Log for #openttd on 20th November 2012:
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00:00:23  <drac_boy> heh
00:00:33  <drac_boy> doing ok, just browsing online a bit now....quiet night to myself here :)
00:02:36  <Afdal> What I don't understand is how the yapf output is giving values like 942 for pathfinding penalty
00:02:52  <Afdal> Most penalties are in multiples of 100
00:03:02  <Afdal> no wait all of them all
00:03:06  <Afdal> by default
00:03:19  <Afdal> all of them are*
00:03:43  <Afdal> Unless there are more penalties that can't be found in openttd.cfg
00:03:48  <Eddi|zuHause> there's things like red/green signal penalty which is a polynom
00:03:58  <krinn> yapf.rail_look_ahead_signal_p2 = 5
00:04:10  <Afdal> but you can't get 42 from 5
00:04:23  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a coefficient
00:04:29  <krinn> it is my settings here, you may have a different one :)
00:04:40  <Afdal> I missed that penalty
00:04:45  <Afdal> still 5 isn't a multiple of 42
00:04:49  <Eddi|zuHause> p2*x^2+p1*x+p0 or so
00:04:52  <Afdal> hmm
00:04:54  <Afdal> oh
00:05:01  <krinn> grep yapf openttd.cfg
00:05:09  <Eddi|zuHause> where x is the number of the signal and whether it's red or green
00:05:10  <Afdal> grep?
00:05:21  <krinn> i get 32 results
00:05:26  <Afdal> Why do you people keep saying "grep" @_@
00:05:38  <V453000> you are still talking about that? :D
00:05:44  <Afdal> :D
00:05:47  <Eddi|zuHause> "grep" is named after the unix tool that searches through files for certain words
00:05:48  <krinn> you don't know grep ?
00:05:52  <Afdal> no
00:05:54  <Afdal> ah
00:06:00  <krinn> it's a command to grab a word inside something
00:06:16  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like "google" where the name of the program became the action of using the program
00:06:33  <Eddi|zuHause> just that this was 30 years ago :)
00:06:39  <krinn> :)
00:06:39  <Afdal> Is that the only polynomial penalty zuHause?
00:06:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: not entirely sure
00:07:17  <Afdal> and it's just a quadratic function?
00:07:42  <Eddi|zuHause> at least that's how i remember it
00:08:06  <Afdal> Wait so what is that look ahead signal penalty and how does it work?
00:08:10  <Eddi|zuHause> this was introduced 5 years ago, i don't remember every detail
00:08:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: it's some rudimentary load balancing
00:08:34  <Afdal> that's the only penalty I've never understood
00:09:10  <Afdal> And what is x?
00:09:13  <Afdal> in p2*x^2+p1*x+p0
00:09:17  <Eddi|zuHause> depending on where the first red signal on the track is, the train may decide to take the other path if the length are almost equal
00:09:55  <Eddi|zuHause> x should be the position of the signal, counted from the current location of the train
00:10:07  <Afdal> distance in tiles?
00:10:15  <Eddi|zuHause> no, number of the signal
00:10:42  <Afdal> so it only looks ahead three signals for that penalty?
00:10:52  <Eddi|zuHause> no
00:10:55  <Afdal> <.<
00:11:35  <krinn> you were expecting Eddi|zuHause to writing it for every signals in the screenshots ? :)
00:11:47  <Eddi|zuHause> the first signal gets penalty p2+p1+p0, the second signal penalty p2*4+p1*2+p0, the third signal p2*9+p1*3+p0 and so on
00:12:01  <Afdal> ahhh
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00:12:44  <Afdal> and that's if the signal is red right?
00:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> by default the limit is 10 signals ahead
00:13:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. it should only add the penalty for red signals
00:13:06  <Afdal> if they're all green there's no penalty right
00:13:15  <krinn> did you enable showing path in openttd ?
00:13:19  <Afdal> yes
00:13:37  <krinn> should gave a better visual result than the numbers no ?
00:14:04  <Afdal> uh, no...
00:14:05  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: that won't show the pathfinder result
00:14:20  <Afdal> thanks cool
00:14:21  <krinn> no, but a bit of track the pathfinder is seeing
00:14:27  <Afdal> I've never understood how that penalty works
00:15:40  <krinn> the concept ?
00:15:44  <Mister_Argent> Ah, here comes the team of AI Partycrashers.
00:16:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Mister_Argent: i always disable AIs
00:16:21  <Afdal> yeah, could figure out easily enough how the other penalties in openttd.cfg work just by their name
00:16:25  <Mister_Argent> I'm testing out a scenario in singleplayer. wanna make sure it's as fun to play as my concept made it sound...
00:16:26  <krinn> it's quiet easy: put nails in right path, lol must be a penalty for human without shoes
00:19:35  <Afdal> although now I'm still confused on how I'm getting numbers like 942 when there aren't any red signals ahead of the paths on this example I'm using to test
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00:22:00  <krinn> this look a low value for me
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00:22:20  <Afdal> Well I'm tired of this for now
00:22:26  <krinn> yapf.rail_lastred_exit_penalty = 10000
00:22:27  <Afdal> Thanks for the info you two
00:22:33  <krinn> so 942 is a low value
00:22:37  <Afdal> low value?
00:22:39  <Afdal> oh
00:22:57  <krinn> well if you get 10000 penalty, you can say 942 is quiet a low value then
00:23:15  <krinn> as i have penalty from 5 to 10000
00:23:49  <krinn> big range
00:25:03  <krinn> some are even negative in my config :)
00:25:04  <Eddi|zuHause> ~900 means about 9 tiles
00:25:45  <krinn> yapf.rail_look_ahead_max_signals = 10
00:25:46  <krinn>  (for previous question to Eddi|zuHause )
00:25:48  <Eddi|zuHause> sp a penalty of 10000 means "consider a detour of 100 tiles before you try to go here"
00:27:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: also penalties may be multiplied by 0.7 for diagonal trackbits, not entirely sure
00:27:45  <Afdal> Oh really?
00:27:59  <krinn> Afdal, hehe were you thinking it was that easy
00:28:05  <Afdal> -_-
00:28:50  <krinn> going to bed guys, sleep well
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00:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: maybe you should really learn to read code to answer this kind of questions yourself :)
00:29:59  <Afdal> I can read code
00:30:06  <Afdal> Not that great at C++ though
00:30:20  <Eddi|zuHause> all of this penalty stuff should be in the follow_track function
00:30:36  <Afdal> follow_track function?
00:31:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Afdal: the pathfinder is this hughe templated conglomerate, and the "follow_track" function is the only thing that differs between the road, rail, ship, ... pathfinders
00:31:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. the function that decides which tiles are adjacent to this one
00:32:02  <Afdal> No I mean can I see that function
00:32:18  <Eddi|zuHause> you can grep the code :)
00:32:21  <Afdal> -_-
00:32:28  <Eddi|zuHause> again, i'm not a search engine :)
00:32:35  <Afdal> Maybe I will
00:32:37  <Afdal> someday
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00:35:57  <spartanfreak72> hello
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00:37:33  <Eddi|zuHause> bye...
00:37:48  <Eddi|zuHause> (people...)
00:40:09  <Eddi|zuHause> # And when I was born, they looked at me and said, "What a good boy, what a smart boy, what a strong boy."
00:40:12  <Eddi|zuHause> # When you were born, they looked at you and said, "What a good girl, what a smart girl, what a pretty girl."
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01:25:46  * drac_boy pokes flygon?
01:25:47  <drac_boy> heh
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01:44:30  <Flygon> drac_boy
01:57:14  <drac_boy> so what doing? :)
01:58:50  <Flygon> Just got home
01:58:50  <Flygon> So
01:58:53  <Flygon> Relaxing
02:13:14  <drac_boy> :p
02:14:39  <drac_boy> flygon btw if you're ok with train stories as usual heres another one....
02:14:47  <Flygon> Shoot
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02:17:01  <drac_boy> tehachapi loop originally built by southern pacific ... one end of it heads toward a tunnel on upgrade ... so anyway this photographer decided to take his free day to go take some photos but he came across one unexpected little surprise...
02:17:56  <drac_boy> heavy freight with 3 units on head and one helper on rear .. but one head unit was dead ... train slowly headed toward tunnel still but then engineer finally decided for the best and carefully stopped the train to back it into the siding (which is on the loop itself eh) ...
02:19:08  <drac_boy> dispatcher sent other trains around it including one "dinky" local (just one emd SD9 and a few random wagons) ... then finally found some help in another freight that was heading other direction ...
02:19:40  <drac_boy> this train came to a stop and tied down in the siding .. and the three unit then cut off to bank the initial train up through the tunnel
02:20:11  <drac_boy> photographer sure took a lot of photos of that one day heh
02:20:18  <Flygon> Hehehe
02:20:32  <Flygon> Here, if a unit is dead, it's usually on fire
02:20:39  <Flygon> Dynamic brake failure
02:21:09  <drac_boy> still you do have to wonder .. a 3+1 train with only 2+1 working ... so it decided to hold the siding while the lone helper went away to keep mainline free till some help could be found which then made it a 2+3 train which was good enough for them!
02:22:09  <drac_boy> flygon and btw in the early years of diesels and when certain 'extras' were considered costly for their uses .. you sometimes could find certain locomotives looking oddly out of their place like they were not on their home rails anymore....
02:22:25  <Flygon> Oh?
02:22:56  <drac_boy> like for example if you saw a freight train coming down with heavy brake smoke curls and the leading diesel has no radiator flares .. you're looking at a flatland locomotive that somehow got pressed into the hilly route instead
02:23:08  <drac_boy> aka .. no dynamic brakes at all
02:24:30  <drac_boy> or a emd GP9 looking like its walloping a lot even although the track is not that bad .. some of the early ones had switcher trucks rather than road trucks .. so they didn't ride so well under constant speed :)
02:25:13  <Flygon> Oh geeze @_@
02:25:15  <Flygon> Sounds like fun
02:25:49  <drac_boy> and then theres of course the few locomotives that didn't have the standard 24L brake stand ... which was not too uncommon at first
02:26:05  <drac_boy> flygon which of that reminds me....
02:27:10  <drac_boy> I forgot which railroad it was but if you ever see a high-nose emd geep with two fat tubes on its roof ... thats what a lot of people joking call them "torpedo tube geeps" ... since they do look like THAT on their roof :)
02:27:15  <drac_boy> there was a reason for that tho heh
02:27:53  <drac_boy> steam generator could fit into the high nose no problem .. but water supply is another thing .. so shorten the fuel tank a bit .. and fill up the rest of space with water .. and force the air tanks up to the top of the roof instead ... there we go!
02:29:13  <drac_boy> flygon this is a bit different twist on it but still you can see why the resemble to actual tubes :p
02:29:32  <Flygon> Doesn't seem that bad
02:32:31  <drac_boy> flygon btw its old story but when there were still a lot of coach tradings and/or moves around major stations ... that were where you almost always could find a 0-6-0 or 0-8-0 switcher running around causing a lot of smoke everywhere ....
02:33:10  <Flygon> Lack of 0-4-0 shunters?
02:34:14  <drac_boy> and one of the interesting thing that they had over diesels for a while in the 40-50's was they were too good at doing a drop-shunt ... back onto the platform track needed ... move throttle to neutral .. drop the coupler ... shove throttle forward .. and the loco itself scat like a stray cat
02:34:30  <drac_boy> thats what happen when you got pressure build-up in the cylinders .. something a diesel-electric never can emulate
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02:34:47  <drac_boy> so mm yeah they could make some pretty fast shuntings if needed to
02:35:05  <Flygon> Heh, nice
02:35:22  <drac_boy> and btw flygon .. a 0-4-0 has almost nothing to stop its siderod inherita from causing the two axles to wallop like silly and possibly causing it to derail a lot
02:35:28  <drac_boy> thats why it was always at least three axles period
02:35:55  <Flygon> Ah, gotcha
02:37:06  <drac_boy> for fast example is when a train comes in at 11:27 .. and two wagons have to be re-spotted for another train that has to leave at 11:36 ... nine minutes isn't a lot of times to get THAT one in order while still being mindful of other trains/shunters using the large station throat as well :)
02:37:24  <drac_boy> so heh yeah .. no wonder about all these little locos scattering everywhere :)
02:37:42  <Flygon> It sounds like a logistical nightmare
02:37:53  <drac_boy> well flygon...
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02:41:03  <drac_boy> Bufallo had a lot of trains that never left in the same consist they came in
02:41:37  <drac_boy> so...yeah just about any schedule you saw on the station list board .. there was always at least one or more wagon that had to be traded to another train :)
02:42:00  <drac_boy> and made worser by NYC having to run a lot of second sections
02:43:31  <drac_boy> flygon but of course if you wanted the exact opposite then .. in the 50's there were a lot of small railroads around the middle usa belt ... many of them were mixed trains like I told you about before ... never in any rush or anything :)
02:44:06  <Flygon> Explains why they died out
02:44:18  <drac_boy> so yeah could be nothing like seeing an old journal bearing locomotive huffing into the little shed-sized station with an old wood coalstove-heated combine on its tail
02:44:41  <drac_boy> and yet as soon as you get off to catch the next station .. suddenly theres a modern big 4-8-2 with a string of lightweight coaches :P
02:44:59  <Flygon> O_o
02:46:11  <drac_boy> same thing happened to some riders heading toward the marinetime provinces in canada too .. nothing like a big contrast between an old 1897-built 2-6-0 with no stroker dropping you off at the station then some time later theres suddenly this "huge" Royal Hudson locomotive coming in with a long string of heavyweight coaches
02:47:03  <drac_boy> can't fault anyone tho heh.. the old little locomotive was running on weedy light rails doing its usual occassional freight duties while the Hudson is running a daily express train on fresh heavy rails :p
02:48:54  <drac_boy> flygon of course there were a few places in usa where you had some strange contrasts ... eg how about a 1912-built standard gauge 2-8-0 meeting a 1926-built two feet gauge 2-6-2 at the dual gauge station/shed?
02:49:19  <drac_boy> the little locomotive may be newer but that was the only thing it had going for it .. the older locomotive was better in everything else respectly
02:49:27  <drac_boy> think about that eh? :)
02:50:00  <Flygon> Same stuff has had happened here, actually
02:50:12  <Flygon> Australia is NITORIOUS for gauge breaks
02:50:38  <drac_boy> well dual gauge is rather rare in usa .. so such meets .. even less with the weird age difference is rather unusual :)
02:51:03  <Flygon> It has not been unusual to have a 1890s NG train, 1950s R-class BG Steam Train, and 1980s EMU be in the same station :p
02:51:38  <drac_boy> the only one two-gauge-meets that was even anywhere common at all was in colorado ... D&RGW themself with their mix of the standard gauge and mountain narrow gauge
02:52:02  <Flygon> It's tiny o_o
02:52:56  <Flygon> Ahh
02:53:07  <Flygon> Here, we've had even triple gauge
02:54:06  <drac_boy> actually one photo put it nicely of an old K-27 looking at a rio grande GP9 heading other way on seperate tracks ... the caption basically said "while the freight train set off on ctc protected rails with diesel power the durango train set off for the mountains on train order with hand fired steam lococmotive"
02:54:10  <Flygon> SG, BG, and NG, SG for NSW services, BG for SA and Vic services, and NG for NT services. The location is inside SA.
02:54:55  <Flygon> Heh...
02:55:00  <Flygon> 1940s?
02:55:09  <drac_boy> flygon .. 1940-1950s roughly
02:55:37  <drac_boy> and btw flygon the crazy thing was that even in the 1950s there were still some younger firemans that just did not really want to do anything else....
02:56:19  <Flygon> I guess they got forced into driving and conducting?
02:56:24  <Flygon> It happened here
02:56:33  <Flygon> Also, would you believe this happened in 1988? :p
02:56:59  <drac_boy> eg a heavy drag 2-10-0 with a long-broken stroker that wasn't on the fix card (can't blame anyone...costs were going up and theres these diesels slowly coming) .... of course to compound matters .. the route was on weedy rails that had a very bouncy ride even for the five coupled fireman was quite busy with that....
02:57:13  <Flygon> R707 being of particular note, keeping in active duty from the 50s to today :D
02:57:32  <drac_boy> and at end of run ... a bit beat but actually had to say "god, I love that locomotive!" ... heh ... editor added his own note "this is why you don't get any sastification from running diesels, case closed!"
02:57:34  <Flygon> Only ONE fireman? O_O?
02:58:14  <drac_boy> the editor did have a point .. steam locomotives took skill etc .. but diesels were just open throttle and not much else
02:58:34  <drac_boy> btw flygon I need to ask you a stupid question...
02:58:40  <Flygon> I thought electrics were all throttle :p
02:59:02  <Flygon> Heck, we have electrics here with only one throttle. X'traps have a single lever for speed and brakes
02:59:06  <drac_boy> that ba_gladstone photo... do the vestibules on different gauges EVEN mate at all or not so much?  I'm wondering about the two very different coaches there
03:00:04  <drac_boy> oic nevermind..almost forgot what time it was...going to bed now
03:00:07  <Flygon> Probably
03:00:08  <drac_boy> see you some another time ok? :/
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03:00:15  <Flygon> You can yank stuff with chain cou-
03:00:18  <Flygon> I didn't get to say Good Night
03:00:22  <Flygon> :(
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03:31:07  <BadBrett> "Unrecognized identifier 'age' encountered"
03:31:35  <BadBrett> When I try to use the "age" variable in a house switch block
03:31:40  <BadBrett> strange
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03:36:02  <BadBrett> oh my mistake
03:36:10  <BadBrett> as usual :)
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05:31:17  <Tiktalik> So what's OpenTTD
05:31:42  <Flygon> You build trains and crash them for fun
05:32:09  <Flygon> And then bribe the authorities so that they 'forget' your past crashes
05:32:12  <Tiktalik> ...So basically, a railroad building game?
05:32:23  <Flygon> While mindwashing the public with large advertising campaigns
05:32:25  <Flygon> Basically
05:32:32  <Flygon> It's a transport simulation game
05:32:36  <Flygon> Not just railroad :)
05:34:08  <Tiktalik> Oh, okay.
05:34:10  <Tiktalik> Is there a tutorial?
05:35:13  <Flygon> Uuuh
05:35:15  <Flygon> Good question
05:35:20  <Flygon> There's a very good manual
05:35:30  <Flygon> But the best way to learn is really to play and ask for help...
05:35:45  <Flygon> Railroads, in particular, can be a huge case of "I'm way in over my head"
05:37:01  <Tiktalik> Flygon: What things should I download for it, and should I use the Reddit version, or the stable version
05:40:33  <Flygon> I recommend the one from here
05:40:53  <Flygon> Manual here
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05:55:00  <Flygon> Tiktalik, by the way. Another good way to learn, is to play with others, that may be willing to help teach
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06:53:32  <Tiktalik> I have A BUSSSS
07:00:31  <Tiktalik> Flygon: How do you get airports to...make more profit?
07:01:51  <Flygon> Airports work best when adjacent to large cities
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07:09:34  <Tiktalik> Flygon: Is 500 large enough?
07:09:42  <Flygon> 500 passengers?
07:09:55  <Tiktalik> Flygon: Population
07:10:16  <Tiktalik> nvm
07:10:18  <Tiktalik> better idea
07:10:20  <Flygon> 500 uh
07:10:23  <Flygon> Yeah, isn't much
07:10:23  <Tiktalik> wait on airports until cities get bigger
07:10:31  <Tiktalik> start a new game
07:10:34  <Flygon> Airports work best on 2500+
07:10:34  <Tiktalik> and play better tomorrow
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09:19:40  <NGC3982> Morning.
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09:36:04  <peter1138> Morning
09:36:24  <NGC3982>
09:36:27  <NGC3982> That looks odd
09:36:34  <NGC3982> It can't find a way to the depot..
09:41:08  <peter1138> Put a signal closer to it
09:41:13  <peter1138> (also, use path signals properly)
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09:50:43  <peter1138> ((or don't use them, i suppose))
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10:59:55  <Eddi|zuHause> the track layout needs some thought as well :)
11:00:28  <Eddi|zuHause> switching from left side to right side within a junction is asking for trouble :p
11:01:35  <V453000> czech page but amazing image :D
11:02:59  <Eddi|zuHause>
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11:07:45  <V453000> :DD
11:07:46  <V453000> thats nice
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12:01:17  * MNIM chuckles
12:01:19  <MNIM> nice, V453000
12:02:24  <MNIM> also, lol, switching from left to right in a junction is trouble?
12:02:38  <MNIM> it would make some of my junctions a lot easier!
12:03:30  <V453000> what do you actually mean switching left to right?
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12:14:44  <peter1138> drive-on-left to drive-on-right
12:36:44  <Flygon> Real men drive on the left
12:37:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the left side is not the right side
12:37:38  <Flygon> You're going to hate Australia
12:37:47  <Flygon> Except for when performing hook turns
12:38:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no real ambitions to go to australia :)
12:38:06  <Flygon> Aw
12:38:13  <Flygon> Not even to see the giant beer?
12:38:17  <Flygon> Or the giant Koala?
12:38:29  <Flygon> Or the giant Boxing Crocodile?
12:38:58  <Flygon>
12:39:32  <Eddi|zuHause> now that i have seen it on the internet... why would i need to go to australia then?
12:41:05  <Flygon> It looks bigger irl
12:41:12  <Flygon> You should also see our trains :B
12:41:31  <Eddi|zuHause> we have trains in germany as well... :)
12:42:01  <Flygon> We know
12:42:04  <Flygon> You help built them :P
12:42:37  <Flygon> A combination of German and Australian engineering. Shame it can't go as fast as it's design speed. Whooooooo, Australian tracks. =/
12:44:13  <Eddi|zuHause> over here they build tracks for a design speed of 300km/h, but no new trains will go that fast, and they have too few of the old trains anyway
12:44:28  <Flygon> Ahh
12:44:55  <Flygon> Here, we have tracks that handled the fast trains going over 200km/h in trials, but only handle 160km/h in service >_>"
12:45:14  <Flygon> Well, fast by Diesel standards
12:46:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, for >160km/h you need in-cab-signalling and no level crossings in germany
12:48:01  <Flygon> Same in Australia
12:48:05  <Eddi|zuHause> and for in-cab-signalling you have different system, like the old german LZB and the new european ETCS (level 2)
12:48:12  <Flygon> Though
12:48:20  <Flygon> You're allowed up to 180km/hish in overspeed
12:48:40  <Flygon> And apperantly some of my friends recorded over 190km/h with GPS.... overspeed protection disabled? @_@"
12:48:53  <MNIM> wait, Flygon
12:49:03  <MNIM> since when do trains go over 100kmh in australia?
12:49:19  <Flygon> Should I answer that seriously?
12:49:27  <MNIM> yes
12:49:32  <Flygon> Since around 1900 to 1910
12:49:37  <Eddi|zuHause> :)
12:49:43  <Flygon> But in regular service, I'd estimate around 1920 to 1930
12:49:58  <MNIM> 'cause I thought i learned somewhere that trains in australia were ridiculously slow.
12:50:10  <MNIM> like, 90kmh at most slow.
12:50:17  <Flygon> Ah
12:50:21  <Flygon> Depends on the region and line
12:51:03  <Flygon> eg. The Spirit of Progress (Steam Train) reached 138km/h in 1938ish (paper speed recorder ran out of paper)... it didn't go faster because it was getting over half an hour ahead of timetable, iirc
12:51:18  <Flygon> But usually ran between 80 to 115km/h
12:51:54  <Flygon> Modern trains go between 65 to 177km/h, depending on the line  and train
12:52:46  <Flygon> The TransWA Prospector will be upgraded to 200km/h, though (using very very similar rollingstock to the V/Line fast trains)
12:54:07  <Flygon> Most suburban lines in Victoria go between 65 to 115km/h (though, older EMU's have been accidentally driven up to 130km/h... only limitation is substation capacity and line length, or burning out the motors if you went too fast :p), with an average of 80km/hish
12:56:06  <Flygon> V/Line lines range between 80km/h to 160 (177)km/h, with 80km/h on lesser used branch lines (or because of unprotected level crossings), 115km/h for locomotive hauled trains (though, tests were conducted for 160km/h+ running in the 80s with a rebuilt A-class), and the fast trains go full speed, obviously
12:56:16  <Flygon> But I can only speak for Victoria in detail
12:57:46  <Flygon> New South Wales has a BR Intercity 125 derivative introdued around 1980 that goes 160km/h regulary (193km/h in tests, partially due to different gearing and crappy as hell tracks), Queensland has the QR Tilt Trains (Diesel and Electric versions) that top out @ 160km/h (210-230km/h in tests... whoo, Shinkansen :B), but rarely reach it because... shoddy tracks, not helped by Narrow Gauge >_>"
12:57:55  <Flygon> Point is
12:58:05  <Flygon> We have some 'fast' trains
12:58:49  <Flygon> But MNIM's right, many trains can be absurdly slow
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13:35:13  <NGC3982> Diagonal bridges.
13:35:14  <NGC3982> Yes please.
13:39:39  <Eddi|zuHause> interesting "switch":
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13:41:31  <__ln__> probably one that is used twice a decade, or something.
13:41:44  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that sounds about right :)
13:41:56  <Eddi|zuHause> afaik they delivered a transformer
13:42:52  <__ln__> delivering transformers is exactly the reason that i know of for such switches to exist
13:44:55  <Flygon> Oooh, diagonal bridges
13:44:57  * Flygon drools
13:45:20  <Flygon> But we'll probably get a cable car railtype before diagonal bridges...
13:46:12  <peter1138> Not surprising; the former can be done with NewGRFs already, the latter can't.
13:46:15  <Flygon> Even better, though
13:46:28  <Flygon> Would be flexible tunnels, inc sub-ocean
13:46:31  <Flygon> True subways!
13:47:06  <Flygon> I can't care if the Eurostar would be 10m a tile, it'd be a darned Eurostar :D
13:52:43  <MNIM> woah.
13:52:53  <MNIM> and here I thought mail didn't go by train any more.
13:52:53  <MNIM>
13:52:58  <MNIM> never too old to learn!
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13:54:04  <MNIM> NGC3982: where?
13:57:28  <Flygon> Aw
13:57:34  <Flygon> No English article
13:57:58  <Flygon> Oh
13:58:04  <Flygon> It's in French in English
13:58:05  <Flygon> ...
13:58:09  <Flygon> The English are idiots
13:59:58  <peter1138> Pardon?
14:01:06  <Flygon> The English speakers are a bit confusing in their article names
14:01:13  <Flygon> And I say that as a monolingualist :B
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14:03:23  <peter1138> Not really, it's the name of the thing it's talking about.
14:05:23  <Flygon> I would have presumed there'd be a redirect from 'TGV Postal' to 'SNCF TGV La Poste'
14:05:27  <Flygon> Ehh
14:05:31  <Flygon> But, you're right
14:05:37  <Flygon> I'm losing my nut over nothing
14:05:41  <Flygon> Sorry for the fuss x:
14:05:48  <peter1138> Don't lose your nuts, they're important.
14:06:05  <Flygon> On one hand, I want to make a witty remark
14:06:13  <Flygon> On the other, I don't want to be /kickban'd
14:06:30  <peter1138> I haven't done that for years :D
14:06:31  <Flygon> Because I cannnot figure out how to turn off my client's auto-rejoin
14:06:36  <Flygon> Lucky bugger
14:07:38  <Flygon> Then again
14:07:48  <Flygon> You know policing is working, when policing is unnecessary
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15:03:24  <frosch123> oh, confused simuscape with simutrans
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15:07:48  <peter1138> ?
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15:09:19  <Eddi|zuHause> this simuscape site is stupid...
15:09:27  <Eddi|zuHause> for AGES this captcha is broken
15:09:36  <Eddi|zuHause> they haven't responded to it in any way
15:11:30  <V453000> beyond all stupid
15:11:30  <supermop> maybe it's not a bug, maybe it's a feature
15:11:48  <peter1138> Well it's SAC...
15:11:57  <supermop> i don't imagine they are in a hurry to have new members
15:11:59  <Eddi|zuHause> reverse captcha... it lets computers through and blocks humans :)
15:15:49  <supermop> ok need to head into work
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16:21:30  <NGC3982> MNIM: Here!
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16:23:43  <MNIM> where here?
16:23:49  <MNIM> 'cause last time I looked, there
16:24:01  <MNIM> 's no diagonal bridges in OTTD.
16:25:01  <MNIM> also, whoops, I hadn't even noticed it was in dutch! XD
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16:28:47  <MNIM> So, let me get this straight.
16:29:22  <MNIM> the only high-speed train in the USA goes, on average, less than 120 in operation.
16:29:30  <MNIM> ...slower than dutch intercity material?
16:30:04  <Eddi|zuHause> passenger rail in the USA is horribly underdeveloped
16:30:27  <Eddi|zuHause> the only remotely busy non-commuter line is the "northeast corridor"
16:30:53  <Eddi|zuHause> everything else of the rail network is cargo dominated, and some commuter lines in urban areas
16:31:08  <MNIM> once again I feel I should be more than happy with the dutch public transport, but still Im not :P
16:31:24  <MNIM> I want that 160kmh that is supposed to be possible!
16:35:02  <MNIM> Or while we're at it, put a high-speed connection between Maastricht or Luik and Amsterdam and Schiphol.
16:35:24  <MNIM> now *that* would cut into my current daily commute of 4h total. :D
16:35:58  <Belugas> hello
16:37:26  <MNIM> And also I want that fast bus between Eindhoven and Den Bosch back. that would cut my commute time by half an hour :D
16:38:35  <MNIM> well, one hour total, that is
16:38:59  <frosch123> MNIM: dutch trains manage more than 120km/h average speed?
16:39:07  <frosch123> 120 feels a lot for _average_
16:39:27  <frosch123> how far are the distances between the stops?
16:40:23  <MNIM> not including stations, probably.
16:40:32  * MNIM removes 'probably'
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16:42:23  <FasterSoft2004> hy all
16:42:37  <MNIM> well, as an example trip, let's take den bosch-utrecht. roughly 80km (87 by car according to google maps)
16:42:52  <MNIM> with the car it takes uuuh
16:42:58  <Rubidium> given max speed near stations is 40 km/h, min station waiting time is 3 minutes and basically max supported speed is 140 km/h, and stations are generally less than 30 minutes apart you will never reach > 120 km/h average
16:43:00  <MNIM> whoops
16:43:10  <MNIM> sorry, I mean eindhoven utrecht
16:43:29  <Rubidium> the only exception could be the HSL
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16:43:32  <MNIM> by car it takes 1h20m.
16:43:41  <MNIM> by train, 50 minutes
16:44:00  <MNIM> that includes stopping in den bosch in the middle
16:44:29  <MNIM> and not with the car :P
16:44:30  <frosch123> hmm, ok, wiki says first ice (1990, hamburg-munich) had 127km/h average
16:44:43  <frosch123> and there is a lot of slow track on that line
16:44:48  <frosch123> esp. back in 1991
16:44:54  <Rubidium> actually the steam trains in the UK had (or still have?) a higher average than they have now
16:45:21  <Rubidium> frosch123: too much altbaustrecke?
16:45:24  <MNIM> so yeah, no 120 with a station in the middle, but it's going over that at some point in the voyage, that's for certain
16:45:42  <Rubidium> MNIM: yep, even the sprinters reach near 140 km/h
16:46:36  <frosch123> Rubidium: also a lot of stops, usually every 30 minutes
16:47:20  <Rubidium> Amsterdam - Maastricht: 220-ish km in 2:26
16:47:55  <frosch123> <- hmm, what might be "red"
16:48:11  <Rubidium> Schiphol - Antwerpen: 160-ish km in 0:59
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16:49:55  <frosch123> except for the 250 km/h from hanover to wÃŒrzburg, everything seems to have been 230 in 1990 between hh and m
16:50:28  <frosch123> but when i am travelling that route, it does not feel like 250 km/h all the time at all
16:50:33  <Rubidium> Tokyo - Hakata: 313 minutes, 1174 km
16:50:53  <frosch123> kassel - fulda feels more like 130
16:51:04  <frosch123> which would be half of what the map says :o
16:51:32  <frosch123> @calc 1174 / 313 * 60
16:51:32  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 225.047923323
16:53:39  <Rubidium> Shin-Yokohama (30 km from Tokyo C) to Osaka (stopping at Nagoya and Kyoto): 524 km in 134 minutes
16:53:45  <Rubidium> @calc 524/134*60
16:53:45  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 234.626865672
16:57:03  <NGC3982> MNIM: Right here, in my own personal dimension.
16:57:13  <Rubidium> @calc 622/145*60
16:57:13  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 257.379310345
16:57:29  <Rubidium> so... you're better off going from Osaka to Hakata ;)
16:58:20  <NGC3982> My where-abouts consist of a two dimensional plane, filled with flatlanders.
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16:58:39  <NGC3982> That's why i'm in the New General Catalogue.
16:58:53  <NGC3982> Thus: Diagonal bridges.
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16:59:56  <Tiktalik> I have some bus stations
16:59:59  <Tiktalik> They are making profit.
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17:01:07  <planetmaker> hello
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17:10:56  <Tiktalik> is there a way to turn your view
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17:12:02  <planetmaker> nope
17:12:14  <planetmaker> but there are transparency options. ctrl+x
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17:25:25  <Tiktalik> planetmaker: What's the red number below the loan stuff
17:26:07  <V453000> your total balance?
17:26:19  <planetmaker> would be my guess, too. If you got negative money
17:26:53  <V453000> well current money minus loan I think
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17:34:16  <Tiktalik> V453000: It keeps climbing. I do believe that is bad.
17:34:50  <V453000> :D well any climbing red numbers are usually sub-ideal
17:37:12  <frosch123> V453000: if you owe 10 million to a bank, you are in trouble. if you owe 10 billion to a bank, the bank is in trouble
17:38:49  <V453000> haha
17:43:49  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that was true only until 2008 :)
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18:37:31  <Terkhen> hello
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18:45:16  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24758 trunk/src/lang/greek.txt (2012-11-20 18:45:09 UTC)
18:45:17  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:18  <DorpsGek> greek - 2 changes by Evropi
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18:46:01  <Matulla> Hi all got a Question on refitting tracks from Elektric Rail to  Magnetic
18:46:20  <Matulla> if i only in a Depo delete the Train Head
18:46:48  <Matulla> can i  replace the  Train depo then
18:47:07  <Matulla> so i dont lose the wagon and the  running order
18:47:34  <Matulla> sorry my english on this is not very good im german
18:48:23  <peter1138> Don't think so. The wagons are rail-type specific too.
18:48:43  <Matulla> ah ok
18:49:06  <peter1138> Deleting the train head would forget all but the last train's orders too.
18:49:39  <Matulla> this is quite a job
18:50:17  <Matulla> to rebuild all the stuff  maybe a scrreenshot on the train layouts that  hit the staion will help me
18:51:13  <peter1138> I usually scrapped everything and built new trains.
18:51:47  <peter1138> With the increase in speed your fleet may need rearranging anyway.
18:51:50  <Matulla> i also  but on this track  its dificult as the trains are not one  cargo
18:51:58  <peter1138> Not to mention the curves :)
18:52:27  <Matulla> and its always a miss if you  loose  the red ribbon on the cargo to be carried so it builds up
18:53:31  <Matulla> This is quite the most far game i ever had in  the last 4 real years and 25 Game years
18:53:52  <Matulla> i usely play 2 games a Humen Year
18:53:52  <NGC3982> Curves! Blasphemy.
18:54:26  <Matulla> so by and  save your  game bevor crash
18:54:34  <peter1138> Pseudo curves
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18:55:13  <Matulla> Oh one more question  if trains got stuck or pileup on a track can i see this somwhere in the Data
18:56:28  <Pinkbeast> I tend to have the list of stations open sorted by waiting cargo value. If trains are stuck, I can see it there (because uncollected cargo piles up).
18:57:31  <Matulla> i  also  but weat and cole does not spent mutch so it is piling up  alot
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19:00:05  <Matulla> Do only small planes share  runways at internatonal  4 runways but only 2 planes at the time
19:00:58  <Matulla> lots of planes in the air  but no landings at all
19:01:39  <frosch123> there is no difference in small or large planes in the landing order
19:01:48  <frosch123> but iirc 2 runways are landing, 2 are takeoff
19:02:44  <Matulla> maybe im wrong on this but i see them  curving around the airport as all are free
19:03:48  <Matulla> ok Thanks im off By till the next session
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19:04:21  <andythenorth> really?
19:04:26  <andythenorth> the size of tiles is that important?
19:04:29  <andythenorth> and that disappointing?
19:04:34  * andythenorth has a bit of wtf
19:04:41  <Terkhen> what?
19:04:45  <NGC3982> andythenorth: Do elaborate.
19:04:50  <andythenorth>
19:05:03  <andythenorth> I should not do this :P
19:05:12  <andythenorth> it's bad community behaviour
19:07:41  <Rubidium> physical tile sizes are just meant to say: the size does not matter
19:07:46  <NGC3982> "As that topic also shows there were unresolved bugs. Adding new bugs is unacceptable, so those would have to be solved first. I don't think you understand the complexity of coding this properly."
19:08:05  <NGC3982> It's a shame that game development almost always have to deal with this.
19:10:09  <frosch123> we should do grudge matches playing ottd
19:10:16  <frosch123> if you win, you are correct
19:10:32  <NGC3982> No, if you win, you will have to code that feature.
19:10:34  <NGC3982> :D
19:10:42  <NGC3982> -win +loose. :(
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19:15:16  <frosch123> ottd would be so easy if it would be a massive multiplayer online game
19:15:43  <frosch123> every player would be one train/ship, and just route him/herself
19:16:00  <NGC3982> I have actually had some thoughts about maps being created while building them.
19:16:07  <NGC3982> For instance, areas being explored with rails, and such.
19:16:20  <NGC3982> Not being related to a serious game, of course.
19:16:22  <frosch123> i always disliked fog :p
19:16:30  <NGC3982> No, not fog per say.
19:16:41  <NGC3982> But a virtually infinite map
19:16:46  <frosch123> only day/night or whether is worse
19:16:56  <frosch123> *weather
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19:17:32  <Wolf01> efening
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19:22:44  <andythenorth> stupid mac crashed
19:23:01  <FLHerne_> andythenorth: Yay linux!
19:23:23  <FLHerne_> Unless it was a hardware thing, of course :P
19:23:31  <andythenorth> yup, linux is guaranteed bug free
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19:27:50  <Wolf01> hello Alberth
19:27:56  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
19:28:25  <FLHerne_> andythenorth: It hasn't permacrashed on me in months, except power cuts :-)
19:29:21  <frosch123> FLHerne_: just quote the ottd bug statistics
19:29:48  <frosch123> i am quite sure they are representative for linux, osx, win 9x and win 8 bugs :p
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19:40:08  * andythenorth -> pub
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19:43:55  <Wolf01> yay thunderbird 17, too bad I don't want to close the chat to let it update :P
19:44:39  <frosch123> when will they catch up with simutrans?
19:45:17  <Alberth> is that related to thybderbird 17? :)
19:45:27  <Alberth> *thunderbird
19:45:28  <frosch123> i mean wrt. version numbers
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19:46:37  <Alberth> perhaps after all translators stop translating?
19:46:51  <frosch123> simutrans is at 112
19:47:30  <Alberth> wow, how did they do that? :)
19:47:44  <Alberth> ironbite is further, isn't it?
19:48:48  <Alberth> yep, it's at 149
19:48:52  <frosch123> oh, looks like simutrans now has squirrel scripting
19:49:46  <frosch123> scenario scripting
19:49:48  <Alberth> is squirrel related to lua btw?
19:50:08  <Rubidium> somewhat-ish
19:50:12  <Alberth> I have that idea, not sure where I got it from
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19:52:49  <Wolf01> looks like I downloaded the new borderlands 2 dlc, I could leave the chat and let thunderbird update
19:54:15  <Rubidium> then do so!
19:54:46  <Wolf01> I'll do!
19:54:54  <Wolf01> good night!
19:54:57  <Rubidium> night Wolf01
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19:56:11  <Alberth> bye Wolf01
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20:00:51  <frosch123> heh, simutrans source seems to be a nice mixture of german and english :)
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20:26:17  <frosch123> so, simutrans has an api to disallow construction of certain infrastructure types in rectangular areas
20:26:25  <frosch123> is that also something for ottd?
20:27:05  <frosch123> like denying clearing/landscaping/rail/road/canal/stationtype per company per rectangle
20:27:20  <frosch123>  /industryconstruction/...
20:30:45  <Alberth> industry construction has also crossed my mind
20:31:04  <Alberth> except I had a grid (of 64x64) in mind
20:31:27  <frosch123> well, i think the api should be allowed to add any amount of rectangle
20:31:31  <frosch123> which are just merged
20:31:39  <frosch123> and stuff gets slower the more it adds :p
20:31:43  <Alberth> makes sense
20:31:55  <Alberth> could use a quad tree :p
20:32:09  <frosch123> though, it only needs checking in commands, so not so often
20:32:33  <Alberth> I also think the aggressive trying to reach the industry instance number should be fixed first
20:32:52  <Alberth> Recently I had the idea to have a 'fraction'
20:33:07  <frosch123> a what? :p
20:33:22  <Alberth> eg there is 20% water, so we should build 20% of the oilrigs
20:34:03  <Alberth> and the other way around too, 70% water -> build just 30% of the land-based industries
20:34:37  <frosch123> water/land industries is not as easy
20:34:43  <frosch123> what about fishing harbours? :)
20:35:42  <frosch123> i think if you want to reach something like those fractions you have to use some more stochasitcal approach
20:36:06  <frosch123> i.e. build a industy often if there are many places to build it
20:36:23  <frosch123> hmm... though isn't that exactly what you do not want? :p
20:37:21  <frosch123> what is the exact problem of the aggessive constrution?
20:37:30  <frosch123> too many industries too close to  each other?
20:37:34  <Alberth> I also one time experimented with buildable areas, ie on failed attempts, you mark some area as 'banned', and it will reduce the buildable are of that ind type
20:37:38  <frosch123> (but that is nice for firs farms)
20:38:19  <Alberth> s/are /area /
20:38:52  <Alberth> the most obvious problem is with default industries, where the oilrig will build in all small lakes it can find
20:40:26  <Alberth> I expect it to happen with land based industries in water-y maps as well, except for land-based industries
20:40:53  <frosch123> well, oilrigs and refineries are even only scaled by map outline, not by map area
20:41:14  <frosch123> so, esp. default oilrig should not have that problem, while newgrf oilrigs should have it
20:41:33  <Alberth> it also happens in arctic climate, if you have 1 mountain, all forests will be stuffed onto it
20:41:41  <frosch123> (though that originated from the time, when all map borders were water)
20:42:36  <frosch123> Alberth: that sounds again like a maximum industry density
20:42:46  <frosch123> like computing industry numbers per 64x64 area
20:44:04  <frosch123> maybe we should extent the "one industry per town"-setting to more values like "at most xx industries nearby eachother"
20:44:06  <Alberth> it is, for all cases I mention, I think.
20:44:06  <Alberth> In my view, the usable fraction of the map for some industry type is not taken into account, leading to this excessive clustering
20:44:11  <frosch123> though it would break firs farms :/
20:44:55  <frosch123> we could add some newgrf flag "industry is supposed to cluster"
20:45:21  <frosch123> and only do the 64x64 thingie if it is not set
20:45:28  <Alberth> T3rkhen once tried to implement max 2 oilrigs (or 3(?)) together in opengfx+industry, but it could not be expressed iirc
20:45:29  <frosch123> resp. do something reversish if it is set
20:46:29  <frosch123> i don't think you can give an exact number
20:46:44  <frosch123> but it should be possible to reduce the probability of industries spwaning nearby
20:46:51  <frosch123> i.e. the reverse of what firs farms do
20:47:16  <frosch123> but, if ottd just tries harder, that might not help either :p
20:48:02  <frosch123> so, yeah, maybe indeed only clustering is possible, and not unclustering
20:48:26  <Terkhen> Alberth: yeah, I remember not finding a way to do that
20:48:29  <Terkhen> good night :)
20:49:30  <Alberth> one of the last industry discussions with andy was about the 64x64 thingie, a newgrf (or GS) may want to define a more interesting curve of total number of industries than a mostly flat, slowly increasing line
20:50:28  <frosch123> so, we want a general gs map region interface?
20:50:39  <frosch123> for both restricting player/random constructions/destructions
20:50:50  <frosch123> and for settings probabilities of random thingies
20:51:02  <Alberth> seems like a good direction to me
20:51:07  <frosch123> then a gs could set the probability of raw industries to 0 around big towns
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20:51:17  <frosch123> and to 160% for processing
20:51:18  <frosch123> or simliar
20:51:49  <frosch123> maybe we could even support two types of areas: rectangular, and euclidian distance
20:51:51  <Alberth> the first attempt of Zvu also showed the potential for such things, imho  (where an AI build a long earth-bridge)
20:52:14  <frosch123> ah, the split scenario
20:52:26  * Alberth nods
20:57:10  <Alberth> I somewhat wonder how this works out in city builders, but I don't know enough of them.
21:11:13  <michi_cc> Industry regions could be nice for defining e.g. coal fields or ore rich areas. Would make random industry opening and closure a bit less annyoing if the replacement mine is somewhat nearby and not in opposite map corner.
21:13:00  * NGC3982 tries to start a scenario with rcon for the first time.
21:13:26  <NGC3982> -g, right?
21:14:12  <frosch123> either "rcon" or "-g" is wrong :p
21:15:43  <NGC3982> ?
21:15:52  <NGC3982> "You can also load savegames and scenarios with the -g"..
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21:17:10  <frosch123> that refers to the command line, not to ottd's rcon
21:17:14  <NGC3982> I see.
21:17:40  <NGC3982> So, how do i start a scenario with a dedicated server?
21:17:59  <frosch123> openttd -D -g bla.sav
21:18:37  <NGC3982> I see, i must use a save.
21:19:03  <frosch123> there were some issues with either -g or "load", some worked with scenarios, some not
21:19:21  <frosch123> there is a fs task about it, but cannot remember what way around
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21:20:13  <NGC3982> Ok.
21:22:01  <Rubidium> frosch123: probably the load
21:22:07  <Rubidium> as -g just loads it as savegame
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21:27:33  <NGC3982> I can't even navigate
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21:27:43  <NGC3982> CD? LS?
21:31:15  <frosch123> night
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21:31:34  <NGC3982> There we are.
21:31:38  <NGC3982> -g wasn't used at all
21:31:40  <NGC3982> ..
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22:49:27  <NGC3982> Ah, this is neat.
22:49:38  <NGC3982> Scenario > Random game.
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23:27:19  <Tiktalik> So, how do you play OpenTTD and make money
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23:28:29  <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
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23:31:45  <Tiktalik> Eddi|zuHause: What
23:32:10  <FLHerne> Tiktalik: Have you seen ?
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23:41:20  <Tiktalik> FLHerne: Do dead end bus stops have any advantages over ones that go over roads
23:42:03  <FLHerne> Tiktalik: Not particularly in most cases. They can hold several waiting buses, so if you expect some buses to sit for ages they can be handy
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23:42:27  <FLHerne> i.e. with a through bus stop, the first bus in must be the first to leave again in that direction
23:42:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Tiktalik: they don't block as fast when you use "full load"
23:43:10  <FLHerne> With a dead-end one, a bus can arrive and then depart again while another remains in a bay
23:43:53  <Supercheese> they also can filter out non-articulated vehicles, while forcing articulated ones to go to drivethrough stops
23:44:06  <Supercheese> although the utility of that is minor
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