Log for #openttd on 25th September 2012:
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04:06:31  <Endymion_Mallorn> Alright, I have what even I consider to be a stupid question.  Why is it that OpenTTD is so amazingly user- and beginner- friendly when Simutrans is just.... so much not?
04:07:02  <Supercheese> Perhaps because OTTD is based on a reverse-engineered commercial game
04:07:08  <Supercheese> while I do not believe Simutrans is
04:08:17  <Supercheese> Also John Broomhall's music makes everything better ;)
04:09:07  <Endymion_Mallorn> True, but I have the Joplin anthology playing.
04:15:29  <Endymion_Mallorn> I mean, I'm not gonna pretend that I'm a whiz at OpenTTD (Block signals and presignals still confuse me a bit, and I'm quite happy with my eGRVTS trams for most things other than, like, coal.
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04:36:15  <Supercheese> Tried out the subways for OTTD yet?
04:36:27  <Supercheese> (completely unbiased advertising :P )
04:37:59  <Endymion_Mallorn> Which set of subways?
04:38:05  <Supercheese>
04:38:40  <Supercheese> (note author, hence "completely unbiased" ;) )
04:41:48  <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah, I see.  I've looked at it in GRFCrawler and BaNaNaS, and every time I've sort of wondered why I'd want a bunch of shadows running around my maps, especially if they're the same (mechanically), as my busses and trams.
04:46:54  <Supercheese> They're loads more efficient than most buses and trams
04:47:12  <Supercheese> 800 max passenger capacity and instant loading
04:47:25  <Supercheese> but yeah, it's mostly preference
04:47:48  <Supercheese> so if you want a subway system, you can have one; there's really no other good way to make subways in OTTD
04:48:30  <Endymion_Mallorn> Not without super-hilly terrain and rail tunnels galore.
04:48:54  <Supercheese> and with no signals in tunnels, things get very inefficient
04:50:44  <Endymion_Mallorn> True.
04:51:39  <Supercheese> [offtopic] Hawaii Five-0 starts back up tonight! [/offtopic]
04:51:54  <Endymion_Mallorn> Alright.  I'mma download and play with it - and next time I'm on IRC, I'll give you my impressions.
04:52:00  <Supercheese> :D
04:52:12  <Supercheese> also, I'm glad to hear people still use grfcrawler
04:52:28  <Supercheese> there's been talk of shutting it down
04:52:50  <Supercheese> although that isn't going to happen now, it had me dismayed
04:52:55  <Endymion_Mallorn> I do because it's a million times more organized than the OpenTTD content download server.
04:53:11  <Supercheese> yeah, thumbnail previews alone make it loads better
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04:55:12  <Endymion_Mallorn> I mean, I still download through the Online Content window, but it helps to look - plus, it was there that I first ran into what I consider to be like, the one thing I feel is real mastery of the game - if you can do well with the full set of ECS Vectors up-and-running, I think you've basically 'won'.
04:55:49  <Endymion_Mallorn> Either way, I gotta hit the hay.  Like I said, I'll go grab the Fake Subways NewGRF before I do.
04:55:49  <Supercheese> If you can manage all industries on ultimate production... yeah, you deserve a medal :)
04:55:53  <Endymion_Mallorn> Yep
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06:33:11  <Supercheese> So, I'm thinking of adding a futuristic Double-deck subway to the fake subways grf... good idea yes/no?
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06:58:33  <Terkhen> good morning
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06:59:06  <telanus> hi
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07:06:08  <NGC3982> Good morning.
07:06:17  <Supercheese> Salvete
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09:13:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder how you'd send a doubledeck vehicle through e.g. the london tube tunnels :)
09:15:57  <NGC3982> Hah.
09:16:04  <NGC3982> This has been a fruitful morning.
09:16:32  <NGC3982> The swedish national-cultural library announced this morning that they will exklude the Hergé work of Tintin
09:16:43  <NGC3982> Since there has been a debate on the racial implications of the older books.
09:16:52  <NGC3982> The internet got completely bonkers.
09:17:03  <NGC3982> And they pulled the statement back three hours later.
09:17:12  <NGC3982> We sure love our Tintin. ;)
09:17:22  <NGC3982> Exclude*
09:17:52  <SpComb> you can't retroactively pull out cultural heritage like that
09:17:58  <__ln__> you can
09:18:40  <NGC3982> Of course they can, but it's dumb and bigoted.
09:19:29  <planetmaker> Tim Sawyer and Huckleberry fin should also be forbidden to be available in libraries
09:19:56  <NGC3982> And the bible, and the Quran, and Gone with the wind, and.
09:19:57  <NGC3982> ..
09:20:17  <NGC3982> Politically correct bullshit. And they got smacked in the face for it.
09:20:20  <NGC3982> And i love it.
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09:54:30  <Elukka> to be fair some of the older tintin was pretty damn racist
09:54:32  <Elukka> it got better though
09:55:48  <Elukka> you'd think that if you were concerned about that you'd maybe move them to the adults' section or something though
09:57:36  <__ln__> "it got better though" = got more racist?
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10:29:13  <Elukka> less racist!
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10:43:28  <__ln__> but modern racism as a concept was only invented later
10:59:38  <Elukka> what?
11:02:15  <__ln__> was Tintin considered racist at the time when it was first published?
11:02:40  <Elukka> probably not, by most people
11:02:45  <Elukka> what does that have to do with anything, though?
11:04:08  <__ln__> a lot
11:07:06  <__ln__> that's like the whole reason why it's still quite ok to keep Tintins in a library shelf.
11:07:41  <Elukka> oh, sure
11:07:47  <Elukka> i wouldn't remove them either
11:08:05  <Elukka> though i'd maybe consider moving works like tintin in the congo outside of the usual comics section...
11:09:26  <NGC3982> It's a cultural heritage
11:09:29  <NGC3982> That's it
11:09:46  <__ln__> the comics section should in any case be split into children's and adult section, it's not only about tintin.
11:09:54  <planetmaker> interesting voting statistics :-) Math rules
11:10:01  <Elukka> well, it is in my local library! :D
11:10:03  <Elukka> split, i mean
11:10:10  <Elukka> tintin still goes entirely in the kids' section as far as i know though
11:10:19  <Elukka> there are certainly comics aimed at adults
11:11:14  <Elukka> i think the issue here is works that espouse a racist view of the world intended for people who can't necessarily appreciate their historical and cultural context (ie, kids)
11:11:25  <NGC3982> The thing is, the really lame thing about this is not the fact that old cultural stuff is racist
11:11:48  <NGC3982> The horrible thing is that the person responsible for keeping it starts bragging in the media about how neat his censoring of it is.
11:12:09  <NGC3982> And that is what's really making us swedes go butthurt mc'extra-large.
11:12:53  <Elukka> removing it from the library altogether would be really dumb
11:13:31  <NGC3982> That would also imply the library having to remove all fiction, the bible, and all the books that have ever offended anyone in any context.
11:13:40  <NGC3982> And that's simply lame and illogical.
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13:08:34  <Jake> Anyone else having trouble attaching files?
13:09:20  <planetmaker> there's a size limit at tt-forums of 6(?) megabytes
13:09:31  <planetmaker> and a limit of 3 attachments per posting
13:12:09  <planetmaker> Jake, if you want a screenshot shown inline, keep it <= 800x600px; it will then work automatically, if attached
13:14:03  <Jake> It's not that I was hitting the upload limit, it's more that it was timing out. Wasn't sure if it was the forum or my connection that was on the blink.
13:16:25  <planetmaker> I didn't try to upload anything today... usually it just works, though
13:18:12  <Jake> I wonder if it's not the PNG file. Oh, well, if all else fails I'll put them in my Box account.
13:19:28  <planetmaker> png files are also usually no issue. Actually they're the preferred file format for screenshots
13:19:57  <Jake> Oh, wait... How the hell did it end up being 14.9MB?
13:20:04  <planetmaker> true colour?
13:20:15  <planetmaker> while it could do with 8bpp
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13:20:39  <planetmaker> how do you create screenshots? Do you use the ingame functionality via ctrl+s?
13:21:04  <planetmaker> then it *should* us the appropriate bit depths
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13:23:37  <Jake> Yeah. I just made the mistake of doing a "whole map screenshot" without realising how big it'd be. Anyway, they'll be viewable once a moderator gets around to approving the second post:
13:23:45  <planetmaker> haha :-)
13:24:28  <Jake> I can't even open it in Firefox!
13:25:01  <planetmaker> hm, I'm afraid I can't approve it in that sub-forum
13:29:26  <Jake> Not to worry.
13:32:19  <Jake> And here's the big screenshot:
13:37:07  <planetmaker> what's the total map size in tiles?
13:37:20  <planetmaker> sounds like an interesting scenario
13:38:24  <Jake> 256x256, I think; can't remember exactly what I set it to when I started.
13:39:04  <planetmaker> ah, that's decent. That info. And the list of required NewGRFs (and whether they are all on bananas) should IMHO be added to the scenario description in the first post
13:39:20  <planetmaker> if there are non-bananas NewGRFs you should also provide links to the download locations
13:40:10  <planetmaker> I usually need those two info to decide whether I want to play it. And it's 100% essential to decide whether i can host it on one of our servers
13:41:21  <Belugas> hello
13:41:22  <planetmaker> you can check the size by using the landscape info tool from the main toolbar, querying the lower most tile. Or by looking at the info in the scenario load screen
13:41:25  <planetmaker> hi Belugas
13:41:36  <Belugas> hi planetmaker :)
13:41:41  <Jake> Good point that. I'll have to load the scenario up so I can write down all the NewGRFs I used, but they're definitely all on bananas.
13:42:00  <planetmaker> ah, that's good info from my POV
13:44:50  <planetmaker> it will make it feasible to consider throwing it at the crowd on the #openttdcoop Welcome server :-)
13:45:47  <Jake> Sounds cool.
13:45:55  <planetmaker> you know that you can also provide the scenario via bananas to the users?
13:46:24  <Jake> Yep. I've acquired several that way.
13:46:30  <planetmaker> :-)
13:49:41  <Jake> Okay, post edited to include NewGRF information.
13:51:47  <planetmaker> nice :-)
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15:56:03  <andythenorth> ra
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17:52:38  <Wolf01> hello
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17:56:39  <Alberth> moin
17:58:22  <planetmaker> hi Alberth
18:07:54  <Wolf01> hello Alberth
18:08:08  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
18:10:49  <Wolf01> today I tried to make a touch menu for the jquery fullcalendar as it doesn't support very well the touch events also if I use touch-punch or jquery-mobile, too bad my coordinator killed my intents because he doesn't like the touch screens, so I had to resort to the usual textboxes+datepicker to change the events :(
18:11:53  <Alberth> replace the coordinator instead :p
18:11:53  <Wolf01> and this made my mood very bad, so bad I can try to make something working for OTTD to get rid of the CTRL problem
18:12:52  * Alberth steps out of the way for anyone wanting to play with OpenTTD source code :)
18:15:44  <Alberth> I wasn't aware of having a CTRL problem tbh
18:15:44  <Alberth> I only had problems with CTRL once while laying tracks, where wrongly timed pressing(?) or releasing(?) the CTRL key switched pressed/released CTRL behaviour of the window. Unfortunately I never figured out how to reproduce that :(
18:15:50  <Wolf01> the problem is not how to implement it, it's how one wants to use it, something like a radial menu with a long pressure, a mini-toolbar in a random corner with "enter", "ctrl" and "del" keys (chat, ctrl and clear windows)?
18:16:47  <Wolf01> I have too many ideas and no one seem to be the effective one
18:18:27  <Alberth> perhaps just pick one, implement it, and show at the forum, asking for improvements???
18:18:40  <planetmaker> calc 2**13
18:18:44  <Rubidium> wasn't there already something like this in a patch?
18:18:45  <planetmaker> @calc 2**13
18:18:45  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 8192
18:19:07  <Rubidium> come on planetmaker, that could be done from the head ;)
18:19:15  <Rubidium> 2**3 * 1024 ;)
18:19:34  <Alberth> unless you still expect a break-through :)
18:19:46  <Rubidium> there was this game show a while ago where you had to name powers of two... for some reason they failed pretty soon
18:21:18  <Alberth> just use hexadecimal or binary numbers :p
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18:48:27  <Jake> Thanks for letting me know about those errors, planetmaker. Should all be fixed now.
18:49:24  <planetmaker> :-) no problem
18:51:54  <Jake> I'm glad you like the map; I spent longer working on it it than some people might consider healthy. I suppose I'd better start thinking about my next project now. Maybe something based on Canadian railways...
18:53:00  <planetmaker> keep to a sane map size like < 512**512 (250000 or 500000 tiles max) - that allows to really keep playing it till the end :-)
18:53:18  <planetmaker> and it shows that you spent lots of time on the scenario
18:54:53  <Jake> By the way, I had an idea for a newGRF the other day, but I'm not sure if it's feasible. How many different types of cargo can a single economy building accept?
18:55:20  <Alberth> 'single economy' ?
18:56:40  <Jake> I dunno how best to explain it. I was thinking of a "Seaport" structure that can accept *any* cargo, or maybe just processed products.
18:56:48  <planetmaker> industries can accept three cargos. houses... not sure. probably also three: passengers, mail and a 3rd defined one
18:57:04  <Alberth> planetmaker: industry tiles?
18:57:06  <planetmaker> there's no general-purpose houses available
18:57:51  <planetmaker> industry tiles can also each accept 3 cargos
18:57:55  <Jake> Hmmm. Maybe I could achieve the effect with different "terminals".
19:01:44  <Jake> Only problem with that is, I couldn't then stop them being built at random as the economy develops... Or at least I don't think so.
19:05:22  <planetmaker> Jake, you could... you could only allow construction in the SE. Or by the player. But disallow construction by the game
19:07:11  <Jake> Excellent.
19:07:41  <planetmaker> in an industry's location_check you can query the industry creation type and return 'CB_RESULT_LOCATION_DISALLOW', if the game wants to create such industry on its own
19:08:27  <Alberth> another solution is perhaps to make a cluster of such industries near each other
19:10:15  <Jake> That's pretty much how I envisioned placing them. Thanks guys.
19:11:23  <Alberth> I meant, FIRS clusters farms together, you may be able to do a similar trick
19:11:41  <Jake> Oh, I see.
19:11:41  <Alberth> although you don't get guarantees that you'll get all buildings
19:12:28  <Alberth> (except you can force 1 to be present at the map)
19:13:10  <Jake> I can live with that. I think once I finish my current modding project for another game I'm going to go take a look at the innards of FIRS.
19:14:37  <Alberth> andy may have a few things you can fix while getting your feet wet :)
19:15:54  * Jake chuckles. "I hope he doesn't recognise my name from the Bay 12 forums."
19:19:15  <Jake> My first major modding project is an updated version of someone else's abandoned but functional project and I still managed to screw up hilariously. v1.0's going to be when I've fixed all the stuff I broke.
19:19:18  <Yexo> I'm going to go take a look at the innards of FIRS. <- be prepared for anything in there
19:20:13  <andythenorth> FIRS
19:20:15  <andythenorth> hmm
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20:08:59  <andythenorth> bye
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20:09:09  <Alberth> bye andy
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21:13:49  <Terkhen> good night
21:34:21  <NGC3982> Might i hand ye a nightly tip
21:34:30  <NGC3982> Hubble just released a new ass-face photo
21:34:40  <NGC3982> XDF - Hubble Extreme Deep Field
21:34:44  <NGC3982>
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21:47:35  <Wolf01> 'ight all
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