Log for #openttd on 6th November 2012:
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00:33:52  <krinn> one question before bed : a break will get me out of a two foreach loop ?
00:35:06  <glx> only current loop
00:35:19  <krinn> ah ok, thank you glx
00:36:01  <krinn> night all, sleep well
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02:05:26  <drac_boy> hi
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02:07:07  * drac_boy pokes flygon to get amoving already
02:07:27  <Flygon> I'm busy working on a comission
02:07:54  <drac_boy> oh...still on that? :-s
02:08:06  <Flygon> It's a 7 page comic series
02:09:21  <drac_boy> flygon btw before I forget either way..I don't know if I had mentioned it but some of the french locomotives had odd designs .. usually never repeated just as well
02:09:44  <Flygon> I know x3
02:09:47  <Flygon> I've seen
02:10:01  <drac_boy> one of these was .. well .. how do you put it this way ... a compound locomotive that was basically a standard 2-6-0 but had a low pressure piston on left side and high pressure piston on right side instead
02:10:39  <drac_boy> compounding really works better with two pairs of two pistons (total 4 yeah) when it comes to locomotives anyway
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02:12:10  <Flygon> Hmmm
02:12:12  <Flygon> An experiment?
02:12:20  <drac_boy> nope...small fleet of them
02:12:40  <Flygon> It musta worked well
02:13:07  <drac_boy> but either way I don't really know of examples oversea that well but I do know usa (mostly B&O weird enough) had tried water-tubed boilers but most of the times they were soon rebuilt with a conventional boiler instead
02:13:28  <drac_boy> not sure what the main fault was with such a design, articles never said much
02:14:45  <Flygon> The tubes must have cracked easily
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02:15:14  <drac_boy> and while we're on B&O locomotives .. they also tried a strange idea that again was junked and rebuilt as conventional .... I forgot the name for it but to put it short .. you had the normal cab firebox ... then a short section of boiler tubes ... a second box of some sort and second section of boiler tubes
02:15:35  <drac_boy> the middle section never operated so well which explains the idea being written off
02:16:03  <drac_boy> wonder if they had thought there was some additional efficency in that or not when they first tried it
02:16:05  <Supercheese> a reheat section?
02:16:13  <drac_boy> supercheese something like that yeah
02:16:21  <Supercheese> that would require a second set of cylinders, no?
02:16:29  <Flygon> I'm sorry if I don't reply
02:16:32  <Flygon> I'm quite busy
02:17:02  <drac_boy> firebox fed the first pipe which then emptied into the middle box which then was feeding the second pipe .. which then finally did go to the pistons
02:17:17  <drac_boy> thats why it wasn't too hard to rebuilt them as normal boilers after the idea started flopping
02:17:34  <Supercheese> Hmm, odd indeed
02:17:51  <drac_boy> I'm trying to see if i can find something of it online btw
02:17:59  <Supercheese> I thought maybe they had the steam run from high pressure cylinders back to the boiler for reheat before heading to the low pressure cylinders, or something
02:23:59  <drac_boy> hm not sure where to find it atm...maybe I'll check my magazines tomorrow if its still there
02:25:50  <drac_boy> supercheese here does not mention the B&O locomotives but still ... kinda quite different from a normal boiler
02:26:04  <drac_boy> I'm surprised two uk locomotives are directly mentioned tho :P
02:27:22  <Supercheese> "Most were compounds" ; that makes sense
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02:28:48  <drac_boy> supercheese if you want something that was really mechanically a major flip then try this....
02:29:19  <drac_boy> thats a single-turbine locomotive with a small reversing turbine sticking out the side (you can see it obviously) ...
02:30:19  <drac_boy> sure it was good for heavy fast passenger trains but the main problem with such a direct single-speed turbine could suck working pressure quite fast because unlike the piston valves theres nothing to restrain "endless" steam inlet to the turbine
02:30:53  <drac_boy> turbines had always been better off on boats alone where weight was not a concern so it was easy to have a multi-turbines setup (where it progressed from a small to large turbine as power required)
02:31:36  <drac_boy> even then some ships still had a small conventional diesel genset for these moments where the small turbine isn't really needed but theres no land power hookups tho if you get the idea
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02:35:49  <drac_boy> supercheese sometimes if you look for a ship turbine online you'll notice that its several sets of blades whether same or different sizes ... thats always the way its been :)
02:36:31  <Supercheese> I wonder if anyone ever tried running a cogenerative gas turbine locomotive
02:36:47  <Supercheese> run the boiler using the hot exhaust from the gas turbine
02:37:17  <drac_boy> heres something that has a lot of power settings from one to so many blades at once depending :P
02:37:23  <Supercheese> probably would have been ridiculously complex
02:37:42  <drac_boy> I suspect the middle two blades are transitional blades to "switch" shaft speed .. not sure tho
02:38:14  <Supercheese> Well, that's not a steam turbine
02:38:26  <drac_boy> true .. still more or less same design :)
02:38:27  <Supercheese> hmm
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02:39:05  <drac_boy> here you can see seperate set of different-sized (aka different hp outputs)
02:39:15  <drac_boy> and yeah thats one big ship indeed
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02:40:41  <drac_boy> supercheese ... btw what you're asking for is pretty much what some powerplants are actually set up as ... initially the fuel is fed to turbine then the waste heat is fed to boiler which only simply boosts the generator output big time
02:41:02  <drac_boy> its a bulky heavy setup so its best for fixed-location purposes such as naturally a powerplant
02:41:31  <drac_boy> its a good way to get more power out of less coal tho heh
02:43:26  <Supercheese> Well, some locomotives were so damn huge they might have been able to pull it off
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02:43:42  <drac_boy> only in usa or russia .. and I mean that :P
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02:43:53  <drac_boy> anywhere else .. you're too likely to run into track weight limit problems
02:43:56  <drac_boy> ;)
02:44:15  <Supercheese> true enough
02:44:52  <drac_boy> its a reason why certain locomotives when imported were different ... sometimes for a diesel locomotive it was mainly re getting A1A instead of B trucks as to just make it fit under the axle loading restriction
02:45:50  <drac_boy> or during WWII .. some of the american locomotives sent to uk looked rather weird with their scrunized-down boiler and cab due to the smaller loading gauge they used there :)
02:46:31  <drac_boy> actually there was one railroad in the 1950s that had one such for-uk-but-never-was-actually-sent-there locomotive next to a conventional one ...and even although the two were supposed to be the same they still looked very different
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02:47:19  <drac_boy> the for-uk one having a much lower boiler almost stradding the flanges instead of the chassis ... a short cab that didn't have much view out the top, only the side windows alone ... and even the smokestack had been chopped
02:47:31  <drac_boy> it figures after all supercheese :)
02:50:05  <drac_boy> supercheese which of heres something else: that was what they called "Little Joe" in refer to stalin at the times .. these were built by GE and were supposed to be sent oversea but then sddenly the embargo happened .. so GE sold them to any usa buyer for cheap ... only thing not included in the price was that the rail's own shop had to completely rewire them for
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02:50:07  <drac_boy> usa-normal 1500VDC or 11000VAC voltages instead
02:51:01  <drac_boy> on one particular illinois railroad they were too good that they could overload the substations so to avoid problem with the commuter trams .. they were more or less neglected to only early afternoon and night workings where there was more juice for them
02:52:20  <drac_boy> at least GE managed to not have to scrap them which would had been a sad waste
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02:53:43  <Supercheese> Hah, they overtaxed the power grid, kinda like those huge draglines, eh?
02:54:01  <Supercheese> Fire one of those up at the wrong time of day, boom instant brownout
02:55:05  <drac_boy> supercheese you have to remember that the illinois railroad was only a small-medium time trolley/freight with 1500VDC system ... so a huge locomotive like one of these 'Little Joe' rstarting a heavy freight train at 4pm could throw a wrench into the substation load level
02:55:50  <drac_boy> but at eg 2pm or 9pm there was very few other trains running around in the city so it was easy to leave a lot of juice for these locomotive to kick heavy trains with ease
02:57:35  <drac_boy> the 11000VAC railroads in northeast usa didn't have the problem because they were designed as heavy duty system in the first place (how else could you explain 6+ passenger GG1's and another several freight trains running at the same time in a specific 10km block power section? :)
02:57:46  <drac_boy> getting the idea now supercheese?
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02:58:22  <Supercheese> yep
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02:59:23  <drac_boy> supercheese which of about electric and fast trains....
03:01:34  <drac_boy> supercheese what would you think of a specific trainset that was designed to run fast in the open country on normal dedicated rails and overhead power but then at the end cities suddenly be able to draw off third rail power instead as it squeezed around sharp curves and street-shared rails?
03:02:59  * drac_boy has three images to share if you're still wondering
03:03:09  <Supercheese> sounds sort of like a modern interurban
03:03:35  <drac_boy> thats it running out in the open .. probably doing its usual 80+mph speed too ..*vbeYhJlGDM-EaSLAa1Jmm7CRgaCE6WWQD/cnsm801a.jpg
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03:03:52  <drac_boy> now becoming a lot slower as it closes downtown at one of the city
03:04:26  <drac_boy> and then finally squeezing through the elevated lines to reach its main station somewhere a few blocks to the right or something
03:05:48  <drac_boy> notice how theres no wires to be seen in the third photo which clearly make you look down to see all the third rail "mess" thats obviously visible ;)
03:07:45  <Supercheese> Wish we could do that in OTTD
03:07:54  <drac_boy> this is just in theory but if you tried define such a similar trainset in uk .. it might had been something that would use overhead wires up to just outside london then crawl onward at much lower top speed through the LUL tunnels to reach the downtown station :p
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03:08:10  <drac_boy> but I don't know if anyone over there would had really wanted to try such an idea heh!
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03:09:15  <drac_boy> supercheese you theriocally could do it with a mod to the 2cc trainset grf .. just creat a multi-sections locomotive where one section is coded for overhead power and another section is coded for the third rail tracks ... then the other sections are just unpowered wagons
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03:09:24  <drac_boy> I have no idea how plausible or buggy that may be tho
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03:10:23  <drac_boy> btw supercheese if you want to know .. that train above was called the Electroliner and one full set is actually still preserved somewhere :)
03:10:29  <drac_boy> nice name after all heh
03:12:04  <drac_boy> supercheese before i forget .. its not a famous train or anything .. but the Class 321 in uk was certainly a dual overhead+thirdrail locomotive tho ... and if you missed that discussion before it apparently had to do with lack of clearance in a particular tunnel so they laid third rail through it instead
03:12:16  <Supercheese> I meant the rails-in-road and elevated rails
03:12:21  <Supercheese> we already have dual-powered locos
03:12:26  <drac_boy> heh ok :)
03:12:54  <Supercheese> yeah I think UKRS has that loco
03:12:58  <drac_boy> well elevated lines were quite common in chicago ... called the L line most of the times ... after all subways were too difficult
03:12:59  <Supercheese> or similar
03:13:08  <drac_boy> here's the crazy thing about the L line tho....
03:14:01  <Supercheese> oh it's class 313
03:14:07  <Supercheese>
03:14:17  <drac_boy> they had no signals or anything .. everything pretty much more or less operated to timetables so .. it could be a bit crazy to think that trains were only minutes apart even if one was supposed to take a siding for a station stop while the one chasing behind it does not make the same station stop neither
03:14:30  <drac_boy> call it controlled chaos I would imagine :)
03:14:51  <drac_boy> it surprisingly ran just like that for so many years so .... obviously they had it down pretty well
03:15:03  <Supercheese> Yeah, if they had a clean safety record, more power to them
03:17:55  <drac_boy> supercheese theres also another thing with the chicago elevated line....
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03:18:05  <drac_boy> guess what? it was not always passengers :P
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03:18:18  <drac_boy> usually ran at night but sometimes may appear at quiet time during the day too tho
03:19:07  <drac_boy> the locomotives were specifically built for the elevated line duty with overhead+thirdshoe .. but the freight wagons otherwise were just the normal ones forwarded by random freight yards outside chicago
03:19:23  <drac_boy> you can notice how the locomotive seem to have both pole and pantograph indeed
03:20:09  <drac_boy> there were only two locomotives alone in the last several years of service.. numbered S-103 and S-104 .. they could mu together for heavier trains tho
03:20:51  * drac_boy only knew this because of having a magazine article of someone who experienced these trains at a young age and eventually ended up working for them up to its last year of service!
03:21:35  <drac_boy> funny enough the article mentioned that usually S-104 was used if only one locomotive was needed because S-103 sometimes had the bad twitches (as in not always running steady I think)
03:23:21  <drac_boy> supercheese ...a different topic if you don't mind ....
03:24:44  <drac_boy> you know of the old story about dr jekyll and hyde?
03:26:48  <Supercheese> aye
03:27:15  <drac_boy> supercheese heh well some of the older steam locomotives on usa branchlines could be a bit like THAT silly enough..sometimes even shared their stories years later too
03:28:35  <drac_boy> I mean what else when you have a quiet easy locomotive while shoving freights in and out of the industry tracks?  well .. wait till you get your train together to head out of town on the old tracks at any speed ... it'll become a hyde with so much cab swaying it could throw someone out of the cab easily if they weren't holding onto something firm!
03:28:49  <Supercheese> Well, Jekyll/Hyde is British, so I figured the railway analogue would be something like Sir Gresley and Dr. Beeching ;)
03:29:18  <drac_boy> in at least one case the article write was the fireman on one such tender locomotive ... he stated that the tender plate was up more of the times than it was down .... !
03:29:27  <drac_boy> talk about really rough ride :)
03:29:39  <Supercheese> Sounds like it needed shock absorbers :P
03:29:59  <drac_boy> supercheese...not soon as the continous running ended .. everything became steady again .. so :)
03:30:23  <drac_boy> still I mean could you imagine how bad a track has to be to keep the tender footplate bouncing in a upward position so much? :P
03:30:56  <drac_boy> talk about a jekyll/hyde like behaviour indeed
03:32:53  <drac_boy> anyway supercheese I'm going to bed...have fun looking up more strange train things yourself if you want to tho ok?  :P
03:32:55  <drac_boy> bye now
03:33:15  <Supercheese> vale, amice
03:33:44  * drac_boy wonders why you can't just speak english alone all the times. anyway goodnight :P
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07:32:20  <__ln__> god morgon
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07:35:33  <__ln__> och god svenska dagen
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07:45:58  <RavingManiac> Mi ne komprenas
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07:50:21  <NGC3982> Someone said rusty?
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07:50:44  <NGC3982> __ln__: That's not even possible to correct.
07:51:06  <NGC3982> Unless it's "God dag" you are after.
07:52:06  <__ln__> men det Àr "svenska dagen" i dag!
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07:53:55  <__ln__> the intergalactic swedish day.
07:55:00  <NGC3982> It is?
07:55:01  <NGC3982> Neat.
07:56:08  <andythenorth> la la la
07:56:11  <andythenorth> new mines from DanMacK
07:56:20  <andythenorth> pixels are falling from the sky
07:57:03  <NGC3982> __ln__: Using an attribute or an adjective right before that would force you to compress it. "God Sverige-dag" for instance.
07:57:45  <__ln__> no, no, certainly not "Sverige-dag", but "the day of Swedishness"
07:58:14  <RavingManiac> This AI
07:58:17  <NGC3982> "God dag av Svenskhet?"
07:58:19  <NGC3982> haha
07:58:21  <NGC3982> Haha*
07:58:23  <__ln__> NGC3982:
07:58:24  <RavingManiac> Is preventing me from building through its road
07:58:34  <RavingManiac> because the fucking road is completely filled with buses
07:58:42  <NGC3982> __ln__: Svenska dagen != Svenskadagen.
07:59:56  <__ln__> i never said "Svenskadagen"
08:00:01  <NGC3982> No, i noticed.
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08:02:18  <NGC3982> Although: The litteral translation for "Svenska dagen" is "A Swedish day". The litteral translation of "Svenskadagen" is "The day of Swedish".
08:02:46  <NGC3982> Thus, using "God Svenska dagen" does not work.
08:02:52  <NGC3982> Congratulations, by the way.
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08:03:27  <__ln__> to whom? it's not my day.
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08:04:08  <NGC3982> I see
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09:11:25  <Terkhen> good morning
09:16:36  <Flygon> Yo
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10:23:29  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> pixels are falling from the sky <-- they used to be called "snow flakes" :p
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11:16:39  <planetmaker> moin
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11:22:58  <Flygon> Huomenta
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11:37:34  <Flygon> You know what'd be nice?
11:37:38  <Flygon> Groups inside groups
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12:11:42  <NGC3982> Groupception?
12:16:45  <__ln__> it's been rumoured the Apollo moon walks were filmed on earth, in a studio... but i know of a potentially much bigger hoax, if it's true!
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12:34:31  <NGC3982> ..
12:35:49  <__ln__> there's some evidence that all of Star Trek is filmed on earth, in a studio!
12:36:47  <NGC3982> Jee-wiz
12:36:50  <__ln__> or would perhaps "sound stage" be the more accurate word for studio...
12:39:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a counter-theory: there is evidence that some scenes in star trek are CGI and never really happened, neither in a studio nor in outer space
12:40:33  <__ln__> that's ridiculous
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12:52:16  <NGC3982> Preposterous!
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13:29:11  <dada__> should maybe be a hotkey for "release next vehicle in depot", would be useful in timing their release
13:34:54  <Eddi|zuHause> what's "next"?
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13:49:11  <DanMacK> Hey all
14:01:20  <supermop> hi
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14:19:48  <Belugas> hello
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14:34:05  <drac_boy> hi
14:34:41  * drac_boy wonders where that silly cheese is and chunks a firewood piece at flygon instead
14:35:00  <Flygon> I'd throw the comission at you
14:35:05  <Flygon> But you'd be so terrified
14:35:10  <Flygon> That you wanna tear your eyes out
14:35:18  <drac_boy> heh heh
14:35:26  <drac_boy> you're just as silly as me sometimes :)
14:35:37  <drac_boy> so..hows the comic strips coming along?
14:35:38  <Flygon> NGC3982: I'm being quite serious. eg. I want a group for a specific area. And then subgroups for routes inside the area.
14:35:46  <Flygon> drac_boy: One page to go
14:36:08  <drac_boy> you mean in the vehicle lists?
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14:39:07  <drac_boy> flygon?
14:39:16  <Flygon> Yes
14:39:17  <NGC3982> Flygon: I guess that's a good idea, if more then one man will use it. ;)
14:40:05  <drac_boy> flygon hmm well I don't know because in first place I've never used groups much because the list is always sorted by name instead
14:41:14  <Flygon> Ah
14:41:26  <Flygon> NGC3982: I may not be the only!
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14:47:24  <drac_boy> flygon it doesn't take too much to figure out something like 'berlin bahn w 4' anyway ;)
14:47:55  <Flygon> drac_boy: I actually ask the feature for ease of refreshing old rollingstock :p
14:47:55  <drac_boy> long version of the name: fourth short train on a shuttle route west of berlin
14:48:04  <Flygon> Ah
14:48:05  <Flygon> Here
14:48:26  <Flygon> The same car configuration goes across 95% of the suburban network
14:48:39  <Flygon> 3+3 of either Hitachi, Comeng, Siemens, or X'trap
14:48:46  <Flygon> Guess which wasn't named after a compan
14:48:58  <Flygon> company*
14:50:41  <drac_boy> btw flygon about experimental trains that had short life....
14:52:37  <drac_boy> there was a short attempt at lightweight articulated trainsets on NYC and NH rails .. they had tube-like coaches that were much lower than conventional coaches etc ...
14:53:01  <drac_boy> both only ran for a short time then were slidelined for good, this is the NH one ... and guess the weird part...
14:53:20  <Flygon> Lightweight trailers hauled by locomotives?
14:53:29  <drac_boy> on the press run for the NH one ... the train caught fire just outside the station ... who would had thought this would point to its then-short life? :)
14:53:39  <Flygon> Oh wow
14:53:40  <Flygon> Hahaha
14:53:45  <Flygon> Never
14:53:50  <drac_boy> and btw the locomotives were special diesel-hydraulic ones created to match these new trainsets
14:53:51  <Flygon> Do a press release with a train
14:54:08  <Flygon> It killed the APT, it killed the V/Line Bluebird (Gearbox overheated, and nearly blew up)
14:54:09  <drac_boy> they had a small engine in defer of the much lighter train
14:54:15  <Flygon> Oh good god
14:54:16  <Flygon> Hahaha
14:54:41  <drac_boy> it worked actually .. the problem was the general reliability of the train in general tho
14:55:08  <drac_boy> 900hp in each end plus 'modern' wagons that weighted half as much as a normal coach
14:55:18  <Flygon> Oh
14:55:19  <Flygon> 900hp
14:55:39  <Flygon> ...that's more powerful than V/Line's P-class services :D
14:55:56  <drac_boy> you have to remember that the early Zephyr was a 5-car trainset with only a single 500-600hp powerplant up front .. it worked still :)
14:56:27  <drac_boy> the original 3-car one was even smaller distilled fuel (not diesel) engine
14:56:46  <Flygon> It didn't have to go on lines that were also occupied by 160-200km/h trains :p
14:57:27  <drac_boy> flygon btw the Zephyr actually was meant to do 70+mph ... it had to otherwise it would had never held competition in the battle for speed with milwaukee and C&NW
14:57:47  <drac_boy> the three railroads had more or less the same two endpoints but different routes inbetween
14:58:00  <Flygon> Seems wasteful
14:58:17  <drac_boy> not surprisingly C&NW actually touted '400 miles in 400 minutes' .. guess what kind of speed that was?
14:58:27  <drac_boy> flygon...with so much passengers to move it actually was the norm
14:58:35  <Flygon> Wow
14:59:01  <Flygon> 60mph?
14:59:04  <Flygon> 100km/h?
14:59:25  <drac_boy> flygon...add in the many intermidate station stops .. and you have to do with a much higher average speed
14:59:30  <drac_boy> so take a second guess
15:00:24  <Flygon> 130-160km/h??
15:00:34  <drac_boy> its no wonder the famous F7 locomotives were known for doing 80+mph runs easily. heres a photo if you need to remember what a F7 was again:
15:00:43  <drac_boy> flygon yeah there you go :)
15:00:58  <Flygon> Puts Australia to shame :p
15:01:10  <drac_boy> flygon theres another thing to think about....
15:02:05  <drac_boy> just before the 1920s most trains were always the slow conventional trains ... there was no serious attempt at speedups ... but then the 1930 depression hit ... and by the 1930s it seem like everyone want to try outdo each others which explained all the bursts of modern fast trains
15:02:33  <drac_boy> even B&O was in the act too as obvious by the very early pre-FT diesels from emd .. then there being the many different Zephyr's .. etc
15:04:09  <drac_boy> of course 1940 almost everything had to come to an end .. axed track maintenance and higher loadings both altogether made speed take a backseat
15:04:18  <Flygon> Heh
15:04:37  <Flygon> Shame WWII happened...
15:04:39  <drac_boy> so what used to be a limited-stop 80mph express soon became a heavyweights-mixed all-stopping 50mph train
15:04:52  <Flygon> America could have had a Shinkansen revolution by 1945
15:05:01  <Flygon> Well
15:05:06  <drac_boy> flygon...mind you there were a few things in uk that 'would had been' if WWII had not happened ....
15:05:07  <Flygon> North-East, anyway
15:05:17  <Flygon> Such as UK-wide electrification
15:05:19  <Flygon> Yes, I know
15:05:30  <Flygon> Man, if WWII didn't happen
15:05:48  <Flygon> Australia would have probably tried to build 4-16-4 steam locomotives by 1955 :p
15:05:55  <drac_boy> gresley was working on a new mallard but that was cut due to war .. and the funny thing was SR was trying to push ahead on electrification but war put a break on that which only meant southern steam was saved
15:06:40  <drac_boy> and of course the V2's (the one that had the monoblocks yeah) got a bit punished by overloaded trains during the war that its not a surprise only a few were in good condition after the war
15:07:02  <drac_boy> eg a single train of 22 coaches unassisted .. thats a lot for one locomotive :-s
15:07:41  <Flygon> It rather is!
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15:08:16  <Flygon> I feel sorry for the shoveler
15:09:13  <drac_boy> flygon btw WWII may have helped rail traffics in usa but .. post-war was a rapid shamble ... overegulated by the govs did not help things much .. thats why two major railroads really went bankrupt big time .. and the 1971 amtrak act was mainly a move to save the remaining freight trains from disappearing
15:09:37  <Flygon> Indeed
15:09:44  <plhalaser> hi i want ask its here someone who have mingw/msys on 64bit win7?
15:09:52  <drac_boy> of course there was the creation of Conrail which rather needed a LOT of government money (think billions) its first few years but soon finally proved itself as a lean profitting company that soon was privatized
15:11:14  <Flygon> (for some fun, take a second to realize that one of the only 'fast trains' in the world allowed to go over 115-130km/h in Australia is the American Alcoa Express: All the others fail to tick all the boxes that Australian regulation wants ticked)
15:11:26  <Flygon> (usually crashworthiness)
15:12:13  <drac_boy> flygon the two major rails that disappeared was Rock Island due to overregulation ineptness and PC (which was really PRR+NH to start with by then) being undone finally by doctored books -- they were actually losing more than M per day!!
15:12:40  <Flygon> (this is something Cityrail realized when they tried to import a set of trains from China, instead of Australia, to get them faster and cheaper... only to find out they needed to extensively rebuild the brand new delivered trains just so they could be legally run on test runs. The end result ended up costing more and running years overtime)
15:13:45  <drac_boy> when you remember that PRR and NH altogether owned a billion of routes in northeast usa which was the industry hotspot of usa before .. you can understand how crazy their bankruptions must had been
15:15:05  <drac_boy> btw if you didn't know: Conrail is long gone, its CSX and NS altogether who owns different pieces of what used to be Conrail's network
15:15:21  <Flygon> Urf...
15:15:26  <Flygon> Just a personal note
15:15:35  <Flygon> I've never been a fan of splitting rail companies apart
15:15:50  <Flygon> Best to keep them state or nationally owned, along with the tracks
15:16:16  <drac_boy> flygon I know but it was a crazy bidding war .. CSX initially thought it was getting it but NS made a surprising higher bid ... raged on for a bit of while then finally it was more or less a split bid
15:16:21  <Flygon> V/Line nearly imploded because the state Government tried to split and privatize it...
15:16:23  <drac_boy> so thats why the dividing up
15:16:35  <Flygon> Ah
15:18:19  <drac_boy> flygon mind you one particular set of mergers in usa was ... just a bad mess
15:18:27  <Flygon> Hm?
15:19:14  <drac_boy> first it used to be that SP took over D&RGW .. that one was ok at the end but still needing some more work ... but UP took SP and major meltdowns started :-s
15:20:49  <Flygon> Meltdowns?
15:21:45  <drac_boy> yeah as in stuck up yards and other things? :)
15:21:59  <Flygon> Far out
15:22:02  <Flygon> Sounds like fuuun
15:23:08  <plhalaser> need some help with install xz or lzma. mingw dont want a make config without lzma and without lzma a get same error as is on wiki page
15:24:28  <drac_boy> flygon of course there was the attempted SP/SF which was strongly denied
15:24:43  <Flygon> Just a note
15:24:47  <Flygon> I really must sleep sooooon x.x
15:24:50  <Flygon> TAFE tomorrow
15:24:53  <drac_boy> interestingly enough some locomotives had already been painted into the new SF name+colours
15:24:58  <Flygon> Gotta wake up @ 10, and it's 2:24 x:
15:25:24  <drac_boy> ok bye then flygon
15:25:30  <Flygon> Thank you
15:25:34  <Flygon> And sorry
15:26:15  * drac_boy whacks you with a pillow
15:26:17  <drac_boy> :P
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15:50:28  <andythenorth> hi hi
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15:54:35  <NGC3982> Evening.
15:55:06  <drac_boy> hi andythenorth
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16:07:42  <DanMacK> Hey Andy
16:07:49  <andythenorth> hi DanMacK
16:09:22  <DanMacK> YGM
16:09:42  <andythenorth> yeah, so "not buildable" makes sense
16:10:00  <DanMacK> thought so
16:12:06  <andythenorth> mines are nice
16:12:15  <andythenorth> opengfx shades the roofs wrong
16:12:19  <andythenorth> I'll fix all that ;)
16:12:46  <andythenorth> I have code working for 'graphics by date'
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16:12:58  <andythenorth> although opinion here was that it is a bad feature
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16:15:49  <DanMacK> graphics by date?
16:15:59  <andythenorth> yup
16:16:09  <DanMacK> why is that a bad feature?
16:16:13  <andythenorth> dunno :)
16:16:26  <andythenorth> I didn't do a good job of finding out tbh
16:16:36  <andythenorth> code works for it though
16:16:45  <DanMacK> have it as a parameter for those that don't want it
16:17:39  <planetmaker> andythenorth, "graphics by date" is not really a bad feature... should it?
16:17:55  <planetmaker> it just depends on how it's used... after all we do that with grain mill e.g. already, not?
16:18:15  <planetmaker> it just should be made sure that the build date of the industry is used. Not the current date.
16:18:54  <planetmaker> otoh, if layouts are time-dependently introduced... doesn't matter even then
16:18:54  <DanMacK> The upgrading graphics that TTRS uses...  is that possible w/industries?
16:19:13  <planetmaker> upgrading in what sense? But the answer 99.5% is "yes"
16:19:31  <DanMacK> the animated exploding of the old hispital building for instance
16:19:42  <planetmaker> yes, that's feasible
16:19:43  <DanMacK> and new buildings built
16:19:57  <DanMacK> so an industry can change appearance over time
16:20:27  <planetmaker> would work via animation frames
16:20:44  <DanMacK> any way to trigger it for a certain date?
16:21:01  <planetmaker> yes.
16:21:11  <andythenorth> the way I've coded it is based on years
16:21:25  <planetmaker> case date of:
16:21:28  <andythenorth> after date xxxx, graphics change
16:21:31  * DanMacK thinks construction graphics had better be drawn before destruction ones
16:21:32  <planetmaker> 0...1950: frame 0
16:21:45  <planetmaker> 1950: animate_reconstruction_switch;
16:21:50  <planetmaker> 1951: frame 3
16:22:17  <planetmaker> along those lines at least
16:22:30  <andythenorth> I do it by switching spriteset
16:22:40  <plhalaser> hi i need a little help with install xz or lzma on mingw, i install everything as on wiki step by step. i try to use 64 bit version. problem is when i try to make config before make of openttd i get error lzma not found, when i use without lzma, make made same error as is on bottom page on wiki
16:22:48  <andythenorth> as the sprites may be animated already ;)
16:23:20  <planetmaker> yes, works the same, andythenorth ^
16:23:37  <planetmaker> andythenorth, but reconstruction is an animation sequence itself. need be
16:23:53  <planetmaker> unless you want to base it really on days. not years. Also feasible
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16:24:36  <andythenorth> maybe we don't need reconstruction :)
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16:25:11  <planetmaker> andythenorth, a simple flip of graphics would look very odd. Then I'd prefer to not change looks
16:25:20  <planetmaker> and only use new looks for newly founded industries
16:25:27  <planetmaker> -1 ;-)
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16:25:55  <andythenorth> ok
16:26:00  <andythenorth> useful feedback thanks
16:26:11  <andythenorth> I think it is weird if entire building changes all at once
16:26:19  <planetmaker> yup, that ^
16:26:23  <andythenorth> especially as currently there is no random offset for each industry instance
16:26:29  <DanMacK> Agreed
16:26:31  <andythenorth> e.g. in 1960 all instances change
16:26:49  <andythenorth> in many cases the changes will be small, e.g. steam crane -> diesel crane
16:26:50  <DanMacK> That happens in TTRS, but there's animation to go with it
16:27:03  <andythenorth> yeah, I think animation is out of scope for 49+ industries
16:27:07  <planetmaker> andythenorth, what would work is to draw maybe one destruction stage and then just change to the 1st or 0th (however you count) construction stage of the new look
16:27:21  <andythenorth> we don't even have snow done yet, and zero construction states done
16:27:31  <planetmaker> ok, changes steam crane -> diesel crane needs no special change. That's of course ok
16:27:39  <DanMacK> long term thoughts in my head :P
16:27:41  <andythenorth> borrow the explosion sprites from base set for destruction? :P
16:27:50  <planetmaker> of course feasible. No problem
16:27:53  <andythenorth> and use a palette transform to black?
16:27:58  <planetmaker> why?
16:28:22  <andythenorth> for the building sprite ;)
16:28:23  <planetmaker> it'd be like using bulldozer... so why would it be black and not firey?
16:28:25  <andythenorth> few frames of black
16:28:32  <andythenorth> with explosion overlay
16:28:36  <andythenorth> like crashed trains
16:28:59  <planetmaker> ah... hm... ... rather empty tile then
16:29:03  <planetmaker> after the explosion
16:29:48  <planetmaker> plhalaser, not sure which page and error you refer to nor do I use mingw or windows myself. But likely the lib is not in your path (or not installed at all)
16:29:52  * DanMacK thinks andy is right about snow/construction stages
16:30:59  <planetmaker> But using an explosion and displaying an empty tile afterwards for some time might work
16:31:06  <andythenorth> he
16:31:10  <andythenorth> well, we'll see
16:31:16  <planetmaker> :-)
16:31:31  <andythenorth> the option of going by build date is easier :)
16:31:35  <andythenorth> btw, construction stages I might have a plan for
16:31:41  <DanMacK> Andy, have you got a pile driver sprite?
16:31:42  <andythenorth> involving plain ground with bulldozers
16:31:52  <andythenorth> I have a crane
16:31:57  <DanMacK> can be modded
16:32:05  <andythenorth> hang on, there have been sprites for construction states for about 3 years
16:32:07  <andythenorth> I'll find them
16:32:40  <DanMacK> PM them to me (or upload)
16:32:44  <DanMacK> please :)
16:32:46  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I have also a crane... extracted from TTRS
16:32:49  <andythenorth>
16:32:51  <DanMacK> I have a few ideas
16:32:56  <planetmaker> the yellow, big, high construction one
16:33:07  <planetmaker> it's somewhere in OpenGFX in one of the xcf files
16:33:10  <planetmaker> factory
16:33:14  <planetmaker> iirc
16:33:37  <DanMacK> Is Zimmlock's stuff GPL?
16:33:47  <DanMacK> I PM'd him about some bits from TTRS
16:33:49  <planetmaker> it is creative commons by attribution
16:34:03  <DanMacK> so credit and you can use it
16:34:04  <planetmaker> I made changes and released the stuff as gpl v2
16:34:08  <planetmaker> yes
16:34:12  <DanMacK> awesome
16:34:50  <planetmaker> (well compatible to cc-by, reading the license terms coming with ttrs 3.10)
16:35:02  <planetmaker> or was 3.01 the "original"? whatever
16:36:07  <planetmaker> in any case no issue with FIRS :-)
16:37:22  <planetmaker> and yes, I was very  happy and nicely surprised when I discovered that we could "just" keep maintaining that set. And borrowing stuff from it for others
16:37:34  <planetmaker> giving the attributions to whom attribution is due
16:38:06  * DanMacK needs to get ready for work
16:38:27  <DanMacK> Later all :D
16:38:32  <DanMacK> BBIAB
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16:38:39  <plhalaser> planetmaker, compiling with mingw64
16:38:41  <planetmaker> enjoy...
16:40:19  <planetmaker> link, plhalaser ?
16:42:04  <plhalaser>
16:44:01  <plhalaser> its there, if i use without lzma i get error, but i had same issue with 32bit version on win vista
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16:45:30  * NGC3982 loves the Andy cranes.
16:46:36  <plhalaser> want ask for any help or any chance how install xz with lzma on 64bit version successful
16:46:36  <NGC3982> Star Trek has the Jefferies Tube's, OpenTTD has the Andy Cranes.
16:46:38  <NGC3982> I like that.
16:46:40  <NGC3982> Yeah.
16:47:09  <planetmaker> ehm. You notice that it is a *user* page?
16:49:12  <NGC3982> andythenorth: I notice that i often make fun of you.
16:49:18  <andythenorth> you do?
16:49:47  <NGC3982> andythenorth: Might i also add that it's mostly in jealousy.
16:49:52  <NGC3982> Well, i think i do.
16:49:55  <NGC3982> :P
16:50:08  <planetmaker> I guess then I'm out of clues. But you might want to follow the MinGW guide for mingw32, plhalaser
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16:50:40  * andythenorth is blind to being made fun of
16:50:51  <planetmaker>
16:51:52  <plhalaser> ill try it
16:52:01  <planetmaker> That will work on windows 64bit, too. plhalaser, but that said, you're of course very welcome to add instructions when you find out how to get it run with mingw64
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17:00:07  <plhalaser> if i find any solution, but im in this novice
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17:01:36  <planetmaker> well. First try the tested approach for mingw32 then :-)
17:01:53  <planetmaker> mingw64 is already announced on that user page as both, WIP and not working...
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17:04:49  <plhalaser> planetmaker you are one from developers of ottd, what you ussing for compiling
17:05:10  <BtbN> I'd prefer MSVC over mingw for compiling  on Windows. Mingw, especialy its 64bit version, has some problems
17:08:26  <andythenorth> what's wrong with GCC?
17:08:29  <andythenorth> oh, windows?
17:08:53  <NGC3982> andythenorth: May i PM you?
17:09:00  <andythenorth> no
17:09:04  <andythenorth> discuss in public channel
17:09:16  <NGC3982> Allright
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17:09:53  <NGC3982> Would you have any personal issues with people making "addons" to FIRS?
17:10:27  *** valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
17:10:31  <NGC3982> For instance, Industry NewGRF's that are made only to be used together with FIRS.
17:12:20  <planetmaker> plhalaser, I use gcc. But myself I only compile on osx (x86_64, i386, sometimes ppc) and on linux (amd64 arch)
17:12:29  <planetmaker> using gcc in all cases
17:13:09  <planetmaker> s/compile/work and use/
17:15:18  <andythenorth> FIRS has one cargo free
17:15:28  <andythenorth> and a number of industry slots
17:15:34  <andythenorth> add-ons are part of the spec
17:16:50  <planetmaker> do the free slots, both cargo and industries change throughout FIRS versions, andythenorth ?
17:17:20  <andythenorth> cargo yes
17:17:26  <andythenorth> industries, somewhat
17:17:48  <andythenorth> I would look at FIRS 2 codebase tbh, e.g. current nightly
17:18:05  <andythenorth> maybe it should get a grfid bump too
17:18:15  <andythenorth> production behaviour is changed, worth a bump
17:18:26  <planetmaker> maybe you can define the dummies, andythenorth and give them a clear name in the code - so that they don't get accidentially used an changed
17:18:40  <planetmaker> andythenorth, not really worth the bump. Just change min_compatible_version....
17:19:09  <andythenorth> think I did that, possibly :P
17:19:12  <planetmaker> funny that you call it also FIRS 2 while there was never even anything after 0.7-beta
17:19:17  <planetmaker> I'd still call it 1.0
17:19:44  <planetmaker> after all... it never had been in a state where one - especially you - would say "it's done", right?
17:21:13  <andythenorth> could be 1.0
17:21:24  <andythenorth> I think there will be lots of whining about supplies
17:21:31  <planetmaker> are they gone?
17:21:33  <andythenorth> so calling it FIRS 2 appeals
17:21:49  <andythenorth> no supplies are present
17:21:58  <planetmaker> so why should there be whining?
17:22:02  <andythenorth> [meaning, no, supplies are *stll* present]
17:22:06  <andythenorth> changed mechanic
17:22:17  <planetmaker> FIRS always had supplies, right?
17:22:29  <andythenorth> yes
17:22:34  <planetmaker> I didn't follow each step... how does it work now?
17:22:53  * andythenorth digresses - so some of these IDs could be IND_RESERVED_ID
17:23:02  <andythenorth> supplies are a boost behaviour now
17:23:08  <andythenorth> deliver supplies for n month boost
17:23:12  <andythenorth> not a permanent increase
17:23:12  <planetmaker> haven't they always been?
17:23:16  <planetmaker> ah
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17:23:25  <andythenorth> it's better, but still has issues
17:23:28  <planetmaker> nah. That change is not worth a bump 1->2
17:24:04  <andythenorth> FIRS 1.0 then
17:24:44  <planetmaker> it changes a bit how they increase production. But it doesn't change the principle: supplies increase production
17:24:50  <andythenorth> yup
17:25:10  <planetmaker> for how long does this boost last? 3 months?
17:25:36  <planetmaker> and how does a primary increase production? (sorry my curious asking :-) )
17:25:48  <planetmaker> I should play more :-P
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17:25:58  <andythenorth> about 3 months or so
17:26:01  <andythenorth> it works nicely
17:26:06  <andythenorth> but has one horrible positive feedback loop
17:26:21  <planetmaker> positive feedback?
17:26:26  <planetmaker> in what way?
17:26:33  <andythenorth> if you have say, coal -> steel -> ensp -> mine
17:26:37  <andythenorth> and you get a train jam
17:26:42  <andythenorth> and you don't notice
17:26:56  <andythenorth> then you get *lots* of train jams
17:27:03  <andythenorth> because all traffic collapses rapidly
17:27:07  <planetmaker> that's not your issue
17:27:08  <andythenorth> a bit like real life :P
17:27:11  <planetmaker> it's bad network design ;-)
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17:27:34  <andythenorth> hyper-connected networks :P
17:27:45  <andythenorth> currently, if the EU or US economies collapse, I suffer
17:27:48  <DanMacK> Back for a bit :D
17:27:54  <andythenorth> not because I sell to EU or US, but because I sell to Australia
17:28:02  <andythenorth> and Australia sells iron ore to China
17:28:09  <andythenorth> China depends on EU & US
17:28:17  <planetmaker> lol
17:28:58  <Eddi|zuHause> you're doomed!
17:29:00  <planetmaker> welcome to the connected and globalized world, I guess
17:31:46  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you should try a FIRS game
17:31:51  <andythenorth> supplies are objectively better
17:32:08  <andythenorth> previous mechanic caused large surplus to build up quite quickly
17:32:15  <andythenorth> but it's still not perfected imo
17:32:26  <andythenorth> also there is a new NoCarGoal script...
17:32:30  <planetmaker> no time to play till Christmas :-(
17:32:39  <andythenorth> also...economies are 'done' ;)
17:32:48  <andythenorth> i.e. the framework is done
17:32:52  <DanMacK> Indeed?
17:32:55  <andythenorth> there are 2 economies
17:33:03  <planetmaker> yes, I followed discussion / commits loosely... I'm quite curious about that :-)
17:33:08  <andythenorth> 'Basic' needs works
17:33:11  <andythenorth> -s
17:33:29  <DanMacK> But basic has some good stuff
17:33:45  <andythenorth> I prefer the idea of climate-specific 'basic'
17:33:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i need a new pen...
17:34:00  <andythenorth> I think the loss of climate-specific stuff is a backwards step
17:34:45  <planetmaker> climate-specifics are nice, yes. Though.. what would even be nicer is like ogfx-industries: have a climate-default but allow override via parameter ;-)
17:34:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: let "basic" be a slight modification of the default, with added supplies mechanism?
17:35:10  <planetmaker> ^ sounds actually not bad
17:35:19  <planetmaker> as closely as FIRS allows that
17:36:04  <planetmaker> that "as closely" might be the difficult part. FIRS is structured quite differently
17:37:25  <andythenorth> docs are probably online
17:37:40  <andythenorth> actually not
17:37:43  <andythenorth> but they're in the bundle
17:37:48  <andythenorth>
17:37:56  <oskari89> andythenorth: current FIRS cargo chart, where?
17:38:11  <planetmaker> ingame. industry chain view :-)
17:38:15  <andythenorth>
17:38:30  <andythenorth> $someone should generate the chart from the source code
17:38:38  <andythenorth> rather than relying on the website that may not be in date
17:38:51  <planetmaker> andythenorth, 20 cargos is still a lot. is less feasible for basic?
17:38:56  <andythenorth> needs to be fewer imo
17:39:02  <andythenorth> but there is a limit where chains break
17:39:12  <planetmaker> andythenorth, use one supply in basic (instead of 3)?
17:39:13  <andythenorth> btw, I can have FIRS compiler output json or something
17:39:36  <DanMacK> Possibly look at the default chain and work backwards?
17:40:33  <andythenorth> I really want to avoid modifying production code
17:40:54  <andythenorth> economies modifies industry / cargo availability, and certain static properties (cargo payment, industry probability etc)
17:41:26  <oskari89> I think that FIRS economy is quite good.
17:41:39  <DanMacK> Supplies doesn't add that much more complexity as they are optional...
17:41:42  <oskari89> It gives realistic things to transport :)
17:41:56  <andythenorth> I am happy to include any sane, coherent economy
17:42:09  * planetmaker wonders why wood, steel and ore and coal are not "realistic" ;-)
17:42:12  <DanMacK> Indeed
17:42:12  <andythenorth> so if anyone wants a 'planetmaker economy' or an 'Eddi|zuHause economy' etc that's fine
17:42:19  <planetmaker> haha :-)
17:42:31  <andythenorth> we can have 2 economies or 20
17:42:41  <andythenorth> 20 is probably 10 too many, but meh
17:42:53  <DanMacK> It also makes it much more customizable
17:43:49  <planetmaker> andythenorth, what about defining "chains" which can be selected via parameter?
17:44:06  <planetmaker> but I guess that goes perpendicular to economies...
17:44:12  <DanMacK> So is it possible to swap out cargos for an economy?  So you can work from a larger pool?
17:44:43  <DanMacK> That's similar to ecs...
17:44:52  <DanMacK> But parameter instead of newgrf
17:45:08  <planetmaker> yes, true
17:46:28  <Ammler> andythenorth: don't forget the "Ammler economy", we talked about years ago :-P
17:46:53  <DanMacK> Isn't that stuff and things?
17:47:04  <andythenorth> Ammler: +1
17:47:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm thinking two parameters: 1) economy: {basic, agriculture, car-suppliers, ...} and 2) climate-variation: {autodetect, temperate, arctic, desert}
17:47:35  <andythenorth> orthogonal?  or ?
17:47:40  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
17:48:46  <Eddi|zuHause> where the climate may define stuff like food/water effects or completely different import/export schemes
17:50:18  <Ammler> maybe better name like "original cargos"
17:50:22  <Eddi|zuHause> like the desert version of agriculture economy could focus on exporting biofuel or something
17:51:07  <DanMacK> Off to work... bbl
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17:57:19  <andythenorth> currently economy is quite simple
17:57:22  <andythenorth>
17:57:41  <andythenorth> industry enabled / disaled; over-rides on certain props
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17:59:29  <andythenorth> trying to avoid combinatorial explosion
17:59:42  <andythenorth> and / or unintended consequences of bad combinations
18:00:15  <Ammler> oh
18:00:33  <Ammler> so your economy is industry based only? :'-(
18:03:32  <andythenorth> cargos as well
18:03:50  <andythenorth>
18:04:20  <Ammler> but how does a industry work, where a cargo is diabled?
18:04:31  <andythenorth> ottd is pretty clever about that
18:04:46  <andythenorth> FIRS secondary production code is less clever :P
18:05:16  <Eddi|zuHause> by "export" i mean a "port" industry that must be near large bodies of water or near the map border
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18:16:44  <andythenorth> yup
18:16:53  <andythenorth> dan + me have that idea in mind
18:17:07  <andythenorth> your proposal is 1:1 same as Dan's I think
18:17:34  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: "you too could become a FIRS developer" :P
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18:24:31  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so what else does climate define?
18:25:00  <andythenorth> dan was thinking for exampe, tropic has bauxite -> metal chain, instead of iron ore + coal -> metal chain
18:25:05  <andythenorth> example *
18:25:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on the economy
18:25:41  <Supercheese> Why shouldn't temperate have bauxite chain?
18:26:11  <andythenorth> why should it?
18:27:02  <Supercheese> I'd wager "Transport ALL the cargo!" is a popular sentiment
18:27:19  <Supercheese> also, I like the bauxite chain :P
18:27:24  <andythenorth> yeah ok
18:27:34  <andythenorth> but I don't get it in that case
18:27:40  <andythenorth> why bother with economies at all?
18:27:50  * Supercheese shrugs
18:28:17  <Supercheese> Oh, also we had a bauxite plant up here on the Washington State side of the border, until it closed down a few years ago
18:28:36  <andythenorth> I don't understand how to provide 'all the cargos' and 'there are too many cargos' in one grf
18:28:40  <Supercheese> of course, they received their shipments from overseas, IIRC
18:28:43  <andythenorth> I find that kind of thing depressing tbh
18:29:16  <Supercheese> Have a parameter that switches from "ALL the cargos" and "Only some cargos"?
18:29:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you think of temperate as first world and desert as 3rd world, then bauxite might be an imported cargo in temperate, but the desert economy lacks secondary industries
18:29:33  <andythenorth> "yes, we'd like it entirely in black, but also entirely in white, thanks, mm ok"
18:31:12  <andythenorth> so now the propoal is economies AND climates AND control over cargoes?
18:31:34  <andythenorth> when do I get to say "compile your own grf?" :P
18:31:35  <Eddi|zuHause> like, extending on the default saw mill, the desert economy starts out with agriculture and ports, but new secondary industries must be funded
18:31:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the available cargos get defined by the available industries
18:32:15  <Eddi|zuHause> everything else doesn't make sense
18:32:26  <Supercheese> I'd be ok with "compile your own grf", but yeah I don't think most would be :P
18:32:45  <Supercheese> well, as long as we're compiling in NML that is
18:32:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: doesn't make sense to me either ;)
18:33:07  <andythenorth> mind, I have run out of codeine here :P
18:34:12  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: cargos could vary slightly independently from industries
18:34:24  <andythenorth> some industries depend on certain cargos, others don't depend
18:34:41  <andythenorth> or at least, function if cargos are missing
18:35:03  <andythenorth> notably primaries
18:35:06  <andythenorth> and also black holes
18:35:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so an industry has two sets of cargos: "strong" and "weak" ones. a cargo is included if at least one industry has it as "strong" one
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18:35:48  <Alberth> moin
18:35:51  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: this sounds plausible
18:36:32  <Eddi|zuHause> so e.g. a bauxite mine has bauxite as strong cargo and engineering supplies as weak cargo
18:36:33  <andythenorth> it would remove the need to define cargos
18:36:42  <andythenorth> could be auto-calculated
18:37:04  <andythenorth> hmm
18:37:34  <Eddi|zuHause> or the strong/weak thing is only for output cargos?
18:38:44  <andythenorth> input is much harder
18:38:56  <andythenorth> ensp is a dependency for implementation reasons
18:39:17  <andythenorth> removing it means a lot of conditional production code and string code
18:39:37  <andythenorth> simple code
18:39:49  <andythenorth> but who would write it? o_O
18:42:19  *** Belugas [~belugas@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:42:28  <andythenorth> "if not accepted, disable cargo?"
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18:45:15  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24666 trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt (2012-11-06 18:45:08 UTC)
18:45:16  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:17  <DorpsGek> latvian - 4 changes by Parastais
18:45:43  *** TrueBrain_ is now known as TrueBrain
18:45:54  <TrueBrain> the world rejoices, I returned!
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18:49:08  <andythenorth> lo TrueBrain
18:49:21  <TrueBrain> a week without internet ... THE HORROR
18:49:26  <andythenorth> can we have new bananas yet?
18:49:47  <TrueBrain> what part of: no internet, dont you understand? :P
18:50:05  <andythenorth> offline coding, right?
18:50:08  <andythenorth> a quiet sprint
18:50:12  <andythenorth> away from distractions...
18:50:19  <TrueBrain> no documentation ....
18:50:34  <TrueBrain> you only notice how often you use the internet if you dont have it :P
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18:52:00  <andythenorth> :P
18:52:16  <andythenorth> I now have rage with no internet
18:52:28  <andythenorth> I used to sometimes go away to places with no internet and it was ok
18:52:34  <andythenorth> but now I am addicted I think
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19:09:42  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so 'climate' might modify town effect, an import/export industry type, what else?
19:09:55  <andythenorth> it currently modifies 'sugar beet' / 'sugarcane' string
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19:17:13  <LordAro> evenings
19:17:30  <Alberth> evenink
19:18:02  <LordAro> hai Alberth
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19:29:26  * LordAro is seriously considering moving to Arch linux
19:30:05  <LordAro> but how stable is it? debian unstable stability? debian testing stability?
19:32:25  <plhalaser> sorry im completely twat from msvc, where is button or sommething for compiling?
19:32:56  <__ln__> F7
19:37:59  <plhalaser> it do nothing
19:38:15  <Zuu> Did you open the solution?
19:38:26  <Zuu> .sln
19:38:33  <Eddi|zuHause> plhalaser: in the menu it's called something like "build solution"
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19:41:06  <Alberth> LordAro: if it crashes too often, it is non-stable :p
19:42:23  <Alberth> the more bleeding edge you use, the more risk on problems with stability, you cannot have both bleeding edge and stability at the same time
19:42:40  <andythenorth> my computer crashed recently
19:42:42  <andythenorth> silly thing
19:43:58  <kero> Using Windows ? :o)
19:44:05  <plhalaser> :( i download ottd source open it in msvc. then build solution. that do nothing just write 1 succeeded. i cant find any .exe
19:44:29  <plhalaser> win7 64. vdmc32
19:44:33  <Zuu> Unless your computer is insanely fast, you need more than one second.
19:44:53  <Zuu> My k7 3,6 GHz take 40 seconds to build OpenTTD. :-)
19:45:18  <Yexo> plhalaser: 1 succeeded and how many failed?
19:45:24  <plhalaser> 0
19:45:40  <Yexo> are you sure you did "build solution" and not "build project"?
19:45:43  <Alberth> Zuu: so you need about 40 such computers :p
19:46:14  <plhalaser> yes solution. :(
19:46:48  <Zuu> Alberth: probably even more
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19:47:23  <Alberth> 42?  at 1u high, you have a nice rack full of them :p
19:47:56  <Zuu> Oh, and that is the debug build that takes 40 seconds. If I want a release build it takes about twice that as linking then takes "lots of time".
19:48:25  <Alberth> just never do that :)
19:49:22  <Zuu> Running AIs or GSs in fast forward is kind of slow in debug mode. :-)
19:49:38  <andythenorth> does windows crash?  I have not seen a windows crash for years.
19:49:56  <Yexo> I see one about once a week
19:50:02  <plhalaser> mg why. i had only once working station for compiling gcc i thing on xp. few years ago. on vista and 7 i cant successfully install lzma on mingw
19:50:24  <Alberth> andythenorth: neither have I, but perhaps because I have no windows machines nearby?
19:51:38  <Zuu> plhalaser: Which msvc version do you use?
19:51:50  <Zuu> Which number was it in the solution that you opened?
19:52:17  <kero> andythenorth : it's to late. The reputation of being a crasful OS is definetely there now
19:52:23  <plhalaser> 11.0
19:52:31  <Zuu> Eg. did you open the 100 .sln for msvc 2010 (or 90 for 2008)
19:52:51  <plhalaser> from 2012
19:53:08  <Zuu> 2012 probably should have a solution file including number 110 in the name
19:53:14  <plhalaser> instaled one hour ago
19:53:47  <Yexo> we don't have a project that yet, but the msvc 2010 file should work
19:53:55  <TrueBrain> grrr, stupid Raspberry PI ... ordered  new SDs, fails horribly :(
19:54:51  <andythenorth> hmm
19:55:19  <andythenorth> FIRS mixed farm produces livestock & plant fibres.  Arable farm produces sugar (beet / cane) & grain
19:55:34  <andythenorth> should mixed farm produce livestock & grain; arable farm plant fibres and sugar?
19:55:42  <plhalaser> have someone experience with mingw64? any way how to install xz or lzma corectly? os w7 64
19:56:25  <Zuu> Do you need to run mingw64 on w7 64, can't you run mngw32?
19:56:57  <Zuu> Of course you'll get a 32bit OpenTTD binary with maximum memory usage of 2 GB, but I don't see that as a problem.
19:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: does that really matter?
19:57:23  <andythenorth> it does when trying to make a minimal economy (perhaps)
19:57:55  <plhalaser> 5 min ill be back
19:58:03  <Eddi|zuHause> "minimal economy" means each farm only produces one output
19:58:29  <Eddi|zuHause> means e.g. one grain-producing and one livestock-producing
19:58:51  <Eddi|zuHause> skip fibres and sugar
19:59:07  <andythenorth> I have been trying to reduce it to fewest number of industries possible
19:59:30  <andythenorth> but that leaves only grain as a farm cargo
19:59:44  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds fine
20:00:35  <DanMacK> Id say switch the cargos for familiarity
20:00:49  <Eddi|zuHause> keep in mind that you will want to keep this "minimal food chain" for things like the automobile industry economy
20:00:51  <DanMacK> So stock and grain
20:00:54  <DanMacK> Bbiab
20:02:10  <Eddi|zuHause> and maybe in desert economy remove grain and keep sugar as food-producing cargo?
20:03:15  <andythenorth> hm
20:03:23  <andythenorth> DanMacK: before you go - we need a sugar cane mill for tropic ;)
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20:12:20  <plhalaser> back. on 32bit i have problem with most of libs because missing ddls. only on 64bit i was able install all needed for ottd. but xz was probably instaled without or corupted lzma
20:12:54  <plhalaser> and sorry for bad english, my best teacher was fallout tactics
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20:20:21  <andythenorth> hmm
20:20:32  <andythenorth> so industry-changing-graphics-by-time
20:20:43  <andythenorth> needs at minimum random offset per industry instance
20:20:51  <andythenorth> how to do that?
20:21:44  *** Belugas [~belugas@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:22:18  <andythenorth> current code is
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20:40:39  <Yexo> andythenorth: replace "current_year" by "(current_year + random_bits % 5)" to get 0 to 4 years delay
20:40:46  <Yexo> %10 to get 0 to 10 years, etc.
20:40:47  <andythenorth> win
20:40:58  <andythenorth> modulus is a funny thing
20:41:04  <andythenorth> I've read the wikipedia article on it
20:41:07  <andythenorth> none the wiser though :)
20:41:43  <andythenorth> are random bits consistent?  Not changed by animation triggers or such?
20:41:55  <Yexo> I don't think industry random bits can be changed
20:42:36  <andythenorth> great
20:43:12  <Rubidium> pff...
20:43:20  <Rubidium> modulo and random
20:43:51  <Rubidium> if it's not a power of two, then you're biasing it towards current_year instead of current_year + modulo ;)
20:44:33  <andythenorth> ha
20:44:42  <andythenorth> Yexo: that's using per-tile bits :)
20:44:47  <andythenorth> which has an interesting effect
20:45:05  <andythenorth> I'd keep it, it adds more variety...but graphics may span tiles :P
20:45:07  <Yexo> oh, right, you're doing this in tile scope
20:45:35  <Yexo> you'll probably need to insert a switch in between to store the industry random bits in a temp var
20:45:41  <andythenorth> it's quite nice that one building changes at a time
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20:46:58  <Yexo> apparently there is no way to get the random bits of another tile
20:47:10  <andythenorth> nml docs don't list random_bits for tiles at all afaict
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20:47:28  <andythenorth> why does it work?
20:47:52  <Yexo> that the documention doesn't list a variable doesn't mean it's not implemented :p
20:47:59  <andythenorth> k
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20:48:55  <andythenorth> so a switch and permanent storage?
20:49:01  <andythenorth> switch and temp storage
20:49:03  <Yexo> temp storage is easier
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20:50:24  <Yexo>
20:51:09  <andythenorth> ta
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20:52:54  <Yexo> if you want to get rid of the rounding error Rubidium mentioned use "var * LOAD_TEMP(0) / 0x1000" instead of "var % LOAD_TEMP(0)"
20:53:27  <andythenorth> k
20:54:02  * Rubidium reckons the return of Random is so unrandom that it overwhelms the effects of the modulo bias ;)
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20:56:09  <andythenorth> let's see if it works :)
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20:59:55  <andythenorth> ok
20:59:57  <andythenorth> so "5 * LOAD_TEMP(0) / 0x1000"
21:00:08  <andythenorth> gives me a -9 year offset in one case
21:00:09  <Yexo> one more zero
21:00:18  <Yexo>  / 0x10000
21:00:33  <andythenorth> glad I made that a var :)
21:03:18  <andythenorth> k that all works
21:03:19  <andythenorth> thanks
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21:19:31  <krinn> hi, found a strange bug, one of my station doesn't appears in stationlist, even the station exist :)
21:21:04  <krinn> even my savegame is kinda strange (i save it after the ai crash), shouldn't all stations recorded by openttd anyway ?
21:21:45  <krinn> ah never mind found it
21:22:10  <krinn> it was filtering, openttd also save filtering station state ?
21:26:36  <Yexo> dunno, you can filter stations?
21:26:57  <krinn> by cargo type yes
21:27:18  <krinn> one of cargo was set as don't show, hence why the station wasn't show even i click on show all stations
21:28:18  <andythenorth> bed time
21:28:20  <andythenorth> bye
21:28:23  <krinn> bye andythenorth
21:28:55  <krinn> didn't notice it until now, i must play with that cargo filtering from years :)
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21:37:41  <frosch123> i doubt any filter state is saved in a savegame or in the config
21:37:59  <frosch123> it will likely reset if you restart ottd, or even if you reload the gam
21:38:04  <krinn> waiting my tests to end to reload that savegame to see
21:38:38  <krinn> i doubt it a bit too, so i must play like that for a huge time without notice that cargo was uncheck
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21:41:14  <Industrial> If i transport passengers by train, do I put the train on full load at both ends?
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21:43:19  <krinn> that the same question for any transport type Industrial
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21:44:31  <krinn> i'm afraid the answer is "it depend on station", full load on weak station make you train stay longer and higher the rating for that station, while then the other rating drop and of course passengers drop too
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21:47:29  <frosch123> when transporting passengers i usually don't use any full load
21:47:51  <frosch123> however, stations with very few passengers should have a timetabled loading time
21:48:01  <frosch123> so that trains wait at least some days
21:48:18  <frosch123> that prevents them from clumping up
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21:48:56  <frosch123> something between 2 to 10 days, depending on how many vehicles you have on that line
21:49:08  <krinn> the non-full load on two poor station should gave good results, except if train and line is long: you may end with poor rating on both stations and train keep going with nothing from both
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21:49:40  <frosch123> i think full load at both ends will end up with all trains waiting at the station with less cargo
21:50:06  <frosch123> so, i would actually say, "full load at both ends" is never a good option
21:50:25  <krinn> frosch123, might assure you will at least get a few bucks from it, and a good rating while it try loading, depend what you wish get
21:51:21  <krinn> i sometimes fullload a poor station to help town grow (or my rating within the town), even i loose money, kinda trading money for reputation :)
21:52:23  <frosch123> yeah, if you want to full load, then at the station with few cargo
21:53:24  <frosch123> but timetabling is likely still better when loading at multiple stations
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21:53:56  <krinn> i don't do timetabling, but that looks the best for that yes
21:54:29  <krinn> Industrial, isn't that the best answer for a question we could really answer ?
21:55:34  <frosch123> Industrial: and if you go for the timetabling, only timetable the loading times, not the travel times
21:55:53  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i missed the randomness discussion again
21:56:21  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: 4
21:56:23  <krinn> like the cavlary Eddi|zuHause always too late
21:56:37  <krinn> cavalry maybe ?
21:56:45  <krinn> wait checking that word ^^
21:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause> cavalry, yes
21:57:11  <frosch123> chivalry?
21:57:15  <krinn> ah yes, nearly as in french
21:57:19  <krinn> cavalry
21:57:35  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well, both words have the same root :)
21:57:52  <krinn> we said "cavalry comes always too late" (lol must be for french historical reason)
21:58:01  <Eddi|zuHause> french "cheval" meaning horse
21:58:24  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, always killing me by your knowledge dude
21:58:27  <Industrial> frosch123: I don't know what the timetable option is
21:58:51  <frosch123> Industrial:
21:58:55  <plhalaser> guys can someone compile for me ottd1.2.3 with daylenght, larger maps and singnal on brifge and tunels? 64bit is better
21:59:27  <Industrial> ah, thanks
22:00:08  <frosch123> interestingly the wiki does not seem to descibe the use-case of timetabling only loading times :/
22:01:18  <Eddi|zuHause> the use-case of timetabling being interleaving vehicles so they don't run into each other is a micromanage nightmare
22:01:54  <Rubidium> plhalaser: why do you need specifically 1.2.3?
22:01:57  <planetmaker> plhalaser, use chill's patchpack
22:02:07  <planetmaker> it's old but has those features
22:02:07  <Rubidium> why doesn't any recent patchpack suffice?
22:02:31  <krinn> could have at least tell or what os no ?
22:02:32  *** DanMacK [~AndChat61@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:02:56  <planetmaker> hehe, krinn. I used to say "sure". And provided powerPC binaries for OSX 10.3 ... 10.5 ;-)
22:03:07  <krinn> lol planetmaker
22:03:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it's pretty obvious he meant windows by his previous discussions in here...
22:03:23  <krinn> i was waiting for the next order : what you wish with your pizza ?
22:03:27  <Eddi|zuHause> ^Spike^:
22:03:31  <Eddi|zuHause> err
22:03:36  <Rubidium> he said 64 bit...
22:03:37  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever that was
22:03:40  <krinn> but even windows have versions no ?
22:03:43  <planetmaker> ppc64 :-P
22:03:46  * Rubidium ponders starting up Hercules again ;)
22:03:46  <planetmaker> so 10.5 only
22:03:49  <krinn> here's your build for win2003 64
22:03:51  <krinn> :)
22:04:07  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: IA64? :)
22:04:19  <krinn> lmao that's 64bits for sure
22:04:21  <planetmaker> but yes, he asked about mingw64 compilation earlier here
22:04:21  <plhalaser> chill doesnt have daylengt
22:04:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yes chill has daylength
22:04:56  <plhalaser> 64 would be better but if will be 32 its ok
22:05:06  <planetmaker> plhalaser, why is 64bit better?
22:05:25  <planetmaker> due to its slower function calls and increased memory usage and reduced running speed?
22:05:26  <Rubidium> planetmaker: large maps need more memory
22:05:27  <krinn> planetmaker, because it takes twice time the ram as the 32bits version
22:05:42  <planetmaker> twice?
22:05:53  <krinn> not that many, but a lot more
22:06:00  <Eddi|zuHause> asymptotically :)
22:06:05  <plhalaser> no chill dont have it because it was unstable with others patches or sommething
22:06:19  <Eddi|zuHause> plhalaser: that's nonsense
22:06:33  <krinn> see x32 abi
22:06:51  <Rubidium> the binary someone would cook up in a few minutes for you is undoubtedly buggier than chill's patchpack
22:07:06  <Rubidium> though I doubt anyone here is going to make said binary for you
22:07:36  <planetmaker> It would take me probably more time than is left in this day. Only to setup the proper compilation environment
22:08:23  <krinn> and mingw can only produce windows binary?
22:08:41  <planetmaker> that's the point of mingw, I guess
22:08:58  <krinn> i would said is point is to run under windows
22:09:04  <planetmaker> I probably could even setup that here as cross-compiler... maybe that's easier and faster than on windows
22:09:20  <planetmaker> krinn, there are debian-mingw packages ;-)
22:09:30  <planetmaker> so point is to produce binaries for windows
22:09:31  <krinn> :)
22:09:54  <frosch123> hmm, on gentoo i could cross-compile ttdp for windows
22:10:11  <planetmaker>
22:10:34  <plhalaser> planetmaker, i tryied mingw32 but i was unable install any components because missind dlls
22:10:52  <planetmaker> plhalaser, then get those DLLs?
22:11:05  <frosch123> plhalaser: haha, i like the mixture of translated and untranslated package description :p
22:11:14  <planetmaker> :D
22:11:20  <frosch123> planetmaker: actually
22:11:34  <krinn> planetmaker, pff no toolchain for IA64 :)
22:12:09  <Rubidium> krinn: that just needs dpkg --add-architecture ia64 ;)
22:12:12  <planetmaker> krinn, I searched for mingw. Not for IA64. Debian has a native one there
22:12:44  <planetmaker> complete system with kernel and all apps :P
22:14:15  <planetmaker>
22:14:41  <krinn> only get ppc and x86-64 x86 on gentoo for openttd
22:15:00  <plhalaser> thats little problem for me, dlls i was unable to find, only source, and programing its finish 13 years ago on turbo pascal
22:15:31  <krinn> you have site to find dll
22:16:33  <plhalaser> whitch
22:16:55  <krinn> you really need a teach about google ?
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22:22:11  <Zuu> Or just stick to visual studio 2008/2010 which clearly have been proven to work to build OpenTTD.
22:22:35  *** Elukka [] has quit []
22:22:54  <Zuu> I don't see why 2012 wouldn't work, but its new and there is probably no wiki article for it yet that describe new problems introduced by it. :-p
22:23:44  <Supercheese> I followed the wiki instructions for compiling OTTD in Visual C++ 2008 express, and I went from absolutely nothing to fully able to compile in about ten minutes
22:23:52  <Supercheese> it was amazingly easy
22:23:59  <Zuu> Using the express version, AFAIK you'll only get 32 bit builds, but that is fine for most cases.
22:25:25  <Supercheese> These instructions:
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22:25:34  <Supercheese> worked flawlessly
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22:29:14  <plhalaser> visual c++ i tryied today too 2012 version because i trying install lzma on mingw64 3 days and when i use build solution i had only 1 success in cca 1 second, vc do nothing
22:33:31  <Zuu> did you follow the wiki guide for compiling OpenTTD with visual studio 2010? (possible the guide that is closest to msvc2012)
22:34:48  <Zuu> Also, I assume you try to build a clean trunk/stable without any patches applied?
22:36:18  <plhalaser> yes step by step from wiki, on mingw and vc too
22:36:46  <plhalaser> and i tryied clear 1.2.3
22:37:40  <Zuu> When you hit F7, is the openttd project shown in bold (and the other 6 in non-bold)?
22:38:41  <Zuu> The project list is sually found too the left of the code window.
22:39:20  <plhalaser> when i hit f7 only what vc do was on bottom show 1 success
22:39:30  <Zuu> "Solution explorer" is probably the correct name of that window.
22:39:42  <Zuu> Ideally it should show 7 success.
22:39:53  <plhalaser> i had 1
22:40:14  <Zuu> Example build here:
22:40:15  <Zuu> ========== Build: 3 succeeded, 0 failed, 3 up-to-date, 1 skipped ==========
22:40:43  <Zuu> succeded + up-to-date + skipped usually sum up to 7
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22:41:23  <plhalaser> first time when i hit f7 was 1 success 0 others, next time was only 1 up to date 0 others
22:41:42  <Zuu> Is "OpenTTD" shown in bold in your solution explorer window?
22:41:53  <plhalaser> yes
22:42:17  <Zuu> If you hit F5, what happens?
22:42:56  <Zuu> Does the solution explorer also include "generate", "lags", "settings", "settingsgen", "strgen" and "version" sub projects?
22:44:51  <plhalaser> blank white window
22:45:06  <plhalaser> and no
22:45:13  <Zuu> That is your problem
22:45:27  <planetmaker> did you install openttd useful?
22:45:30  <Zuu> Are you sure that you opened the .sln file?
22:46:02  <Zuu> openttd_vs100.sln
22:46:18  <Zuu> and not a .vcproj file
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22:47:04  <plhalaser> i opened sln file
22:47:54  <Zuu> If msvc2012 can't open openttd_vs100.sln and get all 7 sub projects shown in the solution explorer, then that is likely a fatal problem.
22:48:18  <Zuu> Eg. something that need manual work to get working.
22:48:33  <glx> IIRC express 2012 can only do metro style apps
22:48:38  <Zuu> Easiest for you is probably to go down to vs2010 or vs2008.
22:48:44  <__ln__> glx: your information is outdated
22:48:57  <glx> they changed their mind ?
22:49:10  <__ln__> that's what i've heard
22:49:18  <Zuu> Anyway, from what I've heard the icon set for vs2012 sucks.
22:51:39  <plhalaser> today its finishing for me, tommorov ill try to install mingw32 again and try download missing libraries or ill try to do sommething with lzma for 64bit
22:52:33  <glx> ha right there are express for win8 and express for win desktop
22:54:11  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:54:57  <__ln__> besides, it's UI-formerly-known-as-Metro, not Metro
22:55:09  <glx> yes windows store apps
22:55:44  <glx> plhalaser: just get lzma source and compile it
22:55:57  <glx> that's how it works with mingw
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23:11:18  <krinn> dbg: [script] [3] [I] Do 12500 units of WOOD(7)
23:11:18  <krinn> dbg: [script] [3] [I] Do 12500 units of FOOD(11)
23:11:18  <krinn> dbg: [script] [3] [I] Do 12500 units of DIAM(15)
23:11:18  <krinn> dbg: [script] [3] [I] We will now promote DIAM
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23:48:02  <drac_boy> hi
23:48:09  <Supercheese> salve
23:48:48  <drac_boy> how're you supercheese?
23:49:01  <Supercheese> playing a game (not OTTD)
23:49:05  <drac_boy> and btw I slept ok ... still got this stupid illness but oh well .. we'll see tomorrow :/
23:49:30  <drac_boy> supercheese but either way heres' another thought on trains for you .. do you want to know why certain tenders were called Vanderbilt ones? :)
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23:53:03  <Supercheese> Vanderbilt tenders, eh?
23:56:00  <drac_boy> the name came from the way that a normal boxy water tank has a lot of internal frames to keep its shape (especially avoid the long flat surfaces from bowing out) ... but a vanderbilt tender was more of a cylinder which was so much easier to built and lighter due to very little framing weigth needed
23:56:45  <Supercheese> interesting
23:56:46  <drac_boy> and the coal bunker was just a small sloped box built on the front end of the tank .. abit a few vandrbilt tenders that were for oil/water instead simply looked more like a real tank car except for a full baffle inside to seperate the two liquids
23:57:25  <drac_boy> heres an old coal/water one
23:57:40  <drac_boy> the one cap on top was ofc for water refills as usual :)
23:59:57  <drac_boy> supercheese of course there was one unique (afaik) tender on PRR ....

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