Log for #openttd on 17th September 2012:
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00:18:33  <Simonn>
00:18:36  <Simonn> man too many airport
00:18:44  <Supercheese> hah
00:18:45  <Supercheese> yeah
00:20:45  <Simonn> I only got like 40 planes
00:20:48  <Simonn> and they need 4 airports for that
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00:23:51  <Supercheese> depends on how far apart your destinations are and how fast the planes are
00:24:31  <Simonn> not very far
00:24:35  <Simonn> some are like 40 tiles away
00:24:40  <Supercheese> there's yer problem
00:24:42  <Simonn> more like 30
00:24:46  <Supercheese> pick farther spots
00:24:55  <Supercheese> more money for longer distance
00:25:01  <Simonn> I know bt I want development too
00:25:04  <Simonn> I'm developing a big cluster
00:26:20  <Simonn> Supercheese
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00:27:00  <Simonn> som airports are close together ther
00:27:23  <BtbN> do you transfer people there, or are they linked to some stations inside?
00:27:54  <Simonn> I have one airport that's linked to about 20 railroad tracks or something and a lot of trams/buses
00:28:02  <Simonn> and then the other 3 airports recieve transfers from that airport
00:28:13  <Simonn> by a train
00:28:47  <BtbN> i have a city in which i reserved the space for one of the big airports
00:28:56  <BtbN> and i'll let it grow for 50 years
00:29:03  <BtbN> so the airport will be surronded by buildings
00:29:26  <Simonn> yeah most of my airports are surrounded by buildings too after a while
00:29:32  <Simonn> but I bought surrounding land
00:29:36  <Simonn> because I might need more space in the future
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00:29:57  <Simonn> I'm linking in more towns to the hub now and I think I might need another 30-40 railroad tracks
00:30:13  <Simonn> so reserving some space for that
00:30:37  <BtbN> btw., is it only me or is transporting people the only realy protiable busines? Doing stuff for factories does not seem to grow that much
00:31:15  <BtbN> it's nice for some money in the beginning, but later it's just not enough
00:31:25  <Simonn> coal
00:31:28  <Simonn> I always found profitable
00:31:32  <Simonn> but in that game I only do passengers
00:31:51  <Simonn> & mail
00:33:41  <Supercheese> depends on the industry set
00:33:52  <Supercheese> express, long-distance mail trains really do haul in cash though
00:34:05  <BtbN> i always build a realy big network of double-rails, one for each direction, and try to connect all citys i come along
00:34:15  <Supercheese> same
00:34:30  <BtbN> and then start putting trains on it, to see how much it can handle
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01:00:31  <Eddi|zuHause> passemgers are so insanely profitable, because there are so many of them
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01:02:54  <BtbN> industries should grow/produce more if you transport for them for a longer time
01:03:19  <BtbN> and not sometimes just close, making an entire transport system useless
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03:54:17  <Supercheese> I now have a new newgame strategy: pick largest city and build subway network :D
03:55:20  <Supercheese> can't buy too make consists, though, as 4-car consists are ~,000
03:55:24  <Supercheese> too many*
04:03:58  <BtbN> subway?
04:04:14  <Supercheese>
04:05:51  <BtbN> seems like a normal road vehicle just with a shadow texture?
04:05:56  <Supercheese> exactly
04:06:26  <Supercheese> Currently the best ('cause it's the only :P ) implementation of subways in OTTD
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06:01:59  <NataS> pppht
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06:11:26  <telanus> MÃŽre
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06:23:21  <Terkhen> good morning
06:25:24  <__ln__> ···· ·· - · ·-· -·- ···· · -·
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06:59:25  <planetmaker> moin
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07:14:23  <NGC3982> Morning.
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07:47:11  <peter1138> Indeed it is.
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08:59:07  * planetmaker ponders to charge 100€ for saying "use manual industries grf":
09:00:55  <NGC3982> Hah.
09:06:27  <NGC3982> Supercheese: "Subways cannot pass under other surface road vehicles, and can be blocked by them if they are traveling too slowly or are stopped."
09:06:33  <NGC3982> Supercheese: Is there anyway to solve that, at all?
09:07:15  <NGC3982> Afaik, i read something on the forums about that some time ago, "not being fixable".
09:10:33  <__ln__> the only way to overcome such would be to fork OpenTTD
09:12:23  <NGC3982> Ouch.
09:12:49  <NGC3982> But
09:12:57  <NGC3982> There should be some way to work around it, i guess
09:13:09  <NGC3982> Aircraft and trains can travel ontop of each other, for instance.
09:13:36  <NGC3982> Creating the illusion of something being under something else shouldn't be impossible.
09:13:45  <planetmaker> of course you can change everything. But getting true subways into the game is really a major undertaking
09:13:47  <NGC3982> Might be a bastard to create, though.
09:13:56  <NGC3982> Yeah, i guess so.
09:14:03  <NGC3982> It would be a really nice thing though.
09:14:07  * NGC3982 should look into it.
09:14:09  <planetmaker> first of all you need to enable a 3D map array
09:14:35  <NGC3982> Do you need a 3D map array for aircraft?
09:14:58  <NGC3982> I have no idea how the game core works, so im a bit fuddled on how the aircraft uses the arbitrary "height".
09:17:17  <__ln__> NGC3982: Backward compatibility, i.e. the ability to load any old game is the highest priority for OpenTTD... And as long as it is, the map array can't be redesigned to enable nice new features.
09:17:46  <NGC3982> I see.
09:19:02  <__ln__> There has been talk about redesigning the array since 2004... And since it hasn't happened in the past 8 years, I don't suppose it will happen in the next 8 years either.
09:19:19  <NGC3982> I guess it's too much work for a small reward.
09:25:36  <peter1138> it's been done once
09:25:50  <peter1138> it all falters at performance and memory consumption
09:40:43  <NGC3982> I see.
09:41:11  <NGC3982> Though, im looking for a industry tile grf with loading animation
09:41:18  <NGC3982> or at least tiles that show the load
09:41:32  <NGC3982> like CHIPS, but for the standard industry set.
09:48:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i know of two very recent restructuring attempts to allow more flexible tile compositions
09:49:11  <Eddi|zuHause> one had major performance issues (and little developer time to resolve them) and the other was quite less flexible
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09:50:38  <fjb> Moin.
09:52:15  <Eddi|zuHause> quak
09:52:18  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, wait...
09:53:23  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: I see.
09:59:19  <fjb> :)
10:08:36  <planetmaker> <__ln__> NGC3982: Backward compatibility, i.e. the ability to load any old game is the highest priority for OpenTTD... And as long as it is, the map array can't be redesigned to enable nice new features. <-- that's not true. Adding some code to load old maps is not the issue. The issue is performance really
10:12:47  <NGC3982> What kind of performance increase are we talking about? Simply having too much vehicles and graphics, or too much code?
10:13:27  <peter1138> wouldn't be a problem if it was a performance increase :p
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10:16:22  <__ln__> what would Darkvater say?
10:18:09  <NGC3982> Well, yeah, that sounds logical. :P
10:18:55  <peter1138> Donnu
10:19:01  <__ln__> @seen Darkvater
10:19:01  <DorpsGek> __ln__: Darkvater was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 22 weeks, 1 day, 22 hours, 40 minutes, and 58 seconds ago: <Darkvater> good ol' days :)
10:19:56  <planetmaker> <-- newmaparray
10:20:36  <NGC3982> That might be the best suited last-said sentance ever.
10:24:17  <__ln__> *sentence
10:28:11  <NGC3982> Oh, i should know that one.
10:31:01  <NGC3982>
10:31:06  <NGC3982> *
10:31:12  <NGC3982> By the way, can you see what is wrong here?
10:31:31  <NGC3982> The error sign tells me i can't set the left station as an order.
10:31:42  <NGC3982> Oh wait
10:31:56  <NGC3982> Never mind.
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10:33:53  <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot go to terminal stops with articulated vehicles
10:34:50  <Eddi|zuHause> also that is "right", not "left"
10:35:28  <NGC3982> Nothing is going my way today.
10:44:35  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- my chinese is a little weak, but i think this means "don't drink and walk on the tracks", or something :p
10:51:26  <NGC3982> Hehe
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11:19:20  <Simonn> hello
11:19:31  <Simonn> is there any mod so that you can add more "layers" to the world?
11:19:33  <Simonn> Like dig under sea level?
11:19:46  <Simonn> I'm having a tunnel problem
11:20:06  <__ln__> impossible
11:20:15  <Simonn> :(
11:20:45  <Simonn> are you certain?
11:20:54  <Simonn> I mean people dig under sea level all the time
11:21:25  <__ln__> of course i'm not certain, i'm just expressing my guesses and opinions as absolute truths.
11:21:31  <planetmaker> the game doesn't implement height levels below sea level
11:21:45  <__ln__> Simonn: which people?
11:21:45  <planetmaker> there's somewhere a patch out there. But it's quite a hack
11:22:16  <Simonn> sooooo..... you don't recommend the patch?
11:22:20  <Simonn> You know... the subway people
11:22:23  <planetmaker> Sea can be either bridged. Or use ships to transport stuff over water tiles. Or terraform loads to build rails nevertheless
11:22:49  <planetmaker> I recommend unmodified openttd. At least in this respect ;-)
11:23:21  <Simonn> yeah but I have some tunnels under my city going north-south
11:23:26  <Simonn> and I want to add more tunnels under the city east-west
11:23:30  <Simonn> so I thought add these at -2
11:23:34  <Simonn> and the other tunnels -1
11:23:38  <Simonn> but not possibruuu :(?
11:26:15  <planetmaker> there's no height -1 ;-) The lowest height is sea level. Which is height 0
11:26:34  <planetmaker> so it depends on which height your town is located at
11:29:01  <__ln__> Simonn: you will have to play Locomotion if you like to build tunnels below sealevel.
11:29:18  <Simonn> lol nah not changing game lol :p
11:29:24  <Simonn> I just have my world set up supercool :(
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11:36:25  <Simonn> hi Supercheese
11:38:16  <__ln__> why doesn't any developer nowadays say "impossible, you'd have to rewrite half of the game" anymore, when someone has a feature request?
11:39:36  <Simonn> 2012 man
11:39:45  <Simonn> everythings possible
11:40:10  <__ln__> like building a tunnel below sealevel?
11:40:11  <planetmaker> that kind of statement is not true. Re-writing half the game *is* feasible ;-) But... neither fast. Nor necessarily what we want (in the particular way requested)
11:40:49  <planetmaker> __ln__, a new map array surely could also allow tunnels below sea level. Or even allow water at different depth - which could be used to enhance gameplay with ships.
11:41:01  <planetmaker> e.g. thinking of coasters vs. ocean steamer
11:41:29  <Simonn> I want my name in the game credits though
11:41:31  <Simonn> for the idea
11:41:33  <Simonn> & stuff
11:41:46  <__ln__> Simonn: the below sealevel idea?
11:41:50  <Simonn> sure
11:41:53  <planetmaker> which we have partially already in NewGRF specs with the canal speed fraction, e.g. different speeds on sea water vs. river / canal water
11:42:03  <__ln__> Simonn: it wasn't your idea
11:42:05  <planetmaker> lol, Simonn
11:42:11  <planetmaker> you're truely funny
11:42:34  <planetmaker> you're about 5 years late for that idea to be original. If even then
11:42:45  <planetmaker> Besidest he work is implementing it. Not spawning "funny" ideas
11:43:25  <__ln__> it most certainly isn't an original idea since Locomotion was released... and it probably isn't original since the channel tunnel was built.
11:43:38  <Simonn> guys i'm full of ideas
11:43:53  <planetmaker> good for you. Work to make them become reality. Then let's talk about credits again
11:44:25  <Simonn> =(
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12:36:12  <NGC3982>
12:36:19  * NGC3982 is in love with tiles.
12:49:32  * peter1138 is in love with tits
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12:51:33  <NGC3982> Second.
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13:36:33  <Simonn>
13:36:37  <Simonn> this is correct right?
13:36:52  <Simonn> I mean this will work... a bridge going over a tunnel like this?
13:40:08  <Belugas> hello
13:42:35  <Eddi|zuHause> why shouldn't it work?
13:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause> but i would remove the Xes between the bridges and the tunnels
13:43:30  <Eddi|zuHause> they do more harm than good
13:57:48  <Simonn> why? :p
13:57:51  <Simonn> what harm can they do?
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14:42:53  <Simonn> how to transfer
14:42:56  <Simonn> but load again after?
14:43:14  <Simonn> like I have a hub with 4 railroad tracks to it, with each 5 stations
14:43:41  <Simonn> I want the trains to load at the hub, go non stop to the last station, fully unload, and then on its way back load everything it can, and to transfer at the hub again
14:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> transfer&load does not work
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15:56:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: zuu * r24530 /trunk/src/textbuf.cpp: -Fix [#5203] (r24521): Ctrl+backspace/delete could remove too many characters (sbr)
15:56:57  <Zuu> Good morning CIA-1 :-)
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15:57:43  <Sacro> \o/
15:58:42  <Zuu> The commit was made about 40 minutes ago.
15:59:56  <Sacro> so?
16:00:39  <__ln__> 40 minutes ago central european time.
16:01:25  * Zuu assumed that CIA-1 was late because it was asleep. Thus the "good morning" :-p
16:04:59  <fjb> Do minutes have a different lenght in other time zones?
16:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the relativistic effect of earth's rotation :)
16:07:48  * fjb imagines one time zone rotating faster than the other.
16:08:04  <NGC3982> They don't.
16:08:13  <fjb> Really?
16:09:06  <NGC3982> Timezones are placed along the rotational vektor
16:09:22  <Eddi|zuHause> that was kinda part of the joke :)
16:09:34  <NGC3982> Though, part of timezones experience small differences due to relativistic effects.
16:09:45  * NGC3982 is really out of context here
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16:34:31  <Eddi|zuHause>
16:37:24  <andythenorth> so I need some help with BANDIT
16:37:29  <andythenorth> auto-refit has me puzzled
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16:38:55  <andythenorth> my intention was to have a small range of truck models, with auto-reft to all cargos
16:39:06  <andythenorth> but some work with FISH proved that isn't possible
16:39:23  <andythenorth> significant change to graphics at stations is unacceptable
16:39:58  <Eddi|zuHause> sorry, no time right now
16:40:36  <andythenorth> np :)
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16:40:56  <planetmaker> hm
16:41:03  <andythenorth> so I need a new scheme for trucks
16:41:10  <planetmaker> @logs
16:41:10  <DorpsGek> planetmaker:
16:41:24  <andythenorth> and reasons why this set should exist at all - opengfx + already has trucks
16:41:40  <Terkhen> when in doubt add more trucks, repeat until you get traffic jams
16:41:43  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Autro refit within similar groups, depot-refit with cost betwen different groups?
16:42:24  <FLHerne> And it should exist, because more trucks is always good
16:42:39  <andythenorth> FLHerne: there's no way to enforce that
16:42:48  <andythenorth> many cargos fit more than one group
16:42:50  <Terkhen> andythenorth: opengfx+ trucks are... too standard-ish
16:43:16  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Have subtypes so they can be in multiple groups?
16:43:19  <Terkhen> you only have 3 real models
16:43:22  <Terkhen> it is quite boring
16:43:26  <FLHerne> Or do subtypes not work that way :P
16:43:40  <andythenorth> the original scheme for BANDIT had way too many trucks
16:43:49  <andythenorth> I cut them down to about 1/3 the amount
16:43:56  <FLHerne> You can NEVER have too many vehicle types :-(
16:44:11  <andythenorth> maybe limiting cargo refits gives a reason to have more types
16:44:23  <FLHerne> Both :P
16:45:01  <FLHerne> Semi-trailers should definitely be refittable to everything ;-)
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16:47:37  <andythenorth> MP GS game later?
16:50:40  <Bad_Brett> what's gs? by the way andy, do fishing grounds still accept passengers and mail?
16:51:26  <Bad_Brett> well not mail
16:53:01  <Bad_Brett> by the way, i was rather surprised when i discovered your nick while browsing lego forums :)
16:54:09  <andythenorth> I do troll afols sometimes :P
16:54:17  <andythenorth> I tried being a lego fan, but it didn't work for me
16:54:28  <andythenorth> now I'm just 'person with house full of lego' instead
16:54:28  <andythenorth> :P
16:54:45  <andythenorth> GS is game script (NoGo)
16:55:23  <andythenorth> fishing grounds accept PAX, stupid isn't it?
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17:02:28  <Zuu> Bad_Brett: For example (parts) of city builder is possible to implement as a game script.
17:03:16  <Zuu> You could check out the script "Neighbours are important" that I've published on bananas (based on original work by Yexo)
17:07:04  <Zuu> (hmm... or if it was TB who made the original script that it is based on ..)
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17:13:17  <Simonn> can you merge towns?
17:13:24  <Simonn> like if they have grown into eachother
17:13:39  <Simonn> and one cannot grow anymore because it has no space, but traffic is transported very well
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17:33:22  <andythenorth> um
17:33:40  <andythenorth> what's the point in having nml output nfo7 grfs?
17:33:52  <andythenorth> does openttd stable *still* not support grf v8? :o
17:34:16  * andythenorth is confused
17:34:24  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I thought NML 0.3 did output grfv8?
17:34:56  * FLHerne is still only working on one very simple grf though :P
17:34:56  <andythenorth> there's a proposal to have it output v7, and to have that as default output
17:35:20  <FLHerne> Oh, right. Might be a good idea :-)
17:35:43  <andythenorth> seems to be yet another piece of fricking insanity to me
17:36:01  <FLHerne> The problem is all the recent 'simple' grfs that don't support pre-1.2, even when there's no real reason for that :P
17:36:03  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's about chillpp
17:36:33  <andythenorth> right
17:36:38  <frosch123> the question is what happens faster: nfo7 support in nml 0.6, or a successor to chillpp
17:36:52  <andythenorth> so why cripple the platform with cruft, for stupid pp support?
17:37:10  <andythenorth> and why bother with grf v8 at all?
17:37:25  <frosch123> miniin was also played for 4 years after its deprecation
17:37:40  <andythenorth> so v7 is still officially supported?
17:37:48  <andythenorth> and not deprecated
17:37:48  <andythenorth> ?
17:38:13  <frosch123> we even load tto savegames
17:38:13  <frosch123> so, what do you think? :p
17:38:56  <andythenorth> I think I should go back on holiday :)
17:38:56  <andythenorth> I find this an increasingly bizarre place :)
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17:42:20  <Wolf01> hello
17:42:55  <Simonn> heloo
17:43:07  <Simonn> man congestion
17:43:14  <Simonn> but no more room for tracks
17:43:44  <FLHerne> Simonn: Better signalling and track layout may be the answer :P
18:00:00  <Simonn> whats wrong with my signalling
18:00:00  <Simonn> :(
18:02:54  <Simonn>
18:05:14  <FLHerne> Well, that train crawling around a 90 degree bend in front of another one is hardly efficient ;-)
18:05:50  <Simonn> well except for that one lil turn
18:06:38  <Simonn> will that fix my capacity problem! no!
18:06:43  <Simonn> I need to start disowning peoples house
18:06:45  <Simonn> and then I feel bad
18:06:51  <Simonn> and the local authorities too
18:07:05  <FLHerne> Simonn: Exits of that station toward the left don't look great either, but it looks like you've bought some land to fix that?
18:07:45  <Simonn> originally the system would had had 6 tunnels
18:08:25  <Simonn> thats what that land was for
18:09:59  <Simonn> but I'm sure if I would upgrade my stations to 8 tracks each
18:10:02  <Simonn> the problem will continue
18:11:41  <Rubidium> it just requires more creativity
18:18:55  <Bad_Brett> This may be a really stupid question, but how do i replace trees in nml?
18:21:40  <Rubidium> I reckon by replacing the TTD sprites
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18:23:56  <Bad_Brett> yeah i thought so to, but didn't find them in the sprite list... let me check again
18:24:01  <Bad_Brett> *too
18:24:20  <Rubidium> they're somewhat spread around IIRC
18:25:13  <Bad_Brett> alright... is there a better list than this one:
18:25:14  <Bad_Brett>
18:25:22  <Bad_Brett> with the numbers
18:26:50  <Rubidium> don't think so, and that list is merely the ground tiles
18:27:18  <Rubidium> unless you want to read openttd source code
18:28:33  <Rubidium> <- not really useful either
18:28:57  <Rubidium> <- might be less useless
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18:47:43  <Bad_Brett> i'll check it out... thanks!
19:01:35  <NGC3982> Just a thought
19:01:53  <NGC3982> What happends if a two trains use a crossing signal system at the exact same tick?
19:03:33  <Rubidium> due to the serial nature of handling this, there will always be one train that is earlier than the other
19:04:29  <NGC3982> I see.
19:10:31  <Bad_Brett> hmm... the trees seem to have the same numbers as they have in the original trg1r.pcx... if that's the case it will be really easy to replace them
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19:44:39  <andythenorth> MP silicon valley game up on nightly server
19:44:46  * andythenorth breaks channel rules :o
19:47:16  <andythenorth> Zuu ?
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20:06:22  <__ln__> if someone's interested in seeing a finnish national exam of german language, here:
20:07:33  <SpComb> am not interested
20:08:04  <SpComb> I did write an eximia though
20:08:48  <__ln__> me too, but in the "shorter" version.
20:09:04  *** keoz [] has quit [Quit: keoz]
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20:20:16  <BadBrett> i understand pretty much of it actually
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20:27:44  <Terkhen> good night
20:41:47  <Simonn> man
20:41:52  <Simonn> anyone see the weeds episode?
20:42:41  <Simonn> wow 19 pages
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22:19:41  <Wolf01> 'night all
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