Log for #openttd on 19th November 2012:
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00:26:58  <DDR> Especially a name that's untaken on the internet.
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06:19:19  <Nat_aS> >Find Brazil scenerio in Bananas
06:19:22  <Nat_aS> oh this looks cool
06:19:26  <Nat_aS> >It's temprate
06:19:27  <Nat_aS> :.
06:19:29  <Nat_aS> :/
06:19:32  <Nat_aS> also absurd sized
06:19:37  <Nat_aS> WHY DO PEOPLE DO THIS?
06:19:53  <Nat_aS> also, the amazon river is made of jaggies apparently
06:21:06  <Nat_aS> the map is huge, but has no detail, and the amazon river makes right angle turns
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06:22:26  <Nat_aS> oh, here's another inapropriately climated map, It's suposed to be the north sea, but it's also temprate
06:23:35  <Nat_aS> >Temprate caribian
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07:23:34  <Flygon> Nat_aS: Can't be any worse than the Sub-Arctic world map... that had no details, apart from USA apperantly being a city
07:24:00  <Flygon> What really annoys me, though, is that you can't have all climates in one ma
07:24:02  <Flygon> map*
07:24:15  <Flygon> This really hurts America, Australia, and Europe scenarios :(
07:24:35  <Flygon> Australia has snow and beaches within 200km of eachother, dangit!
07:24:53  <Nat_aS> yeah
07:25:06  <Nat_aS> although there are newgrifs that do funky things with that I think
07:25:31  <Nat_aS> at least there are newgrfs that fit snow into temprate maps
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07:25:53  <Nat_aS> I just hate that there are few tropic maps, and when I see a map for somewhere like brazil
07:25:56  <Nat_aS> I get my hopes up
07:26:03  <Nat_aS> only to find it's LOL TEMPRATE
07:26:09  <Nat_aS> also fucking huge maps
07:26:16  <Nat_aS> Just because you can, dosn't mean you should
07:33:32  <Flygon> Hmmm
07:33:35  <Flygon> Y'know, Nat
07:33:41  <Flygon> You can export the heightmap
07:33:43  <Flygon> Reimport
07:33:53  <Flygon> And manually adjust the map from there
07:34:03  <Flygon> Placing towns and industries would suck, though
07:34:13  <Flygon> Shame there's no method of reporting, at the very least, towns
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07:34:50  <Flygon> This has me particulary annoyed, for example, with regard to a scenario I've provided a heightmap for
07:34:59  <Flygon> And have since, improved my heightmap techniques
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07:37:22  <NGC3982> Morning, deamons and democrats.
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07:41:57  <Nat_aS> i suck at heightmapping
07:42:31  <Nat_aS> and yeah, I like industries placed with care, but I'm too lazy to do it myself
07:42:59  <Nat_aS> I'm just fustrated that all the energy people have in making maps, is wasted on making giant ugly temprate maps with random industries
08:01:00  <Flygon> Nat_aS: All I did was use the DEM method
08:01:08  <Flygon> But the trick is getting the output to look good
08:01:11  <Flygon> As it turns out
08:01:18  <Flygon> Blur is your friend
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08:21:13  <NGC3982> I have never played a heightmap.
08:21:19  <NGC3982> I actually don't even know the difference.
08:21:27  <Flygon> Heightmaps lack anything but the land
08:21:56  <NGC3982> Oh, 'Heightmap' only defines how the map was made?
08:23:14  <Flygon> Literally the height of the map
08:23:17  <Flygon> As in, altitude
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10:36:19  <andythenorth> do we want diagonal canals?
10:36:23  <andythenorth> I'll draw them if needed
10:36:25  <andythenorth> also rivers
10:36:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yes and yes. problem is, you can't build rails on the other half :/
10:37:15  <andythenorth> shrug
10:37:26  <andythenorth> same applies to railtypes
10:37:30  <andythenorth> new map :P
10:37:33  <andythenorth> map layers :P
10:37:53  <NGC3982> andythenorth: Yes.
10:38:00  <andythenorth> juanjo's 'multiple docks' patch looks interesting
10:38:02  <andythenorth> hmm
10:38:11  <NGC3982> Diagonal stuff taste good.
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10:38:28  <andythenorth> I should have prefixed my question with 'do people who have commit rights think diagonal canals rivers are worth drawing' :P
10:38:31  <andythenorth> :)
10:38:39  <Flygon> Everything needs diagonals
10:38:43  <Flygon> inb4 road railtype
10:38:49  <NGC3982> Just take Flatland
10:39:14  <NGC3982> Flatland needs diagonals.
10:39:30  * NGC3982 is so bored out he could eat an employee.
10:49:30  <TrueBrain> is she hot?
10:55:12  <Flygon> Or Spicy
10:55:20  <Flygon> ...
10:55:27  <Flygon> I completely missed TrueBrain's joke just then
10:55:29  <Flygon> Derp
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11:09:05  <TGYoshi> How does one play well in multiplayer? ._.
11:09:15  <TGYoshi> the game's insanely slow and I barely earn money compared to others
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11:12:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on the settings
11:14:04  <TGYoshi> What kind of?
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11:14:46  <Eddi|zuHause> all of them...
11:14:53  <Eddi|zuHause> mainly newgrfs
11:15:03  <Eddi|zuHause> or goals/gamescripts
11:15:15  <TGYoshi> Just the basic non-modded game
11:16:09  <TGYoshi> I know you should lay a long track from coal to the energy thing, but somehow it's so insanely slow since I can't fast-forward
11:17:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i usually start with passengers nowadays
11:17:54  <Eddi|zuHause> find two large cities that are close, build tram network to shove the passengers to the station, and add some trains between the stations... watch money pour in both ways
11:17:55  <TGYoshi> trains or roads?
11:18:23  <TGYoshi> Wait, trams == trains? :P
11:18:40  <TGYoshi> actually a neat idea since you get cash both ways
11:19:16  <Eddi|zuHause> there are a few sublte differences between trams and trains :)
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11:20:30  <TGYoshi> I don't see a way to build tramss, however, tho
11:21:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, trams are only added by newgrfs, the default vehicles don't have any
11:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause> but you can use busses instead :)
11:22:38  <Eddi|zuHause> or if the server rules allow it, you can also just put several bus stops connected to the station via ctrl+click, but then you have trouble keeping the town rating up
11:23:22  <TGYoshi> Trams allow tracks to be placed on roads?
11:23:59  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, tram rails are built on top of roads, and they don't crash with road vehicles
11:24:20  <TGYoshi> aha
11:26:03  <Flygon> They can't overtake, though
11:26:05  <Flygon> Obviosly
11:27:00  <TGYoshi> passengers seem to work decently
11:27:20  <TGYoshi> Do you just afk a bit at the beginning or so? XD
11:27:56  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what you mean... i watch the trains move, obviously...
11:28:04  <Eddi|zuHause> what else is the point of the game? :p
11:28:24  <TGYoshi> well, if I go single player I just fast forward a bit till I can build on
11:28:51  <V453000> just make stuff cheaper :) more action
11:29:22  <TGYoshi> "Just make stuff cheaper" :D
11:29:42  <V453000> what is wrong with that? :)
11:30:41  <TGYoshi> Too bad it doesn't work like that in multiplayer :(
11:31:04  <Eddi|zuHause> just max out your loan and build the most profitable routes you can find...
11:31:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i never use FF
11:31:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the game is generally rather too fast
11:31:49  <Flygon> Eddi: Darn right
11:31:50  <V453000> it does work like that in multiplayer, just load basecosts mod last and done
11:32:24  <Flygon> Playing through from 1842 to 2016 on a Europe scenario, and still lacking enough time to cover Europe with HSR before I run out of new steel rain trains
11:32:36  <TGYoshi> [12:31.17] <Eddi|zuHause> i never use FF
11:32:37  <TGYoshi> dafuq.
11:32:41  <Flygon> I can't wait for an introduction of the Chinese 400km/h trains :p
11:32:51  <Flygon> I did use FF in that game, though... finance @_@
11:32:58  <V453000> you dont need FF if you have cheap trains
11:32:58  <TGYoshi> [12:31.05] <Eddi|zuHause> just max out your loan
11:33:01  <TGYoshi> what do you mean?
11:33:15  <V453000> borrow all 500k?
11:33:33  <Eddi|zuHause> you do know about the finance window, right??
11:33:51  <TGYoshi> you can borrow money? rofl
11:34:02  <V453000> it depends on the newGRF ... UKRS for example has a bit expensive trains from the start, for example NUTS has extremely cheap trains so you can play as much as possible
11:34:12  <V453000> lol
11:34:23  <TGYoshi> amazes me how insanely less I know about the game :3
11:34:26  <Flygon> I had expensive trains... I kept going broke because I was upgrading placeholder rails to HSR and getting TGV units :p
11:35:50  <TGYoshi> aha
11:35:55  <TGYoshi> so you can start with 600k default
11:35:56  <TGYoshi> XD
11:36:22  <Flygon> Doesn't the starting money depend on the currency?
11:36:31  <Flygon> eg. 1 mil Euro,  mil USD?
11:37:08  <TGYoshi> 600k eur
11:37:41  <Flygon> Er, wait, I'm thinking about how much you can get loaned...
11:37:47  <Eddi|zuHause> internally everything is calculated in £
11:37:51  <Flygon> I thought the default starting Euro was 200k?
11:38:01  <TGYoshi> Yea, default 200k eur
11:38:10  <Flygon> At least, that's how my Europe scenario wen- gotcha
11:38:20  <Markk> You can change how much money you can loan.
11:41:33  <planetmaker> within a small range only, though. like 100k ... 300k GBP or so
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11:43:21  <Eddi|zuHause> up to 500k£
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13:31:54  <DanMacK> Hey all
13:35:14  <Flygon> Heya
13:35:16  <Flygon> I like the name
13:46:53  <DanMacK> Thanks
13:50:32  <TGYoshi> What newgrf is for trams?
13:51:13  <TGYoshi> nevermind, found it in another menu
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14:39:49  <Belugas> hello
14:40:55  <ntoskrnl> hello
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14:47:54  <Eddi|zuHause> o hell...
14:48:38  <MNIM> Helol?
14:54:25  <NGC3982> Good afternoon.
14:55:01  <NGC3982> TrueBrain: -She +they, and yes, since there are only me and women around here, i would say so.
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15:07:15  <Terkhen> hello
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15:11:27  <supermop> hi
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15:17:18  <FLHerne> supermop: Hoyo :-)
15:17:43  <supermop> hows it going?
15:18:14  <FLHerne> Alright
15:18:53  <supermop> so im not working today
15:19:11  <FLHerne> That sounds fun :-)
15:19:18  <supermop> but im off this afternoon to see a new exhibit of japanese post war art from 1950-70
15:19:24  <supermop> at moma
15:19:56  <supermop> im actually a member of the museum so i could have seen it earlier, but I was lazy so now I must fight the crowds
15:20:10  <supermop> hopefully a monday won'tt be too bad
15:20:55  <supermop> so can't partake in a game today
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15:41:21  <Goosecap> hi
15:42:07  <Goosecap> is it illegal to use signd to stop other ppl using your mine, once you have started using it on a multiplayer game?
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15:45:32  <andythenorth> mustache looks plausible for nml templating
15:45:33  <andythenorth>
15:45:39  <andythenorth> chameleon is not for everyone :P
15:45:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Goosecap: that depends on your server's house rules, but usually this behaviour is frowned upon.
15:46:03  <Ammler> Goosecap: it's at least not fun :-)
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15:46:42  <Goosecap> ok but what if someone is shadowing your company and trying to halm it?
15:47:06  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: they charge tax on winnings in california?
15:48:33  <andythenorth> apparently :P
15:49:16  <Eddi|zuHause> nothing interesting in the rest of the text :)
15:49:24  <Goosecap> im playing on the redarmy server and i cant find any rules for it
15:49:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Goosecap: ask an administrator of the server
15:50:20  <Goosecap> ive never seen one
15:50:42  <Goosecap> how do i go about finding one?
15:50:43  <Eddi|zuHause> then leave the server and pick one with an active administrator/moderator team :)
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15:55:12  <peter1138> Heh, OpenTTD on RISC OS on the Raspberry Pi. It's a bit slow...
15:55:35  <Eddi|zuHause> play smaller maps!! :p
15:56:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it can't really be as slow as TT on my old 386 :)
15:56:45  <peter1138> It took about 3 minutes to get to the main menu :p
15:57:15  <Eddi|zuHause> ok... :)
15:57:39  <Eddi|zuHause> get a smaller data/newgrf/... directory :)
15:57:40  <peter1138> Must be something not quite right, this is a 700MHz machine, and loads of RAM.
15:57:52  <peter1138> Nothing in there except opengfx/sfx/msx
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16:28:42  <Nat_aS> scrolling up, I'd rather see diagonal roads than rivers
16:29:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: whole different class of problems
16:31:00  <Nat_aS> hmm?
16:31:22  <frosch123> how about removing diagonal rail? :p
16:31:49  <Nat_aS> Ppppht
16:32:01  <Nat_aS> man, I tried to give locomotion another try
16:32:16  <Nat_aS> because it has realistic curves and shit
16:32:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: diagonal rivers is mostly graphical, as ships already travel diagonally across these tiles
16:32:23  <Nat_aS> and elivated track
16:32:35  <Nat_aS> but god, the pathfinding is retarded
16:32:46  <Nat_aS> and there are no advanced signals in most maps
16:32:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: whereas diagonal roads are creating a whole new class of road crossings
16:33:01  <Eddi|zuHause> which need new movement patterns and stuff
16:33:12  <Nat_aS> like you need to keep every train isolated on it's own track to avoid conflicts
16:33:29  <Nat_aS> I just noticed RVs can pass each other, was this allways the case?
16:33:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: those are "quantum effects" to resolve deadlocks
16:33:58  <Nat_aS> ohh?
16:35:59  <Eddi|zuHause> in original TT occasionally you got bunches of trucks which could not travel forward or backward, usually in front of truck stations. thus openttd introduced "road vehicle queueing" to avoid these situations and "quantum effects" to resolve these situations in case they still happen
16:37:16  <Eddi|zuHause> this has been included for ages
16:37:25  <Nat_aS> not sure how faster veichiles passing behind slower ones resolves deadlocks
16:37:33  <Nat_aS> what if there is another one going the other way?
16:37:52  <Nat_aS> will it magicaly pass through it? or does this only happen when the road is clear?
16:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> the quantum effects should only happen if the vehicle is standing still for some times
16:38:56  <Eddi|zuHause> simple overtaking should not cause this effect
16:39:09  <Nat_aS> well overtaking is what I was asking about
16:39:13  <Nat_aS> did this allways happen?
16:39:14  <Eddi|zuHause> if a vehicle hits an opposite vehicle, it stops and joins back behind the one it was overtaking
16:39:30  <Eddi|zuHause> overtaking is not "pass through", it's "pass by" :)
16:39:36  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that was always there
16:39:38  <Eddi|zuHause> even in TT
16:39:38  <Nat_aS> i said pass by
16:39:40  <Nat_aS> I think
16:39:43  <Nat_aS> :?
16:39:57  <ntoskrnl> i've seen vehicles just pass through another one going the other way
16:39:59  <Nat_aS> i said passing behind
16:40:03  <Eddi|zuHause> you said neither
16:40:08  <Eddi|zuHause> just "pass"
16:40:14  <Eddi|zuHause> so it was ambiguous
16:40:19  <Nat_aS> ntoskrnl: that's because the sprites are too large
16:40:36  <Nat_aS> they aren't really passing through each other, it's just the sprites
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16:40:50  <Nat_aS> in game terms, they are on opisate sides of the road
16:41:38  <ntoskrnl> no, i mean, they pass through each other during an overtake
16:42:20  <frosch123> wow... i did not know what the weird term "quantum effect" in ottd referred to
16:42:26  <Nat_aS> but don't you see one at least try to go on the other side of the road?
16:42:46  <Nat_aS> it's probably because the sprite takes up the whole road, instead of just half
16:42:58  <Nat_aS> the game dosn't handle large trucks diffrently
16:43:06  <frosch123> hmm, or did we even remove it because noone understood what it meant?
16:43:19  <ntoskrnl> Nat_aS: yes, sometimes they go back to the other side as you said, and sometimes they just "magically" pass through each other
16:43:39  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: there were definitely some discussions, but i have no idea what the text reads now
16:44:03  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway: :)
16:44:13  <frosch123> yeah, it's still in the settings name
16:44:28  <frosch123> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ROAD_VEHICLE_QUEUEING                        :Road vehicle queueing (with quantum effects): {STRING2}
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16:45:37  <frosch123> ok, but that setting does not control anything wrt. the passing-through
16:48:34  <frosch123> and the pass-through already was in ottd 0.1
16:48:46  <frosch123> so, that setting had nothing to do with it, ever
16:49:20  <frosch123> so, the setting name still makes no sense :p
16:50:21  <Eddi|zuHause> that may be true :)
16:52:56  <frosch123> maybe it only refers to that the quantum effects are very likely to occur when enabling the queueing
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18:46:32  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24756 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2012-11-19 18:46:23 UTC)
18:46:33  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:34  <DorpsGek> korean - 8 changes by telk5093
18:46:35  <DorpsGek> romanian - 20 changes by kkmic
18:46:36  <DorpsGek> swedish - 1 changes by Joel_A
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19:32:51  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24757 trunk/src/lang/greek.txt (2012-11-19 19:32:45 UTC)
19:32:52  <DorpsGek> -Fix: broken Greek translation
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19:47:39  <andythenorth> lo
19:47:56  <Rubidium> ahoi andythenorth
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20:19:09  <frosch123> night
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20:30:22  <Wolf01> hello o/
20:32:38  <Wolf01> I almost had an heartache, I found my desktop pc with a 800x600 resolution, weird video drivers, extremely slow...
20:33:13  <__ln__> and then you set it back to the old and familiar 640x480
20:33:21  <Wolf01> yeah
20:34:18  <Wolf01> I had to restart in safe mode to be able to install the latest version of the video drivers
20:35:51  <Wolf01> maybe it's taking it's revenge as I started to use extensively my asus slate
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22:04:22  <Terkhen> good night
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22:09:04  <krinn> hi guys, vehicle state are bits? i mean a vehicle at station might have VS_RUNNING + VS_AT_STATION or only one or the other ?
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22:17:10  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no VS_RUNNING, but yes, the VS_ bits are a bitmask
22:17:41  <krinn> VS_RUNNING 	The vehicle is currently running.
22:17:47  <krinn> :)
22:17:49  <Eddi|zuHause> where?
22:17:55  <krinn>
22:18:57  <krinn> i wonder what AIVehicle.GetState will return for a vehicle at station so, both VS_RUNNING+VS_AT_STATION ?
22:19:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't find these in the code at all
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22:21:20  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: no, those seem to be a simple enum
22:21:31  <Eddi|zuHause> so it can't be two values at the same time
22:21:45  <krinn> i have test, yes, one or the other
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22:22:01  <Afdal> Hey, any developers around?
22:22:19  <krinn> looks like VS_AT_STATION imply anyway VS_RUNNING else it whould be VS_STOPPED || VS_CRASHED
22:23:04  <Eddi|zuHause> if (v->current_order.IsType(OT_LOADING)) return ScriptVehicle::VS_AT_STATION;
22:23:16  <krinn> afdal, ask your question, except if your question was really to know if dev are near, which i'm sure is not your question
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22:24:09  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, i suppose a crashed/stopped vehicle won't be OT_LOADING even if it is at station no?
22:24:18  <Eddi|zuHause> correct
22:24:27  <krinn> ok thank your Eddi|zuHause
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22:25:24  <Eddi|zuHause> "if the employee dies during a buisiness trip, the business trip is considered to have ended"
22:25:45  <Eddi|zuHause> [paraphrased, but this is an actual sentence in the german law]
22:26:41  <krinn> lol, to make sure the other trip fees the employee now is taking won't be endorse by the company ?
22:26:59  <krinn> in case God decide to make people pay for the trip :)
22:27:25  <Afdal> I ask this question a lot and I need a developer to answer it
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22:27:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it is primarily because of money, it's just a bureaucracy issue
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22:29:41  <krinn> Afdal, could "maybe" answer it ?
22:30:05  <Afdal> I think I'll just wait
22:30:13  <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, it's in what ? work law ?
22:30:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: a developer will _never ever_ answer to the question "is a developer here"
22:30:35  <Afdal> Whenever other people try to answer it it's usually just some condescending argument like "why are you playing like that" :(
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22:31:07  <Afdal> well gee
22:31:14  <Afdal> Hey planetmaker, you on?
22:31:19  <krinn> lol so devs are not condescendant ? it comes with the status, be dev, get the condescendant shield up
22:32:27  <krinn> Afdal, for your information, Eddi|zuHause is a stealth one
22:32:34  <krinn> but don't tell him i've told you !
22:32:41  <Afdal> ono {:
22:32:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i saw that!
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22:33:03  <krinn> erf, someone stole my nick !
22:33:56  <Afdal> well
22:34:00  <Afdal> all right..
22:34:13  <krinn> just ask your question dude
22:34:32  <krinn> you won't die getting condescendant answer, and you even may get a nice one
22:34:37  <Afdal> Can anyone explain this behavior to me?
22:35:02  <Afdal> I'd like to understand how the pathfinding works such that this happens
22:35:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: the pathfinder is deterministic, so when both the left and the right path return equal values, it will always pick the same path
22:35:43  <krinn> so it's an easy question, basic pathfinding
22:35:45  <Afdal> Aren't those paths the same?
22:35:57  <Afdal> Why would it choose a different path just by moving the waypoint
22:36:10  <krinn> no the waypoint could add an extra cost/hit/determining point to the pathfinder
22:36:40  <Afdal> I just want to know exactly why though
22:36:53  <Afdal> how
22:36:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: there's a pathfinder debug mode
22:37:03  <Afdal> Oh?
22:37:09  <krinn> because pathfinder works like that, costs to find the path
22:37:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: go to the console and say "debug_level pf=3" or so
22:37:23  <Afdal> okay
22:37:37  <Eddi|zuHause> it may not be too meaningful, though
22:37:38  <Afdal> what does the pf number do?
22:38:10  <Eddi|zuHause> in general, debug level 0 means "only the most important errors", and debug level 9 means "every fucking detail you have"
22:38:20  <Afdal> hah
22:38:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the steps in between are not always different, but sometimes
22:38:31  <planetmaker> Afdal, different paths NEVER can be the same. The PF is deterministic
22:38:43  <planetmaker> even when they're mirrored, they're different
22:39:00  <Afdal> So how are they err differently different in those two examples?
22:39:32  <planetmaker> order of tiles. And I don't know the orders of the trains. So I cannot even remotely tell
22:39:55  <Afdal> there are no trains ahead of the track on those to influence the decision
22:40:07  <Afdal> oh order
22:40:15  <Afdal> Just the waypoint is in the orders
22:40:39  <krinn> the waypoint position influence decision too
22:40:40  <planetmaker> obviously. So PF'ing ends at the order
22:40:47  <planetmaker> and you wonder that paths are different?
22:41:15  <planetmaker> like krinn says.
22:41:17  <Afdal> Well, I'd like to understand it enough that I can predict what path a train will take in such a situation
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22:41:31  <Afdal> But isn't the waypoint on the same position for each path?
22:41:42  <krinn> if you bad at prediciting, try, once it take it, it will always take the same
22:41:44  <planetmaker> left != right
22:41:56  <planetmaker> and behind tunnel != before tunnel
22:42:01  <Afdal> I mean
22:42:05  <planetmaker> so each of the 4 paths differs
22:42:10  <Afdal> aren't they equal in each example?
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22:42:29  <Afdal> I just don't understand how moving it past the tunnel completely changes the path preference
22:42:30  <planetmaker> and why which is chosen can reliably only be told when you actually do the calculations and look at the code to see what happens how to break ties
22:42:36  <Afdal> That's what I want to know
22:43:04  <planetmaker> the code is the documentation
22:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: pathfinding works (roughly) after the "A* algorithm", i.e. you make a list of "next" tiles at each branch, and then pick the tile with the lowest distance, pick the next tile, add their distances, and insert it back into the list. whether the left path or the right path gets to the destination first is deterministic for each track layout, but (even marginally) different track layouts may change the order of destination tiles which
22:43:09  <Eddi|zuHause> are reached
22:43:40  <krinn> Afdal, look at a* doc, you will get the picture easy
22:43:48  <planetmaker> I'm afraid that there's no more satisfying answer than these given
22:43:50  <Afdal> a* doc?
22:43:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: my guess is that the switches before the tunnel entrance make the difference
22:43:58  <planetmaker> No-one, I fear, knows more by heart than this
22:44:05  <Afdal> -_-
22:44:07  <planetmaker> and all beyond is looking at the actual implementation
22:44:33  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: a left switch is handled differently than a right switch, wrt. the order of the exits
22:44:45  <Afdal> Hmm, I'm getting "Unknown debug level pf=3." when I try that zuHause
22:44:45  <Eddi|zuHause> and that jumbles up your perceived calculation order
22:44:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: then leave out the =
22:45:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. make a space
22:45:20  <krinn> here's an animated gif of a* working
22:46:10  <Afdal> `that doesn't seem to work either zuHause
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22:46:19  <planetmaker> Afdal, and wrt "you need a developer": you need a person familiar with that particular part of the code. I guess many AI authors, e.g. like krinn know its behavioru and workings similarily well as anyone who is listed as developer
22:46:19  <Eddi|zuHause> "debug_level pf 3"
22:46:39  <planetmaker> it's condescending to assume otherwise ;-)
22:46:52  <Afdal> I:}
22:46:54  <krinn> ^^
22:47:20  <Afdal>
22:48:39  <michi_cc> It's yapf and not pf, but I doubt it will help you much.
22:48:41  <Afdal> Do I need a special build or something to get debug mode to work?
22:48:43  <planetmaker> pf is not a debugging thing. It's yapf
22:48:47  <Afdal> ohhh
22:48:59  <Afdal> thanks
22:49:06  <Afdal> now where do I see the output for this?
22:49:09  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, right
22:49:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: try "developer 2"
22:49:31  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:49:40  <krinn> Afdal, on developper console (lol yes condescending answer!)
22:49:46  <Eddi|zuHause> that should get you the debug output to the ingame console as well as to the outside console
22:49:54  <Afdal> aha
22:50:14  <Afdal> hmm
22:50:46  <Afdal> Now how do I read this YAPF gibberish...
22:51:19  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a thread at the forum trying to decipher that recently
22:51:35  <planetmaker> "recently" :-)
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22:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> "in the past few weeks"
22:52:24  <krinn> well, even understanding them will only answer why it pickup that path, not the answer he expect "how can i let it pickup the other path on next try"
22:52:45  <krinn> it was you real question no ? having it taking a path, than the other one next time?
22:53:01  <Afdal> Nah I just want to understand it really
22:53:03  <Afdal> I'm curious
22:53:12  <planetmaker> well. Picking the other path on next try... only feasible on cost of more code complexity. Which certainly is not welcome at that place
22:53:19  <Afdal> I don't think I can use this as an actual networking trick
22:53:20  <krinn> so seriously any basic tuto for a* will answer you better
22:53:31  <Afdal> What is A*
22:53:43  <planetmaker> a pf algorithm
22:53:45  <krinn> a star, basic algo for pathfinding in computer
22:53:47  <Afdal> ah
22:53:49  <planetmaker> read up on wiki for details
22:53:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: a modified dijkstra with a bias for "air distance"
22:54:26  <krinn> just wikipedia should answer your curiousity imo
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22:55:00  <Eddi|zuHause> a bachelor level computer science course should answer it as well :)
22:55:13  <krinn> lol no with easy sample
22:55:19  * planetmaker didn'th ave that and used wiki :-P
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22:58:23  * planetmaker now will not only read up on but implement and make use of a tool called 'bed'. ;-)
22:58:26  <planetmaker> night everyone :-)
22:58:36  <krinn> night planetmaker
22:58:45  <Flygon> Hyvaa yota
22:59:46  <Eddi|zuHause> that looks finnish, but misses lots of 'À's
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23:00:37  <Afdal> where can I find that yapf thread you were talking about
23:00:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i know a lot, but i'm not a search engine...
23:01:04  <Afdal> Is this it?
23:01:31  <Eddi|zuHause> that looks right, but maybe you should use the official url :)
23:03:23  <Flygon> Eddi: Lack of appropriate keyboard
23:04:01  <Eddi|zuHause> dead keys or compose key :)
23:04:13  <Afdal> doesn't alt-132 work for you
23:04:31  <Afdal> if you're on Windows
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23:07:14  <Flygon> Afdal: Not in X-Chat, it seems
23:07:18  *** Psyk [] has joined #openttd
23:07:20  <Afdal> :o
23:07:42  <krinn> there's xchat for windows no?
23:08:12  <Flygon> Hyaáá test
23:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause> might need a alt+0132
23:08:16  <Flygon> ...
23:08:28  <Flygon> I used the wrong a, probably
23:08:41  <__ln__> Flygon:
23:08:43  <Flygon> krinn: Yes
23:08:43  <krinn> À ?
23:08:57  <__ln__> Flygon: should be available on windows
23:08:58  <Flygon> krinn: That was probably what I was looking to copypasta
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23:09:53  <Flygon> Okay, turns out the alt trick works in Notepad @_@
23:10:46  <Flygon> I lack an 'Alt Gr' button
23:10:52  <Flygon> It's not a full sized keyboard
23:11:19  <Flygon> One of those laptop keyboards that somehow fits a numpad
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23:13:53  <Eddi|zuHause> historically, altgr should be simulated by ctrl+alt
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23:14:49  <krinn> you can exect an echo in xchat no ?
23:14:55  <krinn> execute
23:15:18  <krinn> lol i'll try
23:15:58  <krinn> ah doesn't work, is not echoing it
23:21:24  <Flygon> Ehh
23:21:30  <Flygon> Let's best not worry about it :p
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23:32:38  <Mister_Argent> 'ello.
23:32:44  * Mister_Argent is playing with the scenario editor.
23:33:40  <Afdal> Well that debug output didn't help me out as much as I thought it would :(
23:33:56  <Mister_Argent> Quick question, do i just use the bomb tool to remove unneeded towns?
23:34:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: you could try if debug level 9 gives you more spam ;)
23:34:26  <Afdal> level 3 is the max output for yapf
23:34:47  <Afdal> Click on the town name Mister_Argent
23:34:52  <Mister_Argent> ah.
23:34:56  <Afdal> There's a delete option that will wipe it out completely
23:35:00  <Mister_Argent> Why didn't i think of that?
23:35:03  <Afdal> :3
23:35:21  * Mister_Argent finishes off knocking out a few islands for hand remodelling
23:35:44  <krinn> Afdal : look
23:36:05  <Afdal> >.>
23:36:46  <krinn> it's an easy to understand doc
23:36:48  <Mister_Argent> I'm mostly letting the random generator do it's work for my first scenario but i am throwing in one or two named cities and doing some remodelling to make the islands a little sparser
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23:37:34  <Mister_Argent> Say, what happens when two cities collide?
23:37:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: i'm still fairly convinced that the asymmetric switches are the key to the difference
23:37:54  <Afdal> asymmetric switches?
23:38:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: before the tunnel entrance
23:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> the left track has a right switch, and the right track has a left switch
23:38:26  <Afdal> uhhh
23:38:28  <Afdal> oh
23:38:32  <Afdal> hmmm
23:38:33  <Eddi|zuHause> which means the trackbits differ
23:38:36  <Afdal> that could explain it
23:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> and the trackbits have different order
23:38:50  <Afdal> it would have to cycle through those slightly differently int he pathfinding wouldn't it
23:39:22  <Afdal> let me try making them both the same...
23:40:24  <Afdal> :o
23:40:39  <Afdal> hmm, nope
23:40:55  <Mister_Argent> hmm, so that's what a 10,000-population city looks like.
23:41:00  <Afdal> they're still opposite despite identical distances to waypoint
23:41:41  <Afdal> depends on the road layout Mister_Argent ;)
23:42:09  <Afdal> oh that wasn't a question
23:42:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: you could add additional debug statements to the follow_track function (but be careful with looking at the yapf code, people have reportedly gone insane :p)
23:42:10  <Mister_Argent> well, the cities of Bungeling Bay North and Bungeling Bay South are both lookin' pretty sprawly :p
23:42:27  <Afdal> How would I do that?
23:42:29  <Mister_Argent> BNorth has a hearty population of 10,243 and BSouth has 10,455
23:42:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: grep for DEBUG
23:42:55  <Afdal> Huh?
23:43:09  <Afdal> grep?
23:43:12  <krinn> afdal i think it's because a* implementation
23:43:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: assuming you have a working compile environment :)
23:43:28  <krinn> when both line are the same value, you need to favorite one or the other
23:43:29  <Afdal> oh you want me to compile @_@
23:43:38  <Afdal> What's OpenTTD written in again
23:43:45  <Eddi|zuHause> C++
23:43:46  <krinn> if implementation favor upper, you get higher score upper
23:43:48  <Mister_Argent> 6502 Assembly
23:43:52  <Afdal> lol
23:44:32  <Afdal> well the pathfinding values are the same so yeah it's something about choosiness in node cycling
23:44:47  <Mister_Argent> And my first scenario is complete!
23:45:04  <Afdal> congrats
23:45:10  <Mister_Argent> The Bungeling Isles, a 2048x2048 chain of somewhat connected islands dotted with industries and cities.
23:45:43  <Mister_Argent> Now then, time to give it a spin in singleplayer to see if it's actually any fun to play.
23:45:52  <krinn> and Afdal the waypoint change the scoring
23:46:23  <Afdal> yeah the pathfinding values are different between the two examples, but equal among the track split choices
23:46:24  <krinn> one must pathfinding upto behind the tunnels, while the other pathfind upto the waypoint (and will repathfindind after the waypoint)
23:46:28  <Afdal> yeah
23:47:10  <Afdal> in the tunnel version there are 3 closed nodes while the shorter one only has one closed node
23:48:11  <Mister_Argent> The somewhat problematic terrain, thus far, has limited rail as a immediately practical option a little. Still plenty of landbridges around, though.
23:48:27  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: that's to be expected when you have 4 tunnels
23:48:43  *** Psyk [] has joined #openttd
23:48:55  <Afdal> yeah
23:49:02  <Mister_Argent> Still, the idea here was to set up a map where the usual strategies for profit may not be the most effective so that was kind of the idea
23:50:16  <Afdal> What's interesting is when I remove a bit of track at the tunnel splits so that there's no longer a choice there
23:50:29  <Afdal> it reverts back to the preference when the waypoints are right after the track split
23:50:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that supports my theory
23:51:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that the switches cause the difference
23:51:31  <Afdal> yeah
23:51:34  <Afdal> somehow....
23:54:55  *** drac_boy [] has joined #openttd
23:55:01  <drac_boy> hi
23:55:14  <krinn> hi
23:55:32  <drac_boy> how're you krinn?
23:58:52  <krinn> fine and tired, must be the late time :p
23:59:24  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:59:26  <krinn> and you ?

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