Log for #openttd on 7th September 2012:
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05:58:25  <Terkhen> good morning
05:58:37  <Supercheese> salve
05:59:03  <planetmaker> good morning
06:08:11  <NGC3982> Morning.
06:08:16  <NGC3982> A quick question
06:08:31  <NGC3982> "das KÃŒken" means "chicken" in german?
06:08:53  <planetmaker> a "kÃŒken" is a chicken baby
06:08:58  <Supercheese> a chick, then
06:09:19  <NGC3982> Oh.
06:09:25  <planetmaker> or generally a baby bird
06:09:38  <planetmaker> more or less freshly hatched
06:09:43  <NGC3982> It's a very, very (very) bad word in swedish.
06:09:58  <planetmaker> "KÃŒken"?
06:10:10  <planetmaker> I didn't know that the Swedes had the letter Ì
06:10:36  <NGC3982> It's just "u", but the pronounciation is exactly the same.
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06:11:09  <Supercheese> Exactly the same? When dealing with umlauts, that seems doubtful
06:11:12  <Supercheese> but perhaps
06:12:12  <planetmaker> my dictionary doesn't know that as swedish word
06:12:14  <NGC3982> And it's not related to baby birds, as much as male genitalia.
06:12:36  <NGC3982> Markk: Doesn't "kuk" exist as a SAOL word in swedish?
06:13:14  <Markk> NGC3982: No idea mate.
06:13:17  <__ln__> Supercheese: swedes pronounce their 'u' very close to like 'Ì'.
06:13:25  <NGC3982> It's vulgar slang.
06:13:31  <NGC3982> According to the intarwebz.
06:13:38  <Markk> __ln__: Not always.
06:14:05  <Markk> __ln__: We have two ways of pronounce "u".
06:14:55  <Supercheese> Hah, only two ways to pronounce vowels? In English there's almost dozens per vowel :P
06:15:06  <planetmaker> this should give the German translation in the right column
06:15:20  <Markk> Supercheese: Depends on which wowel.
06:15:25  <Supercheese> Yep, chick
06:15:31  <Markk> vowel*
06:15:32  <Markk> Even
06:15:37  <planetmaker> you can try to click several times... obviously there's different speakers... which pronounce it of course slightly different :-)
06:16:24  <planetmaker> I prefer the one with the long vowel
06:16:24  <Markk> __ln__: But in the word "kuk" it's not pronounced like "Ì" or "y".
06:16:34  <NGC3982> planetmaker: When listening to the example file: If presented to a swede, he would definitely hear the vulgar slang for male penis.
06:16:38  <NGC3982> +the.
06:17:07  <planetmaker> same stem as the English one, obviously
06:17:26  <planetmaker> and my point of contact at industry is... Ellen DeCock
06:17:34  <NGC3982> Harr.
06:17:35  <planetmaker> what a name. But she isn't Swedish nor English
06:17:43  <__ln__> NGC3982: male .... there's a female one too??
06:17:46  <Supercheese> For the longest time, a cock was merely a rooster
06:17:51  <planetmaker> yup
06:17:57  <Supercheese> and then modern slang came in and messed the language up
06:18:01  <NGC3982> __ln__: Of course. Have you never met the swedish mee-male?
06:18:14  <__ln__> i hope not
06:18:14  <planetmaker> that's how language always worked and will work, Supercheese  ;-)
06:18:23  <Supercheese> Alas
06:18:35  <NGC3982> I like that.
06:18:41  * Supercheese wonders what Esperanto slang is like
06:18:51  <Supercheese> what with it being a highly engineered language
06:19:09  <NGC3982> I do enjoy the poeticism of the older swedish language, but new slang is just ..better.
06:19:54  <planetmaker> Es ist mir ein PlÀsir, mich einer elaborierten deutschen Sprache zu befleißigen ;-)
06:20:13  <planetmaker> I guess I like the older style :D
06:20:21  <planetmaker> in German
06:20:46  <NGC3982> I wish i had any idea of how that would look like.
06:20:52  <planetmaker> what?
06:21:10  <NGC3982> Yes, i wish i knew more german, and more about the german language.
06:21:39  <Markk> I now some phrases in German.
06:21:47  <NGC3982> +k
06:21:51  <Supercheese> Does German have some interesting rules about capitalizing nouns? I've been meaning to learn more about the language and have been wondering
06:22:01  <Markk> And I met a German girl the other day, and she asked what I could say in German.
06:22:09  <planetmaker> well, the sentence I just wrote... it definitely is not ordinary language style. It contains at least three words which are meanwhile nearly extinct in spoken language
06:22:25  <NGC3982> PM: I see. "PlÀsir"?
06:22:28  <Supercheese> it seems that not only proper nouns end up capitalized
06:22:39  <planetmaker> NGC3982, basically same as pleasure or joy :-)
06:22:39  <NGC3982> It's ..hanebÃŒchen?
06:22:43  <NGC3982> Ah, i see.
06:22:43  <Markk> "Ich hÀtte lust mit großen tieren"
06:22:53  <NGC3982> I named a local server at work "Schadenfreude".
06:22:54  <Markk> She just laughed. :)
06:22:57  <NGC3982> Markk: :D
06:22:58  <planetmaker> plaisire :-)
06:23:37  <planetmaker> most I like the verb "sich befleißigen" :-D. Which roughly translates to "make use of"
06:23:43  <NGC3982> I see.
06:23:48  <NGC3982> Muckefucke.
06:24:07  <NGC3982> I had some german coffe with that name.
06:24:21  <planetmaker> NGC3982, Muckefuck is not real coffee. It's coffee substitute
06:24:26  <planetmaker> It's a difference ;-)
06:25:00  <NGC3982> Ah, like Nëscafé, i guess.
06:25:23  <planetmaker> kinda
06:25:49  <Supercheese> or Folgers?
06:25:51  <planetmaker> but not really coffee. Which at least is even in Nescafe
06:25:58  <planetmaker> it's malt coffee
06:26:28  <planetmaker>
06:26:29  <NGC3982> Oh.
06:26:42  <NGC3982> That doesn't actually sound that nice.
06:26:54  <planetmaker>
06:27:09  <planetmaker> it does. But it's not a brand but a name for a poor thing really ;-)
06:27:17  <NGC3982> Speaking of german, and germans
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06:27:33  <NGC3982> I have noticed something odd about communicating with german companies.
06:28:54  <planetmaker> even odd numbers are only prime when larger than the only truely odd prime ;-)
06:28:58  <NGC3982> In swede, while e-mailing everyone from salesmen to company owners, i notice that the effort put in spelling and correct capitalization decreases with rank or company relevance.
06:29:42  <NGC3982> The CEO doesn't even use personal greetings, and often emphazises the agenda with "!!?(&(?(".
06:30:02  <NGC3982> But after working with germans for some time now, i notice the exact opposite.
06:31:00  <planetmaker> it's a bit a sign of carelessness to be sloppy there, isn't it? It also doesn't help clarity of communication to allow slander there when you try to tell people stuff
06:31:18  <NGC3982> Exactly.
06:31:56  <NGC3982> For my part, i try to use the language as correctly as possible, who-ever i write too.
06:31:59  <NGC3982> At least in e-mails
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06:32:46  <__ln__> NGC3982: *whomever
06:32:54  <NGC3982> And yes, in my point of view: Doing e-mails like that is careless in both german and swedish.
06:32:57  <NGC3982> __ln__: Thank you.
06:33:11  <NGC3982> The problem for me is still the english though, as you can see.
06:33:18  <NGC3982> But that's more forgiving, i guess.
06:34:50  <Supercheese> If you measure your English against the average American's, then yes, it is very forgiving indeed ;)
06:35:32  <Supercheese> I am dismayed at the state of the language in this country
06:38:30  <NGC3982> Well, i notice that the germans and me have somewhat equal language skills
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06:39:01  <NGC3982> Although, i speak more german than they speak english!
06:39:02  <NGC3982> :P
06:39:05  <NGC3982> Oh
06:39:10  * NGC3982 erases
06:39:14  <NGC3982> Although, i speak more german than they speak swedish!
06:39:18  <NGC3982> :P
06:44:51  <__ln__> but
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06:47:47  <NGC3982> Oh, crap.
06:48:04  * NGC3982 prepare references to Midland cars from the sixties.
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06:58:35  <Terkhen> mine's from china then, I guess
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11:31:46  <ZxBiohazardZx> heya
11:31:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> is there a download location for "older" stables ?
11:32:01  <ZxBiohazardZx> im creating a scenario atm
11:32:15  <ZxBiohazardZx> and if i use the Chrill Patchpack then the 1.x.x stable users wont be able to join it
11:32:23  <ZxBiohazardZx> but if i make it on 1.2.0 then the CPP isnt accepting it
11:32:53  <ZxBiohazardZx> so is there a download for lets say 1.0.0 or 0.x.x to make scenario's (or a way to port my cpp-data into 1.x.x stable?)
11:33:05  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka how did .scn data change apart from version?
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11:35:09  <ZxBiohazardZx> ohi valhallasw
11:37:47  <lugo> ZxBiohazardZx:
11:37:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> has older versions?
11:37:58  <ZxBiohazardZx> thx
11:38:04  <lugo> und releases yes
11:38:07  <lugo> *under
11:38:13  <ZxBiohazardZx> ok thanks
11:38:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> that still leaves me with the question of "would it be portable to back-port" an existing scenario/map to older/newer version by hacking its data somewhere?
11:38:58  <ZxBiohazardZx> or did .scn format change so insanely much that cross-porting over the versions truely is impossible?
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15:26:46  <Belugas> hello
15:32:05  <Rubidium> bonjour Belugas
15:33:33  <Belugas> salut Rubidium :)  thanks, you always bring me back to nice memories doing so ;)
15:37:10  <Alberth> hi sir B
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16:23:55  <planetmaker> good evening
16:24:20  <planetmaker> hm, was there an issue that not all music sets from all TTD versions are understood by openttd?
16:28:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it can't read TTD DOS music
16:29:17  <planetmaker> I feared so
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16:33:37  <frosch123> evening everyone :)
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16:55:25  <planetmaker> hi Frankr :-)
16:56:17  <Knogle> hi :)
16:59:55  <planetmaker> hi Knogle
17:00:08  <planetmaker> and I meant to quak... instead of random highlights
17:00:43  <frosch123> hi pugi :)
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17:11:21  <Frankr> hey planetmaker :)
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17:15:56  <pugi> hello frosch123
17:16:05  <pugi> :D
17:16:43  <frosch123> wow, both pm an me did not hit idlers :)
17:17:21  <pugi> i was downstairs eating dinner when you highlighted me
17:17:37  <pugi> so i have an excuse :D
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17:39:49  <Yexo> good evening
17:40:56  <Knogle> Hm, can GSGameSettings::SetValue make/save changes to openttd.cfg while a game is running?
17:41:31  <Yexo> why not?
17:42:26  <Knogle> because if you manually make changes in openttd.cfg while a game is running, it'll be changed back, afaik.
17:42:38  <Yexo> oh, to openttd.cfg
17:42:42  <Yexo> no, they can't change that at all
17:42:49  <Knogle> ok
17:42:52  <Yexo> a gamescript can only change the config for the currently running game
17:43:05  <Yexo> openttd.cfg is only for new games
17:43:13  <Knogle> gotcha
17:43:17  <Knogle> :)
17:43:23  <Yexo> there are some exceptions, some settings are GUI only
17:43:35  <Yexo> if you'd change one of those via a GS the change would be saved in openttd.cfg
17:45:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24512 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt luxembourgish.txt):
17:45:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 26 changes by Eskymak
17:45:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 7 changes by Phreeze
17:47:47  <Sacro> \o/
17:55:16  <Zuu> Though, in most cases it would be a good practice to not change GUI settings in a GS as IMHO, GUI settings should be up to the players to decide upon.
17:55:38  <frosch123> except for the tutorial :)
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17:56:34  <Zuu> Even the tutorial acts upon what GUI settings that players choose rather than editing them.
17:57:19  <frosch123> gs virus: mess up all the settings :)
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17:58:44  <planetmaker> :D
17:58:56  <planetmaker> evil frosch123, evil you! ;-)
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18:01:47  <Eddi|zuHause> "this gamescript forbids you to make trees transparent"
18:01:55  <planetmaker> :D
18:02:09  <planetmaker> "this game script enforces TTD feeling" ;-)
18:02:48  <Eddi|zuHause> we can't have that, as some settings were removed :)
18:03:02  <planetmaker> :-) yeah
18:04:12  <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of TTD, anyone tried recreating the original german town name generator? whenever i load old TT(O/D) games, all the names are screwed up
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18:10:13  <Knogle> Zuu: That's not what I wanted to changed though - I was wondering if I could set a random landscape or a random starting year for next game :)
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18:31:35  <Yexo> Knogle: you might be able to, but no guarantee: change the landscape/start year for the current game, then use "restart" instead of "newgame"
18:34:00  <Knogle> worth a try
18:34:13  <Knogle> I have my doubts though.
18:34:52  <frosch123> if that works, then it is like the old climate cheat
18:35:05  <frosch123> so, quickly start a new game before it breaks the old one :)
18:35:50  <Yexo> "if it works, we'll fix it so it no longer works on 1.3" :p
18:36:37  <Yexo> it works from the console
18:36:45  <Yexo> so very likely also from a GS
18:36:51  <Yexo> a GS is not really the right place to change such things though
18:37:22  <Yexo> Knogle: how do you start a new game? Afaik a GS can't do that
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18:40:35  <andythenorth> bonsoirre
18:42:22  <Rubidium> salut monsieur lenord
18:43:07  <Knogle> Yexo: don't think it can, no.. I was gonna do that manually to see.
18:43:28  <Yexo> so why change the settings via GS?
18:43:33  <Knogle> anyway, it won't let me change the landspace using GSGameSettings::SetValue
18:43:39  <Yexo> if you do that manually to you can change the newgame settings
18:43:54  <Knogle> true
18:44:43  <Knogle> but with GS, it could be changed to a random landscape, then use 'restart'
18:45:17  <frosch123> how would you trigger the gS?
18:45:33  <frosch123> you would have to plant a sign or something complicated
18:45:46  <Yexo> Knogle: you're using the wrong tool for the job
18:45:59  <Knogle> I know I am, I just wanted to test it :P
18:46:02  <planetmaker> frosch123, if you have an "eternal server" the script could modify settings, then admin port restarts after game end
18:46:04  <Yexo> making a small program that uses the admin port, or even a wrapper around the console are better ways
18:46:15  <Knogle> and planetmaker has a point
18:46:22  <frosch123> planetmaker: can admin port change settings?
18:46:23  <planetmaker> but doing that all by admin port is the much better choice
18:46:29  <Yexo> but if you use the admin port to restart, why not use it to change the settings?
18:46:34  <planetmaker> frosch123, I hope it can change newgame settings :-)
18:46:39  <planetmaker> but I'm not sure
18:46:49  <planetmaker> but I'll be surprised, if it cannot
18:46:54  <Yexo> can't it send all rcon commands?
18:46:57  <planetmaker> after all it was designed to ^
18:47:06  <frosch123> and yes, the setting is like the cheat
18:47:14  <frosch123> it's is snowing in temperate :)
18:47:45  <Knogle> GSGameSettings::SetValue expects integer as value
18:47:56  <frosch123> yes
18:47:59  <Knogle> so it can't set to "temperate"
18:48:02  <frosch123> temperate is 0
18:48:05  <Knogle> ah
18:48:06  <frosch123> same as via the console
18:48:14  <Knogle> thanks
18:48:18  <frosch123> "setting game_creation.landscape 1"
18:48:19  <planetmaker> console also doesn't accept text ;-)
18:48:26  <Knogle> didn't know that
18:48:30  <Knogle> learning every day :P
18:48:45  <planetmaker> Knogle, look at your openttd.cfg
18:48:53  <Knogle> thats what I did
18:48:56  <planetmaker> there it gives you the accepted data type for each setting ;-)
18:49:06  <Knogle> its set to "landscape = temperate"
18:49:08  <Knogle> :P
18:49:11  <Knogle> not 0
18:49:13  <planetmaker> hm, interesting :D
18:49:15  <frosch123> "listsettings" console command is more useful
18:49:25  <frosch123> esp. because it greps :)
18:49:26  <Knogle>
18:49:37  <Knogle> :P
18:50:30  <andythenorth> Yexo / planetmaker would you help me modify FIRS supplies mechanic for test purposes?
18:50:52  <Yexo> sure, modify it to do what exactly?
18:50:54  <Knogle> GSGameSettings.SetValue("landscape",0); and restart didn't work though.
18:50:59  <andythenorth> I'll paste
18:51:45  <Knogle> and I know there's better ways to do, and it's not really important to do so, I just wondered if you could make a script that does exactly that ;)
18:51:51  <Knogle> to do it*
18:52:43  <andythenorth> Yexo:
18:53:18  <frosch123> Knogle: use the console to get the real setting name
18:53:27  <frosch123> the setting name is not "landscape"
18:53:37  <Knogle> hrm
18:53:37  <andythenorth> I should really be able to figure this out myself - but no sleep :P
18:54:04  <Knogle> GSGameSettings.IsValid("landscape") returns true :P
18:55:16  <andythenorth> industry production multiplier is 16 by default (just checked)
18:55:48  <andythenorth> however I use cb15F to vary it
18:55:54  <andythenorth> which is a bit more complicated
18:56:17  <frosch123> Knogle: oh, apparently the shortened name also works :o
18:56:18  <Yexo> Knogle: are you testing in SP or MP?
18:56:32  <Yexo> the "landscape" setting can only be changed in single-player modus
18:56:45  <planetmaker> sounds fun, andythenorth. I'll do a quick shopping stop for some breakfast stuff, then I'm back on that
18:57:07  <andythenorth> planetmaker Yexo thanks :)
18:57:09  <andythenorth> appreciated
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18:57:29  <andythenorth> I meanwhile am writing a python script to calculate how much sleep I had recently
18:57:33  <andythenorth> [not]
18:58:19  <planetmaker> but also sounds like ECS-like production changes ;-)
18:58:32  <frosch123> what's worse? having no sleep, or having enough sleep and still being tired?
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18:58:43  <planetmaker> frosch123, the latter
18:58:48  <Yexo> the latter indeed
18:58:56  <Yexo> having no sleep is easy to fix ;)
18:59:03  <Knogle> what they said ;)
18:59:07  <Yexo> in theory at least
19:00:51  <andythenorth> planetmaker: it might be a bit more ECS like
19:00:55  <andythenorth> I think it might be simpler too
19:01:00  <andythenorth> testing will show :)
19:01:21  <andythenorth> it's a straight copy of how it works in Railroad Tycoon (if my memory is correct) :P
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19:01:48  <Wolf01> evening
19:03:20  <Knogle> Yexo: Sorry, missed your question.. I was testing in SP.
19:06:48  <Alberth> evenink Wolf01
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19:13:44  <__ln__> oh, a star trek thing on google's front page.
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19:18:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i must be a really bad trekky if i only recognize 4 out of 6 people
19:18:55  <Yexo> there are 2 more hidden behind the door
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19:19:35  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i suppose you need javascript for that
19:19:46  <Yexo> guess so
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19:22:08  <Zuu> Implementing a Goal::UpdateGoal, I assume it is not needed to be able to update the company ID or goal destination. Only text and the new "progress" field that I'm adding.
19:23:30  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe, tribbles :)
19:25:25  <frosch123> Zuu: yeah, for changing company you can as well delete and create
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19:42:56  <frosch123> night
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20:20:49  <Zuu> Should *all* script preconditions be enforced, even if it means that you must find thte goal struct from the pool and check a value that the CMD function will check without a unneeded pool lookup?
20:22:20  <andythenorth> hmm
20:22:24  * andythenorth needs to install ply
20:22:42  <andythenorth> that is remarkably hard
20:27:08  <andythenorth> if setuptools is broken
20:27:18  <andythenorth> why does setuptools break so much :P
20:31:25  <Eddi|zuHause> use an os with a sane package manager
20:33:50  <andythenorth> ah
20:33:52  <andythenorth> good point
20:34:20  * andythenorth considers starting a Windows Vista VM for this
20:34:40  <andythenorth> the node.js package manager is pretty good
20:34:46  <andythenorth> maybe python should switch to it :P
20:35:56  <andythenorth> hmm
20:35:58  <andythenorth> fixed ply
20:36:03  <andythenorth> now for PIL :P
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20:43:36  <Terkhen> vista? why vista?
20:44:53  <andythenorth> funniest option I could think of
20:44:55  <andythenorth> I don't have ME :P
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20:54:14  <FLHerne> andythenorth: What's wrong with OS7? :P (other than minor program bugs causing hard crashes ;-) )
20:54:31  <andythenorth> does it run in a VM on intel? :P
20:54:32  <andythenorth> thought not :P
20:55:25  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I believe there's an m68k emulator out there somewhere :-)
20:56:56  <FLHerne> Yup, found it:
20:57:25  <FLHerne> The other option is to keep a stack of m68k and PPC laptops in a cupboard, of course :D
21:00:21  <andythenorth> let me know when you've compiled nmlc for PPC
21:00:29  <andythenorth> it should work, if you can get python running
21:01:45  <Eddi|zuHause> you need 2GB-ish of RAM to compile CETS
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21:04:12  <FLHerne> That sounds fun. Perhaps when I get my PBG4 working again... :-)
21:04:33  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i should port the whole thing to NFO
21:04:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean i already do loads of processing outside NML anyway
21:06:38  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: nml takes that much memory?
21:06:57  <Zuu> Started to code on goal window improvements:
21:06:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: yes, i presume just building up the syntax tree
21:07:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: it also spends most of the time in PLY code
21:07:35  <Yexo> I'll see what I can do about that
21:08:04  <Eddi|zuHause> (that is, after i took out all the template calculations)
21:14:11  <Terkhen> Zuu: nice :O
21:15:07  <Zuu> Its maybe a bit rough on the edges so far as I just started with it a few hours ago.
21:15:18  <Zuu> For example I just use 40 pixels for the progress column.
21:15:36  <Zuu> Which for sure will fail if the font is too large.
21:19:15  <Zuu> Hmm, do we actually have any window that show tabular text that support font sizes?
21:19:34  <Zuu> Eg. both town and industry list cheat by not showing data in real columns.
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21:21:04  <Zuu> Hmm, the economy window uses columns and at least the first one could in theory be very wide if a wide language + font is used.
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21:25:50  <Yexo> good night
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21:26:14  <Zuu> night Yexo
21:28:56  <planetmaker> Zuu, I don't we exactly have that. To a degree the depot views are a gridded window
21:29:08  <planetmaker> but it's by all means not text only :-)
21:29:18  <planetmaker> and sizes there iirc are defined rather by sprite sizes
21:30:00  <Zuu> I figured out that the infrastructure respect the string length for its first column. And it being not too complicated gives some help on how to do it.
21:30:34  <Zuu> Basically, you have to override a Window member and there test-render all strings to get the width of them to compute the column withs.
21:31:03  <Zuu> s/withs/widths/
21:31:38  <Zuu> Something I think that I will save for another day.
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21:48:21  <Terkhen> good night
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22:28:47  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:42:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: i've read code like that in the timetable window patches, back when i tried to move it to the new window system
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22:47:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: should be not much more than "foreach (entry) { width max= GetStringWidth(entry); } widget->width = width;"
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