Log for #openttd on 16th October 2012:
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00:47:50  <a_p3rson> can someone help me with FIRS?
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05:15:43  <andythenorth> moin
05:15:52  <Supercheese> salve
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06:37:34  <planetmaker> moin
06:57:06  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:04:54  <planetmaker> hello Terkhen
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07:10:13  <NGC3982> Morning.
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07:32:35  <Knogle> morning
07:32:54  <Supercheese> Salve et tibi
07:41:30  <dihedral> hello
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07:50:33  <Supercheese>  Valete omnes, nunc est dormiendum
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07:54:34  <NGC3982> Okidoki
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08:50:05  <Yexo> good morning
08:54:21  <peter1138> morning good
08:55:00  <Ammler> morning good, becomming worse
08:55:09  <peter1138> *becoming
08:57:44  <NGC3982> Ammler: How is that?
08:59:11  <Ammler> clouds arise
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09:08:04  <planetmaker> clouds arise. winter is coming...
09:12:04  <SpComb> nuclear winter
09:12:08  <peter1138> morning has broken, like my first pee cee
09:19:33  <peter1138> load avg 0.07
09:19:38  <peter1138> wonder if it'll break
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09:28:58  <peter1138> HEAAAAAAAAAART BEAT
09:29:04  <peter1138> do de do de do de doooooooooo
09:29:31  <peter1138> actually no E in hart
09:29:48  <NGC3982> Yes, there is.
09:29:57  <peter1138> nope
09:30:04  <peter1138>
09:30:31  <NGC3982> Ah, Tony Hart.
09:30:37  <NGC3982> How punnish.
09:30:49  <peter1138> love the dated cars at 0:34
09:31:21  <NGC3982> Hehe
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09:37:28  <Ammler> becoming better again \o/
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09:43:04  <Eddi|zuHause> there's an e in heart, but no e in hart. very logical.
09:47:49  <peter1138> vry lgcl
09:48:16  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on if you view y as consonant or vowel
09:48:37  <peter1138> point. it's a vowel there.
09:48:41  <peter1138> vr lgcl
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10:48:00  <peter1138> hmm, when did turn into a seller-finding site?
10:52:53  <__ln__> within a year or so, i guess.
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11:02:04  <__ln__> also their delivery times appear to be many days slower than amazon's
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11:52:28  <NGC3982>
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12:24:47  <V453000> :DD nice one
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12:41:40  <andythenorth> so here's a thing that was passed on to me from Plone conference (I didn't go, all our devs did though)...
12:41:55  <andythenorth> ...Plone projects were usually hosted via svn, trac etc
12:42:16  <andythenorth> ...and there were community contributions but a relatively small number of active contributors
12:42:43  <andythenorth> projects that move to github apparently get a substantial increase in community contributions
12:42:53  <andythenorth> [no stats published]
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12:43:34  <andythenorth>
12:47:35  * Terkhen thinks that OpenTTD version for network games does not work with git/hg
12:49:43  <andythenorth> hmm
12:49:48  <andythenorth> probably resolvable :P
12:49:53  <andythenorth> I'm not proposing a move :)
12:50:06  <andythenorth> just passing on info from another big open source project ;)
12:52:00  <Terkhen> if it is a problem it should be solvable indeed
12:53:59  <Terkhen> as long as I can keep using hg for development, I don't mind, but maybe a local repo is simpler for integration with the cf
13:04:59  <andythenorth> user bits
13:05:35  <andythenorth> there should be (action-14 style) a way to provide depot gui options to change user bit values
13:05:52  <andythenorth> and all vehicle types should have user bits
13:06:00  <andythenorth> and this should *never* be allowed to be changed at stations
13:08:35  * NGC3982 dances.
13:09:42  <andythenorth> are we human?
13:11:07  <andythenorth> or are we dancer?
13:11:33  <Markk> or are we cancer?
13:11:53  <NGC3982> That song is lame.
13:12:06  * NGC3982 is thinking more ..Men without hats.
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13:16:03  <andythenorth> meh
13:16:07  <andythenorth> no alberth :)
13:19:31  <NGC3982> We can load if we want to, we can drop our load behind
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13:20:12  * Pinkbeast heard a Men Without Hats song that wasn't the Safety Dance at Dead and Buried on Friday, which you basically never do outside Canadia.
13:20:23  <NGC3982> 'Cause if it wont accept and if they don't accept, well: They're no station of mine.
13:35:48  <Sacro>
13:37:38  <Sacro> totally openttd related!
13:38:55  <andythenorth> who made it? :)
13:39:24  <Sacro> Found it on Reddit
13:39:30  <Sacro>
13:39:38  <Markk> Ctrl butan <3
13:39:41  <blathijs> Sacro: It's awesome
13:39:49  <Sacro> blathijs: i know :D
13:39:56  <Sacro> It explains presignals pretty well
13:40:06  <Sacro> haha
13:40:13  <Sacro> "So always shovel shit as far away as possible!!!"
13:41:47  <Sacro> blathijs: long time no see, how goes it?
13:41:59  <peter1138> It's about four years out of date. Unless you're stuck in the past on #openttdcoop, there's no reason anyone should be using presignals over path signals.
13:42:02  <peter1138> ^ LOL
13:42:11  <Markk> PBS <3
13:42:18  <blathijs> Sacro: Busy, but still checking this channel every now and then :-)
13:42:21  <peter1138> path signals +1
13:43:04  <andythenorth> rm the presignals :)
13:43:16  <Sacro> I miss HackeyKid's PBS
13:43:25  <Sacro> blathijs: same, life changes
13:45:31  <peter1138> eh
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13:45:49  <peter1138> it wasn't as good as what we've got now
13:46:31  <andythenorth> be nice if current version changed the penalties on a per-vehicle basis when service was needed
13:46:36  <andythenorth> probably insane :P
13:46:44  <andythenorth> but trains often fail to go to depot
13:46:54  <peter1138> better than them crashing
13:46:57  <peter1138> which the old version did :p
13:47:20  <andythenorth> ho ho
13:48:26  <Belugas> hello
13:49:15  <blathijs> Sacro: #openttd is still one of the blessed channels that got a channel number below 20 (and is thus quickly accessible in irssi) ;-)
13:49:44  <Sacro> blathijs: still '3' for me :)
13:49:49  <planetmaker> is that general or just for you, blathijs ?
13:49:58  * planetmaker has no clue about irssi
13:51:11  <blathijs> planetmaker: Just for me
13:51:44  <blathijs> planetmaker: Channels 1 to 19 are accessible by pressing ESC + a number or a letter on the topmost row on the keyboard
13:52:21  <blathijs> so those can be easily accessed, while the other channels I have, I need to do /win <number> or ESC + arrow right repeatedly
13:52:32  <Sacro> can't use alt?
13:53:11  <blathijs> Yeah, but I got used to ESC at some point
13:53:27  <blathijs> Hmm, actually, alt doesn't seem to work in my xterm either
13:53:59  <si-m1> yea, i use esc aswell, it always works
13:54:08  <si-m1> and you don't have to hold it while pressing numbers
13:54:21  <si-m1> and i'm a vim user
13:54:30  <peter1138> yeah esc is easier
13:59:14  * andythenorth ponders class Tile(object)
14:00:47  <andythenorth> also
14:01:33  <andythenorth> for date-sensitive industry graphics, handle that withinin the spritelayout, or an earlier switch that chooses a different spritelayout
14:01:50  <NGC3982> blathijs: ESC? :e..
14:02:07  <Belugas> Tile = Class(TObject)
14:02:08  <Belugas> ed;
14:02:11  <Belugas> end;
14:02:30  * Belugas shakes his keyboard... too much coffee drops, i guess
14:02:38  * peter1138 shakes Belugas
14:02:42  * andythenorth has been drinking decaf
14:02:56  <NGC3982> Decaf?
14:02:59  <NGC3982> Sweet jesus.
14:03:19  <NGC3982> I banned decaf across all my solar systems a long time ago
14:03:26  <NGC3982> Sacreligious crap.
14:03:41  <Sacro> ?
14:03:43  <Sacro> oh, not me
14:03:55  <NGC3982> Sacroligious ;)
14:04:01  <peter1138> hehe
14:04:02  <Belugas> sacré Sacro
14:04:06  <Sacro> Sacrolicious
14:04:41  <peter1138> sacro bleu
14:05:38  <andythenorth> who understands advanced spritelayouts?
14:06:15  <peter1138> what's that?
14:06:22  <planetmaker> a nifty tool
14:06:41  <planetmaker> sprite: groundtile(slope_to_sprite_offset(0, 0));
14:06:54  <planetmaker> where you provide a spriteset of 19 groundtiles
14:07:10  <andythenorth> if it can select item n from spriteset according to animation frame, it can presumably also do it by date?
14:07:19  <planetmaker> basically you supply the offset via var 0x100 or so, peter1138
14:07:25  <planetmaker> offset into spriteset
14:07:33  <peter1138> The Islamic Human Rights Commission issues a statement: "The facts are clear, Muslims are extradited, non-Muslims are not. Muslims face detention without charge, non-Muslims do not. In light of government actions it is clear that Muslims are seen as second class citizens in Britain."
14:07:38  <planetmaker> andythenorth, any arbitrary condition
14:07:41  <peter1138> islamic... human rights... whut?
14:07:46  <planetmaker> s/condition/expression/
14:07:59  <planetmaker> but it must not have return values > 255 iirc
14:08:10  <planetmaker> but maybe that info is wrong
14:08:12  <andythenorth> that's ok
14:08:15  <andythenorth> hmm
14:08:27  <andythenorth> can it also switch to a different spriteset? :)
14:08:33  * andythenorth could go back to the docs :P
14:08:47  <planetmaker> ho, one spriteset
14:09:39  <andythenorth> constructing a date-sensitive, animated spriteset would be intriguing
14:09:49  <andythenorth> might be better to switch spritelayout entirely for that
14:11:39  <planetmaker> sprite: spritesetname(construction_stage + (date<1950)*4 + animation_frame*8
14:11:43  <planetmaker> add )
14:11:46  <planetmaker> and ;
14:12:03  <andythenorth> interleaved
14:12:09  <planetmaker> one way or another
14:12:12  <andythenorth> definitely one option
14:13:12  <andythenorth> not too magical
14:13:19  <andythenorth> point in favour of it
14:16:43  <planetmaker> it might be easier comprehensible, if you make one sprite per consturction stage and hide them conditionally
14:17:09  <planetmaker> or one per date condition or even both
14:17:31  <blathijs> NGC3982: ESC? :e.. <-- what does that mean? :-)
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14:20:40  <andythenorth> I'll do some tests
14:20:56  <andythenorth> I kind of favour letting the spriteset handle animation only
14:21:05  <andythenorth> and do date stuff with a proper switch
14:23:19  <planetmaker> you may notice that grainmill did exactly that, at least some time ago ;-)
14:26:34  <andythenorth> yes
14:26:36  <NGC3982> blathijs: I never understood the reason for using ESC as a valid key in irssi, or even linux in general.
14:26:52  <peter1138> why should it be an invalid key?
14:27:20  <NGC3982> As a Windows user, not using it to simply close stuff feels odd and unusual.
14:27:29  <peter1138> you're "escaping" from your current mode
14:30:17  <blathijs> NGC3982: In a terminal, I think that ESC + a letter or number actually generates a key sequence similar to alt + a letter or number, really
14:30:41  <blathijs> NGC3982: So I guess it's more of an artifact of the terminal than an intended hotkey choice in irssi
14:30:50  <NGC3982> blathijs: Yes, it does.
14:30:50  <blathijs> Not sure, though
14:31:05  <NGC3982> Well sure, there are surely good reasons for using it
14:31:12  <NGC3982> But i don't feel that way, simply.
14:31:46  <NGC3982> For me, that would also imply using right- as left-click, space-bar as delete and "Print screen" to make my monitor explode.
14:33:19  <Pinkbeast> Or Ctrl-Alt-Del as "open the task manager" rather than "shut down immediately"?
14:35:05  <planetmaker> that kills my x-windows
14:35:29  <Pinkbeast> Errr not C-A-Backspace, planetmaker?
14:35:35  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: Harr.
14:35:52  <Pinkbeast> But I was pointing out to NGC that the Windows world has been known to change its mind too.
14:36:35  <planetmaker> maybe. Not trying that now, though ;-)
14:37:01  <Pinkbeast> Well, C-A-Backspace is the traditional X killer.
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15:08:46  <supermop> hi!
15:09:40  <peter1138> SUPER!
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15:12:09  <andythenorth> DISCOUNT!
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15:14:55  <andythenorth> ho ho
15:14:59  <andythenorth> it's just an nml identifier
15:15:01  <NGC3982> }o/
15:15:08  <andythenorth> so I could chain to a switch for madness
15:15:18  <andythenorth> it doesn't have to be a a spritelayout
15:15:24  <andythenorth> bet you didn't expect that
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16:06:48  * andythenorth invents some new date switch object thingy
16:06:49  <andythenorth> maybe
16:09:16  * Prof_Frink invents a better banana
16:09:27  <andythenorth> what are the features?
16:10:53  <Prof_Frink> Reinforced skin to avoid damage during transportation.
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16:12:08  <andythenorth> armour banana
16:12:20  <andythenorth> hello DanMacK
16:12:35  <DanMacK>  hey andy
16:12:47  <DanMacK> brb
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16:12:59  <Prof_Frink> Goodbye DanMacK.
16:13:04  <andythenorth> he comes
16:13:05  <andythenorth> he goes
16:13:21  <Prof_Frink> DanMacK doesn't want an armournana.
16:13:56  <Prof_Frink> Hmm, this prototype has a distinct flaw.
16:14:14  <Prof_Frink> You need an angle grinder to open it.
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16:14:55  <Prof_Frink> hello DanMacK
16:14:57  <DanMacK> There we go
16:15:27  <andythenorth> he's back :)
16:15:31  * DanMacK waves
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16:25:19  <Elukka>,banana,domestication,food,humans,natural-dc2e804177daa25fba41c856b53cadf2_h.jpg
16:25:32  <Elukka> a natural banana
16:26:18  * FLHerne is a bit alarmed by Android-related developments
16:26:19  <Elukka> an armornana
16:26:31  <Elukka> which android-related developments
16:26:37  <FLHerne> Elukka: You missed the 'u' :D
16:27:21  <FLHerne>
16:28:43  <Elukka> the u?
16:29:31  <FLHerne> In armour :P
16:30:32  <Elukka> my english is a mix of american and british depending on what i feel like :p
16:30:46  <Elukka> same damn thing
16:31:29  * FLHerne is joking
16:32:23  <Elukka>
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16:33:33  <Rubidium> is that Austria?
16:35:13  <andythenorth> it looks incorrect
16:35:23  <andythenorth> the wires are in the wrong place
16:35:30  <andythenorth> how does it get power on the road?
16:36:05  <Rubidium> the panto is extraordinarily high
16:36:11  <Prof_Frink> Oh no it isn't!
16:36:23  <Elukka> messing around with railtypes?
16:36:42  <Elukka> looks austrian to me
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16:55:46  <NGC3982> What's that runned over thingy.
17:03:08  <__ln__> *run, ran, run
17:03:55  <NGC3982> "What's that ran over thingy?"?
17:03:56  <__ln__> a new kind of Straßenbahn?
17:04:21  <NGC3982> Wha'zat.
17:04:29  <__ln__> NGC3982: i'd say the third form is what you're after, so 'run'.
17:05:29  <NGC3982> That immediately made it more logical.
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17:06:29  <Prof_Frink> NGC3982: Broken.
17:08:12  <NGC3982> Harr.
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17:14:35  <Alberth> woep
17:15:14  <planetmaker> oddink, Alberth
17:17:27  <ZxBiohazardZx> heya
17:17:37  <ZxBiohazardZx> a few quicky questions
17:17:53  <ZxBiohazardZx> 1) where do we store max-loan and a company's current loan?
17:18:10  <ZxBiohazardZx> or get those values
17:18:13  <ZxBiohazardZx> c->???
17:20:04  <Alberth> grep for 'loan' in the source code does not given any clue?
17:20:10  <planetmaker> what about GetLoan() or so? ^^
17:20:25  <ZxBiohazardZx> im a utter naab
17:20:31  <planetmaker> I'd be surprised if anyone knew by heart
17:20:44  <ZxBiohazardZx> trying to get my into pseudo-ready code for a patch/test
17:21:09  <ZxBiohazardZx> changing c-> money >= 0 check to a more complex check for bankrupcy
17:21:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> cause if you lack money but can loan more from the bank then imo you shouldnt bankrupt over not looking down there or being unlucky on 3-4 dates a year
17:21:50  <Alberth> find bankrupcy news creation would be another entry
17:22:09  <ZxBiohazardZx> bankrupcy news creation is the case3
17:22:16  <ZxBiohazardZx> it checks company value
17:22:20  <ZxBiohazardZx> nothing with loan
17:22:48  <ZxBiohazardZx> my suggestions are up top in that linked topic
17:22:50  <Alberth> somewhere nearby the code that decides to create news is located
17:23:10  <Alberth> which gives good clues how things are stored/named
17:23:22  <ZxBiohazardZx> c->bankrupt_asked
17:23:30  <ZxBiohazardZx> but k
17:23:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> ill go check :P
17:24:05  <ZxBiohazardZx> not sure what model i prefer yet, i think 2 is better for multiple reasons (allows to customize it and make it easier/harder based on treshhold
17:24:10  <Alberth> we don't know the code by heart, we look it up when needed; 300,000 lines of code is bit too much to remember all
17:24:15  <Pinkbeast> Not to try and make you creep features, but why not implement a more sensible idea of credit facilities?
17:24:32  <ZxBiohazardZx> ?
17:24:39  <ZxBiohazardZx> and yeah Alberth good point
17:24:47  <Pinkbeast> Well, first, for a quick fix, #1 seems very sensible.
17:24:53  <ZxBiohazardZx> true
17:25:01  <ZxBiohazardZx> 1 is just a matter of checking if you can loan more
17:25:13  <Pinkbeast> I don't see any downside at all to #1
17:25:15  <ZxBiohazardZx> but i think 2 is a sexier solution
17:25:19  <ZxBiohazardZx> there is none
17:25:24  <ZxBiohazardZx> 1 is way better then current implementation already
17:25:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> but then 2 offers more gameplay value as in providing a difficulty setting
17:25:50  <ZxBiohazardZx> as it takes in effect a tresh-hold AND your loan/maxloan
17:26:04  <Pinkbeast> What I mean by credit facilities is that real (large) businesses negotiate lines of credit and then money is loaned automatically.
17:26:12  <ZxBiohazardZx> so if you have no loan you cant bankrupt (maybe unless your in so much dept it is rediculous)
17:26:30  <ZxBiohazardZx> how about 2 then?
17:26:33  <Pinkbeast> "if you have no loan you can't go bankrupt" seems obviously absurd.
17:26:39  <ZxBiohazardZx> yeah true
17:26:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> just another if
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17:26:49  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka if no load then check for case 1
17:27:13  <ZxBiohazardZx> if no loan, check case 1 (aka max negative money + maxloan > 0)
17:27:33  <ZxBiohazardZx> and if you do have a loan then take that into effect by comparing to a treshhold
17:28:05  <ZxBiohazardZx> (CurrentMoney * (Loan/MaxLoan))+Treshhold Value < 0  that thing
17:28:08  <Pinkbeast> #3 seems not a bad idea. In negative money, pay higher interest; but as long as the company is projected to pay it back, the bank will let you carry on, just not spend any more money.
17:28:09  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, automatically drawing loan would imho be terrible.
17:28:32  <ZxBiohazardZx> im not saying auto-draw loan
17:28:49  <ZxBiohazardZx> im just suggesting not to declare bankrupt when you forget/can draw loan
17:28:54  <Pinkbeast> planet: I admit it's a bad match with the current ho-ho-you-built-a-million-tunnel interface. :-)
17:29:19  <planetmaker> #3 three is bollocks. Any company starting off would be bancrupted immediately. As you always start with loan only
17:29:31  <ZxBiohazardZx> true
17:29:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> and end/high-game your interest vs income is never fun
17:29:45  <Pinkbeast> You could have a grace period before #3 applies.
17:29:54  <ZxBiohazardZx> makes it harder to implement Pink
17:29:55  <planetmaker> #2 is implemented now as higher loan = higher interests. So void as well
17:29:58  <ZxBiohazardZx> so i think 1 and 2
17:30:06  <Pinkbeast> #2 seems daft.
17:30:20  <ZxBiohazardZx> #2 makes you go bankrupt more likely when you are on max loan
17:30:28  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka it makes repaying even more beneficial
17:30:29  <planetmaker> and the point being?
17:30:41  <ZxBiohazardZx> that if you are on a low-loan you dont bankrupt as easily
17:30:47  <planetmaker> probability in bancrupting companies is... not nice
17:30:51  <Pinkbeast> But by #1 you should only be able to go bankrupt at all when on (or in debt equivalent to) max loan.
17:30:52  <planetmaker> -1 on that
17:31:02  <Pinkbeast> So #2 does nothing if #1 applies.
17:31:04  <ZxBiohazardZx> atm if you have a 10k/1000.000.000 money  you can bankrupt
17:31:15  <ZxBiohazardZx> 10k/100.000.000k loan that is :P
17:31:21  <planetmaker> yes. #2 Doesn't solve that, does it?
17:31:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> yes it does
17:31:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> partially it does actually
17:31:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> see examples
17:31:46  <Pinkbeast> #3 could only apply when max loan is at least x times initial loan, so it can't carry off a starting or small company.
17:31:55  <ZxBiohazardZx> if your negative the same ammount then having a low relative loan is beneficial
17:32:16  <planetmaker> ZxBiohazardZx, #2 tries to be intelligent. But you can never guess how a player's investment tries to pay off. Keep it stupid. #2 wants to be smart, but is not
17:32:17  <ZxBiohazardZx> see the -10k on 80% relative loan and -10k on 10% relative loan
17:32:30  <planetmaker> simple rules rule
17:32:47  <ZxBiohazardZx> so then #1 is most easy of them all
17:32:56  <planetmaker> we have it now very simple: you bancrupt when your cash < 0 for 3 (4?) consecutive quarters on the 1st of them
17:33:00  <planetmaker> easy to understand
17:33:04  <planetmaker> easy to grasp
17:33:16  <ZxBiohazardZx> its darn harsh on me always :(
17:33:22  <ZxBiohazardZx> i keep bankrupting by accident
17:33:26  <Pinkbeast> I don't feel that #1 appreciably complexifies it.
17:33:28  <planetmaker> #1 makes somewhat sense to not bancrupt by chance
17:33:33  <ZxBiohazardZx> i can have -30k on the "checkdate" and +40k rest of the month
17:33:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> it doesnt unflag you
17:33:47  <ZxBiohazardZx> so if you have -XX on 4 bad days
17:33:52  <Pinkbeast> And #3 does make it more complex... but only by giving the player extra grace.
17:33:52  <ZxBiohazardZx> with a peaky income in between
17:33:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> then your screwed
17:34:17  <ZxBiohazardZx> and #1 can even be limited
17:34:25  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka if you forgot to loan 10k then we are like meh
17:34:25  <Pinkbeast> Oh, #3 doesn't bankrupt starting companies at all if it only applies when #1 is also satisfied.
17:34:28  <planetmaker> that's why I say, that #1 makes somewhat sense to me. But not #2 and #3
17:34:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> but if you forget to loan 40k we are like FU stop being an idiot
17:34:43  <ZxBiohazardZx> fair enough
17:35:03  <Pinkbeast> I see no reason to limit #1. The bank's willing to lend you that money.
17:35:06  <planetmaker> #1 also doesn't change the complexity of the bancruptcy decision. Just the criterion is changed
17:35:19  <ZxBiohazardZx> hmhm
17:35:28  <ZxBiohazardZx> i think to a more fair criterium
17:35:32  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka you cannot pay your debts
17:35:49  <ZxBiohazardZx> though maybe it needs a limitation
17:35:52  <Pinkbeast> That lets a company with large capital value go on _forever_ in debt.
17:35:59  <ZxBiohazardZx> as having a low loan and a high debt would be benneficial on that one
17:36:06  <ZxBiohazardZx> yes
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17:36:13  <ZxBiohazardZx> hence it needs some sort of limitation
17:36:20  <planetmaker> anyway... sports. see you later
17:36:24  <Pinkbeast> When the bank ought to foreclose when you have no prospect of making money, before you can bleed away all the capital value it would otherwise get.
17:36:25  <Alberth> bye planetmaker
17:36:38  <ZxBiohazardZx> cya planet, thx for feedback :)
17:36:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> so hmmz
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17:36:48  <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe #1 with a max-limit?
17:36:53  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka we allow you max 100k negative?
17:37:07  <Pinkbeast> I see no advantage at all to having a max limit.
17:37:27  <ZxBiohazardZx> if you have -400k money and a 500k loan is possible
17:37:32  <ZxBiohazardZx> i think that is being lazy
17:37:38  <ZxBiohazardZx> and its dodging interest
17:37:38  <Pinkbeast> OK... so what?
17:37:44  <ZxBiohazardZx> at what point do we decide its unreal
17:37:45  <ZxBiohazardZx> XD
17:37:59  <ZxBiohazardZx> id say maybe even make it money+9.999
17:38:05  <Pinkbeast> Charge interest (if that is not already done) on all negative cash balances.
17:38:05  <ZxBiohazardZx> so that if you can loan 10k your fine
17:38:08  <ZxBiohazardZx> but not too much
17:38:11  <Alberth> ZxBiohazardZx: 'real' is not a valid criterium, it is about gaming fun
17:38:15  <ZxBiohazardZx> true alberth
17:38:28  <ZxBiohazardZx> my point being on current bankrupcy you would bankrupt
17:38:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> my new system would allow huge negatives as long as you can take a loan that big
17:38:44  <Pinkbeast> ... although if you do want "real", as I said - the bank is willing to lend you the money if you pay the interest.
17:38:59  <ZxBiohazardZx> but we dont want auto-loaning
17:39:03  <Pinkbeast> Why should they care if you do it by loan or by overdraft.
17:39:07  <Alberth> ZxBiohazardZx: as planet maker said, #1 makes some sense
17:39:11  <ZxBiohazardZx> so im trying to make sure the bankrupcy flag pops on the right moment
17:39:13  <ZxBiohazardZx> yes i agree with it
17:39:20  <ZxBiohazardZx> #1 makes sence, it changes the criterium
17:39:27  <ZxBiohazardZx> but even in #1 you can have gradings :P
17:39:32  <Pinkbeast> ITYM criterion, FWIW.
17:39:50  <Pinkbeast> Those gradings seem a pointless addition to a simple and obvious change.
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17:40:07  <ZxBiohazardZx> i like to think my change through before i put in my efford of coding it
17:40:10  <ZxBiohazardZx> im a horrible coder
17:40:23  <ZxBiohazardZx> so i have to think out my idea in a superb way :)
17:41:21  <ZxBiohazardZx> so yeah #1 is maybe too easy
17:41:28  <ZxBiohazardZx> "as long as you can loan your fine"
17:41:52  <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe make it a bool (canloanmore) (we already check if your not on max on getting the loan)
17:42:00  <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz nvm
17:42:07  <ZxBiohazardZx> #1's simplicity is its power
17:45:42  <Alberth> you drive yourself down the drain, how is that wrong?
17:48:19  <ZxBiohazardZx> dunno :P
17:48:48  <andythenorth> Alberth: :o
17:48:51  <andythenorth> hai :)
17:48:59  <Alberth> hi andy
17:49:12  <ZxBiohazardZx> hey andy
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18:01:30  <Wolf01> evenink!
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18:02:59  <Alberth> oddink
18:07:00  <supermop> Why bother making rivers buildable?
18:07:19  <supermop> you can always correct for aesthetics in scenario editor
18:07:35  <FLHerne> supermop: For when you need to move it by a tile or so, and a canal would look silly
18:08:01  <FLHerne> 'You can do it in a timeconsuming and inconvenient way' isn't really a counter-argument
18:08:02  <supermop> but if i go out to my local river and want to move it
18:08:13  <supermop> i need to build a canal
18:08:26  <FLHerne> supermop: If you do that with some big diggers, it'll work :-)
18:08:28  <V453000> pointless
18:08:30  <V453000> imo :)
18:08:35  <V453000> I dont use rivers ever
18:08:55  <FLHerne> You can skip the concreting bit though :P
18:09:03  <supermop> and the resulting trench is a canal, whether its 4 feet deep or 100
18:09:19  <supermop> most canals in real life do not have concrete edges
18:09:30  <FLHerne> Artificial rivers do exist :P
18:09:46  <FLHerne> Come over to the Fens, we have loads :-)
18:10:02  <supermop> but an artificial river that a ship can pass through is still a canal
18:10:13  <FLHerne> Anyway, in OTTD the only difference *is* the lack of edging :P
18:10:21  <supermop> regardless of how it was made or how curvy it is
18:10:46  <FLHerne> Yes, but a canal isn't an artificial river :P
18:10:54  * FLHerne would like artificial rivers :P
18:11:14  <FLHerne> Well, some canals are artificial rivers, but not the ones in OTTD currently
18:12:41  <supermop> how would an artificial river be different in game?
18:12:56  <Alberth> :{BLACK}Current production: {YELLOW}normal {}{}{BLACK}Supplies requir... <-- andythenorth, why the spaces before {} ??
18:13:16  <supermop> would it have a different speed for ships than canal?
18:13:58  <supermop> if rivers could have current - that would be interesting
18:14:35  <FLHerne> supermop: No, just graphics (and price, maybe)
18:14:44  <FLHerne> Current would be nice, but that's different
18:14:56  * FLHerne would like current :-)
18:14:59  <supermop> probably require lots of cpu as you'd need a pathfinder of some kind to produce a guess for water direction on each tile
18:16:10  <supermop> and would need to recalculate everytime a new tile of water was added or removed to the river to determine if it changes flow
18:16:34  <supermop> or even every time a tile was raised or lowered in its watershed
18:16:52  <supermop> to determine if the river gets more rain or less
18:17:37  <supermop> town growth also would increase flow - all that paved surface leads to rain entering the channel more quickly
18:18:12  *** roadt [~roadt@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:19:01  <FLHerne> That would be overkill :D
18:19:11  <Alberth> andythenorth: Also, with 1X, "within 3 months", is that relevant?
18:19:40  <andythenorth> possibly not
18:19:50  <andythenorth> the supplies rework is...unfinished...
18:19:59  <andythenorth> I don't recall a reason for the extra space {}
18:20:12  <andythenorth> usually there's a reason, but it might just be a mistake
18:20:24  <supermop> or maybe the ship pathfinder just guesses the water current of the channel it is in
18:20:55  <supermop> if heading toward a lock down, or sea increase speed and vis versa
18:21:33  <supermop> at least then you are only calculating for channels that have boats in them, but separately for each boat
18:22:10  <supermop> we should probably calculate land and water areas to model some wind currents for aircraft and sailboats
18:22:27  <FLHerne> Perhaps just pathfind to the nearest sea tile, and assume current is the other way?
18:22:50  <Alberth> unfortunately, the path finder won't know where it goes until it reaches the sea or lock
18:23:08  <FLHerne> Alberth: Why? :P
18:23:13  <Alberth> and what if you have contradicting directions?
18:23:25  <supermop> and then change windsock and smoke sprites accordingly
18:23:27  <FLHerne> That's why I said 'closest' :P
18:24:05  <Alberth> FLHerne: it does incremental steps, and does not revisit tiles it already visited
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18:24:41  <FLHerne> Does that matter? Presumably it must remember what the route was, or it would be a pointless PF :P
18:24:49  <Alberth> 'closest' implies you're doing path finding as a child algortihm to path finding
18:25:25  <supermop> better model geology to approximate aquifers too
18:25:26  <Alberth> yep, it stores the previous tile as part of each tile
18:25:33  <FLHerne> Just check if an adjacent tile is a sea tile, then if an adjacent tile to any adjacent watertile is a seatile... blah
18:25:37  <FLHerne> Would be slow :P
18:25:43  <andythenorth> wtf are smoke sprites?
18:25:59  <supermop> andythenorth: hehe
18:26:18  <andythenorth> Alberth: feel like code reviewing any of my new python code?
18:26:37  <Alberth> I am translating your firs strings
18:26:56  <Alberth> how much is it?
18:27:41  <Alberth> your new language reports are very useful :p
18:27:56  <andythenorth> my new language reports? :P
18:28:25  <supermop> also deleting a tile of river to cut it off should result in it flooding and finding a new path
18:28:44  <andythenorth> Alberth: it's here
18:28:57  <andythenorth> I'm planning to move the common stuff to one or more other modules
18:29:09  <andythenorth> but I figured code review before I do too much more :)
18:29:16  <andythenorth> the commenting style sucks
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18:29:56  <supermop> andythenorth: I am accidentally playing a game with two versions of fish in it
18:30:03  <andythenorth> happens
18:30:08  <andythenorth> will work fine
18:30:13  <supermop> i noticed that the boats are cheaper in one
18:30:16  <andythenorth> yes
18:30:23  <andythenorth> also the buy menu looks bad in one of them
18:30:23  <supermop> very long purchase list
18:30:30  <andythenorth> ask about eddi's buy menu fix :P
18:30:39  <supermop> i find i use the island trader too much though
18:31:11  <supermop> there is too big of a gap from the boats smaller than it up to the really big boats (1000 t or so)
18:31:11  <andythenorth> everyone does
18:31:23  <supermop> trader is like 320?
18:31:28  <andythenorth> basically I could remove everything but that boat
18:32:00  <supermop> i think there are some river barges between, but i'd like to see the odd modern (1950+) 500t boat
18:32:35  <supermop> or a less seaworthy boat similar in size to the trader
18:32:53  <supermop> i don't know enough about ships to know what that could be
18:33:21  <Alberth> indenting looks weird around line 109 and further at similar places
18:34:19  <Alberth> always interesting to name 'coords' 'sprites'  :p
18:34:33  <supermop> i am using the log rafts though!
18:34:50  <supermop> down a river actually
18:35:13  <supermop> where they perversely travel faster upstream than down
18:35:28  <Alberth> # optional zextent value, will default to 16 if this param is omitted  <-- i'd expect a comment in this direction at entries without zextent
18:36:07  <Alberth> supermop: there must be rivers that flow up in OpenTTD :)
18:37:35  <supermop> heh
18:38:13  <supermop> something like the tsubasa freighter but bigger would be nice
18:41:55  <andythenorth> oh yeah, indenting is weird there
18:42:00  <andythenorth> think I did a find-replace :P
18:42:04  <andythenorth> ta
18:42:05  <andythenorth> ]
18:42:19  <Alberth> andythenorth: code looks pretty good imho, I had a wicked plan to allow layout specification like in the paste lines 16-19
18:42:37  <supermop> that japanese thing that is like the cargosprinter -container emu
18:42:37  <supermop> how does that work? it runs on overhead, seems like the wires would get in the way of unloading the containers
18:42:37  <supermop> and if it gets pulled into the siding by a diesel shunter
18:42:37  <supermop> whats the point?
18:43:07  <andythenorth> Alberth: ho, using the actual spaces to specify position? :o
18:43:30  <Alberth> spaces is just for you, the machine uses "," and ";"
18:43:38  <andythenorth> ha
18:43:56  <andythenorth> so it's a type of matrix
18:44:09  <Alberth> a diagonal one
18:44:19  <andythenorth> could work
18:45:39  <andythenorth> I need to extend the layout to specify the tile too
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18:45:53  <andythenorth> the string there is the nml identifier for spriteset / next switch
18:45:57  <Alberth> hi Zuu
18:46:02  <andythenorth> lo Zuu
18:46:08  <Zuu> Hello
18:47:22  <Zuu> If a GS is allowed to create industries by bypassing the NewGRF industry probability veto, can that break the NewGRF badly?
18:47:26  <Alberth> obviously, you can have arbitrary text instead of numbers, except to look somewhat convingly diagonal, the identifiers should be short
18:47:37  <Zuu> This probability function is not used by the map gen.
18:47:59  <andythenorth> k
18:48:36  <andythenorth> so if I clean up this code, it can template any common case for climate-sensitive, animated industry graphics
18:48:37  <Alberth> Zuu: afaik there are 2 probabilities, one for map creation and one for play
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19:01:22  <Alberth> andythenorth:  STR_EXTRA_FERTILIZER_PLANT:  +chemicals  at the end ?
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19:26:26  <andythenorth> Alberth: yes good spot
19:26:54  <andythenorth> Zuu: that's a whole can of worms :D
19:27:22  <andythenorth> (a) in the case of FIRS, the probability breaks the newgrf anyway :P
19:28:39  <Zuu> Of course, it may give the situation when the GS can override the industry placement restrictions of the NewGRF. Such problems are to expect if the GS can override the NewGRF.
19:28:39  <andythenorth> (b) GS should be allowed to fund industries
19:28:59  <andythenorth> there are various options
19:29:15  <Zuu> However, unless that badly breaks normal NewGRFs, I don't see that its a problem.
19:29:26  <andythenorth> for example FIRS allows players to fund pretty much anywhere
19:29:40  <andythenorth> be careful not to over-ride the *tile* checks though :o
19:29:44  <andythenorth> that would be very bad
19:30:46  <Zuu> I only override this one "GetIndustryProbabilityCallback(it, IACT_USERCREATION, 1) == 0)"
19:31:07  <Zuu> What that translates to in NewGRF terms is beyond my knowledge :-)
19:31:07  <andythenorth> not sure anyone uses that yet anyway :P
19:31:11  <andythenorth> so might be moot point
19:31:14  <andythenorth> it's a recent addition
19:32:25  <Zuu> The other override is that GS always "fund" industries instead of "prospecting" them. In terms of that they can always specify a tile that they wish the industry to be placed at.
19:33:08  <Zuu> But there is no override of the further checks that apply when an industry is funded by a company.
19:34:27  <frosch123> Zuu: i guess you should overrule a newgrf saying "zero", i.e. "no construction"
19:34:37  <frosch123> the rest likely does not matter
19:36:43  <Eddi|zuHause> note that this is also a matter for the default industries (the tropic lumber mill has an appearance chance of 0)
19:36:45  <frosch123> *not
19:36:55  <frosch123> damn :/ missing a negation is bad :)
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19:37:57  <Zuu> The actual patch is here for those of you who read code:
19:38:58  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the industry construction callback needs a value for "random creation" "player creation" and "script creation"?
19:39:02  <frosch123> +	if (_game_mode != GM_EDITOR && _current_company != OWNER_DEITY && GetIndustryProbabilityCallback(it, IACT_USERCREATION, 1) == 0) { <- i don't think you should override that
19:39:15  <frosch123> i am even surprised it is allowed in editor :o
19:39:37  <Zuu> frosch123: I was not sure if that is a good idea which is why I asked here :-)
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19:39:59  <frosch123> it would allow gs to plant plastic plants in 1400
19:40:05  <frosch123> which probably would cause bug reports :)
19:40:18  <frosch123> gs would have no idea to tell the difference
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19:42:15  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the GS could have a flag "force creation anyway"?
19:42:32  <Zuu> I've not looked at it in detail but I suspect at least this return will cause a different error type than a construction that is failed due to "site usuitable"
19:42:49  <frosch123> Zuu: you seem to forbid DEITY to prospect industries
19:42:55  <frosch123> and make them to always fund them
19:43:03  <frosch123> +	if (_game_mode != GM_EDITOR && _current_company != OWNER_DEITY && == 2 && indspec->IsRawIndustry()) {
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19:43:40  <frosch123> if you want to give the gs both options to either fund or prospect, you need do pass something via the command parameters
19:43:42  <Zuu> frosch123: Yes, because otherwise I would need to pass that information to the DoCommand method.
19:43:44  <frosch123> to distinguish the two cases
19:44:00  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe GS could prospect if tile==0, otherwise fund?
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19:44:09  <Zuu> But I have been thinking about trying to do that as allowing a GS to prospect could be useful.
19:44:27  <Zuu> Not because its impossible to emulate, but to spare GS authors from having to implement that.
19:45:05  <andythenorth> so
19:45:09  <frosch123> well, if ottd needs 5000 tries to plant an ecs industry, a gs will take 10 years :p
19:45:16  <andythenorth> there are good and bad reasons to refuse an industry
19:45:27  <andythenorth> bad = too close to other industries etc
19:45:41  <andythenorth> good / bad /s for that one
19:45:54  <andythenorth> hmm
19:45:57  * andythenorth needs a beer
19:46:05  <andythenorth> this discussion always hurts my head
19:46:10  <andythenorth> just allow GS to do everything imho
19:46:10  <supermop> good plan
19:46:19  <supermop> the beer that is
19:46:23  <andythenorth> screw newgrf authors
19:46:28  * andythenorth is 99% serious
19:46:41  <andythenorth> industry newgrfs have been accorded way too much privilege
19:46:53  <andythenorth> but industry newgrfs are incapable of providing proper gameplay
19:46:55  <andythenorth> so let GS do it
19:47:14  <andythenorth> so we break some stuff
19:47:17  <andythenorth> [shrug]
19:47:20  <Zuu> Hmm, taking a new look at the parameters, even the p1 parameter seem to have free bits, so I do not even need to abuse the text parameter to send a "fund"/"prospect" bit.
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19:48:02  <frosch123> usually the docs at the top are correct for commands
19:48:18  <frosch123> they were looked at very critical multiple times :)
19:48:52  <Zuu> Last time I looked on this was like two weeks ago and my vague memory said that there was a problem to fit in that bit, but it appears to not be the reason why I chosen this path
19:49:12  <andythenorth> derailing the topic
19:49:15  <andythenorth> can we kill subtypes?
19:49:33  <andythenorth> or at least substitute user bits for the roles that subtypes are being abused for?
19:49:46  <andythenorth> with a depot-only 'change arbitrary properties' gui
19:49:53  <Zuu> If you ask me, yes. But others may dissagree.
19:51:21  <andythenorth> they're known broken for at least one case (somewhere on FS), they're silly
19:51:51  <andythenorth> and the purposes they're used for (liveries, regearing, vehicle length, etc) are not well served by subtype
19:52:02  <andythenorth> and autorefit 'breaks' lots of those features
19:52:10  <andythenorth> and autorefit is way better for gameplay than subtypes
19:52:25  <frosch123> andythenorth: stop annoying :s
19:53:06  <andythenorth> :P
19:55:47  * andythenorth rant over
19:55:51  <andythenorth> pub :)
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20:21:19  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24597 trunk/src/bootstrap_gui.cpp (2012-10-16 20:21:14 UTC)
20:21:20  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5336]: when fontconfig is not available, the bootstrap download crashed
20:32:20  <planetmaker> hm... I wonder whether that was the issue with osx having it crash, too
20:32:34  <TrueBrain> I understand you do hope that :D
20:32:36  <planetmaker> I'll try tomorrow... lappi is in the office
20:32:51  <Rubidium> planetmaker: unlikely
20:33:04  <planetmaker> TrueBrain, not sure... I recon I usually compiled with fontconfig
20:33:09  <Rubidium> -#if defined(ENABLE_NETWORK) && defined(WITH_FREETYPE) && !defined(__APPLE__)
20:33:09  <Rubidium> +#if defined(ENABLE_NETWORK) && defined(WITH_FREETYPE) && !defined(__APPLE__) && (defined(WITH_FONTCONFIG) || defined(WIN32))
20:33:28  <frosch123> maybe they stopped defining __APPLE__
20:33:29  <Rubidium> the crashy code is already excluded if __APPLE__ is defined
20:33:55  <planetmaker> well, yes. As bootstrap is excluded for apple for reasons of crashyness
20:33:57  <Rubidium> frosch123: but then more stuff would've broken
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20:34:20  <frosch123> Rubidium: isn't that the case? :p
20:34:48  <Rubidium> frosch123: stdafx.h is littered with defined(__APPLE__)
20:35:56  <Rubidium> so if Apple doesn't define __APPLE__, much more things will be broken
20:36:30  <__ln__> and not only in openttd
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20:42:27  <Alberth> maybe apple stopped being __APPLE__ :p
20:44:16  <__ln__> it's an absurd idea that after 20+ years apple would suddenly stop defining __APPLE__. end of discussion.
20:44:29  <Alberth> haha!
20:45:30  <LordAro> that's never stopped them before...
20:56:29  <glx> they would at least declare it obsolete before dropping it
20:57:26  <FLHerne> glx: Really?
20:58:04  <glx> yes like they do when they totally change UI systems
20:58:22  <__ln__> FLHerne: Really. It's not Linux kernel.
20:58:58  <glx> every new OSX version deprecates many APIs from previous versions
20:59:18  <glx> and the next one just drop them
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21:01:28  <__ln__> and by contrast, Microsoft never drops anything from the WinAPI. good and bad sides in both approaches.
21:01:37  <glx> and you are forced to rewrite things that used to work again and again
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21:02:49  <glx> that's why it's hard to find an OSX maintainer ;)
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21:03:35  <__ln__> basically yes, but you can compile against an older SDK, so you can stay at the level of at least one or two releases earlier than the current OS you're running.
21:07:55  <Rubidium> I think OSX and maintainer are mutually exclusive
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21:09:09  <__ln__> @seen Bjarni
21:09:09  <DorpsGek> __ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 1 week, 3 days, 20 hours, 50 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
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21:14:22  <BadBrett> 4-4 :)
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21:25:42  <Eddi|zuHause> =0
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21:28:33  <Terkhen> good night
21:28:43  <planetmaker> night Terkhen
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21:38:02  <Wolf01> 'night
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