for the hp it ha
23:57:12  <drac_boy> ha=had*
23:58:38  <Asteconn> How can you have 'too much' trajctive effort? :P
23:58:42  <drac_boy> so for example (as far as I know) it could be eg 1400hp over 3 axles at 90 tons ... but if you made it <1100hp instead then the coef number got higher ... change to 2-axle and make it lighter with the same 1400hp and the coef got lower
23:58:56  <drac_boy> Asteconn too much = heavy chassis with 4+ drive axles but a very small boiler to match with it
23:59:11  <Asteconn> THat just means it's slow =3
23:59:15  <drac_boy> actually happened at times ... usually had a short life
23:59:19  <drac_boy> Asteconn not really
23:59:21  <Asteconn> A lot like the 0-8-0s actually
23:59:28  <Asteconn> But they're useful /nod
23:59:33  <Asteconn> Oh?

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