Log for #openttd on 7th October 2012:
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06:15:13  <andythenorth> 101 FIRS commits until r3k
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07:50:55  <Rubidium> @base 10 16 2437
07:50:55  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 985
07:51:24  <Rubidium> @base 16 10 a28
07:51:24  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 2600
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08:02:02  <Rubidium> @base 16 10 10e4
08:02:02  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 4324
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08:04:26  <Wolf01> 'morning
08:19:16  <Rubidium> @base 10 16 2633
08:19:16  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: A49
08:19:20  <Rubidium> moin Wolf01
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08:44:36  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:51:59  <Alberth> moin
08:52:05  <andythenorth> hi hi
08:57:24  <Alberth> nothing useful at the forum today :(
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08:59:03  <andythenorth> standard
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10:27:17  <nicoco> hello ! i can't find where do i see if i effectively managed to get subsidies and how much i am earning from them
10:28:36  <Eddi|zuHause> nicoco: there's a list of all open and awarded subsidies (i think when you click and hold the city list icon)
10:28:58  <Terkhen> hi nicoco
10:29:23  <Eddi|zuHause> nicoco: also when you get awarded a subsidy, there is a news item
10:30:14  <nicoco> ho ok that means i never managed to get one :(
10:30:32  <nicoco> any idea what i might doing wrong ?
10:30:37  <Terkhen> subsidies have their own icon, the one at the left of the station buttons
10:31:37  <Terkhen> nicoco: subsidies are awarded as soon as you deliver a single unit of the subsidy cargo type from the origin to the destination before a year passes
10:32:12  <nicoco> are they usually worth the trouble ? is there a way to see how much they are ?
10:33:06  <Eddi|zuHause> nicoco: the difficulty settings say how much the price increases
10:33:11  <Terkhen> nicoco: the amount of money they give is determined by a difficulty option
10:33:17  <Eddi|zuHause> 50% more, double or triple
10:33:19  <Alberth> and they last a year
10:34:11  <Alberth> it can be fun to follow them, or when you are short on cash, but in general with standard openttd, it is easy to get money
10:34:20  <nicoco> ok thanks a lot ! i'll try right now
10:35:32  <Alberth> town subsidies need to have the station close the centre of the town to get awarded
10:37:47  <Leto`> I never bother with them ;)-
10:39:41  <nicoco> oops i don't know what i've doned but in my new game train construction is greyed, along with bus stations and warehouse... i can only build roads ! what did i do
10:40:22  <Alberth> what year do you play?
10:40:43  <Alberth> and with what vehicle NewGRFs?
10:40:43  <nicoco> ho right
10:40:53  <nicoco> i changed that without noticing
10:41:10  <Alberth> you're not awake then, it seems :)
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10:48:42  <Alberth> quak
10:48:56  <frosch123> moin :)
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11:39:44  <andythenorth>
11:39:50  <andythenorth> ^ how can I get ground to show snow?
11:40:13  <andythenorth> other than drawing it attached to the building sprite, which isn't correct
11:41:32  <andythenorth> hmm
11:41:47  <andythenorth> looking at other industries, drawing the snow attached to the building is correct
11:41:51  <andythenorth> how odd
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11:49:43  <Alberth> I added several snowy issues to opengfx bug tracker, there seem 2 left, antenna and stations
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12:00:02  <dada_> I wonder if it would be a nice idea to start a little project to fix up the original gfx and fill in the gaps where they exist
12:00:13  <dada_> if you use the original graphics now it tells you some things are missing
12:00:39  <frosch123> they you misinstalled ottd
12:00:46  <frosch123> openttd.grf contains all those graphics
12:01:10  <frosch123> make sure to not mix openttd.grf with different installations
12:01:22  <dada_> I need to get that from the opengfx, right?
12:01:32  <frosch123> no, it's in the ottd bundle
12:01:56  <dada_> weird, I got the regular 1.2.2 binary and I don't seem to have it. I do have openttdd.grf and openttdw.grf though
12:02:18  <frosch123> those are files from pre 1.0
12:02:29  <dada_> let me recheck
12:02:39  <frosch123> don't mix the openttd*.grf from various installations :)
12:02:47  <dada_> OK yeah, I see
12:02:58  <dada_> however, I don't see openttd.grf with the regular 1.2.2 binary, just downloaded a fresh one
12:03:17  <dada_> I'm on OSX, maybe it's in the windows version
12:03:42  <dada_> yep
12:03:50  <dada_> appears that osx binary zip is missing the file
12:04:24  <dada_> both the "baseset" and "ai" dirs are missing
12:05:13  <frosch123> its in Contents/Resources/baseset
12:05:21  <dada_> I see
12:05:40  <dada_> that makes sense
12:06:06  <frosch123> no idea where to put them, irc there was no installer for osx
12:07:30  <Zuu> Shouldn't readme section 4.2 answer that question?
12:07:38  <Zuu> Just make sure to not put them at a shared location.
12:07:48  <Zuu> Eg. at a location that is only searched by that specific install.
12:09:11  <frosch123> well, it only says "The application bundle (Mac OSX only)"
12:09:15  <frosch123> no path or anything :)
12:09:24  <andythenorth> does anyone understand why FIRS has to have snow drawn into the building sprites?
12:09:30  <andythenorth> instead of using a snow ground tile?
12:09:54  <frosch123> is there a default concrete tile with snow?
12:10:39  <dada_> It seems that the OSX package file contains the default files and you can override by making your own dirs in the main openttd dir
12:10:44  <dada_> that seems like a nice, commonsense way to do it to me
12:10:51  <frosch123> anyway, if you want to make the snow building aware, you might need to put it in the building sprite anyway
12:10:59  <frosch123> e.g. snow piles next to the buildings
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12:11:33  <dada_> the opengfx river riles work quite nice with the original graphics
12:11:37  <frosch123> dada_: there are shared installation directories, and installation directores
12:12:03  <frosch123> you should put the version dependant files such as *.lng and openttd.grf in the installation directories
12:12:12  <frosch123> and other stuff which works for all in the shared dirs
12:12:25  <frosch123> but, yeah, see readme.txt :)
12:12:55  <andythenorth> FIRS is confusing :)
12:13:08  <dada_> yeah, the only files I put there are the original gfx, so that should be fine
12:13:16  <andythenorth> some industries use a snow ground tile
12:13:21  <andythenorth> some can't
12:14:45  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24576 trunk/src/waypoint_gui.cpp (2012-10-07 12:14:39 UTC)
12:14:46  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5319] (r24260): Vehicle list at buoys did no longer work. (Juanjo)
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12:23:05  <andythenorth> meh
12:23:22  <andythenorth> I can't think of a way to sort out FIRS sprites other than recoding it from scratch
12:23:26  <andythenorth> that's dumb :P
12:24:51  <frosch123> is there a firs version for p1sim?
12:25:13  <Alberth> it has its own industries :p
12:25:43  <Alberth>
12:25:44  <Eddi|zuHause> is there a p1sim? :p
12:26:38  <frosch123> hmm, forklifts
12:26:53  <frosch123> maybe there should be an mmo around transportations
12:27:02  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause:  assuming he does more than making nice pictures, I'd say yes :)
12:27:03  <frosch123> every player gets a truck or a forklift
12:27:44  <frosch123> "choose your character" -> "forklift" :)
12:27:48  <andythenorth> forklifts are better weapons
12:27:50  <Alberth> rofl
12:28:07  <Eddi|zuHause> it can't be a weapon
12:28:24  <Alberth> not of mass-destruction, no :)
12:28:32  <Eddi|zuHause> because "weapon" is defined as "specifically invented to do damage". everything else is just "dangerous object"
12:28:59  <andythenorth>
12:29:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why throwing a stone or an empty bottle at a policeman is a different offense than throwing a bottle filled with water at him
12:30:48  <Alberth> bottles are invented to do damage? :o
12:30:53  <Eddi|zuHause> no
12:31:05  <Eddi|zuHause> but filling a bottle with water to do more damage
12:31:35  <Rubidium> then use aqua regina ;)
12:31:36  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: are you sure you get away with saying you only wanted to give him a drink?
12:31:37  <Alberth> right, just use an unopened bottle then :p
12:31:50  <Eddi|zuHause> that may be hard to prove in court :p
12:33:02  <frosch123> hmm, is the p1sim forum moderated in some way?
12:33:13  <frosch123> all topics were started by p1sim
12:33:23  <frosch123> i would have expected a ton of suggestion topics
12:33:35  <frosch123> s/p1sim/smallfly/
12:35:19  <Pinkbeast> How many people seriously suppose it's ever going to happen?
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12:35:53  <frosch123> it's already going for 3 years
12:36:07  <frosch123> that is significantly longer than i would have expected when it was started
12:36:41  <Rubidium> it looks like dbset since the demise of ttdp
12:36:45  <Pinkbeast> On the other hand it's going for 3 years and has just about nicked the surface of the spec
12:37:59  <andythenorth> forklifts pre 1950s?
12:38:01  <andythenorth> hmm
12:38:12  <andythenorth> the early game is over-rated anyway
12:42:03  <Alberth> frosch123: maybe smallfly has moderator rights there, but I think nobody but him has created a topic there, mostly he shows new things he is doing and people react on it
12:42:16  * andythenorth can't find any weaponised forklifts
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12:57:06  <Alberth> andythenorth:  ??   it seems to mis one of the forks, but it's very weaponized :p
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13:02:06  <andythenorth> Alberth: wonder how much it can lift :P
13:05:22  <Alberth> a lot probably, it stays on-target while the vehicle moves up and down, which needs a powerful motor, and some electronics :)
13:05:49  <Alberth> the main question may be   how much is still standing after it arrived :p
13:07:21  <andythenorth> Alberth: better version
13:08:18  <Alberth> quite :)
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14:26:05  <NGC3982> I'm on the busiest train in Sweden.
14:26:20  <NGC3982> And I notice why.
14:28:35  <NGC3982> Feels like I'm in India or something.
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14:33:52  <__ln__> Why don't they fly?
14:36:35  <Rubidium> you're on the roof?
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14:43:37  <NGC3982> plane tickets are vastly more expensive per distance around here.
14:43:46  <NGC3982> Plane*
14:49:28  <Rubidium> NGC3982: what percentage of passengers is standing?
14:55:45  <NGC3982> 50, perhaps
14:56:11  <Rubidium> peanuts ;)
14:56:28  * Rubidium has been in a train where near 100% were standing
14:56:45  <NGC3982> Indeed, but not for Sweden.
14:57:07  <Eddi|zuHause> there were no seats in the train?
14:57:36  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: there were, but weren't ;)
14:57:43  <Rubidium> yay for Japanese efficiency
14:58:23  <Rubidium> during rush hour most seats are folded up
14:59:12  <NGC3982> I guess they don't commute longer distances.
14:59:56  <NGC3982> I don't mind rush hour commuting when the time on the train is short.
15:00:21  <Eddi|zuHause> studies have shown that people do not commute "distances", but they commute "times". historically, the faster the connections got, the further people travelled. the travel time stayed fairly constant
15:00:39  <NGC3982> This is a two hour trip.
15:01:56  <Eddi|zuHause> "commute" being the daily travel from home to work
15:02:32  <NGC3982> That's interesting
15:03:43  <NGC3982> Though, it's not just a matter of commuting being cheaper over greater distances?
15:04:26  <Rubidium> NGC3982: that's not far off from the average Japanese commute
15:04:58  <Eddi|zuHause> two hours sounds fairly long
15:04:58  <NGC3982> Rubidium:  I see.
15:05:09  <Eddi|zuHause> in europe it's around 45 minutes
15:05:18  <Eddi|zuHause> in the USA a bit longer
15:06:18  <Eddi|zuHause> (one may wonder whether that is a cause or an effect of the us-style suburbanisation)
15:06:19  <NGC3982> I commute every day, with a seventeen minute bus ride
15:07:00  <NGC3982> I'm not even changing town, so I guess I'm on the limit of actually commuting
15:07:06  <Eddi|zuHause> my commute is ~20 minutes by car or ~50 minutes by bus
15:08:06  <Eddi|zuHause> for a while i had to commute 40 minutes by car or 2 hours by bus/train
15:08:22  <Eddi|zuHause> and 2 hours is definitely beyond being practical
15:08:56  <Rubidium> ~17 minutes by train, ~30 minutes by bus, ~20 minutes by bike
15:09:09  <Alberth> ~40 minutes walking :p
15:09:43  <Rubidium> and ~20 minutes by car
15:09:59  <NGC3982> I can hardly see two hour commuting being economical too
15:10:07  <NGC3982> BT least around here
15:11:32  <NGC3982> lets say I would commute this distance every day. VÀxjö > Malmö 30 day commuting pass costs 3200 kronor
15:12:38  <NGC3982> About 480 US dollars.
15:13:42  <NGC3982> That's equivalent to the rent of a smaller apartment.
15:13:50  <NGC3982> :E
15:15:11  <Rubidium> many (mostly) male Japanese have a wife and kids in 'the country' and work in the city where they sleep in capsule hotels:
15:17:02  <NGC3982> As a , swedeI would say that the Japanese worker lifestyle is a bit too sacrificing.
15:18:14  <NGC3982> Sure, the respect for hard work is admirable, but that's just too much
15:18:33  <Rubidium> living in Tokyo is extremely expensive
15:18:35  <NGC3982> As a swede *
15:18:40  <Rubidium> or at least housing
15:21:24  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so they are weekend-commuters?
15:21:40  <Rubidium> Japan even has (or had?) the busiest airline connection; over 50 flights per direction per day between Tokyo and Sapporo
15:22:35  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: i know people who commute Magdeburg-Hannover, because in Magdeburg the rents are sooo much lower
15:22:37  <Rubidium> those are, but before you are really out of Tokyo you're a few hours further ;)
15:23:26  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause:  I see. What distances?
15:24:01  <Rubidium> 150k?
15:24:17  <NGC3982> Christ.
15:24:34  <Rubidium> hmm, that's 15m in Sweden, right?
15:25:01  <Eddi|zuHause> scandinavian miles are 10km, i once read
15:25:16  <NGC3982> The job better be great.
15:25:17  <NGC3982> That's like four hours of commuting a day.
15:25:26  <Eddi|zuHause> 150km isn't that bad because it's mostly autobahn
15:25:39  <NGC3982> And not much of a life.
15:25:47  <Eddi|zuHause> which means it's 1:30 or something
15:26:05  <NGC3982> Oh, well.
15:27:37  <NGC3982> I guess that's not that bad
15:27:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say it's borderline
15:27:59  <Rubidium> apparantly only 4.000 EUR/year for a train ticket, whereas DB says almost 18.000 EUR/year for a car
15:28:08  <NGC3982> Though, I've had my share of commuting.
15:28:18  <Kylie> 4.000 = ?
15:28:21  <Kylie> 4,000 ?
15:28:43  <NGC3982> I used to commute about sixty kilometers per day.
15:28:46  <Rubidium> s/\./ /
15:29:01  <NGC3982> And I almost went crazy.
15:29:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i had to read Kylie's question 5 times and didn't get it until Rubidium's answer
15:29:51  <Eddi|zuHause> of course 4000 = 4000... what kind of question is that? :p
15:30:32  <NGC3982> half past three in the morning, junk ass car with no heater, and it was the worst winter since the late 1980's
15:30:51  <NGC3982> Worst days of my life.
15:31:08  <Eddi|zuHause> how can a car not have heating?
15:31:09  <Kylie> Eddi|zuHause: i only have seen 4,000 for 4000 so i saw 4.000 as 4.0 like the number 4
15:31:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean the engine's heat must go somewhere, might as well direct it into the car
15:31:56  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Really, really broken.
15:32:36  <NGC3982> The job was hell, and that didn't help.
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15:48:37  <Zuu_> Eddi|zuHause: Thanks, I was tempted to suggest that he took a better look at the commit log, but your post is better. :-)
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15:51:37  <Zuu_> Regarding 4000 euro for train ticket, IIRC a yearly ticket for SJ is about the same amount and it give you unlimited of trips.
15:52:05  <Zuu_> (SJ was the swedish equivalent to DB)
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15:52:44  <Zuu_> IIRC they made a limitation that you can only make seat reservations for one train at the time, but that is about it.
15:54:24  <Eddi|zuHause> afair a BahnCard 100 cost 400€ per month (means you can use all trains in germany free of charge)
15:56:01  <Zuu_> So about the same cost then.
15:56:37  <Eddi|zuHause> there's also a BahnCard 50 giving you 50% off the normal price, and a BahnCard 25 giving you 25% off the normal price or 25% off the special prices (if you reserve more than 3 days ahead, etc.)
15:57:42  <Eddi|zuHause>
15:57:50  <Zuu_> I doubt many people do it, but its an interesting fact that for some of our metropolitan areas its cheaper to buy a such card and then take the evening train in the afternoon and return with the night trains than having an apartment in the city. :-)
15:58:38  <Eddi|zuHause> night trains might have extra charge
15:59:15  <Eddi|zuHause> one of the cool parts about BahnCard 100 is that it is also valid in tram/bus systems in select cities
16:00:11  <Zuu_> Thats indeed useful. Especially if you also have the same mess with incompatible cards in each region.
16:00:41  <Zuu_> If you want to pay local public transport in Sweden by card you need about 10 different cards in your wallet.
16:01:18  <Zuu_> Each with deposit that you have no clue how much is left on the card.
16:01:39  <Eddi|zuHause> you can also book that option with normal (long distance) tickets, for the day of the travel
16:01:56  <Zuu_> Great
16:02:21  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's difficult to get that on the way to the station
16:03:03  <Zuu_> oh yes, if you need a physical ticket which you get at the station.
16:04:20  <Zuu_> One of the more interesting thing about SMS tickets here is that your phone must be a swedish registred phone. So all tourists are essentially blocked from using it.
16:04:55  <Eddi|zuHause> last i heard was they want to enable online tickets to be valid on the way to the station, but they will have trouble proving the authencity of the ticket
16:05:41  <Eddi|zuHause> because the local conductors won't have the same devices to check whether the ticket is valid than a train conductor would
16:06:46  <Zuu_> couldn't you get a local sms ticket if that is available in the community?
16:07:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that would return you to the problem of having a different system in each city
16:09:35  <Zuu_> Yes, although that would be handled by DB transparently for the passenger.
16:10:01  <Zuu_> The passenger doesn't need to know that DB needs different APIs to talk with the different systems.
16:10:14  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently you need at least a BahnCard 25 to get the "City Ticket", and that ticket is valid at the destination city only (but both on the day of the trip and on the day of the return trip)
16:10:45  <Eddi|zuHause> and the distance between the cities must be over 100km
16:12:02  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- and these are the valid cities
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16:19:58  <NGC3982> Did Zuu leave?
16:20:24  <NGC3982> That thing with the bus cards is not entirely true
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16:24:13  <NGC3982> At least not in good time. For instance, the LÀnstrafiken cards can be used with both deposit and free trips per specific number of days. There cards can be used throughout Skåne and Småland without changing anything .
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16:25:30  <Zuu__> NGC3982: I'm back. Had to restart my proxy connection.
16:27:10  <Zuu__>  NGC3982 With the old magnet cards, you could use the Skåne cards in probably half of Götaland.
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16:27:45  <Zuu__> Not sure if the forging county got paid, but it was technically possible to use a card with deposit from eg. Skåne in NÀrke.
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16:29:38  <Zuu_> When the new cards was introduced they had the ambition to make a national system for regional travel payment. However, each county added extra features not in the national spec, so there we go.. :-)
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16:33:00  <Zuu_> On their website they now claim that each county will develop their own system and that they will try to unify them afterwards, which I bet will be hard to accomplish.
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17:06:48  <jose> Hi, i think i have a noob question... When i create a world, the rails are deactivated(grey??)... How can i build them anyway?
17:07:29  <frosch123> they become available when an locomotive becomes available
17:07:35  <frosch123> you probably started the game too early
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17:19:50  <jose> I o.O
17:19:55  *** Zuu__ is now known as Zuu_
17:20:01  <jose> started too early?
17:20:43  <Yexo> in the statusbar at the bottom you can see the current game year
17:20:46  <Yexo> what is it?
17:21:45  <jose> aah
17:22:04  <jose> lol. just chose 1900-.-
17:22:17  <Yexo> without any newgrfs there are no vehicles available at that date
17:22:34  <jose> mmh what's the earliest date?
17:22:53  <Yexo> 1930 is reasonable safe
17:23:00  <jose> ok, thanks
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18:00:51  <NGC3982> Bah.
18:01:01  <NGC3982> I love going on trains when they are empty
18:01:05  <NGC3982> Or at least not full
18:01:24  <NGC3982> The trip i had today was crappy and tedious.
18:03:25  <NGC3982> Zuu_: The LÀnstrafiken cards can be used in all of SmÃ¥land (local bus/train traffic (Krösa, Östgötapendel, JLF)), SkÃ¥ne (at least the local bus traffic, Ö-tÃ¥g, JoJo and such), and the latter should include NÀrke and all that ..crap.
18:04:27  <NGC3982> Zuu_: For pure experimentation, i have traveled 91 metric miles with the same card.
18:05:41  * Rubidium wonders who actually uses metric miles
18:06:01  <NGC3982> (Ok, not that pure, i actually had to travel the distances.
18:06:02  <NGC3982> )
18:06:27  <__ln__> I guess swedes do. They also use hectograms.
18:07:08  <NGC3982> Let me explain:
18:07:10  <NGC3982> "The United States is the only industrialized country that does not use the metric system as its official system of measurement"
18:07:13  <NGC3982> ;-)
18:07:33  <NGC3982> Although, i guess the metric mile part is a scandinavian thing.
18:08:01  <Rubidium> Metric mile is a distance which approximates one statute mile (1609.344 m) at a round figure of metres (the SI or metric unit of length). <- i.e. it is 1600 or 1500m
18:08:08  <NGC3982> I see.
18:08:12  <NGC3982> I was using it incorrectly.
18:08:31  <NGC3982> The raw translation of "Metrisk mil" is metric mile, but it does not seem to mean the same thing.
18:08:38  <NGC3982> "En mil" > 10km
18:10:11  <__ln__> I don't know if Danes or Norwegians use it, but Finns certainly don't.
18:12:05  <Zuu_> NGC3982: is a metric mile the 10 km nordic miles?
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18:12:34  <NGC3982> Don't take it from me, a metric mile seems to be something else.
18:12:44  <NGC3982> I guess the "nordic mile" is what im talking about
18:12:47  <NGC3982> the 10km one. ;)
18:13:03  <NGC3982> __ln__: What is used instead of hectograms?
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18:14:45  <__ln__> Grams or kilograms.
18:15:21  <NGC3982> No hectogram baking spoons? :>
18:15:29  <NGC3982> Since, that's kind of the only time we use hectograms
18:15:38  <NGC3982> And when to determine prices on lösgodis.
18:17:07  <__ln__> Also for prices of vegetables or fruit. I've witnessed it in Skåne.
18:17:28  <NGC3982> Well, that's Skåne for you.
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18:18:42  <__ln__> I think I've also seen something like "1 hg" printed on a factory-made godispåse outside of Skåne.
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18:18:56  <Zuu_> Anyway, going 91 * 10 km on local trains/buses (with connections I assume) as one trip is insane :-)
18:19:03  <NGC3982> Yes, for some reason it's very usual when handling candy.
18:19:09  <NGC3982> As said, lösgodis.
18:19:23  <NGC3982>
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18:21:26  <__ln__> Oh, pardon all my non-English; 'Skåne' is actuall 'Scania' in English.
18:21:30  <__ln__> +y
18:21:36  <NGC3982> You should say Skåne
18:21:43  <NGC3982> Since Scania is something else.
18:22:53  <Zuu_> Given the off-topicness tonight it is quite clear that __ln__ isn't talking about trucks.
18:22:59  <NGC3982> Hehe
18:23:00  <NGC3982> Well
18:23:18  <NGC3982> I have actually been in a situation before, where people think im talking about work and not where im from.
18:23:39  <NGC3982> That said, one out of ten thousand swedes know that Skåne = Scania
18:24:22  <Zuu_> I think it is far more known.
18:24:31  <Rubidium> even I know it
18:24:43  <Rubidium> and I'm not even a Swede
18:24:45  <NGC3982> Believe me, i have tried it.
18:24:49  <NGC3982> Yes, of course
18:25:08  <NGC3982> I'd bet you a nickel that more non-swedes know about it, then actual swedes.
18:25:33  <Kjetil> why would you bet a nickel ?
18:25:38  <Kjetil> why not a cent ?
18:26:10  * NGC3982 hits the great autism gong-gong.
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18:26:56  <Kjetil> Or do you still have öre in sweden ?
18:27:11  <NGC3982> No, we don't.
18:27:13  <Zuu_> Yes and no
18:27:22  <NGC3982> Yes?
18:27:27  <Zuu_> All öre coins are invalid
18:27:47  <NGC3982> If you are refering to the marketing of .98 öre and such, that hardly qualifies as "usage". :)
18:27:50  <Zuu_> But its still the name of whats after the decimal point when you pay by card.
18:28:46  <NGC3982> Zuu_: Really? I thought Riksbanken was quite clear on that the ,xx is parts of a krona, and not öre.
18:28:51  <Zuu_> Eg. electronic payments of öre is still possible.
18:29:03  <NGC3982> But that might just be semantics.
18:29:08  <Zuu_> Maybe
18:29:22  <Zuu_> I might have missed that.
18:29:26  <NGC3982> People barely use the krona currency, as far as i see it..
18:29:32  <NGC3982> enkrona*
18:30:26  <Kjetil> Is it the same as in Norway, where the government basicly claims that only criminals use cash, and it should be removed ?
18:30:42  <__ln__> Kjetil: Do you use this funny "mil = 10 km" unit in the kingdom of Norway?
18:30:53  <Kjetil> __ln__: Yes. We do!
18:30:57  <NGC3982> Zuu_: Nope, you are correct. The Wiki states that Öre is no longer a currency, but still used in payment calculation.
18:31:00  <NGC3982> Kjetil: yehey! \o/
18:31:14  <Zuu_> :-D
18:31:27  <NGC3982> Norweigans though sound like they are getting something cold up their but when they pronounce it.
18:31:30  <NGC3982> ;)
18:31:35  <NGC3982> butt*
18:31:37  <Kjetil> And I have also fallen into the metric mile trap once
18:31:58  <NGC3982> Kjetil: Yeah, the translation of the term makes a mess.
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18:32:56  <Kjetil> Yeah. I guess there is not translation of it
18:33:16  <Kjetil> no*
18:33:27  <Rubidium> Kjetil: so the Norwegian government claims that most Norwegians are (former) criminals for having handled with cash?
18:34:31  <NGC3982> As far as i know, the Norweigan (and Swedish) government does not think normal people need to use large stacks of cash.
18:34:35  <NGC3982> And i guess that is true.
18:35:05  <Supercheese> What would be the definition for "normal people"?
18:35:06  <NGC3982> Although, cash payments are still very usable. Just look at the lösgodis reference with __ln__ a few lines up.
18:35:15  <Kjetil> Rubidium: nah. They claim that currently honest people mostly use electronic ways of payment. And only criminals really have use for cash
18:35:49  <NGC3982> Supercheese: Everyone using a bank with internet connectivity, and people not having their own business.
18:36:29  <Kjetil> What they don't mention is tall all payments will then be recorded and stored in the banking databases
18:36:57  <planetmaker> good evening
18:36:59  <NGC3982> That seems self explanatory
18:37:08  <Zuu_> Hello planetmaker
18:37:14  <NGC3982> Evening PM.
18:37:24  <Kjetil> That the government have warrantless access to
18:37:48  <NGC3982> Kjetil: Yes, of course. What's the issue?
18:38:02  <Supercheese> Government would then try to outlaw cash
18:38:07  <Zuu_> planetmaker: Welcome to the off-topic evening :-)
18:38:14  <__ln__> Privacy is so obsolete.
18:38:41  <Kjetil> NGC3982: not everyone is comfortable with the government looking over everyones shoulder :P
18:39:42  <Supercheese> I'd say most people would rather have the government stay out of their business as much as possible
18:39:51  <NGC3982> Me neither, but the security of the digital currency system is incomparable.
18:39:55  <Supercheese> but then again, I'm American ;)
18:40:07  <NGC3982> Yes, of course. Im up for that too
18:40:10  <__ln__> If there was a possibility to click a "Share on Facebook" button after making money transfers online, I bet a lot of people would click.
18:40:16  <NGC3982> But someone does need to control the flow of taxes.
18:40:23  <planetmaker> off-topic evening? sounds like fund ;-)
18:40:28  <planetmaker> *fun
18:40:36  <Supercheese> actually we are discussing funds :P
18:40:39  <NGC3982> Heh, fund. An unintentioal pun.
18:40:40  <NGC3982> :D
18:40:43  <NGC3982> +n
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18:43:00  <__ln__> "Joe's bank account balance is now -21,33 €" -> "Share on Facebook" -> "Like"
18:43:11  <Supercheese> Oy vey...
18:43:31  * Supercheese avoids Facebook
18:44:01  <Alberth> not "Like" facebook  eh?  :D
18:44:02  <Supercheese> I also subscribe to the Antisocial Adblock filter list
18:44:41  <Supercheese> "Go away Facebook et al." in essence
18:46:05  * NGC3982 likes Facebook.
18:47:21  <__ln__> I think Stasi was doing it all wrong, spying people and their mail... They could have just set up a web based service where people can upload their photos and tell who they know, where they've been meeting and when; tell about their interests and daily life.
18:47:47  <NGC3982> That is an obsolete way of thinking about Facebook
18:47:52  <__ln__> Too bad the web wasn't invented yet, but they could have come up with something.
18:47:52  * andythenorth likes Facebook, but not arbitrary code that follows me around the web
18:47:53  <NGC3982> People still share what they want to share.
18:47:55  <NGC3982> Blame the people.
18:47:57  <andythenorth> which is what like buttons do
18:48:16  <Supercheese> __ln__: spot on!
18:48:22  <Zuu_> unless you block them
18:48:27  <Zuu_> (the like buttons)
18:48:51  <Supercheese> yep, that's what the antisocial filter list does
18:48:59  <Supercheese> or at least tries to do
18:49:06  <NGC3982> I use facebook often and regular.
18:49:22  <__ln__> NGC3982: Not quite true. People also share what their friends want to share about them. E.g. your location at some time, pointing out your face in a photo, etc.
18:49:24  <andythenorth> me too
18:49:46  <NGC3982> __ln__: Yes, sure. How would you prevent that?
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18:50:35  <Supercheese> Yeah, I'd rather not have people sharing their photos of me, tagging my face, and explaining everything about the photo on Facebook or other extremely public venue without my consent
18:50:39  <__ln__> NGC3982: For example by allowing people to only add such metadata about themselves.
18:50:49  <Supercheese> if I was at some event and had my face in a photo
18:50:53  <NGC3982> Yeah, sure. That's a way.
18:50:56  <andythenorth> anyway, don't confuse the wholesale collection of personal data by corporations (google, FB) with oppressive regimes that have legalised torture
18:51:04  <andythenorth> one is insidious, the other horrific
18:51:09  <NGC3982> I guess that would make people a bit angry.
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18:53:05  * Supercheese eats delicious, warm buttered toast
18:53:17  <Supercheese> not that silly stone-cold stuff they serve in the UK
18:54:08  <__ln__> Facebook must be a great source of data for automatic face recognition at borders and other places.
18:55:42  <NGC3982> The thing is
18:55:52  <NGC3982> And im sorry, this will be hard for me to explain in english
18:56:42  <NGC3982> ..So ill skip it.
18:56:59  <NGC3982> I want to make a choo-choo NewGRF with PMs face on the front of the train.
18:57:05  <NGC3982> But i don't have enough pixles :(
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18:57:37  <__ln__> NGC3982: Try some other language then.
18:57:55  <Supercheese> You'll have to deliver more raw materials to the pixel factory to get more pixels, then
18:57:59  <Supercheese> :P
18:58:00  <NGC3982> Well, i guess you can correct me.
18:58:05  <NGC3982> You are usually good at that.
18:58:53  <NGC3982> Well, the thing is. Regulating how people are allowed to upload pictures of anyone anywhere, probably creates more havok then actually allowing governments to use Facebook (and similar) to map out their own people.
18:59:12  <NGC3982> True or not, that is at least what i think most people will feel.
18:59:35  <Supercheese> I wouldn't advocate *regulating* photo uploading
18:59:54  <__ln__> *havoc, *than
19:00:05  <NGC3982> \o/
19:00:17  <NGC3982> I actually knew about hacov.. :(
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19:00:52  <NGC3982> Supercheese: Well, the only issue i personally feel agitated about, is the fact that taking a photo of anyone seems to be much less serious then it actually is.
19:01:27  <Supercheese> It's not the taking of the photo that's an issue, it's how it's shared (lots of it'ses :P)
19:01:29  <NGC3982> Writing a persons name on a concrete wall is frowned upon, but taking a picture on the person (drunk, puking or nearly dead) seems unharmful.
19:01:41  <NGC3982> Yes, that's kind of what i mean.
19:02:29  <Supercheese> Basically, if you would require consent from the person in the photo to publish the photo in a magazine, you must also obtain consent before publishing it anywhere on the Internet
19:02:33  <Supercheese> that's how I see things
19:02:57  <peter1138> So how is OpenTTD these days?
19:03:09  <Supercheese> of course, most often people publish without first obtaining consent, hence the issues
19:03:27  <Rubidium> peter1138: according to the forum it's dead/dieing
19:03:41  <Supercheese> yeah, that silly fellow who wouldn't read the article linked to him
19:03:50  <Supercheese> :(
19:03:54  <Kylie> Rubidium: whhat do you mean that wee are dying?
19:03:59  <Kylie> I am confused
19:04:18  <Rubidium> read the forum
19:04:21  <Supercheese>
19:04:26  <Supercheese> to be specific
19:04:40  <Supercheese>
19:04:44  <Supercheese> to be super-specific
19:04:55  <NGC3982> OpenTTD will NEVER die.
19:04:59  <NGC3982> Not if i can help it.
19:05:09  * NGC3982 still doesn't have a forum account.
19:05:16  <NGC3982> Supercheese: Well, you
19:05:33  <Supercheese> I don't upload photos of people to the Internet
19:05:42  <Supercheese> (if that's what you were asking)
19:05:43  <NGC3982> Supercheese: Afaik, the swedish laws regulating picture consent applies both to internet and magazines.
19:06:10  <Supercheese> Sounds reasonable
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19:06:59  <Supercheese> My guess would be that law is not well followed w.r.t. Facebook, and barely enforced, if at all
19:07:10  <NGC3982> They can't be
19:07:17  <NGC3982> Nobody would ever have the time to control it
19:07:21  <Supercheese> exactly
19:07:39  <NGC3982> And yes, i can't really say im for or against in this.
19:07:44  <Supercheese> if you're wondering what I would suggest to solve the issue, I have no idea
19:07:55  <NGC3982> Taking pictures should be easy, and non-byrocratic
19:07:59  <Supercheese> people should optimally just obey the laws because they're good, intelligent people
19:08:18  <NGC3982> But at the same time, i feel the same way as you, not wanting to be a part of something you actively didn't wish to be a part of.
19:08:18  <Supercheese> but the world is far from perfect
19:08:24  <NGC3982> Indeed.
19:08:27  <NGC3982> Like __ln__
19:08:39  <NGC3982> He's from Finland. He's far from perfect.
19:09:44  <Supercheese> :rolleyes:
19:10:13  <Supercheese> hmm, wonder if there is an IRC smiley for that (or is that all client-dependent)
19:10:38  <Kylie> Supercheese: client-dependent
19:10:46  <Supercheese> yeah, makes sense
19:10:48  <NGC3982> There are no smileys on IRC.
19:11:04  <peter1138> There is one.
19:11:07  <Supercheese> Well even plain text has smileys
19:11:20  <Supercheese> clients just may interpret them graphically, it seems
19:11:22  * NGC3982 adds 'animated'
19:11:32  <NGC3982> That's why i love irssi.
19:11:44  <NGC3982> No fuzz or twat-face graphics.
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19:12:06  * Supercheese uses ChatZilla and likes the graphical emoticons
19:12:39  <NGC3982>
19:12:42  <NGC3982> Something like that?
19:12:55  <NGC3982> It looks kind of nice. Almost like the older mIRC schemes.
19:12:55  <Supercheese> yep, my font is different
19:13:00  <Supercheese> but that's basically what I use
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19:13:10  <peter1138> Graphical emoticons ruin the spirit of it :p
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19:13:24  <NGC3982> Indeed.
19:13:29  <Supercheese> :(
19:13:33  <NGC3982> I use irssi with ignore on parts, modes, quits and similar.
19:13:38  <Supercheese> :< , even
19:13:46  <peter1138> And usually stumble upon things like (i + 8)
19:13:59  <Supercheese> yep, those are annoying
19:14:07  <NGC3982>
19:14:25  <NGC3982> irssi + shell <3
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19:25:29  <__ln__> who's the new dev?
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19:26:53  <Supercheese> Hmm, can't reach the devzone
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19:27:13  <Supercheese>
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19:27:48  * NGC3982 can't reach downforeveryoneorjustme.
19:27:53  <Supercheese> lol
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19:28:08  <NGC3982>
19:28:11  <NGC3982> Oops
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19:43:55  <heffer> anyone bored tonight? i got this for you: :P
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19:52:29  <planetmaker> I wouldn't believe it, but seems even all NewGRFs are available on bananas, heffer :-)
19:53:35  <Eddi|zuHause> that'll become more and more common, the more and more new players come in which have no knowledge of out-of-bananas grfs
19:54:08  <FLHerne> Or simply can't be bothered to deal with them :P
19:54:08  <Eddi|zuHause> crash_function: pthread_cond_wait@@GLIBC_2.3.2 <-- that sounds evil
19:54:39  * FLHerne doesn't care enough, other than FISH/FIRS nightlies ;-)
19:54:46  <FLHerne> Oh, and NewStations
19:54:59  <Eddi|zuHause> see...
19:55:34  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: See what?
19:55:58  <Eddi|zuHause> for "not bother" those are already way too many
19:56:17  <FLHerne> When BaNaNaS gets linked to the DevZone and mblunck can be persuaded to use it, I'll never need anything else :P
19:56:40  * FLHerne wants a 'download nightlies from devzone' config otion :-)
19:56:43  <Eddi|zuHause> both are really unlikely to happen... especially not at the same time :p
19:57:01  <planetmaker> I can imagine one of the two happening. But not both
19:57:36  <FLHerne> Have the first one at the option of the creator :P
19:57:47  <FLHerne> On by default of course...
19:58:09  <planetmaker> FLHerne, I rather want two things in the devzone:
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19:58:24  <planetmaker> a) being able to edit your newgrf source in the browser
19:58:43  <planetmaker> b) being able to hit a compile butten
19:59:00  <FLHerne> planetmaker: Add all of them :P
19:59:12  * FLHerne is a consumer more often :P
19:59:13  <planetmaker> and maybe, just maybe, the option to select a tag to be uploaded to bananas. That's the most complicated of all of the three then
19:59:25  <frosch123> [21:54] <Eddi|zuHause> crash_function: pthread_cond_wait@@GLIBC_2.3.2 <-- that sounds evil <- you're looking at the wrong thread
19:59:30  <frosch123> the other one is the one that crashed
20:01:03  <Eddi|zuHause> the screenshot looks like it crashed mid-drawing
20:01:12  <frosch123> yes, when drawing a groundsprite
20:06:16  <heffer> i always quite enjoy when i post a bugreport and you guys play sherlock holmes on it :) since i'm not that good at debugging i always can learn from you guys :)
20:06:52  <frosch123> i am actually impressed by how many information is contained in that reprot
20:07:46  <Eddi|zuHause> reads like a 32bpp-only issue
20:08:17  <heffer> well it's generated by out automatic bug reporting tool (abrt) which tries to collect all useful information (like core dumps, etc.)
20:08:26  * Rubidium misses drwatson
20:08:29  <heffer> and i also always ask for the crash.log files
20:08:46  <planetmaker> :-)
20:08:48  <frosch123> so, let's get ogfx 988
20:09:16  <planetmaker> 0.4.5
20:09:44  <frosch123> is that written somewhere? or do you know that :)
20:09:57  <planetmaker> hg tags :-)
20:10:54  <planetmaker> and I didn't exactly know, but suspected a release version
20:11:24  <Rubidium> does 0.4.5 set the 32bpp blitter?
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20:11:54  <planetmaker> It shouldn't set it. The extra is a v7 NewGRF still
20:12:52  <frosch123> sprite 7382 seems to be a river slope then
20:12:53  <heffer> if the guy got everything from the fedora repos he'd be using 0.4.4. I only pushed 0.4.5 to the repos on thursday and it's in testing for another 14 days or so
20:13:31  <heffer> if he's using 0.4.5 he probably got it from bananas
20:13:35  <planetmaker> heffer, he could have updated with ingame download
20:14:12  <planetmaker> 0.4.5 won't help the users with release openttd anyway :-)
20:14:16  <Eddi|zuHause> heffer: it says the revision in the crash.log, so there's very little debate about what he actually uses :)
20:14:29  <heffer> okay :)
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20:15:07  <Snail> hi guys
20:15:37  <frosch123> ok, it crashed on drawing the river slope where the river goes into the sea
20:15:38  <Snail> I'm still trying to exchange randomly-generated graphics for push-pull service
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20:16:02  <planetmaker> hm.... /me checks that opengfx code
20:16:10  <Snail> I'm now trying to set the graphics of a certain vehicle according to the random bits of another vehicle, read by var61
20:16:22  <frosch123> planetmaker: it does not crash for me currently
20:16:28  <Snail> my question is, what would be the random bits of a vehicle, based on random action 2?
20:16:29  <frosch123> but maybe i should start valgrind
20:17:07  <planetmaker> frosch123, nor does it for me. Not even the crash.sav
20:17:07  <Snail> i.e. would they be 00 ... 7F, 80 ... FF for two random sets etc.?
20:17:35  <planetmaker> Snail, var. 5F or so
20:17:44  <frosch123> Snail: just whatever you set in the ra2
20:17:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Snail: i asked myself that once, but didn't find a documented answer
20:17:54  <frosch123> you explicitly set the startbit
20:17:59  <frosch123> and the number of cases
20:18:07  <heffer> I'll run it on my fedora machine to see if it crashes for me
20:18:19  <Eddi|zuHause> especially rounding in case of non-power-of-two
20:19:01  <Snail> frosch123: yes, in ra2 I set the number of cases
20:19:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i then gave up looking, because i didn't actually need it
20:19:19  <Snail> but then in var5F (through var61) I need to check the exact random bit pattern
20:19:38  <planetmaker> var & 0x01
20:19:43  <planetmaker> checks for the last bit
20:19:44  <frosch123> Snail: so, how many cases? 2? then that would be one bit
20:19:46  <Snail> so I'd like to know what will be the random bit pattern with respect to the cases I identify
20:19:48  <planetmaker> mask out as appropriate
20:20:00  <frosch123> (var7f >> (the first bit from ra2)) & (number of cases - 1)
20:20:06  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the number of cases is independent from the number of bits
20:20:20  <Eddi|zuHause> you can have 3 cases with 2 bit, and 3 cases with 8 bit
20:20:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the latter being less uneven in its distribution
20:20:52  <frosch123> no, you cannot
20:21:15  <Eddi|zuHause> you sure?
20:21:17  <frosch123> "Number of different sets to choose from.  This must be a power of 2, i.e. 2, 4, 8, 16 etc. " <- from the specs
20:21:22  <frosch123> you are confusing it with townnames
20:21:31  <frosch123> and ottd does just this: mask  = (this->num_groups - 1) << this->lowest_randbit;
20:21:42  <Eddi|zuHause> then nml might mask this with some additional magic
20:22:49  <Eddi|zuHause> but Snail isn't using nml, he's using m4nfo (i presume)
20:23:02  <Snail> yes I'm using m4nfo
20:23:24  <frosch123> [22:20] <frosch123> (var7f >> (the first bit from ra2)) & (number of cases - 1) <- that still holds
20:23:35  <frosch123> s/var7f/var5f/ of course
20:23:55  <Snail> frosch123: so 2 cases would act on bit0?
20:24:16  <frosch123> 2 cases would use 1 bit, specified by the "first bit to use"
20:24:27  <Snail> i.e. 0000 0000, 0000 0010 etc. would be the first case and 0000 0001, 0000 0011 etc would be the second case?
20:24:42  <Snail> oh, with "first bit to use" being the other input of ra2?
20:24:45  <frosch123> yes, if you use bit 0 as start
20:24:48  <Eddi|zuHause> so put "first bit to use" in the shift, and 0x01 in the and mask
20:25:25  <Snail> so with four cases, if I specify bit0 as start, it will use bit0 and bit1, right?
20:25:34  <frosch123> yes
20:25:44  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, put 0x03 as mask in that case
20:26:19  <heffer> i can't make it crash either
20:27:04  <Snail> ok, I'll it this way :)
20:36:15  <__ln__>
20:37:13  <NGC3982> Heh.
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20:40:49  * Rubidium doesn't like heffer's unreproducable crashes ;)
20:41:39  <heffer> I believe it's a Fedora thing. As our abrt tool asks user to report them. Otherwise those users would probably just restart their OpenTTD and forget about the bug :P
20:42:26  <planetmaker> well. obviously openttd crashed - which it shouldn't. But...
20:42:38  <planetmaker> ... unreproducable makes it a hard issue :-)
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20:45:39  <frosch123> ottd in valgrind is so slow :/
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21:05:41  <Rubidium> frosch123: how much of zbase has it scanned already ;)
21:06:03  <frosch123> no zbase installed :)
21:06:24  <frosch123> anyway, valgrind does not print anything, at whateer zoomlevel i look at that rvier
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21:09:02  <frosch123> so, out of ideas
21:09:29  <Rubidium> it's corruption somewhere
21:09:41  <Rubidium> either in physical memory
21:09:50  <Rubidium> or by the sprite cache code
21:10:09  <Rubidium> maybe something fishy in the sprite (re)loading?
21:10:21  <Rubidium> and/or cache maintenaince
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21:11:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i got evil things once while modifying the GRF while openttd was running
21:11:37  <frosch123> no surprise
21:11:44  <frosch123> unlink the grf first, before modifying
21:11:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i since learned to do reload_newgrfs before unpausing
21:12:25  <Eddi|zuHause> not as easy, as openttd only sees the symlink to my development dir
21:13:43  <Eddi|zuHause> (at least that was the thing i thought was the reason)
21:14:17  <Eddi|zuHause> grfcodec should rename the old file and create a new file
21:15:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and if openttd doesn't keep the file open, but closes and reopens it infrequently
21:15:18  <Eddi|zuHause> then there is no chance to prevent this
21:17:35  <Rubidium> can't remember grfcodec causing the issues; with nml I had it way more often
21:17:46  <Rubidium> but nml fixed that, which I really like
21:18:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember if that was before or after i switched to grfcodec
21:22:24  <frosch123> night
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21:29:52  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:11:06  <__ln__> all the swedes sleeping already?
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22:37:54  <Eddi|zuHause> we should go back to the times when you went sleeping at sundown, and wake up at sunrise
22:38:19  <Supercheese> pfff, haha
22:38:22  <Supercheese> good joke
22:38:26  <Supercheese> ;)
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22:45:30  <__ln__> it's been said that earlier used to sleep for ~4 hours first, then wake up for an hour or two, and sleep some more before morning
22:45:39  <__ln__> *people used to
22:46:00  <Supercheese> before electricity, yeah I dunno what I would have done
22:46:23  <__ln__> and has been claimed that's the natural rhythm for humans, and electric lights messed it up
22:46:24  <Supercheese> become a military officer perhaps, then schedule is very rigid
22:53:22  <__ln__> going to sleep at sundown is good as long as it happens every night, but when the sun doesn't set in several weeks, it can be a problem.
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