Log for #openttd on 2nd September 2012:
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02:48:12  <heihei> hi
02:48:21  <heihei> anyone know a good city server?
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02:51:21  <heihei> Luukland is no more?
02:56:48  <Supercheese> Hmm, the forums are giving me a 500 - Internal Server Error
03:00:13  <heihei> me2
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05:24:37  <Supercheese> Forums still down... :S
05:24:53  <Rubidium> orudge: ^
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06:20:40  <andythenorth> no forums :P
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06:35:00  <planetmaker> moin
06:35:22  <planetmaker> yeah... just noticed. What do I now read during breakfast :P
06:35:28  <Supercheese> I know, so strange
06:35:49  <Supercheese> Well, I'm actually playing OTTD, so it's all good
06:35:58  <planetmaker> and no new questionablecontent today either...
06:36:33  <Supercheese> Didn't think it updated on Sundays?
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06:36:51  <planetmaker> Monday through Friday they do
06:36:58  <kamnet> Good morning!
06:37:55  <Supercheese> Oh gads, the grf specs wiki is down too
06:37:55  <planetmaker> hi
06:38:05  <planetmaker> same DB
06:38:06  <Supercheese> how will I know what properties/callbacks/whatnot I need to code?
06:38:11  <Supercheese> @_@
06:38:32  <planetmaker> referencing other grfs :D
06:38:40  <Supercheese> Or asking
06:39:06  <planetmaker> we should trod on oruge's feet again to supply weekly or monthly dumps for offline usage :-)
06:39:26  <Supercheese> If I wanted to make an addon grf to an existing set to enable autorefit, would all I have to do be Engine_Override the ID and set the special autorefit flag? Presuming the refit cost is already 0, that is
06:39:43  <Supercheese> or do I have to get a callback returning autorefit allowed?
06:39:46  <kamnet> OK, so who let little Bobby DROP TABLES create an account? :D
06:39:52  <planetmaker> Supercheese: in principle yes
06:40:28  <planetmaker> Supercheese: but you can't set the autorefit flag separately from the other misc flags. Thus you'll have to re-create that misc_flags property completely, including the other bits set by the original Newgrf
06:40:40  <Supercheese> ah, yes, that makes sense
06:41:24  <planetmaker> that can be a practical problem, but need not be
06:41:56  <Supercheese> Autorefit is so amazing, playing with sets that lack it feels odd
06:43:52  <Supercheese> Guess I should wget the grf specs every so often
06:43:53  <planetmaker> agreed. Once you fell in love with that, and use a play style which can nicely make use of it, then you don't want to miss it again
06:43:58  <Supercheese> oh wait, I think I have to RSS cache somewhere
06:44:02  <Supercheese> the* Rss
06:44:28  <Supercheese> Not exactly comprehensive, but it tracks the recent changes
06:44:51  <Supercheese> Bleh, the cache is 100% diffs
06:44:54  <Supercheese> hard to read
06:46:01  <Supercheese> better than nothing though
06:56:57  <Terkhen> good morning
06:59:29  <kamnet> Good morning!
07:00:27  <V453000> elo
07:05:00  <kamnet> Good morning!
07:11:29  <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
07:11:35  <planetmaker> and V
07:11:54  <V453000> hi hi hi hi hi :)
07:12:29  <Supercheese> Rupta sunt fora... :(
07:14:42  <V453000> go play the game instead :p
07:14:50  <Supercheese> Oh I am
07:14:56  <Supercheese> I still lament
07:15:00  <kamnet> I should probably do that myself.
07:15:11  <V453000> :D ok multitasking
07:15:31  <Supercheese> Once you've got good freight lines in FIRS and start producing Eng/Farm supplies, your industries start overproducing like mad
07:15:36  <kamnet> or replace the power supply in my PC. It's been running fanless for about  a month now
07:15:48  <Supercheese> The positive reinforcement leads to way too much cargo to handle
07:15:54  <V453000> yeah that they totally do
07:16:12  <V453000> if you manage to do that in like 1920, you will have to expand lotssss very soon in the game
07:16:20  <Supercheese> Makes for a major challenge: how the crap do I move all this X?
07:16:36  <Supercheese> The year is 1926 and my steel mill is churning out epic amounts of metal
07:16:44  <V453000> unfortunately that way you reach the max production very soon, around 1970s I think
07:17:23  <Supercheese> The metal goes to the machine shop, which produces way too many supplies...
07:17:27  <Supercheese> and so on
07:18:00  <kamnet> Production last month: 15,792 crates of farm supplies (56% transported)
07:18:04  <V453000> yes :) oil does that even more with higher starting production
07:18:31  <kamnet> I'm pretty sure I'll never need to use another machine shop in this game
07:18:37  <V453000> :D
07:18:39  <Supercheese> I should just make canal routes everywhere, ships have roughly infinite capacity
07:18:50  <V453000> lol
07:18:54  <Supercheese> just keep building more ships, they noclip through each other never crashing :D
07:19:12  <V453000> yeah there are a few reasons why I hate ships :>
07:19:19  <Supercheese> I don't believe there's a limit to number of ships (un)loading at once
07:19:30  <Supercheese> seeing as you can only have 1 dock per station
07:20:07  <planetmaker> there is... the number of ships your company can own. And then the number of ships the game supports ;-)
07:20:15  <Supercheese> XP
07:20:18  <Supercheese> Odd
07:20:19  <V453000> :D
07:20:21  <Supercheese> that's supposed to smiley
07:20:24  <Supercheese> XD
07:20:26  <Supercheese> there we go
07:20:43  <Supercheese> (although different IRC clients may do widely different things anyway)
07:20:49  <planetmaker> which by default is 100 and 64k respectively ;-)
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07:29:27  <planetmaker> oh no, I did it... a new version of swedishrails :-O
07:30:45  <V453000> new tunnels? :)
07:30:51  <planetmaker> with all new shiny tunnel portals. Yes
07:31:24  <planetmaker> and as added benefit also better landscape support due to the new tunnel portal technology
07:31:44  <planetmaker> but, big limitation, only for openttd 1.2.0 or later
07:32:21  <kamnet> Argle bargle!
07:32:50  <V453000> ah
07:33:01  <V453000> yeah tunnels on unchanged landscape is annoying
07:33:16  <planetmaker> well, not anymore :-)
07:34:07  <V453000> was*
07:34:11  <V453000> :)
07:34:20  <planetmaker> :-)
07:34:42  <V453000> there was also some custom tunnels newgrf lying on the forums wasnt there
07:34:57  <planetmaker> Dunno
07:34:58  <V453000> I liked the connected tunnel portal of the adjacent tunnels :)
07:35:00  <Terkhen> planetmaker: now you only need to announce it in the forums :P
07:35:20  <Supercheese> Connected tunnel portals? Psych
07:35:43  <planetmaker> hehe, Terkhen. Given that, I probably will forget, I fear
07:35:54  <planetmaker> But I should. And also ask for updated translations
07:36:18  <andythenorth> Supercheese: interesting comments on FIRS
07:36:49  <Supercheese> The natural solution is to enable production decreases, that way things don't spiral out of control quite as much
07:38:04  <Terkhen> ooh, translations, right
07:38:09  <Terkhen> let me check it, but I can't commit :P
07:38:21  <andythenorth> Supercheese: do you have supplies piling up unused at stations?
07:38:26  <planetmaker> that's something I easily can change, Terkhen :D
07:38:45  <V453000> that excuse didnt work Terkhen  :P
07:38:48  <Supercheese> I do indeed at times, until I decode to run a train to dump them all at a convenient place
07:38:52  <Terkhen> I can't commit because as usual I'm lacking a NewGRF development environment :P
07:39:00  <planetmaker> :D
07:39:02  <Supercheese> Because industries only need a tiny amount, but regularly per month
07:39:07  <V453000> thats better!
07:39:15  <planetmaker> well, no rush there, just give me the file
07:39:39  <Terkhen> and I'm not going to install one given that I plan to switch to linux soon :P
07:39:51  <planetmaker> And yes, I didn't ask for translations before - translations are for 0.8.x with x>0 :-) Better give people the thing which they should translate :-)
07:40:00  <andythenorth> Terkhen: install linux in VM Ware
07:40:13  <planetmaker> vice versa, andythenorth :-)
07:40:27  <Terkhen> andythenorth: I have an image somewhere, but again, I'm not going to bother for just a text file :)
07:40:37  <Supercheese> With FIRS supplies, I try and give all requiring industries their trickles to let them increase production, and then one "lucky" industry gets a torrent of the surplus supplies
07:40:37  <planetmaker> but... I have to re-install my linux... trying to update the distro screwed it completely
07:40:48  <andythenorth> Supercheese: I'm going to solve that somewhat
07:40:55  <Terkhen> planetmaker: which distro, debian?
07:41:06  <planetmaker> yup.
07:41:20  <Terkhen> strange
07:41:25  <planetmaker> seems the default partioning wasn't good... 10G for the system. And the update filled it 100%. which made it fail
07:41:29  <Supercheese> Allow supply stockpiles, and higher production requires more supplies/month?
07:41:33  <planetmaker> and now even the rescue won't boot
07:41:35  <Terkhen> that has happened for me with ubuntu "major updates", but never with debian
07:41:35  <planetmaker> and anyway... better clean
07:41:37  <Terkhen> oh :S
07:42:09  <planetmaker> It's alright. No real data yet, it's all still testing what I want and how things work
07:42:12  <V453000> my ultimate solution to firs is to have a train of X length (say, 5 -> 8 wagons), and have 7 of them wagons for the primary cargo, and 8th is universal wagon. In the station, trains unload their raw cargo and go to depot, where they refit to engineering supplies. But of course only the universal wagon is able to refit to that, so it means these trains pick up a minimal amount; maximum of 1:8 ratio of what raw materials they brought. While this
07:42:38  <Supercheese> autorefit works better there ;)
07:42:41  <V453000> the "helper" trains are like pickup metal, go to machine shop, refit to engineering supplies, transfer supplies back at their station
07:42:51  <Supercheese> Yeah I do that too
07:43:14  <V453000> autorefit doesnt influence anything, only lets you build a normal station
07:43:25  <Supercheese> Removes the need to go to depot
07:43:37  <Supercheese> but yeah, same end result
07:43:49  <V453000> yes but that is pretty boring to me at least
07:44:23  <planetmaker> I find it boring to send a train to depot only to put fruit boxes into the container instead of milk bottles
07:45:06  <V453000> well where-ever I send it I do not really care, as long as it is a solution which is different from the normal stations, thus making the game have more variety in general
07:45:14  <V453000> removing the variety is in my eyes wrong
07:46:01  <Supercheese> Hmm, my current "subways" (really road vehicles that are just shadows, to simulate underground subways) are nearly exactly as I want them, but other surface RVs still interfere with their pathing
07:46:14  <V453000> :D
07:46:17  <Supercheese> no way to fix that short of some patch I suppose
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07:46:22  <V453000> ghost RVs
07:46:51  <V453000> interesting idea though :D
07:47:01  <Supercheese> yeah they're pretty neat, I should post them once I get it to a polished state
07:47:19  <V453000> too bad it cant go below buildings
07:47:32  <V453000> so functionally ... still a bus
07:47:40  <Supercheese> Yeah, but there's so many roads I figure close enough
07:48:02  <V453000> usually :)
07:48:10  <Supercheese> Just... don't try to send them over bridges. Funny things happen :P
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07:48:26  <V453000> :D
07:48:48  <V453000> shadow going over bridge?
07:48:52  <V453000> or something more spectacular?
07:49:31  <Supercheese> I have the offsets tweaked to be a little lower than the bounding box, so just clipping
07:49:35  <Supercheese> same issues with tunnels
07:50:16  <V453000> :D
07:50:24  <Supercheese> then again George's Long Vehicles have the same issues
07:51:03  <V453000> I personally never used long vehicles in a real games because of all those glitches/weird look on curves
07:51:15  <V453000> they are drawn nicely
07:51:18  <V453000> but ...
07:51:32  <V453000> really cant stand a 2 tile long bus turning curve
07:52:18  <Supercheese> I run multiple RV grfs, I use the shorter long vehicles and then eGRVTS
07:52:32  <Supercheese> and others too
07:53:07  <Supercheese> well, good night
07:53:16  <Supercheese> Oh forums back?
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07:53:40  <andythenorth>  I think I can solve supplies in a way that needs no complex mathematical formulas, no complicated display in the industry window, no turning off acceptance
07:53:56  <andythenorth> and also prevents dumping in thousands of tons once to max production
07:54:14  <andythenorth> and will prevent unused supplies piling up
07:54:23  <andythenorth> and will be faster to react to deliveries than current system
07:54:27  <Supercheese> Sounds nearly too good to be true
07:54:28  <andythenorth> and make more sense
07:54:32  <andythenorth> no time to code it :P
07:54:41  <andythenorth> and I want to test it before proclaiming it better
07:55:45  <Supercheese> Valete omnes
07:55:50  <Terkhen> andythenorth: what solution?
07:56:07  * Terkhen is open for NoCarGoal testing games
07:56:12  <Terkhen> :P
07:57:47  <andythenorth> brb
08:06:42  <andythenorth> Terkhen: if industry window says this, would you know how supplies worked?
08:07:06  <andythenorth> only one of each [string_option] would be shown at once
08:10:08  <Terkhen> I would
08:10:15  <Terkhen> the multipliers seem quite big :P
08:10:42  <andythenorth> yup
08:10:54  <andythenorth> that might be tweaked
08:11:05  <andythenorth> it fits neatly with how cb35 works, but that's not essential
08:11:25  <andythenorth> Railroad Tycoon had 1.5x and 2x for a similar mechanic
08:12:03  <Terkhen> :)
08:12:05  <andythenorth> I started with 100% / 150% / 200% / 300% / 400% but that was too complicated :P
08:12:12  <Terkhen> 1.5x and 2.x sounds nice
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08:12:39  <Terkhen> also, IMO all industries producing supplies should produce less supplies
08:12:49  <andythenorth> makes it harder at the start :P
08:12:57  <Terkhen> unless you are planning to move away from the "1 unit is enough" scheme
08:13:03  <andythenorth> I am
08:13:15  <andythenorth> this idea requires 30t or 120t every 3 months
08:13:28  <andythenorth> and production will fall back to 1x if no supplies delivered
08:13:28  <Alberth> moin andythenorth, Terkhen
08:13:32  <Terkhen> hi Alberth :)
08:13:32  <andythenorth> bonjour Alberth
08:13:53  <andythenorth> currently, if you got lucky with random chances, 12t of supplies delivered might be enough to max industry production :P
08:14:19  <andythenorth> K
08:14:27  <andythenorth> need to code the new version and test it :P
08:14:30  <andythenorth> no time :P
08:14:40  <Alberth> that's a normal state :)
08:15:09  <Terkhen> I also find it better that the production can quickly revert to normal levels if you do not supply enough
08:15:32  <Alberth> I am distributing my time over too many projects currently
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08:16:10  <planetmaker> hi Alberth
08:16:14  <Alberth> Terkhen: It makes you wonder what those mine people do with tractors you send them :)
08:16:17  <Alberth> hi planetmaker
08:16:19  <andythenorth> I'll fix it before I play NoCarGoal again :P
08:16:27  <andythenorth> if I have time for NoCarGoal, I have time to fix this :P
08:17:56  * andythenorth would like an industry type abstraction scheme
08:18:00  <andythenorth> for GS
08:18:08  <andythenorth> so we can have a set of labels
08:18:31  <planetmaker> there's the property 0x09 or so... the replacement industry
08:18:31  <andythenorth> flat is better
08:18:38  <Terkhen> such abstraction scheme is something needed for advanced versions of the scenario format too
08:18:58  * andythenorth ponders if it would be namespaced
08:18:59  <andythenorth> probably
08:19:06  <andythenorth> firs.coalmine
08:19:08  <andythenorth> or such
08:19:14  <andythenorth> then publish the namespaces
08:19:21  <andythenorth> as a schema
08:19:36  <andythenorth> then GS authors and scenarios don't need to worry about IDs in an industry set
08:19:55  <planetmaker> industry labels like cargo labels?
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08:19:59  <andythenorth> conveying more type information ('this is a mine') makes my brain hurt
08:20:00  <Alberth> new NewGRF authors can change them to their liking :)
08:20:53  <planetmaker> GS authors and scenario authors should not need worry about IDs at all.  Just about the general type of industry... which kinda the IDs of the original industries do. But they're ... unhandy hex IDs
08:20:55  <andythenorth> I don't want to try and provide too much compatibility info with this
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08:21:24  <andythenorth> different industry sets behave differently, so it's not very meaningful to try and unify "coal mine" across sets
08:21:44  <andythenorth> but it is useful if a GS can get the FIRS namespace, then find FIRS coal mines without needing ID
08:22:13  <andythenorth> it's probably just an action 0 prop, mungled with GRF-ID or such
08:22:31  <Alberth> something that can be supplied by a translation table in squirrel?
08:22:35  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I disagree there
08:22:47  <planetmaker> a coal mine is a coal mine for GS and scenario purposes
08:23:24  <planetmaker> the more interesting thing is factory. is it then a meat packer, an aluminum plant, a ... ?
08:23:30  <andythenorth> for scenario, not for GS
08:23:48  <andythenorth> not if we want to encourage really detailed historical GS (I don't, I think it's a crappy idea)
08:24:31  <planetmaker> andythenorth: if you want a detailed GS, then you need to assume anyway a specific industry newgrf (with md5sum and version)
08:24:55  <planetmaker> but generally you want a coal mine. a steel mill or a sawmill or "other mine" around a place for scenarios
08:25:11  <planetmaker> so: detailed: you can do it, as matching might be unique. But you need an abstraction
08:25:30  <Terkhen> that's the problem with scenarios, having a label for "meat packer" serves no purpose because it is probably an industry unique to a given NewGRF
08:25:44  <Terkhen> therefore, industry labels are not enough
08:25:52  <Terkhen> it would need industry labels and industry classes
08:26:02  <planetmaker> yup
08:26:15  <Terkhen> if it cannot find the industry label, use the industry with the closest match of industry classes
08:26:24  <planetmaker> the industry class imho is served by the existing override property in newgrfs. It could be extended somewhat to some new IDs though
08:26:34  <planetmaker> but maybe something new is better
08:26:57  <Terkhen> planetmaker: that only works when converting scenarios from FIRS to default industries
08:26:57  <planetmaker> actually... class with sub classes maybe low byte and high byte
08:27:05  <Terkhen> not when converting from FIRS to ECS for example
08:27:22  <planetmaker> Terkhen: that of course assumes that they both make use of setting propper substitutes
08:27:45  <planetmaker> of course it can't work 100% correct... they are different after all and not everything has a exact substitute from firs to ecs
08:28:06  <Terkhen> it also won't work between different climates
08:28:16  <Terkhen> toyland :P
08:28:32  <Terkhen> there are good reasons why I'm completely ignoring industries for now in the scenario format
08:28:34  <Terkhen> :D
08:28:46  <Alberth> scenarios are climate specific, aren't they?
08:29:08  <Terkhen> yes, but extended heightmaps are not
08:29:23  <Terkhen> they will have a recommended climate
08:29:34  <Alberth> fancy :)
08:29:40  <Terkhen> but I would not like to force users on a given climate
08:29:58  <Terkhen> the idea is to free scenario creators from these kind of unchangeable decisions
08:30:37  <Terkhen> and from what andythenorth mentioned, I'm not sure that a solution that works for GS/NewGRF would work for the scenario format too
08:30:46  <Alberth> bummer, there goes my idea of making awesome scenarios for getting people to play toyland ;p
08:31:41  <Terkhen> if, after loading the scenario, the climate is set to toyland by default and they don't  notice it, they will start a game in toyland without knowing it
08:31:54  <Terkhen> they are not forced to continue it, but people are lazy :P
08:32:49  <Alberth> depends on how much freedom you want to keep in the format, ie "I want that precise industry + layout" versus "a mining industry here please"
08:33:38  <Alberth> but as pm says, probably the factories are more complicated to do
08:34:05  <andythenorth> what's the purpose?
08:34:18  <Terkhen> andythenorth: create scenarios that are playable with any climate / setting / newgrf selection
08:34:21  <andythenorth> to preserve how history evolves?
08:34:25  <andythenorth> or to avoid breaking chains?
08:34:39  <Terkhen> with a NewGRF change, chains are going to be broken anyways
08:35:25  <Terkhen> so in those changes, generic stuff like "mining industry" "metal/machinery factory" "food factory" should be enough
08:36:02  <Terkhen> if the NewGRF does not change, it could either use "industry labels" or the generic scheme, as decided by the user
08:36:14  <Terkhen> of course, there should always be the option to ignore the scenario data for industries completely and just regenerate them
08:36:21  <andythenorth> needs a graph analysis of input / output cargos
08:36:39  <andythenorth> can't think of any other valid route
08:36:41  * Terkhen wonders if scenario creators will complain if the users can play their scenarios ignoring some parts of them
08:36:53  <Terkhen> andythenorth: IMO it should not be that complicated
08:36:59  <Alberth> you may want to do something like "mine producing cargo A"  and "factory taking A producing B" in a scenario
08:37:18  <planetmaker> Terkhen: they won't... if it's always been that case (with the new format)
08:37:20  <Alberth> where A and B are filled in while instantiating the scenario
08:37:35  <andythenorth> I can't see this working tbh :)
08:37:44  <Terkhen> just create a certain industry selection that is similar to what the scenario developer created, make sure that industry restrictions such as "have at least one instance of this type in the map" are enforced and call it a day
08:38:05  <andythenorth> it's not possible to abstract generic rules; newgrfs are specific
08:38:14  * andythenorth is thinking out loud
08:38:16  <Terkhen> trying to create a map that makes all chains viable and playable from a specific set of data is not pssible
08:38:31  <Alberth> andythenorth: but the user choose those rules by picking the newgrf
08:38:46  <Terkhen> the scenario format will always fail with stuff like FIRS clustered farms anyways, no matter what we do
08:38:59  <Alberth> #a whole lot of rosie!
08:39:05  <Terkhen> unless we make it intelligent enough to group and ungroup industries :P
08:39:26  <Terkhen> therefore, a simple format that makes it possible to switch from one set to another should be enough
08:39:40  <planetmaker> Terkhen: firs only groups them, if auto-generating. not if hand-picked
08:39:51  <Terkhen> but it will always be better to play with the same NewGRF set used when creating the scenario
08:40:04  <Terkhen> planetmaker: you can generate a normal map with FIRS, create scenario, load scenario with ECS or normal industry
08:40:09  <Alberth> "recommended" :)
08:40:10  <planetmaker> thus the process in scenarios when using the option "as suggested by scenario" could us the player-placed conditions
08:40:16  <andythenorth> namespaces
08:40:17  <planetmaker> though... doesn't make sense
08:40:18  <andythenorth> seriously
08:40:28  <andythenorth> scenario should get one layer per known newgrf
08:40:33  <andythenorth> forget generic abstractions for this
08:40:39  <andythenorth> there are only 4-5 industry sets anyway
08:40:51  <planetmaker> andythenorth: that's a PITA to create
08:40:58  <andythenorth> [shrug] :)
08:40:59  <Terkhen> so... one layer for each FIRS version? :P
08:41:08  <planetmaker> as scenario author I want to say "mines here", factory here, oil here, ...
08:41:08  <andythenorth> one layer for each namespace :P
08:41:17  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you can't :)
08:41:21  <andythenorth> it's not a thing :)
08:41:24  <Terkhen> IMO the most important goals of the industry layer are:
08:41:45  <andythenorth> you *could* do it with a massive translation table though :O
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08:41:59  <Terkhen> 1) if you have a scenario with a recommended industry set, it should work correctly with different versions of the industry set as long as they don't change a lot of things
08:42:06  <andythenorth> 'factory' = pick one from [list of FIRS industries matching 'factory']
08:42:11  <Terkhen> 2) you should be able to create generic scenarios, that work reasonabily good with all industry sets
08:42:17  <Terkhen> all other things are not required
08:42:30  <planetmaker> andythenorth: that's what the override property is used for ;-)
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08:42:56  <andythenorth> planetmaker: so you've already accepted the massive limitations of that?
08:42:58  <planetmaker> Terkhen: indeed. firs->ecs and vice versa need not work too well
08:43:02  <Terkhen> a FIRS -> ECS conversion will not break anything ingame... but, the gameplay itself will probably be broken and we should not try to fix it at all
08:43:04  <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes
08:43:07  <andythenorth> others might not understand how limited it is :P
08:43:14  <andythenorth> like, almost useless :)
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08:43:27  <Terkhen> heightmaps currently give you a warning when you select sizes that will result in a broken map
08:43:43  <Terkhen> the industry layer will give you similar warnings with regard to your newgrf selection, and call it a day
08:43:57  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I think the override / substitute property might get a few more variables. Or maybe a new for this purpose (aka classes) but still. Would allow some basic translation cross-grf
08:44:00  <Terkhen> (as long as the scenario has a preferred industry NewGRF set)
08:44:27  <planetmaker> thus a scenario could include class-ID of industery, preferred newgrfID and industryID
08:44:38  <planetmaker> thus same newgrf would work well.
08:44:56  <planetmaker> other newgrfs might work somewhat using industry from the same classes
08:45:04  <Terkhen> for newgrf conversions, IMO the existing property "Industry production type (0B)" should be enough
08:45:18  <Terkhen> or something like that
08:45:20  <planetmaker> if the wiki only worked :D
08:45:30  <Terkhen> we don't need complicated schemes
08:45:30  <planetmaker> I think that's a bit too coarse, Terkhen
08:45:30  <Terkhen>
08:45:32  <Terkhen> it works for me
08:45:33  <planetmaker> but maybe not
08:45:42  <planetmaker> oh, it's back :-)
08:45:57  <Terkhen> "place organic industry here, place organic processing industry here, place goods producing industry here"
08:45:58  <planetmaker> I meant substitute actually all the time
08:46:02  <Terkhen> and forget about it
08:46:10  <planetmaker> 0x08
08:46:13  <Terkhen> if substitute works for stuff like toyland then we could use substitute
08:46:26  <planetmaker> substitute has an ID for every ttd industry
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08:46:50  <planetmaker> thus does a bad job at ecs/firs tertiary. but better than just organic / goods producing
08:46:53  <Terkhen> so if I have a toyland map and I convert it to temperate, which information can we use from the substitute?
08:47:09  <andythenorth> I would rather go a bit further to combine new scenario + NoConomy
08:47:21  <andythenorth> and let map contain seed points for industry classes (or cargos)
08:47:28  <andythenorth> gameplay is about cargo
08:47:39  <andythenorth> maybe this should be modelled as cargo providers / accepters
08:47:47  <planetmaker> Terkhen: probably none ;-)
08:47:47  <andythenorth> and nodes are otherwise black boxes to scenario
08:48:03  <planetmaker> except industry locations
08:48:25  <Terkhen> andythenorth: the scenario format only is meant to represent the ingame information in a newgrf agnostic way, what you are mentioning now should apply to normal maps first, and then we should look into a way to represent it into the new scenario format
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08:49:48  <andythenorth> how would seed points get onto a normal map? :o
08:50:37  <Terkhen> through map generation :)
08:50:44  <Terkhen> they should also take into account industries appearing in the future
08:50:52  <Terkhen> and that they are going to appear at random places
08:50:55  <Terkhen> good luck :P
08:51:06  <andythenorth> indeed :P
08:51:17  <andythenorth> that's why I thought they were a scenario thing
08:51:28  <planetmaker> well. The future randomness could make use of them. It's openttd code
08:51:35  <planetmaker> not newgrf code
08:51:42  <planetmaker> which chooses / suggests places
08:51:45  <Terkhen> but they are heavily influenced by newgrf code in ways that are difficult for openttd code to take into account
08:51:58  <planetmaker> the newgrf only can say "yes" or "no" to a suggested place
08:52:12  <andythenorth> I was hoping they had nothing to do with newgrf
08:52:26  <andythenorth> it's already known that newgrf is a bad approach to this specific problem
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08:53:45  <andythenorth> always
08:53:47  <planetmaker> I'm thinking actually that the placement rules for industries can be too extensive on the newgrf side
08:54:01  <andythenorth> I think they're hideous in newgrf :P
08:54:04  <planetmaker> like many things would get easier, if e.g. firs could not decide to place farms in clusters
08:54:24  <andythenorth> tricky
08:54:31  <planetmaker> that the only thing which would suffice to matter to firs is the landslope beneath
08:54:40  <planetmaker> but... that would make many things impossible again
08:54:40  <andythenorth> some are needed, like spacing conflicting / neigbouring types
08:54:42  <planetmaker> not nice either
08:55:00  <andythenorth> losing the clusters would also require adjustment of production amounts
08:55:15  <andythenorth> so GS / scenario would need control over newgrf production
08:55:18  <planetmaker> it's one of the things which cannot be interfaced easily. if at all in a generic way
08:55:52  <planetmaker> thus, I guess, if you want to make use of industry placement in GS, you're either bound to a very crude control or you need to bind it to a specific newgrf
08:56:00  <andythenorth> yup
08:56:11  <andythenorth> which means you need an abstraction from type = ID
08:56:18  <andythenorth> which is where I started this :)
08:56:23  <planetmaker> :-)
08:56:43  <andythenorth> I don't think an abstraction is very hard
08:56:59  <andythenorth> newgrf just needs an action 0 prop per industry (label), or a translation table
08:57:11  <andythenorth> then publish those publicly
08:57:19  <andythenorth> and namespace them :P
08:57:34  <Alberth> :)     /me wonders how to publish secretly :)
08:57:35  <frosch123> lol @ fs#5286
08:58:14  <planetmaker> he
08:58:35  <andythenorth> 5280 can be fixed
08:58:38  <andythenorth> just allow it
08:58:41  <andythenorth> I like the jumping trains
09:01:00  <andythenorth> Terkhen: new scenario format uses colours in pngs to place industries?
09:01:24  <Alberth> andythenorth: there is no industry placement in the new format yet
09:01:29  <andythenorth> use pngs :P
09:01:51  <andythenorth> then we write a PIL program that translates between the industry sets
09:01:55  <andythenorth> using a lookup table
09:01:58  <andythenorth> 'community maintained' :P
09:02:35  <andythenorth> simples
09:03:17  <andythenorth> we can also rip out all map gen
09:03:29  <andythenorth> and make it use scenario format
09:03:39  <andythenorth> then ship map gen plug ins
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09:05:02  <andythenorth> newgrf industry placement could then largely be dropped
09:05:14  <andythenorth> in favour of shipping a map gen plugin in the .tar
09:05:31  <andythenorth> so FIRS would have a plugin to do things like clustering, place some industries near rivers etc
09:05:45  <andythenorth> and player could swap out that plugin if they want :P
09:05:54  <andythenorth> this will be awesome :)
09:05:57  <andythenorth> let's write code :)
09:06:58  <andythenorth> scenarios could do one of three things:
09:07:09  <andythenorth> - specify what should be on all layers
09:07:21  <andythenorth> - specify what should be on some layers, and delegate others to specific plugins
09:07:37  <andythenorth> - specify some layers, delegate others to plugins of players choosing
09:07:57  <andythenorth> or random :P
09:08:33  <Alberth> coming up with specs is always the easy part :)
09:08:41  <andythenorth> ach it's only png mashing :)
09:08:43  <andythenorth> can't be hard
09:08:56  <andythenorth> also forget GS trying to control map at map gen
09:09:07  <andythenorth> just give GS a way to delegate to certain plugins
09:09:11  <andythenorth> or fixed pngs
09:09:28  <andythenorth> I should draw a flow / stack for this :)
09:09:40  <andythenorth> but I have to go to a toddler birthday party
09:09:49  <Alberth> you remember what you said an hour ago? :)
09:09:58  <andythenorth> this solves nearly everything except industry opening / closing :P
09:10:08  <andythenorth> oh yes, fix FIRS first :P
09:10:31  <Alberth> and perhaps learn c++ next :D
09:10:49  <andythenorth> do any of you have the slightest clue what I mean by the above? :P
09:11:25  <andythenorth> anyway, /me -> toddlers
09:11:28  <andythenorth> bbl
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09:13:56  <kamnet> Well, darn! Just when I had a FIRS-related question for Andy
09:14:56  <kamnet> Just noticed I got some coal mines showing only 49% of product transported, stations are rated poor, but I got a huge queue of trucks waiting to load, all the trucks are making a profit and are only 2 years old.
09:15:13  <kamnet> And they're getting 100+ boxes of supplies every month
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09:17:23  <Alberth> perhaps the trucks take too long to deliver?
09:18:27  <Alberth> or too long to load, ie not enough visits?
09:19:04  <Alberth> as an experiment, you can try to switch off 'full load', and see what happens
09:19:28  <Alberth> although I don't know the exact mechanisms at work there
09:19:37  <kamnet> If they take too long to deliver, wouldn't they lose money instead of profit?
09:20:09  <kamnet> As for distance, they're just 20 or so tiles away from their drop-off point
09:21:58  <kamnet> Although, weird, just looked again, about 1 week has gone by in the game, and they're ow rated Very Good. Still got vehicles queued up, but coal is flowing faster. Weird.
09:22:35  <Alberth> recession?
09:23:00  <kamnet> Maybe. But jsut a one-week recession?
09:23:10  <Alberth> too short
09:23:24  <kamnet> I forgot, I also got daylength patch running here, so, who knows..
09:24:02  <Alberth> daylength patches are very good at messing up timings in the game :)
09:24:35  <planetmaker> lol, yes
09:24:40  <planetmaker> all bets are off then
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09:25:52  <kamnet> *shrugs* Not gonna worry too much about it then.
09:26:13  <andythen_> So the 'newgame' dialog would be replaced
09:26:20  <frosch123> kamnet: maybe a plane crash nearby?
09:26:28  <frosch123> they reset the rating of stations to 0
09:26:35  <kamnet> Not using any planes yet.
09:27:01  <andythen_> With a nice stack of options for terrain, towns, rivers etc
09:27:57  <kamnet> *ponders* Be kinda neat if there was a plane that came down and scooped coal out of the coal fields like fire fighting planes scoop water out of lakes.
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09:28:07  <kamnet> There's an idea for NUTS :D
09:28:36  <andythen_> Each option would have these choices: provided by scenario (locked), use plugin, load png
09:28:54  <Alberth> kamnet: just throw the coal into the air at the right moment :)
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09:29:03  <andythen_> Plugins would have parameters
09:29:38  <Alberth> andythen_: you're day-dreaming I think, please wake up
09:29:39  <andythen_> Actual map gen pipeline would use png as input
09:29:44  <kamnet> OH!! I just figured out why the stations showed poor ratings. I forgot that I have a different company servicing them now instead of "mine", so the ratings under "my" company have gone to crap.
09:30:38  <andythen_> :p
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09:41:00  <planetmaker> wth...! OpenTTD crashed after I downloaded one NewGRF via online content
09:44:24  <frosch123> i hope you have a proper crashlog or core file :)
09:44:27  <planetmaker> hm... even reported
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09:45:03  <planetmaker> normal crash... but it's not telling much. FS 5281
09:45:25  <frosch123> "any single arbitrary file"?
09:45:31  <frosch123> you mean you can reproduce the issue?
09:46:54  <andythen_> Alberth I'm 100% serious :)
09:47:02  <frosch123> otherwise i have to reject your report, you are using a modified version :p
09:47:18  <andythen_> Although i may be also smoking crack :p
09:49:04  <planetmaker> frosch123: it's only sbn's patch :-)
09:49:19  <frosch123> ok, accepted, it also crashes for me :)
09:49:31  <frosch123> let's get a proper backtrace
09:49:44  <frosch123> ah, lordaro broke it
09:49:49  <frosch123> it crashes in one of his functions :)
09:49:52  <planetmaker> :D
09:50:00  <Zuu> planetmaker: I'm not able to reproduce it with an AI. A NewGRF however did it. :-)
09:50:51  <frosch123> yeah, ContentInfo::GetTextfile looks a bit different for newgrf than for other stuff
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09:52:06  <Terkhen> andythen_: the new scenario format is meant to be independent from openttd itself; it includes layers or object files for certain info; for stuff not included or that the user decides not to use for scenario creation, the usual generation tools from OpenTTD are meant to be used
09:52:19  <Terkhen> therefore, your "plugins" would be an independent project for OpenTTD itself
09:52:30  <Terkhen> but, since the new scenario format is meant to be independent
09:52:39  <Terkhen> you could always generate a scenario with an external tool
09:52:41  <Alberth> andythen_: most grand plans are taken very serious when they are drawn. This one looks feasible, but is at least a year away
09:52:59  <Terkhen> and sorry, I was at the phone :P
09:53:11  <Alberth> probably longer, and builds one several layers of other plans
09:54:18  <Terkhen> the scenario format plans do not include map generation of any kind, just a way to abstract decisions that were previously set in stone and, as a nice bonus, allow scenarios to be edited easily by external tools
09:54:24  <frosch123> planetmaker: Zuu:
09:56:11  <Zuu> If the issue is that FindGRFConfig can return null, then it does seem to fix that.
09:56:38  <Zuu> But I haven't read the full scope of that code.
09:57:06  <frosch123> yeah, it happens when it updates the shading state of the view textfile buttons after download but before grf rescan
09:57:35  <frosch123> so, the content claims to be downloaded while FindGRFConfig gives NULL
09:57:55  <frosch123> so, it only happens if you download a newgrf whose item is still seleted in the gui
09:58:07  <frosch123> i.e. it does usually not happen if you download only updates :)
10:02:03  <frosch123> planetmaker: btw. for your new debian installation: you might want to put "ulimit -c unlimited" into ~/.bashrc
10:02:28  <frosch123> that enables core files, so you can easily get backtraces of every program that crashes
10:02:37  <frosch123> without attaching a debugger in advance
10:02:54  <andythen_> Terkhen so does openttd parse scenario format to create new game?
10:02:56  <frosch123> actually, that might also work for osx
10:03:21  <andythen_> Or is there another tool ?
10:03:49  <Terkhen> andythen_: openttd parses the scenario and creates a map with that info
10:04:30  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24508 /trunk/src/network/core/tcp_content.cpp: -Fix [FS#5281] (24488): Content GUI crashed after downloading a NewGRF while it is selected.
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10:04:58  <andythen_> So if output of 'map gen' was scenario format...?
10:05:12  <Terkhen> openttd could load it, yes
10:05:37  <planetmaker> ah, that sounds like a good advise, frosch123. thanks
10:06:28  <frosch123> if you want to test, just kill openttd via "kill -6 `pidof openttd`"
10:06:53  <frosch123> it should write a core file, which you can evaluate via "gdb <exexcutable> <core file>"
10:09:54  <andythen_> Terkhen how will openttd handle a layer that scenario doesn't provide?
10:10:22  <frosch123> andythen_: there is a whole specs page on the wiki :)
10:10:40  <andythen_> Meh, on my phone ;)
10:10:49  <planetmaker> first I have to finish my upgrade to wheezy though :D
10:11:07  <frosch123> did you start with wheezy in the first place?
10:11:13  <planetmaker> nope
10:11:23  <Terkhen> andythen_: layers not provided are generated normally by openttd
10:11:25  <frosch123> be aware that wheezy comes with gnome 3 then :p
10:11:43  <frosch123> i was lucky that i installed wheezy only in a vm
10:11:48  <planetmaker> but I found squeeze lacking a lot of things... especially support for basically all the essential hardware. And when I backport everything anyway...
10:11:54  <frosch123> so i know what crap awates me after update
10:12:14  <planetmaker> I can always then switch the window manager :-)
10:12:26  <planetmaker> and what I see... I actually find it quite well-looking.
10:12:30  <planetmaker> Looks osx-ish :D
10:12:57  <frosch123> yeah, maybe you never learned usability :p
10:13:12  <planetmaker> :D
10:13:23  <frosch123> do you have a one-button mouse btw :p
10:13:34  <planetmaker> I was not very fond of the the default UI of debian squeeze really
10:13:58  <planetmaker> on this PC I have a "normal" mouse
10:14:35  <frosch123> it always amazed me how old macs had one button, ms had two, and independent stuff had at least 3
10:15:21  <andythen_> I have no buttons at all
10:15:40  <frosch123> your finger is a button
10:15:45  <frosch123> just watch it more closely
10:17:27  <Terkhen> andythen_: you could make an external tool that generates custom made scenarios for FIRS, if that's what you are thinking
10:19:27  <CaptObvious> ugh, more newgrf issues on a dedicated server
10:19:41  <CaptObvious> I did "content update", waited a bit, "content select all" and "content download"
10:19:48  <CaptObvious> which worked fine, it downloaded all of the content
10:20:26  <CaptObvious> now when I'm trying to activate the newgrfs by copying and pasting the [newgrf] section from my desktop's openttd.cfg the server is launching with no newgrfs active and it empties out that section of openttd.cfg
10:21:00  <Alberth> server was running while editing the openttd.cfg?  don't do that
10:21:00  <frosch123> usually a / \ issue in the paths
10:21:25  <CaptObvious> openttd isn't smart enough to run a replace "\" with "/" on unix systems?
10:21:53  <Alberth> \ has a different meaning than / at unix systems
10:22:00  <CaptObvious> true
10:22:28  <frosch123> Alberth: i doubt we support that meaning :p
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10:23:00  <CaptObvious> frosch123 - \ is an escape character in unix
10:23:06  <Alberth> frosch123: a filename with a \ is not allowed?
10:23:34  <CaptObvious> yep, you guys were right, it was a \ / issue
10:23:45  <CaptObvious> thanks :)
10:24:06  <frosch123> Alberth: i doubt we do any escaping there
10:24:11  <frosch123> we will just read it as "\"
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10:24:28  <Alberth> frosch123: yep, and \ is a legal character in filenames :p
10:24:28  <drac_boy> hi
10:24:38  <CaptObvious> also, off the top of your heads, any idea if the day length patch is considering being included in trunk?  it's being requested a lot by people on my server but I don't want to use anything that I can't get from BaNaNaS because...well...people are stupid
10:24:49  <CaptObvious> and I don't want to have to support someone manually unzipping stuff
10:24:52  <frosch123> isn't "/" legal as well, if you escape it?
10:25:06  <Alberth> frosch123: not afaik
10:25:22  <Alberth> CaptObvious: daylength patch is not working properly yet
10:25:36  <Alberth> for all patches that claim to implement it :)
10:26:09  <CaptObvious> that's one I'm really waiting for.  going from fast electric->monorail->maglev is way too fast,  you spend all of your time around that period buying new trains instead of expanding your network
10:26:18  <Terkhen> to my knowledge, none of the daylenght patches is finished
10:26:20  <Alberth> frosch123: %  touch a\/b   <-- touch: cannot touch `a/b': No such file or directory
10:26:53  <drac_boy> alberth btw were there any problems or they just for some reason didn't feel like including the variable vehicle % loading patch for quite some time?
10:26:59  <CaptObvious> but if one does get finished and works properly, would it be included in trunk or is it something the devs have said no to?
10:27:13  <drac_boy> that was kinda an interesting feature re not having to wait for full load if you didn't want to
10:27:48  <Alberth> CaptObvious: usually the disagreement is about the notion of "finished"
10:27:49  <CaptObvious> drac_boy - along a similar vein, I'd love it if I could make a train with some cargo leave a station and go to its next order if another empty train that can carry the same cargo arrives at the station
10:28:05  <CaptObvious> like "load until reinforced"
10:28:14  <drac_boy> CaptObvious sounds a bit more complicated to me tbh but meh :)
10:28:15  <Alberth> drac_boy: ?
10:28:58  <drac_boy> alberth in some of the alternative build (I forgot which one tho) you could click where the 'full load' button normally was and it would pop down a list of between 10% to 100% in steps of tens
10:29:02  <Alberth> CaptObvious: one path I can still see open is to extend eg electric by means of a newgrf
10:29:05  <Terkhen> CaptObvious: usually we say "no" to things for a reason, you know :P
10:29:13  <drac_boy> so you could make a train wait to get 'some' cargo but not have to keep sitting there for a full load
10:29:33  <Terkhen> to my knowledge there is no concept problem with the daylength patch, so probably the only issue is "finished and correct"
10:30:20  <Alberth> drac_boy: I don't remember seeing a patch for that, no idea why you ask me about it
10:30:29  <Terkhen> but since the patch has to touch almost every part of the game, it is a huge beast to tame
10:30:49  <drac_boy> heh sorry its just that when you said 'for all patches' I kinda started thinking about that for some reason :->
10:31:33  <Alberth> drac_boy: that refered to the collection of patches that claim to implement daylength
10:32:03  <CaptObvious> is it not just extending the amount of ticks per day?
10:32:13  <CaptObvious> although I suppose you'd end up with cities covering the entire map
10:32:28  <Alberth> broken industry production, messed up newgrfs
10:32:43  <Alberth> and so the mess starts :)
10:32:44  <frosch123> Terkhen: actually, the only problem of the daylength patch is the concept problem :p
10:33:06  <frosch123> most of them have no concept at all and randomly modify some timings
10:33:12  <frosch123> which totallly break other timings
10:33:14  <drac_boy> CaptObvious what could be interesting to me tho is if they would bring programmable signals over to openttd finally so there wouldn't be a need to use waypoints grouped together
10:33:19  <Alberth> broken payments, vehilce speeds, etc etc
10:33:31  <CaptObvious> drac_boy - another thing I'd love is signals by cargo type
10:33:34  <drac_boy> waypoints are still too primative anyway
10:33:52  <drac_boy> CaptObvious thats exactly what programmable signals is btw, it can sort by either the locomotive or wagon stats whatever way you wanted to put it
10:33:53  <Alberth> drac_boy: programmable signals????? yuck
10:33:53  <CaptObvious> goods trains to these platforms, passenger trains to those platforms...
10:34:05  <Terkhen> frosch123: but are those problems solvable by design or not?
10:34:09  <drac_boy> CaptObvious I use them like *all* the times in patch games :->
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10:34:29  <CaptObvious> I can see them being useful in specific circumstances, but not really all the time
10:34:41  <Alberth> drac_boy: people have a lot of trouble to understand normal signals already
10:34:41  <CaptObvious> I had one station in my last game that could have done with them
10:34:41  <drac_boy> so you can watch a station that is one single name but has 3+ platforms and yet trains are always going to specific platforms thanks to the signals
10:34:41  <frosch123> Terkhen: noone ever checked properly
10:34:51  <CaptObvious> yes, but that's cosmetic
10:34:54  <CaptObvious> I mean practical reason
10:35:01  <frosch123> noone knows what stuff exactly happens in tileloops, onnewday, onnewmonth and so on
10:35:16  <frosch123> a proper daylength patch would likely move stuff between them
10:35:24  <drac_boy> Alberth then why does trunk still include other confusing things not to mention when 'transfer' actually took rather than leave cargo for a while before? :)
10:35:31  <drac_boy> but meh
10:35:38  <Alberth> drac_boy: we need a better / different mechanism than hooking it up to an complicated thing, which makes it totally incomprehensible for most users
10:36:45  <drac_boy> frosch123 if i recall right one of the manual hack at daylength before caused longer date but the money still moved at same tick so you could earn more money
10:36:58  <Alberth> ie you don't really want to program signals, but it is just the mechanism chosen currently
10:36:59  <drac_boy> that was one of the issue with it, don't know if the patches fixed that?
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10:38:50  <frosch123> drac_boy: see, that is already the problem of the concept :) you just stated that daylength should not change in the amount of income during a realtime period... but wouldn't that totally break the game? you would have to wait way longer for enough money to build to your second train
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10:40:12  <drac_boy> frosch123 heh well simple solution would be to chop the prices by more or less equal amount but that'll mean a new release of the grf for a specific build tho so I guess thats why it might get little uptake for now :)
10:43:59  <drac_boy> CaptObvious is there any other things beside signals and variable loading that you've wanted to see? just wondering
10:46:12  <Terkhen> frosch123: ok
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10:50:45  <CaptObvious> drac_boy - day length modification
10:51:17  <drac_boy> heh
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10:51:30  <CaptObvious> frosch123 - with day length increase I just want it so ingame days pass slower.  I'd want income and everything else to stay the same
10:51:37  <CaptObvious> I'd just like to have a network game last a week or more
10:52:12  <frosch123> CaptObvious: well, just take a look how much stuff is attached to time
10:52:36  <frosch123> industry production, industry production changes, duration of certain town actions
10:52:46  <frosch123> town growth, income, running cost...
10:52:51  <frosch123> time tables..
10:53:05  <frosch123> all that stuff is usually discussed when it comes to "changing speed of time"
10:53:17  <frosch123> while i think most peoply only want "different vehicle introduction dates"
10:53:29  <frosch123> and "i do not care about house graphics introduction dates"
10:53:39  <drac_boy> different introduction....?
10:54:25  <frosch123> well, i guess 90% of daylength users are happy if a newgrf modifies vehicle intro dates, so that steam is the technology until 2400
10:54:30  <frosch123> and monorail comes in year 3000
10:54:35  <drac_boy> oh heh
10:54:53  <frosch123> the whole daylength discussion is just beside the point imo :p
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10:57:50  <NGC3982> Afternoon.
11:04:18  <drac_boy> frosch123 if you don't mind me asking, why is it that ottd for some reason can't build rails/roads right over tunnel portals? always wondered about that
11:04:22  <drac_boy> hi NGC3982
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11:05:29  <frosch123> because noone coded it in a way we like
11:08:10  <frosch123> anyway, i wanted to code a gs today :)
11:08:18  <Terkhen> interesting, which one? :P
11:08:27  <frosch123> can't tell before finished
11:08:34  <frosch123> but the project name is "silicon valley"
11:10:51  <drac_boy> frosch123 does anyone ever still talk about bridges over buildings and/or other bridges or its been left in the dust pile?
11:11:17  <frosch123> we have bridges over objects
11:11:39  <frosch123> other than that i cannot remember any discussion of the past you might be referring to
11:12:00  <frosch123> hmm... if i start gs based on zuus gs
11:12:10  <Rubidium> I'd reckon nobody really cared adding stuff to the NewGRF specs to accomplish that
11:12:12  <drac_boy> mm I always found it a bit silly when you had a town in a valley starting at level 2 and you were building rails up one side of the valley at level 6 and found that you couldn't build a bridge across as it would take you right over the town
11:12:17  <frosch123> i guess i keep zuus copyright notice, right?
11:12:27  <drac_boy> or the multiplayer games where one bridge is in way of another
11:12:40  <Rubidium> even then, it'd only be for NewGRFs (for compatability reasons)
11:12:44  <drac_boy> at least its not a big nitpick yet
11:13:32  <frosch123> i change it into a "orignal copyright of Minimal GS"
11:13:51  <drac_boy> tunnels on the other hand shows exactly how it should work... you can't intersect two at same level but if north-south tunnel is at level 4 and east-west one is at level 5 they don't have any problem
11:14:15  <Zuu> frosch123: you have my permission to change the copyright notice to your own
11:14:34  <Rubidium> drac_boy: except that the tunnel graphics are not suitable for building stuff on
11:15:53  <Zuu> frosch123: you may find FS#5206 and #5283 worth to apply if you need added debugging capabilities.
11:16:10  <frosch123> i am not that far yet :p
11:21:14  <drac_boy> oh there was something I meant to ask for a bit of a while now...whats with certain banana grfs that have no apparent forum thread link or anything at all?
11:21:24  <drac_boy> in the web list that is
11:21:52  <Rubidium> the author didn't bother to enter an URL
11:22:15  <drac_boy> mm it can be a bit silly when you find out the grf needs a parameter but you don't know where to look
11:22:35  <Rubidium> in the readme?
11:22:42  <drac_boy> at least theres one grf that I don't think needed a url anyway..the reduced pax/mail payment. its too simple to need any help
11:22:42  <Terkhen> indeed :P
11:22:42  <Rubidium> but I reckon that wasn't added either
11:23:10  <Terkhen> now it is possible to add readme and a website link to NewGRFs, but I don't know if that's been adopted by most or not
11:24:00  <Rubidium> so.. should h2h + nocargoal work?
11:24:32  <Zuu> is Yexos h2h patch up to date with nogo?
11:24:59  <Rubidium> it's lagging 6 revs
11:25:16  <frosch123> Zuu: it is updated, but it did not quite work last week
11:25:33  <Zuu> ok, I didn't knew it had been updated lately.
11:26:13  <Zuu> I guess it will work with nocargoal. No cargoal just monitor all towns for cargo arrival.
11:29:18  <Alberth> the question is whether the industries know they are being used in a h2h game :p
11:30:17  <kamnet> Hm. Any chance that the petrol stations in TTRS can be coded so that they face towards a road, instead of away from it?
11:30:54  <drac_boy> kamnet problem with town buildings is they're only placed once and don't know whats in the adjacent tiles (afaik) so any sort of alignments? forget it
11:30:56  <Zuu> The Swedish House set had a such feature, so it is probably possible.
11:31:03  <Rubidium> why not? If it consistently faces away from it, it shouldn't be too hard to face the other way
11:31:11  <drac_boy> I could be wrong tho from what I've managed to read of the newgrf specs
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11:31:45  <kamnet> I'm guessing is that the petrol station is only drawn in one orientation, since it is quite a bit old now.
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11:32:08  <drac_boy> station tiles sometimes sorta annoys me a bit this way when you find out the one tile you wanted to use is just aligned on the wrong side of track :-s
11:35:55  <drac_boy> about sides...I still have to figure giving it a try one day but is it ever possible to have a single vehicle sprite with two smoke sources?
11:40:55  <kamnet>
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11:55:19  <NGC3982> You guys know of any good NewGRF that give lots of maglev/fast trains after 2000-2050? :)
11:56:09  <drac_boy> heh no idea sorry :p  all only because I prefer economical trains ;)
11:56:16  <NGC3982> :)
11:57:46  <frosch123> maybe nuts, but i never played it so far
11:57:47  <drac_boy> NGC3982 how about 70km/h for a small weekly expense .. and can haul 300 passengers behind it? :P
11:57:53  <drac_boy> heh heh
11:58:03  <frosch123> iirc. ukrs also adds future train
11:58:10  <frosch123> steam powered maglev or so
12:06:33  <NGC3982> :D
12:06:44  <Zuu> Oh, the DictatorAI readme states that you need OpenTTD 1.5 to run it :-)
12:07:12  <CaptObvious> damn, and I left my time machine at work :(
12:07:17  <Terkhen> the source code of that version should come in handy
12:07:54  <CaptObvious> is there a list somewhere of what features are going to be added for the next version?
12:07:55  <drac_boy> 1.5? 0_o
12:08:03  <drac_boy> heh CaptObvious
12:08:17  <Zuu> So maybe one should check the DictatorAI source code and see if it contains hints of what will come in OpenTTD 1.5? :-p
12:08:27  <CaptObvious> NGC3982 - vaccuum tube trains
12:08:37  <NGC3982> oh, ok
12:08:55  <Terkhen> CaptObvious: nope
12:09:00  <CaptObvious> it's insanely expensive
12:09:04  <CaptObvious> like 20k+ per tile for track
12:09:17  <drac_boy> sounds good to me :)
12:09:17  <CaptObvious> but it's reallyreallyreallyreallyreally fast
12:09:20  <Terkhen> well, you can check the revision log to know which features have been added in trunk already
12:09:22  <drac_boy> considering how much you'll earn back anyway
12:09:40  <CaptObvious> plus by that point you're usually sitting on billions
12:09:46  <CaptObvious> so cost really isn't an object
12:10:10  <frosch123> ottd 1.5 fixed that
12:10:23  <NGC3982> CaptObvious: that's ok.
12:10:47  <NGC3982> I notet that when we play on my server, the gameplay usually halt around 2000-2050, since no new trains are available
12:10:59  <CaptObvious> it says on the forum post that it's a combination of maglev + a vaccuum tube to hit really high speeds
12:11:04  <CaptObvious> yet it uses the monorail track
12:11:13  <NGC3982> And yet, he have only tried grf's where we can haul pax.
12:11:14  <NGC3982> ok
12:11:16  <NGC3982> Ok*
12:11:30  <CaptObvious> I've never bothered with passengerws
12:11:33  <CaptObvious> passengers*
12:11:33  <CaptObvious> ever
12:11:51  <Zuu> Play NoCarGoal and get a passenger goal :-)
12:12:06  <CaptObvious> is it a grf or a patch?
12:12:11  <Zuu> neither
12:12:17  <Zuu> its a Game Script
12:12:26  <CaptObvious> is it on bananas?
12:12:26  <Zuu> It only works on nightly/1.3+
12:12:30  <CaptObvious> oh
12:12:32  <Zuu> But it is on bananas.
12:12:33  <CaptObvious> nevermind then
12:12:42  <Terkhen> nightlies don't bite, you know :P
12:12:45  <NGC3982> I was on the influence that a patch was a game script.
12:12:48  <NGC3982> :)
12:12:54  <CaptObvious> it's a hassle getting my players to download nightlies
12:12:59  <CaptObvious> I just run the server on stable
12:13:05  <Terkhen> oh, for servers it is more of a PITA, yup
12:13:24  <CaptObvious> and I won't put anything on the server that isn't on bananas because that's also a hassle
12:13:26  <CaptObvious> I'm lazy you see
12:13:36  <Terkhen> practical :P
12:13:36  <Zuu> CaptObvious: In OTTDAU I can set up installations that follow any server that use nightlies/stables.
12:13:43  <planetmaker> CaptObvious: it *is* on bananas ;-)
12:13:49  <drac_boy> CaptObvious if you're too lazy to download grf then how did you even download the game in first place? :)
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12:13:56  <CaptObvious> planetmaker - yes, but it requires a nightly
12:13:59  <planetmaker> and for a change, a nightly server might be interesting. You'd have the bleeding edge
12:14:01  <Zuu> And in this case, by 'I', I mean eany user, not just me.
12:14:10  <Zuu> any*
12:14:18  <CaptObvious> drac_boy - it's not about me downloading grfs, it's about the retarded monkies that are most of the playerbase downloading them
12:14:36  <Terkhen> drac_boy: downloading a game and running it is one thing, downloading 3 or 4 files, unpacking them and placing them in the correct folder is tiresome
12:15:01  <drac_boy> CaptObvious likely the same players that have no clue how to build anything..hence why I prefer to not have them :)
12:15:08  <drac_boy> Terkhen unpack? whats that
12:15:10  <CaptObvious> plus I'm trying to attract new players on reddit, I want to keep it as easy as possible to get on
12:15:17  <Terkhen> unzip/untar/unrar
12:15:25  <drac_boy> Terkhen no clue what that is..never had to do it :)
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12:15:45  <Terkhen> I doubt it :P
12:16:34  <Terkhen> unless you have been using computers for just a few years and you are using some modern OS that does verything by itself
12:17:05  <drac_boy> is macos and xppro 'modern os' to you?
12:17:11  <CaptObvious> yes
12:17:26  <CaptObvious> anything that supports a mouse is a modern OS :P
12:17:34  <planetmaker> wow. amigaos
12:17:40  <planetmaker> actually... msdos
12:17:41  <drac_boy> CaptObvious then you're probably using windows 3.1? :p
12:17:48  <CaptObvious> windows 3.1 supported mice
12:17:53  <Terkhen> drac_boy: I don't know what is xppro, but the people I know that use macos have been unpacking stuff for sure :P
12:17:58  <Alberth> plain DOS already did :)
12:18:01  <CaptObvious> Terkhen - he means Windows XP Pro
12:18:16  <drac_boy> Terkhen thing to keep in mind is macos only has stuffit and maczip ... nothing in way of other compressions without bugs yet
12:18:30  <CaptObvious> frankly, if you're a serious computer user and you're still on XP, you're doing something wrong.
12:18:34  <Terkhen> and that is not unpacking how? :P
12:18:40  <CaptObvious> drac_boy - OS X supports zip files natively
12:18:43  <Alberth> drac_boy: tar and gzip ?
12:18:51  <drac_boy> CaptObvious its not osx silly
12:18:52  <planetmaker> CaptObvious: osx != macos
12:18:53  <CaptObvious> and tar/gzip files
12:19:01  <drac_boy> and btw I don't see any reason to replace xp yet
12:19:02  <NGC3982> Bah.
12:19:05  <NGC3982> Maglev is boring
12:19:06  <CaptObvious>
12:19:13  <drac_boy> especially when it'll cost too much more money otherwise
12:19:14  <CaptObvious> drac_boy - 7 is so much better.
12:19:17  <Terkhen> the process of converting a tar/zip/xz/whatever file into the contents inside it is unpacking, I don't care about the program
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12:19:33  <Terkhen> I wasn't talking about those old command line programs :P
12:19:43  <drac_boy> Terkhen well all I have to do is click download link .. close browser .. go to the game folder... and run game .. thats all
12:20:20  <CaptObvious> you set your browser's default download location to ~/.openttd/newgrf?
12:20:44  <Zuu> All I do is to open OTTDAU and pick "last nightly", "last stable" etc. and double click it and it will if necessary upgrade and then start OpenTTD. :-D
12:20:59  <planetmaker> drac_boy: the reason to replace XP is system security.
12:21:09  <CaptObvious> planetmaker - and speed, and stability
12:21:13  <CaptObvious> and game compatibility
12:21:17  <planetmaker> The reason to keep it is some legacy hardware and drivers for very special stuff
12:21:19  <CaptObvious> and the fact that XP is 12 years old
12:21:44  <planetmaker> CaptObvious: that's not an issue. windows 7 is neither faster nor really more stable, I guess
12:21:49  <CaptObvious> it's both.
12:21:58  <planetmaker> haha :-) prove it, please
12:21:58  <CaptObvious> on the same hardware, 7 is faster
12:22:06  <drac_boy> planetmaker not really... xp doesn't have any holes (only idiot users make them)
12:22:25  <drac_boy> CaptObvious no idea what browser's paths are tbh
12:22:41  <CaptObvious>,2817,2355703,00.asp
12:23:23  <CaptObvious> it's at least comparable in speed
12:23:40  <CaptObvious> and it's definitely more stable.  I've never had a bluescreen in windows 7 that I haven't caused myself
12:23:46  <CaptObvious> and I've never had an application hang the OS
12:24:10  <Terkhen> it's certainly way more stable, I'm not sure about the speed though
12:24:17  <Rubidium> yay... I'm doing something wrong or I'm not serious... ah well, who cares?
12:24:20  <drac_boy> heh only bsod I've ever seen was on crummy intel gmas with the irq_not_equal then again I usually like to avoid these such gma's in first place
12:24:26  <CaptObvious> I've had 30 day+ uptimes in windows 7 and it feels the same after that time as it did when I started it up
12:24:31  <CaptObvious> XP runs like a dog after a week or so
12:25:27  <CaptObvious> also, XP can't go above directx 9 or IE8 (not that anyone should really be using IE anyway)
12:25:54  <CaptObvious> it's time to let XP die guys.
12:26:00  <Zuu> anyway, you are derailing from the topic of using nightlies for servers :-)
12:26:11  <glx> it's impossible, you need to reboot at least once a month due to updates
12:26:21  <Rubidium> CaptObvious: if only all software that works on XP works on Windows 7
12:26:22  <drac_boy> CaptObvious only if ms would bother making an actual replacement for it
12:26:28  <CaptObvious> glx - updates get applied when I reboot for another reason
12:26:44  <CaptObvious> Rubidium - I've never had an issue with software not working on 7 that worked on XP
12:26:54  <CaptObvious> drac_boy - an actual replacement for what?
12:27:16  <drac_boy> 32/64bit os that doesn't cost a lot compared to even new hardwares
12:27:16  * Rubidium knows at least two suites of applications that don't work on Windows 7 that work on XP
12:27:28  <drac_boy> Rubidium hm interesting
12:27:30  <CaptObvious> drac_boy - windows 7 doesn't cost a lot
12:27:36  <glx> worms world party doesn't work on 7
12:28:02  <drac_boy> CaptObvious well it does...even the suggested street price says so otherwise
12:28:11  <glx> age of empire 2 has some colors problems too on 7
12:28:14  <NGC3982> <3
12:28:26  <CaptObvious> glx -
12:28:45  <drac_boy> hmm glx you remind me, I wonder if 7 even still have any of that colour/screen compactibility mode options or its not there anymore
12:28:59  <Terkhen> windows 7 does not cost a lot? are you trolling or being serious? :P
12:29:00  <Rubidium> but then I may not be a serious user since I have NT4 installed
12:29:00  <CaptObvious> drac_boy - it does
12:29:11  <drac_boy> Terkhen I am serious
12:29:14  <CaptObvious> Terkhen - I'm serious.
12:29:15  <drac_boy> its why I can't bother offering it yet
12:29:42  <CaptObvious> £100 (for professional, which you probably don't need) for software you'll use for YEARS all the time your computer is running
12:29:45  <CaptObvious> that's cheap.
12:29:53  <planetmaker> hm... I'm sure that like "BUG: unable to handle kernel NULL pointer dereference at 0000000000000000d" is not a good thing :D
12:30:01  <CaptObvious> games cost £30-40 each for maybe 20-30 hours if you're LUCKY
12:30:07  <drac_boy> planetmaker heh sounds like not so
12:30:15  <CaptObvious> planetmaker - it sounds like you broke something
12:30:27  <Terkhen> I'm not buying the hours per € argument for operative systems :)
12:30:48  <CaptObvious> why not?
12:30:52  <drac_boy> Terkhen yeah me never makes much sense..and beside different users have their own different lengths as well
12:30:58  <Rubidium> CaptObvious: the games I play are significantly cheaper per hour
12:31:05  <CaptObvious> Rubidium - but not as cheap as your OS Is
12:31:06  <CaptObvious> is*
12:31:17  * drac_boy plays a lot of < games .. including beerwares
12:31:20  <CaptObvious> plus, the vast majority of windows 7 sales are OEM, included with new hardware
12:31:25  <Zuu> CaptObvious: Don't play that game with a Linux user :-p
12:31:28  <planetmaker> CaptObvious: you certainly err in your assumptions
12:31:30  <Rubidium> CaptObvious: actually, it's equally expensive
12:31:47  <Rubidium> but I got no clue what my boss pays for running the OS on my work PC
12:31:58  <CaptObvious> nothing, it'll have come with the hardware
12:32:06  <Terkhen> that's false
12:32:10  <planetmaker> ^^
12:32:24  <CaptObvious> while I agree the hardware is slightly more expensive due to the software being bundled, it's still cheaper than buying the licence
12:32:28  <CaptObvious> Terkhen - why?
12:32:29  <Terkhen> microsoft has signed contracts with the manufacturers
12:32:36  <Terkhen> therefore the cost is still there
12:32:40  <CaptObvious> I know that
12:32:42  <planetmaker> and even cheaper when you don't buy a license
12:32:53  <CaptObvious> planetmaker - that's how I usually aquire my MS operating systems tbh
12:33:01  <CaptObvious> well, I did until I got a job
12:33:13  <frosch123> Zuu: do you also have a diff to make the "reload ai" button work for gs?
12:33:14  <CaptObvious> but since then I haven't needed to buy an OS
12:33:17  <Terkhen> for example, I bought my laptop from a small manufacturer that, of course, does not have any contract with microsoft WRT OEM inclusion
12:33:31  <Zuu> frosch123: No, I use the 'reset' command in the console
12:33:43  <planetmaker> so did I buy my desktop from a similar local shop
12:33:51  <planetmaker> so, no bundling
12:34:01  <Zuu> Or I do "save GSTest" followed by "load GSTest".
12:34:05  <CaptObvious> I build my PCs myself because I don't like paying more money than I should :P
12:34:10  <Terkhen> and I'm not buying the € per time argument because other operative systems are centainly cheaper
12:34:20  <CaptObvious> then use one that barely runs what you need it to run
12:34:30  <CaptObvious> and can take a few days of fighting to get working properly
12:34:40  <CaptObvious> I'm happy with my one that just works tyvm :P
12:34:53  <Terkhen> in this case, the only thing that can explain the extra money you need to pay for windows is that they count on most user thinking like that ^
12:34:54  <Rubidium> I'm fighting more with paid software than with software that's free
12:35:11  <CaptObvious> Terkhen - I'm a gamer, linux isn't an option for me
12:35:18  <CaptObvious> for the desktop anyway
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12:35:30  <CaptObvious> I have a linode that I use for web hosting and openttd server
12:35:30  <Terkhen> I did not mention linux :)
12:35:42  <CaptObvious> and my laptop is a mac
12:35:50  <CaptObvious> I'm very much a best tool for the job kind of person
12:35:51  <Zuu> frosch123: I don't see how we would support re-loading the GS in a game. It is probably possible technically, but at the moment its seen as part of the game and cannot be stopped/started/restarted during a running game.
12:36:06  <Terkhen> I'm just saying that if other commercial options for OSes in normal PCs existed, windows would cost a lot less
12:36:12  <CaptObvious> oh of course
12:36:18  <Terkhen> therefore, it is not "cheap"
12:36:19  <drac_boy> Terkhen and I would so love that finally ... :P
12:36:21  <CaptObvious> keep an eye on apple
12:36:30  <Wolf01> hello
12:36:31  <CaptObvious> their marketshare is growing alarmingly fast
12:36:33  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
12:36:52  <Terkhen> since I don't plan to pay double for a laptop, apple is not an option for me
12:36:56  <Rubidium> what's interesting is the amount of computers at my job I installed mingw on just so I could help people with 'problems' that are significantly faster handled by the basic unix tools
12:36:59  <CaptObvious> I love their laptops
12:37:20  <CaptObvious> I wouldn't have a mac as a desktop, but you'll have to pry my macbook pro out of my cold dead fingers
12:38:03  <CaptObvious> most of the time I run windows on it, but I love the hardware
12:38:08  * Zuu tend to help people at work too from time to time using unix tools.
12:38:41  <CaptObvious> my last job we had a few macs in the design department
12:38:48  <CaptObvious> so I enabled SSH on them
12:38:48  <Zuu> That is one of the first thing that get installed after the OS for me :-)
12:39:04  <CaptObvious> and we were doing an inventory of installed software
12:39:09  <Rubidium> the questions that someone would do in Excel or so in half a day and I with a bit of sed/grep/awk magic in half a minute, and then they use that script after that
12:39:12  <CaptObvious> so I SSHed into the macs and did an ls of /Applications
12:39:37  <CaptObvious> and my boss was like "no, I want to check what's actually on the computers, go to them and check"
12:39:39  <frosch123> Zuu: restart is fine, it just annoys me that it closes the debug gui :ÃŒp
12:39:48  <CaptObvious> and I was like "but this is..."  "NO.  go TO them and check"
12:39:51  * CaptObvious facepalm
12:39:55  <Terkhen> meh, now I want to install linux already
12:40:02  <Terkhen> I miss the commands :P
12:40:14  <Zuu> I have bound Global+ctrl+alt+D to the debug window in my hotkeys.cfg
12:40:27  <CaptObvious> so I had to go and interrupt the users while they were working to get the same file listing I was getting from my desk
12:40:39  <Zuu> Thanks to my last commit, it now shows the GS tab if there are no AIs, before you had to click with the mouse to show the GS tab.
12:41:06  <Zuu> I have considered to add a hotkey hook to the GS button in the AI debug window so that you could bind a global hotkey to that, but have not yet done that.
12:41:55  <CaptObvious> I'd like it in openttd if running costs were an actual thing rather than decoration
12:42:12  <CaptObvious> so you'd have to consider revenue vs cost before running a massive line halfway across the map
12:42:21  <CaptObvious> rather than just knowing the revenue from it will outweigh the costs
12:42:36  <Alberth> your maps are too big :p
12:42:40  <Terkhen> you can adjust the costs with a base costs NewGRF
12:43:00  <CaptObvious> Terkhen - yeah, but it's still not the way the game works
12:43:08  <CaptObvious> there's no dynamics to it
12:43:24  <CaptObvious> if you adjust the base cost you're just decreasing profit or making ALL runs unprofitable and breaking the game
12:43:40  <CaptObvious> I'd really like something like YACD to be included in trunk
12:43:58  <Terkhen> what's the difference between increasing the costs with a newgrf and increasing them inside the game?
12:44:10  <CaptObvious> Terkhen - because I wouldn't want it to be a flat increae
12:44:12  <CaptObvious> increase*
12:44:23  <CaptObvious> I'd want some dynamics there, some actual supply and demand
12:44:32  <CaptObvious> and production limits on industries.
12:44:39  <Alberth> ecs ?
12:44:44  <Terkhen> people would just add stations along the way to keep the running costs flat
12:44:46  <CaptObvious> it's not right that a factory can take as much as you can throw at it
12:45:07  <Alberth> false, there is a limit
12:45:08  * drac_boy points CaptObvious to use non-default industries and find out there is a limit then
12:45:14  <Alberth> and people reach it :p
12:45:19  <Zuu> With GS its possible to do a medium way. The economics is still the same, but the GS could set up goals that you must deliver to certain industries in order to reach the goal. Then you can deliver to others and earn money, but you won't win the game.
12:45:20  <drac_boy> :)
12:45:22  <planetmaker> it's not right that one person shall define what must be right for all other people
12:45:36  <CaptObvious> planetmaker - right, because option dialogs don't exist...oh wait.
12:46:04  <planetmaker> CaptObvious: nor NewGRFs do exist... oh wait
12:46:11  <Terkhen> ^ :P
12:46:22  <CaptObvious> newgrfs can't do the kind of overhaul I'm thinking
12:46:33  <Terkhen> they can't do YACD, the other parts are certainly possible
12:46:36  <drac_boy> need to go for a bit anyhow
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12:46:40  <CaptObvious> yeah
12:46:41  <Terkhen> and if not, then newgrfs should be expanded
12:47:00  <CaptObvious> I'm sure the intention is to expand newgrf's capabilities over time
12:47:31  <Terkhen> but as a general rule, we do not add options for stuff that can be done for newgrfs, because options are limited to a few possibilities while newgrfs are not
12:47:36  <Zuu> A GS cannot give you money, but it can take money from you (by eg. destroying water tiles), so it could punish you if you deliver to the wrong industries.
12:47:59  <CaptObvious> the option thing was in reference to YACD
12:48:07  <Zuu> There you got a semi-YACD which is possible to implement as a game script for nightlies/1.3 :-)
12:48:09  <CaptObvious> so if YACD was included in trunk, stick it as a flag in advanced options
12:48:25  <CaptObvious> much like YAPF was originally
12:48:28  <Terkhen> WRT limited industries, that has been possible in NewGRFs for many years already, try PBI for example
12:48:29  <Alberth> YACD costs too much CPU time
12:48:40  <Terkhen> YACD already had those settings implemented, the main problem was ^
12:48:54  <CaptObvious> Alberth - which is why it'd be optional and non-default
12:49:07  <CaptObvious> let people with the horsepower run it if they want to
12:49:22  <Terkhen> no, it would be optional because there would be people that do not want to plan with it
12:49:32  <Terkhen> to play*
12:49:40  <CaptObvious> this is where the "if they want to" comes in
12:49:51  <Terkhen> you would be surprised
12:50:48  <CaptObvious> I may be
12:50:50  <Alberth> CaptObvious: even without yacd they hit the CPU ceiling already
12:51:03  <CaptObvious> Alberth - some people do, yes
12:51:09  <CaptObvious> but others don't
12:51:12  <Terkhen> since OpenTTD is single core, most people do
12:51:17  <Terkhen> and more will in the future :P
12:51:44  <CaptObvious> openttd is running for me now on a 2048x2048 map
12:51:49  <CaptObvious> with about 6 newgrf
12:51:50  <CaptObvious> s
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12:52:06  <CaptObvious> on my machine it's 0-1% CPU
12:52:09  <CaptObvious> but it is a network game
12:52:17  <CaptObvious> on the server it's 10-12%
12:52:47  <Terkhen> <-- try one of the savegames of openttdcoop's public archive
12:53:12  <V453000> 219 has almost 3000 trains
12:53:18  <V453000> 201 has towns everywhere
12:53:19  <Terkhen> try that one then :P
12:53:22  <V453000> good two for testing
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12:55:02  <CaptObvious> right, lunchtime
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13:09:46  <CaptObvious> I return
13:09:47  <CaptObvious> with subway
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14:09:18  <frosch123> hmm, weren't gs able to read/change game settings?
14:10:26  <frosch123> ah, GSGameSettings
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15:28:03  <Sacro> Hmm
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15:35:36  <frosch123> damn, the amount of syntax errors i produce in squirrel is annoying
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15:44:10  <Alberth> but the language manual is not nice enough to actually read :)
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15:51:50  <frosch123> the cargo monitors were saved, right?
15:52:13  <frosch123> at least there is a cargomonitor_sl.cpp
15:52:17  <frosch123> so, i just assume so :)
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16:22:47  <Elmux> Whats about articulated and /or double-decker Busses
16:23:34  <frosch123> they are nice, aren't they?
16:29:03  <V453000> interesting question
16:30:14  <TrueBrain> I like their red colour
16:30:55  <Guest5309> and their wheels
16:30:57  <Guest5309> awesome wheels
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16:31:14  <frosch123> sounds as if you ate some
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16:31:55  <Guest5432> ffs, silly nickserv >_<
16:32:17  <TrueBrain> you my dear sir
16:32:18  <TrueBrain> are fail
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16:36:11  <Xaroth> thar
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16:47:56  <Alberth> yep, cargo monitors should be saved
16:49:46  <Alberth> but how you use that from an AI, I don't know. I guess by iterating over them :)
16:56:56  <frosch123> hmm, when does squirrel do integer or real divisons?
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17:32:54  <planetmaker> frosch123, now, I'm toying around with gnome3... to me it looks much better than all people constantly say it is
17:33:37  <frosch123> well, at least half a year ago i checked last :)
17:38:00  <Terkhen> it looks nice
17:38:04  <Terkhen> the problem is usage :P
17:38:45  <frosch123> planetmaker: do you already have an environment to compile ottd
17:39:13  <planetmaker> not yet
17:39:15  <frosch123> when i checked last the default package manager was so crappy, that it searched only descriptions and not package names
17:39:36  <frosch123> i failed to find a searchname to make "gcc" show up
17:40:19  <planetmaker> but let's see...
17:40:21  <frosch123> (well, the first thing was at least my explanation for the behaviour)
17:40:43  <planetmaker> I've spend the last hours trying to get sound going... without avail. and #debian-next seems to have currently only idlers but no help
17:41:35  <frosch123> no idea, sound worked out of the box for me
17:42:14  <frosch123> only the dual screen setup with 3d acceleration was a bit tricky
17:42:40  <NGC3982> Sound should not really be an issue with normal Debian distributions.
17:42:48  <NGC3982> planetmaker: What hardware are we talking about?
17:44:05  <planetmaker> frosch123, well, the dual screen now works... dual was not an issue. But nvidia in itself
17:44:22  <frosch123> well, yeah, that's what i meant :)
17:44:31  <planetmaker> NGC3982
17:44:55  <planetmaker> which currently looks running like
17:45:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24509 /trunk/src/lang/ (german.txt korean.txt):
17:45:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by NG
17:45:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 5 changes by telk5093
17:57:47  <Rubidium> planetmaker: but then the computer name just smells
18:00:33  <Rubidium> what happens if you trash pulse?
18:01:38  <planetmaker> thought about that... I guess doesn't hurt to try :D
18:01:39  <frosch123> hmm, do {STRING} parameters work in goal texts?
18:01:47  <planetmaker> but now openttd at least compiles :-)
18:02:17  <planetmaker> needed a mere 250MByte deps installed ... (but including boost for grfcodec)
18:03:21  <Rubidium> boost and icu are huge
18:03:26  <Rubidium> an gcc isn't tiny either
18:03:37  <planetmaker> gcc was already installed
18:05:00  <Rubidium> good ;)
18:05:43  <Rubidium> my gcc 4.8 is even 300+ MiB
18:05:56  <planetmaker> this comes with 4.7.1
18:06:45  <Rubidium> got 4.7 as well
18:07:26  <planetmaker> I'd be surprised if you hadn't :-)
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18:16:19  <frosch123> hmm, if i wouldn't be testing my gs, i would feel totally noobish to play a game and cheating in such a way :p
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18:16:44  <Alberth> :)
18:16:48  <Alberth> hi andy
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18:37:32  <andythenorth> lo
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18:38:26  <andythenorth> what did I miss?
18:38:32  <andythenorth> there are > 500 lines of log today :P
18:39:34  <Terkhen> irc conversations, I guess
18:39:40  <Terkhen> most of them offtopic
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18:41:44  <andythenorth> Terkhen: so...why are industries hard for new scenario format (list?)
18:42:27  <Terkhen> because it is hard to decide on a NewGRF and climate agnostic way to define their type and positions
18:42:28  <Terkhen> bbl
18:50:12  <frosch123> hmm, i need more debug output
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20:07:37  <drac_boy> hi
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20:31:54  <Wolf01> 'night all
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20:51:09  <Terkhen> good night
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21:11:02  <Warod> w 46
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21:20:38  <NGC3982> Err.
21:20:41  <NGC3982> What just happend
21:21:04  <NGC3982>
21:21:06  <NGC3982> That looks broken.
21:22:09  <NGC3982>
21:22:14  <NGC3982> Holy smokes.
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21:33:04  <Eddi|zuHause> you have a newgrf error
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21:33:54  <Eddi|zuHause> but since you don't use the builtin screenshot methods, you deny us the set of used newgrfs
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21:50:08  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: I was to solve it properly, until i realized that the error was only visible while looking at graphics trough a VNC server.
21:50:21  <NGC3982> Wich i for some reason forgot i used.
21:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> why would that make it less of an issue?
21:53:05  <NGC3982> The problem was non-OpenTTD related.
21:53:13  <NGC3982> And solved by simply stop using a VNC server.
21:54:03  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: a workaround isn't a solution
21:54:18  <NGC3982> Im not using the VNC server for actual gameplay
21:54:26  <Fawksie> Jesus wept
22:00:56  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that was not the point
22:01:21  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: the point was that there is an error, and instead of investigating the reason you're doctoring the symptoms
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22:21:48  <andythenorth> wtf?
22:21:54  <andythenorth> why am I not asleep?
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22:52:16  *** Netsplit <-> quits: SpComb^, @planetmaker, Warod, guru3, Strid, CIA-1, Born_Acorn, yorick, neli, Noldo,  (+5 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
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22:52:54  *** Netsplit over, joins: CIA-1, Hirundo, Strid, luckz, neli, Kjetil, guru3, Noldo, SpComb^, Pulec (+5 more)
22:53:55  *** mode/#openttd [+v peter1138] by ChanServ
22:53:55  *** mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
22:53:55  *** mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
22:53:55  *** mode/#openttd [+v Yexo] by ChanServ
22:53:58  *** mode/#openttd [+v Terkhen] by ChanServ
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