Log for #openttd on 2nd October 2012:
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00:52:13  <TorA> Anyone here know why I have no Livestock car in the NARS when it's 1937?
00:52:21  <TorA> Better yet, anyone know a way to fix that :\
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07:21:14  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:29:36  <KnogleAFK> morning
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07:34:22  <NGC3982> What's NARS?
07:34:45  <NGC3982> Oh, six hours late.
07:38:28  <Terkhen> north american rail set IIRC, a trains NewGRF
07:39:13  <NGC3982> Ah, i see.
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07:49:49  <andythenorth> blah blah blah
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11:10:47  <NGC3982> Is there any NewGRF with giant train wagons?
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11:13:23  <planetmaker> yes. cets
11:13:29  <planetmaker> search the devzone
11:13:44  <planetmaker> I still got the feeling "giant" is a rubber term and I understand it MUCH differently from you
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11:16:37  <NGC3982> Oh, i see.
11:17:06  <NGC3982> Well, i was talking about capacity
11:17:18  <NGC3982> But didn't mention it, for some reason.
11:17:20  <NGC3982> :>
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12:24:31  <Eddi|zuHause> well CETS has double-decker S-Bahn wagons :)
12:33:36  <NGC3982> Ooh
12:35:13  <Eddi|zuHause> the long-distance wagons have around the same capacity (per tile, not per wagon) as the original wagons, the local wagons have around 50% more, and the s-bahn wagons have around double capacity, the double decker wagons have additional capacity.
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12:52:54  <Elukka> oberhÃŒmer hasn't drawn quite that far yet, has he? :P
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13:05:06  <NGC3982> Elukka: Sounds nice.
13:05:08  <NGC3982> Ill try it.
13:09:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: not really
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14:25:50  <doki_pen_> is there a good place to learn openttd scripting for a programmer?
14:29:16  <planetmaker> here, tt-forums, and of course the API documentation at and
14:29:56  <planetmaker> and there's an admin port; it's somewhat documented in the docs shipped with openttd. there's a java library and a python library for it around
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14:30:41  <planetmaker> not exactly sure what you need / want, doki_pen_
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15:29:09  <andythenorth> michi_cc: PEBKAC is a nice acronym :)
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17:18:06  <doki_pen_> planetmaker: thanks
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17:18:15  <doki_pen_> got distracted by work
17:18:42  <doki_pen_> i just want to mainly see what's possible. Is it possible to script monotonous tasks?
17:19:00  <doki_pen_> for instance, upgrading from electric rail to monorail is a PITA
17:20:19  <doki_pen_> here is what I do now: depot all trains. upgrade everything I can. go through every depot that didn't get upgraded and create a monorail version of the train, copying the old trains schedule(with ctrl-click). Sell old trains.
17:20:25  <doki_pen_> don't know if there is an easier way
17:20:34  <doki_pen_> and finally, convert all remaining depots
17:21:20  <M1zera> hmm... I usualy see about 3-4 episodes of The Simpsons before I upgrade all trains
17:21:45  <doki_pen_> haha, is that the trick?
17:22:19  <Prof_Frink> doki_pen_: Yep, that's about standard.
17:22:31  <M1zera> :-)
17:22:38  <Prof_Frink> But I generally don't bother with monorail, and wait for maglev.
17:23:12  <Prof_Frink> (I do tend to build a transmap standalone monorail line, just because I can)
17:23:13  <doki_pen_> i just started playing a couple of weeks ago, I haven't played one long enough to get maglev yet
17:23:22  <M1zera> I build monorail only as new tracks outside of my network.
17:23:52  <doki_pen_> but my current one will probably last that long
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17:24:35  <doki_pen_> how come when I try to find a server, most of them are incompatible?
17:24:56  <doki_pen_> do i have to install some plugins manually?
17:29:41  <M1zera> "Downloadable GRFs" in menu
17:30:19  <M1zera> "Check online content"
17:30:21  <M1zera> my bad
17:31:16  <M1zera> I prefer playing solo, I usualy play one map for weeks... play for 15min, pause for hours to days unpause... :)
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17:38:14  <Alberth> building new tracks or manually rebuilding lines with the new track type is much more fun imho; also you often rethink the layout, and improve the network as well.
17:42:09  <planetmaker> doki_pen_, scripts are not intended as helpers for the player; thus their capabilities are also not designed for that
17:42:27  <planetmaker> scripts are either separate players or global game scripts
17:43:01  <planetmaker> upgrading to monorail is easy: depot all trains. mass-convert the whole map. build new depots; build new trains with shared orders with the old. about 10 minutes time
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17:53:19  <dada__> "One of the great things about GOG is that many games run in DOS. Mac users can run these games using the Macintosh version of Dosbox or by using Boxer, another DOS emulator."
17:53:25  <dada__> oops, wrong channel
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18:02:06  <Wolf01> evenink
18:02:13  <Alberth> hi Wolf01, andythenorth
18:05:10  <peter1138> GOG: Games you can download from "abandonware" sites instead
18:06:43  <__ln__> if you don't care about breaking the law.
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18:47:44  <andythenorth> hmm
18:47:49  <andythenorth> my autorefit poll is not going well
18:47:57  <andythenorth> I was hoping for policy-based evidence making
18:48:27  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The evidence doesn't suit your policy :P
18:48:35  * FLHerne voted 'essential' :D
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18:49:01  <andythenorth> I need different evidence
18:49:15  * andythenorth considers a different poll
18:49:26  <Alberth> andythenorth: you can prove anything with statistics :p
18:49:48  <andythenorth> "a tiny minority of respondents consider autorefit 'essential'"
18:50:26  <andythenorth> or a new poll, just two answers... "autorefit: [  ] not needed  [   ] I suck and am a bad person"
18:51:00  <planetmaker> [x] I suck and am a bad person ;-)
18:51:49  <planetmaker> (going to trigger the nuke in fallout3's megaton ;-) )
18:52:00  <Alberth> [x] never used autorefit
18:52:25  <FLHerne> [x] Rely on it for almost everything, network would fall apart without it :P
18:52:37  <M1zera> hm, i have played F3 many times and i have never blown Megaton up... Im just the good guy...
18:53:32  <FLHerne> However, I also rely on template-replace, which is unstable, non-MP-safe, abandoned and has no chance of getting in trunk soon :-(
18:53:54  <andythenorth> FLHerne: you can't possibly rely on it for almost everything
18:54:00  <andythenorth> most newgrfs don't offer it
18:54:04  <andythenorth> nor the default vehicles
18:54:24  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The ones I use most do now :P
18:54:27  <andythenorth> unless you have a *very* specific play style :P
18:54:41  <Alberth> andythenorth: what makes you think you need most newgrfs ?
18:54:54  <andythenorth> point
18:55:48  <FLHerne> UKRS2 and FISH2ish do, and those cover 80+% of my cargo movement :-)
18:55:59  * FLHerne waits for autorefitting HEQS :P
18:56:10  <FLHerne> Then I can get 90+% :D
18:56:42  <andythenorth> impossible
18:56:52  <andythenorth> [HEQS with autorefitting]
18:57:54  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Other than the trams?
18:57:57  <andythenorth> actually not impossible
18:58:00  <andythenorth> but not acceptable
18:58:10  <andythenorth> not acceptable ~= impossible
18:59:29  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Besides the trams, what's different from any other RV set for that?
19:01:05  <andythenorth> the mining trucks would be entirely, 100% fine
19:01:18  <andythenorth> and the foundry transporters
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19:02:01  <FLHerne> What would a foundry transporter autorefit to anyway? :P
19:02:25  <FLHerne> Just separate the tram models and have done with it :D
19:02:32  <FLHerne> Oh, and the crawlers :P
19:03:56  <andythenorth> I'm not against having the trams in a separate grf
19:03:59  <andythenorth> that's plausible
19:04:11  <andythenorth> it's a bit of hassle, more repos, more readmes, more banananaas admin
19:05:20  <FLHerne> What's wrong with as now?
19:05:32  <FLHerne> You have a param anyway...
19:06:05  <planetmaker> I don't think there's need to split HEQS... it's not too big really
19:06:28  <andythenorth> I find it kind of baffling to make a grf with some vehicles supporting autorefit and others not
19:06:51  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I said before, there's no way you can get worse than default/eGRVTS-style vehicle spam. Don't bother about it :P
19:07:13  <FLHerne> andythenorth: If you split the trams and crawlers by length, could you autorfit them?
19:07:17  <andythenorth> FLHerne: 105 trams would be needed
19:07:46  <andythenorth> hmm
19:07:55  <andythenorth> could have a parameter to turn each one on / off
19:08:14  <andythenorth> ho
19:08:17  <frosch123> nml only supports 64 parameters
19:08:20  <andythenorth> could make one grf per tram
19:08:26  <andythenorth> that's quite nice
19:08:27  <frosch123> though, you only need bools
19:08:39  <andythenorth> one grf per vehicle = just add the vehicles you want
19:10:13  <andythenorth> idea: remove cargo / body type graphics
19:10:22  <andythenorth> everything is just a box truck / box tram
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19:10:43  <andythenorth> solves a lot of the issues
19:11:33  * andythenorth has another idea
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19:11:55  <andythenorth> currently refitting to n trailers causes other trailers to be hidden
19:12:05  <andythenorth> what if refit is '2 trailers, but only load 1'
19:12:13  <andythenorth> then length never changes, graphics never change
19:17:10  <FLHerne> andythenorth: But then there's no point :P
19:17:19  <andythenorth> por quoi?
19:17:48  <FLHerne> Why bother refitting to lower capacities, if there's no advantage?
19:18:03  <andythenorth> why refit by length at all?
19:18:09  <andythenorth> why not just use the longest?
19:18:12  <FLHerne> I do it for trams to avoid wasting miles of road space, but that doesn't work if they don't change :P
19:18:28  <FLHerne> Long ones look silly sometimes :P
19:18:38  <frosch123> actually in most cases :p
19:19:19  <andythenorth> that suggests trams are simply just too long
19:19:29  <andythenorth> maybe there's an optimum length for them?
19:19:56  * andythenorth proposes 1 length, and box-van graphics only
19:20:03  <andythenorth> [or open trucks with tarpaulins]
19:20:13  <andythenorth> is 70t about right?
19:20:40  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Long ones are handy sometimes :-(
19:20:59  <FLHerne> But short ones and medium ones are too :P
19:21:10  <FLHerne> Just add them all, and make a long buy-menu :P
19:21:31  <frosch123> andythenorth: solve the purchase list issue with sane retire dates
19:21:34  <FLHerne> Perhaps you need a buy-menu-subcategory thing :P
19:21:42  <andythenorth> proposed HEQS 2: remove crawlers, tractors etc (stupid anyway).  Mining trucks are fine.  Make trams one length (70t) and one set of graphics only
19:21:46  <frosch123> there is no need to make more than 15 trams available at a single point in time
19:22:01  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Noooo! :-(
19:22:05  <frosch123> for current heqs there is always a clearly best tram
19:22:11  <frosch123> the rest just need to retire
19:22:20  <FLHerne> Then I wouldn't have crawlers, and short trams, and long trams :-(
19:22:32  <andythenorth> FLHerne: but you will have autorefit
19:22:36  <andythenorth> which you considered essentia
19:22:37  <andythenorth> l
19:22:39  <FLHerne> BOTH! :D
19:22:43  <andythenorth> spec says no
19:23:01  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Less tram overlap, separate the lengths
19:23:12  <FLHerne> I don't mind the crawlers enormously
19:23:25  <FLHerne> Keep them, but don't allow autorefit perhaps?
19:23:44  <FLHerne> I only use them for ultra-specific roles anyway, so that's not so bad
19:23:51  <andythenorth> all or nothing
19:24:02  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's silly :P
19:24:04  <andythenorth> I'm not making a grf with 'some autorefit, but only if you scrutinise the readme'
19:24:13  <andythenorth> it's crappy
19:24:48  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Have crawlers disabled by default, with parameter?
19:25:00  <andythenorth> sticking plaster, not a solution
19:25:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: i think you get it wrong :p
19:25:22  <frosch123> making all trams the same is pointless
19:25:28  <frosch123> then you can as well make only one
19:25:34  <FLHerne> Say that the crawlers are specially-built on site, for the exact purpose :P
19:25:38  <andythenorth> frosch123 I am considering that option :D
19:25:56  <andythenorth> there is always only one obvious best, right?
19:26:01  <andythenorth> so just make one :P
19:26:17  <frosch123> with your approach of making everything the same, yes
19:26:26  <frosch123> that's why all or nothing is wrong
19:26:34  <andythenorth> when playing GS I don't think it matters
19:26:38  <andythenorth> GS is short
19:26:39  <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, just withdraw the old models
19:26:47  <andythenorth> all this model progression crap is over-rated
19:27:08  <andythenorth> in GS MP we just use one train, and people get yelled at for choosing a different one
19:27:09  <FLHerne> I don't see the point in having the first electric ones available by the time the 4th ones come out :P
19:27:18  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's non-typical ;-)
19:27:33  * FLHerne wants realism and variety
19:28:03  <Alberth> FLHerne: andy is the wrong person for granting such wishes :)
19:28:06  <FLHerne> The thing about model progression is that you need a real difference, not just a little bigger and faster
19:28:19  * andythenorth digresses
19:28:20  <FLHerne> FISH and HEQS don't do that enough :-(
19:28:35  <andythenorth> it's because it can't be done
19:28:36  <Alberth> no auto-refit :p
19:28:49  <andythenorth> what real difference would you have?
19:28:57  <andythenorth> there are no road types or water types?
19:29:07  <andythenorth> breakdowns are meaningless
19:29:18  <andythenorth> so reliability is a moot point
19:29:22  <andythenorth> nobody cares about costs
19:29:43  <andythenorth> the only factors are capacity and speed
19:29:44  <frosch123> andythenorth: take a look at nuts
19:29:44  * Alberth thinks cargo is the main form of differences
19:29:48  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Can ships go faster in different seasons? :-)
19:30:00  <andythenorth> they could vary speed by date yes
19:30:02  <frosch123> make a distinction between fast vehicles, high capacity and similiar
19:30:07  <frosch123> don't allow all combinations
19:30:21  <FLHerne> Then as they get more powerful, they'll be less affected by weather :D
19:30:42  <andythenorth> ships don't have power
19:30:46  <andythenorth> and I can't be bothered to fake that
19:30:54  <andythenorth> it's hard to explain in one line in the buy menu
19:30:55  <frosch123> they have loading times
19:30:57  <andythenorth> yes
19:31:02  <frosch123> and speed
19:31:03  <FLHerne> Just make the newer ones less affected by date :P
19:31:04  <frosch123> and capacity
19:31:09  <andythenorth> meh
19:31:15  <andythenorth> it sounds complicated and pointless to me
19:31:27  * FLHerne likes complicated gameplay ;-)
19:31:36  <FLHerne> Pointlessness is subjective :P
19:31:47  <andythenorth> well yes
19:31:49  <andythenorth> :P
19:31:57  <frosch123> andythenorth: so, let's just say: take the tram and ship graphics, make every tram only available in a single length configuration
19:32:01  <frosch123> and randomise all other stats
19:32:09  <andythenorth> I've considered random stats before :)
19:32:09  <frosch123> like power, length, capacity per wagon, ...
19:32:23  * FLHerne doesn't get it :P
19:32:24  <Alberth> Zuu_: I don't understand the phrase "More Complex Orders" in STR_SHIPS_3_4_1
19:33:01  <Alberth> are there complex orders before?
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19:33:30  <andythenorth> frosch123: randomise the ships stats too? :D
19:33:40  <frosch123> yup
19:33:48  <frosch123> capacity, speed and loading time
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19:34:04  <Zuu_> Alberth: Let me dig it up
19:34:05  <Alberth> frosch123 likes surprises in his game
19:34:21  <frosch123> though maybe you want to put the capacity in relation with the graphics size
19:34:25  <andythenorth> maybe :P
19:34:34  <frosch123> Alberth: different vehicles in each game would be awesome
19:34:48  <andythenorth> frosch123: randomise per model type, or per vehicle instance?
19:34:50  <frosch123> that's why i wonder why so few people play without breakdowns
19:35:00  <frosch123> currently they are the only means to have some randomness in games
19:35:03  * andythenorth likes breakdowns
19:35:11  <frosch123> and then others even want to get rid of random intro dates :s
19:35:14  <Alberth> Zuu_:   some random text nearby
19:35:25  <Zuu_> Alberth: Here it says "Ships - Complex Orders"
19:35:58  <Alberth> So what's 'Complex' about?
19:36:15  <andythenorth> FLHerne: can you explain how you would have more complications in a [realistic] ship set?
19:36:21  <Zuu_> It is a title for the entire 3_4_* part
19:36:27  <andythenorth> there are gaps in FISH so this is a genuine question
19:36:55  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Add seasonal weather, loading speeds, cargo aging (massive difference for fish and livestock, for example)
19:36:58  <Zuu_> Maybe complex is a too strong word, but it refers to the fact that full load orders are used I think.
19:37:17  <FLHerne> Faster in one direction would be nice, but impossibel?
19:37:19  <Zuu_> I wonder though, where did you get your english.txt?
19:37:30  <andythenorth> FLHerne: seasonal weather is a creative but insane idea
19:37:36  <andythenorth> we already discussed prevailing winds etc
19:37:44  <andythenorth> and it was ruled out as pointless, fragile insane :)
19:37:50  <Alberth> Zuu_:  says otherwise
19:38:00  <andythenorth> I like the seasonal idea though
19:38:10  <FLHerne> Also add faster, smaller ones (slightly more difference in speed than as now)
19:38:19  <andythenorth> faster smaller whats?
19:38:24  <FLHerne> Boats
19:38:52  * FLHerne is wandering again :P
19:39:00  <Zuu_> Alberth: I'm sorry, but it appears that I haven't commited the last version there.
19:39:10  <andythenorth> faster smaller boats - speed, capacity suggestions?
19:39:12  <FLHerne> The small ones could use a couple more knots to differentiate ;-)
19:39:27  <FLHerne> I mean the 70tonish ones
19:39:35  <Alberth> Zuu_: ah, that explains the difference :)
19:39:35  <Zuu_> As you see in the commit log, it only have version 8.
19:39:38  <andythenorth> so a 70t, 50mph hovercraft for example?
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19:39:59  <FLHerne> Not quite that (you have one already, right?)
19:40:06  <frosch123> just turn the utility vessel into a speedboat :)
19:40:15  <FLHerne> Perhaps have some 25knot boats?
19:40:24  <andythenorth> the LCAC for example?
19:40:24  <FLHerne> High cost, lowish capacity
19:40:25  <Alberth> Zuu_: I don't know the current version number, I just took 'tip'
19:40:39  <andythenorth> I am waiting for render paints on the hovercraft, there are two renders
19:40:44  <Zuu_> Ok, I've pushed the changes now.
19:40:51  <FLHerne> Those big hovers look nice
19:40:58  <Zuu_> Sorry for the trouble I've caused you.
19:41:03  <andythenorth> I've had the renders for ~2 years ;)
19:41:12  <Alberth> ok, let's see how much test you broke :)
19:41:20  <andythenorth> loading speeds....what do you think they are set to currently?
19:41:56  <FLHerne> But yes, I'd like something to carry a sane amount of cargo (not a porcupine) a little faster :-)
19:42:11  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh, did you do that already? :P
19:42:21  * FLHerne hasn't had new FISH for too long :P
19:42:44  <andythenorth> there is not that much variation tbh, RHS of this table
19:42:48  <andythenorth> oops wrong link
19:42:50  <andythenorth>
19:43:04  <Zuu_> Alberth: Its basically all changes by Pingaware + some changes by me. Version 8 added the whole road chapter, so I think there are quite a few text changes in version 9 regarding that chapter. For the other chapters, the number of changes should be lower.
19:43:05  <frosch123> andythenorth: no hoovercraft, just hydrofoil
19:43:17  <andythenorth> the point being, you have no idea in game of what loading speeds are
19:43:21  <andythenorth> so meh to those
19:43:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: only hydrofoil, rm all other ship types? :)
19:44:07  <Alberth> Zuu_: I'll have a look; thanks for the update
19:44:36  <Zuu_> For the record, I'm not convinced that the whole chapter name should be included in the sub section heading.
19:44:40  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Subtle differences are nice too :-)
19:44:52  <andythenorth> you want I show the loading speed in the buy menu?
19:45:00  <FLHerne> Yup :D
19:45:01  <andythenorth> openttd should do it, but I don't mind making up for defects :P
19:45:13  <FLHerne> Show *everything* in the buy menu :P
19:45:34  <andythenorth> we did invent an improved buy menu
19:45:38  <andythenorth> but we didn't code it :)
19:46:15  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:46:30  <FLHerne> What's the new thing in latest nightly for FISH2?
19:46:45  * FLHerne is stuck a few hundred revisions back :P
19:47:48  <Alberth> Zuu_: for now, I am just translating. I have not played it yet
19:48:13  * Alberth pushes and merges FLHerne unstuck
19:49:08  <andythenorth> FLHerne:
19:51:26  * FLHerne hasn't spotted it yet :P
19:51:40  <FLHerne> Which way round are those things about ocean/river speed?
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19:52:06  <andythenorth> some river ships were slower on sea
19:52:12  <andythenorth> this makes them entirely pointless
19:52:15  <andythenorth> so I removed that
19:52:22  <FLHerne> :-(
19:52:27  <FLHerne> I liked that :P
19:52:34  <FLHerne> More difference
19:52:40  <FLHerne> Difference is goos
19:52:43  <andythenorth> no less difference
19:52:54  <Supercheese> river ships are still faster on rivers
19:52:58  <andythenorth> yes
19:53:08  <Supercheese> than ocean ships
19:53:18  <FLHerne> SO what's the change?
19:53:27  <andythenorth> ?
19:53:31  <andythenorth> what's the question? :)
19:53:57  <FLHerne> If river ships remain faster on rivers, how did you remove the slowness?
19:54:05  <andythenorth> I stopped them being slow
19:54:26  <Supercheese> Riverships' river speeds: unchanged
19:54:26  <FLHerne> But then how can be faster on rivers if they're not slower on the sea?
19:54:34  <Supercheese> Riverships' ocean speeds: no longer slow
19:54:39  <andythenorth> what he said ;)
19:54:43  <Supercheese> :D
19:54:52  <FLHerne> But then I can use river ships on the ocean :-(
19:54:57  <andythenorth> yes
19:54:58  <FLHerne> Whic is silly :P
19:55:01  <andythenorth> no
19:55:02  <Supercheese> why?
19:55:05  * FLHerne doesn't want to :-(
19:55:11  <Supercheese> then... don't
19:55:25  <Pinkbeast> I think the rationale is that ocean ships are too big for rivers, not that river ships are not ocean-going?
19:55:29  <Supercheese> the river ships are still inferior to ocean ships on the ocean
19:55:31  <FLHerne> But now I'm not forced not to, so I have to if it's better :-(
19:55:38  <andythenorth> eh?
19:55:45  <andythenorth> previously here's what happened:
19:55:46  <Pinkbeast> (Especially since the "ocean" in OTTD is lakes and coastal areas at best)
19:55:46  <Supercheese> it's not better as I said
19:55:57  <andythenorth> - river ships were slower on river than ocean ships
19:56:04  <andythenorth> - river ships were slower on ocean than river ships
19:56:10  <andythenorth> conclusion: don't use river ships, ever
19:56:19  <andythenorth> I could have rm-ed them if that would have been better
19:56:20  <Pinkbeast> Errr I think point 2 is confused
19:56:24  <FLHerne> The second one doesn't make sense :P
19:56:28  <andythenorth> oops
19:56:35  <andythenorth> - river ships were slower on ocean than ocean ships
19:56:39  <Supercheese> we know whatcha meant
19:57:06  <FLHerne> So make river ships very slow on ocean, and ocean ships infinitely slow in rivers? :P
19:57:19  <andythenorth> no because that's just crap and annoying
19:57:26  * FLHerne would like big tankers to be 0knots on rivers :P
19:57:30  <andythenorth> already ships are significantly crippled in game
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19:57:43  <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, it's fun and adds variety :-)
19:57:53  <Supercheese> I believe the source is available
19:57:54  <andythenorth> it's not fun to have ships in the buy menu you don't use
19:58:01  <andythenorth> it isn't variety, it's cruft
19:58:02  <Supercheese> although andy does have a... unique scheme to build FISH
19:58:05  <FLHerne> And would stop those huge tankers glitching so much :P
19:58:06  <Supercheese> ;)
19:58:17  <peter1138> giant map with loads of water
19:58:19  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Use them on rivers :P
19:58:20  <peter1138> == good for ships
19:58:29  <FLHerne> And the ocean ones on oceans :P
19:58:29  <andythenorth> FLHerne: why?  they make less money
19:58:34  <Supercheese> you can still likely figure the source out and edit it yourself
19:58:36  <andythenorth> why would you choose to do that?
19:58:46  <FLHerne> andythenorth: So? Money in OTTD isn't short usually
19:59:05  <FLHerne> I do that because I find it interesting, not because it makes profit :-)
19:59:17  <andythenorth> but that's not a game
19:59:19  <andythenorth> that's a train set
19:59:25  <andythenorth> I'm not making a train set
19:59:28  <andythenorth> I'm making a game ;)
19:59:51  <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's still a game, just not one about making profit :P
20:00:00  <andythenorth> FLHerne: checkout the repo
20:00:07  <andythenorth> edit src/FISH.cfg
20:00:11  <andythenorth> it's just a text file
20:00:20  <FLHerne> For me, it's about being able to transport everything on the map without massive backlogs or looking unrealistic :-)
20:00:35  <andythenorth> set sea_capable = False for river ships
20:00:36  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Would break MP though? :P
20:00:41  <andythenorth> ys
20:00:47  <FLHerne> Add a parameter :P
20:00:47  <andythenorth> or distribute your own version
20:01:08  <andythenorth> no
20:01:10  <FLHerne> 'river ships sea-capable' [yes|no] :-)
20:01:19  <andythenorth> parameters are for weak-minded people who can't make choices
20:01:28  <andythenorth> design involves choices
20:01:44  <FLHerne> No, they're for people who know that users will have differing wishes :P
20:01:59  <andythenorth> No, that's what the GPL is for
20:02:07  <FLHerne> If I want one thing, and someone else wants another, add both :P
20:02:48  <Pinkbeast> I do think there's a lot to be said for making shipping more viable
20:02:51  <FLHerne> But having two grfs on BaNaNaS identical but for a minor speed difference would be silly :P
20:03:06  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: It's very viable already :-)
20:03:16  <andythenorth> you can't win GS challenges with ships
20:03:17  <andythenorth> too slow
20:03:19  * FLHerne has about 30% of all cargo on ships :-)
20:03:32  <FLHerne> andythenorth: GS challenges are stupid :P
20:03:40  <andythenorth> hmm
20:03:40  <andythenorth> nope
20:03:46  <andythenorth> empirically, you are wrong
20:03:50  <FLHerne> They enforce arbitrary goals that stop you from having fun :-(
20:03:52  <Supercheese> Clearly there is a difference of opinion here
20:03:58  <Supercheese> to each their own playstyle
20:04:19  <FLHerne> I want to faff around with inefficient messes, not simply transport x pigs per annum :P
20:04:26  <andythenorth> you know a funny thing I found
20:04:37  <andythenorth> there's a man who is refusing to buy this new lego train
20:04:46  <andythenorth> because the windows are black, and on the real one they are dark grey
20:04:52  <andythenorth> and he is really very upset about it
20:04:55  <andythenorth> on the internet
20:05:04  <andythenorth> it has actually, as far as I can tell, ruined his week
20:05:17  <andythenorth> despite that nobody knew this train existed until Sunday
20:05:22  <FLHerne> It's LEGO! It's made of ANGULAR BLOCKS!
20:05:25  <andythenorth> and it's Lego and can be rebuilt
20:05:38  * FLHerne has lots of lego :-)
20:06:18  <andythenorth> also some of the 'fans' are very distressed by the included minifigs
20:06:45  *** KritiK [~Maxim@] has joined #openttd
20:07:10  <andythenorth> so what I conclude is: the internet is full of people who are wrong
20:07:35  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Seen XKCD on that?
20:07:38  <andythenorth> yes ;)
20:07:43  <andythenorth> also wtf shall I do about HEQS?
20:07:55  <Supercheese> you mean autorefit?
20:08:01  <andythenorth> no more generally
20:08:08  <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's mostly fine :-)
20:08:11  <andythenorth> it already has vehicles in different sizes, capacities, speeds etc
20:08:25  <andythenorth> frosch123: so your suggestion might be? ^
20:08:56  <Supercheese> HEQS is great, why does it need changes?
20:09:03  <FLHerne> Fix tram withdrawal dates, split trams by capacity, make all but crawlers autorefit. Do *something* with the rail GmundMog - rm if necessary :P
20:09:45  <Supercheese> there was an interesting suggestion of allowing autorefit in general but disallowing it with certain cargo subtype combinations
20:09:55  <Supercheese> not sure how that would work, callback wizardry likely
20:10:00  <andythenorth> that's all broken currently
20:10:05  <andythenorth> allows the creation of invalid orders
20:10:18  <FLHerne> Invalid orders aren't a problem
20:10:35  <andythenorth> yes they are
20:10:44  <FLHerne> They're only a problem if they're not preventable by common sense and/or RTM
20:10:46  <andythenorth> for the same reason as a broken button is a problem
20:10:54  <andythenorth> let's break some buttons :)
20:11:09  <andythenorth> actually, let's make orders non-determinstic
20:11:15  <FLHerne> It should be obvious that refitting from coal to milk won't work :P
20:11:17  <andythenorth> you set 'goto harpington'
20:11:18  <Supercheese> oy vey, here we go again
20:11:33  <andythenorth> but actually openttd decides 'goto shiningtown'
20:11:38  <andythenorth> it's not just analagous, it's identical
20:11:58  <andythenorth> it should be obvious that sometimes the game decides to send your vehicle to a different station
20:12:12  <andythenorth> we could have a dice roll
20:12:22  <andythenorth> in fact, we could actually have an enormous animated dice
20:12:31  <andythenorth> every time a vehicle moves to next order in list
20:12:41  <andythenorth> in the middle of the screen, with sound effects
20:12:51  <andythenorth> you have to click to get a 6
20:12:59  <andythenorth> if you don't get a 6, random order happens
20:13:16  <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, autorefit should be the same every time :P
20:13:26  <FLHerne> If it isn't you broke it :P
20:13:31  <andythenorth> e?
20:13:39  <FLHerne> That's assuming the same cargoes :P
20:13:43  <andythenorth> do you understand that autorefit is non-determinstic?
20:13:57  <FLHerne> You mean the auto-load-whatever bit?
20:14:08  <Supercheese> I'm referring to autorefit with fixed cargos specified
20:14:14  <Supercheese> not autorefit to whatever is available
20:14:26  <Supercheese> I can see how autorefit to whatever is problematic
20:14:38  <FLHerne> The refit-at-station bit is generally deterministic :P
20:14:47  <FLHerne> I use the other one a lot though :-)
20:14:56  <Supercheese> yeah, I suppose we need to definitively say that autorefit /= refit-at-station
20:15:01  <Supercheese> despite them being similar in the code
20:15:52  <Supercheese> and drop-down menu
20:16:00  <andythenorth> they are identical for newgrf
20:16:13  <Supercheese> yep, but conversational issues may arise
20:16:33  <Supercheese> "do you mean fixed-autorefit or autorefit-to-whatever?"
20:16:35  <Supercheese> :S
20:16:40  <andythenorth> it's irrelevant tbh
20:16:52  <Supercheese> w.r.t. coding issues yes
20:16:57  <andythenorth> I see your point :)
20:17:07  <FLHerne> One is predictable by the user, the other isn't :-)
20:17:18  <andythenorth> no
20:17:23  <andythenorth> neither are predictable by user
20:17:53  <FLHerne> With the former, you know which cargoes can be on the train
20:18:19  *** roadt [~roadt@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:18:48  <andythenorth> but you don't know if the newgrf will allow the refit
20:19:57  <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's called a manual :P
20:20:08  <FLHerne> Or common sense, if the developer is sane :-)
20:20:50  <andythenorth> so you can happily accept that two people might want different things in a newgrf (i.e. you propose parameters), but you think there's a single shared common sense?
20:21:03  <FLHerne> Again, manuals :P
20:21:25  <FLHerne> Or add parameters for refitting too, but that might be overkill ;-)
20:21:27  <andythenorth> yes, I definitely read the manual for my computer when I learned how to use it
20:21:32  <andythenorth> and for my phone
20:21:38  <andythenorth> and for Quake
20:21:44  <andythenorth> and for Dope Wars
20:21:49  <FLHerne> In that case, trial-and-error will do :P#
20:21:59  <andythenorth> and I certainly always read the manual before playing Mario Kart
20:22:25  <andythenorth> which grf should you read the manual for?
20:22:36  <andythenorth> as you don't even know what grf the vehicle belongs to
20:22:53  <FLHerne> Of course you do :P
20:23:04  <Supercheese> I fully expect people to read either the main forum thread of the readme for my grfs; their contents are roughly the same
20:23:07  <FLHerne> Who doesn't know which grf their vehicles are from?
20:23:10  <Supercheese> or the readme*
20:23:29  * andythenorth expects nobody to read anything
20:23:41  <andythenorth> there are about 25k active downloaders of grfs on bananas at my guess
20:23:48  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's silly
20:24:05  <andythenorth> most of those 25k probably cycle through the game quite fast
20:24:13  <FLHerne> Just ignore people who can't be bothered to either read or trial-and-error :P
20:24:16  <andythenorth> and most have no idea tt-forums etc exists
20:24:23  <andythenorth> I don't get the trial-and-error point
20:24:29  <andythenorth> how does that work?
20:24:30  <FLHerne> Ingame readme-viewer now ;-)
20:24:45  <andythenorth> readme for which grf though?
20:24:57  <andythenorth> we suspect that a majority of players simply load all grfs from banananas
20:25:11  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Try refitting x to y -> does that work? -> Do/don't do that again ;-)
20:25:21  <andythenorth> how do you know if it works?
20:25:24  <andythenorth> there's zero feedback
20:25:28  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That's simply not true :P
20:25:36  <andythenorth> you have to watch the orders
20:25:43  <FLHerne> andythenorth: If it fills up with cargo, it works :-)
20:25:46  <andythenorth> orders / refit /s
20:25:57  <FLHerne> If it fills up with a different cargo, it doesn't :P
20:26:06  <andythenorth> ok, so do you have all the info windows open for all vehicles all the time?
20:26:14  <andythenorth> how big is your screen? :o
20:26:39  <FLHerne> If I were experimenting to see which refits worked, I'd do it in an organised manner :P
20:27:00  <FLHerne> As in, one refit at a time, check if it works, do it again :-)
20:27:19  <andythenorth> that is a quick way to lose in a GS game :o
20:27:28  <FLHerne> I'd rather just read the readme though ;-)
20:27:44  <andythenorth> what about when you share orders between different vehicle types?
20:27:50  <FLHerne> Once you know, it's no longer necessary to do it a second time :P
20:28:16  <Supercheese> shared orders between different vehicle types? Is that... legal?
20:28:18  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Make sure that both vehicle types support the cargoes you're using?
20:28:27  <FLHerne> Supercheese: Of course :-)
20:28:37  *** tycoondemon [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:28:43  <Supercheese> Hmm, never done that, or at least not enough that I recall
20:28:44  <FLHerne> I really don't see the big deal here
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20:28:57  <Supercheese> seems like it could lead to problems
20:29:03  <andythenorth> Supercheese: it's common
20:29:14  * Supercheese prefers uniformity
20:29:27  <andythenorth> shared orders between different types is entirely supported, bar autorefit
20:29:30  <Supercheese> but to each their own
20:29:45  <andythenorth> Supercheese: what about when you're upgrading?
20:30:08  <andythenorth> you send them all vehicles with shared orders to depot, sell them, then build new ones?
20:30:24  <FLHerne> andythenorth; It's supported with autorefit too :-)
20:30:38  <Supercheese> autoreplace within groups
20:30:49  <Supercheese> s'what I most often do, or global autoreplace
20:30:59  <andythenorth> so no shared orders?
20:31:01  <FLHerne> Supercheese: You still get mixed groups while doing that :P
20:31:10  <Supercheese> yes, but not on purpose :P
20:31:13  <FLHerne> s/groups/order groups/
20:31:38  <Supercheese> I use shared orders all over the place, but each vehicle is identical
20:31:47  <FLHerne> How is it less supported by autorefit than anything else?
20:31:53  <Supercheese> but I digress
20:32:03  <Supercheese> and am not explaining things well either :P
20:32:52  <FLHerne> When doing it normally, you have to check both carry the same cargoes where relevant; autorefit is the same but you have to check they can both be autorefitted appropriately too
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20:37:38  <Eddi|zuHause> uhoh... i'm afraid to read the backlog with so much andythenorth in it... :)
20:37:43  <andythenorth> ho ho
20:37:50  <andythenorth> you didn't miss anything
20:37:51  <Supercheese> trolololo
20:37:53  <andythenorth> can I summarise?
20:37:56  <andythenorth> [....]
20:38:14  <andythenorth> you probably had a better time doing whatever you were doing ;)
20:38:24  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: andy wants to move the rail vehicles from heqs to fish or so
20:38:48  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds totally like something andythenorth would do :p
20:39:12  <andythenorth> ho
20:39:15  <andythenorth> what a nice idea :)
20:39:23  <frosch123> :p
20:39:30  <andythenorth> frosch123: I'll make sure I credit you with that
20:39:31  <andythenorth> twice
20:40:27  <frosch123> people already hate me enough :)
20:41:54  <Supercheese> hmm the OTTD commit rss appears to have died for me
20:42:13  <frosch123> did it run via cia?
20:42:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: CIA is dead
20:42:17  <Supercheese> yeah
20:42:19  <Supercheese> ah
20:42:21  <Supercheese> that would do it
20:42:34  <Supercheese> what happen? some one set up it the bomb?
20:42:39  <Eddi|zuHause> dead as in won't ever come back alive
20:42:45  <andythenorth> frosch123: I strongly suspect nobody hates you - but nvm :)
20:43:19  <frosch123> <- they still hope
20:43:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: damn, now i have some bad 8-bit sound in my head :p
20:43:33  <frosch123> <- Supercheese: if you want to be a hip kid
20:43:42  <Supercheese> oooh
20:43:44  <Supercheese> shiny
20:44:07  <frosch123> no idea who runs it :)
20:44:56  <Eddi|zuHause> well, has a big "rss feed" button at the bottom
20:45:38  <frosch123> also in the address bar :p
20:46:40  <frosch123> "Rekuto, ein bisschen wie Sikaku" <- i love such summaries
20:47:42  <Eddi|zuHause> that is totally descriptive
20:49:32  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: wrt autorefit, the evidence from the forum poll doesn't fit my hypothesis :(
20:49:38  <andythenorth> what kind of poll is that? :P
20:50:15  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you don't have the cognitive dissonance of a professional politician yet
20:50:37  <andythenorth> I am capable of that kind of delusion
20:50:43  <andythenorth> I just choose not to do it :P
20:52:06  <andythenorth> here's an idea
20:52:16  <andythenorth> trigger a message if an autorefit isn't allowed
20:52:18  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Your hypothesis was misaligned with reality :D
20:52:22  <andythenorth> currently fails silently
20:52:29  <FLHerne> andythenorth: That would fix it :-)
20:52:38  <FLHerne> For explicit instructions, anyway
20:53:45  <andythenorth> frosch123 option to fail cb 15E, but with a string in return value?
20:54:23  <andythenorth> doesn't fix the subtypes mess, but puts a plaster over autorefit
20:54:39  <frosch123> where would the text be shown?
20:56:02  <andythenorth> one of those red error boxes
20:56:18  <andythenorth> similar to trying to route an articulated rv to a drive-in stop
20:56:48  <andythenorth> hmm
20:56:57  <andythenorth> there is no error when trying to route an articulated rv to a drive-in stop :P
20:57:16  <Supercheese> isn't there?
20:57:26  <andythenorth> my mistake - bus vs truck stop
20:57:32  <frosch123> andythenorth: autorefit happens in stations without user interaction
20:57:41  <andythenorth> so trigger the error then too ;)
20:57:45  <frosch123> you could issue news item, like for failed autoreplace
20:57:48  <andythenorth> yes
20:57:51  <frosch123> but i think that might be annoying
20:57:51  <andythenorth> or lost vehicle
20:58:07  <andythenorth> more or less annoying than invalid orders? :)
20:58:20  <frosch123> what kind of invalid orders?
20:58:28  <andythenorth> orders that can't be fulfilled
20:58:36  <frosch123> like?
20:59:04  <andythenorth> refit to A from B, but cb 15E doesn't allow it
20:59:35  <frosch123> also in case of "refit to available"?
21:00:00  <andythenorth> how does "refit to available" handle cb 15E result?
21:00:05  <andythenorth> presumably sanely?
21:00:18  <frosch123> it restricts the refit options i hope
21:00:24  <andythenorth> the docs on refitting at stations maybe could be expanded
21:00:31  <andythenorth> if I understood how it worked, I'd add to them
21:00:49  <andythenorth> I refer to all use of cb15E as 'autorefit'
21:00:59  <andythenorth> whether it's explicit or 'refit available'
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21:01:17  <andythenorth> maybe I'm just confused about how it works, and all is well? o_O
21:01:44  <frosch123> well, for explicit refit to specifc cargo, a newsitem might make sense
21:02:19  <Supercheese> Hmm, some inflation-related fixing happening in recent commits?
21:02:39  <frosch123> yes
21:02:43  <frosch123> something broken?
21:02:54  <Supercheese> no, just glad to see some work on that
21:03:07  <Supercheese> since the general response has been "turn inflation off" for quite some time
21:03:22  <frosch123> then you misunderstood what has been changed :p
21:03:25  <Yexo> that's still the general response :)
21:03:35  <Yexo> the only thing that was fixed was an overflow causing negative prices
21:03:42  <Supercheese> oh hmm
21:03:53  <Supercheese> thought I saw a reference to MAX_INFLACTION
21:03:57  <Supercheese> typo
21:03:58  <Supercheese> derp
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21:04:04  <Supercheese> INFLATION*
21:04:44  <Supercheese> guess that's been around already?
21:04:53  * Supercheese hasn't really looked at the code
21:06:55  <andythenorth> randomise all the things
21:07:01  <andythenorth> randomise inflation!
21:07:10  <andythenorth> real life does it
21:08:35  <andythenorth> frosch123: do you seriously want randomised vehicle properties per game?
21:08:40  <andythenorth> I have seriously considered it before
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21:09:36  <frosch123> it likely depends on how much they are randomised
21:09:44  <frosch123> it should not be silly
21:10:06  <frosch123> i.e. capacity needs to have some relation to sprite size, and should not be randomised by factor 10
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21:10:31  <frosch123> but some randomness would be nice
21:11:13  <frosch123> per-model randomness, not per-vehicle :)
21:11:48  <andythenorth> cost and running cost are obvious candidates
21:11:54  <andythenorth> reliability the game already does
21:12:00  <andythenorth> capacity...interesting :P
21:12:02  <andythenorth> speed - maybe
21:12:36  <andythenorth> power - maybe
21:12:51  <andythenorth> cb36 misses model life :P
21:12:55  <andythenorth> probably for good reasons
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21:14:04  <andythenorth> I could add it to FISH 2 and test it
21:14:21  <frosch123> remains the question how to randomise :p
21:14:23  <andythenorth> how much randomisation?  vary 25% capacity either way?
21:14:25  <frosch123> via parameter?
21:14:31  <andythenorth> parameter for on / off
21:14:41  <frosch123> well, you need some random number :p
21:14:55  <frosch123> currently user would have to set one via parameters
21:14:57  <frosch123> e.g. 4
21:15:19  <andythenorth> there's no random bits available in buy menu?
21:15:26  <frosch123> nope
21:15:29  <andythenorth> ugh
21:15:33  <andythenorth> that makes it harder :)
21:15:38  <frosch123> randomb bits are always per vehicle
21:15:40  <frosch123> not per model
21:15:48  <andythenorth> get something off the map?
21:15:57  <andythenorth> number of towns :P
21:16:01  <andythenorth> population of first town
21:16:15  <andythenorth> probably not in scope
21:16:35  <frosch123> you can use the company colour :p
21:16:38  <andythenorth> he
21:17:02  <andythenorth> so each company colour would provide a different schema for randomising :P
21:17:35  <andythenorth> so if I write an nml random switch in buy menu chain, does it just fail?
21:17:53  <andythenorth> or is it always default result or such?
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21:18:00  <frosch123> i think var43 is your best choice for now
21:18:16  <frosch123> it's available in purchase list as well
21:18:23  <frosch123> just, it changes when you switch colours
21:18:36  <frosch123> (i would not mind ifferent stats for different conpanies)
21:18:46  <andythenorth> that's plausible
21:19:41  * andythenorth likes this idea
21:19:46  <andythenorth> it is silly, which is nice
21:20:31  * andythenorth had better sleep
21:20:32  <andythenorth> bye
21:20:35  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
21:21:00  <frosch123> capacity changes on company colour likely desync though :p
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21:24:29  <frosch123> night
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21:41:11  <Terkhen> good night
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21:55:20  <Wolf01> 'night all
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