Log for #openttd on 31st August 2012:
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07:25:42  <Terkhen> good morning
07:27:39  <dihedral> greetings
07:44:45  <planetmaker> hm, we really need to change the default from LAN to internet for multiplayer
07:45:01  <planetmaker> good morning :-)
08:02:17  <Muxy> planetmaker: and change "LAN" name to "LOCAL"
08:03:05  <planetmaker> people know what a LAN is... local is less well defined IMHO
08:03:25  <Muxy> people with some IT knowledge yes
08:03:41  <Muxy> but Mme Michu does not know what a LAN is
08:04:08  <planetmaker> then rather like "home network" vs "internet"
08:04:12  <dihedral> then he's at a bad place playing a multiplayer game
08:04:36  <dihedral> everybody who plays multiplayer games knows what a LAN is
08:04:39  <dihedral> or should know
08:04:53  <planetmaker> well. we can't go by what people *should* know
08:04:58  <dihedral> and it works in every game / community appart from openttd? cannot tell me that!
08:05:11  <planetmaker> I *should* have know that playing with logical volume manager destroys the volumes :D
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08:05:23  <Muxy> i have a game were you can choose : Local / Internet / favorites
08:06:00  <planetmaker> well, you have one favourite for openttd servers...
08:06:21  <planetmaker> yes, could be more...
08:06:53  <planetmaker> and windows needs really many updates it seems... 82 :D
08:07:47  <Muxy> favourites are displayed when opening multi-player window, but after it has been populated from internet, you can not clean the list (1.2.2 - dont know about trunk).
08:08:48  <planetmaker> nothing changed there
08:09:01  <planetmaker> you with "clean" like not display all servers?
08:09:22  <planetmaker> the purpose of that list is to show them all ;-)
08:09:50  <Muxy> the list "LAN" / Internet could have other entries who filters list content
08:10:17  <Muxy> you just click and you go to next entry and filter applies
08:10:30  <planetmaker> you can filter the whole list by the single rows
08:10:35  <planetmaker> s/filter/sort/
08:11:22  <planetmaker> a general filter there would imho be a text area which then filters the list on the entered word. Similar to like the NewGRF list works
08:11:36  <Muxy> and add a check box with "client release only"
08:12:15  <planetmaker> those are clearly distinguished. Not filtering them out IMHO is good as it shows people when to update
08:12:26  <planetmaker> and saves them the question of "where did server XXX go"
08:13:09  <Muxy> then filter is not by default
08:13:23  <Muxy> and can be saved after
08:14:56  <Muxy> and if you are version n-1 and find server version n, then can display a message : your client is old, you need to replace it
08:15:22  <Muxy> and send the message every year
08:15:45  <Muxy> hu, your client is getting very old and need to be replaced
08:16:27  <planetmaker> uhm... no, such message would be very annoying as there's also sometimes good reason to play an older version
08:16:56  <planetmaker> but it could be hinted there by a one-time message that you're behind current stable
08:17:06  <planetmaker> when opening the network window
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08:17:40  <Muxy> and if you activate the option "auto replace client when its old", its made automatically.
08:18:01  <Muxy> dont check your money, you dont need to pay ;)
08:18:20  <planetmaker> :D
08:18:56  <planetmaker> tbh, an integrated autoupdate might not be bad. But it's somewhat against the philosophy of "we don't phone home"
08:20:30  <Muxy> yes, but Mme Michu could be happy if something helps her to make her openttd client up-to-date.
08:21:34  <Muxy> uh, new stable servers found, would you like to update ? (yes, no remind me alter, no &  dont remind, no & never ask)
08:21:47  <Muxy> s/alter/later
08:23:33  <planetmaker> I know.
08:23:46  <planetmaker> tbh, it would also make me happy ;-) I'm lazy
08:24:07  <planetmaker> and it's a nice comfort setting
08:24:18  <Muxy> same for lazy, but i have many openttd client release
08:24:53  <Muxy> from 0.5.3 to 1.2.2 patched
08:25:27  <Muxy> hey i can make some cleaning to increase storage space
08:25:42  <planetmaker> storage space is cheap and openttd is small ;-)
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08:30:56  <planetmaker> even with my many versions, repos and what-not-ever, the ~/Documents/OpenTTD folder with newgrfs and screenshots takes 2.7GByte and the ottd folder with all binaries and dev stuff takes 27GByte (from which 13GByte are attributed to ottd/grfdev)
08:31:32  <planetmaker> as such 30GByte is not that much really :-)
08:32:38  <planetmaker> e.g. 1GByte is from the last two titlegame competitions :D
08:34:05  <dihedral> planetmaker, your openttd install uses more space than my openttd stuff + related projects
08:34:33  <planetmaker> dihedral: obviously half of it is grfdev + related stuff :-)
08:34:41  <planetmaker> and no, I rarely clean up :D
08:34:53  <dihedral> half = 15 gb... let my check my environment
08:34:53  <planetmaker> disk space is cheap. Lost date expensive
08:34:59  <planetmaker> *data
08:35:53  <dihedral> 103 MB content download - the rest in total is < 200 MB
08:36:18  <planetmaker> :-) gotta have many NewGRFs for some bug reports / debugging purposes :-)
08:36:42  <dihedral> that still gives you 29GB more than me :-P
08:36:58  <dihedral> that actually ist quite a lot of space with regards to openttd if you ask me :-P
08:37:06  <planetmaker> probably yes :-)
08:37:18  <planetmaker> but it's little compared to what I gather when I take out my camera ;-)
08:37:36  <planetmaker> one week there easily fills a GByte
08:38:00  <planetmaker> and these 30GByte were aquired over 5 years or so
08:38:04  <Terkhen> the server list window needs a big revamp, that's for sure
08:49:19  <dihedral> Terkhen, create a mock up ;-)
08:50:06  <Terkhen> nah, someone (TM) will do it
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08:51:19  <dihedral> if nobody is interested in it, it will not change :-P
08:59:25  <Terkhen> the GUI redesigns are a thorny matter, usually no one likes the result
09:00:13  <Terkhen> and given my ignorance in the matter, I'm not going to cross that bridge :P
09:00:23  <dihedral> some people even complain if you just use the word LAN for 20 years
09:00:35  <dihedral> just because some post 2000 kid does not know what it is
09:01:25  <dihedral> "let us change the world, rather than educate its inhabitants"
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10:37:45  <Elukka> who complains about LAN and what would they rather call it?
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10:41:43  <sbn> Hey guys, this wikipage has a missing picture:
10:45:53  <Fremen> guys can you restart a server with an savegame that was unpassworded but then password it?
10:48:07  <Elukka> i don't see why not
10:50:26  <Fremen> or I should try to run 2 at once, which will probably not work too well
10:57:33  <planetmaker> Fremen, as admin you can join every company via rcon move CLIENTID COMPANYID and then set passwords after loading a savegame
10:57:47  <planetmaker> passwords are not stored anywhere and thus cannot be restored automatically
10:58:07  <Fremen> hm strange because I thought it was loaded
10:58:20  <Fremen> but I'll be wrong :)
10:58:25  <planetmaker> I'm talking about company savegames
10:58:28  <Fremen> but I ment server password
10:58:36  <planetmaker> The server-wide password is set within the config file
10:58:54  <planetmaker> but not stored in savegames either. It "lives" independent of the savegame or what the server does
10:59:05  <Fremen> I have a server running that pauses when no one is playing, and a friend joined, we both went to sleep, now someone else joined this night and had the game run vor 20 years :d
10:59:13  <Fremen> ok
10:59:34  <Fremen> but if you restart the server with savegame and password in the cfg file then it will be passworden?
10:59:36  <Fremen> passworded
10:59:37  <planetmaker> yes, use the server-side password for that
10:59:53  <planetmaker> yes, it then should be password protected
11:00:25  <Fremen> okay
11:00:28  <planetmaker> server_password =
11:00:35  <planetmaker> you could also set it via rcon, I guess
11:00:48  <planetmaker> while being connected
11:00:57  <Fremen> and I tried running 2 servers on different ports, that started ok but one had probs very soon
11:01:03  <Fremen> ah ok
11:01:06  <Fremen> great
11:01:13  <Fremen> I'm still learning the commands :)
11:01:32  <planetmaker> running two or more servers normally poses no problem, if properly configured. For instance you want to start each with its own config file
11:01:51  <planetmaker> Either specified via command line parameter or by using a separate binary in a separate directory with its own config file next to it
11:02:20  <Fremen> you can use the same portsN
11:02:21  <Fremen> ?
11:02:28  * planetmaker ponders to change nick to Haikonen :D
11:02:39  <planetmaker> no, of course you can't use the same ports
11:02:47  <Fremen> thought so :p
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11:03:25  <Fremen> did use same server_admin_port guess that was the problem
11:03:59  <planetmaker> yes, they should be distinct as well... though I don't see them being a problem, if you don't use them
11:05:43  <sbn> it will be a problem
11:05:51  <sbn> they are going to bind to that port and one will fail
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11:07:04  <Fremen> well can be only reason why one borked at some point, trying it now
11:07:37  <planetmaker> servers can also fail to OOM, to missing NewGRFs, GS or AI,...
11:07:56  <planetmaker> and of course to being compiled with the ominous gcc 4.5
11:08:19  <sbn> gdb to the rescue
11:08:26  <planetmaker> won't help ;-)
11:09:14  <sbn> So it's a blackhole
11:09:25  <planetmaker> depends on what you want to gdb
11:10:01  <sbn> The problem he is having
11:10:03  <sbn> what else
11:10:19  <planetmaker> he should not need gdb for that :-)
11:10:32  <planetmaker> rather -d net=3 or so would help, if it's a network issue
11:10:47  <planetmaker> or -d grf=1 if it's missing newgrfs on load savegame
11:11:55  <sbn> You're the expext, Mr. Maker
11:11:58  <sbn> *exprt
11:12:01  <sbn> *expert
11:12:13  <Markk> :)
11:12:14  <planetmaker> it's the things I regularily stumble over ;-)
11:12:29  <planetmaker> thus I know how the common oversights look like... savegame works locally but fails on server ;-)
11:12:36  <planetmaker> Usually it's missing or incompatible newgrfs :D
11:12:42  <Fremen> hm
11:12:45  <Fremen> it's not actually
11:12:53  <Fremen> I'm using serverside savegames too
11:13:51  <planetmaker> what's a "serverside" savegame?
11:14:01  <Fremen> darned can't find the command to use a seperate cfg file
11:14:07  <Fremen> my saver saves the games :p
11:14:10  <Fremen> server
11:14:11  <Fremen> lol
11:14:16  <Fremen> damn still not awake
11:14:36  <planetmaker> ./openttd -?
11:14:39  <planetmaker> will tell you
11:14:43  <Fremen> ah ok :p
11:14:48  <planetmaker> probably like -c file.cfg
11:16:00  <Fremen> yep it is
11:18:27  <sbn> planetmaker: what is the difference between the block and noblock?
11:19:20  <sbn> just that the double entry signal is converted in a single entry signal?
11:19:36  <planetmaker> I don't know which block / noblock you mean where
11:19:40  <planetmaker> it's a large page
11:19:59  <sbn>
11:20:02  <sbn>
11:20:25  <planetmaker> ah
11:20:36  <planetmaker> well. Look at the train which tries to join the ML
11:20:59  <planetmaker> in the BLOCK case, also a subsequent train can't join the other ML. In the NOBLOCK case a subsequent train could join the other ML
11:21:24  <planetmaker> thus better through-put in the latter case
11:21:38  <Fremen> hah planetmaker you're right, it's not loading the correct NewGRFs
11:21:41  <Fremen> damned
11:22:02  <sbn> a, they just split the loader thingy
11:22:33  <sbn> I would never figured that out
11:22:41  <sbn> because I wouldn't design it like the block case :s
11:27:54  <Fremen> this sucks, shouldn't teh NewGRF be saved in teh savedgame?
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11:29:22  <planetmaker> if you play a game which allows add-ons: would you put the whole add-on into each savegame?
11:29:37  <planetmaker> Saving the very same thing over and over which each savegame?
11:29:49  <Fremen> erm no :p
11:30:06  <planetmaker> :-)
11:30:39  <Fremen> so loading them on a server is like impossible?
11:30:53  <planetmaker> Fremen, for servers it thus is *very* advantegeous to only use newgrfs which are found in the online content of openttd
11:31:07  <Fremen> which I do
11:31:17  <Fremen> they're all from there
11:31:23  <planetmaker> then you can utilize rcon (with a savegame without newgrfs for a start) and get all necessary newgrfs
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11:31:40  <Fremen> mkay
11:31:56  <lugo> exporting new-grf presets to a zip-archive would be quite handy  :)
11:32:12  <planetmaker>
11:32:22  <planetmaker> rcon content select all
11:32:32  <planetmaker> rcon content download
11:32:54  <planetmaker> give it then some time to fetch all content
11:32:59  <planetmaker> then try to load the savegame again
11:33:17  <planetmaker> mind, that a server needs the exact same version as the savegame wants. Not just a compatible one
11:33:27  <Fremen> okay
11:33:52  <Fremen> so this approach is screwed if one of the newGRF's got updated in the meantime
11:34:07  <Fremen> haha well this should be a one case anyway
11:34:09  <planetmaker> not really. You'll just have to update the server :-)
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11:47:18  <planetmaker> hm... our server script for updates does like
11:47:23  <planetmaker> rcon "content update"
11:47:28  <planetmaker> rcon "content select all"
11:47:34  <planetmaker> rcon "content upgrade"
11:47:39  <planetmaker> rcon "content download"
11:47:48  <planetmaker> not sure really we need the update and upgrade lines
11:48:30  <planetmaker> afterwards you need to restart the server though; it needs to be re-read the available newgrf
11:53:05  <Fremen> hm ok
11:53:16  <Fremen> won't it lose all the content again?
11:53:19  <Fremen> when restarting
11:53:38  <planetmaker> content is saved locally on the HDD
11:53:46  <planetmaker> it's the add-ons :-)
11:53:50  <Fremen> i see
11:54:01  <planetmaker> it just needs the proper content (files)
11:57:53  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: isn't there a commant to rescan the files?
11:58:06  <Eddi|zuHause> doing the same as the rescan button in the GUI
11:58:36  <planetmaker> even that has some issues :-)
11:59:23  <Fremen> still i don't get the restarting part, nothing is stored on the hd that wasnt there, what will change? :p
11:59:43  <Fremen> all the files are there
11:59:45  <planetmaker> Fremen, did you check your ~/.openttd/content_download/newgrf dir for changes?
11:59:55  <Fremen> yeh it's all the same
12:00:13  <planetmaker> or the local one ./content_download/newgrf ?
12:00:44  <Fremen> yeh that one
12:00:54  <Fremen> it's all there that's why I don't understand this system
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12:01:08  <Fremen> it's all there why doesn't he use it when starting up :p
12:01:16  <planetmaker> ?
12:01:27  <Fremen> if I restart with the savegame everything will be the same again
12:01:36  <Fremen> aka newGRF errors
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12:01:45  <planetmaker> what kind of error?
12:01:46  <Fremen> or I'm just too stupid
12:02:00  <Fremen> that he can't find the newGRF's
12:02:12  <Fremen> because nothing changed so why would that change
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12:02:52  <planetmaker> are you sure that savegame ever was run on that very server?
12:02:58  <Fremen> of course
12:03:40  <Fremen> what I do is start a single player game with all settings I need, then leave game, edit some variables et voila
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12:03:53  <Fremen> but when loading a savegame it seems to forget the newGRF's
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12:04:40  <planetmaker> ehm...  you *first* need to configure newgrfs. Then to configure the settings. Both from the main menu. Then generate the savegame and save it
12:05:14  <Fremen> I can't follow
12:05:23  <planetmaker> I could say the same ;-)
12:05:26  <Fremen> all the newGRF's are configured
12:05:31  <planetmaker> and then?
12:05:32  <Fremen> I mean they loaded
12:05:36  <Fremen> when starting the server
12:05:40  <planetmaker> what is "loaded"?
12:05:46  <Fremen> he uses theùm
12:05:48  <Fremen> them*
12:05:52  <planetmaker> how do you know?
12:06:00  <Fremen> because they work? :p
12:06:01  <planetmaker> seeing them doesn't mean using them
12:06:31  <Fremen> people have to download them to get on teh server, the button bottom right thing
12:06:45  <Fremen> they can't join without them
12:06:45  <planetmaker> I'm afraid in your description you've mixed too much single player and server for me to know what you did when how and where and which savegame in what state was loaded on which machine in which state how ;-)
12:07:06  <planetmaker> so... server works?
12:07:13  <Fremen> well teh savegame is made by teh server that used the newGRF's
12:07:14  <planetmaker> what's then "forgets newgrfs"?
12:07:21  <Fremen> that's why I don't understand how this system works
12:07:26  <planetmaker> didn't you just say you created the savegame locally?
12:07:34  <Fremen> no
12:07:45  <planetmaker> "<Fremen> what I do is start a single player game with all settings I need, then leave game, edit some variables et voila"
12:07:49  <Fremen> it was taken from an autosave on the server
12:07:57  <Fremen> yeh but that's not about the savegame
12:08:38  <Fremen> that's when I want to speed up some settings like map size and such, easier that way than lookign for all the variables in the cfg file
12:08:38  <planetmaker> is the server public?
12:08:41  <Fremen> ye
12:09:18  <Fremen> I want to start a new server (passworded this time) with a savegame of teh public server
12:09:37  <planetmaker> ehm... the newgrf config of a savegame is NOT saved in the config file. thus if you load a savegame with newgrfs. And then have the server generate a newer larger map, of course you don't have the same newgrfs there
12:09:39  <Fremen> so I just start one with an autosave of that game but now with a password
12:10:20  <Fremen> it's not geerating anythign new :p
12:10:24  <Fremen> it's loading a savegame
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12:10:58  <planetmaker> is the server your local computer or remote?
12:11:14  <Fremen> one of my local pc's
12:11:23  <planetmaker> windows? linux?
12:11:28  <Fremen> windows
12:11:48  <planetmaker> have the server run the game. save it. load it.
12:11:50  <planetmaker> Does it work?
12:12:00  <planetmaker> if step 1 fails, use a save which works
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12:12:27  <Fremen> none of the saves work I mean none loads the newGRF's :p
12:12:33  <Fremen> that's the problem
12:12:34  <planetmaker> *sigh*
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12:12:41  <planetmaker> then you got no newgrfs installed there
12:12:45  <Fremen> I have
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12:12:53  <Fremen> that's why I don't understand
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12:12:57  <Fremen> they are all there
12:13:05  <planetmaker> how do you know they're in the right directories?
12:13:16  <planetmaker> where's your server? where's the newgrfs?
12:13:21  <planetmaker> what's your openttd version?
12:13:27  <planetmaker> are they the same?
12:13:39  <Fremen> i'm sure they are all the same
12:13:45  <Fremen> as it's a savegame from 10am
12:13:49  <Fremen> and I tried it at 11am
12:14:18  <planetmaker> what does the time have to do with versions and paths?
12:14:20  <Fremen> I mean it's all in content_download/newgrf
12:14:27  <planetmaker> in which dir?
12:14:32  <planetmaker> full dir, full path, please
12:14:40  <planetmaker> also of the openttd.exe
12:14:52  <planetmaker> and of how you start the server
12:15:24  <planetmaker> I'm quite sure you messed up paths somehow.
12:15:31  <planetmaker> After all you tried to start a 2nd one there now...
12:15:36  <planetmaker> you must have changed some things
12:15:44  <Fremen> I didn't :p
12:15:51  <Fremen> I didn't change a thing
12:15:57  <Fremen> just a 2nd cfg fil
12:15:59  <Fremen> file*
12:16:02  <planetmaker> see
12:16:16  <Fremen> which is a copy of the oteh rone just with a password and ports changed
12:16:28  <planetmaker> that is a change. A significant one. Or can be
12:16:30  <Fremen> and i'm loading teh autosave on startup
12:17:22  <planetmaker> Sorry, can't help you
12:17:28  <Fremen> guess I should just shut down the other server :p
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12:17:40  <Fremen> or load the game there
12:17:48  <Fremen> shit will be solved :p
12:18:01  <planetmaker> I need more info, don't get them and it's all totally confusing, I'm afraid
12:18:29  <Fremen> well I don't blame you, I just can't follow why he would look in another path this time around
12:19:02  <planetmaker> start by actually describing your problem in full. Not just the symptom of "doesn't work". Quote full paths. full commands.
12:19:05  <planetmaker> They DO matter
12:19:11  <planetmaker> even when YOU don't see it
12:19:59  <Fremen> "C:\Program Files\OpenTTD\openttd.exe" -D -g save/joost1.sav -c openTTD2.cfg
12:20:02  <Fremen> that's how I start it
12:20:21  <planetmaker> and how before?
12:20:33  <planetmaker> leave out the "save"
12:20:57  <Fremen> ow I get way less errors this time
12:21:14  <Fremen> the rcon update commands etc seem to have helped...
12:21:24  <Fremen> "C:\Program Files\OpenTTD\openttd.exe" -D
12:21:25  <planetmaker> ...
12:21:40  <Fremen> still error though, 3 with incompatible versions
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12:22:07  <Fremen> from things I don't even know what they are
12:22:17  <Fremen> watertower something
12:23:01  <planetmaker> as long as your *savegame* doesn't use them, it doesn't matter. If your savegame *DOES* use them, you *should* know what they are
12:23:22  <Fremen> I don't recognize teh variables :s
12:23:42  <Fremen> long_vehicle_introduction_date
12:24:19  <Fremen> i can join the server and everythign looks fine
12:24:33  <Fremen> of course can be something that is screwed up underneath
12:26:49  <Fremen> ah well I'm too stupid for  this stuff, I'm hapy with this result :p
12:26:58  <Fremen> shouldn't be happening again anyway
12:28:23  <planetmaker> why not?
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12:28:34  <Fremen> akay !
12:28:36  <Fremen> okay
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12:29:30  <Fremen> it's indeed about the paths, it uses the games root instead of the folder where all the cfg files etc are
12:29:56  <Fremen> that content folder has now like every newgrf that is available online :p
12:30:06  <planetmaker> yes
12:30:34  <Fremen> damn Windows
12:30:35  <Fremen> :p
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12:30:52  <planetmaker> those problems are not windows-specific
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12:31:13  <Fremen> well that game makes a folder in mydocuments
12:31:23  <planetmaker> yes, it does
12:31:28  <Fremen> but when loading an autosave etc it does use the game folder
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12:32:35  <planetmaker> iff you place the cfg next to the exe. And call the exe from its own directory. Then, and only then, it should put all stuff local to that binary (but still read newgrfs also from the global MyDocuments folder)
12:33:11  <Fremen> I see !
12:33:26  <Fremen> both servers are now running
12:33:49  <Fremen> I can smell autosave overwritings incoming but i'll live with that :)
12:34:06  <planetmaker> yes, that'll happen, if you use the same binary...
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12:34:22  <planetmaker> that's why I usually recommend to have a separate binary for each server
12:34:38  <Fremen> goind to do that now
12:34:41  <Fremen> g*
12:34:41  <planetmaker> which then has a separate cfg next to it. And also a separate save/autosave folder
12:34:48  <Fremen> ye
12:35:02  <planetmaker> And the content_download folders... windows sucks. It doesn't allow proper links.
12:35:07  <Fremen> makes sense, it's just that i'm too lazy sometimes :p
12:35:42  <Fremen> I'm too lazy to try linux, i really should do it soon
12:36:55  <planetmaker> why should you?
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12:37:06  <Fremen> cause I'm tired of windows :p
12:37:36  <Fremen> can't have firefox open for one day, it generates memory leaks of 2GB etc
12:37:52  <Fremen> I'm pretty sure that's Windows related and not firefox :p
12:38:05  <Fremen> stuff like that annoys me
12:38:07  <planetmaker> like... I setup windows. started linux setup. Destroyed all partitions. Setup windows again, installed linux. installed another linux with working network driver. Looking now for a way to fix the display driver
12:38:18  <planetmaker> that was my day yesterday ;-)
12:38:52  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds truly crazy :p
12:38:53  <Fremen> bah :p
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12:39:37  <Fremen> I'm trying to do everything to get out of the IT jobs, but it follows me everywhere, tired of it for years now :s
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12:42:12  <dihedral> Fremen, what would you rather do?
12:42:31  <Fremen> something vreative
12:42:35  <Fremen> creative
12:42:41  <dihedral> ... IT :-D
12:42:57  <FLHerne> planetmaker: Have you had Windows' overzealous disk-decorrupting thing wipe your Linux partition yet? :P
12:43:00  <Fremen> nah for me that's not creative, it paralyzes my mind
12:43:20  <dihedral> ah - then you are not in the correct area of IT :-P
12:44:21  <planetmaker> FLHerne, not really. But it might be related that I only very rarely run windows. Like privately not during the last 5 years or so
12:44:27  <planetmaker> except in a VM
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12:47:08  <Fremen> I creatd board and cardgames as a hobby, I want to do something similar as my job, but ofc that's extremely hard
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12:55:53  <Asteconn> Fremen: Self publish =3
12:56:11  <Asteconn> I'm doing that with a pen and paper RPG I'm writing for the hell of it presently
12:56:57  <Fremen> well that's the intention
12:57:16  <Fremen> it's doable with a cardgame, less so with a boardgame to start with :)
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13:24:36  <NGC3982> Afternoon.
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13:43:37  <Asteconn> Fremen: Not too difficult if you publish print-it-yourself PDFs
13:43:51  <Asteconn> You should also take a look at =3
13:44:35  <Fremen> well I'm planning to used artscow and thegamecrafter, I can even make money out of it
13:44:42  <Fremen> but that' snot the important part ofc
13:44:58  <Fremen> I have my prototype printed by printerstudio, which is awesome
13:45:47  <Asteconn> Awesome
13:46:08  <Asteconn> My game is still in alpha, and is about 50% complete. Although it /is/ about 90% playable
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13:46:49  <Fremen> game is in alpha as well, but i needed some prototypes with basic art
13:46:58  <Fremen> people seem to like that art though which is already great :p
13:47:43  <Fremen> when I got some 'basic' playtesting and tweaking done I'll contact foreign people to test it out
13:48:22  <Fremen> wot you even have lore ;)
13:53:17  <Terkhen> oooh, weekend
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13:56:49  <Belugas> hello
13:57:00  <KasperVld> Hi
13:57:04  <Belugas> hihi
13:57:30  <KasperVld> Why hello there :3
13:58:37  <KasperVld> well, let's get the party started shall we?
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14:02:11  <Terkhen> hi Belugas and KasperVld
14:02:34  <KasperVld> hello
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14:06:01  <Belugas> Terkhen :D
14:06:04  <Belugas> it's FRIDAY!
14:06:20  <Fremen> "Sure, you can remove everything."
14:06:31  <Fremen> "Ok." me clicks remove all
14:06:47  <Fremen> "But leave the root files for now."
14:06:54  <Fremen> aight :s
14:07:09  <Terkhen> Belugas: I agree, FRIDAY!!
14:07:46  <KasperVld> I disagree, but that's probably because Im still effed over from all those night shifts
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14:33:25  <Asteconn> Fremen: Yep =] I even have lore
14:33:47  <Asteconn> It's in the process of being written - I concentrated firstly on the system itself
14:33:54  <Asteconn> Still needs some work mind you o.o
14:35:41  <Fremen> my games tend to be overcomplicated so I'm now working on something that plays smooth and not too long
14:36:25  <Fremen> I tend to overcomplicate stuff and disturd the flow
14:36:29  <Fremen> disturb
14:36:47  <Fremen> but it's nothing like RPG's, that's not my thing
14:38:26  <Fremen> I'm working on a website now, it's finally taking soms shape :p
14:38:27  <Fremen> some*
14:49:45  <Asteconn> protip on a website: use a CMS
14:49:55  <Asteconn> Personally I'd recommend drupal
14:50:04  <Asteconn> You can get a free one at drupal gardens actually
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15:07:00  <Alberth> moin
15:08:26  <Terkhen> hi Alberth
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16:02:32  <Alberth> quak
16:02:58  <frosch123> moin :)
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16:05:30  <Alberth> lol "yeah, the cargo transport window is mostly useless" :)
16:08:46  <frosch123> excel integration?
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16:43:18  <planetmaker> so... it takes 2 half days to get debian running on a somewhat new system...
16:43:30  <planetmaker> and basically using loads of backports
16:44:04  <frosch123> your first installation?
16:44:09  <planetmaker> of debian: yes
16:44:31  <planetmaker> felt (and feel) like a total noob.
16:44:37  <frosch123> yeah, weird hardware can delay installations :)
16:44:47  <planetmaker> centos and suse seem to work easier in that respect
16:45:08  <planetmaker> yes... network and graphics were what took quite a bit time.
16:45:25  <frosch123> no idea about centos; suse has not impressed me
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16:46:27  <planetmaker> well; they work at least more with a somewhat more friendly GUI. while I had to wade mostly through apt-get... which is ok, but...
16:46:48  <planetmaker> ... nothing you can ask a user which just wants it working
16:47:04  <frosch123> why does "gnu gpl steam greenlight" result in so useless search results?
16:48:57  <planetmaker> the usefulness of results is proportional to the forum and e-mail "steam" about it ;-)
16:49:06  <planetmaker> *inversely proportional
16:49:26  <frosch123> well, maybe i should delete all my cookies
16:49:38  <frosch123> sometimes i think my search results are totally screwed because google knows me too well :)
16:49:53  <frosch123> e.g. tt-forums showed up with that search querry
16:50:28  <planetmaker> we also have at least two people suggesting that via e-mail
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16:54:03  <frosch123> well, wrt. the forum discussion... _if_ ottd is allowed on steam, it should be uploaded by someone of us
16:54:21  <frosch123> if a random user upload it, it is unlikely to receive proper updates
16:55:07  <frosch123> i am having a hard time to find proper legel stuff for greenlight, but at least it seems to have a bananas-like term of "only developers/owners may add stuff"
17:00:18  <frosch123> though argueably in about every discussion thread about greenlight, openttd is mentioned on the first two pages :p
17:00:48  <Terkhen> I agree
17:01:02  <Terkhen> but yes, I didn't find the terms of use either
17:01:16  <frosch123> rumors say, ottd was already denied by them due not being uploaded by the developers
17:01:35  <frosch123> but i don't see anyone of us uploading it, without knowing whether it is gpl compatible :)
17:01:53  <Terkhen> I saw some tweets mentioning that it was suggested, but I wasn't able to find it at greenlight, i also assumed that it was deleted
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17:02:43  <frosch123> i found some news that steam will shortly get a linux client, because they feel treated by win 8 :p
17:03:41  <Terkhen> yes, I have been following all related news because I like many valve games... being free of wine for them would be great
17:04:02  <Terkhen> it seems that they have been actively helping graphics card driver developers too
17:04:07  <frosch123> no idea, i only played hl and cs
17:04:16  <frosch123> though i am not sure whether the latter counts as valve
17:04:32  <frosch123> i am not aware of any other valve game i might have played
17:04:49  <Terkhen> I'm mostly with tf2 and portal 2
17:05:50  <Terkhen> the upload form has a bananas-esque checkbox asking if you have rights to sell the game you are proposing
17:06:30  <frosch123> hmm, good point, i should have checked the upload stuff for tos
17:06:36  <frosch123> but i assume you already did :)
17:06:42  <Terkhen> I can find user terms of use and a legal note about copyright infringement, but nothing about the tos of the upload itself
17:06:52  <frosch123> yip
17:10:24  <Terkhen> I can't find anything, let me check the forums
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17:15:55  <Terkhen> this reminds me that maybe we should take ownership of this
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17:21:02  <glx> frosch123: valve started to port source to linux (ubuntu only for now)
17:21:43  <glx> and they were surprised it was faster than under windows
17:22:15  <glx>
17:22:39  <Nat_aS> Windows 8 will be the death of microsoft
17:22:46  <Nat_aS> unix will be the new gaming platform
17:22:53  <Nat_aS> valve will solve all the unix gaming issues
17:23:01  <Nat_aS> by yelling at hardware manufacturers
17:23:16  <Terkhen> as proven in the past, it would take more than a crappy windows version for that
17:23:20  <frosch123> well, borland died trying to support linux :p
17:23:26  <Terkhen> even if this one is specially crappy
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17:23:41  <Nat_aS> I'm stickin with seven
17:23:44  <frosch123> isn't every second windows version crap?
17:23:51  <glx> indeed :)
17:23:54  <Nat_aS> but I think I'm gonna buy a new computer for ubuntu 12
17:23:55  <frosch123> like as if they are alternating two dev teams :p
17:24:05  <Nat_aS> frosch123, I'll believe that
17:24:26  <frosch123> same applies for linux, kde 3 and gnome 2 are great, kde 4 and gnome 3 are crap
17:24:30  <Terkhen> 95, millenium, vista, 8... sounds like you are right
17:24:38  <frosch123> i hope it gets solved with kde 5 and gnome 4 :)
17:24:50  <Nat_aS> 98, 2000, XP, 7
17:25:05  <Nat_aS> lots of things have shitty odd numbers
17:25:12  <Terkhen> right now I'm using 7; I'm not switching back to linux until I see some proper support for optimus, which my new laptop uses
17:25:15  <frosch123> 2000 is a nt series, i guess you have to exclude that one
17:25:17  <Nat_aS> it happens a lot in game series
17:25:21  <Terkhen> yes, I was excluding 2000
17:25:30  <Nat_aS> it's not?
17:26:40  <glx> 2000 is an xp for servers
17:26:44  <glx> almost
17:27:02  <__ln__> 2003 is an xp for servers
17:27:24  <__ln__> isn't 2000 more like nt for desktops
17:28:00  <glx> it's definitely a non "casual" user version
17:28:40  <Nat_aS> as for unix killing bordland
17:28:48  <__ln__> not for home desktops maybe, but business desktops
17:28:52  <Nat_aS> I think if any company can do it, it will be valve
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17:30:28  <Yexo> can I interest anyone in playing a H2H / NoCarGoal game tonight?
17:30:58  <Terkhen> Nat_aS: I don't think that a game company such as valve is interested in supporting the complete linux ecosystem, with all their distributions and so on
17:31:18  <glx> Terkhen: the first step is ubuntu
17:31:22  <Nat_aS> well that's kind of impossible
17:31:25  <Terkhen> best case scenario, they support only ubuntu
17:31:43  <Terkhen> worst case scenario, they try to create their own distro :P
17:31:45  <Nat_aS> the idea is the complete ecosystem, makes there own damn suport
17:31:46  <Terkhen> Yexo: count me in :D
17:31:50  <Nat_aS> Ppppppht
17:32:09  <Nat_aS> if they only officaly support Ubuntu
17:32:16  <Terkhen> Nat_aS: I know how it works, but that does not means the company wants to work that way
17:32:22  <Terkhen> maybe I'm a pessimistic :P
17:32:31  <Nat_aS> but document everything and leave it open, then everyone else can do the work themselves
17:32:36  <Nat_aS> it will only work well on ubuntu
17:32:43  <Nat_aS> but it could be hacked into other things
17:32:46  <frosch123> Terkhen: they just have to statically link everything :p
17:32:50  <Nat_aS> I mean they only have to close the parts that cost money
17:33:03  <frosch123> ottd generic build also runs everywhere, doesn't it?
17:33:23  <glx> <-- 4th paragraph
17:33:45  <Terkhen> glx: nice :D
17:33:50  <glx> frosch123: yes with all libs statically linked
17:34:48  <Terkhen> I'll probably run xubuntu for a while anyways, until I get bored of it and look for something more bleeding edge again
17:35:01  <Terkhen> then I'll get bored of having to fix stuff weekly and go back to ubuntu
17:35:07  <Nat_aS> lol
17:35:14  <Terkhen> following my usual pattern
17:35:20  <Terkhen> :P
17:35:26  <Nat_aS> Why does nothing work in the future!
17:36:29  <Nat_aS> I run windows on new computers and then install ubuntu on them when they get old
17:36:50  <Nat_aS> but I want a new computer to run ubuntu on, I'm just afraid of hardware issues if I try to install it on a new computer
17:36:56  <Nat_aS> what's a good computer for unix?
17:36:59  <Nat_aS> laptop wise
17:37:16  <__ln__> a macbook
17:37:30  <Nat_aS> but then I'd be giving money to apple
17:37:31  <Terkhen> just check the hardware specs before buying it... I bought mine from a small seller in spain and I know that linux already supports everything on it except optimus
17:37:41  <Nat_aS> although I am intrested in ultrabooks
17:37:43  <Terkhen> IIRC retina looks horrible on linux
17:37:56  <Nat_aS> the mac air would be the ideal if it were less expensive and not made by apple
17:38:54  <Nat_aS> made of aluminum instead of plastic and no moving parts
17:40:06  <Terkhen> Nat_aS: get one of those tablets-with-keyboards that are appearing a lot lately :P
17:40:21  <Nat_aS> I want a computer not a tablet though
17:40:28  <Nat_aS> I hate moble OSes on anything that's not a phone
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17:41:18  <Wolf01> evening
17:41:21  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
17:41:35  <Terkhen> Nat_aS: that's why I dislike unity, and will probably hate windows 8
17:41:50  <Nat_aS> can ubuntu 12 go back to Gnome?
17:41:52  <Nat_aS> like 10 can?
17:42:11  <Nat_aS> I'll try Unity, it's not as LOOK AT ME I'M A MOBILE OS as 8 is
17:42:15  <__ln__> Nat_aS: i don't think you're going to find a laptop more suitable for unix from any other manufacturer.
17:42:18  <Nat_aS> and it's still a PC Os
17:42:25  <Nat_aS> even if it's optomized for touchscreens
17:42:33  <Nat_aS> what about Samsung?
17:42:38  <Nat_aS> they are pretty much the same thing
17:42:40  <Nat_aS> :v
17:42:42  <Nat_aS> legaly speaking
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17:43:18  <Terkhen> Nat_aS:
17:43:34  <Nat_aS> ahh
17:43:42  <Terkhen> I'll stick with XFCE
17:43:44  <Nat_aS> nice to see it when a company bends to consumer preasure
17:44:13  <Terkhen> I dislike Gnome 3, I'm never able to get used to KDE and I hate unity
17:44:25  <Kjetil> Gnome 3 is horrible
17:44:33  <Nat_aS> why?
17:45:21  <frosch123> [19:40] <Nat_aS> I hate moble OSes on anything that's not a phone <- that's why
17:45:33  <planetmaker> hm... 32 seconds real build time for OpenTTD. I like that :D
17:45:35  <Kjetil> It doesn't fit my workflow where I have multiple open programs which I use at the same time
17:45:36  <frosch123> gnome 3 is touchscreen-ish
17:45:52  <Terkhen> whenever I use gnome 3, I'm always desiring that I had a proper desktop to place icons and stuff
17:45:56  <frosch123> planetmaker: -j what?
17:45:59  <planetmaker> 9
17:46:03  <frosch123> :p
17:46:09  <Alberth> just -j  :)
17:46:10  <Terkhen> I'm also forced to use the mouse for everything
17:46:16  <Terkhen> except for writing in the search box
17:46:17  <Terkhen> urgh
17:46:29  <planetmaker> :-)
17:46:30  <Terkhen> I have not tested how fast I can compile openttd on my new laptop
17:46:32  <Terkhen> let's see
17:46:32  <frosch123> planetmaker: i only use -j 5, and the disk is the bottleneck :s
17:47:10  <Alberth> buy more RAM :)
17:47:18  <frosch123> i have enough ram
17:47:18  <Nat_aS> technacly windows 7 is touchscreenish
17:47:28  <Nat_aS> having big buttons does not make it a mobile os
17:47:31  <frosch123> but i think my disk scheduler is bad :)
17:48:25  <Alberth> if you have enough ram, you'd run everything from the disk cache, don't you?
17:49:01  <frosch123> Nat_aS: the question is whether all context menus have been removed, and all menus are reduced to say 5 items with huge font, basically removing all useful (though less mainstream) stuff
17:49:27  <planetmaker> frosch123: I guess the disk is here the bottleneck,too
17:49:39  <Terkhen> 1m23s... which is roughly the same than in my old laptop
17:49:41  <frosch123> Alberth: it has to write it to disk or so
17:49:59  <Alberth> frosch123: bummer :(
17:50:03  <frosch123> anyway, i have 2gb per core, so if that is not enough, it's the os fault :p
17:50:21  <Terkhen> I guess that using windows, the ancient version of bash/make included in mingw and not using the SSD are to blame
17:50:29  <frosch123> but i never felt like trying different io schedulers
17:50:57  <Alberth> Terkhen: I'd blame "using windows" :p
17:51:19  <Terkhen> that's the biggest problem of the list, yes :P
17:51:53  <frosch123> 40s for debug=3 build here
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17:53:23  <frosch123> 55s for optimised build
17:53:49  <Alberth> mine take much longer, my machine is old :)
17:54:13  <frosch123> define "old" :)
17:54:44  <frosch123> mine is about 2 years i believe
17:54:49  <Kjetil> Is it a VAX ?
17:54:51  <frosch123> though i can never remember :p
17:56:24  <frosch123> and, yeah -j 9 results in the same time as -j 5 :p
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17:57:26  <Alberth> 6 years
17:58:24  <Alberth> runing more than 1+<number of cores> jobs is not very useful in general :)
17:58:48  <frosch123> the difficulty is how to count virtual cores :p
17:58:54  <frosch123> though luckily i have none :)
17:59:23  <Alberth> that simplifies the problem quite a lot :)
18:00:41  <frosch123> planetmaker: you should check whether lower -j numbers make any difference :)
18:00:51  <frosch123> also, did you do debug or release build?
18:01:05  <Nat_aS> of all the
18:01:12  <Nat_aS> "Ultrabooks" listed on Newegg
18:01:18  <Nat_aS> only 7 of them actualy have SSDs
18:02:06  <Alberth> tell the manufacturers that :)
18:02:27  <Nat_aS> what's the point of a buzword if it dosn't specify anything
18:02:49  <Terkhen> Nat_aS: I saw many "high performance gaming laptops" with a 5,400 rpm HDD
18:02:55  <Terkhen> not 7200, let alone SSD
18:03:00  <Yexo> I thought "ultrabook" was just about the size of the thing
18:03:09  <Yexo> what has ssd/hdd to do with it?
18:03:24  <glx> <@Terkhen> I guess that using windows, the ancient version of bash/make included in mingw and not using the SSD are to blame <-- disk accesses on windows are slow
18:03:27  <Nat_aS> well high preformance gaming just means it has a good graphics card
18:03:34  <Terkhen> moar powah
18:04:09  <Nat_aS> Ultrabook means a laptop that does not compromise on portability and power. Specificaly using some technologies that Intel thinks are cool
18:04:19  <Nat_aS> such as SSDs and cloud storage
18:05:01  <Nat_aS>
18:05:14  <Nat_aS> it's defined by intel
18:07:14  <Nat_aS> if you remove the search term ultrabook, you actualy get more laptops that fit the ultrabook description better
18:07:22  <Nat_aS> by just searching for laptops with only SSDs
18:11:00  <frosch123> glx: depends completely on the filesystem
18:12:35  <Terkhen> the choices for that on windows are not very stellar :)
18:13:15  <Kjetil> FAT64 is the fa(s)test
18:14:05  <frosch123> i ran the popular "grf2html"-disk-benchmark test (creation of lots of small files), and it turned out that fat16 << ext3 << ntfs
18:14:19  <frosch123> 5 years ago :)
18:14:31  <frosch123> comparing xp and gentoo
18:14:50  <Yexo> so which was fastest? fat16 or ntfs?
18:14:56  <frosch123> ntfs
18:15:35  <frosch123> 153.4s on fat16 (16k clusters), 52.7s on ext3, 44.5s on ntfs
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18:16:02  <frosch123> though the linux text used wine
18:16:11  <frosch123> so, that might have impacted it badly
18:16:16  <frosch123> *test
18:16:36  <frosch123> and fat16 used 3 times more disk space, due to the bad cluster size
18:16:54  <Chris_Booth> why not fat32?
18:17:09  <frosch123> i guess i had no fat32 disk to test :p
18:17:18  <Chris_Booth> lol
18:17:29  <frosch123> don't ask why i had a fat16 disk :p
18:17:47  <Chris_Booth> I would be interested in how fast HSF+ is compared to NTFS
18:17:52  <frosch123> i also had no ext4 or reiserfs disk :)
18:18:51  <frosch123> (above test is about creating 18929 small files, with 39 MB total size)
18:19:33  <frosch123> so, it filled 1/3 of the fat16 disk or so :p
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18:21:48  <frosch123> oh, i also have numbers for the native linux port
18:21:59  <frosch123> apparently ext3 was way faster than ntfs then :)
18:22:34  <frosch123>
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18:24:52  <frosch123> damn, what pain must have been to make delphi and freepascal produce png :p
18:25:01  <frosch123> why did noone port it to c++ ?
18:25:28  <Wolf01> bbl
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18:28:36  <frosch123> [19:30] <Yexo> can I interest anyone in playing a H2H / NoCarGoal game tonight? <- was there any result wrt. that?
18:28:57  <Yexo> Terkhen was interested, I asked pm to set up a game in the usual channel but no reaction to that yet
18:29:06  <Yexo> I'm preparing a game right now
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18:33:42  <Terkhen> I'll be ready for playing in half an hour or so :)
18:33:54  <Rubidium> sounds interesting
18:34:02  <Kjetil> NoCarGoal ?
18:34:02  <Yexo> #openttdcoop.nightly channel
18:34:37  <Yexo> Kjetil: it's a goal script where you have to transport x amount of cargo in x years
18:34:43  <Rubidium> h2h + nocargoal, right?
18:35:05  <Yexo> yep
18:35:13  <Kjetil> And if you don't you loose ?
18:35:20  <Yexo> Kjetil: yes
18:35:24  <Kjetil> Sounds fun
18:35:32  <Yexo> also in this case we're mixing it with a patch called "head-to-head"
18:35:45  <Yexo> it gives each company a separate copy of the exact same map
18:35:57  <Yexo> <- see that
18:36:13  <Yexo> you can see what every company is doing but only build in your own area
18:36:42  <Kjetil> heh. A lot has changed since I played around with ottd
18:37:00  <Yexo> this is not yet in any stable/nightly release ;)
18:37:12  <Yexo> as a patch it has existed for a very long time
18:37:23  <Kjetil> Are new goals continously added ?
18:37:38  <Yexo> anyone can add goals via a scripting API
18:38:17  * Kjetil was thinking more along the lines of new goals being generated when the old ones expire
18:38:26  <Yexo> ah, no, not yet
18:38:39  <Rubidium> though you could relatively easily code that
18:38:42  <Yexo> but feel free to suggest that:
18:40:42  <Kjetil> Alltough I guess there are some issues with longrunning games in a H2H-scenario. (Where to place new industries etc)
18:41:53  <Rubidium> Yexo: 64x2048x4 crashes h2h
18:42:02  <Yexo> Rubidium: known issue
18:42:13  <Yexo> 2048x64x4 should work
18:42:24  <Yexo> map size you specify is map size for each player
18:42:31  <Yexo> but the total still has to fit within 2048x2048
18:42:59  <Yexo> abandoning map generation also causes crashes
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18:44:13  <Rubidium> though 64x2048x4 doesn't reach MapSize() yet, which is what it asserts on
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18:46:02  <Wolf01> thunderstorm ;)
18:47:06  <Alberth> welcome
18:47:15  <Yexo> Rubidium: for me it errors out with "Invalid map size" (map.cpp:59)
18:48:27  <Rubidium> hmm, the second time it did that
18:48:37  <Rubidium> Error: Assertion failed at line 76 of /home/rubidium/openttd/special/head-to-head.hg/src/tile_map.h: tile < MapSize()
18:48:41  <Rubidium> that's the first time
18:50:01  <Rubidium> start -> new map 256x256x1 -> intro -> new map 256x256x4 -> intro -> new map 2048x64x4
18:50:06  <Rubidium> although...
18:51:00  <Rubidium> looks like a second or third x4 map crashes with the assert
18:51:21  <Rubidium> as in: new map -> abandon cycle
18:51:59  <Rubidium> oh, for greenlight you first need to buy a steam game
18:52:10  <Yexo> are you abandoning map generation or going back after it has completed?
18:52:17  <Rubidium> after it is completed
18:54:13  <frosch123> Rubidium: you need to buy a game to be able to upload one?
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18:54:46  <Rubidium> frosch123:
18:54:54  <Rubidium> last paragraph, second sentence
18:55:35  <Squire> Seems reasonable
18:56:31  <Squire> Personally i'd rather see more professional game choices up there. I've seen Zoo Tycoon 2 and Faces of War, but Faces of War is more or less identical to it's sequel Men of War anyway
18:57:02  <Squire> There's a lot of frankly crap "indie" games on their list so far, most of which I wouldn't pay a penny for
18:57:31  <Rubidium> Yexo:
18:58:01  <Yexo> ah :(
18:58:04  <Yexo> I've seen that one before
18:58:28  <Rubidium> @base 10 16 65047
18:58:28  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: FE17
18:59:41  <Rubidium> Squire: I was just implying that I wouldn't be uploading it there
19:00:23  <Rubidium> though *if* they ask whether you may legally sell the content instead of whether you are the owner of it, then basically everyone may upload it
19:00:56  <Rubidium> if not, then who is the owner?!?
19:05:31  <argoneus> is it hard to implement your own A* algorithm in openttd?
19:05:38  <argoneus> a simple one that works
19:05:59  <Rubidium> in what context?
19:06:03  <Rubidium> in an AI/GS?
19:06:09  <Rubidium> or in the C++ code?
19:06:45  <Yexo> I've seen that one before
19:06:46  <Rubidium> in the latter it's about as hard as it is for any implementation in C++, and for the former about as hard as it is for a scripting language
19:07:05  <Yexo> but in both cases: a high quality implementation already exists that you can reuse
19:07:14  <argoneus> AI/GS
19:07:16  <Yexo> I don't see any reason to implement A* in either case
19:07:17  <Rubidium> though implementing it sounds pointless since there are already implementations
19:07:24  <argoneus> yeah there are
19:07:31  <argoneus> but as I want to study programming
19:07:39  <argoneus> I feel like implementing it myself could give me a better idea of it
19:07:58  <argoneus> I mean
19:08:02  <argoneus> if I was making a commercial application
19:08:10  <argoneus> I'd re-use as much as possible because I need it stable
19:08:16  <argoneus> but doing this could be a nice personal experience, no?
19:08:38  <Yexo> implementing A* is not very complicated, but then I don't know how much experience with programming you have
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19:08:57  <Yexo> if it's your first program I'd advise against starting with an AI/GS in OpenTTD, since they're hard to debug
19:10:19  <argoneus> oh
19:10:30  <argoneus> I wanted to make it in openttd because I thought it'd be easy to debug
19:10:34  <argoneus> I mean, the railway either is there or isn't
19:10:52  <argoneus> if I wanted to do it in C++, I'd need to implement a graphical grid myself
19:10:56  <argoneus> so I thought this'd be simpler
19:11:24  <planetmaker> of course it's there or not there. But... that's the hard way of debugging :-)
19:11:27  <Yexo> that's true, but on the other hand there is no good way to set breakpoints or get the values of variables while your script is running
19:11:28  <Alberth> make a text grid instead
19:11:52  <planetmaker> lol. write with tracks on the map :D
19:11:59  <Kjetil> haha
19:12:48  <Wolf01> gah, thunderstorm again :(
19:13:04  <Alberth> Wolf01: it likes you, apparently
19:13:50  <Wolf01> I would like it if I could be able to use it for my UPS :P
19:13:55  <Yexo> Kjetil: but don't let any of us stop you if you want to try it :)
19:14:02  <Yexo> if it's for learning and you have fun, why not?
19:16:03  <argoneus> Yexo: did you mean him or me?
19:16:17  <Alberth> probably you :)
19:16:17  <Yexo> argoneus: you :)
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19:58:35  <Yexo> andythenorth: care for a nocargoal game?
19:58:47  <Yexo> we're in the planning stage right now, no building done yet
19:59:10  <andythenorth> yes, although I'm very tired :)
19:59:15  <andythenorth> might be more watch than play :P
19:59:26  <Yexo> doens't matter :)
19:59:31  <Yexo> nightly r24502, the usual channel
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20:29:19  <Squire> pst. andythenorth likes to watch...
20:31:17  <Terkhen> nah, when he sees the action he can't help but join :P
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20:35:56  <Zuu> Yexo et al: Agreed that debugging capabilities in OpenTTD doesn't come up to usual debuggers. But with FS#5206 it will be fairly easy to add GSController::Break() that will suspend the AI/GS from source.
20:37:15  <Zuu> Its already possible for AIs to pause the game when AIController::Break() is called, just that noone have pushed a such patch for trunk.
20:38:32  <Zuu> I know there was one patch to add more advanced debugging capabilities, but it was more or less just a "here it is, take it or leave it" patch on the forum.
20:41:12  <Zuu> Or an AI/GS can use SuperLib.Helper.BreakPoint. It will put a sign on a tile and not return until that sign have been removed (by you)
20:42:01  <frosch123> Zuu: we are playing, your fault :)
20:42:13  <Zuu> Oh, that's why its so quiet :-)
20:42:57  <Zuu> Oh, you use a new version with my fix. :-)
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22:16:34  <Terkhen> good night
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22:19:41  <andythenorth> good night
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22:19:56  <Yexo> good night
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22:45:26  <frosch123> night
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23:25:54  <Wolf01> 'night
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